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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:17 AM

Here's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped.


Here's video of police reportedly shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was surrounded inside the cabin.

11:50 PM EST: San Bernardino County Sheriff spokesperson Cindy Bachman said it's believed the suspected shooter's body is still inside of the burned cabin, although she refused to confirm Dorner as the shooter. Bachman also said investigators may not be able to enter the cabin until Wednesday morning because of the heat and live ammunition inside.

www.gawker.com

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Reply Here's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped. (Original post)
RetroGamer1971 Feb 2013 OP
edgineered Feb 2013 #1
BainsBane Feb 2013 #4
SleeplessinSoCal Feb 2013 #16
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #199
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damnedifIknow Feb 2013 #365

Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:23 AM

1. Commentator says "police understandably upset". WTF? A trapped rat. Surrounded.

If he was a guinea pig in a cage would they fight over who got to reach in and kill him by twisting his neck? You can't defend this level of brutality.

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Response to edgineered (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:27 AM

4. he was killing their family members

And killed cops. What did you think was going to happen? He was shooting at police all day. I'm not going to waste one moment worrying about a guy who goes around killing people. This is exactly how Dorner planned to end his life. This was obviously suicide by cop from the start.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:59 AM

16. I don't think this is what he planned. He dropped his wallet near the Mexican border

And then headed for the mountains. Had his axle not broken, he wouldn't have had to burn the truck, and they may not have known he was up there.

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Response to SleeplessinSoCal (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:38 AM

199. Tow truck driver broke the axle. n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #199)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:46 PM

371. How do we know for sure?

I think it's downright bizarre that he was camped across from the police command post. Was that pre-planned?

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Response to SleeplessinSoCal (Reply #371)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:54 PM

372. I'll admit it was second hand, but only second hand. Channel 9's commentators

mentioned it Tuesday during their coverage of the cabin at 7 Oaks as well.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #372)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:18 AM

373. I don't want to think the worst of the LAPD. I want to trust that the media gets it right.

The whole episode is like a Rorschach test.

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Response to SleeplessinSoCal (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:35 PM

273. his whole scenario was destined

to end in suicide by cop. That was obvious to me from the beginning. From all accounts, he wasn't a stupid man. He knew what he was doing.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #273)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:41 PM

366. So if a cop kills someone else's family member, then those people have the right to do

the same thing. After all, it's 'understandable' isn't it??

If they killed him in self defense, that is one thing, but, if they set out to kill him and deprive US the people, from a trial and conviction according to our judicial system which we keep pretending we are proud of, then they most definitely violated the law. And if you approve of vigilante justice by cop, then it's okay for everyone. I prefer the rule of law.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #366)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:53 PM

369. Absolutely, a trial is far beter

and murder is never justified. But, as you noted, self defense is.

My point was he does not appear to be a man who was interested in coming out of this situation alive. Shooting at police all day on the day he ending up being killed is evidence of that.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:36 AM

31. Yeah, it's not going to go down well, is it?


"You kill our family members, we do what we like".

That's not policing. That's gang shit. Unfortunate, but there you go. Whether it's an understandable reaction doesn't enter into it. The whole point of the police is that they don't just flare up when provoked but end the situation sensibly and safely. If there are police officers in that cohort directly affected by Dorner's actions, whooooee what an incredibly bad idea.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:56 AM

181. except family members who happen to be wives that are beaten by

husbands who are fellow cops. Then they rally around the abuser.

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Response to unapatriciated (Reply #181)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:07 PM

370. to whom specifically are you referring?

i hate it when people post stuff and assume everyone know the back story. coud you please post a link to a story about the cops rallying around the abuser?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:56 AM

237. We who live with the LAPD every day have LONG referred to them

as gang members with badges.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:34 PM

272. you do realize he was shooting at them all day

How do you propose they should have ended the situation sensibly and safely? He had already killed at least one person during the siege yesterday alone. You seem to believe police should be cannon fodder and that they don't have the same right to life that the rest of us do.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:44 AM

40. Vigilante justice

is not an American ideal.

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:32 PM

271. It's not vigilante justice

They are the police. He was shooting at them. if a guy with a whole slew of semiautomatic riffles starts shooting at you, by all means walk about and tell him how badly you feel about his life. Of course you won't live to tell the story.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #271)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:01 PM

278. Where in the police manual is "burning suspects alive for revenge" listed?

It's vigilante justice. They killed him out of anger. That is why the criminal justice system exists, to stop revenge killings.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #278)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:03 PM

280. You obviously have powers of clarivoyance

that I do not. I don't know the events that led to that fire. There hasn't been an investigation yet and I'm not psychic.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #280)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:50 PM

326. It was a replay of the LAPD and Patty Hearst/SLA in the 70's

Those tear gas cannisters have a long history of being used as incendiary devices by police.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #280)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:45 PM

354. Ironic, because...

that was my first thought when you posted this:

"This was obviously suicide by cop from the start"

So your not clairvoyant after all? Wow, you had me there for a minute...

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #354)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:53 PM

356. an assessment

based on seeing tons of these guys in the media. I don't know for sure, of course, but it certainly appears to be the case. Really, who actually thinks they could survive after killing cops, family members of cops, taking hostages, and shooting at cops all day long? What in that doesn't say suicide by cop? If it wasn't intentional, the guy had to be one of the stupidest people ever born. Reports don't indicate that he was a stupid person.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #356)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:26 AM

359. The guy was obviously nuts

Nuts + gun = tragedy in America

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #278)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:06 PM

281. what you mean is abuse of police power

Which it may indeed have been. It was not, however, vigilante justice. Police by definition are not vigilantes.

Merriam Webster.

vig·i·lan·te noun \ˌvi-jə-ˈlan-tē\

: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #281)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:50 PM

355. Summarily is a good word...

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #355)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:53 PM

357. like Monica Quan and his other victims

or do they not count?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #357)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:29 AM

360. Yes

Of course they count. And the cops barbarically immolated him in revenge. Problem is, revenge isn't justice.

Cops in other countries aren't quite as barbaric as in the USA. Here they have a GOD complex.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #355)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:41 PM

358. apparently not

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #271)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:22 PM

289. youre right...it's murder....

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #289)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:24 PM

291. well, next time a mass murder is on the loose

You take care of it.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:37 AM

113. Exactly right.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:10 AM

145. What do I think was going to happen?

I trial would have been good.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #145)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:13 AM

149. Yes

He could easily have been persuaded to surrender with aromatherapy.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #149)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:21 AM

150. Well, that was just silly now, wasn't it?

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #150)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:35 AM

152. Are you saying aromatherapy is no good?

In the meantime, the police could have sent for some herbal tea to be delivered to the cabin, and discussed the situation with him in a group therapy setting under the guidance of a certified holistic relationship therapist.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #152)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:41 AM

155. Yes, because all of those things are

exactly the same thing as a trial. But go ahead with your riff, you seem to be inspired and far be it from me to deny anyone their artistic mojo.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #155)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:56 AM

262. He had plenty of chances to surrender and go to trial but kept on killing people.

If he'd surrendered, he could have gone to trial. Too bad he chose not to because it used up a lot of lives, people's time, a cabin, etc.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #152)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:06 AM

158. Why not make it catnip instead? After all it is California!

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #152)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:32 AM

197. They could have ordered pizzas & stuff delivered to them for weeks...

while waiting for him to get hungry one of these days...

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Response to Amonester (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:34 AM

198. And paid rent to the owner of the cabin


Who, I'm sure, was thrilled to have a famous guest in their house.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #198)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:41 AM

201. And now must be thrilled to have their house back intact

Wait....

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Response to Amonester (Reply #201)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:51 AM

207. Insurance covers losses not rent


Dorner apparently missed the "please do not use this house as your armed holdout" note, stuck to the refrigerator with a magnet.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #207)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:08 AM

215. And he could have decided to burn it down himself after a while

in the hopes of creating a diversion so he could escape in the night (but with 'drones' or 'hellcopters' all over... unlikely...).

He could have vandalized the place to no end too, who knows. Family albums, porcelains, et al (if any).

Wrecked property one way or another.

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Response to Amonester (Reply #201)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:06 AM

214. that was pretty good.

lol. Insurance may not cover it either. Depends on their coverage I guess. If the police really did start it and not Dorner, then maybe it isn't covered. Who knows. Maybe someone with insurance knowledge can give us a guess?

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #214)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:30 AM

225. "If the police really did start it"

I somehow doubt the police requested Dorner to hole up in someone's house, as opposed to receiving his Miranda warning and being assigned a lawyer.

But you are right, there may be an exclusion here, so fuck the homeowner too. They were obligated to have Dorner as their guest.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #150)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:17 PM

284. that was his point

If Dorner had surrendered, he could have faced trial. But he didn't. He thought it better to shoot at police. He chose suicide by cop, as was clear was his plan from day 1.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #149)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:54 AM

260. Maybe if they'd included someone to clear his aura also. Don't know if just aromatherapy

would have done the whole trick.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #260)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:56 AM

261. Oh, right, it was California


Pinboy will be along any moment with a coffee enema.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #145)


Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #145)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:30 PM

270. then he should have surrendered

How many more police should have been killed trying to take him alive?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #270)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:12 PM

282. Were there solutions available that did not put police in danger, once they knew where he was?

I ask this question in all seriousness.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #282)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:14 PM

283. I don't know

I don't think anyone but the police know that as this point. It appears that Dorner was committed to fighting until the end. I just read a report in the guardian that said the police deliberately set the fire, which I would think violates their codes of conduct.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:58 PM

277. So the police burning people alive as revenge is OK with you?

Revenge is not justice, sorry. That's why we have a criminal justice system.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #277)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:02 PM

279. firstly, we don't know the precise events

this tape recounts the words of one or two policemen.
The man was shooting at police all day. He chose not to surrender. How many more cops would you have had killed trying to take him alive, against his will? Or do you propose he should have been allowed to roam free, to take other hostages and continue to kill Californians?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #279)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:32 AM

361. OK, you win

The cops can burn people alive if they deem it proper revenge.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #361)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:42 PM

362. You enjoy

refusing to think or read. Why suggest potential questions when you are far happier to turn to simplistic insults that reflect just how little you have to say.

No where did I say it was appropriate to burn people alive. NO WHERE. I said we did not know the circumstances, but you are evidently clairvoyant and no all.

The question is why do you care so little about the police and family members killed? Somewhere in your mind does the mere accident of being born to a police officer mean a person doesn't have the same right that the rest of us do? Or is it just mass murderers who write manifestos that tug on your gray cells that you hold in high esteem and therefore more worthy of life than the people then the men and women they were working so hard to kill two days ago? Why? Because police are evil and their lives, apparently, hold no value to you. Anyone who values the life of some but not others doesn't value life at all.

I still have yet to see an explanation of why you all so concerned about Dorner and not the other mass murderers who killed recently. Damn, if they'd only written manifestos.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #362)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:13 PM

367. Strawman arguments are meaningless

Nothing you just said about me has any basis in reality, you made the whole thing up.

I have no concern about Dorner or any murderer period, nor have I shown any and you know it.

Police should not execute people for revenge under any circumstances, regardless of the crime they have committed. The penal code agrees with me.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:22 PM

288. yes, we should all run out an burn to deaath people that piss us off...unf*cking believable...

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #288)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:23 PM

290. did I say that?

NO.

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Response to edgineered (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:28 AM

22. Any outrage over the cop Dorner murdered moments before this happened?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:32 AM

26. Why should we be redundant in stating the obvious?

Dorner is already labeled and hunted (and executed) as a murderer. The cops, who flat out surrounded and slayed him, will be given medals. It's all about who you kill for.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #26)


Response to cartach (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:49 AM

128. Holy shit, a psychic!

Where'd you get your amazing internet-based mind-reading abilities?

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Response to cartach (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:56 AM

171. Vigilante Justice is just fine with you. Until it's your turn as the one hunted.

See how you feel next time an LEO decides that you are guilty of a crime, and executes justice on the spot, without a trial, judge, or jury.

You must have never read the Constitution, nor respect any of the principles stated within it in any way.

Dorner was a SUSPECT until proven to be guilty of any crimes in a court of law.

The police and you found him guilty, without ever having him see his day in court, or hearing one shred of evidence.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #171)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:37 AM

173. Whose house was he in?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #173)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:41 AM

174. I'm not sure, and neither are any of the LEO's on scene.

They better hope they killed the right guy, so far they've been wrong every time they decided to shoot first in this manhunt, haven't they?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:18 PM

285. Because it isn't obvious at all

The impression I get from many responses here is that you all don't think cops' lives matter.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 AM

27. I missed the trial.

You know, the part where it was proved that HE wrote the manifesto. HE killed the cops or others.

Was it even on TV? I would have thought it would be as big as the OJ trial.

Geez, I hate it when everyone but me sees these big things!

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Response to edgineered (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:38 AM

33. Silly, trials are SLOW and BORING.


Emotional reactions are more fun.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 AM

42. +1

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Response to sibelian (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:49 AM

131. This is disgusting, but you know he could have surrendered

earlier that day to the game wardens who attempted to stop him, right?

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Response to cali (Reply #131)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:25 PM

292. so burn, mutherfucker, burn..

right? please stay off of any juries. please.

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Response to frylock (Reply #292)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

331. Not that the likes of YOU will have the guts to respond to this but

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367069

Yeah, "burn motherfucker, burn" is exactly what I said. NOT.

sick to put your words in my mouth.

Dishonest. fucked up. you're the one who should never be on a jury, pumpkin.

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Response to cali (Reply #331)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:26 PM

332. i just finished reading through that thread..

and I apologize for my previous post. I completely agree with just about everything you've stated.

again, I do apologize.

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Response to frylock (Reply #332)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:33 PM

333. thanks. I also apologize. It's just that what you accused me of is

so far from what I feel that I lost my temper.

Again, I'm sorry too.

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Response to cali (Reply #333)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:36 PM

334. this has been an emotional issue..

and it has brought out the worst in me.

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Response to edgineered (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:46 AM

43. He was shooting at them from inside that building.

No one doubts he was shooting and killing.

He got what he wanted and what he deserved.

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Response to edgineered (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:50 AM

48. I missed the "stop shooting, and get a lawyer"

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Response to edgineered (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:04 AM

239. He chose the format of his trial.


And he got what he had coming.

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Response to edgineered (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

264. No one should ever be arrested until after they've gone to trial, esp not people who hurt

other people, right? Too bad he didn't surrender and chose to go to trial.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 AM

123. Doesn't seem to be a bit of it, and note one of our "pro gun progressives"*, Union Scribe,

appears to be right in Dorner's corner.

That doesn't surprise me either - not in the least. That crowd lives in a Red Dawn fantasy-land full of enthusiastic talk about getting into a shooting war with other Americans for any number of perceived slights - the Gungeon is full of such chatter from our "pro gun progressives"**, with the Host down there nearly always rallying behind his "pro-RKBA" troops and encouraging them to keep leading that charge.

Truly disgusting stuff from the gun lobby/pro-NRA crowd.


*( )

**( )

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #123)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:57 AM

138. This could be the rallying cry for the armed revolt

 

they've been longing for.

Make sure those guns are well oiled. Better buy some extra ammo and thirty round mags.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #123)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:01 AM

165. His team of splat ball players are going to take on the US Government

Good catch

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:25 AM

2. Wow

I really don't know what to say. Many mixed feelings.

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Response to retrogal (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:42 AM

12. Agree -- I understand how they feel, but we'd like to believe our police don't

feel the emotions the rest of us do when under so much pressure.

Just a sad, sad story all around.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:27 AM

3. Just a piece of advice

This would not be a good case to cite to gain sympathy for victims of police brutality.

It would be like using Timothy McVeigh as a poster child to oppose the death penalty.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:38 AM

9. I was not.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:42 AM

38. Of course, McVeigh was a crusader for justice too

...as far as some of these folks are concerned.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:52 AM

52. Who are "these folks"?

And McVeigh, if you'll recall, was caught and put on trial. I know, that's so passe.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #52)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:58 AM

61. McVeigh was conveniently in a jail cell

McVeigh was "caught" while he was already being detained. It was very lucky.

So, Dorner was just relaxing at his cabin in Big Bear after two nice people loaned him a vehicle. Obviously napping on the couch, he didn't hear the doorbell when the police came to chat with him.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #61)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:05 AM

70. So it's luck or assassination.

Those are some pretty low standards for policing. But you haven't answered who these folks are who'd defend McVeigh.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:11 AM

81. Assassination...

So, tell me, whose cabin was Dorner in? His?

If you are wanted for murder, it's a pretty good idea to turn yourself in, because you get a free lawyer and a whole lot of other rights. Instead, if you present a danger to others like, oh, tying them up and taking their car, and shoot at people trying to apprehend you, then it's a good bet that you will be met with deadly force.

Now, go on your rant about your hero David Koresh.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #81)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:14 AM

85. You sound like a Freeper with that last line.

Seriously, you're usually above that sort of stupid comment. Are you going to say I hate America next? Tell me to love it or leave it?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:17 AM

91. How do you feel about Ruby Ridge?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #91)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 AM

98. As if that was some sort of mystery

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:25 AM

101. Do you and your buddy have something to say?

Or are you just going to toss around passive aggressive accusations like third graders?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:39 AM

116. Right?

 

Maybe this isn't actually the far left we're responding to.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #116)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:55 AM

135. Yep: "Union Scribe" has long been a far right-wing voice in the Gungeon - which is saying something

indeed, as most of the regulars down there are pretty right-wing. That he has chosen to express the batshit crazy far-Right teaparty interpretation of Dorner as a "hero" of some sort doesn't surprise me in the least.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #135)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:00 AM

141. I notice he didn't answer my question about Ruby Ridge.

 

Can't be that obvious.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #141)


Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #135)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:12 AM

148. So now Union Scribe is a right winger??



Your acusations don't hold much value after you called anyone who is pro second amendment a homophobe, a sexist and a racist.



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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #135)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:18 AM

160. i suspected it was a Gungeon type after blaming the Govt for Koresh

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:20 AM

95. Ha

It's the Freepers who are always on about Waco, Ruby Ridge, or whatever holed-up gun nut decides to make his Alamo stand.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 AM

97. Right, versus the liberal position

which is..."burn the motherfucker." Right. I guess I have a lot to learn about being a real Democrat like you guys!

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #97)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:34 AM

108. Has it ever occurred to you

That one need not decide, in a conflict, that one side is completely right and one side is completely wrong?

Dorner was a dangerous fugitive and there was probable cause to arrest him. Having taken captives and fires at police, the use of deadly force was warranted under relevant precedents.

That does not make it okay for the police to cheerlead or to fail to give him an opportunity to surrender. By the same token, it would not be advisable for them to give him an opportunity to escape absent surrender.

As a liberal, I don't simply look a news events, decide who is 100% right and good and who is 100% wrong and evil. Unfortunately, reality is not a morality play, and humans are imperfect.

Your assumption, that because I believe I the rule of law - including the relevant law in relation to the use of deadly force in the course of attempting to apprehend or obtain surrender of dangerous suspects - that I somehow condone behavior amounting to bloodlust, is a product of your own unfortunate and illiberal tendency toward a false dichotomy.

It is possible for both sides of a conflict to be wrong. But the simpleminded tend to believe that every conflict is one of right and wrong.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #108)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:38 AM

114. I have been SAYING that both sides are wrong

and arguing against the simplemindedness of those saying the cops had no choice and it doesn't matter even if they did because fuck that monster and blah blah. Dorner was a murderer, and those cops revenge-killed him. If you think I've been saying that "one side is right" then you haven't read my posts here.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #114)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:41 AM

119. Okay, so is there some great surprise in how this ended?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #119)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 AM

122. Surprise is not relevant.

I'm not surprised by all sorts of wrong shit people do. That doesn't make it any less wrong. Dorner was a monster. But we task the police with dealing with monsters without acting like them.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #122)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:47 AM

127. That is the inevitable result of dealing with monsters

From what assembly line of saints should we recruit them?

Unfortunately, we only have humans to work with.

You want to effect change in this world? How about if you learn to have a discussion without attacking the character of others.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #127)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:51 AM

132. On a last note, are you joking?

"How about if you learn to have a discussion without attacking the character of others."

You said David Koresh was my hero. Out of nowhere you said that. And you say I, not you, should stop attacking people's characters? You're a joke.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #132)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:56 AM

137. So?

Are you saying that you are justified in behaving poorly because I have?

Is that your standard of behavior?

You are allowed to be a jerk, because someone else was a jerk?

Have you ever considered joining the LAPD?

Why do you hold them to a standard of behavior to which you will not hold yourself?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #127)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:35 AM

178. ummm, have you read your own posts

You want to effect change in this world? How about if you learn to have a discussion without attacking the character of others.


Kettle-pot and all that.

What is with all of this misunderstanding? I read people saying stuff like "Dorner is a murderer, I agree, but I would rather he had been taken and had a trial" or something similar to that. Then I see a shitload of posts about how the poster is pro dorner, anti police, a freeper, and a lot of other name calling for that.

It just sounds desperate and I can't understand why. It's not as black and white as you see it.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #178)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:58 AM

182. Yes, perhaps you might consider reading them


Again, the excuse that "he's acting poorly, so I can too" is precisely the line of thinking which you and your ilk claim the is what's wrong here.

You obviously have not been reading the thread since the "freeper" accusation was directed at me.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #182)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:13 AM

185. my ilk?

Like are you 70? I didn't know. Ilk is a funny word. What was in that self deleted post?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #127)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:21 AM

193. We don't need "an assembly line of saints", apparently we just

need better recruitment/recruits and more retraining. Lowering the bar by stating "we only have humans to work with", and that "this is the inevitable result of dealing with monsters" is lazy, apathetic, and does not begin to address the issues. I may not hold out any hope that this man has a soul for redemption, or even care to try, but to lower the standards and more importantly, the public trust of the legal duty of the police and it's policies and procedures, is destructive to the society as a whole. It is much bigger than just this incident. If anything the police got right down into the gutter with an unbalanced man and for all appearances, is just as sick as the perp. They are paid police officers, supposedly professionals, with a duty. They are not unpaid volunteers without policy and procedure. Where were the higher ups??

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #193)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:02 AM

212. Thank you. I have no idea why this is such a hard point for many people to understand.

If one cannot reasonably expect mature behavior from the police, then social norms make an ugly little shift from a country ruled by law to one run as a banana republic. The apparent fact that the higher-ups haven't demanded even-keeled behavior from their troops (and the fact that the troops don't seem to be aware of how they appear to innocent citizens who now see how they can be in the line of fire) is a sickening realization indeed. Public trust is already low, and these cops have brought it even lower. The POLICE are the ones who are tasked with acting in a mature and lawful manner, even toward those who are criminal, mentally ill, etc. We don't expect people like Dorner to act rationally at the end of a spree, but we DO expect the police to.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #122)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:52 AM

162. +1 This ending has done nothing to ingratiate the police to the public it serves.

There is obviously a big problem in CA regarding the public's trust in its police force and for good reason. I don't know anyone that hasn't themselves or had a family member harassed to some degree by a police officer. Dorner obviously did some horrendous things but the fact the public was so torn about it should give the LAPD and a whole lot of other police forces something to think about.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #114)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:45 AM

125. Well then I rejoice that both sides have satisfied themselves

Dorner got what he wanted. The cops got what they wanted.

What's not to like in that?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #125)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:49 AM

130. And on that, I will have to leave you.

There is no way I can take you seriously after you posted that. "What's not to like in that?" FFS.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #130)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:01 AM

142. Well...

If Dorner got what he was after, and the cops got what they were after, then there's no sense complaining about it like someone late to a circle jerk.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #114)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:40 AM

154. you want your day in court?

don't shoot at cops when they knock on the door. Ask those guys at Waco what happens when you answer the door with gunfire, ask the idiots at Ruby Ridge, ask this nut Dorner in the cabin. It's easy man, answer the fucking door if you want your day in court. Answer it with gunfire and I don't give a shit what happens to you after that.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #108)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:32 AM

196. WOW. Well I'm sure glad you got dichotomy and illiberal together

And simpleminded, and unfortunate. Which I think in passive-aggressive terms was the whole point of your post. Too bad you had to wade through all those other nouns, verbs, etc.. But I guess we would not have been able to see how astute you are, or you think you are.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:22 AM

169. 10 years ago they were calling me a Saddam lover

Nothing has changed.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:55 PM

336. What you said

+1000000

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:28 AM

5. O M G!!!



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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:29 AM

6. They had him trapped. No need to burn him alive

That's fuking sick.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:21 AM

96. i am equally disgusted

and just last week weren't a few on here who are now defending the right to burn him out crying about drones taking out traitor american citizens in foreign countries?

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:54 AM

163. +1 nt

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:15 AM

187. They didn't want him alive.

He could talk, and Goddess knows the LAPD always has alot of secrets to keep.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:08 AM

216. Let's just hope the person burned alive was actually Dorner. nt

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:31 AM

7. Take my LAPD-- please.

 

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:31 AM

8. I think this is what they call "sending a message", or "setting an example"

That will be on every TV in America to see, just in case anyone else is
contemplating "following in Dorner's footsteps".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:38 AM

10. Stupid asses are sending the message that to be a successful terrorist, avoid this example.

Or set someone up.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:39 AM

11. if someone needs "a message"

to figure out killing cops and their kids is going to get him killed, he doesn't have a functioning brain to begin with. Dorner knew what would happen to him. He planned it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 AM

23. No, I think this is what they call


having a great big "I'm not scared anymore" emotional reaction and totally flipping out like a crowd of adolescent fools with a great big "woohoo" because, hey, why not?

We can probably happily assume that the last thing on their minds was sending "messages".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:52 AM

53. And what footsteps would those be?

Please elaborate on the behavior you believe this is intended to deter.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:47 PM

295. Listen

My post speaks for itself.

I'm not looking for a big dust-up right now,
and your question kind of feels like you are,
and I'm not into it.

If my post isn't clear to you, feel free to make
up your own mind about what it means.

thanks.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:06 AM

72. In a way you are right...

but in the reverse. It will bring out more, and more, and more.... it's not a deterrent it's the instigator.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #72)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:12 AM

82. Bring out more what?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #82)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:15 AM

86. Use your imagination.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #86)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 AM

99. Leftist Tim McVeighs?

 

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #72)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:51 PM

296. hmm ... you have a point, as in unintended consequences

esp. given this news today of the NRA handing out flyers calling
for an armed revolution.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022366344

Rather like the drone strikes creating 30 new terrorists for every
one killed.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 AM

13. They probably want pieces of his body for a memento

like in the olden days.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 AM

14. If possible they should have taken him alive

and put him on trial. Maybe it wasn't possible to take him alive, I don't know.

Nobody should applaud the cops serving as judge, jury, and executioner. I'm wondering how many people who are glad Dorner was killed by the cops (if that is indeed what's happened) also support capital punishment.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:56 AM

15. Apparently too many. I too missed the trial.

You know, the part of the circus where it is proved that he wrote the manifesto. The part where it is proved he did the killing.

It's easy to miss these things with the news cycles being so quick. Maybe a DU'er here has a link, and I ask for a DU'er because both the OP's and the responses that I've been seeing seem to be coming from some very hateful people with the will to bypass what I believed to be our justice system.

Oh well, I'm probably wrong again. Let's just agree that the LAPD did what they had to, and forget about it. No one would have wanted to sit through another OJ-like trial anyway, you know how boring it is having to prove things.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:09 AM

18. I'm glad he's dead and don't support capital punishment

The two hardly go hand in hand. Dorner was a very serious danger, had killed numerous people, refused to surrender, and I'm not seeing any other way to neutralize him than what was done. He already took out two officers during the fire fight at the cabin, and I have ZERO sympathy for him being killed in order to prevent him from hurting anyone else.

With capital punishment the person is already caught and contained. It's nothing more than revenge killing which is ENTIRELY different than killing someone who is CURRENTLY doing their level best to kill others and succeeding at it.

Dorner never had any intention of surrendering. He was either going to go out by suicide by cop or kill himself. Yes, I'm glad that he's dead and can harm no other people seeing that it was DORNER himself who made the choice to kill other people and keep doing it until he was killed himself. Good riddance to the foul sack of murderous shit.

I truly do not understand the sympathy for this disgusting murderer.




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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:20 AM

21. Perhaps the next time the opportunity comes around

you can change your name to "TorchTheSuspect"

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:31 AM

25. Perhaps you can change your name to "IHateCops".

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:34 AM

29. How clever.

What are you doing here when SNL is probably looking for such wit?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:13 AM

219. Considering all they did was do what you did

I think you're condemning yourself with your own words or do you think that you're the first person to ever come up with mocking somebody else's name/nick?

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:41 AM

35. I guess it would save plenty of taxpayer money if we simply executed suspected cop-killers on sight

Doesn't sound like they even tried to take him alive. They could have waited him out.

I guess we could just start shooting every cop-killer and suspected murderer on sight, rather than trying to take them alive. Who knows how many lives would be saved, and how much taxpayer money would be saved if we could just avoid having to go to trial, then incarcerate them afterwards.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:49 AM

47. He had the chance to surrender. He shot at them instead.

So, killing him was perfectly reasonable if it meant not risking anyone else's life to apprehend him.

Suicide by cop.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:55 AM

58. waited him out while he continued to shoot at them???

Because that's exactly what he was doing while trapped in that cabin, and one officer was killed and another shot who hopefully will survive. How many other officers would you be wiling to sacrifice to this murderous shit by "waiting him out" particularly when "waiting him out" would likely result in his killing more people but also having the opportunity to escape and go on killing ever more people?


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:55 AM

209. You know, it is possible to wait somebody out without placing lives in danger

They could have cordoned off the area and kept themselves out of the line of fire - something that I would hope any decent commander would know how to do.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #209)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:23 AM

223. You've been watching too many 60 minute

crime shows on T.V. How would you suggest that a large number of LE personnel (and firefighters, paramedics, and other ancillary people) "keep themselves out of the line of fire" over any protracted period? This clown was obviously a very good shot. Why would any responsible police commander continue to let the guy conduct target practice while 'waiting him out' and possibly losing another life?

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #223)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:28 AM

224. Seems pretty damned simple to me

The area appears to be pretty wooded. Why not fall back a certain distance, set up a perimeter, barricades, etc? Nobody's suggesting LEO's walk around presenting themselves as targets, but there ARE ways to reduce the risk.

No, these cops WANTED to burn him out. You can tell just from listening to the recordings.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #224)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

322. For how long and to what end?

Do you know what sort of supplies and provisions he had access to in that cabin? I don't, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that there were sufficient provisions there for him to hunker down for a pretty long period. So how long are the authorities supposed to maintain a "cordoned off area" (one that they can safely set up without being picked off sniper style while doing so?) And for what purpose? Assuming that they could have done so, here are the possibilities from "waiting him out."

He has the opportunity to booby trap the cabin
He has more opportunities to shoot at those maintaining the cordon.
He has more opportunities to escape, particularly at night.

And in the end, if you wait him out and let him dictate what happens, you have the possibility that he will peacefully surrender, although there is zero evidence that he would ever do that and considerable evidence that if he exited that cabin it would be in a hail of gunfire. So the most likely outcome is that he dies. Violently. Or maybe he kills himself, which may well be what actually happened.

So the question is, given those possibilities, how do you minimize the risk that he will harm others? And that's to take the fight to him rather than hang back. I have no problem with that strategy.

As for exactly how it played out, there seem to be a number of posters who think that they know exactly what happened inside and outside that cabin. The only think I know for certain is that none of those posters actually know exactly what happened. I doubt anyone will ever know exactly what happened, although I'm sure there will some here that claim that they know.

Finally, I have no more problem with his being killed by the police than I have with the police killing Charles Whitman on the top of the tower at the University of Texas or with Brian Murphy, honored at last night's state of the union address, shooting to kill the sikh temple shooter in Wisconsin (and yes I know that after being wounded by Kelly the shooter blew his own brains out) or with the police shooting Timothy Dale Johnson, who was identified as the man who shot and killed Arkansas Democratic Party Chairman Bill Gwatney in 2008. The fact that the sikh shooter or Whitman or Johnson didn't get trials (because the either died by their own hand or by the actions of law enforcement) does not bother me at all. Do I regard them as murderers even though they never stood trial for their acts? Damn straight.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #224)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:00 PM

323. You're making a bunch of unjustified assumptions.

If you "fall back" far enough to protect every Tom, Dick and Harry on scene you don't have a decent perimeter. And while LEO and other personnel don't 'walk around presenting themselves as targets', human nature being what it is prevails and sooner or later someone forgets and pops up or makes a handy target of himself. If you're dealing with a trained marksman like Dorner, the result of that is another dead cop.

The fact that cops had their adrenaline going and were cheering on the result doesn't mean that they PLANNED to burn him out or deliberately took measures to do so. The behavior may be reprehensible but hardly indicative of anything. People say all kinds of shit in tense situations that they would never otherwise have done.

You've already made up your mind based on hypotheticals designed to fit your preordained scenario. I don't believe the evidence supports that hypothetical.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:09 AM

77. You got that right ! [EOM]

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:34 AM

109. this is not about sympathy for me

as much as it is about humanity and always having the integrity to do not only the right thing - but the better thing. dorner did some terrible things and yes, he was f'd up in his head. but, now, lapd will not be held accountable for their own misdeeds and we will never hear from dorner, now, will we?

it is sad and tragic and i am sorry for the loss of the officers and their families. and now, there is no chance and no opportunity to know the whole truth. and that is equally tragic.

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Response to hopemountain (Reply #109)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:07 AM

184. +1

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:39 PM

341. I got this crazy attachment to the Magna Carta

The Constitution, and the archaic sense of not guilty until proven...

But hey, I'm old fashioned that way.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:39 AM

34. +1

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 AM

17. Is summary execution by police covered in the Constitution?

I must have missed it. No matter how brutal Dorner or people like him are, attempted summary executions should not be tolerated by a civilized society.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:52 AM

51. It's not a summary execution when someone is shooting at cops and they shoot back.

He murdered four people, and the police made sure he didn't get one for the thumb.

He had his chance to surrender and instead shot two wildlife wardens and murdered another cop and tried to murder those who surrounded him.

He got exactly what he was asking for.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #51)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:13 AM

83. Here's the problem I have

The 3 people that were shot at by cops, especially the ladies who were delivering newspapers. What did they do wrong? They weren't shooting at cops. They didn't murder anybody. The didn't kill any officers. Yet cops fired over 40 bullets at their vehicle in an attempt to kill. The cops thought it was Dorner and they decided to fire away.

This is what happens when cops have a summary execution mentality. Mistakes can be made and innocent people can be killed.

Again, summary executions should not be tolerated. Now, to your point I think we need more details about what went down at the cabin, but what we don't need are trigger-happy cops.

If he was firing at officers, then they should fire back. I agree with that.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:17 AM

90. We definitely need more facts on what happened.

But unless the voice on that YouTube is a high ranking cop instead of some traumatized grunt getting shot at and yelling in the heat ofa battle, it doesn't prove anything.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #90)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:19 AM

94. Agree

Let's wait on more details. Knowing how crazy Dorner is, he probably was firing at cops. If that was the case, cops should take him out. No question about that.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:33 PM

293. That's exactly how I feel

"This is what happens when cops have a summary execution mentality. Mistakes can be made and innocent people can be killed."

I have ZERO sympathy for Dorner. In my opinion, he killed two innocent people just to "get even" with Mr. Quan. That's the epitome of evil.

However, that doesn't give LE an excuse to shoot up any truck that just looks like the one Dorner was driving.

I was watching the live feed yesterday. When some newscaster mentioned LE was considering the use of tear gas or "flash-bang" devices, I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, that LE had decided to torch the cabin. That cabin was owned by someone who had nothing to do with Dorner's murderous rampage. That cabin was also in the middle of a forest. I was really concerned about the possibility of a wildfire. I don't know if that area is in a drought, but in my part of the country, conditions are so dry that a single discarded cigarette can start a massive fire. Had they lost control of that fire, a lot more LEOs, firefighters, and innocent people could have been injured or killed.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #51)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:52 AM

208. Except that's not what we're talking about!

It's not just a matter of cops shooting back at a suspect who is shooting at them.

We have recordings of cops saying "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" - suggesting they deliberately set fire to the cabin he was in. That's a far cry from simply shooting back.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #208)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:43 AM

233. They used tear gas cannisters which caused the fire.

They smoked him out, and he chose to cap himself instead of running out.

There was no way this was going to end with him alive. He made certain of that.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #233)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:08 AM

245. I'd like to see "tear gas" canisters investigated a bit.

It seems like they are used, more and more, quite intentionally as INCENDIARY DEVICES.

I have a problem with that. I would hope that every other civilized human being would, too.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #245)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:07 PM

267. Meh. In this case, I don't blame them for using overwhelming force.

There was zero reason to fuck around with this guy. Wait until night and he could slip away. Best case scenario was going to be this guy dying either by his own hand (which seems to have happened) or by police bullets, with no one else injured. Worst case would have been a lot worse.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:56 PM

337. That is not what it was

And you well know it.

All he had to do was say he'd surrender peacefully. He said the opposite.

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Response to treestar (Reply #337)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:02 PM

338. Did the women delivering newspapers surrender peacefully?

Or were they firing at officers? Because for the life of me I can't figure out why officers pumped 40 bullets into the truck. Did they think it was Dorner? Yes. Were the officers trying to administer a summary execution? Yes.

That should NOT be tolerated.

Ever.

Hopefully the women get a nice fat check.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #338)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:09 PM

363. They are not trying to do a summary execution

A fugitive from justice is not someone we can all wait around for until they settle down and decide they are ready for a trial. They have to be dealt with before they kill more people. Many intend to go out in a hail of bullets - suicide by cop. They know that.

Why do the police have to wait around and risk their lives and the lives of others when there are people like this out there?

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Response to treestar (Reply #363)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:12 PM

364. Again, if they weren't trying to do a summary execution

Why did the cops fire 40+ bullets at the women when they THOUGHT it was Dorner? What did the women do to invite that kind of deadly fire?

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Response to treestar (Reply #337)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:43 PM

343. Those two women were shot

Not one order issued.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:17 AM

19. Are we all clear on this?

 

Cal Fire News ‏@CalFireNews

Are we all clear on this?:The man #Dorner was assumed guilty, tried by law enforcement, cornered & purposely burned alive?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:34 AM

30. Are we clear on this?

 

He killed one of them moments before he was killed.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:37 AM

32. Yeah, because they weren't trying to kill him before that

and haphazardly shooting at the wrong people and vehicles. Your heroes.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:42 AM

37. Ah, he was murdering their families.

 

The far left is as crazy as the Tea Party.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:46 AM

44. There are indeed some Tea Party sentiments in this thread

but I don't think they're what you imagine. I'm more inclined to associate the RW with approving of ultra-authoritarianism to the extent of revenge-killing.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 AM

56. True that.

 

I also associate that the far right with a fanatical paranoia and hatred of the government and law enforcement.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:56 AM

59. Yes. And if you think that's what's going on here,

then your imagination is running away with you. Liberals typically express disgust at government and law enforcement running amok, like say screaming that you're going to burn a motherfucker for what he's done, and then doing it, as an officer of the "law".

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:52 AM

134. Your ultimate PPR here on DU is going to be a sweet thing to witness. Simply disgusting post.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:26 AM

194. yes

it would seem that the far right would be the "burn the fucker alive, he don't deserve a trial" crowd.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #194)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 AM

204. No, they shouldn't have set out to burn him alive.

 

What was missing from this thread is that he was murdering them.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #204)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:14 AM

221. It may be missing from this thread

though I doubt it. But they knew they could very easily wait him out. He had limited supplies by this time. Limited ammo. Limited food if any.

They could have just waited. If that had been 4 civilian latino women in a truck instead of cops, who he had killed, he would not have died by fire.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #221)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:29 AM

255. You're probably right.

 

Cops aren't known for being calm when you go after one of them.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #204)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:44 PM

294. no fucking shit?

everyone knows that, Edward R. Murrow.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:49 PM

335. Really? 'Cause normally it's the Tea Party that advocates vigilante justice

and a hang 'em high attitude. The DU'ers here are advocating for a trial and rule of law.

So who really sounds like the Tea Party here? Hint: it's you.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:53 AM

54. Yeah, those fish and game wardens are some scary dudes.

He was a murdering pig who got stuck before he could murder again. He died with a small arsenal at his side.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:09 AM

167. They are separate issues...

 

The folks who were shot at by mistake likely deserve a hefty settlement.

Dorner had quite literally just killed people before he hunkered down. Even in wackjob idiot land,if you are falsely accused, you surrender to custody and have your day in court. If he truly cared about showing corruption or whatever, then he would have surrendered and shouted out dirt for the world to see.

Fuck Dorner and anyone who supports him...



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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:43 AM

39. And they killed innocent people in pursuit of him.

So they should arrest him and let him have a trial. That's how it's supposed to work. The police dept. is not the judicial system.

Are we clear on this?

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Response to cui bono (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:51 AM

49. Wounded.

 

I'm not condoning that. Shooting up the wrong car they deserve to be criticized for. Taking him out while he was taking them out? I have no problem with that.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

188. Criticized for?

I criticize you, LAPD, for shooting gang style that truck of the wrong make, model and color with two elderly women in it. That was a really bad thing that you did. Now go about your day. You don't think, perhaps, that a strong criticism might be in order here? Perhaps even a strongly worded letter? Christ, and we wonder how the LAPD became the monsters that they are when there is absolutely no demand for accountability of their daily atrocities. Those cops belong in jail and those women should own the LAPD. Silly me for thinking that actions should have consequences.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:28 AM

195. they should be fired for that

FIRED and sued, not criticized.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #195)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:40 AM

200. I agree.

 

I'm not defending the LAPD at all. They've acted like out of control maniacs.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:02 AM

213. I didn't mean to sound adversary.

I think we pretty much agree on this topic.

It's just that it angers me so I write with crap in my words. lol

sorry bout that.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #213)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:09 AM

217. No need to apologize.

 

I've been more than critical of others in this thread.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:20 AM

192. Well, it's technically a gang

If you snitch on our gang, we'll hunt you down and burn you alive on television.

And we'll gladly shoot women and children along the way to get to you.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:18 AM

20. Here is another video from a police scanner



It is pretty fucking conclusive the cops intended to burn the cabin down and then lie about it.

Fucking disgraceful.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:01 PM

302. Sadly, I think you're correct. nt

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:31 AM

24. There are plenty here on DU who echo those exact sentiments

Just peruse some of the Dorner-cabin-on-fire threads, you'll see a contingent of DUers practically celebrating the fact that the police torched the place.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 AM

28. Heart-breaking to be reading such inhumane bullshit on DU. Things sure have changed.

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 AM

55. +1

Yup, seeing much hatred. Can't respond to 'em all, but doing the best I can for true du'ers. nt

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Response to edgineered (Reply #55)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:19 AM

222. It takes too much energy to argue with people that have no compassion. It's like arguing with

my family all over again, and they are/were hard core reich-wingers.

Thanks for trying, edgineered! Don't frustrate yourself too much, not worth it.

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:44 PM

274. Justice is not in fashion here these days.

Extrajudicial killings via drone or PD -- it's all good for DU denizens.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:55 AM

57. Just like there are those who think that a guy who's been shooting at cops all day

with sometimes fatal results should be captured using water pistols and Hello Kitty stickers.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:49 AM

206. Pure fucking bullshit.

Show me one single post that suggested he be treated with kid gloves. Show me one single post that suggested anything that you claim.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #206)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:41 AM

231. People are complaining because the police used burners, which are tear gas rounds. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:57 PM

298. feel free to link to such sentiment..

bet you a thou that you can't.

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Response to frylock (Reply #298)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:00 PM

300. How did people expect the police to take down an armed, trained killer

whose sole goal was to kill as many cops as possible?

People are objecting to the use of tear gas cannisters, which were the cause of the fire.

How much risk should the police on the ground there have been subjected to in order to attempt to take a shooter alive who was determined to die rather than be captured?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #300)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:02 PM

303. this isn't about the shooting for fuck's sake..

it's the burn the mutherfucker out we're talking about. read. the. fucking. header.

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Response to frylock (Reply #303)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:03 PM

306. Yes, some random schmuck getting SHOT AT uttered an intemperate

phrase.

Note that "burn the motherfucker" was not an order, but rather the excited chatter of someone being SHOT AT.

But the FTP crowd has no problem condemning police for using impolite language while getting SHOT AT.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

190. The most fervent cop bootlickers and uniform worshippers are calling themselves liberal

What a fucking joke.

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Response to jsr (Reply #190)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:09 PM

314. word up

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:52 PM

297. they're all up in here too..

of course expressing your dismay at the cop's professional demeanor, or lack thereof automatically means that you side with dorner. more black/white authoritarian bullshit.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:42 AM

36. Really? We're upset by this?

 

What did you expect them to say about this asshole? "Oh, we must go save this poor man, he hasn't had a trial! He may not be in his right mind and besides, it's morally wrong to be happy about someone dying!"

Fuck no. He was a piece of shit killer of innocents that got just what he asked for. Kill my people and see what I say about you as you burn.

That's the real world.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 AM

41. This thread is nuts.

 

It's like an SLA forum.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:49 AM

45. Yes, I expect them to be cops. Not vigilante killers.

Your "real world" sounds like a third world junta.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:57 AM

60. He was shooting at them. That means they get to shoot his ass.

Welcome to the real world. You don't get to shoot at cops and then use due process as a magic shield to prevent them from shooting back.
He chose this by shooting instead of surrendering.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:01 AM

64. You talk like a pulp novel cop.

And you seem awfully certain of the circumstances, even moreso than the authorities are yet. I mean we get it, okay? You assume if they killed him it was their only choice, despite the very clear evidence of them saying they were going in to kill him.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #64)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 AM

69. They had the right to shoot him after he refused to surrender at shot at them instead.

Maybe they could have risked their lives to capture him alive, but he wasn't worth it.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:08 AM

75. Are you just hitting "paste" at this point?

You argue in a strange shock and awe style. It doesn't make it any more reflective of what happened. They jumped right to option: "burn the motherfucker." You can continue to pretend they had no other option, and the evidence will continue to show it was a planned killing.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:11 AM

80. Funny how those who have been screaming DUE PROCESS at anyone who

proclaimed Dorner a dangerous murderer have no compunction about declaring the cops guilty of murder based on a fucking YouTube.

Sympathies are clear.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #80)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:16 AM

88. They're all murderers.

Dorner and the ones who stated they'd burn him and proceeded to do so. One is no better than the other, but the cops will get awards for their acts.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #88)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:27 AM

105. Whose voice is on that tape?

Please provide a name and rank within the police department.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:34 AM

107. Who gives a shit?

You think it's okay for anyone representing the law to act like that? And you think DORNER set the fire after two videos of cops talking about burning him? You know, you can play all these stupid little games trying to score points on an internet board but that's not what this is about. And once again you cannot escape the problems with these cops' actions. They aren't coming out of this heroes in the public's eyes no matter what angles you play here.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #107)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:39 AM

115. Well, if it's not the voice of the person who was giving orders at the scene, it means

your precious little audio tape has zero probative value. If it's just some random schmiuck ranting because he's getting shot at, it proves nothing.

You see, in order for that tape to be evidence, you'd need to connect the speaker to the actual orders that lead to the fire.

Do you deny that it's possible that a tear gas cannister or stun grenade could have caused the fire?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #115)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:41 AM

118. Yes I do, based on this other video:

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #118)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 AM

139. Burners are incendiary tear gas cannisters. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #139)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:17 AM

159. You're ruining the "fun." A conspiracy is the desired outcome, here, facts be damned. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:01 PM

301. you think it was dorner or a civilian saying that?

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Response to frylock (Reply #301)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

308. I think it was one of the first cops on the scene, not the person who

had operational control and who made the decision on how the assault on the cabin would go down.

You know, the people at whom he was shooting.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #308)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:06 PM

309. yep. the same cop that is pulling people over for speeding..

or not using a turn signal. or confronting a homeless guy sleeping at the bus stop. same cop, same attitude.

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Response to frylock (Reply #309)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:09 PM

313. In other words, your argument is "fuck the police."

Context doesn't really matter--you're willing to condemn a guy who has bullets flying at him for using coarse and angry language.

Bottom line is that you're incapable of empathizing with any cop as a human being--even one in fear for his life.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #313)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:10 PM

315. yeah, i hate all cops, including my uncle and my cousin..

I just hate those guys.

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Response to frylock (Reply #315)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:11 PM

318. Only because they haven't uttered something that offended

your delicate sensibilities while getting shot at.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:04 PM

265. What other options did they have? Not snarking but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Thank you.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:58 PM

299. this isn't about the shooting. read the fucking header..

burn mutherfucker. we're relying on these people to protect and serve? for fucking real?!

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Response to frylock (Reply #299)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:02 PM

304. Well, next time you have someone shooting at you at your workplace,

I'm sure you'll respond with the Queen's English.

"I say, that fellow over there is being most discourteous."

Yeah, if I had someone shooting at me, I'd probably yell something like "kill the fucker."

Note that the guys shouting "burn him" were not the ones giving orders, unless you have knowledge to the contrary.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #304)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

307. i'm not a professional law enforcement officer..

and if you think this shit is limited to and exclusive to cop killers, and not people jay walking, pan handling, or engaging in any other minor infraction, then you're sadly fucking mistaken.

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Response to frylock (Reply #307)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:06 PM

311. So, you're outraged that cops getting shot at used angry language

regarding the person shooting at them.

Because, I mean, how unprofessional of them to get freaked out while having bullets flying at them.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #311)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:08 PM

312. burn the mutherfucker out is a far cry..

from using angry language. but i'm done here with you. i'll let someone else take it from here, because you don't get it and never will.

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Response to frylock (Reply #312)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:10 PM

316. Yeah, it's really childish whining to condemn the language of someone

being shot at and who will likely suffer PTSD as a result.

Because, you know, fuckthepolice. Not like cops are human beings or anything.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #316)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:11 PM

317. bbye

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:09 AM

78. +1

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:51 AM

50. Gee and I thought...

Police officers shall conduct themselves, whether on or off duty, in accordance with the Constitution of the United States, the California Constitution, and all applicable laws, ordinances and rules enacted or established pursuant to legal authority.

They are supposed to behave as professionals not just when they are marching in parades.

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:58 AM

62. Is there a constitutional right to shoot cops and at cops without

them shooting back?

He waived the due process rights he shot his guns instead of surrendering.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:02 AM

65. Just because Dorner was a bad guy doesnt automatically make the cops the good guys

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #65)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:03 AM

66. No, but they had every right to shoot his ass. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:03 AM

67. They didn't just shoot back, they burned him alive.

After saying they'd do it, they did it. You're cool with that. Again, we get it.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:06 AM

73. Gee, because of a YouTube you know EXACTLY what happened.

You know he died from the fire instead of from a bullet wound from their guns or his.

You've already convicted the cops after bleating about how it was unfair to prejudge him a killer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:10 AM

79. You can't have it both ways.

He was either dead from gunfire and was NOT shooting back at them, in which case burning him was unnecessary OR they burned him alive. Either way, it was obviously the plan.

And I have not, ever, said he wasn't a killer or that they shouldn't assume he was. Not once.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #79)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:15 AM

87. Police used flash grenades and/or tear gas.

Both of which can start a fire.

Or he could have set the fire himself as a diversion, only to be cornered and shoot himself.

Also, was the person speaking on that YouTube the police captain who made the decision as to how to proceed, or just some random cop shouting shit in the heat of battle?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #87)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:17 AM

89. Yeah, that's how the FBI swept Waco under the rug

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:24 AM

100. Oy, that's militiaspeak. The Branch Davidians started that fire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisource/en/f/f6/Danforthreport-wetherington.pdf

But I trust your sources at Free Republic state otherwise.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #100)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:35 AM

110. That's right...bashing the police and the FBI makes me a right-winger

I forgot it's against the rules at DU to question authority.

My bad.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #110)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:36 AM

111. No, repeating rightwing militia talking points on the cause célèbre of

the McVeigh crowd might, though.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #100)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:42 AM

121. Like moths to the flame

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #121)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:59 AM

140. Waaa waaa. Nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #87)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:18 AM

92. Or maybe the fire was a total coincidence!

Weird how that happened. Bloody hell.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:26 AM

102. Whose voice is on your smoking gun YouTube?

What was his rank? What position of authority did he have? Was he the one whomhad operational command of police at the site? When did he make that comment relative to the actual fire?

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:58 AM

63. And a sick world it is.

Humanity... a virus.

An Animal is part of the structure of the planet; it takes what it needs and gives back what is left to be part of life again. A virus feeds on it's host, uses it to regenerate and continues to feed on that host till the host dies. Then the virus dies.

We are either part of the answer or we are our own killers.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #63)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:26 AM

176. Unscientific

Animals will extract everything they can from a resource and leave it dead just like humans. They have no special wisdom in the matter. They're just generally not organized enough to create a society that encourages and maintains very large numbers of conspecifics

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Response to Shivering Jemmy (Reply #176)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:01 PM

327. I'm not speaking of individual animals or individual viruses,

or even of science. I'm speaking in a philosophical sense of ecological balance on the planet, the parts that equalize and those that destroy. In the long view, it's the earth itself that ultimately "decides" the fate of it's constituents animal or not, but in the mean time there is the question where we fit in the schema as we go about our daily destructive habits and I claim that we are more like a virus in the wild than an animal in its habitat.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:03 AM

68. "Kill my people and see what I say about you as you burn."


Right. So, Mafia, basically?

Not on board with that. Sorry.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:09 AM

76. +1

Fuck this murdering fucktard. May he rot in hell.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:26 AM

103. Welcome to America. Due process is the law here.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:49 AM

46. Great way to destroy evidence.

The longer it takes to burn, the less evidence to support a cause and effect.

Hmmm. Justice or revenge? Reason or madness? Fact or fiction? Civil or uncivilized?

We may never know.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:07 AM

74. This thread wouldn't be complete without the conspiracy theories.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:18 AM

93. I blame Obama


It was a blitzkrieg set-up for the State of the Union. Yeah, that's the ticket. You see, the "false flag" drama sucked in a huge audience and then, boom, he gets o do a speech without any critical commentary because the news is all jammed up right before he starts. And then when he's done, everyone wants to know what happened to Dorner in the cabin.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:27 AM

104. Didn't you know?

 

Obama set up Dorner so he could give his surveillance network a test run.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:36 AM

112. I'm trying to figure out...

Is it Larouchies, Birchers, or some sort of long lost family of love children of the two?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #112)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:41 AM

120. Wondering the same thing.

 

And I'm on pain medication for a toothache. Bizarre bizarre.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:10 AM

146. he was testing the drones he plans to use on Assange and others who are speakingout

against tyranny or something like that.

it all makes sense now.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:48 AM

180. If you live in a world where the police are corrupt

beat the poor, and work for something other than the people, you are going to have a hard time with people just believing what they say at face value.

It is right to question everything the LAPD does. Apparently they do not understand who they are suppose to help.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #180)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:45 AM

205. All government and police should always be questioned.

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #205)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:59 AM

211. Yes

sadly. In some places they have been trying to stop any photographing of the police. I think video of the police should be mandatory. All cars with cameras on. Anytime someone sees an injustice they should be able to photo it. Any police caught abusing the people should be immediately fired. Period! Just fn period!

It is so much worse for a police officer to betray the public than say just someone betraying the public. They are suppose to be who you turn to for help.

The police are suppose to be in a position of authority, yes. They should be respected and trusted. They are who you should be able to turn to for almost any kind of help. But apparently and increasingly, they are not earning these respects. We want to honor them. We want to respect them. We need to trust them. And we can't.

It's getting scary out there!

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:13 AM

84. How dare you ask questions!

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:07 PM

268. If there were any "evidence" there, he would not have made it plain

that he wanted to burn.

Take off the tin-foil hat please.

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Response to EastTennesseeDem (Reply #268)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

330. I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

really.

There is always a huge amount of evidence and information at a crime scene that corroborates statements and positions. Burn it up without trying to save it and no one will ever conclusively know without doubt whether we know the truth or just have to take someone's word.

That's the way to separate reality from myth. No tin hats here.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:33 AM

106. What puts the lie to the LAPD defense is...

the way they shot up unarmed "suspects" in two other vehicles. For me, that's absolute proof that they had no intention of ever giving him a trial, this was an execution by police. I'm not ok with that, and neither should anyone else be.

And I'd really appreciate it if people would quit conflating condemnation of over-zealous police with defense of Dorner. In case it's not obvious enough, I am not defending Dorner, not in any way.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:40 AM

117. You will be accused of it anyway, but you're right.

Shit I've just in this thread been accused not only of siding with Dorner but somehow with Tim McVeigh and David Koresh and probably Hitler as well.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 AM

124. you give the LAPD too much credit, that was about incompetence and fear, how does shooting up

the wrong vehicle with innocent people help their case ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:58 AM

157. hubris, they don't have to care

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Response to JI7 (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:25 AM

172. OK, I thought this through a little

and I get the fear thing. The incompetence is there regardless of whether they went out to kill him or not, the wrongly identified vehicles that they shot up at least prove that. And their fear probably was at least part of why they went ballistic. I don't know whether the officers involved jumped the gun, or if there was a mission directive to kill (I hope we eventually find outm or if someone knows, post it here). If I think there was revenge or bloodlust contributing to the lethal force (and I do), that's a supposition on my part, though the video in the OP might back up that line of thinking.

Even if it had been him in those vehicles, they should have had to do due diligence not only to verify it was him, but also that their only choice was to kill him. It doesn't look to me like they did that.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:30 AM

226. Don't forget, they shot up TWO wrong vehicles--one with 2 little Latinas, one with a skinny white

surfer guy.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:56 AM

136. + 100 n/t

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:57 AM

156. +1

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:04 AM

166. +1 And per the Los Angeles area talk shows,

it seems an awful lot of Californians agree with you too.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:42 AM

203. They wanted him dead ASAP

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:47 AM

126. Sandy Hook type Conspiracy Theorists on DU

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Response to JI7 (Reply #126)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:11 AM

147. Wait until they start using drones to make chemtrails!

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:49 AM

129. Antecedents, Behavior, And Consequences

When this guy Allegedly murders the Daughter of the guy who unsuccessfully defended you in an early dismissal hearing you crossing a line. I dont excuse his actions-they are sickening. When he shots 2 police officers it was troubling. When he kidnaps a couple and stays in their house it ok right? Or when he shoots one park ranger and kills the other thats acceptable. He was carrying around A 50 caliber sniper rifle. If he does all that and expect stay well is unrealistic.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:51 AM

133. We really need to know what happened here

I have no sympathy for the murderer but there is a question of process. Right now it appears that they torched the place in order to avoid having to wait it out. On the other hand I don't think he planned to come out alive or he would have surrendered (I'm assuming they gave him that chance, but it's unclear). So people probably say "what's the difference?" Burn him or shoot him. Burning him seemed safer and more expedient obviously.

I agree with those who say this is not how these things should be handled, but when you have a guy with a high-powered rifle that can control an area for a mile or more...possibly for days...still the fire bombing method used is like what they do in a war zone. Not a great precedent. I wonder if this will stimulate weapons sales even more...

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:09 AM

144. "Wait it out"

They weren't going to let it get dark.

Unlike the usual "guy holed up with guns" standoff, this particular one is pretty good at escape and evasion. He was literally a one man army.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #144)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:17 AM

168. I see that.

I guess it will be further debated what they might have done. He did seem determined not to surrender, if the story is correct. It seems they had him cornered and surrounded and then they just fire-bombed him. But we do that all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I guess it's just another option anywhere now. It does need to be questioned. I don't understand why they couldn't use helicopters either. Was he really controlling the situation with his guns--and what kind of arsenal was it really?

I thought it went this way--they started tearing down the front wall with the armored vehicle and when he didn't run out the back right away, they torched it.

One man army -- seems like hype. But I guess that's splitting hairs when you're talking about a cold hearted killer on a rampage.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:00 AM

164. Murderer? He was never convicted and never will be, now.

His record will remain as clean as those that burned the cabin down around him without knowing if he was dead or alive (or in fact even the man they were looking for).

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:27 AM

170. Thats kind of a technicality in this case don't you think?

Was Adam Lanza a murderer? I think so.

I agree there are questions about how this was done. But I think I can call him a murderer safely.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #170)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:47 PM

345. Not in our system of law

And Adam Lanza s also presumed.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #345)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:26 PM

346. You can say presumed murderer

fine with me. And so can anyone dealing with it legally.

And I would have preferred it went to trial. But when you're dealing with insanity, things aren't always so neat IMO. Which in no way implies that I mean they handled it flawlessly or admirably.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #346)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:31 PM

347. Why his board of Rights tdid not accept

The testimony of the kickee, his mental status.

That said, sorry if I will not join people in calling somebody not convicted murdered. Hell, the Riverside Sheriffs did not today either. Tricky phrase, presumed.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #347)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:47 PM

348. For people not in the legal biz or law enforcement, or media

I don't think it matters so much. If I thought there was a shred of doubt, I wouldn't have called him a murderer. Probably would just say suspect. But I will call him a murderer if I think that's what he is.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #348)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:30 PM

351. It's a culture thing, which accepts things without thinking.

And I will add one more thing...chickens are indeed coming home to roost.

I make a point of not feeding them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #351)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:33 PM

352. I accept very little without thinking

but will look out for chicken sh*t.

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:28 AM

177. He's a murderer

Just not a convicted murderer.

His ontological status is quite independent of his legal status.

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:00 AM

183. Let me see if I understand you


If I walk up to you on the street, point a gun at you, demand your wallet, and then knock you down to the sidewalk, then you will get up and wonder if I am a mugger.

Do I have that right?

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:56 PM

349. He may remain "unconvicted" due to lack of a trial

but I will still call him (and Lanza) murderers, mass murderers.

And I call Dorner's death a suicide. (If what we have been told up to now is true. If not I will revise that).

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:46 PM

344. You must mean presumed? Or was he convicted in a court of law

And I missed it?

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:38 AM

153. This is probably modus operandi for a County Sheriff's Dept...

of a vast mountainous region, after a wild, tragic and frightening afternoon in which one of their own was shot and killed, another wounded; not to mention that two game wardens were fired on after they made a traffic stop up at the ski resort; two maids were surprised and tied up in a cabin they'd come to clean and their vehicle was stolen; another man was carjacked and his truck also taken...and it was getting dark.

I live in a fairly large county, also mountainous, and I haven't any doubt that my own Co. Sheriffs would sound and behave in much the same way as what you can hear in that video...mayhem had ensued in San Bernardino County throughout the day, they had their man cornered, a cold night was coming on, so they wrapped it up.

I am not surprised that this is what happened, because I expected something of the sort to finally end the entire affair, but yes, I am disgusted by it, tho not any more disgusted than I am by the havoc that the ex-cop himself wreaked upon the area.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:20 AM

161. He had a chance to exit the building and surrender peacefully...

 

They didn't want to sit around that cabin for days. Smoking him out was the best option.

Yes, I know the LAPD is corrupt and some were out for blood...

But if I ever find myself surrounded by dozens or hundreds of armed men in uniform I'm going to do whatever they say. Piss running constantly down my leg.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:17 AM

191. Well, this wasn't the LAPD.

It wasn't even LA county. These guys were from San Bernardino county and way out of LA jurisdiction.

I don't know why everybody presumes that the LAPD can go anywhere they want in SoCal. But I guess it's inevitable that people make that mistake.

Big Bear is miles from LA.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:43 AM

259. I think shooting up trucks loosely fitting the description of his without confirmation

he was even the driver mean surrender would be tricky, at the best and nearly impossible.

There seems to be evidence to suggest that the outcome was sought.

Perhaps more of a concern is it is so difficult to ever discuss process and living out our ideals because there is a society wide flaw that fixates on individuals to the point that systems and processes can't even be questioned without being aggressively painted as sympathy or even support for a criminal or a terrorist or a personal attack on a favored politician or party or support for the opposition.

By the same token, legitimate guilt is always individual as well. The barrel is fine and dandy no matter how many rotten apples come out of it, it must be the damn apples.

I also think we have been herded or tricked into a silly place due to Reagan and the TeaPubliKlans at least rhetorically (in actuality, they tend to expand government) as the "government is the problem" party because in response we have become the "government is good and the solution" party to the point we cannot drain any swamps or fight corruption because such things reduce trust of government. Transparency cannot be demanded because it may imply a lack of dependability and credibility. We sure as hell cannot question systems and institutions (unless the rich have questions too then fire away and cut taxes on high earners while you do it).

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:57 AM

175. I'm in several minds about this

I don't know if anyone has said what I'm about to say because I haven't read all the way through so I apologize if so.

First of all, I worry about cops playing judge, jury and executioner and someone being denied their due process of law.

However having said that - Dorner did say he would not be taken alive and predicted he would not be alive much longer. I assumed that meant he would either commit suicide or be shot by cops. If he had wanted to surrender to spare his life he could have. However I think most likely if he had walked out of that cabin, armed or not, they would have shot him.

Perhaps the cops didn't feel like they had any other alternative. They had lost one of their own and another was wounded and knowing that Dorner was an ex cop and was also in the military before that, he had tremendous knowledge on tactics and survival which made him much more dangerous. Knowing that he had this huge advantage that most people in this situation do not have, they didn't want to take a chance on anyone else getting hurt or killed.

But on the other hand, I wasn't there and have no first hand knowledge of what occured and I probably shouldn't speculate further until more info comes out.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:41 AM

179. Dorner committed suicide

There was nothing that forced him to continue shooting at the police once he was surrounded and had no hope of escape. Nothing that forced him to apparently shoot himself rather than exit the cabin once it was on fire.

If he tried to surrender and wasn't allowed to, I've seen no evidence of it. He made it clear in his manifesto that he had no intention of being captured alive. What was said in the video seemed to be a very human reaction to a crazy and scary situation.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:14 AM

186. Anyone besides me see the movie "The Negotiator" ?

Not implying parallels, just askin' ...

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

189. Good. I'm glad he couldn't kill anymore people.

He had just killed another guy who gave him the option of a peaceful surrender earlier in the day. Not sure how many chances he needs.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:41 AM

202. Thanks! Enjoyed it.

 

The serial killer's spree is over.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:56 AM

210. Can't have two sides to this story! I wonder why?

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:13 AM

218. why didn't they

use their armored vehicles that we have all paid for? Maybe they could have better protected themselves and captured him instead. Justice would have been served trial could have been conducted and he could then have agonized in a cell for a very long time

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Response to Livluvgrow (Reply #218)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:35 AM

228. and these armored vehicles...


I'm not familiar with their capabilities, but these vehicles have some sort of robotic arms on them for applying handcuffs?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #228)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:14 PM

269. I am sorry

I offer a solution all you have is a snide rebuttal. Hmm well 2 more officers would probably still be alive for one for two besides maybe a wall being knocked down somebody would still have their cabin and the tax payers of Ca would not be on the hook for yet more payouts. Se I at least offer a sounder possibility for a solution you have a snide remark. Good day.

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:14 AM

220. One wonders

One wonders how many of those who are untroubled with the decision to burn down the cabin with Dorner inside would be equally untroubled had a drone been deployed to shoot a hellfire missile into the cabin? Might be a topic for a different thread.

I have no problem with law enforcement shooting back and employing lethal force and there is no dis pare over Dorner's demise but I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the "burn him out" tactic that was employed. There was no way that law enforcement could determine with 100% certainty that there were no other people inside that cabin and had there been, the concept of "collateral damage" in the context of domestic law enforcement actions is totally unacceptable.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #220)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:34 AM

227. You can't surrender to a drone


You can, however, surrender to police. Given the opportunity to do so earlier in the day, Dorner killed one.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #227)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:40 AM

230. So......

So you would be opposed to using a drone then? But burning down the structure was ok? Just want to be clear.

Had a hostage been tied up in the basement, do you think they would have had the chance to surrender to the fire?

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #230)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:42 AM

232. His opportunity to surrender came long before any fire started


The cause of the fire, by the way, was... what?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #232)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:57 AM

238. Well,

According to the audio that has been posted it's pretty clear that it was intentionally set by law enforcement, unless you think they were just kidding when they said to go ahead with the burn that they had discussed and then noted shortly thereafter that they had a fire.......

Again, had there been a hostage that law enforcement was unaware of, could they have surrendered to the fire?

Just out of curiosity, what's the time limit on negotiating a surrender? If the individual doesn't surrender immediately, then just say, "screw it, send in a drone!"?

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:38 AM

229. Recording of live scanner feed discussing 'going ahead with "the burn"...



"Burn" is first mentioned around the 1 minute mark.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101798582

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Response to RetroGamer1971 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:46 AM

234. When you take people hostage, carjack people, shoot at cops and kill one of them

and write a manifesto bragging about the skills and tools you have to keep cops at bay...

there's pretty much no choice other than to burn that fucker down, and I'm glad they did.

Disagree? OK...let's put a badge on YOU and see how much YOU'D like to approach the cabin to effect
arrest on a trained killer intent on not being taken alive, when you have no idea what weapons or
explosives he had with him.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #234)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:52 AM

235. Maybe we should just make this standard operating procedure

Anytime police have to deal with someone who is believed to be armed and dangerous - just firebomb them. If it's too dangerous to get close enough to do the job, just call in a drone strike.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #235)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:55 AM

236. "Believed to be" armed and dangerous.


Excuse me while I laugh at you for a while.

HE HAD JUST SHOT TWO COPS AND KILLED ONE OF THEM.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #236)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:04 AM

241. Okay, so then use drone strikes whenever someone is KNOWN to be armed and dangerous

Is that better?

After all, using armed drones would decrease the risk to LEO's, and a Hellfire missile is a good way to kill the sonofabitch.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #241)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:06 AM

242. That suits me fine, actually. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #234)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:04 AM

240. Just curious

Since, as you indicated, Dorner had a prior history of holding several people hostage and as you said, authorities has no idea what weapons or explosives he had with him, how exactly were they able to determine with 100% certainty that there were no other people in the cabin, prior to torching it?

I'd disagree that they had no other choice than to "burn that fucker down". There are reasonable levels of response, to insure that innocents are not endangered and I think this one may have gone over the line.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #240)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:07 AM

243. Were you there?

Maybe they did know he was the only one in the cabin.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #243)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:15 AM

247. No, were you?

How could they have known for sure? Honest question, ...just tell us how they could know for sure that there was not anyone else in the cabin?

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #247)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:17 AM

248. I said "maybe they did know"

So obviously I have no idea. I suspect they did know he was alone, however, so I am fine with turning it and him to a cinder.

Sorry if you don't like that.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #248)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:21 AM

252. and I asked "how could they?"

I just asked how could they know for sure? Because Dorner didn't make any mention of having a hostage? It's entirely likely that they "thought" or "presumed" that he was alone, which is a lot different from "knowing" that he was alone.

If they were wrong in that presumption, would you have been fine with them turning a hostage into a cinder?

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #252)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:26 AM

254. If they were wrong?

OF COURSE I wouldn't have been fine with that. I don't live in the ex post world, however.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #254)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:31 AM

256. So

So the policy is sound as long as the outcome is Ok? Got it.

Would the same apply to using a drone instead of just torching the place?

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