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Tue Feb 12, 2013, 04:57 PM

WTF is so "special" about Dorner & the LAPD, that unleashes Attack-Trolls on DU?

For some strange reason, in this particular case -- of someone going "postal" and going
on a murdering spree -- no one is supposed to have the slightest bit of interest
or curiosity about the back-story involved
: i.e. what the hell was going on internally
at the LAPD that led up to Dorner feeling "pushed over the line" to become a living
nightmare for policemen and their families everywhere?

In EVERY other case, of mass shootings, rogue gunmen (it's always a male it seems),
going on a killing spree, it has been A-OK -- even lauditory -- to carefully inquire into
what led up to this happening, what was the frame of mind of the person who went
off the rails, what was the shooter's relationship like with the institution(s) most
closely associated with his murderous rampage?

When it's a school or post office that suffers from one of these incidents, many legitimate
questions are delved into, as to whether the shooter had any kind of connections with the
school, what the nature of those connections were, how they effected his behavior, etc.

but for some odd reason, those very same questions in Dorner/LAPD care for some odd
reason "out of bounds" as in "nothing to see here - move along or I'll publicly slime the fuck
out of you".

Can someone please tell me why, when someone on DU expresses interest in ANY
of these questions, they are ruthlessly and relentlessly attacked with accusations like
"How can you possibly be JUSTIFYING the actions of this killer on the loose??"
or
some such. Which not only misses the point, but obscures and deflects and discourages
anyone from even "going there" because they don't want to be attacked like that.

This just isn't right.


In another Dorner OP today, someone quotes Rude Pundit pointing out that it is indeed
possible to hold TWO (or more) thoughts at the same time, without ones heads exploding
:
i.e. to abhor Dorner's murderous deeds, and to also want to better understand what led up to
him feeling pushed over the edge" to commit such atrocities. I wish more DUer had the
capacity to do that: hold both of these thoughts at the same time.

Can someone please explain this glaring double standard?

On edit: I removed paragraph about prior OP as it was serving only as a distraction from the
central question I was raising with this OP.

197 replies, 26018 views

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Arrow 197 replies Author Time Post
Reply WTF is so "special" about Dorner & the LAPD, that unleashes Attack-Trolls on DU? (Original post)
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 OP
msanthrope Feb 2013 #1
EOTE Feb 2013 #6
msanthrope Feb 2013 #7
Wait Wut Feb 2013 #22
msanthrope Feb 2013 #35
EOTE Feb 2013 #25
msanthrope Feb 2013 #46
EOTE Feb 2013 #49
msanthrope Feb 2013 #68
EOTE Feb 2013 #70
msanthrope Feb 2013 #90
EOTE Feb 2013 #93
theKed Feb 2013 #88
iandhr Feb 2013 #109
EOTE Feb 2013 #154
iandhr Feb 2013 #111
EOTE Feb 2013 #153
dballance Feb 2013 #194
Threedifferentones Feb 2013 #196
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #26
msanthrope Feb 2013 #54
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #97
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #60
msanthrope Feb 2013 #71
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #73
msanthrope Feb 2013 #95
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #98
msanthrope Feb 2013 #100
EOTE Feb 2013 #74
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #79
EOTE Feb 2013 #89
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #156
msanthrope Feb 2013 #162
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #165
villager Feb 2013 #2
EOTE Feb 2013 #3
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #56
AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #113
iandhr Feb 2013 #131
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #137
iandhr Feb 2013 #174
iandhr Feb 2013 #175
Marr Feb 2013 #168
zeemike Feb 2013 #133
EOTE Feb 2013 #157
zeemike Feb 2013 #171
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #4
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #125
JI7 Feb 2013 #5
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #11
JI7 Feb 2013 #14
Are_grits_groceries Feb 2013 #21
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #24
zappaman Feb 2013 #29
EOTE Feb 2013 #64
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #155
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #179
zappaman Feb 2013 #180
Are_grits_groceries Feb 2013 #30
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #45
zappaman Feb 2013 #48
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #13
JI7 Feb 2013 #15
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #27
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #80
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #163
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #172
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #173
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #177
liberalmuse Feb 2013 #8
cali Feb 2013 #16
Are_grits_groceries Feb 2013 #19
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #28
zappaman Feb 2013 #33
liberalmuse Feb 2013 #39
cali Feb 2013 #9
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #52
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #10
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #38
cali Feb 2013 #43
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #86
Skinner Feb 2013 #12
cali Feb 2013 #17
HappyMe Feb 2013 #20
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #69
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #23
ProSense Feb 2013 #31
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #37
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #42
FSogol Feb 2013 #53
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #58
FSogol Feb 2013 #63
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #72
FSogol Feb 2013 #99
RandiFan1290 Feb 2013 #87
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #65
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #132
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #139
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #147
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #161
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #44
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #55
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #62
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #104
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #123
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #127
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #129
Number23 Feb 2013 #50
DevonRex Feb 2013 #85
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #160
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #18
villager Feb 2013 #32
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #34
villager Feb 2013 #40
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #130
villager Feb 2013 #136
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #138
villager Feb 2013 #140
JimDandy Feb 2013 #152
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #185
iandhr Feb 2013 #134
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #190
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #36
cali Feb 2013 #41
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #51
AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #119
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #120
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #181
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #197
SidDithers Feb 2013 #47
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #57
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #66
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #67
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #75
JuniperLea Feb 2013 #82
SidDithers Feb 2013 #77
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #96
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #84
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #108
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #110
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #118
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #186
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #191
Lady Freedom Returns Feb 2013 #59
gateley Feb 2013 #61
mokawanis Feb 2013 #76
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #81
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #78
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #91
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #94
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #114
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #83
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #92
randome Feb 2013 #112
LineLineLineReply .
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #148
Trajan Feb 2013 #101
randome Feb 2013 #102
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #103
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #106
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #116
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #117
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #121
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #159
joshcryer Feb 2013 #135
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #105
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #128
truth2power Feb 2013 #107
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #124
zeemike Feb 2013 #150
ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #115
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #122
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #126
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #142
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #146
haele Feb 2013 #141
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #151
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #184
Ohio Joe Feb 2013 #143
WHEN CRABS ROAR Feb 2013 #144
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #145
Gore1FL Feb 2013 #149
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #167
Gore1FL Feb 2013 #169
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #182
Gore1FL Feb 2013 #192
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #158
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #164
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #166
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #170
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #176
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #178
CBHagman Feb 2013 #183
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #187
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #193
brooklynite Feb 2013 #188
Jeffersons Ghost Feb 2013 #189
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #195

Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 04:59 PM

1. Yeah...Dorner's in a firefight right now with Fish&Game & deputies after a home invasion. Maybe

you could come back later?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:03 PM

6. Or now is good too.

I don't see why now would be an inappropriate time to discuss this. If you're intrigued by the television coverage, no one is preventing you from watching with wide eyes.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:05 PM

7. Well, I'm waiting for the part of the Manifesto that justifies a home invasion and shooting at Fish&

Game.

Never mind that there are two wounded deputies being airlifted. Yeah--let's listen to Mr. Dorner's complaints!

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:22 PM

22. How dare you!

That couple was probably guilty of something and don't get me started on Fish & Game!

I just want those deputies to be able to go home to their families, for that couple to get their car back and have a peaceful rest of the week. And, I want those F&G guys(?) to get a raise. I hope Dorner makes it out alive so he can stand trial. If he doesn't, too bad.

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Response to Wait Wut (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:32 PM

35. Well, the leading authority on F&G shennanigans is Dorner! Which is why he shot at them! So let's

make sure we have a real serious discussion on LEO corruption based on a spree-killer's Facebook page!

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:26 PM

25. Oh, I'm sorry, you must be incredibly confused.

You seem to be suggesting that I and others here are defending the actions of a murderer. That's a common issue for people with little common sense. If you try really hard though, I'm sure you'll be able to make a somewhat decent argument WITHOUT the use of strawmen. Then again, probably not.

On edit: Oh, by the way, you illustrate the actions claimed by the OP perfectly. YOU and those of your ilk are exactly why this OP is so incredibly important. Thanks for illustrating the point so exquisitely.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:41 PM

46. No--I'm suggesting something quite different. I'm suggesting that using Mr. Dorner's complaints

as a springboard to talk about LAPD corruption is lunacy. It's kind of like trying to take Charlie Manson's complaint that his trial was unfairly compromised by Ronald Hughes's death seriously.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:45 PM

49. The OP is asking why people are so intent on shutting down discussion of Dorner's motivations.

Much like you attempted to shut down discussion of Dorner's motivations by suggesting that those discussing this are excusing a murderer. I knew the LAPD is a corrupt, evil organization well before Dorner went on his killing spree, but I'll take any excuse to bring to light their evil actions.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

68. Yeah....I'm really tired of trying to figure out the motivations of murderers. Adam Lanza had

motivations, too. Think I give a shit about them?

If you think Dorner's motivations are a springboard to talking about LAPD corruption, then I wish you well in your endeavors. I might pick someone with less blood on their hands, though.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:57 PM

70. Have fun with your anti-intellectualism.

Some people want to know why, clearly you're happy with whatever the television feeds you. If learning stuff is tedious for you, that's more than OK, just don't try to stop other people from educating themselves.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:12 PM

90. Educating yourself??? Off a Facebook page? Let me not stand in the way of your intellectual

pursuits.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #90)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:15 PM

93. You're the one talking about Facebook, not us.

So, I have no idea what you're referring to, but it appears you've become unhinged. I will explain this to you again as you seem to have a very difficult time understanding things: The OP was about people shutting down discussion of Dorner. You come along and do EXACTLY as the OP described. This discussion has nothing to do with Facebook, that was your own active imagination. This was about shutting down discussion, something you tried, but failed to do.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:09 PM

88. Um

"Adam Lanza had motivations, too. Think I give a shit about them?"

You should, if you want to be able to say you're interested in stopping more of those types of attacks in the future.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:37 PM

109. WOW

Its amazing how in this post you show no sympathy for his victims.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #109)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:45 PM

154. Wow, you just showed no sympathy for his victims too!

You should be ashamed of yourself! How pathetic. I wasn't talking about his victims, Einstein. I don't feel compelled to mourn for his victims in every post I make, just as you don't. How about trying a little intellectual honesty and get off your high horse.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:39 PM

111. Maybe because he murdered innocent civilians?

I think that might have something to do with it.

And maybe some of us feel no matter what the LAPD might have done it does not justify murder.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:42 PM

153. What on earth are you blabbering about?

Because he murdered innocent civilians that's why we SHOULDN'T learn his motivations? I can't describe how asinine that sounds. Nobody is justifying Dorner's murders, what a humongous strawman. It's important to learn every killer's motivations, that so many are incredibly set against that here simply shows how many authoritarians we have among us. How incredibly sad.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #111)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:45 AM

194. Good Grief. Your Posts Make the Point of the OP Rather Nicely

You seem to be unable to accept that relatively few people are actually defending Dorner and saying the LAPD's actions caused him to go rogue and, therefore, excusing him on that basis. The fact is that most people, probably 99.9%, think he's a murderer who needs to be stopped. Everyone mourns the dead victims. I've yet to see a post where someone implied they got what they deserved.

But you seem unable to wrap your head around the fact there are two issues here. One, Dorner is a murderer, and Two, the LAPD seems to be overwhelmingly thought of as corrupt and abusive so it needs to be investigated.

The two issues can be discussed simultaneously and it is not required for every post on these subjects to mourn the victims.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:10 AM

196. It isn't like that at all. Here's the difference.

1. It has been well known that the LAPD is full of problems, that their officers are too frequently corrupt and abusive, and that this problem must reflect a culture and not merely a few proverbial "bad apples." Since Dorner has the LAPD all over every front page, it is only natural to talk about what's on everybody's mind.

2. It is well known that Charlie Manson was absolutely guilty, and that he would have been convicted in any court and any trial.

See the difference? One of the things in your comparison is true. The LAPD really is corrupt. The other is not, Hughes' death did not affect the outcome of that trial. Considering this, what use is your post?

Well, it can be helpful to show people how NOT to reason, so I won't say none at all.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:27 PM

26. Well I always wonder what makes a person go off like this. I always thought knowning

 

the back story could possible help the next person who might have the same kind of issue. Maybe it can be prevented. I don't support murder by this ex-cop. However, if he had gotten the justice he was seeking in the first place maybe this would of never happened. Cause and effect.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

54. There's very little to be learned to 'help the next person' right now. He's engaged in shooting

at LEOs, and the people he's critiqued in his manifesto are still hiding out for their lives. So there's very little critical perspective to be applied.

Ultimately, there may be very little to know or learn from this person outside what value he may provide to clinicians. He's a criminal, and criminals lie.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:21 PM

97. I still would love to know why he snapped that he would go down to murder like that.

 

People just don't wake up and say I am going to kill someone today. If they think like that than there is a reason. He didn't get what he thinks was justice and now justice is going to get him. It isn'

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:49 PM

60. And how many times did we read that he'd NEVER harm anyone he didn't have involvement with? n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:58 PM

71. Why do want to shut down a perfectly reasonable discussion about the injustices suffered by a spree

killer?

We don't know what Fish&Game did to him, but for all we know, they could have denied him a fishing permit years ago....

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:59 PM

73. I hadn't thought about that. Here in Big Bear they can be real assholes too.

I'm sorry, I guess I hadn't thought about all the possible angles that might justify his actions...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:19 PM

95. We're being anti-intellectual, apparently. We're impeding the great understanding

that's going on of Mr. Dorner's motivations.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #95)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:22 PM

98. And I have this burning yearning to understand his motivations... n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #98)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:26 PM

100. Of course. Because his motivations will prove what a tortured soul he is....nt

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:00 PM

74. Where did you read that?

I hardly heard a thing about him until he had already killed people he didn't have involvement with. I'm very interested in seeing where you read this. Honestly. Can you provide a link of sorts?

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Response to EOTE (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:04 PM

79. Here's the FIRST time I read something like that... there have been many other instances.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:10 PM

89. That was 5 days AFTER he had already killed two innocents.

So someone makes an uninformed comment based upon a reading of his manifesto and you use that to lambaste many. Again, this is 5 days AFTER he had already killed folks. It was rather stupid to make the comment that he's of no danger to the unassociated, but given the circumstances, I can't imagine there being a rash of those comments as it would be utterly nonsensical as he had already killed people before the story broke.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:48 PM

156. And one just died

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #156)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:52 PM

162. I'm sure someone will tell me how fucking important it is we discuss Dorner's

motivations for that murder.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #162)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:56 PM

165. I know -- the guy is the Unabomber

I think it's a given the LAPD isn't exactly a shining star. That doesn't make Dorner some folk hero. He is a killer and a criminal.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:00 PM

2. Oh, double-standards abound on this website!

Some of them are even quite amusing. Almost.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:01 PM

3. I can't explain the double standard, but I do feel for you.

I've been the subject of the same attacks you've received. I think a lot of it has to do with authority worship. Some people REALLY have a hard time with authority being questioned. I'm just surprised there are so many of such people on DU.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

56. As the Republican Party dies more and more conservatives creep under our tent.

It is a conservative trait to assume anyone accused is guilty. Makes life easier. It is a conservative trait to bully and that's what you see happening here in DU. All you have to do is pledge your love for Pres Obama and you are free to call-out those that you "suspect" of not being loyal and the posse will give you support. I think it's called "righteous bullying", or "bullying for God". Not sure.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:39 PM

113. Nailed it!

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:18 PM

131. Ah well this guy posted on the internet that he is responsible.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #131)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:26 PM

137. Yes you are right. And the Conservatives among us would say that means he

has forfeited his Constitutional rights, that he doesnt deserve a trial. And anyone that says otherwise is some kind of "apologist" or another.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #137)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:30 PM

174. I would disagree with those people.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #137)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:32 PM

175. He will probably himself give up his right to a trial by pleading guilty.

In exchange for which the state will take the death penalty off the table.

Just a guess of how it will be resolved.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:03 PM

168. It's a conservative trait to instinctually side with authority and power.

Back in college, before I ever gave any serious thought to politics, I'd sometimes listen to right-wing radio on my drive to school-- just to count the number of logical fallacies the various hosts employed. One thing that struck me after a few months of this was that, whenever a story of police abuse began to break, conservative callers began vehemently expressing their support for the cops, without any facts whatsoever.

It struck me as odd back then, because they were also always honking on about what rugged individualists they were, how they hated the government and it's intrusions, etc.-- just as they do today.

Years later I read Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians, and it was very illuminating. Conservatives worship strength and authority, and that's it. They are supremely servile and very anxious to assign blame to the victims of bullies.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:20 PM

133. Some times I think one person has several personas.

Sense many of them sound alike and have the same tone.
But it is a property of the authoritarian personality to object to any criticism of authority...and there are left wing authoritarians for sure, but they are few in numbers...it fits better in the GOP.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #133)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:48 PM

157. I'm pretty much certain of it.

And I know there are fewer authoritarians with us than there are with them, but it sickens and saddens me that there are as many in this party as there are. What's even scarier is that they seem to be growing in number. The GOP doesn't need any help in bringing about their police state.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #157)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:09 PM

171. Someone else here said that they are slipping in under the tent

and I agree...
But more troubling to me is that they seem to be manipulating the system and controlling the message...and playing on the fact that liberals in general don't like troublesome things and try to be nice and broad minded...they use that flaw (that is how they see it not me) to club the shit out of people...

I suppose the logical thing is for us to form ourselves into a Bullying Police Posse and hunt them down like they would do us...But that is the foolish thing to do, to adopt as your own their immoral and unethical tactics is to make them legitimate...And I am totally opposed to doing that.

Sunshine is the answer...it always is.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:02 PM

4. In my opinion, some posters have latched onto the fact that people are interested in the story

...as a way to try to get other posters banned. The strongest indicator that I might have a point here is the ridiculous nature of the charges that have been leveled by some--the charges don't stand up to even cursory inspection. In every case where one poster is calling for the banning of another poster based on Dorner, Person A wanted Person B banned long before any of us had heard of Dorner. This was just a cheap and easy story to latch onto for those intent on taking others down.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:11 PM

125. It does appear to be the case, at least re: Dorner. Thanks for noticing. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:02 PM

5. because it has reached the conspiracy theory stage

and we have evidence in this case against Dorner. based on what people who know him said and his own actions the guy is just a thug. it wasn't a case of him snapping after years of trying to correct some injustice.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:09 PM

11. I saw but didn't read an article in a Twitter post that a friend of Dorners says he is

 

a great guy. Don't forget the true story that he and another military person found and returned some $10K lost by a church.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:12 PM

14. and romney paid for college for some guy he met

and some other lame stories from idiots who supported him for pres.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:22 PM

21. Excuse me?

This is not a zero sum problem. Good deeds don't wipe out bad ones. The deliberate killing of people is heinous. Returning money is a good move,but it has nothing to do with these events.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:25 PM

24. I didn't say that it did, sheesh. It does go against any meme that he's only just a thug.

 

All of the evidence is not in. Too many are sucking up whatever mainstream media spew.

Do not forget that the core of this is about a corrupt police department in grave need of intervention. And NO I do not condone his alleged murders (innocent until proven guilty in a court of law).

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:30 PM

29. Right...it just helps you with your "LAPD are domestic terrorists" meme...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

64. The LAPD tortures, kills and imprisons innocent people.

Sure sounds like terrorism to me. Or am I using an outdated definition?

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Response to EOTE (Reply #64)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:46 PM

155. When OUR gov't does it, it's not torture, murder

Such concerns are increasingly reserved for OTHER nations, not our own.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:17 PM

179. zappaman works for LAPD's social media department.

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Response to shcrane71 (Reply #179)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 PM

180. Nah, Zappaman just lives and works in LA

and even knows a couple of cops.
Zappaman also knows hyperbole and outright bullshit when he reads it.

Carry on, brave soldier!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:30 PM

30. He can be a thug.

Doing a good deed doesn't mean he isn't. Drug dealers have helped whole neighborhoods.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:41 PM

45. Nice to see that people are willing to entertain at least a 2-dimensional character study of a man

 

about whom we know little. :/ LAPD are quite enough the judge, jury, and executioner for me already. Don't need it on DU.

There is a $1,000,000 bounty out for him. What does he know that they don't want him to tell?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:43 PM

48. "There is a $1,000,000 bounty out for him. What does he know that they don't want him to tell?"

Yes, that must be it.


Certainly not the fact he has killed 3 people, is heavily armed, trained in warfare, and has promised to kill more.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:09 PM

13. Oh, so Dorner had his trial already & been adjudicated, found guilty? I wasn't aware of this.

when did this happen, other than in your own head?

"we have evidence" ?? who is "we" and where is your link to this "evidence"?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:14 PM

15. the manifesto , the ex girlfriend's words , the shooting of the couple

yeah, of course he deserves a trial if he is caught alive.

but that odesn't mean we can't discuss what we know.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:29 PM

27. Why are you insisting that I am somehow trying to "excuse" or "justify" Dorner

and his crazed murderous behavior? I have never ever even implied that I think Dorner is
some kind of hero , or any of that crap. There may be some people trying to do that, but
I am emphatically NOT one of them. Got that?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:05 PM

80. Are you back to suggesting that Obama staged this?

Or are you just playing stupid and pretending there's evidence that Dorner' didn't do it (given that he kidnapped a couple and shot two more deputies today, that would be really fucking stupid).

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:54 PM

163. His fourth victim died while you were posting this apologia for him and starting

yet another flame war. NO ONE believes he isn't shooting people and committing murder. NO ONE.

You're just trolling pathetically at this point.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #163)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:16 PM

172. I give up

I am calling it quits for today.

I've never said anything remotely like what I'm being accused of saying,
including your claim that I'm somehow "apologizing" for Dorner.. Sheesh,
I have other things to do that are much more rewarding.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #172)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:20 PM

173. He's dead now, so I guess you can go on pretending that there's some great mystery as

to who's responsible for those 4 dead bodies due to a lack of evidence.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:01 PM

177. NPR reported today that everyone who knew him, save an ex-girlfriend are completely shocked

by this turn of events. I suppose NPR's Morning Edition isn't a credible source of news information, eh?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:05 PM

8. Holding two or more thoughts...

in your head at the same time is SCAAAARRRRY to some people, so they cut that shit right down. I hate that Dorner murdered 3 people (so far), but let's face it - the guy doesn't in any way resemble a cold-blooded killer (picture-wise - he obviously is). Parts of his manifesto made sense, and other parts were weird (giving celebrities advice). It's easier for some to dismiss everything than deal with their own conflicted thoughts.

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:14 PM

16. I don't find it scary at all

Some of us can even hold two opposing thoughts in our heads. I call it the Theory of Apparent Paradox- wherein two seemingly irreconcilable truths exist within the same space/time frame.

So, the LAPD is an institution rife with criminality, brutality and corruption. Whether that is germane to Dorner's actions has not been established.

Now onto Dorner, I'm not sure what you mean by "the guy doesn't in any way resemble a cold-blooded killer ".. Sure he does; his manifesto which is stunningly narcissistic and his actions- murdering Monica Quan and her fiancee in cold blood, make clear that that's exactly what he is.

I have no more conflict about Dorner than I do about anyone else who murders in cold blood. I have no more conflict about it than I do about the Drone program.

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:18 PM

19. Wait! Wut?

Not a cold-blooded killer?

Tell that to the people he gunned down in the parking garage and in that sitting police car.

I do believe there are some problems to say the least in the LAPD. However, I give no quarter to Dorner. His actions are beyond horrible. If what he saw or underwent justifies anything he has done on this spree, then it's wide open to everybody with a grievance to do whatever the hell they want to correct it.

I'm glad the Chief is going to reopen his case. That is a good step.
As far as the manifesto? I'll tell you what:
It's hard to hear or see what he has to say over the gunfire, blood, and bodies. That's a natural reaction from many people.

I am no fan of the police, but if this is beyond the pale.

A-I hope any problems in the are thoroughly exposed and appropriate measures taken.
B-I also hope Dorner gets tried in a court and justice is done. If that doesn't happen, it's on him. He began this part of a very lethal play.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:29 PM

28. Chief Beck isn't going to re-open the case. That's bullshit. LAPD LIE. Mayor Villaraigosa calls this

 

a "reign of terror" and there is a $1 million reward. It's clear there have been shoot-to-kill orders out from the beginning, as LAPD unloaded 64 bullets at two Hispanic women, and have shot at two more suspects who were and remain very much not an armed 280 pound black man.

I've seen LAPD up close and have been assaulted by them for attempting to record an unjustified arrest. Fuck LAPD.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:31 PM

33. "Chief Beck isn't going to re-open the case. That's bullshit. LAPD LIE."

How do you know this?
Are you wearing your "cop hate rose filtered glasses"?

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:35 PM

39. Please re-read my post, because you read it wrong.

I know I'm a crappy writer, but did not say he wasn't a cold-blooded killer. That fact is pretty much undisputed. When I first saw his picture under the headline "cop killer", the smiling guy did not look like a your average killer, that's all.

The fact that he murdered innocents has pretty much destroyed any credibility he may have had as a spokesperson against police corruption.

I'll go so far as to agree that the LAPD is a corrupt organization, but he's taken himself out of that discussion by becoming the very thing he despises.

It is really difficult to post anything other than "Dorner is a cop killer". If you dare post anything other than that - like maybe he made sense in his manifesto on a couple points, people jump your shit. And THAT is exactly what I was trying to say in the post you responded to.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:06 PM

9. nothing like making broad claims.

"no one is supposed to have the slightest bit of interest
or curiosity about the back-story involved:"

uh, no.

Your post is inaccurate on one point after another.

People are coming to different conclusions. Shocking.

Personally, I think the guy is a narcissistic, self-aggrandizing murderer. His self-reporting? I'm not convinced he's a reliable reporter. Whether he is or isn't, the LAPD is clearly a department rife with corruption that needs some serious investigation.

I think he's sadistic, sick and wants to make others suffer. I reject that he was "pushed" over the edge. He waited YEARS to do this. You want to understand him? This is a man who held onto grudges and hate from elementary school. That is sick and should give you some indication of who his is.

Pushed my ass.

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Response to cali (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

52. Is this the post where you "respond" to the "double-standard" question?

If so, I don't see it.

You avoid the core of the issue, which is why has it been OK, ever since the
word "going postal" was coined over a decade ago, to inquire into the back-
story, including the family issues, the insitutions most closely involved,
and so forth; but in this case, not so much.

I don't see where you helped me understand why the difference in the Dorner
situation, why is asking questions about the institutional back-story so wildly
misconstrued as somehow "trying to justify" Dorner and his killing spree?

I am genuinely wanting to know this, this is not rhetorical question.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:08 PM

10. From where I stand, Salem, MA had nothing

on DU. If it's not one thing, it's another. Witch hunting seems to be the favored activity and we have dozens who are more than happy to play Joe McCarthy.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:35 PM

38. I notice that NO ONE's willing to even touch my "what's up w/ the double-standard?" issue. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:37 PM

43. because there is no double standard-

it's in your mind. and yeah, I responded to it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:08 PM

86. I would take a break from DU for awhile....

if I were that unhappy with it.

As to the double standard, I don't believe there is one...again from where I am standing, as a relatively new member, it appears everyone and anyone is fair game on any given day. I've been surprised at the number of long-time members who have come under attack, and newbies are always fair game. People seem to have a inordinate number of hot buttons. Don't take it so personally...as this too shall pass.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:09 PM

12. I see you didn't repeat the claim that Dorner's killing spree might be a "staged event"...

..."so that massive surveillance apparatus that Obama's been building can document how private citizens respond and talk about it on the internet."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592

The fact that you didn't repeat it here suggests that you know exactly why people thought you were out of line.

If you really thought you were targeted unfairly, you should have the balls to own that half-baked kooky post.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:16 PM

17. Thanks. I find that- and this op- disturbing

If Dorner is killed, we'll undoubtedly get the comments about how he was executed to shut him up.

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Response to cali (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:21 PM

20. Yes.

That will be the kick off of the "martyr" posts.

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Response to cali (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:56 PM

69. I really hear what those people have to say IF he's taken alive... n/t

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Response to Skinner (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:23 PM

23. I'm quickly losing my interest in continuing to participate in DU

I posted my offending OP for all to see, in it's entirety, including the
clarification of my intent i.e. I AM guilty of letting my disdain for Obama
continuing gangbusters to build Bush's unprecedented unconstitutional
"massive surveillance apparatus" <-- for letting my concern about this
issue, bleed into the Dorner banter. My bad. I owned it in the string,
and I'm owning it now.

Again, I'm feeling completely baffled as to your reasoning Skinner, et. al.
in attacking my posts in general, and this one you cite, even after it's
been corrected, repeatedly.

So ban me. Fine. At least I've spoken my truth .. that's all I can do, so
if this isn't sufficient genuflecting to remain on DU, then so be it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:30 PM

31. No one

I AM guilty of letting my disdain for Obama
continuing gangbusters to build Bush's unprecedented unconstitutional
"massive surveillance apparatus" <-- for letting my concern about this
issue, bleed into the Dorner banter.

...noticed.

That's a problem for some people. For supporters everything Obama does, like signing health care reform or capturing bin Laden, is about Obama.

For some of his detractors, everything is about Obama, including Dorner and every ill in the world dating back to as far back as they can go.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:34 PM

37. Your truth?

We can have our own truth now?

The Idiocracy seems so normal sometimes... but not this time.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:37 PM

42. Everyone has their own truth.

If you can't even comprehend that factoid,
then I have nothing further to say.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

53. LOL "Everyone has their own truth." Que the X-Files theme...

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Response to FSogol (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:48 PM

58. Ahh so you smelled the blood and came running. nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:52 PM

63. No, I read your post and laughed. When the episode ended yesterday, I thought everything

was cleared up. Imagine my surprise to see you doubling down.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:58 PM

72. Doubling down on what exactly?

certainly not my clumsy impulsive "staged event" comments.

Yet, my curiosity remains intact, as to why THIS crazed shooter
even is so very different from others, as to whether is ok to
wonder about the back-story.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #72)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:26 PM

99. I think post #94 sums it up pretty well.

You made an insane post, you apologized, claim to be misunderstood, and now are crying because some people called you on it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:09 PM

87. Seems like somone rang the dinner bell...

A Strange Day.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

65. Right...

Just dismiss me because I'd prefer to speak in real truth instead of your own made up "truth." I comprehend plenty... but prefer to deal in reality, thank you very much.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:20 PM

132. That must be very comforting.

to have such a tidy universe.

no real burning questions, no cognitive dissidence,
everything pretty-much explained for you by some
"pre-ordained authority".

That is indeed quite different from the world I'm
experiencing these days. Strikingly so.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:29 PM

139. I'm not sure where you are getting all that

But it's not my reality... it's your assumption.

Kind of creepy, actually.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #139)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:54 PM

147. "I'd prefer to speak in REAL TRUTH instead of your own made up "truth."

You apparently feel there is A Truth, or The Truth, sans any nuances,
or shades of gray, or different "realities" being experienced by different
people, depending on their perspective.

I seriously doubt that this is a new idea for you, and that you were
just momentarily fixated on the subject at hand, and so convinced of
your own perceptions being true, that you would make claims to having
and inside track on the "real truth".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:51 PM

161. No, there is only one truth, one set of facts

Everyone has their own opinions and point of view.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:41 PM

44. It is an idiom often used in suppport networks. But also used elsewhere.

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

It indicates that a person has spoken plainly from the heart.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

55. Thank you. ~nt

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:51 PM

62. Which is really nothing but their own feelings...

Whoever started this personal truth deal has a screw loose.

This is a major problem in society today... seriously. Using the language incorrectly leads to the kind of ridiculousness we see here.

There is only one truth in any situation. I don't accept that the feelings of any one human is truth just because they feel it is. That's absurd.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:30 PM

104. Blame it on Indira Gandi

http://books.google.com/books/about/My_truth.html?id=uWoTAAAAMAAJ

My truth
by Indira Gandi

India's controversial Prime Minister recounts her childhood, her friendship with Mahatma Gandhi, the wars with China and Pakistan, and her personal vision of India's future

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #104)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:06 PM

123. That's not used in the same way...

Try reading what is in that book and you'll get it.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:13 PM

127. I make the little joke. I've read the book. It's on my bookshelf.

And that, my dear, is the last thing I have to say to you. Your bulldog demeanor on this issue doesn't jibe well with this beautiful San Francisco day.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #127)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:16 PM

129. Well bully for you

Excuse me if you find the unvarnished truth unpalatable. I thrive on it myself. Life is too short for BS.

At least it's clear today, but I wouldn't call 57 degrees a beautiful day. To each his/her own.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:45 PM

50. Damn. Just... damn

you should have the balls to own that half-baked kooky post.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:07 PM

85. This is for you.

<img src="" border="0" alt="Valentine heart plant" title="Valentine heart plant" />

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Response to Skinner (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:50 PM

160. +1

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:17 PM

18. Another "anyone who disagrees with me is a troll" rant. Yawn. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:31 PM

32. Another troll-like "yawn" instead of substantive disagreement with the OP (nt)

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Response to villager (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:31 PM

34. And another one! This thread's the gift that keeps on dumbing. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:36 PM

40. I didn't "yawn," but commented on yours. Though your "comments" certainly prove out the OP's

....contention.

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Response to villager (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:17 PM

130. Is this an "I know you are but what am I?" post?

Because I find them every bit as lacking as a yawn.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:26 PM

136. I'm not completely sure what the yawner intended, JL, though it does seem to confirm the OP

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Especially when everyone can take time out of their day to snark about an event where real death is involved.

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Response to villager (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:28 PM

138. I only see snark toward the OP

The OP, in my POV, belittles the situation.

There is very little fact based reality in the OP, AFAIC.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:31 PM

140. One set of facts doesn't preclude the other, though. As in the OJ trial.

OJ was guilty.

But the LAPD also tried to frame him (and thereby screwed up the trial).

Dorner's a broken psychopath, going down in a blaze as we speak.

The LAPD is a corrupt police force.

One is not required to be false, for the other to be true.

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Response to villager (Reply #140)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:32 PM

152. That is succinct and a spot on analysis. n/t

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Response to villager (Reply #140)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:39 PM

185. Oh, that complicates things. Let's just go back to the good ol' days of

labeling people "evil-doers", blow them away, or marginalize them, and call it day.



Thanks for the insight. I appreciated it.

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:21 PM

134. At least the person who you are calling a troll doesn't plagiarize

"It is indeed possible to hold TWO (or more) thoughts at the same time, without ones heads exploding"


F. Scott Fitzgerland Said

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

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Response to iandhr (Reply #134)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:14 AM

190. So you think 1) F. Scott F is the only person in the Universe to ever make that observation?

and 2) that I'm plagiarized him by saying this? --> "It is indeed possible
to hold TWO (or more) thoughts at the same time, without ones heads exploding" ?




btw, not to be picky, but I think you are referring to F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:32 PM

36. People who kill other people are a tad crazy

Don't listen to the crazy.

I'm sick of this shit.

If we give credence to every crazy, it will evoke more crazy.

Not giving voice to the crazy isn't a double standard.

Jesus God... we truly are living in the Idiocracy.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:36 PM

41. true enough, JL

Hey, Ideological murderers are still just murderers.

Someone in another thread compared Eric Rudolph to Dorner. He too had people excusing and justifying and beseeching others to understand why he did what he did.

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Response to cali (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

51. Sometimes there's just no understanding the crazy

That's why they call it crazy. I'm betting the vast majority of the time there's no justifying or explaining crazy. But then Charlie Manson and Richard "The Night Stalker" Ramirez had their fans too. Eric Rudolph is prime crazy just like them. What's ideological to them is mostly crazy.

Killing people is a ridiculous way to prove how great you are, or how wronged you are. It really only proves there's a screw loose.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:44 PM

119. "People who kill other people are a tad crazy"? Not if they kill with drones, they're not.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #119)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:46 PM

120. Killing is killing

War is war. All war and killing is bad...

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 PM

181. Really? Are our servicemembers who have killed in wars crazy?

Are our police officers who have killed in the line of fire crazy?
Are pilots who operate drones that kill enemy combatants and end up with collateral damage crazy?
Should we not pay credence to those who do our killing for us?

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Response to shcrane71 (Reply #181)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 04:45 PM

197. All killing is wrong

From my POV, you'd have to be crazy to kill another human.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:42 PM

47. I'm pretty sure the "attack trolls" went after you for "For all we know, it's a staged event"...

I think the point is, that Dorner is NOT the ONLY villain

in this tawdry freak show.

For all we know, it's a staged event, so that massive
surveillance apparatus that Obama's been building can
document how private citizens respond and talk about
it on the internet.


Yes I have a capacity for distrusting impulsive rushes to
judgment mid-way into these kinds of unfolding stories,
where someone goes bonkers with guns ablazing.

I just want the WHOLE story, the WHOLE truth to be told,
not just a dime-store novel with ONE conspicuous villain.




Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

57. Yeah, that's more than a tad nutty...

Thanks for reading that far... you did far better than I!

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

66. Totally

and I think, more precisely, the use of the word "staged event"
is all too easily associated with the Newtown shooting "truthers".

This ^ was ^ a ^ huge ^ blunder ^ on ^ my ^ part

so huge I may still it seems, be tombstoned because of it,
eventhough I've made my clarification, corrections, apologies, etc.
over and over .. even Skinner is dredging it up to slap me down
with.

My daze may be numbered on DU I fear.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

67. If being banned from an InterTube community has you shaking in fear...

You have a hell of a lot more problems than being banned from an InterTube community.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:00 PM

75. Well, you're 39,500+ posts into DU

and you're saying it wouldn't bother you at all to be banned?

that would seem very odd to me, if you didn't give a rats ass if you were banned.

really?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:05 PM

82. I've been here nearly since the beginning...

And I have taken many a self-imposed "vacation" from DU. I've been gone for a couple of years or more... I only just started posting again.

That said, I have a real life... no, I wouldn't bat an eyelash... wouldn't concern me at all.

But I have a firm grasp on reality, and I know the rules, so the likelihood of me being banned is slim to none.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:03 PM

77. If you recognize al that, why make this thread?...

It seems disingenuous. Remember the first rule when you find yourself in a hole.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:19 PM

96. I didn't repeat the "offending" aspect of the prior OP

Skinner did.

I'm asking an entirely different question, which u apparently are missing.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:07 PM

84. You know, part of taking responsibility is to stop whining and playing victim.

If it was such a huge blunder to talk like a Sandy Hook Truther, why are you complaining that you drew such a negative response?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:36 PM

108. I edited my OP to remove "offending" text

and replaced it with a much clearer restatement of what
I was saying <--which continues to be ignored pretty much
altogether, but original MIS-statement is dredged back up as
a way of basically telling me to STFU about the Dorner affair
COMPLETELY, or risk being tombstoned.

I was actually happy to change it, because my restatement
was more clear than the original, in terms of the Dorner
rampage.

But now I'm not so happy that my restatement is being completely
ignored, my original mis-statement thrown back in my face, when
ever I even utter the word "Dorner" on DU.

BTW - my restated paragraph reads:
"For all we know, Dorner was set-up, caught-up in the
rampant corruption machine called the LAPD. I'm super
curious as to the back-story here, that's all. "

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:37 PM

110. Maybe you should just let this go.

Hard to see what you have to gain by picking at the scab.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:44 PM

118. Maybe you are right

esp. if I want to continue posting on DU.

This certainly has been an "educational" experience for me,
which I'm still "processing"

Thanks for the wise advice.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:44 PM

186. It's rather dangerous that so many people seem to find the Dorner back story

to be so interesting? I mean what if there's a silent majority that thinks America has gotten out-of-control, is run by corrupt agencies, corporations, and governing bodies? What if citizens wanted transparency and accountability from civil servants -- and that would include the civil servants who carry guns, not just first grade teachers.

Shit could get real then. Gotta stop any sort of dialogue on that.

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Response to shcrane71 (Reply #186)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:28 AM

191. Interesting commentary

and you are probably correct, in that there's some kind of eery connection between concerns about
"keeping the lid on" for as long as possible, and the Dorner rampage; that it might trigger ... well,
who knows what anymore. But I think I get what you are saying, tend to agree.

I DO know, just from observation of what's going down here and elsewhere on DU, regarding Dorner,
that whatever is getting touched in people is very scary to them, so they lash out rather viciously,
in response to certain questions being raised.

Then when I DO call them on that, they make further accusations, that I'm "playing the victim".

Pretty weird. I've been on DU over a decade, and don't recall ever this kind of disconnect from civil
discourse.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:49 PM

59. You want to see an Attack?

Be the one (Hi ) to refuse to pass judgement one way or the other till all is brought out in a court of law. And voice said thought!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:49 PM

61. This is the "new" DU -- You can't have discussions any more. You're always under attack.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:01 PM

76. Thank you for posting this

I want to know all about the back-story, learn what I can about the corrupt LAPD, and see Dorner brought to justice. Why anyone on DU would get all cranked up by people looking at the case in all it's complexities is beyond me.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #76)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:05 PM

81. Thank you.

It is more than a little fascinating to me how THIS mass shooter case
is so unique, that is starts to show fissions and cracks in the "Official"
facade we're all supposed to not question.
.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:04 PM

78. Dude, stop playing victim for your own stupid ass CT-lite post.

It was a mistake for you to say "for all we know the federal government staged" Dorner's killings.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:14 PM

91. Thanks for so studiously ignoring everything else I said

.. along with ignoring the questions I raised in this OP.

all because I mis-spoke on ONE minor aspect of the case, never
mind that I've cleared that up scores of times, over and over,
which is all available thru DU search, in case you missed them
all.

I also salute your steadfast refusal to consider for even a moment,
that there may be something to be learned by knowing more in depth
details as to why Dorner went postal. A remarkable accomplishment.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:16 PM

94. Perhaps if you stopped whining how people reacted to your literally insane post

things would get better.

You are not a victim. You posted something painfully stupid and crazy about a Democratic President on a Democratic political board, and you got flamed for it.

Predictably and justfiably so.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #94)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:40 PM

114. OK, I got flamed, and took the heat

Now I'd like to get around to the REAL point and central issue
I was raising; but apparently the fact that I made ONE stupid
comment means now I'm supposed to STFU about anything
and everything Dorner, including the original questions I was
raising and with this OP as well.

Did I get that right?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:06 PM

83. They can't parse LAPD's hipocrisy.

 

Crilliam H. Cosby Jr ‏@jcrillz

OH! REALLY? YOU DON'T SAY. MT @abc7newsBayArea: #LAPD Chief: To be targeted because of what you are, that is absolutely terrifying.

Retweeted by John C.onner

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:14 PM

92. To be perfectly honest, a good many of us come here ready to fight--

and look for the threads we're most able to do that in.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #92)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:39 PM

112. Take that back!!

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Response to randome (Reply #112)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:55 PM

148. .

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:26 PM

101. methinks you exaggerate a tad ...

Some of what you posted is sometimes true ..

None of what you posted is completely true ...

No different than anything else we see on DU ...

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:27 PM

102. Fine. You're curious. Look at the evidence.

Does it really need to be pointed out to you AGAIN?

Dorner waited 2 weeks to make his allegations about the LAPD. He made them the day AFTER his partner asked him to be reassigned.

A mere cursory examination of these facts strongly point to these allegations being made in retaliation for the 'shame' of his partner wanting to be rid of him.

That plus the fact that his ex-girlfriend described him as 'twisted' and 'paranoid' provide all the 'evidence' we need at DU to reasonably conclude that Dorner has nothing to offer on the subject of LAPD.

If you feel so strongly about the LAPD shortcomings, I suggest you find another avenue with which to change them. Because Dorner so far has NOTHING to say on the subject that can be taken seriously.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:29 PM

103. RW trolls got the memo to attack anyone who expressed the slightest concern

that perhaps LAPD contributed to this situation by being the unethical racist assholes that we all know they are.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #103)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:32 PM

106. Actually, the OP is the one who posted something akin to rightwing nuttery.

He repeated the Sandy Hook Truther line except he applied it to Dorner (suggested Obama staged the Dorner killings to help him abolish civil liberty in America), and then repeatedly whined when people flamed him for it.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #106)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:42 PM

116. Keep on keepin' on growlin' over that bone.

A well respected DUer once threatened to punch another DUer and carried on the threats via PM. That DUer was tombstoned. Said DUer was allowed back in the fold and apologized.

In fairness, I suggest that every time this DUer posts, you remind that person AND the community of the past unacceptable behavior. I'll PM you the name and the link to the banning if you'd like.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:44 PM

117. Well, the OP is the one who's still picking at that scab.

Serving himself a great big heaping of STFU would be the best thing to do in this case. Nothing to be gained--he's managed to get Skinner pissed at him.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #117)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:54 PM

121. The OP is not the only one who has been accused of supporting Dorner when they've done no such thing

The use of his experience is illustrative of the broader issue that he is addressing but many people prefer to keep it "all about him" while ignoring the intent of the OP.

Fortunately, there's some good stuff in this thread not related to personal attacks and one-upmanship.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:49 PM

159. The OP was again suggesting Dorner was framed even as his fourth victim was dying this

afternoon. Pretty much a troll.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:23 PM

135. Erm, one was years ago, another was days ago.

One profusely apologized, the other doubled down.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:32 PM

105. "At what point are we going to address police culture that created Dorner?"

 

Anonymous ‏@Occupythemob

Plz RT At what point are we going to address police culture that created #Dorner?"

Retweeted by fr0g5

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #105)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:15 PM

128. Bingo! When indeed. Like I've said elsewhere on DU,

this tale bares striking resemblance to the classic Frankenstein script,
where the LAPD "Labor-itory" seems to have outdone themselves.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:35 PM

107. I'm always interested in the back-story. Here's something

from an article by Glen Greenwald, written about 4 years ago, but applies to the present situation, IMO....

When it comes to Terrorism, discussions of motive have been declared more or less taboo from the start because of the dishonest equation of motive discussions with justification—as though understanding the reasons why X happens is to posit that X is legitimate and justifiable. Causation simply is; it has nothing to do with issues of morality, blame, or justification. Yet all that is generally permitted to be said in such situations is that Terrorists try to harm us because they’re Evil, and we (of course) are not, and that’s generally the end of the discussion.
 Glenn Greenwald. “Cause and Effect in the Terror War” 12/29/09




I think this applies to what you're talking about with the Dorner situation, Monkey. Maybe some people just don't want to look too closely into Dorner's allegations against the LAPD.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #107)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:08 PM

124. Wow. Now that IS spot-on. Amazingly relevant. Thanks. ~nt

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Response to truth2power (Reply #107)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:00 PM

150. And once that has become accepted as general practice

It can be used as a tool to control people with...and that is just what is happening....remember, you ether are with them or against them.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:42 PM

115. Yeah, that does seem weird.

Background info on the Newton shooter was freely discussed without those troubles.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:00 PM

122. Aside from the fact he's a murderer. I think the LAPD is a rolemodel for being corrupt, and

trigger happy.


So when some lunatic takes them on, I can see why people aren't exactly cheering for the LAPD.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:13 PM

126. Is strikingly similar to the classic Frankenstein tale

the LAPD "labor-itory" really outdid themselves with this one.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:36 PM

142. Damn! You have a very good point...it's sort of like the Tea Party

Let's face it..Tea Party is the same sort of thing, a monster birthed of an organizations inherent corruption. Their taking power would mean famine in the streets. Millions would likely die from their policies.

But I enjoy cheering them on as they and the Republicans feast on each other entrails.


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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #142)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:49 PM

146. hmm .. yah, them too. nicely put. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:35 PM

141. I really, really hate to wade into a mess like this, but here goes -

My quarter and a half's worth of thought on this based on what I've read of his manifesto, the actual evidence of what he's done, the cess pool that is the LAPD, and my own personal experiences with various types of heirarchal cultures that are prone to corruption.

1) Dornan's page, manifesto, and other writings and interviews with people who know/knew him suggest that he has very, very strong opinions on what he is and what the world should be, whether or not it really is that way.
He is also very smart and has developed a talent to activity related to warfare.
In my experience, people who function according to an overly strong self-identification to their personal worldview have, well, rather brittle filters when it comes to dealing with others in social interaction.
They don't actually see other people as people separate from that personal world.
They tend to have hair-trigger reactions to what is perceived as threatening, disrespectful, or condescending, and they tend to internalize and work up their agitation against those perceptions and eventually explode, convinced that the world is against them.
Their intentions and actions are always justified by the strength of the feelings that they hold about a subject or person.

2) LAPD as an entity has been a cess pool of corruption from when the city was transitioning from the old Ciudad de los Angeles to Mulholland and others turning it into a real-estate and oil field boom town - it was that way in the 1960's when my parents left LA, and so far as I can see, it never really changed over the years.
TPTB within love the image they are the "thin blue line" against the "masses of unwashed animals and speculators" that inhabit LA, and as with all hierarchal organizations, the attitudes seep downwards and have become so entrenched so that while there are quite a number of good people who are great police, the majority get stuck in morass that is "the culture" from the top.
If those good people don't play the "don't see nothin' game or don't have a thick enough skin to live with being constantly stepped on, they get taken down or driven out.
The corruption in the LAPD in itself is not a surprise, and is constantly an issue that has been discussed by concerned Angelinos for decades - my parents talked about it, my relatives talk about it, and when I worked up there occasionally, I saw it and discussed it with co-workers and friends.
Basically, while there have been efforts to clean up in the past, until those at the top - especially those established power bases within the city infrastructure and politics themselves - make a serious, almost generational effort to clean house, the corruption and police attitudes will not change.

3) From these two things, my comments start simple - Dornan ran afoul of "the LAPD culture".
He was too wound up in his personal world from the hurt of their casual treatment of him for being "a nail" (in their cultural view) to be able to step back and see what could be done to damage the LAPD without turning it into a personal vendetta.
And it is his vendetta and the threats of death that are making this whole situation "news".

But beyond his situation my complaint is this - why don't we instead discuss the hundreds of other former LAPD officers who were drummed out or who quit in disgust and did other things to strike back at the corruption in the force that drove them out - who wrote articles, provided evidence because they didn't fit in with a corrupt culture and who didn't get pissed off and go on a killing spree?
The hundreds who have raised their voices to complain, who have been ignored, but went on to make the best of their lives?
No.
We discuss an angry ex-cop with military training, an arsenal, and a hit list that could endanger thousands of people who had nothing to do with his situation.
And of course, it's "good TV" - like a Mob movie - it's a chase between an corrupt organization and an anti-hero who couldn't think beyond his own sense of revenge to become a murderer who bloodied their nose?

Other than the damage done to people who had nothing to do with this sorry, threat to the general public situation Dornan put himself in when he went on this spree, there's very little more he could have accomplished if he hadn't let his temper and thirst for revenge get in the way of his brain and pushed him "over the edge".
Certainly his actions have not been near any level of the heroic efforts the many police and civilians who, over the years, have worked to blow the lid on the corruption in the LAPD that seems to keep coming back because of that "thin blue line" attitude of theirs.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #141)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:01 PM

151. Thank you so much. You say it much better than I apparently

and you put your finger on the issue I was attempting to get at,
that if ever there was a time for a massive overhaul of LAPD, now
just might be it.

Thanks again.

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Response to haele (Reply #141)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:34 PM

184. +1 That was worth reading. Thank You. nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:37 PM

143. oh bullshit... You were not 'asking questions', you were creating conspiracies about President Obama

IMO, right wing conspiracies, just like the Obama did Newtown and Aurora. Your conspiracy of some 'double standard' has no more validity or basis in reality then the one about Obama creating this new shooting incident. Trying to make a hero out of this murderous asshole is not required in order for the bulk of people on DU to hate the LAPD... And yes, creating a conspiracy that this guy has been set up and he is just fighting the evil LAPD is in fact trying to make him a hero.

I'm sorry you think I'm one of the "Attack-Trolls" for calling you on your right wing conspiracy while on DU but... I sometimes do shit like that.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:41 PM

144. As I read through all these posts, a thought kept running in my mind,

why are so many afraid to look at something in a critical, open and unbiased way?
Don't take this the wrong way, but most of this, is just so petty, yes you did, no I didn't, crap.
Just saying.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:44 PM

145. (That) anyone caught in #LAPD's warpath is just collateral damage should be addressed by media.

 

Free Hammond ‏@Ghostpickles

the view of take down #Dorner at all costs, anyone caught in #LAPD's warpath is just collateral damage should be addressed by media.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:57 PM

149. Lost me at "(it's always a male it seems)" n/t

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #149)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:00 PM

167. There HAD to be at least one comment on that.

Thanks for volunteering.

I'd be glad to edit it, as soon as I receive a link with a story
like "Armed Woman goes berserk, now on mass shooting spree"

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #167)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:06 PM

169. Whatever

The fact that you had to take an unnecessary swipe at all ruined any point you were trying to make. The fact that you knew there "HAD to be at least one comment on that" betrays your motives in leaving the needless swipe as part of your OP.

My interest in your OP or continuing this conversation further ceased at that point.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #149)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:29 PM

182. Yeah, everyone knows gunwomen don't deserve national news coverage.

That's the only reason we never hear about them.

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Response to shcrane71 (Reply #182)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:34 AM

192. I'll take your word on that.

Gender isn't a relevant consideration in my opinion. Have a nice day.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:48 PM

158. This guy is like the Unabomber, not Robin Hood

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #158)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:55 PM

164. And the LAPD resembles Hitler's SS, more than the Andy Griffith Show.

Just ask Occupy LA.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #164)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:58 PM

166. Dorner is a murderer, not a folk hero

It's not exactly hidden that the LAPD is a corrupt organization, but that isn't this guy's "backstory." He wouldn't kill innocent civilians if it was.

FAIL.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #166)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:08 PM

170. "It's not exactly hidden that the LAPD is a corrupt organization"

Sometimes it becomes necessary to re-state the obvious, when that
which is obvious is being studiously ignored and eluding the attention
of otherwise inquiring minds.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:35 PM

176. As much attention was given to it as has been given to others' reasons for murdering people.

A reference and some back story as to why someone is murdering people.

Later, after he's been killed or killed himself or been arrested, there is usu. more story in the media on the background. But the real story is the murdering of people.

Read back about McVeigh's terrorism on the fed govt bldg in OK. The story about WHY he did it was mentioned, as soon as they discovered who it was. The back story was told, but was not hashed over, and was certainly NOT given any credence, since the back story is NEVER a reason for murder.

They are two totally separate issues and things and stories, for different times, and for different purposes.

We certainly didn't go into a in-depth discussion of Ruby Ridge while trying to hunt down McVeigh and his cohorts.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:10 PM

178. The good guys with guns got the bad guys with guns and stopped the evil-doing.

Any speculation or questioning of reports and Internet confessions made by aforementioned bad guys makes you a bad person. Or to put the above sentence in Merican/DU newspeak:

The good guys with guns have been trained. They know what's going on. They will keep the public safe from bad guys and evil-doers. Don't question the GOOD GUYS. They're gitten the BAD guys.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:32 PM

183. Where do you get off calling people trolls?

They have a difference of opinion.

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Response to CBHagman (Reply #183)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:45 PM

187. Squirrel!!!

Oh did you say something?

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Response to CBHagman (Reply #183)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:34 AM

193. Many of these "opinions" consist almost entirely of wanting me to just STFU.

Which isn't an opinion that I have much respect for. It's just
obtuse over-reactive rudeness.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:47 PM

188. Here's the difference...

Dorner went on his spree FOUR years after being terminated.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 PM

189. can't you people spell???

DUH! It's spelled "Donner Party." LET'S PARTY!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 AM

195. Democrats can hold two thoughts at once. Republicans -- not so much.

That's why.

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