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Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:18 PM

Would the nation be better off if the south would go away?

Would you personally prefer it if the south would just quietly go away?

309 replies, 71434 views

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Reply Would the nation be better off if the south would go away? (Original post)
Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 OP
LAGC Jan 2012 #1
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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:20 PM

1. Well, the Republicans would never win another Presidential election...

...without them, that's for sure.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:25 PM

13. I posted this in another thread, but I think it is relevant here too.

Think about this.

The south for most of its political history was a democratic stronghold. This was because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and he helped end slavery and save the country. Lincoln and the Republicans were so hated, that during the 1860 Presidential election, Lincoln's name wasn't even placed on the ballot in Alabama. For most of our history, there is nothing on earth meaner or or more blood-thristy than an old traditional southern Democrat. Because of Lincoln, from 1860 on, the Democrats controlled the south. In history, the south is even referred to as the "solid block" because it was so incredibly Democratic.

Then during the 1950s and 60s, a new breed of Democrats emerged. And YES THEY WERE PRIMARILY FROM THE NORTH. They supported civil rights, women's rights, the rights of workers etc. etc. etc.

And what happened?

From the 1960s to the 1980s the South went from a solid Democratic voting block to a southern Republican block! Old time dangerous southern Democrats like Strom Thurmond even changed parties in protest of equality for all! Today the south is solidly Republican. (What a coincidence!) Amazingly when I lived in South Carolina there were some very young people there who didn't even know that Thurmond spent the majority of his life as a Democrat. I had to explain to them that he only changed parties at the very end of his political career to try and stop people like his biracial daughter from having the opportunity for equal rights under the constitution. It is really amazing!

What ever side is in favor of education, science, equal rights, equality and social justice.... the south is on the other side.


Try this. Google a map of the 1860 Presidential election. And then google a map of the 2008 election. Look at the areas of the country where Lincoln and Obama did well (The North). Look where they did poorly (The South). It's almost scary how identical the two maps are for elections held 148 years apart.


Presidential Election 1860 (Lincoln in blue)



Presidential Election 2008 (Obama in red)


I often think I could get into a time machine and go off 500 years into the future. I would then look at a presidential political map of the last election. And with one look at the south, I would know which side is in the best interest of the country and all people. And which side is ignorant, racist, sexist, mean, etc. etc. etc.

Yes.. it is that simple. And for some reason, we are all suppose to dance around the giant pink elephant in the room and ignore how incredibly bad the south, its history, its culture and the political viewpoints of its people have been for America.


By definition, the confederate flag is the most anti-American symbol in the history of this country. To any historically accurate and objective American, (regardless of race) it should be far more offensive than even a Nazi war flag. But of course we can't correctly say that... because we have to protect THE HISTORIC TRUTH ABOUT THE SOUTH.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #13)


Response to FlaGatorJD (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:39 PM

32. Was there anything there historically inaccurate or untrue? nt

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:46 PM

43. The South couldn't do it without some of the MidWest

That is why the MidWest is even important than the South. The South cannot do it ALONE.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:54 PM

48. Agreed.

But even the midwest isn't close to as bad as the south.

As an example.

Democratic Presidential candidates in places like Alabama and Mississippi won't even get 10% of the white vote. It's that bad.

To put the numbers in proper perspective, in the 2004 Presidential election, Republican Presidential nominee George Bush had a greater percentage of the black vote in a battle ground state like Ohio, than John Kerry had of the white vote in Alabama and Mississippi.

And the problem is only getting worse.


When LBJ (who ironically was from Texas) said that by supporting equality for everyone he was giving the South away to the GOP for a generation he was wrong. He UNDERESTIMATED the hatred. It looks like he handed the South to the GOP for centuries beyond.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:37 AM

243. WRONG.

The reddest state is Utah... which is NOT in the South.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #243)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:58 AM

247. No... You are wrong my friend.

The South doesn't appear as red as it actually is because they have large black populations which vote democratically. Basically all the whites vote republican. All of the black vote democratically. This voting trend gives the South an artificial boost when final numbers are tallied.

By comparison, Utah's final state voting numbers appear worse than those found in the deep south because Utah doesn't have a large black minority population to boost the final totals.



But if we look at the white voting trends among Utah compared to the deep south we get a far different result.

Here are the numbers

In 2008 31% of white voters in Utah voted for Barack Obama. (by the way, that's actually a relatively good number)

Meanwhile here is his % of the white vote in the deep south



Alabama 10%
Arkansas 30%
Georgia 23%
Louisiana 14%
Mississippi 11%
Oklahoma 29%
S. Carolina 26%
Texas 26%
Utah 31%


Now, please take a good look at Utah and compare it to Alabama, Mississippi, and the other George Wallace segregationist states. Its really not even close. In fact if Obama had the white support in any of these southern states states that he had in Utah, he would have won all of the southern states GOING AWAY!

I don't think many people are aware that Obama has a greater percentage of white support in even a place like Utah, than he does in Texas, Georgia or other more traditional deep southern states.


Why does Obama get 31% of the white vote in a rural, heavily mormon state like Utah. But only 10% of the white vote in Alabama? And only 11% of the white vote in Mississippi? Only 14% of the white vote in Louisiana?

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:18 PM

56. A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:27 AM

229. and this from a Host of GD

lovely. just stunning.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #229)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:20 PM

271. Hosts only have power to lock off-topic posts.

I believe this thread was sent to a jury, who voted 3-3.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #271)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:28 PM

273. I believe you are correct --

However I do question some of the threads all of the GD hosts have allowed to remain open in comparison to the ones all of you have chosen to lock. Seems, arbitrary at best and at worst it would appear that there is an agenda . . . ymmv.

The SoP is broadly interpreted to say the least.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:18 PM

100. Racism, sexism, ignorance - only in the South

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:27 AM - Edit history (1)

If you got rid of the South, those problems would disappear. After all, those problems you mentioned ONLY exist in the South. It's only in the South that you see creationism in schools. You don't see racism anywhere else. For example, you would NEVER see a bunch of white police savagely beating a black man in California, sparking a massive riot after those officers were acquited.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #100)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:08 AM

146. Nice try!

Of course there are issues with racism, homophobia, sexism, wage disparity, inequality etc. in all parts of the country. But when it comes to political discourse and voting patterns, to say these elements (as well as many more) don't dominate the south more than other regions of the country is to DENY REALITY.

When the GOP saw the Southern Presidential success of George Wallace in the 1968 Presidential election, they decided to move the party in the direction of the Wallace supporters. GOP operatives called it "The Southern Strategy." Does it work in the North. YES. Does it work in the MidWest. YES. Does it work in California. YES. But there is a reason it is called the "The Southern Strategy" and not the "Boston Strategy" or the "California Strategy."

Arguments like what you stated in your post represent a "red herring." And in my experience they are made by individuals who don't really wish to engage in the blatant reality staring us all in the face with regard to this issue.



Question.

On a per capita basis... do more people who believe Obama is a socialist muslim live in Alabama or Los Angeles County? (See my point?)


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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #146)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:24 AM

153. you realize that Democrats have done well in the South?

Carter swept EVERY state in the South. Clinton and Obama have both picked up Southern states. We've elected progressive Democrats to Congress.

So yes, you are broad-brushing.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #153)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:20 AM

183. Actually, again if you look at the numbers...


Democrats are getting killed in the south. What began at the Presidential level has now worked its way down the ladder.

Democratic congressional candidates increasingly do not do well in the south. And progressive candidates do especially poorly. Thanks largely to gerrymandering, the only progressive democrats we are seeing coming out of the south do so from special carved out black districts. You can't find a majority white congressional district that has elected a white progressive to congress anywhere in a traditional deep south state. Go ahead and try to find one.

I have some data that I need to post here later. It shows that among house members who define themselves as members of the tea party, the overwhelming majority of them( 71% if i recall) are from the south.

You are making some statements that simply are not true and not backed up by current data.


No.. Democrats are not doing well in traditional Confederate southern states.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #100)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:25 AM

154. You DO realize that without a sarcasm thingy,

people will not get how you are saying this, right?

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #154)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:28 AM

157. fixed

I thought it would have been obvious, but you are correct. Sometimes I forget how many people are sarcasm-challenged

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:20 PM

3. I would be happy if you were to self-delete your OP. Region bashing isn't very nice ...


Thank you.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:23 PM

5. +1

Another please delete. This South bashing serves no useful purpose.

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Response to Melissa G (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:55 AM

170. where did -I- bash any one?

truly, -I- am the one being bashed. Please, do read on.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #170)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:39 AM

244. Would the nation be better off if the south would go away?

Bless your heart.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #244)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:48 AM

245. honest question -- or would you prefer us to go away with a BANG ?!

bless Your heart, dahlin

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:23 PM

8. I think every other post I've seen from this poster has been 'self deleted'

Which is strange, but at least she knows how to delete. Now let's see if she realizes south bashing is a form of bigotry.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:54 AM

169. at least I know how to read the whole thread. Let's see if you do.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #169)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:06 AM

176. People are responding to your insensitive and uncalled for TEXT IN THE OP, but ...


I think that you already do know that.

Posting a divisive OP that has offended multiple people and then trying to explain it away later in the comments after several dozen people have said that the OP was bashing the South isn't going to cut it.

If you had wanted to discuss the history of the South then you would have done that in the OP and not waited until your comment #78.

Thank you for your time.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #176)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:39 PM

258. If I wanted to discuss the history of the south, I would have posted in The American History group

where, I would think it would belong . . . This, however is a question posted concerning current events on DU and in the nation.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:24 PM

10. Region bashing is an indication

of extreme small mindedness and bigotry.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)


Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:31 PM

22. +1

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:34 PM

26. Exactly. This isn't a discussion about political difference or other differences. It a broad brush

attack against a Region of the country.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:45 PM

41. I think that is her point

trust me, Tuesday is NOT bashing the south, she is sick and tired of others on DU doing the bashing.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:22 PM

61. is it bashing when it is true?

The vast majority of Southern whites always vote for the pro-racism party. Before 1964 that was the Democrats, after 1964 it was the Republicans.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #61)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:23 PM

105. So that makes broad-brushing ok?

Broad-brush attacks on the South seem to be jut fine here on DU

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:28 AM

158. In 1968, it was also George Wallace's American Independent Party

Wallace took 5 Southern states in 1968. Nixon took most of the others. Interestingly, Texas went for Humphrey (possibly because of the Johnson connection).

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:28 PM

110. +1000

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:40 PM

122. you are damn skippy! Region Bashing is not very nice at all.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:56 AM

172. I wish I could. I wish there had been no need to start this thread. You are right

Region bashing isn't very nice. Thank you.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #172)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:12 AM

179. You are playing a game. Your OP is insensitive to us Southerners here at DU. I've emailed Skinner.


I hope you've enjoyed your evening trying to pit the North against the South.
I've found it to be highly disgusting.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #179)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:05 AM

220. I emailed him, too. Over a week ago. Let us see how quickly he replies to you --

I am still waiting for my response. Good luck to you.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:01 AM

174. Thank you

Fed up with this region-bashing garbage.

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Response to The Genealogist (Reply #174)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:08 AM

222. Please note: -I- bashed nothing. -I- only want to determine where -I- belong.

Thank you for your concern.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:21 PM

4. I would prefer that the South come to its senses.

There are some very beautiful parts of the South. Environmentally fascinating. Agriculturally rich.

Just needs some educating.

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Response to dimbear (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:30 PM

65. YES. Hopefully one day a Democratic presidential candidate will win North Carolina.

Oh wait.....

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #65)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:24 AM

152. Actually if you look at demographics


Obama won North Carolina predominately because North Carolina (and Virginia) have seen lots of new people move into the area. His win represented a demographic change in the state. Not some enlightenment among native southern voters. In fact among native southern voters across the deep south, they are actually trending more Republican, not less so.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #152)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:35 AM

159. I guess that means in '76, there was a huge influx of enlightened voters

Who then immediately moved back after voting for Carter.

Then some of them moved back to vote for Clinton.

That sound right?

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #159)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:55 AM

171. Fair point, however...



1976 was the last time the south voted heavily for a Democratic candidate. Of course we had a Georgia governor on the ticket which was a big help . In 1976, the Southern Strategy was still new, having first been used by Nixon on a Presidential level in 1972. Of course with Ronald Reagan in 1980, even though he was from California, he easily blew out Jimmie Carter in the south, based largely on the southern strategy used by Nixon in 72. Since then the GOP has owned the south.

To be fair, despite perhaps the most favorable political climate in modern political history(Watergate), Jimmie Carter still only barely beat Gerald Ford (popular vote) in 1976.. Gerald Ford was closing on Carter so fast that many Presidential historians have argued that had the election been held 1 week later, Ford likely would have won.


Bill Clinton won in North Carolina in 1992 only because it was 3 person race. Ross Perot took a good percentage of the white vote away from Clinton, and as a result the Republicans didn't hit the percentage of white voters they normally win in modern Presidential elections. This is how Clinton won states like North Carolina and Montana. Without Perot, those states (and several more) likely would have been GOP strongholds.

This was also the reason Bill Clinton was elected to the Presidency with only 42% of the vote. In fact Bill Clinton is very interesting in the history of Presidential elections in that he got elected to the Presidency twice, and neither time hit 50% of the vote.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #171)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:31 AM

208. Clinton lost in NC in 1992


Bush: 1,134,661

Clinton: 1,114,042

It was the only competitive state he lost.

I love correcting someone's factual mistake first thing in the morning.

THANK YOU!

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Response to taterguy (Reply #208)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:53 AM

218. Good call! Thanks for the correction.

I can't believe I overlooked that! I got NC and GA confused. This is what happens when you are moving to fast. I should probably shut it down after 8pm!

I believe we should all have an obligation to be as factually accurate as possible when we are in the forums. As often as I look at and study Presidential elections, I still can't believe I missed such an apparent and easy mistake.


Again, thank you for help.

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Response to dimbear (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:06 AM

144. Carter SWEPT the South in '76

I know that was 30+ years ago, but it shows it can be done.

Also, Clinton and Obama both picked up some Southern states

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #144)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:09 AM

178. Its not that simple


Carter's win in 1976 was nearly 40 years ago. The southern strategy was still new. We know Carter would not have the same success today as he did in 1976, because since that time, we have nominated 2 other southern candidates, (Gore, Clinton). And neither candidate ran well among southern whites.

Plus, in 1980, when Ronald Reagan used the southern strategy, Jimmie Carter was wiped out in the south among southern whites, and Reagan was a hollywood actor from California! I also need to point out, (as I did in my other post) that Carter was running in the most favorable political environment or a democrat since at least 1964, in that he was running against Watergate. (And even then... he still ALMOST LOST!)

Clinton won in the south because there was a third party candidate which lessoned the impact of the white vote. This allowed him to skate by in several states that he would not have won had it been a traditional two party contest. Without Perot on the ballot, a lot of Clintons southern state wins would have been red states in 1992 and 1996.

Obama won NC and VA because of changing demographics. Not changing minds. NC and VA are battle-ground states today because they have seen lots of new residents. The residents moving to the state are more progressive than the traditional population. Among native white southerners, they are actually trending MORE REPUBLICAN. Not less.


I truly would like to believe it is possible in modern Presidential elections to have a Democrat honestly run strongly in the south. But its not likely to happen. What changes we have seen in the south are due to demographic changes and the "old traditional southern voter" literally dying off. Unfortunately, that appears to be the only way the south's terrible political history is going to be reversed.


Good discussion!

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Response to dimbear (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 04:01 PM

288. Unfortunately, around here they'e against "educating"

They're into home-schooling, creationism, etc.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:23 PM

6. No

Coming from a country where Quebec gets itchy feet every 20 years. no. Idiots abound north and south, but in the end there is strength and common values in unity.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:23 PM

7. Would the nation be better off if we stopped generalizing?

Are there GOP assholes by the truckloads and bigots here? Yes. Are there educated liberals? Yes.
Different from elsewhere in the US? No.

Stop with the South bashing.

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Response to CurtEastPoint (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:40 PM

123. thank you

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:23 PM

9. No... because then a large chunk of DU members wouldn't have a decent place to live.

Why don't you give up being a bigot and go back to your day job?

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:37 PM

67. why don't you get a clue and check out

post #50. don't worry, I don't alert and I don't vote. your insinutiations about me are slightly insulting.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:50 AM

213. You are insulting. You are insulted. Seems to be a lot of that going around.

If you don't want to have people respond to insulting posts, you have 2 options:

1- Don't Post

2- Or make your intentions clear. Because obviously, I'm not the only one who had an issue with what you wrote.

As for "alerts". I don't really care one way or the other what you choose to do.


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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #213)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:10 AM

223. I don't know how much clearer I can make my questions. Are you really telling another DUer to not

post?

May I suggest that you have chosen a very apt and approriate username.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:24 PM

11. I predict this thread will disappear in 5...4...3...2...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:41 PM

35. That makes you about a thousand times more psychic than Miss Cleo.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:49 PM

47. Three of my fellow jurors voted to leave it.

Go figure.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:38 PM

68. you would be wrong. I know. I have tried that method. Please see my post #50 in this thread.

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:24 PM

12. There are a lot of good Democrats in the south.

Also I can order a Pimm's Cup without getting a puzzled expression from the bar.

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Response to Robb (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:42 PM

124. indeed

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:25 PM

15. Please stop

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Response to blogslut (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 PM

126. I wish it would. --

::sigh::

I truly wish it could, at least, get its own group and get off the main scroll.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:26 PM

16. Obama got 43% of the vote in Mississippi, 45% in South Carolina, and 40% in Louisiana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008

That's a lot of Democratic voters that you want to just "quietly go away".

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

51. You are missing the point.


That is only because of the rather large black population of each of the states.

Among white voters, Obama received....

Alabama (10%), Mississippi (11%), Louisiana (14%) South Carolina (22%)


In Alabama, 9 out of 10 white voters voted against the Democratic party. That is absurd. Even in a place like Vermont or Massachusetts, 9/10 voters don't vote Democrat. And this issue isn't just with Obama. If I recall, John Kerry was actually even worse in the South among southern whites. Heck, Al Gore couldn't even carry his own state (TN) in 2000.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #51)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:20 PM

57. So you just want the white Southners to go away.

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Response to Synicus Maximus (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:51 PM

76. No, I'm not saying that.


I just find it sad that such a large voting block of Americans could be so easily swayed generation after generation based on hatred, fear and their own lack of education and knowledge with regard to the world around them.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #51)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:21 PM

58. OH, so it's mostly *black* Democratic voters who should "quietly go away".

Well, that's very different. My apologies.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #58)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:40 PM

69. I haven't said anyone should "go away."


My complaint has been that in my view our country has ignored what is going on in the South with regards to voting patterns for far too long.

I think people are afraid to talk about it. Addressing it makes the country feel uncomfortable. But the fact is the base of the GOP is the south. But not just mainstream Republicanism. The majority of the hateful, racist, anti-gay bigotry themes in our political system arise from the south and southern politicians. Most of the anti-science, ignorant and inaccurate themes introduced into our political discourse are southern based.

The Tea Party is ALMOST ENTIRELY a southern movement.

And as I pointed out in another post, the historical voting patterns in this region are so transparent it is not even argued.

Robert E Lee is not an American Hero. He is a person who betrayed his country and led hundreds of thousands of people to their death trying to destroy our great nation.

By historical definition, the Confederate flag is the most anti-American symbol in the history of the country.

Living a southern rural lifestyle does not make you more of an American than living in large coastal northeast city.

Southern states pride themselves on being anti-federal government. Yet the majority of Southern states actually receive more aid from the Federal Government then what they pay in taxes. I honestly don't think citizens of Alabama even know that they are subsidized by the evil, liberal yankees living in Boston, Massachusetts... but they are!


Trust me, I could go on.


Like I have said before, we are all suppose to pretend the giant "pink elephant" in the room isn't there. I simply choose not too. I am not saying anyone should just go away. But I do believe these absurd Southern cultural traditions and misguided, ridiculous Southern history lessons can't be stopped.... until people are at least willing to discuss facts. Instead of ignoring them.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #69)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:45 PM

127. Your concern has been duly noted and taken under advisement.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #127)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:17 AM

150. Good comeback!

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #69)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:02 AM

141. Easy there on the paternalism, chief

Here's a suggestion: when you non-southerners actually integrate your neighborhoods, finally get rid of your ghettos, stop electing winners like Pete Wilson (remember him?) and Peter King, stop exploiting low-wage immigrant labor (especially nannies, construction, and lawn care), take hold of the corporations incorporated in YOUR states, and work on the massive environmental disasters in your backyards, then you get to criticize us.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #141)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:15 AM

149. I'm sorry but that is just not true.


If the rest of the Nation (Northeast, West Coast in-particular) had the same voting patterns as southern whites, this country would be in a much worse position.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #149)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:37 AM

160. It's not?

I must have missed the part where all those things I mentioned had happened. Oh, I get it. It's cool if you berate us for our problems, but if we deign to point out not all is well in your parts, we're not telling the truth. Good to know.

Yeah, I don't know that the rest of the country is much different. If that were true, reliably blue states wouldn't be slashing education and health care funding due to short-sighted fiscal policies, the homeless in those areas would never be marginalized or mistreated, massive foreclosures would not be swamping their housing markets, there wouldn't be massive giveaways to attract companies as part of the nationwide race to the bottom, there would be no gang problems, and those areas wouldn't be gigantic markets for illegal drugs. I guess none of that is a problem, though, right?

You can talk about us all day long, but our problems are out in the open. We were forced to deal with them and we are. Can you honestly say the same?

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #160)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:47 AM

166. You will NEVER find creationism being introduced outside of the South

Only ignorant rubes in the south would try to introduce creationism into public schools. You'll never see that in states like Indiana or Minnesota.

Oh yeah...


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Response to Hugabear (Reply #166)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:05 AM

175. Hahaha

Or Pennsylvania!

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #166)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:26 PM

272. Idiots like Bachmann are the exception in Minnesota.

Many Minnesota Republicans are to the LEFT of many southern "Democrats". My own state rep, Morrie Lanning, is one of them. Around here he is considered a moderate conservative. Down south he would be called an evil commie because he opposed Pawlenty's cuts to the HHS budget.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #160)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:32 AM

184. I think we are missing the point.



I live in a red state. I am not hear to defend blue states. I am simply pointing out FACT with regard to voting patterns and attempting to explain why such factual voting patterns are occurring. This is not a claim that a utopian society exists outside of the deep south.

I think to some degree, we have several posters here with a chip on their shoulder and don't want to address the issue head on.



Please anser this specific question?

In 2008, which was a strong Democratic year, in wake of all that was happening, how is it even mathmatically possible for the Democratic Presidential candidate to only receive 10% of the white vote in Alabama?

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #184)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:38 PM

284. I'll answer it

The Democratic Party barely represents the white working class. Yes, I do mean barely. The viewpoint of the national party tends to be that whatever is good for professionals is good for the country at large. That's why Democrats have issues in the deep south and the midwest. By forsaking an older lunch-pail liberalism, the party has given racism space to breathe.

You know, it was inevitable that the south would be lost for a time after the Civil and Voting Rights Acts. It wasn't inevitable that it would be as long as it has. The south has always been winnable when you talk about winnable issues. Harping on evil southerners and racism would probably go over a lot better if it was tied to improved work conditions and pay rather than free trade and a revolving door between Wall Street and the White House.

By the way, the south isn't monolithic. There are huge differences between a state like North Carolina and a state like Alabama.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #284)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:02 PM

285. Good post!



I actually agree with almost everything you wrote.

My only objection is... does the GOP represent the working class?

Remember even issues like the NAFTA and GATT free trade agreements which were done under Clinton, required the democratic president to break with his left flank and join Republicans. The Republican party has destroyed the working class. And yes, the democrats have been right there with them, except for occasionally the far left, which is the faction of the party that is most poisonous to the south.

Here is what I don't understand. If you are a white male married with one young child working full time at a Walmart in Biloxi Mississippi, why would you be opposed to the affordable care act? Purely by fact alone, this single example should represent someone MOST likely to support Obama-care. But instead the opposite is true.

There's a book called "What's the Matter With Kansas" that tries to explain this increasing problem, where people literally vote against their own interest. Or people use peripheral issues like gay rights, NRA, religion, etc. to determine voting patterns while the more important economic issues are left on the roadside.

We saw this in George Bush's 1988 campaign which was partially built around the notion "Don't burn the flag!" What? What does that have to do with anything. But it played well in rural America. It polled well in the south.

By they way, although the theme of this thread and discussion is about the south, this is not just a southern based issue. I see this same demographic group in my state, and when I ask about Obama care (as just an example) the response is very similar to what I am likely to find in Alabama or Georgia.

By the way, you are right about the south not being monolithic. I wrote about this in another thread about how we define the Deep south.

Again good post. I agree with a lot of your points. Good discussion.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #285)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:48 PM

305. They don't

Last edited Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:18 AM - Edit history (2)

The GOP doesn't represent any economic interest except for the very wealthy and professionals somewhat. The trouble is that, with some exceptions, the Democratic Party really isn't very different except that it's more professional oriented. I suspect the major issue with the Democratic Party is the source of funds. If you don't toe the predominant neoliberal line, it gets hard to get funded.

Racism, xenophobia, and general extremism rise in direct proportion to economic instability (instability is not the word I want, but I'm blanking on the correct word). People are more willing to buy into these ideals when they don't feel that they're on firm ground. Racism is tried and true way of assigning false blame while hiding the real culprits. I think of that end speech of "The American President" where Michael Douglas talks about taking a group of middle class voters and telling them that some scapegoat is responsible for their problems. Sorkin really nailed that one perfectly.

We're cool. I don't like seeing the south singled out for national problems because I think it's a cop-out. All too often it's been used as a means of showing one's liberal credentials, by south bashing, while conveniently ignoring the same problems outside the south. I don't mind if people address these issues on a national scale, but scapegoating will never be productive if we really want to address the actual problems.

Read economic instability as economic insecurity. Wow, it took a long while for that word to finally come to me.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #160)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:10 AM

191. "I don't know that the rest of the country is much different."

I do.

I've been through 47 states. (Alaska, Maine, and Hawaii, I'll visit soon!)

You know what the north calls it when a gay, transvestite, mayor takes a black man, out on a date, in Oregon?

We call it Friday, or "date night".

Yes, the south is forced to confront their past.

As is the north.

The north isn't as defensive about it.

Yes, racism exists everywhere. Homophobia exists everywhere. Sexism exists everywhere.

The south is defensive about it. The south is haunted by it. The south is bothered by "regionalism".

It's kind of like the difference between accusing two men of racism and getting the following answers:
1. I'm not a racist, I have black friends!
2. I try to fight my racist cultural history, and learn from my friends!
3. Race doesn't matter to me!

The first is a racist. The second also is, but is aware of it. The third is also a racist.

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Response to boppers (Reply #191)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:29 AM

195. What the hell are you trying to say? Here in Houston Texas we elected an openly gay mayor!


And I can tell you when she takes her partner out on Friday night it is called 'date night'.

Btw, Houston Texas is in the DEEP South.

Yes, racism exists everywhere. homophobia exists everywhere. and sexism exists everywhere - BUT also acceptance and understanding and LOVE also exists everywhere too



Annise Danette Parker (born May 17, 1956) is an American politician and the mayor of Houston since January 2, 2010. She served as an at-large member of the Houston City Council from 1998 to 2003 and city controller from 2004 to 2009.

In the 2011 election, Parker won a second term as Houston's Mayor, by defeating Fernando Herrera, Jack O'Connor, Dave Wilson, Kevin Simms, and Amanda Ulman

Parker is Houston's second female mayor, and the first elected openly gay mayor of a major U.S. city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annise_Parker

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #195)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:55 AM

198. Ah, Texas, always thinking they're "first", or "bigger".

It's soooo cute, in that childlike way of your kid "putting on a play". Portland, Oregon had an openly gay Mayor in 2009, and he rose up like Parker, been elected since 2005.

Aside from that:
"acceptance and understanding and LOVE also exists everywhere too" It's a great message, and it matters. A lot. It's HELLA HARD for GLBTQ folks to find support in the south, but if you can find them before you kill yourself, the south has some of the best GTBTQ networks, but I think this is because the south is so harsh.

It's a bit like claiming the south is a great place for black people, because they've built up so many systems to deal with the hatred, violence, cruelty and oppression, of the south.

It's a bit like claiming you have the best underground railroad.

For GLBTQ.

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Response to boppers (Reply #198)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:02 AM

200. I did NOT say that we were 'first' or 'bigger', all I'm saying is that Texas (the South) is not ...


as intolerant as some folks might think that it is.



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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #200)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:20 AM

207. "the first elected openly gay"

#195

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Response to boppers (Reply #207)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:35 AM

210. Huh? That was an excerpt from Wikipedia.


You left out the rest of the quote: " ... the first elected openly gay mayor of a major U.S. city.
Doesn't mean that we were the 'first' city.

And what gripe do you have with that?

I did not post my previous comment to brag that we were the first, I posted just to say that down here in the South we are not as intolerant as most folks think we are.

Btw, Houston is the the fourth-largest city in the United States - I can't help that

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Response to boppers (Reply #191)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:30 PM

282. Bull

The only reason we get defensive is because we get condescended to about our past with no recognition of your own. Where have most of the race riots in American history occurred? I'll give you a hint: it's not the south. Where was the worst rioting over busing? Again, it wasn't the south. Didn't California just pass a big, old amendment to ban gay marriage? Why, yes, I believe they did! Doesn't liberal Oregon ban same-sex marriage? Why yes it does! Sure, they have the separate-but-equal version called civil unions, but, as we're always reminded, separate but equal is unequal.

Fix your own backyard, then feel free to lecture us. When your environment is clean, when your people aren't exploited, when bigotry isn't common place, when your ghettos are gone, and everything is just utopia, feel free to lecture us.

You can bash us all day long, but you won't change shit in this country without us. You make not like that, but reality doesn't care what you like.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #282)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 06:03 AM

306. The race riots occurred in cities.

Same with bus riots.

The south has less of those.

"Fix your own backyard, then feel free to lecture us. When your environment is clean, when your people aren't exploited, when bigotry isn't common place, when your ghettos are gone, and everything is just utopia, feel free to lecture us. "

Feel free to visit.

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Response to boppers (Reply #306)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 12:41 PM

308. And your point is?

Cities may have been the localized site, but the region sure wasn't the south. Nice dodge. I appreciate the effort, but the fact remains that race riots and busing riots were all about how those good, nonsouthern upstanding citizens felt about the black people in their midst. One can pretend that it's all sweetness and light outside the south, but a long, long history of rioting and oppression indicates otherwise.

I've visited. Color me less than impressed when it comes to your version of societal harmony.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:40 PM

70. who said -I- wanted them to go away?

where did I say that?

I am one of them.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:28 PM

17. yes.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:30 PM

20. No.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 PM

116. How about the South joins the US, then?

Or maybe just the 20th century?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #116)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:06 AM

143. Makes no sense.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #143)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:28 AM

156. North Carolina GOP: Public Hanging For Abortionists

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002233447

Arkansas Democrat's cat killed, painted with "liberal" - meets defination of a "Hate Crime"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12516105

Oklahoma Republican seeks to ban use of aborted fetuses in food products
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12516045

Update: Copy of statement and letter re Georgia election ballot challenge filed against Pres Obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12515342


Sounds fairly un-American & pre-20th century to me...

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:28 PM

18. Attacking a whole region like this is uncalled for.......

Your post isn't about a debate. It is about calling out a whole region and "telling them to go away."

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:49 PM

46. way to misread the question

she is asking YOU and the rest of this site the question, not saying it should happen. It is heartening that many are at least misreading it in a good way (saying not to call out the whole region) but she is NOT saying this is what should happen, she is asking who on DU thinks it should.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:41 PM

71. where did I tell anyone to go away?

I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I asked a question, actually 2 questions.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:14 AM

226. please point out where -I- attacked anyone. All, -I- did was ask a couple of questions.

your quotes are not warranted and can NOT be attributed to me for -I- never said such a thing. NEVER!

I worry about your reading comprehension skills, really -I-do.

and on that You may quote me.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:28 PM

19. No

There, I said it. Hiding your post is not the same as standing up to you and speaking my truth.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:26 PM

107. thank you.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:30 PM

21. Not a chance

I personally prefer the United States to include all of us.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:42 PM

72. me too.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:32 PM

23. that would be sad



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Response to handmade34 (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:27 PM

109. yes, it would

very sad

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:32 PM

24. No, the south should not go anywhere.

But kinda surprised this is still open.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:38 PM

30. 3/3 decision.

Crazy!

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:00 PM

78. why are you surprised? you of all people?

talk about southern history belongs in GD?! really?!

talk of being related to Civil war soldiers is relevant to GD?! really?! why? how?

How are these topics relevant to GD's SoP?

A Civil War Group could be started for those interested. There is a Southern Democrat group available for those interested.

I would contend that my question is more relevant to GD because I am asking for Current Analysis of DUers. I don't have a poll feature available or this would have been a chance for anonymus voting and if those who so chose wanted to comment, they could have so done.

well, the door was opened, all I did was walk through it. Alerting does no good. You know this. I told you about this days ago.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #78)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:02 PM

82. No - Surprised you didn't delete it.

I'm more southern than you know. Trust me.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #82)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:11 PM

94. just call me crazy --

crazy like a fox

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #94)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:15 PM

98. You're cracking me up.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:33 PM

25. ibtsd

in before the self delete

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:00 PM

79. fooled you

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #79)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:35 AM

185. I still predict this will end with you deleting your OP

or else an admin locking it. I guess we'll see.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:35 PM

27. I don't agree with this poster at all. I live in the south. I don't like the piling on I see. It

 

is free speech. Maybe it is his observation not yours or mine. I happen to love where I live. I have lived across the united states. I see good and bad in every region. I don't like the piling on. I know how it feels.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:12 PM

95. please and thank you.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:06 AM

221. Your welcome. I know how it feels. It happened to me. I strongly believe is freedom of speech eve

 

if I don't see all your comments are right. There are many good people in the south just like across the states. But it is your opinion and you should have a right to express it. I just can't stand when I see the piling on.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #221)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:16 AM

227. I never stated an opinion. All I did was ask a couple of questions.

and yes, you are correct. The piling on started immediately, if not sooner.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #227)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

232. Your right, sorry. However your commenting on others I felt was piling on. I see you can stand up

 

pretty well for yourself and you sure don't need me. I just hate piling on. When people start wanting to send you to the jury or say how long your comments are going to last because you don't go with the flow then that to me isn't free speech. Even if I don't agree with you.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:37 PM

29. I like to bash the south as much as the next guy...

But this is PURE FLAME BAIT, and I voted to HIDE this thread.

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Response to PassingFair (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:39 PM

33. Is there any group you DON'T like to bash?

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Response to cordelia (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:44 PM

39. I'm an equal opportunity basher.

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Response to PassingFair (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:44 PM

38. I voted to hide it as well... n/t

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Response to PassingFair (Reply #29)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:47 AM

167. thanks for doing your civic DU3 duty

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:38 PM

31. *facepalm*

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:01 PM

80. exactly.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:41 PM

34. There is no light without the dark

There is no yin without yang

No white without black, so to speak.

We're as much a part of you as you are of us. And you just can't stand that.

Besides, if The South went away tomorrow, who would you have to feel superior to?

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Response to supernova (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:02 PM

83. I feel superior to whom?

I do not alert and I do not sit jury however your post is slightly insulting. Please see my post #50 in this thread. Thanks.

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Response to supernova (Reply #34)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:13 AM

192. "who would you have to feel superior to"?

Who feels inferior?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:42 PM

36. Hmmm....no Harper Lee, no Truman Capote, no Flannery O'Connor, no Stax, no thank you

 

adding to that list:

Mark Twain, William Faulkner, Janis Joplin, Allman Brothers, Booker T and the MGs, Delaney and Bonnie, Bobbie Gentry, Larry McMurtry, Willie Nelson, Molly Ivins, Ann Richards... and I've just scratched the surface

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:44 PM

37. Stupidest question I've heard today... and I spent the day with 4 year olds.

Where do YOU draw the line between north and south? Do you even have a fucking clue?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:46 AM

165. lovely post. just stunning.

perhaps you need to spend more time with those 4 y/o.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #165)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:43 AM

187. Your post stunned me until I realized I'd seen it asked here a hundred times...

If I had a question I needed to ask of those kids... I'd ask "where would you draw the line between North and South in the context of who is racist, dumb, unlearned, or otherwise undesirable... and why would you draw it there?

That's a question you REFUSE to answer, and I don't think you could answer it if you tried.

Personally, I don't think you could answer my question on a BET.

Los Angeles is further south than a HUNDRED cities you'd identify as places in "TEH SOUTH" you'd like to quietly go away...

The next time you ask a stupid question, prepare yourself for stupid answers...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #187)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:16 AM

193. Are you from the mid-west? The mid-east?

Geographic colloquialisms don't follow maps.

They follow the custom of their origin.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #187)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:41 AM

197. IMHO, I actually think that everyone's idea of 'what' the 'south' IS is different ...


In my opinion ...

First off I want to say that I DO know that this is NOT correct (or at least what others might think),
but when I, a Texan, think of what the states are 'in the South' the states that come to mind are Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.

Yes, I know that that is not right and not inclusive of all the states that 'others' say are in the 'south'.
But living down here in Texas for 35+ years (Dallas and Houston) those are the only states that 'seem' southern to me, and maybe because I am a 'foodie' and many 'southern food recipes' come from the five states mentioned above.

Oklahoma and Arkansas are states, to me, that are just UP THERE - I've spent a little bit of time in Oklahoma and Arkansas and the culture there didn't seem as southern to me as our culture here in Texas. Perhaps others have found it differently then I have but that is my 'impression'.

Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina are states that are 'way over there' near the east coast and I must admit I don't know much about them and never thought about them as being 'southern'.

Florida is a mixture of many cultures and I've never associated it with 'southern culture' such as saying "yes ma'am, no sir", peach cobbler, cowboy boots, or southern accents (perhaps because I've never been to Florida) and when I think of Florida I think of NASA, fun beaches, and college springs breaks like the ones I saw in old Elvis movies

And as far as Southern California goes well that is 'just south of northern California' right? Just like southern Illinois is in the south of the state but not really southern.

Bottom line is that all 50 states comprise what we call 'The UNITED States of America' and we should be UNITED in our thinking and our actions towards each other.



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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #187)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:20 AM

228. that question has already been asked and answered by me in this very thread--

Please note my reply to seabeyond and try to keep up.

As you appear to have trouble keeping up, please note posts #52 and #87 in this thread and also make yourself aware of the time stamps.

You are truly insulting and I hope the Admin is taking note of your replies to me.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #187)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 12:48 PM

309. Tuesday is from the South.

She us pointing out regional bigotry,many have not gotten it.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:45 PM

40. Build a big wall around it to keep the stupid in... n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #40)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:29 PM

64. a lot of people in the west say things like that about the east

think it really helps solve anything?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:46 PM

42. Yes!

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Response to jzola (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:04 PM

84. hm . . .welcome to DU

hope you find it to your liking . . . .

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:48 PM

44. Will they be taking their food, short story writers, novelists, playwrghts with them?

Their educators, social justice activists and scientists? Do they get Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks, Shelby Foote and William Faulkner?

What about, not just no but hell, no?

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:04 PM

85. it would be a crying shame.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #85)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 PM

119. It's like considering which of your hands you would keep, isn't it?



At a minimum I want to negotiate for merh and Fly By Night.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:48 PM

45. No nt

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Response to Crabby Appleton (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:43 AM

164. thanks

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 09:57 PM

49. In light of all the misinterpretations of your QUESTION

and how many are basically saying the whole idea of ditching the region is untenable, now don't you see what I was talking about when I said sometimes people are overly sensitive to certain topics? I know from out conversations you in no way are saying this is something that should happen. So I have a little advantage over how some are jumping to the conclusion that you are advocating such a thing. But the fact that they are saying it would be wrong and are "attacking" you for suggesting it should count for something, eh?

now don't delete, dammit

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Response to Kali (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:02 PM

50. Kali,

you get me. You really get me

ask a question and look what happens on DU

proud southern pro2a democrat with 7 different bloodlines flowing through my veins including cherokee, creek, and african....checking in

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:50 PM

75. "Would the nation be better off..." How many interpretations does that have?

And where is the line drawn?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:56 PM

77. Personally, I think, no. We would not be better off but, I ask it of all DUers.

I also think that southern history threads and being related to civil war soldiers are not topics for GD but, that is just me.

You interpreted the question any way you see fit. That is what a good question does, right?

makes people think.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #77)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:01 PM

81. Why do you feel that it's an important question in the first place? And hasn't it been

asked ad infinitum here before?

I don't think it's a question rooted in reality, and not well reasoned. Therefore, I see it as a bash.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #81)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:05 PM

86. welcome to DU3

where any 3 random DUers disagreed with you. sorry.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #86)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:14 PM

97. Too true.

I notice that you didn't bother to answer either of my questions...

Telling.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #81)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:20 PM

103. why do -I- think it is an important question? because I live in the south --

and I don't stay where I am not wanted. do you?

ad inifitum? apparently not, as witness this thread.

rooted in reality? to whose reality would you be referring?

I don't alert and I don't sit on juries but, I find your reply to be somewhat insulting. Good night, kind sir.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:11 PM

52. then lets get rid of wisconsin, ohio, montana, nevada, az.... what are we looking at?

red states? bigotry? religion?

there is quite a bit in parts of calif.... gut those out

how are we doing this?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:06 PM

87. beats the hell outta me

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:14 PM

53. And leave Southern blacks at the mercy of racists? I don't think so.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:16 PM

54. Would the nation be better off if only those with IQs of 110+ could vote? nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:01 AM

139. that question is worthy of its own thread, me thinks

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:24 AM

194. Well, then the 130's would bitch about the 110's.

The 160's would break from the 130's, and yay, we'd wind up with a system where people would spend all their time arguing about the validity of a test, the cultural bias of a test, etc.

I've long been in favor of the idea that only people who can pass a citizenship test should vote, no IQ issue, no "have you been here long enough" issue. It's not a g test, it's a knowledge test... but I also realize it's highly specific to certain historical ethnicity.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:18 PM

55. I'm happy for all you people who love the South

but I have lived a lot of places and it is my least favorite. Too hot, too many mosquitoes, bad air quality, too much fake religion and too conservative.
I am going to Denver for a month and when my kids graduate we are gone.

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Response to wilt the stilt (Reply #55)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:42 PM

73. You obviously have never Been to Austin

in Central Texas. Our Air quality is great! We have some religious people and we have some conservatives... just like anywhere else. Does Denver not have any religious people or conservatives?

I will admit to it being hot in the summer, and maybe a few mosquitos. Over all I'd never live anywhere else.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #73)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:01 AM

199. Do you have public naked bicycle rides, and full nude (with drinks) strip clubs?

Also, do you get snow?
How many breweries do you have?

-Portland.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #73)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:33 AM

209. Of course there are placess like Austin

but is that the norm? If you go to the PIRC site(I think that is what it is) that measures air quality in the south overall is very bad. It is probably has to do with the humidity holding it in. As far as Denver every area has religious conservatives but they tend to be in Colorado springs. I've lived in both Atlanta and Denver and Atlanta is just really boring.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:21 PM

59. We'll be better when we tell the Limbaughs and Robertsons to STFU

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Response to Initech (Reply #59)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:07 PM

88. agreed

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Response to Initech (Reply #59)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:33 PM

114. Definitely! The Limbaughs, Robertsons, Becks of the world and like stoke the

flames of hatred for profit and really don't give a damn.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #114)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:42 PM

125. Yup - they incite hatred and violence for money. How do they sleep at night?

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Response to Initech (Reply #125)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:45 PM

127. It's sooo damn ironic, they consider themselves the moral fabric and patriots of

this country. In my book they are extremists and undermine the US. I guess money cures all guilt.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #127)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:56 PM

136. I agree, they are extremists and enablers, and they are not good for the US.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:22 PM

60. The south is a beautiful region with mostly wonderful folks just like anywhere else. We don't need

to be region bashing here. This is a nasty post. It is fine to disagree with people politically, but to ask that they "just go away" is very uncool. I have spent considerable time in the south and cherish the southern "brothers" I have had in life, and this from a through and through New England Yankee.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #60)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:33 PM

66. read the op carefully then look for my replies

there have been a number of south bashing threads of late and the OP is merely illustrating something about this subject on DU, she is NOT advocating what you think.

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Response to Kali (Reply #66)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:07 PM

89. thanks, Kali

you are a good friend mon cheri

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:25 PM

62. Absolutely, 100%

Because problems like racism, religious extremism, and overall rethug idiocy do not exist outside of the South. If it weren't for the South, this country would be a fucking utopia.

Do I really need to add the

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #62)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:08 PM

90. exactly

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:25 PM

63. the protect the south crowd is ignoring american history. nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #63)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:10 PM

92. do expand on that, please. nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #63)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:52 PM

132. Or maybe they dont appreciate broad-brushing

We understand we have a lot of work to do. But anti-South broad brushing ignores the fact that our problems exist everywhere - not just the South. Posting these sentiments on DU does nothing except alienate DUers who happen to live in the South.

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Response to msongs (Reply #63)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:00 AM

250. Really?

 

Because the question is essentially 'should the south leave the union?'

It seems to me that the people saying 'no' (or if you prefer, 'the protect the south crowd') are the ones with history on their side.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 10:44 PM

74. Congrats. You win the sarcasm as flamebait award.

Along with an honorable mention in the two wrongs don't make a right category for pointless, counterproductive posts.

Well done. Thanks for your contribution to constructive discourse here on DU. He said, sarcastically...

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Response to pinto (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:09 PM

91. lol

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Response to pinto (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:13 PM

96. that seems a little unfair

I can see possibly a bit flame-baity, but it is a topic that has relevance and I don't see sarcasm there at all.

People here are constantly talking about things they find offensive or negative, why is pointing out the region bias and getting people to think about their prejudices pointless?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:10 PM

93. NO

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Response to JI7 (Reply #93)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:58 PM

138. thank you

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:16 PM

99. No. I have no real need

to ever see it again, but there are a lot of good people there.

I have an IQ of 150 and a masters degree and I've had non Southerners look down their noses at me as if I were some sort of illiterate hick the minute I open my mouth.

The racism, provincialism, ignorance, and petty venality so often attributed to the south is alive and well in this country from Portland to LA. The south has had to take the blame for a lot of shit that is just as prevalent everywhere else in this country and I get a little tired of having to wade around in it out here on the "left coast".

I don't understand how liberals can trumpet their weepy concern for the poor and downtrodden and almost in the same breath snort their bigoted derision at some of the poorest people in the country. And the irony is that if and when this country really goes broke the upscale urbanites who have looked down their noses at the south won't have a clue what to do when the real fight starts and they will discover that there is no more fierce and loyal friend to have in a foxhole than a Scotch-Irish redneck. But then it will be too late.

The south is populated by United States citizens. They could, and should, be our political allies but for the arrogance of liberals who should know better if their own self image is to be believed. As far as I'm concerned anyone who harbors such regional bigotry can fold it in three corners and shove it so far up their ass their hat won't fit.

Besides, where the hell else are we gonna get good barbeque?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #99)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:20 PM

104. I have flown back home on soon-to-expire miles

with BBQ as the sole justification.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #104)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:27 PM

108. I applaud your priorities.

You are obviously a person of exceptional refinement and good taste.

Damn I'm hungry.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #108)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:37 PM

120. I'm stranded here in the Northeast.

These fine folks make an honest attempt, but when you tell them "Memphis Rub" they give you deer in the headlights.

Forget a dollop of real BBQ sauce (Mustard based) from Bonos (which I have ordered shipped and need to do again).

Crimeny. Now I'M hungry.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #120)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:01 AM

140. And dont get me started on country ham. nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #99)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:23 PM

106. kind sir, I will be proud to be in that foxhole with you!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #106)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:30 PM

112. And i would be honored to join you there.

Somebody's gotta show 'em what a proper ass whippin' looks like.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #99)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 PM

118. say it!

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Response to rrneck (Reply #99)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:08 AM

201. "how liberals can trumpet their weepy concern"?

Lovely. Unmasking is fun.

"that there is no more fierce and loyal friend to have in a foxhole than a Scotch-Irish redneck"

I'll keep that in mind. Should I use you as a radiation shield, or blast shield?

"Besides, where the hell else are we gonna get good barbeque?"

Where it started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue

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Response to boppers (Reply #201)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:05 AM

237. Yes, unmasking is fun.

Especially when I'm unmasking bigots and political myopics.

I don't care where barbeque started, it's done right in the south.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:19 PM

101. We need to pull together as a united, not divided nation. Divided, we are

definitely going to fail as a nation. I know some people in the south that are very left wing, and I know others 'not' in the south that are very RW. And on both coasts I know some pretty RW people in areas considered liberal ... so, it's not easy to sum up a geographical area as "all" one way or another IMO.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #101)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:34 PM

115. It has more to do with population density than anything. mt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #115)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 PM

117. Excellent point!!!

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Response to rrneck (Reply #115)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

163. That is an excellent point.

I actually have seen a lot of real good data that backs that up.

A lot of times our political leanings are divided into an urban vs rural arraignment. And the more urban you are (black or white) the more likely you are to be a Democrat. And the reverse is true for rural voters and Republicans. And because even today, the South is more rural than the northeast... this DOES explain some the voting disparities between the regions.

I was reviewing a race in Massachusetts one time, and even in that state, you can see the rural/urban divide. Boston is very Democratic. The Suburbs break 60/40. And after that, every mile you trek away from the city gets you a deeper and deeper red.

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Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #163)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:14 AM

225. Just an FYI post re: population density-


http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2011_fotw661.html

I guess overall the northeast is more densely populated than the south. However most of the southern states seem to fall around the national average for population density, and some are above that. Iow, I wouldn't say they are more 'rural' as a region, though there may be pockets of rural areas (as is true anywhere).

While the region's population density may have been much lower than average at one time, that doesn't appear to be the case now. -Btw, I chose this map since it's got the most recent data of all the links I checked. As noted, this is just an FYI not directed at anyone in particular. (I'm a bit of a data nerd)

That doesn't mean I disagree w/you though about rural voters. They, in general do seem to be more conservative voters. Case in point- check out Maine. As of the 2010 election, they became a 'red' state- R state house, state senate, R constitutional officers, Teabag governor and 2 R US senators.

As far as the OP- I agree that it is sad to see the region bashing going on. We really do need to be working togethor and this whole N v. S stuff is not helpful to that end imho. A better approach would be to celebrate and expand upon the things that unite us as opposed to divisive stuff. Again just my humble opinion fwiw.

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Response to PotatoChip (Reply #225)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:32 AM

240. Thats a good map. I am going to steal it for my archive!


I learned something here. The South actually is not quite as rural as I would have initially thought. I would only add that basic population density state-wide is not the only indicator. Its almost a city vs country dispute.

For instance Minnesota has a population density less than what you would find in Alabama. Surprisingly it is about on par with Mississippi in terms of population. However, Minnesota has Minneapolis. This is a major city. Mississippi does not have a major city close to this size. Numbers indicate that the more urban an area, the more likely they are to vote Democratically.


Here is the breakdown on vote based on population demographic area in Presidential elections 2000-2008.

Presidential vote percentage by population density 2000-2008


2000-2004-2008



Population over 500,000
Democrat 71 -60-70%
Republican 26 -39-28%


Population 50,000 to 500,000
Democrat 57-49-59%
Republican 40-49-39%


Suburbs
Democrat 47-47-50%
Republican 49-52-48%



Population 10,000 to 50,000
Democrat 38-48-45%
Republican 59-50-53%



Rural areas
Democrat 37-39-45%
Republican 59-59-53%


We can see that as populations get more rural, they trend more Republican. So its actually more than just overall population density. For instance a state with a very large city (population over 500,000) surrounded by very rural areas, is actually more likely to trend Democratic than a state with no major city but many small towns with populations of 50,000 residents.


This actually makes sense. It is a fact that people who live in more urban areas are better educated, know people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds and are less likely to be religious compared to their rural counterparts.

And by the way, the above facts aren't just a southern issue. These numbers are largely just as true in a state like Pennsylvania as it is in Alabama. There is a reason why political pundits call PA the "T" state. It is Pittsburgh in the East. Philadelphia in the west. And Alabama in the middle. The voting patterns within the state of PA is a perfect example of the rural vs urban debate. And PA is not a southern state.


Good discussion. I understand that this thread is only here based on a 3-3 jury vote. But I hope critics can see that there is valuable information here. If they will only take the time to read what has been posted.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:20 PM

102. Nope, because I live on a beautiful lake in Virginia, which is in the south, and I

like living in the US.

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Response to phylny (Reply #102)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:06 AM

145. me too

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:29 PM

111. What a moronic thread. nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #111)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:56 PM

137. feel free to find one that suits your own mentality.

there are plenty from which to choose.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:31 PM

113. Nope.

(That was easy).

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Response to Iggo (Reply #113)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:55 PM

135. one would think --

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:37 PM

121. I would personally prefer flame-baiting bigots on message boards go quiety away. nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #121)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:45 PM

129. pssst

read the whole thread

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Response to Kali (Reply #129)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:49 PM

130. I've read all I care to read of this garbage, thanks.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #130)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:52 PM

131. So you weren't referring to the OP.

Excellent. Thanks for clarifying.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #121)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:52 PM

133. I do not alert and I do not sit on juries however, I would find your post to be

highly insulting if I was one of those, which I am not. Good night, kind sir.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sat Jan 28, 2012, 11:54 PM

134. Sure

But we'll be taking the New Deal, Fair Deal, that win in WW2, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights act, the Great Society, the War on Poverty, and any hope you ever have of Democratic presidents getting elected in the future with us. Hope that works out well for you.

Seriously, do people even think for 5 seconds before posting this type of stuff?

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #134)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:05 AM

142. Do people read the whole thread before they reply?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #142)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:11 AM

147. Apparently not

A little humility is a good thing. Oh well, that post works whoever is actually serious about this.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #147)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:14 AM

148. yes, it does. and thank you for pointing out all those accomplishments --

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:18 AM

151. Short answer? Hell yes...

Ever listen to the calls from the south on C-Span's Washington Journal in the morning?
Racist Inbreds are the majority of the callers from the south.
Tune in and tell me I'm wrong.
BHN

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Response to BeHereNow (Reply #151)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:26 AM

155. or, could it be that

southern racist inbreds know how to dial a phone and northern racist inbreds have yet to learn that accomplishment . . .

just askin.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #155)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

162. !

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #155)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:17 AM

182. Haw, haw!

Hey, I love your store, but i don't have any money. Could you get some of those many, many racist northern inbreds to make a "Hot inbred sex" video and send me the "tithes?"

Thanks so much, and have a blesssed day!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #155)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:11 AM

202. LOL

It's a "crafting" thing.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:37 AM

161. Okay, I'll ask. What's the basis of your question?

Please be specfic.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)


Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:00 AM

173. I've long said that Lincon was our worst President

when SC seceeded and the rest followed he should have just said don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out!!!

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Response to gopiscrap (Reply #173)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:09 AM

177. That's a real blivet of a post. nt

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:12 AM

180. Oh, Lawsy, I got the vapors!

Wow, hepp me jeebus! Hepp me! Hepp me!

Lately I've been seeing all kinds of attacks on other posters, just nit-picky stuff like the dog-piling that's going on here. The OP wondered whether, basically, the South should have been given their fondest wish during the Civil War. Some of the responses have been stated as if the OP actually had some power to make it happen. To me, this is nuts.

I, myself, got a post deleted, when I was pointing out what seemed to me to be an obvious troll, trying to bait others into saying something he or she could potentially use to discredit us "libruls." "Calling someone a conservative is the WORST kind of attack!" one of the jurors said. OK, I'm fine with that, and will file it away for later reference.

Huh?

I grew up in the South, and heard in church how people of color were bad and evil cause they ain't like "us." The English rock bands were Satan's minions, spreading communism, socialism, devil-worship, and whatever else the preacher wanted to use to defame them, as he had, literally, a bully pulpit.

As I advanced in my life, I finally realized my dream of getting the fuck out of the South and yes, getting away from the bigotry and plain stupidity that plague it. I've lived in several states on both east and west coasts, and due to family circumstances out of my control, I am back in the South until I can once again muster up the (whatever) to leave again to a place where stating my beliefs won't create a deafening silence.

I'm also queer as a football bat, yet not "obvious" to all but the most self-hating closet queen Christer; the gaydar is real, and many self-hating "Christians" use it themselves, either for a roll in the hay, or, if rebuffed, to "out" others in an attempt to "punish" them.

So why the crisis reaction to the idea that the South has, uh, a "problem" in the idiocy/redneck/empathy problem?

First (if I haven't been jurified yet for whatever or whoever this statement of fact may have pissed off), there is indeed a big problem here. The preachers, politicians, anti-unionists and other vultures have fostered "class" warfare and the bullshit of "racial" differences here for many years. Going to church is a big part of southern culture; I have many wonderful memories related to church activities in my youth. What I didn't realize was that I was being indoctrinated, and that when I asked questions or dared to point out the obvious absurdities, I was labelled "strange," which is fine with me; I'd hate to be a cookie-cutter version of everyone else. Wouldn't you?

I doubt no one has a problem with the geography or the rich, black earth of the south, which used to produce an abundance of sugar cane, rice, corn, cotton, etc.

But I can't emphasize enough the hatred, bigotry and outright stupidity I've been subjected to, being back in the South when I dare to speak my mind. Mainly, I'm referring to my own ignorant immediate and extended family, all convinced they're better than any person of color, other nationality, other belief system, no matter how humane or beneficient.

And Jesus was white, just look at the picture in the Bible.

So, while I desperately hope the South can be educated, there are so many built-in obstacles I just don't know, but I do hold out hope.

I imagine I'd be similarly exercised about my home region, whether I grew up in the North or the Midwest. (But not the west coast. Just being honest.)

Now, back to the OP: should the South go away, LIKE THEY WANTED TO? They benefitted immeasurably from staying in the union, even now, they take much more federal money from blue states than they could ever hope to contribute. But, what SHOULD go away is the SOUTHERN STRATEGY, and the utterly undeserved "special rights" southerners expect even as they want to take rights from others.

Have a blessed day!

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Response to xfundy (Reply #180)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:58 AM

248. Xfundy, I have to say that my experiences mirror yours, except I'm not gay. I was born and raised

in Florida, which is only Southern in name, except for the north part, central FL, and the panhandle (those areas were the real South). I've lived in southern states (TN, VA, AL, GA) for most of my life due to family and job pressures, but I felt free and happy only in non-southern states (MT, CO, WA) and in Canada. It's hard to explain to folks who haven't experienced it exactly how the religious, social and racial indoctrination blankets your life if you grow up in the South. I missed a lot of it only because my parents were not Southern, and they were careful to correct some of the godawful nonsense I heard in school, from 'friends,' etc.

The ignorance is the worst problem, IMO. The number of southerners who have not ever been outside their home state shocked me. (Just my anecdotal observation.) Churches are little more than indoctrination centers, and they make sure that they are literally the only social outlet for millions of people. I also heard plenty about how black people were stupid, smelly, dirty (dark skin automatically signaled 'dirt' to an unholy number of people, apparently because of the fairy tale/Bible/historical linking of black or dark with 'bad' and white or light with 'good'). All in all, large numbers of southerners seem wedded to such primitive associations, and are moved by them. That's why the crafty preachers and self-serving politicians do so well here -- the audience is totally primed for them. Of course, all humans are subject to the same sort of emotional manipulation, but the degree of civilization expressed by a society is directly related to the ability of the people in that society to understand and moderate their own emotional responses with their intellects rather than let their emotions always run their actions. IMO, a more civilized society recognizes that humans can be manipulated in ugly ways, and rather than set up structures that glorify and exploit that trait, it tries its hardest to set up structures that moderate that trait - like science-based schooling, public debunking, keeping religion out of govt, etc.

Another factor that no one has mentioned is the Scotch/Irish factor, so well-explained by a couple of southerners, Jim Webb of VA and Joe Bageant of VA. It's way too much to put in a post, but googling either of these guys will give you plenty of info.

It would be an interesting experiment to separate the regions and fast-forward 100 years, but it ain't gonna happen unless we have a total meltdown of some sort, which we may just be heading for. I'm old enough to be pretty sanguine about the human race's chances -- it may or may not do well, and IMO we are just as likely to degenerate into nastiness and brutality as we are to advance to the stars -- and my only regret is that I didn't move to Canada when I had the chance.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)


Response to quinnox (Reply #181)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:35 AM

188. If the tea party faction, that pulled a coup d'etat on the GOP in 2010, gets its way . .

. . they will push the entire South to the far right extreme fringe, and in effect, split this country right in two!!

I don't know what it is going to take to ensure fair and equitable access to voting booths this fall to make sure that everyone who wants to vote has the opportunity to vote, but there are so many states enacting more restrictive voting laws, that it isn't even funny.
All of a sudden.
Right out of the blue.

Ever since Obama became President.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #181)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:45 AM

217. "Fuck the South"?

And this hasn't been hidden?

Well, at least you've put your bigotry and hatred on display for all to see.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #181)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:24 AM

254. The South also produced Al Gore, Albert Gore, Sr., Jimmy Carter, LBJ,

Max Cleland, Bill Clinton, Sam Nunn, etc.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #181)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:54 PM

287. "the South owns its history" ?

Must "the north" own its history as well?

After defeating The South, the North turned its armies against the Native Americans in a brutal 30 year war of genocide and ethnic cleansing. The North WON that one too.

Personally, I didn't participate or endorse either one,
so I don't feel compelled to "own" anything.

The War between the States is another example where the 1% managed to inflict incredible amounts of pain, suffering, and loss on the 99% whom had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.




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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:41 AM

186. No. The south rocks.

Lived in Florida for most of my life. There are some great people here. If you know where to go it is also a beautiful and friendly place to visit.

I know you are aware of this and take your op for what it is.

I just wish you northerners would keep your cold weather from invading my space.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #186)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:10 AM

224. Florida is not the deep south.


It is from a geographic standpoint. But it isn't from a cultural standpoint.

The northern panhandle is closely tied to the traditional south. However Miami is closer to New York than Biloxi.

Florida is not the state people in this tread are talking about. (And I strongly believe you know that!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:25 AM

189. Surely you can't be serious.

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Response to Rex (Reply #189)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:14 AM

205. Don't call me Shirley.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:41 AM

190. no,

i'm an american, and i live here.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:40 AM

196. No! Americans have a revolution to win, not a civil war. (nt)

 

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Response to T S Justly (Reply #196)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:56 PM

280. got that right!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:12 AM

203. Wasn't Martin Luther King Jr from the South?

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Response to mmonk (Reply #203)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:56 PM

279. indeed!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)


Response to Obamanaut (Reply #204)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:16 AM

206. Or stay longer.

As the north moved south, it became more rational.

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Response to Obamanaut (Reply #204)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:08 AM

215. I don't mind them but I find it curious that they moved to my state and voted in

the first Republican legislature since reconstruction.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:38 AM

211. The Southern strategy only works because of our Archaic

and undemocratic electoral system. If we had the popular vote for the presidency then the campaigns and the governing would be national instead of regional.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:44 AM

212. I don't necessarily think the south should go away, but . . .

maybe it's time we consider officially splitting this country into 2. Let the crazies have their own land, Little Somalia, complete with people dying in the streets from hunger and lack of health care, oil in their water and gun deaths at astronomical levels. Over in Sane-istan, we'll be building a fence to keep them out and enjoying the absolute peacefulness of having them gone.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #212)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:54 PM

278. interesting. is that what your crystal ball shows you?

You might consider returning it for a refund . . . just a suggestion, kind person.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:05 AM

214. This is stupid.

I hope your intent was to provide an opening for everyone who likes to spout off idiotic crap about the south and how much they personally know that the south is inferior, cause they've been to lots of states so they just know, or their favorite stats tell them its just a fact, or whatever.

Hope you're happy with the results.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #214)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:37 AM

236. Thank you for your kind comments.

I love you, too.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #236)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:56 PM

303. I guess I should be thanking you.

I was ticked because it seemed you gave all these people a platform to spew their bile.

But I guess now at least I have a better idea of how many DUers apparently find this acceptable.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #303)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 07:00 PM

304. it boggles the mind. ---



a sad commentary but, there you have it

I am trying to figure out how to solve the probelm and, like with misogny, in order to solve it you have to talk about it, I guess.

Thanks

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:20 AM

216. This CT born, MA raised person loves the south!!!...

Most of my extended family hails from the south. I head south every chance I get. I hope to retire in the south.

There are many things I don't like about the NE and can't wait to get the heck out of here.

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Response to Little Star (Reply #216)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:36 AM

235. May your geographical issue be resolved as quickly as humanly possible.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:03 AM

219. Sorry but the answer is yes. I lived in the south for twelve years and found

nogood use for the region. Many intentionally ignorant people taking a pathological pride in being backward.

JMO flame away.

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Response to leeroysphitz (Reply #219)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

233. indeed, kind sir. You are entitled to you opinion. Thank you for expressing it

in such a judicious and forth right manner. Trust me, your comments have been taken under advisement.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:28 AM

230. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

We southern liberals apparently need to just stop fighting and give up.

Sounds a lot like a certain someone who said that Pelosi, Reid, Obama, etc. should leave the country.

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Response to Tennessee Gal (Reply #230)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:31 AM

231. I am about to come to that conclusion as well -- please see my post #50

in this thread. -I- want to know the anwsers to these questions because I do not stay where I am not wanted. Do you?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #231)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

239. No, I do not stay where I am not wanted ......... however

I have been hanging out here for a long time. Not so much lately, but quite a bit during the W years. I was consumed by the Bush v. Gore debacle and found a bit of peace here. In the years following that outrage I also spent a lot of time researching and writing. I briefly wrote articles for Buzzflash.com.

I know my stuff. I know that my beliefs are strong and every once in a while I manage to make a few valid points with conservatives in my area. There are some who can be reasoned with. The best approach is through logical reasonable questions. Then there are those who are so radical there is no point in wasting time or energy. Their radical positions are usually based on abortion or guns and they vote against their own economic interests because of those two issues.

Circumstances have changed in the American political world and that needs to be taken into consideration. There is far more right wing propaganda spreading through the media -- Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Voters are too gullible and ill informed, much more than in the past. They believe the lies they are told. It has a lot to do with the right wing training to use "talking points" through "framing" the issues. They are far more adept at this than the left, not that I would support the left spreading lies to win power.

Bottom line for me is this: I am a Southerner and proud of it. I do not believe in region bashing because those who do not live in the south cannot understand it any more than I can truly understand the other regions of the country. In a political sense the south is not what I would like it to be, but I must accept that fact and do what I can to make a difference.

DU is not what it used to be, but I will not be leaving any time soon because I still at times get valuable information here that I use to make political points whenever I have an opportunity.

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Response to Tennessee Gal (Reply #239)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:00 AM

249. well said. thank you

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

234. Not this shit again?

I'd prefer that posters who use a broad brush against regions, groups, etc. and those who rec their posts would go away, quietly or not. It's shit stirring extraordinaire.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:08 AM

238. After reading several, but not all, replies to this thread, I can see that you do not

advocate that the south just quietly go away. You have, however, allowed many posters to engage in south bashing even if that was not the original intent of this thread.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #238)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:18 AM

253. And expose

themselves for the bigots they are.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #238)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:25 PM

255. excuse me, but, how I am responsible for what other DUers post? It is their post to own

Not Mine. They said it. Not me. DU admins and Hosts are the ones that allowed us a place to discuss and ask questions. All I did was a ask a couple of question. My replies are mine only. That the south bashing posts are allowed to remain is something over which I have no control. That is for a jury to decide.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #255)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:59 PM

265. Of course, you are not responsible for what other DUers post. However, when you ask

a leading question, as you did, you must expect that you will receive some of the south bashing replies that we have seen in this thread. If you didn't expect others to jump on the south bashing bandwagon, you are much more naive than I would have thought you to be.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #265)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:04 PM

266. the thing is --

it needed exposing. The other avenues for dealing with it are not working. You can call it a leading question if you so choose.

I ask you to phrase it as objectively as YOU can. I honestly tried my best to phrase the question as objectively as I could.

But the question needed to be asked after some of the things that juries have allowed to stand on here.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #266)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:34 PM

274. Well, pardon the hell out of me. I didn't realize that this was a public service thread.

My bad.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #274)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:47 PM

276. I am truly sorry but, honestly

I was at a loss as how to handle the subject matter. I gave it shot. I am only human. and after some of the stuff I have read on DU3 I was really beginning to wonder. So, I thought I would ask. If I could have posted a poll, I would have. Sadly, that option is not available.

Please understand it was not my intention to offend anyone. Do accept my apologies and let us be friends.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #276)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:00 PM

281. Friends, then. Being from the south, I'll admit to being a little sensitive to the negativity

that seems to be aimed at this region on a regular basis.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:35 AM

241. No, but the nation would be MUCH better off if people would stop South-bashing.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #241)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:37 AM

242. Yes, it would.

No region of this nation has cornered the market on idiocy. It is rampant everywhere.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #241)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:19 PM

270. agreed



love the username, btw.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 10:54 AM

246. How does this have 8 recs? I guess it is ultimately a good thing

that I rarely visit DU3 (compared to DU2).

Not only is the format less appealing, but the crowd seems to have devolved.

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #246)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:03 AM

251. This type of thread makes me miss unrec (nt)

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #246)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 11:04 AM

252. how do resolve this issue? juries are coming back 3-3.

Hosts are voicing opinions that leave me aghast. Simply aghast. How can they objectively host these forums/groups with that attitude?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #252)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:38 PM

275. If you see a big problem with a host

you should report it to the admins.

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Response to Rex (Reply #275)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:48 PM

277. Admin has not replied to my PM.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:26 PM

256. Bigotry & Small Mindedness alive & well at DU3!!!

Congratulations!
If you get your wish,
my wife & I will be staying with the part that gets New Orleans & the Gulf Coast.



The South is beautiful, and belongs to us all.
Its a shame to just give it way.
In 2006, my wife & I moved from Northern City Blue (Minneapolis)
to Red Rural South, and LOVE it here.
We won't be moving back.

bvar22 & Starkraven
turning the South Blue


For the OP and those who agree,
please don't come here.
We already have enough ignorance and small minds.
Everybody else is invited for Fresh Green Beans & Cornbread!



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #256)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:34 PM

257. where did -I- agree to anything, kind sir?

perhaps you would like to read the whole thread or, at least, do me the favor of reading my post #50 reply to Kali.

As for the non-invite. I have my own greens and cornbread. Thank you.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #256)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:53 PM

261. What a beautiful photo! Love the garden n/t

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:44 PM

259. Can't believe all the responses

To this silly op. lol

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Response to Broderick (Reply #259)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:57 PM

264. it would be funny if it wern't so sad. --

one of those times where one has to laugh to keep from crying . . .

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Response to Broderick (Reply #259)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:05 PM

286. Agreed. This topic really touched a nerve with a lot of us. nt

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:52 PM

260. My dad always says "Lincoln didn't do us any favors."

He is of the opinion that the South is hopelessly backward and resistant to progress of any kind.....but there are so many smart, progressive Southerners here on DU, it makes me think he is wrong.

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Response to K8-EEE (Reply #260)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:17 PM

269. indeed. and it is well past time for us to stand up and be recognised

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 12:54 PM

262. Halves of nations never just quietly go away, so I'm going to go with "no." (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #262)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:15 PM

268. very astute answer.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)


Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #263)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:07 PM

267. wow.

just fucking wow. I love you, too

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:38 PM

283. No.

(I read the entire thread.)

I would like to point out, that being inbred has nothing to do with racism except to stereotype southerners. And that since I've moved up to Illinois, someone has called me a hill-william. (Bigots are everywhere.) Northerners asked my grandmother when she moved here, if she had any shoes. If anyone's a little defensive, there's a reason.

I would also like to explain, that while my extended relatives are rascist religious bigots due to living out in the middle of nowhere, they never talked about the civil war. The only words about it that I've heard is my mom explaining that we had relatives on both sides of the war.

There's a bitterness there though. We're talking about a war that created generations of people in poverty, with limited access to a good education. Which just affirmed northern stereotypes. Because the south became isolated, slightly uneducated and overly religious, they soak up bad information. Politicians obviously exploit this, and next thing you know, they're voting republican.

That's just my take on it.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:01 PM

289. Hell no. Neither side is without sin. The Yankees seem to forget it was all those Northern

US Cavalry troops that tried to wipe out the Indian tribes. And why do we "romanticize" Columbus by giving him a holiday for discovering a country already well populated by it's own native people? Blah, blah, blah....my head hurts too from seeing this crap all day. I thought DU3 would be different.


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Response to txwhitedove (Reply #289)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:13 PM

292. I agree -- I would have thought the southern history thread would have been locked and asked to have

been reposted in the American History group. However, I am not a GD (haha GD ?!) Host and therefore do not have that power.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:03 PM

290. The South is part of the nation. This is very disrespectful to our Southern DUers.

VERY disrespectful.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #290)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:08 PM

291. good lord. READ THE THREAD, please -- or at least post #50.

If there is disrpecting done, I did it on myself.

I agree South Bashing is very disrespectful

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #291)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:20 PM

293. If what you claim is true why start the thread at all?

Why suggest such a thing? Why add absolutely no commentary to a negative statement that you have created in the OP and then bury a disclaimer further down? Please. IMHO, if you're trying to say that you support the South, you have failed.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #293)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:25 PM

294. -I- suggested NOTHING. -I- asked questions because of the rampant south bashing that has been

going on in GD and other groups/forums. Jury decisions allow the posts to remain and Hosts say that it is not within their power to the lock the threads. I sent a PM to Skinner several days ago concerning this issue. Still no reply. . . .

If I have failed DU it is only because DU failed me first.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #294)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:35 PM

295. You have failed at making your point clear.

That is what I mean. If you mean what you say now that you mean.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #295)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:48 PM

296. perhaps, you have failed to understand my intent and if so I apologize --

I really don't know how much clearer I can make it. If, after reading this thread, you do not understand what has been happening on this board, may I suggest you check out other forums/groups and draw your own conclusions.

Peace.

TA

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #296)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:51 PM

297. You could post your point of view in the OP, no?

That would certainly clear up any issues.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #297)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 05:57 PM

298. you want me to edit at my OP at this late date?

oh dear.

are you really suggesting I do that?

If I thought editing my OP would clear up DU's region bashing I would do it, gladly. However, I know better and therefore will not.

You really think that woud clear up the issue of south bashing ?!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #298)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:18 PM

299. I think it would clear up the confusion about whether or not you are engaging in it, yes.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #299)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:21 PM

301. no. peace. TA.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #301)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:29 PM

302. That's too bad.

Refusing to clarify a point that has clearly been taken to mean different than what you claim it should mean, seems to say that you are more wanting to stir up issues than to solve them. I hope you would reconsider.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 06:20 PM

300. No, it will be better off when there are more Latino and Asian immigrants in the South,

because Latinos are more likely to support unions and both groups vote in their own economic self interest.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 09:07 AM

307. Which has done greater harm--the South with Big Oil and racism or those in the North who

have molly coddled Big Money and social class along with yet more subtle racism? You tell me. Why should we tolerate these behaviors in any section of the nation and only hold one region responsible. We all have responsibility for the state of our social and political condition.

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