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Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:35 PM

How long before DU does an about face on Bush?

Given that we have accepted Bush's war on terror, adopted much of his apparatus, and are justifying and legitimizing radical measures similar to his, how long before he goes from zero to hero? The new found support for what we're doing almost makes Bush seem visionary.

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Reply How long before DU does an about face on Bush? (Original post)
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 OP
LineReply .
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #1
MotherPetrie Feb 2013 #2
quinnox Feb 2013 #3
arthritisR_US Feb 2013 #21
IdaBriggs Feb 2013 #129
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #4
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #7
jazzimov Feb 2013 #8
sheshe2 Feb 2013 #52
SidDithers Feb 2013 #54
busterbrown Feb 2013 #36
Blanks Feb 2013 #41
demwing Feb 2013 #102
busterbrown Feb 2013 #117
libodem Feb 2013 #5
Laelth Feb 2013 #152
libodem Feb 2013 #156
RC Feb 2013 #6
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #13
ProSense Feb 2013 #9
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #15
ProSense Feb 2013 #19
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #23
cali Feb 2013 #10
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #14
napoleon_in_rags Feb 2013 #11
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #48
napoleon_in_rags Feb 2013 #118
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #124
napoleon_in_rags Feb 2013 #145
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #159
napoleon_in_rags Feb 2013 #169
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #170
RebelOne Feb 2013 #12
Cleita Feb 2013 #17
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #24
Cleita Feb 2013 #30
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #47
Cleita Feb 2013 #63
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #73
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #84
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #86
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #130
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #131
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #136
arely staircase Feb 2013 #16
nobodyspecial Feb 2013 #18
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #20
libtodeath Feb 2013 #22
kenny blankenship Feb 2013 #25
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #27
BeyondGeography Feb 2013 #26
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #28
quinnox Feb 2013 #29
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #31
Louisiana1976 Feb 2013 #32
grasswire Feb 2013 #33
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #34
GoCubsGo Feb 2013 #151
otohara Feb 2013 #35
patrice Feb 2013 #37
baldguy Feb 2013 #38
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #49
baldguy Feb 2013 #80
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #88
baldguy Feb 2013 #97
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #101
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #122
demwing Feb 2013 #105
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #111
sibelian Feb 2013 #141
LanternWaste Feb 2013 #39
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #40
Blanks Feb 2013 #42
libodem Feb 2013 #72
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #100
Blanks Feb 2013 #134
DCBob Feb 2013 #43
DeeDeeNY Feb 2013 #70
G_j Feb 2013 #123
DCBob Feb 2013 #135
G_j Feb 2013 #137
DCBob Feb 2013 #140
MzShellG Feb 2013 #44
liberalmuse Feb 2013 #45
stevenleser Feb 2013 #46
demwing Feb 2013 #106
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #50
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #53
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #79
we can do it Feb 2013 #51
Evergreen Emerald Feb 2013 #55
Whisp Feb 2013 #56
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #60
Whisp Feb 2013 #62
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #66
ProSense Feb 2013 #64
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #69
ProSense Feb 2013 #71
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #74
ProSense Feb 2013 #76
zipplewrath Feb 2013 #171
Fuddnik Feb 2013 #57
Glimmer of Hope Feb 2013 #58
Bonobo Feb 2013 #59
Iggo Feb 2013 #61
War Horse Feb 2013 #65
sheshe2 Feb 2013 #67
Terra Alta Feb 2013 #68
Ian David Feb 2013 #75
Cary Feb 2013 #77
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #82
Cary Feb 2013 #83
sibelian Feb 2013 #142
Cary Feb 2013 #143
sibelian Feb 2013 #144
Cary Feb 2013 #149
sibelian Feb 2013 #161
Cary Feb 2013 #166
msanthrope Feb 2013 #78
treestar Feb 2013 #81
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2013 #85
Camballo Feb 2013 #154
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2013 #158
upi402 Feb 2013 #87
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #89
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #90
Catherina Feb 2013 #99
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #104
Poll_Blind Feb 2013 #91
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #95
jazzimov Feb 2013 #92
Zoeisright Feb 2013 #93
Poll_Blind Feb 2013 #96
woo me with science Feb 2013 #119
WhoIsNumberNone Feb 2013 #94
Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #98
CountAllVotes Feb 2013 #103
jazzimov Feb 2013 #107
one_voice Feb 2013 #108
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #115
one_voice Feb 2013 #121
Le Taz Hot Feb 2013 #109
woo me with science Feb 2013 #110
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #112
woo me with science Feb 2013 #114
just1voice Feb 2013 #113
Rex Feb 2013 #116
BlueCheese Feb 2013 #120
Zorra Feb 2013 #125
kenny blankenship Feb 2013 #128
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #126
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #127
xiamiam Feb 2013 #132
CJCRANE Feb 2013 #133
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #138
Mr Dixon Feb 2013 #139
Marr Feb 2013 #146
DevonRex Feb 2013 #147
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #148
leveymg Feb 2013 #153
DCBob Feb 2013 #155
DevonRex Feb 2013 #160
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #164
Freddie Stubbs Feb 2013 #163
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #150
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #157
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #162
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #165
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #167
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #168
LWolf Feb 2013 #172


Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:37 PM

2. But but but... IOKIYAD!!!!

 

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:39 PM

3. hopefully, when hell freezes over

 

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:05 PM

21. +100

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

129. ^== This. NT

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:42 PM

4. How long before my aunt has balls?

Recognizing that Obama got painted into a corner on the WOT by President Cheney is NOT the same as lauding The Giggling Sociopath.

Every president "murders" (except Jimmy Carter), every president lies (including Jimmy Carter). It's part of the job description. We get to elect the least offensive liar to murder for us.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:46 PM

7. Sorry, from where I stand it looks like the same playbook for a different team.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:49 PM

8. Then you need to stand somewhere else, because

the playbooks are vastly different.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:05 PM

52. +1000

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:11 PM

54. Well said...nt

Sid

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:40 PM

36. Lets not get into a discussion on comparing administrations.....

If Bush/Chaney were still in office this planet would be truly fucked.

I just donít get the fact that some donít understand that If Obama did anything contrary to what the Military Complex wanted and there was an attack on our soil..Obama would have immediately turned into a lame duck POTUS. And our country would be overwhelmed with right wing elected officials.

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:08 PM

41. The federal government is a big ship...

And it doesn't turn on a dime.

That's what so many don't seem to understand. There is information that the president is privy to that presidential candidates aren't privy to.

You've hit the nail on the head. Some of the unpleasant policies can't be eliminated until we've gained more goodwill in the world.

I don't like it any more than anyone else, but the last thing it does is make Dubya look good.

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:46 PM

102. So we sacrifice what's right

for what's expedient?

What's the line that we won't cross?

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Response to demwing (Reply #102)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:57 AM

117. If you define expedient as a lame duck centrist democratic President for 4 years.

Than I say lets be expedient.... The example of Benghazi and what they are trying to pull off should be very unsettling to you. Could you imagine a scenario where Obama cancels the Drone flights and an attack on our soil follows. It would lead to Christian Fundamentalist right wing govt. for at least 2 presidential cycles...That is some scary stuff.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:44 PM

5. Never

And yes, I know I have adapted some level of, cognitive dissonance, to cope with the contradictions.

Yes, it is fucked up. I accept things about 'our' guy that made me furious about Bush. I wondered how his party was able to have a blind eye to the corruption, abuse, and lying, that came out of that sack of shit administration.

I have a better I idea, now, that I've turned into a hypocrite.

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Response to libodem (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:37 AM

152. Impressive honesty. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #152)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:30 AM

156. Just keeping it real

Be careful what you ask for.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:46 PM

6. Oh, you noticed that too, huh?

 

That day seems to be getting ever closer.

We need to redefine "Democrat" around here, as something better than the current "Not Republican".

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Response to RC (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:55 PM

13. Of course everyone still wants to blame shrub

but it's getting harder and harder to do. Crazy times...

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:51 PM

9. Here:

Remembering Bush, accurately
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022343435

That should help you clear up your confusion.

For what it's worth, I understand the attempts to avoid debate: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2353179

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Response to ProSense (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:59 PM

15. Hate to burst your bubble

but you muddle more often than clear.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:02 PM

19. You posted: "Of course everyone still wants to blame shrub"

You're having a sad that Bush sanctioned terror and launched the illegal Iraq war, and no one is mad at the President for ending those policies.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:07 PM

23. Haha

no.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:51 PM

10. grr. more gratuitous bullshit generalizations- and speak for yourself, sparky.

I don't support the war on terror. I don't support drone strikes. Neither do many other DUers.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:57 PM

14. Wasn't referring to people like you

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:52 PM

11. No, I've had that realization.

Not that Bush is awesome, but the simple fact that a lot didn't change in regards with some policies tells me that the president exists in a unique situation, with unique pressures and information that aren't necessarily clear to the rest of us. So simply put, a lot of the bad things that seemed to start in the Bush administration are bigger and more complex than Bush himself, that's clear.

I don't think it has to be this mind blowing thing to realize that: Political reality is always larger, more complex, and involving more people than anything as simple as one leader.

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Response to napoleon_in_rags (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:57 PM

48. Trying to have it both ways?

"...the simple fact that a lot didn't change in regards with some policies tells me that the president exists in a unique situation, with unique pressures and information that aren't necessarily clear to the rest of us. So simply put, a lot of the bad things that seemed to start in the Bush administration are bigger and more complex than Bush himself, that's clear."

Um, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that Bush wasn't as bad as we thought but that we mostly didn't understand the "unique pressures and information"? Or are you suggesting that Bush is bad for doing it, but Obama is okay even though he can't seem to stop?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:29 AM

118. What I'm saying is that the role of the president over estimated.

A lot of the problems we face are deep, systemic. When Bush was POTUS, I as many people over estimated his individual role in creating the problems we saw, and that led to me having some unrealistic expectations of Obama, which weren't fulfilled. Things are better and he has accomplished some huge things, but those were victories hard won - the POTUS isn't some kind of supreme ruler.

I think its hazardous to lay all the blame on one person, one one face, because we live in a system where the faces of leaders can change in an instant in an election, even when underlying problems do not. At some point we have to stop worrying about heroes and villains and start paying attention to those real core issues as standalone things, with a life of their own.

edit: It may be the most effective thing though IS to label Bush a war criminal though, as Abby Martin said tonight. Register profound disagreement with things like the Iraq war.

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Response to napoleon_in_rags (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:42 AM

124. I'm still confused though

Are you giving Bush a break and saying it wasn't all his fault and he was a victim of politics?

And how do you label Bush a war criminal, if he was just a vicitm of his situation? After all, there is so much about being president that we don't know and don't understand the choices they face.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:46 AM

145. I am saying it wasn't ALL Bush's fault... But I don't think he was a good president.

You can go back in history and look at all the bad stuff that happened under the watch of JFK for instance... JFK as an individual really wasn't responsible. The point is that the president doesn't have power over every aspect of our lives. For instance, Obama did a great job making clear what he wants tonight... $9 minimum wage, a bunch of other great things. Will we get them? We'll see, its only partially up to Obama. Once you realize he's not king, he's in their fighting for this stuff, Obama becomes a lot cooler.

As far as Bush though, the example that comes to mind in retrospect was the case where the intel supporting the Saddam getting WMD's was forged:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries
So there was this weird environment where the intelligence Bush was receiving was cherry picked and bizarre. Him wanting to attack Iraq was one thing, but the intelligence should have told him he was wrong. Instead, the whole world morphed to support the fantasy. That's really a remarkable thing, and it involved a whole lot more people than just Bush. That points to problematic phenomena way bigger than one person, and much of that machine is still in place, even though Bush is retired.

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Response to napoleon_in_rags (Reply #145)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:33 AM

159. Try running a ship aground

If you're a Navy captian, and the ship runs aground. You'll never be a captian of a ship again. You think the Captain actually has his hands on the wheel? There are navigators responsible for where the ship is and where is should sail. Commanders don't get to blame their problems on their subordinates. They are RESPONSIBLE for their subordinates. If Bush got bad info from his own people, and he ignored the German's cautions that his intel was bad, HE is responsible. And if he didn't fire them, or have them put on trial, he is even MORE responsible.

Obama is responsible for keeping Gates. Is it any surprise that Gates advised him to execute the SOFA agreement that Gates was involved in negotiating? Who is responsible for that?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #159)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:49 PM

169. I hear you, but the metaphor doesn't perfectly fit for POTUS.

The military is like a dictatorship, with a clear chain of command. Sometimes I WISH congress and others were under Obama's command, but they aren't. Many things in this system have a life of their own, and a president can't easily change them.

I am 100% against the stuff that went on in the Bush administration. Absolutely against it. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is, its bigger than just Bush. We simply can't ignore the smaller percentage of it that's still going on under Obama. I believe Obama is a cool guy, and if he had his say, it wouldn't be there. So that indicates that the power of the president is limited in many cases, and that also means the responsibility the president takes is limited: Responsibility is commensurate with power, and in the case of America, the power and responsibility are distributed, including to the people. Its empowering for us to realise this, but more comforting to deny it. One way to deny it is to place too much blame on one person, rather than looking at the full picture of what happened, at the phenomenon.

When at look at the ineffective sections of the right, the conversation is a who's who of good vs. evil. Vilains, monsters and the rest. Very little stand is made on the what works of substantial policies and discovering their direct observable effects. But I honestly believe that the most powerful political stance is to do just that, forget about individuals and focus on things of substance. Like with global warming: What the hell should we do??? That's the real question. You could set try setting up potential trials at the Hague down the road for people if non-action leads to disaster, but that doesn't answer that fundamental here and now question, which is 90% of the solution.

I know maybe it sounds like I am defending Bush, I'm not. I suffered terribly under that administration. What I'm doing is encouraging us to focus on the deep problems that led to that, not passing people.

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Response to napoleon_in_rags (Reply #169)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:09 PM

170. And this is the core

I believe Obama is a cool guy

Bush can be bad, but we need excuses for Obama because he is a "cool guy".

Cool guys can do wrong things. They should be just as wrong when the do them as when the "uncool" do.

If Bush felt mislead, forced, tricked, or trapped, he should have fired, dismissed, replaced. He was responsible and he should be treated as such. Making excuses for them only gives them the space to avoid that responsibility.

And that goes for "cool guys" too.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:52 PM

12. Not me. I hate the SOB and will always hate him.

I hate him mainly because of the unjustified war on Iraq and all the innocent people killed. They were not our enemy.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:00 PM

17. Copy that for me.

Only Dick Cheney is a more odious human being than George W. Bush.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:10 PM

24. Oh no...

Nixon was worse, so was Reagan.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:21 PM

30. They were all bad but Bush and Cheney were the worst IMHO.

They really set a new benchmark for destroying what was once America.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:55 PM

47. You may not know your history,

but you are, of course, entitled to your opinions.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:19 PM

63. Well I give them sort of a pass because Reagan was really clueless and

he believed his drivel. Nixon actually had some progressive policies. Bush I and II are just evil except that Bush I wasn't as stupid has his son. So yeah, Bush II and his Veep get the prize for pure awfulness.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:30 PM

73. Reagan was not clueless...

he knew exactly what he was doing most of the time. It's a meme created to absolve him from some pretty horrible policies. He didn't begin the destruction of the middle class, that began with WW II and the war powers act...unions never regained the power they had prior to that war. However, he got away with dismantling unions and he sold average Americans a bill of goods that was like selling a man the rope with which he hangs himself. Nixon was worse, including purposely prolonging the Vietnam war for political gain. By the time the Shrub came along the destruction was pretty much complete...he just had to cut taxes one more time.... to put the safety nets on the path to oblivion.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #73)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:54 PM

84. Union membership reached its peak a decade after WWII.

So I don't think its accurate to blame the War Powers Act.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:00 PM

86. While membership increased,

the unions did not have the same power they had had... I should have also mentioned the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947...it gave us the notion of "the right to work"

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:23 PM

130. I know my history fairly well

And Nixon was a Sunday School teacher compared to GWB.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

131. Okay...that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:42 PM

136. Love it!

 

What is happening here? GWB is now a country farmer painting savant and those of us paying attention just don't know the truth?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:00 PM

16. silly bullshit

eom

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:01 PM

18. Yes, the GOP and Dems are just the same

What's Nader up to these days?

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:03 PM

20. Don't know

The safekeeping of the Nader Straw Man is your job.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:06 PM

22. President Obama is forced to pick up all the pieces shrub managed to break

criticizing him for some things he does is looked at by some as terrible and not villifying him mercilessly just as bad by others.
Why does it have to be an either or?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:13 PM

25. He was a voice of conscience crying in the wilderness!

he was a prophet and doer of good works, but his own people knew him not!

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Response to kenny blankenship (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:15 PM

27. LOL!

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:15 PM

26. Fer cryin out loud

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:18 PM

28. Hey someone just gave me another heart!

Thanks!

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:19 PM

29. lol

 

Why do you think I have been posting so many OPs lately?? The more exposure, the more hearts will come!

I kid. I kid.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:21 PM

31. You must be REALLY bored to post this kind "stir-the-pot" nonsense. nt.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:23 PM

32. Never and here's why:

I will always remember Bush as the president why let New Orleans drown during Katrina.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:27 PM

33. who is this "we" you speak of?

It ain't me.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:28 PM

34. Needlessly divisive shitstirring

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:54 AM

151. Yup.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:33 PM

35. PBO Busy Trying to Save American's From Gun Deaths

Did President Bush ever say a word about our gun problem and the thousand that die each year here?




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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:48 PM

37. Give some people credit for being able to tell the difference between 4 & 5 fingers, even if

you can't.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:52 PM

38. How long before DU realizes we live in the world as it is rather than as we wish it was?

Next, you'll be demanding Obama produce his real birth certificate.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:59 PM

49. So we

So we go to war with the army we have, not the army we want?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:46 PM

80. The implication being that this isn't true?

The difference is, of course, the Rumsfeld didn't have to "go to war", but we still have to live in the world.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #80)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:12 PM

88. So we "had" to triple the troops in Afghanistan?

We "had" to execute the SOFA? We "had" to keep Gates? We "had" to have 2 of the three Sec Defs be republicans?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #88)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:59 PM

97. If we had followed the GOP agenda we would still be in Iraq, Afghanistan would not be winding down

And we would have attacked Iran by now, too.

Sorry to break it to you, but the Obama = Bush meme is a big FAIL right out of the gate, denies the facts of the situation & bears no resemblance to what's happening in the real world.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:45 PM

101. The Bush Admin set the agenda and timeling for withdrawal, signing an agreement with Iraq..

an agreement that Obama abided by almost to the day, leaving Iraq a violent poor shithole with millions starving, homeless, a destroyed infrastructure (water, electricity, sewers), a violent government that tortures its citizenry, rampant disease and illness and deformities. We will do the same for Afghanistan.

A decade or so down the road both will be a success for western businesses - Hey! Similar to Vietnam!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #97)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:37 AM

122. Bush negotiated SOFA

Bush negotiated the SOFA that Obama executed. And unless Bush was going to be willing to accept our troops being subject to Iraqi courts, he would have left too. Remember, Clinton and Gates, amongst others, were still trying to get an agreement to allow us to remain, right up until the end.

I'm dubious about Iran because Condi had been against that for years, along with most of the senior military advisers. Cheney even admits to having lost that battle within the White House.

No one is making the Bush=Obama arguement except you. This is about the policies that haven't changed much since then, and why they have not.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:58 PM

105. Ridiculous comment

we obviously live in the world as it is rather than as we wish it was. It's a world where Obama does great things, but not all of those great things are good things.

So you encourage that idea with one comment, and then with the next comment, deride those who take it up, but in a direction that's different than the one you intended?

Sounds as though you are the one wishing that the world were other than it is...

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Response to baldguy (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:47 PM

111. I'm just happy that I don't have to live in the world inside your head. n/t

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:56 PM

141. Well we do get to make *some* decisions about *some* of it.


*some* of the time. Best keep that little bit of freedom, says I.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:56 PM

39. As soon as you see it that way...

"How long before DU does an about face on Bush?"

As with most opinions, as soon as you decide to perceive it that way...

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:00 PM

40. A hawk by any other name is still a hawk.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:28 PM

42. It seems that most historians voted Dubya...

Worst president ever. Can we really expect this president to turn that around over-night.

Most of the problems Obama has had to face so far is because of inertia. A lot of things need turned around.

Just dealing with how much Dubya screwed up the economy is nearly impossible with the romper room mentality of the republican controlled house.

We aren't in any position to undue some of these national security problems until we've erased all of the bad will that Dubya spread throughout the world.

Dubya was the worst president ever - by any objective measure.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:29 PM

72. Absolutely

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Response to Blanks (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:36 PM

100. You do know that "throughout the world" people that royally pissed off about the drone campaigns

don't you? And that use INCREASES the number of terrorists not the opposite. So, just how is increasing the use of drones and spreading there use to other countries with which are not at war erasing all the bad will?

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:37 PM

134. It probably is spreading bad will.

I will grant you that. I am not in support of the expanded (or even continued) use of drones.

I'm merely stating that the president knows a lot more about why these kinds of things go on than even presidential candidates.

My personal preference when it comes to waging war (if we feel like we've got to) is to put troops on the ground. If we are going to be killing people; it should be a personal thing.

I can't get behind remote control killing. However, I don't know enough about what kind of threats there are to national security to say I would discontinue the drones.

It is different to continue a program than it is to start a program. In the long run it makes sense to pull troops out of the Middle East and by extension if we need to take some kind of military action - we may upset more people by mobilizing troops than we would to simply take a small action with a drone.

I don't know what the reasoning is, but the president also has to be careful about discontinuing programs that may create serious political backlash.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:34 PM

43. Suggesting that Bush and Obama are the same is..

simply idiotic.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:25 PM

70. + 1,000

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Response to DCBob (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:38 AM

123. The subject was specific policies

perhaps you missed that.

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Response to G_j (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:37 PM

135. Actually the subject was bashing Obama by using some idiotic comparisons to Bush.

perhaps you knew that.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #135)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:44 PM

137. Would you care to actually address the topic?

or avoid it?

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Response to G_j (Reply #137)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:50 PM

140. I think I did...

in a manner that the topic is worthy of being commented on.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:44 PM

44. Isn't he a war criminal?

He more than anyone else, besides Cheney shouldve been impeached and removed from office.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:46 PM

45. Nevah!

If you only knew how much I and many here despised this man, you would not need to ask.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:47 PM

46. How many times do pro and anti Drone folks on DU have to have the same argument before you are happy

?

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:04 PM

106. at least once more

as always.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:01 PM

50. Oh look, another "Obama=Bush" post from the lazy generalization left!

Very clever and original.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:08 PM

53. It's more about us,

relativism, and the extents of our principles. Your interpretation of my post is a lazy generalization.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:40 PM

79. Um, no. You're accusing this site's members of being ideologically in line

with Bush.

Which is purity trolling of the highest order.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:03 PM

51. It won't happen with me. EVER

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:12 PM

55. In a brazillion years

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:12 PM

56. bush is a mass murdering lieing dumb fuckshit

 



shame on you. really. wtf.

when the President lies us into a war of the scale Iraq was, and has Biden promote those very lies, and have minions in every corner of the government, like Powell shithead, do their bidding by lying to the public. Then you can talk, till then your message is full of stinkin' sheet.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:15 PM

60. And this administration has no

blood on it's hands?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:19 PM

62. if you want a bloodless world

 

it is just not going to happen.

lessening the spilling is about as well as we can do.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:21 PM

66. Not sure how

directly causing = lessening, but ok. At what threshold does it become a war crime?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:20 PM

64. The poster said: "bush is a mass murdering lieing dumb fuckshit"

You said: "And this administration has no blood on it's hands?"

I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to defend Bush, but it looks like it.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:22 PM

69. Everything looks like that to you, Pro

cuz you want it to

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:26 PM

71. Apparently Obama looks like Bush to you.

So much so that you must deflect criticisms of Bush with "Obama does it too" claims.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:31 PM

74. The OP is a riff on liberal hypocrisy, not Obama = Bush

but you know that.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:36 PM

76. The OP is bullshit false equivalency

It's an attempt to say that if you don't disagree with Obama you will soon agree with Bush.

It's simplistic nonsense.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #76)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:17 AM

171. Actually

It's suggesting that it is getting harder and harder to agree with Obama, on a narrow set of issues, and simultaneously disagree with Bush. But some of you have very sharp razors and can split very thin hairs.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:13 PM

57. How fast can you clear some brush?

Or hide from a horse?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:14 PM

58. Never ever ever ever. Like ever.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:15 PM

59. His policies would be happily accepted if proposed by a Democrat, but...

As long as he is Bush, even if he put out a Progressive policy, it would be rejected.

That, although an exaggeration, is closer to the phenomena you are trying to describe.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:17 PM

61. Whatchu mean we?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:20 PM

65. There's legitimate criticism against Obama's drone policies

And then there's equating this admin to the Bush one.

One is not like the other.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:22 PM

67. Are you Serious?! nt

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:22 PM

68. Obama is NOT Bush.

Let me repeat it for you -- Obama is NOT Bush.

Bush started the wars, and it is solely his fault we are in the mess that we are in. Obama is trying his damnedest to fix things but it will take a long time to fix eight years of Bushit; I doubt Obama will even fix it in his eight years, it will take another four to eight years of a Warren or Grayson Presidency to fix things, and even then we might never fully recover from the Dumbya administration.

Is Obama perfect? No, but who is. Yes, there are some things I disagree with the President on but I'd rather have him at the helm than a President McCain, a President Romney, or (God help us) a President Palin.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:36 PM

75. You know who else bombed people?




OMG, Obama is just like Hitler!



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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:39 PM

77. So vote your conscience and vote Republican.

There you go.

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Response to Cary (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:50 PM

82. Seems that what we get

no matter how we vote.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #82)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:54 PM

83. Speak for yourself.

No matter how you vote.

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Response to Cary (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:57 PM

142. Yeeeeeah.


Not really helping anything with that suggestion. It's very well observed, but... it doesn't actually help.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #142)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:17 PM

143. Oh well

I don't pretend that I can "actually help." I don't have any such power.

What I can do, though, is mock.

And I can observe well.

The good news is that the people who would vote Republican are fewer in number so at this point even if I could "actually help" it is pretty much irrelevant.

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Response to Cary (Reply #143)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:39 PM

144. Ya ok


It's just, ya no, saying "vote pub, then loserboy" when dems do right wing things is a bit frustrating. Cos you're saying "suck it up". Which, given that RW crap is being blown about by both sides, is depressing. It would be nicer if we didn't suck it up but made it go away.

Which MIGHT be possible. Yerneverno.

Anyway, I don't even live in the States so I've no right to make any observations at all.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #144)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:47 AM

149. You're saying that I'm saying "suck it up."

You have every right to make any observation you wish to make within the rule here. I'm sorry you're depressed. I suggest you keep this in context, which is that it's only an internet discussion board. No one here gets hurt. No one's livelihood is at stake. Things are said and that's pretty much it; this too shall pass.

Since you don't live here you probably haven't noticed that President Obama is very popular. If the economy were better he'd be even more popular in the polling, and the economy is getting better as we speak. I don't think whining about this or that is going to do anything.

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Response to Cary (Reply #149)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:36 PM

161. It's ok, I'm not depressed.


What you're SAYING is depressing, but I'm not depressed. What I'M doing is suggesting that change can be effected when very often it just easier to think that it can't.

I've noticed his popularity, for sure. It's hard to miss.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:45 PM

166. What's the difference?

What's the difference between saying "what you're saying is depressing" and "I'm depressed?" If you're depressed because of something I said, then you are depressed.

Of course you're allowing me to have way too much power over you. I shouldn't be able to cause you to be depressed. There's something wrong about that.

Change is being effected. I am telling you that most of us are satisfied with the pace of that change, given the hurdles we need to overcome.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:39 PM

78. I'd have been fucking happy if Bush had done his godamn job and drone struck

Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora. If he'd drone struck the leadership of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, I'd have been just fine with that military action.

Drones used in 2001-2002 would have negated the 'need' for the Iraq invasion.

So now, when a Democratic President is doing his job--I won't hamstring him. I elected a person I trust to oversee national security. I prefer drones to ground military action, and I elected a President smart enough to know when one is needed over the other.

If you think Obama is the same as Bush, well--that's your opinion. There's a 2014 election coming up. Who are are going to help elect?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:49 PM

81. Like when we told the conservatives that not supporting the war did not mean we were

enemies of the troops, or disagreed with their using guns or anything else against an enemy, we are also allowed to accept the fact that the war does exist and let the military do what it has to do. It's in essence the same thing. And the same type of argument you are making. Conflate support of the war with support of the troops or the tools of war.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:55 PM

85. I for one approve of his change in career, from Pesident...

to nude model for self portraits.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:50 AM

154. Ha! Thank you so much

I was masochistically reading all the replies to this post when yours made me smile and realize I have got to get out of here and try to find joy again somewhere.

Also, remarkably, someone gave me a heart and I wanted to say thank you, but it seems unlikely he or she will see it here. But just in case, thanks very much.

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Response to Camballo (Reply #154)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:38 AM

158. Someone also gave me a heart, for which I am very thankful.

DU is great, but sometmes we all need to get out and do something else.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:05 PM

87. so true

idiot lackeys have spread like cancer into dominating both parties

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:23 PM

89. Probably won't directly happen though the "we don't know what the President knows" defense

is closer than most will admit.

What happens now is a steady move to paint peace advocates as "the fringe", pacifists as "whackadoodle, un-serious unicorn riders", civil libertarians as "right wing", anti-drone proliferation folks as "luddites" and conspiracy theorists, and anyone else will be painted as "anti-Obama" which will seamlessly segway into anti-Democratic party and "anti" whatever corporate knob polisher the foist on us next, especially if the anointed is Hillary Clinton.

Many Democrats particularly the self described "centrists" have been stung by the "weak on defense" garbage and are pleased as punch to be the bin Laden killing Merry Dronesters, even if it permanently destroys the rule of law. With some folks the short term benefit beats any and all long term harm because of the "we'll fix it later" logic rules as an inarguable defense for any harm.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:31 PM

90. Colorful

and true.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:08 PM

99. Very well said

and about "we'll fix it later". I wish I still had the page up but sure enough, there it was in a reader responses to an article about this. "We'll fix it later"

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Response to Catherina (Reply #99)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:53 PM

104. "We'll fix it later" is the ace in the hole cop out.

Despite never fixing about anything later. Folks will point back to adding on to Social Security (never mind both being yesteryear and not having to reform the base section other than expanding access to more occupations) and some will even resort to Part D to get more current, I guess.

You know because though "it isn't perfect" it helps people.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:36 PM

91. Nah, that'd be too easy to spot. Take the healthcare legislation or wiretapping or...

...any of those current-ish issues. The Obama Administration for whatever reason (LOL!) decides to push GOP/Heritage/Conservative...whatever...and then it's time to "revisit" the idea and "reconsider" the various facets of it, yadda yadda. They're not going to come right out and say "Oh, you know what? Bush/Heritage Foundation/GOP proposed the exact same thing. Now that Obama's pushing that same legislation, maybe Bush/etc. weren't so bad!"

You've got a healthcare law literally designed by the Heritage Foundation and AHA, warrantless wiretaps and especially warrantless data gathering up the ass and all anyone's going to get from them is "Oh, so I suppose drones are the new boogeyman this week?"

The most interesting thing about this is I talk to a shitload of different kinds of people, all walks of life, just about everywhere across the political spectrum. Know what? Nobody talks like the people do on DU. Because the people who are doing this on DU are putting a shot over on ya, it's not real.

If you talk to anyone who's actually in politics, any kind of representative, you don't get the nasty "Why don't you just vote for the Republicans you whiny crybaby!" attitude/bullshit.

Think about that. Think about how people talk to people here versus in real life, especially if you have ever worked with anyone in politics or given them feedback. Almost none of the things that happen here reflect anything you're going to experience dealing with actual politicians or actual politically-involved people.

It's like one of those Japanese theme bars in Tokyo where all the Japanese businessmen go after work, putting on their cowboy clothes and spurs and spend a few hours smoking hand-rolled cigarettes and listening to a player piano. No real cowboys every stop by, if you get my meaning. An unfortunately long time ago, real politicians did stop by DU and post, interact. That's years and years ago. This place is a Democratic Party Theme Bar now. Last time anything remotely real happened here it involved the great interview one of the admins did with Mudcat Saunders. I salute the DU Admins trying to get the place on track, but it's tough to imagine what they could do to actually re-invest this place with the kind of feeling it once had.

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #91)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:42 PM

95. "Democratic Party Theme Bar"

Ha, spot on!

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:38 PM

92. You obviously don't understand...

well... anything.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

93. What, are you nuts?

President Obama isn't even in the same universe as Bush.

Christ on a crutch.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #93)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:42 PM

96. Unless it's the universe of privatization, corporatism, security issues, social programs, etc. nt

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #96)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:39 AM

119. And free trade, and the drug wars, and education policy, and driling, and ...


There's just no comparison.


Corporate and bank-cozy appointments, over and over again
Bailouts and settlements for corrupt banks (with personal pressure from Obama to attorneys general to approve them),
Refusal to prosecute even huge, egregious examples of bank fraud (i.e, HSBC)
NDAA to allow indefinite detention,
"Kill lists" and claiming of the right to assassinate even American citizens without trial
Maintaining Guantanamo Bay and the Patriot Act
Rendition and torture
Expansion of wars into several new countries
A renewed public support for the concept of preemptive war
Drone campaigns in multiple countries with whom we are not at war
Proliferation of military drones in our skies
Federal targeting of Occupy for surveillance and militarized response to peaceful protesters
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for warrantless surveillance
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for strip searches for any arrestee
Increase of media consolidation into the hands of corporate giants
Internet-censoring and privacy-violating measures like ACTA and the new CISPA-like executive order
Support for corporate groping and naked scanning of Americans seeking to travel
A new, massive spy center for warrantless access to Americans' phone calls, emails, and internet use
Support of legislation to legalize such spying
Militarized police departments, through federal grants
Marijuana users and medical marijuana clinics under assault,
Skyrocketing of the budget for prisons.
Supporting a bipartisan vote in Congress to gut more financial regulations.
Passionate speeches and press conferences promoting austerity for Americans, while the
Bush tax cuts were extended for billionaires.
Support for the payroll tax holiday, tying SS to the general fund
Support for the vicious chained CPI cut in Social Security and benefits for the disabled
Social security, Medicare, and Medicaid offered up as bargaining chips in budget negotiations, with no mention of cutting corporate welfare or the military budget
Multiple new free trade agreements, including The Trans-Pacific, otherwise known as "NAFTA on steroids."
Growth of the power of lobbyists to prevent government regulation of corporations.
Support of drilling, pipelines, and selling off portions of the Gulf of Mexico
Expansion of military support into Mali
Corporate education policy including high stakes corporate testing and closures of public schools

In every major policy area that interests the one percent (i.e., that can be translated into profits), this administration has fought aggressively for an agenda and an overall direction that would make George W. Bush proud.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

94. Speak for yourself

I still consider Bush an idiot and a scumbag. It's my opinion of Obama that's deteriorating.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:01 PM

98. Shit, let's go all in. How long before the US does an about face on Bin Laden.

 



If he would had waited until after everyone found out Wall Street was stealing their money and selling them down the river, I think everyone would have been OK with a strike on them.

If he would have waited until everyone found out how much the MIC is stealing from the people of this country, I think people would have been OK with a strike on them.

Up is down. Right is wrong. etc., etc, etc.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:09 PM

107. Given that... Nope, Nope, Nope,

basically, all of your "Obama=Bush" arguments are completely wrong.

Which means that your entire premise is wrong.

WRONG.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:14 PM

108. Some days when reading...

shit on here I feel like I fell down a fucking rabbit hole.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:44 AM

115. You should have been feeling like that for about 30 years now.

 


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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #115)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:34 AM

121. Yeah, I was more worried about..

who was going skating on Friday night 30 years ago.

Maybe the last 20 years I should have been feeling like that...

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:16 PM

109. No, you're not gettin' it here.

Bush has an "R" next to his name representing a political affiliation with the Republican party and any policies espoused by people with an "R" next to their names must be opposed. HOWEVER, when a "D" is listed next to the name, this represents "Democrat," which means those same policies must now be supported.

Let me know if I can clear anything else up for you.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:33 PM

110. No, you gotta remember the goal here.

which is to keep us divided and circling the wagons, so the policies can continue. That would never happen, because Bush is a Republican.

The Blue Team rules for this game require that all Republicans are always evil, and all Democrats are always good, even if they have a history of pushing the exact same policies.

The goal of the game is not to achieve logic or consistency with regard to the policies we support, but rather to make sure we rabidly and reflexively defend ANYTHING our party does when our guy is in office...and that the other side does the exact same thing.

So when a corporate Republican is in office and advances the neocon corporate agenda that harms all of us, steals our money, reduces our standard of living, shreds our civil liberties, and commits bloodshed across the world in our name, our side will get upset, but the Republicans will circle the wagons and make sure the policies are defended. Then, when a corporate Democrat gets into office the next term and continues the exact same corporate neocon agenda, the one percent can count on our side to take up the defense and ensure they can keep right on doing what they are doing.

Back and forth it goes, and we will never be able to unite to stop them.

We have always been at war with Eurasia. And our side will justify the drones and the extrajudicial slaughter and the shredding of our Constitution and the obscene parade of corporate theft and betrayals.... until a Republican is in office again, and it is time for their sheep to circle the wagons for a little while.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:50 PM

112. Naw, couldn't be. Here?

 


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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #112)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:16 AM

114. Now, see, there you go...

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

emphasizing words I didn't even bold...



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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:54 PM

113. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Powell: WMD liars, torturers and felons

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_on_the_Record_Report

This report contains 237 claims for specific misleading statements made by:

* Colin Powell
* Donald Rumsfeld
* Condoleezza Rice
* George W. Bush
* Dick Cheney

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:48 AM

116. So I should be comparing BP to LIHOP?

Do you realize the stretch of the imagination you are perpetrating in this scenario? I suppose Biden gets to play Dick Cheney? Series...that is some BS.

I bet they get PPRd. SOME (lurkers) come forward and test this theory!!

Who wants to take bets?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:51 AM

120. The neat thing about American politics these days...

... is that we can praise our party and criticize the other one even when they do the same things.

Remember the Affordable Care Act was a GOP idea, and was first implemented in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney. We used to hate the idea, and now we like it. The Republicans used to like it, now they hate it.

Same with individual rights in the never-ending war on terror. Bush tossed aside the Geneva Conventions and asserted the right to hold American citizens indefinitely without charge. Obama says he can have American citizens killed without first charging them or trying them. We used to be outraged, but now we support enhanced executive power. The Republicans used to support it, and now-- well, actually, they still support it.

So we can carry on the indefinite war on terror, and implement all the same overreaching policies, but still think that what we're doing is right and what they did is wrong. Rather convenient when you think about it.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:56 AM

125. Yep. How long before the "Bush Wasn't So Bad" OP's appear?

We've already seen some "Reagan Wasn't So Bad" Op's and posts.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #125)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

128. I can hardly wait for the photos of W, Big Dog, and 'Bam hanging out

and doing guy stuff together. Maybe at the Kennebunkport family compound.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:05 PM

126. That is bound to happen

as soon as the right-wing trolls outnumber the Dems on DU - which, at the rate things are going, shouldn't be too long now.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:14 PM

127. Maybe YOU only disagreed with Bush on one specific issue, but some of us don't like him for

a multitude of different reasons -- from the economy to social issues to health care, etc.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:31 PM

132. to the point..you're gonna get hammered for this but i find it refreshingly honest and observant

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:35 PM

133. There is no "DU" opinion. There are DUers with a multitude of opinions.

As can be seen in this thread.

Some DUers are consistent, some are inconsistent.

I think it's something you need to tackle on a case-by-case basis.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:44 PM

138. We are not even close to where we would be if....

the shrub was still in office. The fact that there are a few on this board so politically inept that they think Obama=Bush says a lot.

"how long before he goes from zero to hero?" There is so much fail in this with respect to du it is not even worth addressing.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:46 PM

139. SMH

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 AM

146. NEVER-- that's the one line the Party First crowd will never cross.

They'll rationalize all of his actual *policies*, but they'll never say the guy from the other team was ok.

It's exactly the same as the Republican hypocrites who call Obama a socialist, even when he's pushing their own policies.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:49 AM

147. Are you saying Obama is just like Bush?

Just as bad or even worse? Put your cards on the table. Stop bullshitting around. Say it straight out.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #147)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:59 AM

148. Maybe I should provide a Venn diagram for the logic challenged

On certain issues it could be said Obama is as bad as Bush.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #148)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:46 AM

153. That's one of the better responses I've seen. May I borrow it?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #148)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:57 AM

155. For the common sense challenged..

The overlap is so small no one in their right mind would somehow start viewing Bush as a "hero" based on that.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #148)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:35 PM

160. Still being cagey I see. Scared to say what you really mean. Instead you insinuate about others.

That tactic says a lot about you but nothing about anybody else.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #160)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:47 PM

164. I said what I really mean

your simplistic efforts to get me to say what you mean fall flat.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #148)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

163. 75% of Americans agree "on certain issues"

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:51 AM

150. Tired of seeing this bs post hover near the top of my DU screen.....trashing. nt.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:33 AM

157. Stroke, stroke, stroke.

Insert preferred hand gesture here.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:40 PM

162. It's not that they disagree with Bush's"Smoke 'em out", "Bring it on" policies but....

because he doesn't have a (D) after his name which would render them not just acceptable but embraceable.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:56 PM

165. Exactly. n/t

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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:27 PM

167. Never! Note the difference: (D) vs (R)

 

Bush, for example, provided a direct cash money payout to the people in order to spur the economy. That was his idea of stimulus. Bush, that senior hating bastard, fought for the biggest expansion of medicare in a half century. I could go on, but I wont, because I still hate that fucker.

Bush was, in my opinion, one of the worst Presidents in our history, and his daddy ranks up there as well. I have ZERO support for that bastard and never will, but I am bothered by partisan party bullshit and self delusion, and I am always annoyed when someone looks first to see WHO did something as a measure of how worthwhile that something was. Republicans do this as well. Look at Obamacare. It's a GOP plan and a horrible piece of legislation, it will be a fucking nightmare down the road, but because Obama passed it, we love it and they hate it. It's kindergarten games.

The two parties are virtually identical on everything except social issues -- and even there the differences are more show than substance at the national level. Nor should this surprise anyone. Both parties are funded by the exact same people and corporations, both represent the wealthy, and there are basically just as many wealthy Democrats as Republicans.



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Response to whatchamacallit (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:29 PM

168. Race to the Top=No Child Left Behind

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #168)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:31 AM

172. on steroids. nt

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