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Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:08 PM

Eve Ensler on the passivity of men

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Reply Eve Ensler on the passivity of men (Original post)
babylonsister Feb 2013 OP
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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:10 PM

1. Let me be the first to rec this

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Response to freshwest (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:25 PM

3. lol. i didnt wonder about men until i had two sons and learned

They did not have live with societal conditioned definition of manhood.

They taught me better and to have higher expectations.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)


Response to freshwest (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:50 PM

8. Odd, I have a daughter and two granddaughters

And I still wonder about women.

I saw these two threads one above the other on GD the other day, I thought it was pretty ironic.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:04 PM

10. all you have to do is look at societal conditioning and the difference we treat male and female

sexuality all their lives. it is easy enough to see.

males have societal, cultural, religious approval of their sexuality.

females have societal, cultural, religious disapproval of our sexuality.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:25 PM

14. Our culture is awash to the gunwales with female sexuality and hypersexuality

And it's used to manipulate both men and women for profit and power.

Both sexes get wildly conflicting messages on what is appropriate behavior, it's really a wonder we aren't even more screwed up.








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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:28 PM

15. womens sexuality is only used to promote and give to, entertain and validate mens sexuality

everything about the womans sexuality is giving to men. it is never them owning their sexuality. and with men, it is never handing their sexuality to women. it is always.... taking. (i am not talking rape)

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:40 PM

16. If a man shows one iota of vulnerability in our culture he's dead meat walking

Because someone is going to use that admission of vulnerability against him, it took me to damn near sixty to completely learn that lesson but I have it down now.

And men are on the average more emotionally fragile than women I think.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:44 PM

17. again, something we do not condition our boys with. then on the other hand,

we discuss all this stuff regularly so they have the tools of handling it. i agree with you absolutely.

my oldest GF broke up with him last weekend. was hell. the other morning he comes in at 5 am, wakes me up, and tells me he needs to talk. he gets to be vulnerable and emotional and cry.... with me. NO judging. no repressing. but, we all spent an hour and half in conversation and he was able to put it in a healthy perspective. and i check in with him daily and he discusses.

it sucks fume, making men repress emotion as if they do not have it.

having boys, and knowing from the youngest of age how stupid it is, it is not something we demanded of our boys.

yes, in society they have to present an image. but then, as a woman, i dont want to be that "emotional, weak, weepy" woman i am supposed to be either.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:29 PM

19. I learned that lesson early on in high school.

Thirty years on I am trying to unlearn.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:59 AM

223. Took me to 40

And massive amounts of heart trauma. As another poster said, not going to be that white knight anymore.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #223)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 AM

227. i have never asked for a "white knight". i do expect commen decency and that is not gender

specific. i expect it from myself as a woman and all women, just as much as i expect it from men.

that is all that is being discussed here.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:30 AM

26. +1

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:26 PM

314. For that, you get another heart.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:09 PM

12. Odd you bring this up.

I saw a study the other day that stated that porn viewing on the internet is almost equally divided between men and women.
Not to OP point, but to yours.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:33 AM

22. I don't believe that for a sec. Even if a study says it. I'm over 50; I've pretty much got a handle

on who views porn more.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

194. Don't worry the feminists

will show up to try to say you are wrong. But yes younger women are more open to pornography just like men. Times are changing but the feminist movement will remembered in the history books at this current pace.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:26 PM

4. Dear Eve: Don't assume that the majority of Men are not outraged by the action of rape...

...and many other atrocities (actions and verbally) rained-down upon Women.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:52 PM

96. Do they express that rage to other men

or only to women tho?

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #96)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:05 PM

110. I've talked to men about what a lousy deal that women have had to endure..

...throughout the ages.
They pretty much agreed with my thinking on the subject .

Having said that...The men I know and have formed a relationship with (Friends) tend to be scientists and or jazz musicians with
an understanding or caring attitude regarding the world.

I'll admit..after thinking about it, I might just be seeing your subject through the proverbial Rose Colored Glasses.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:51 AM

126. I think men need to do more than actually discuss. They need to take action.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:51 AM

305. We have similar friends...

scientists, medical people, researchers, artists, musicians but also some small farmers and plant people --men with understanding and a caring attitude are the ONLY men I want to know. I'm lucky, as this also is the type of guy my dad, brothers, and in-law men are/were. So when I am thrown with the overtly sexist types, it's jarring. I always know where they're coming from, not a good place.

HOWEVER--re. Rose Colored Glasses--as sympathetic as all the good guys are --and if it weren't for yall the world would be a really terrible place --there is still a societal abuse of women that is not well understood or accepted. Maybe it's just that the degree to which women have to overcome obstacles on a daily basis, and the stress of that, is not recognised. Maybe that blindness comes from guilt, as what man has NEVER thought he was better off as a man (ie. felt sorry for women)? --and what woman has never thought that it's better to be a man? We live with the subtle unspoken fact that being a man has perks and privileges that being a woman does not. Women still are second-class citizens in this world--even as many are scrambling to change this, and the future does looks brighter. (The future looks brighter for men being able to break out of traditional male expectations also). But the sense of entitlement that even good men grow up with is very hard to change. As long as the general public thinks that having a boy is better than having a girl this will be so. And as long as Rethuglicon and Teabagger thinking finds widespread support...we are in danger of going back to to the real Dark Ages re women. Women are feeling this and fearing this. The gains feel very fragile.

So imagine if you can, what it is like to grow up knowing that you are going to have to fight the female "situation" your whole life, that you are less important in some eyes. To me the bottom line is that women (no matter how successful) often wish they were men, whereas men do not envy women. Whatever can be said to be women's positive values or traits are ridiculed or unappreciated. It is still true that the most successful women are those who can "act like a man."

One day---when men and women can break free of traditional roles and be who they are really are...individual composites of yin/yang (however you define the dichotomies)...that day is quite a ways off. But I can imagine it.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #305)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:00 PM

309. what a very insightful and worth the read post...

i like very much. addressing it from a new angle.

thought provoking, lol. the best. a little more of the onion.

thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #309)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

311. thanks seabeyond

and I know you are doing your best to bring up your boys to recognize and reject sexism and other forms of exploitation. Nip it in the bud. I take heart from the attention to the issues and constant efforts of parents like you. You are creating a better world where it really counts, & deserve encouragement and support.
to you and parents reading this who are also working at this in a conscious way.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #311)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

315. thank you. but the best? they get to shed the conditioning and stereotypes given to men,

provided by the patriarchy. it is freeing for them and that in and of itself is its own reward. which makes it all so very easy for our young boys that are made aware of the restrictions to both genders, and the damage and harm it cause both genders.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #305)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:08 PM

329. I believe your words are true and just but...

A part of me also believes that you underestimate the fact that some people are able to put themselves in somebody else's shoes through some of their own personal experiences. Not necessarily 100% but enough to know an applicable amount of fear and frustration and torment on a daily basis...and therefore what women experience.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #329)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:46 PM

354. i think it is a possibility if a man really wants to see. absolutely. i think even more so

if he asks questions to better understand. sheeesh, my 13 yr old son (a few years back) recognized a man was being awfully sexist in a conversation. talking down and condescending to me having to do with my car. i didnt pay much attention cause i just went over him to the boss and told him what i wanted. but a little later my son said something to me. i was thrilled he was able to recognize without any nudges from me.

so, yes.

but, i think that ghost is saying is there is a natural instinct within us that does not want to see.

i love this cartoon.

hey, and it is with both genders. until i could see, i couldnt see so much, only some.






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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #329)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

380. Yes, they/you are out there--and the more

both men and women are exploited by ruthless corporate interests, maybe that understanding will spread.

I do think that some smarter, more perceptive men are sympathetic, but it is only human to feel the "thank god, at least I'm not a woman..." type of empathy, when you yourself are under stress. The corporates who control us love to keep us all in fear and frustration, & divided. We are all stressed more than we should be. Hard to feel generous and positive, in these uncertain times.

So--how do you see the "rose-colored glasses" you refer to?

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #380)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:53 PM

398. I tend to hang around with good people...those that it's hard to say an unkind word about or..

...are reluctant to say an unkind word (just about) anybody else.

I'd like to see the world as it really is but the thought actually unnerves me.
As it is, I'm just crawling through reality...trying not to step on anybody's dreams.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:30 PM

5. I totally agree with her, but I'm not impressed by her 'awareness' raising methods, which seem

pretty and passive themselves. Dance videos? Sorry.

Nice try with her videos but they do a pretty electric slide by solutions, and even make women look as if they needn't be taken seriously. I'd venture that Eve Ensler makes the male power structure chuckle -- and dominance-driven laugh -- with her feel-good non-solutions. If these videos have even entered their radar.

I would offer that Andrea Dworkin had better explanations about the passivity of men and offered better solutions than pointing and dance videos. Andrea Dworkin showed how passive men are complicit in maintaining the male social, religious and economic power structure that invisibly keeps women struggling and suffering.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:44 PM

7. I don't think it's really about "good men" vs "bad men"....

I think, rather, that the issue here is how sexism and misogyny are so institutionalized and so embedded in society, that the ideology of said sexism and misogyny is pervasive.

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my damnedest to try to be aware, understand, empathize, and bridge the gaps of experience and social class. Ignorance or apathy is no excuse for bigotry.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:01 PM

9. but even better, you can completely see it from a mans view and i think

what the woman is saying that as a man, you can speak for and to men, and be all over it from a mans perspective.

so when men are sexist and misogynist, you know as a man that that is not a biological action, innate of men, and as a man can speak out to men.

i have always felt that i have a responsibility to speak to the wrongs of women, to women, because i am a part of that group. i will be heard most because i am a part of that group.

just as i feel americans should stand up to americans. christians should stand up to christians. men need to stand up to men when their behavior is sexist and it not be acceptable.

nothing makes me feel better than to hear my husband say something out loud, for my boys to pick up, that is supportive of women. that is so much more effective than my voice. simply because he is a man, and understands the life of man.

thanks for your post. you made me think thru it a little more.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:41 AM

62. Likewise, thanks for your post.

Us men do have a responsibility to stand up to other men, I agree.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

69. And yet...

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

... you write in support of a post in which a woman tells you what men think.

If you "know in your heart that you will never completely see things from a woman's perspective", then why treat the OP as useful and productive? Do you believe that women are capable of knowing what you think to such a degree that she's qualified to explain those thoughts to you?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:52 PM

85. It's asking men to have empathy and solidarity....

And you're characterizing that as somehow a bad thing? How is it unreasonable? (Without making it about you or the plight of men) how is that a bad or unreasonable thing?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:49 PM

433. *crickets*

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:54 PM

493. Thank you for trying to understand.

It is much appreciated.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:05 PM

11. On what basis is she assuming men aren't angry about rape and humiliation of women?

Excuse me... "good men". Obviously the bad men don't believe buy into idiotic sweeping generalizations.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:10 PM

13. Ironic sidenote: I'm a bad man and a horrid human being and I'm *still* anti-rape

Maybe if Ms Ensler directed her anger at Republican congressmen who make casual dismissals of the horrors of sexual assault, she'd do the cause more good.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:32 AM

28. On the basis that they get all dismissive, pissy and make it

As if its all about them personally.
Call it derailing, or gaslighting but a common reaction of good men is to take offense and of quibble instead of considering that there's a lot of truth to what women are trying to tell you.
Instead of supporting or listening to women, we had a whole lot of threads from men about how THEY are good guys, and only sociopaths rape, so it's inevitable. You know, the nice guy way of telling us to STFU about it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:13 AM

117. +10000000000000000000000000000000

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:11 AM

288. Well said. Many posts in this thread perfectly illustrate the factuality of your post. nt

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:27 PM

369. If someone doesn't want good men to start from a defensive stance, then

they shouldn't implicitly accuse them of being passive about rape.

Doing so can justifiably be perceived as aggressive/accusatory, which is not very effective when trying to explain something or win allies.

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #369)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:40 PM

373. When they completely refuse to discuss the topic....

Whether its because they want to split hairs or go on about some random woman not being nice to them.... It starts to be all about them. And it's not about an individual man ...never was. This word game gets played out after the first 30 or so times.
Commonly, they don't want a honest discussion.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #373)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:43 PM

374. They probably refuse to discuss the topic because it began with an implicit attack.

This seems like a good lesson in how to start a conversation.

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #374)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

377. So they come only to derail it. Trolling, basically.

True for some, no doubt!

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #374)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:09 PM

414. It's only an attack if you're guilty of what someone is talking about

Otherwise, it's a statement to start a discussion. Why so defensive?

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #414)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:48 PM

421. True- quite a few of the men here have explained their non support due to bitterness....

Rejection by random individual females is a big excuse. Also angry some women support the patriarchy, and some don't.
And some women were snippy!

So, yeah the OP is an attack on them. A well deserved one.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:24 PM

18. I love Eve Ensler and I think she is making a valid point.

If you haven't seen The Vagina Monologues yet, do yourself a favor.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:32 PM

20. Men as protectors...

All in all, I think men have taken the bulk of responsibility for protecting family and country.

Think about how many have been beaten, mutilated and killed in doing so. Millions.

Now ask again.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:01 AM

33. Historically, most men protected only what they perceive as their own....

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:09 PM - Edit history (1)

And for many- it continues today. They are not just doing this out of the good of their hearts, its purely selfish behaviour. It's on this thread.

If they stopped looking at everything (including women) as something to be taken, it would go a long way to change things.

Edited to clarify- we were talking about men "have always protected" home and country, as if its a good and pure thing. Sorry- it ain't selfless when you profit, and the majority of men have.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:08 AM

34. i am thinking rape as a tool in war. the other side "protecting" while raping and vice versa.

the post kinda didnt work.

want to talk about men in the past being the ones putting their life out there, fine. (now a days it is both gender that puts life out there)

but, the point of the post really did not work.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:08 AM

35. Gotcha. We're evil. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:11 AM

37. really? that is how you reduce the conversation. dont buy what you say,

and that is what you reduce it to?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:21 AM

38. Come on now, you can't whine about how hard you all have it...

And refuse to examine how you all got yourselves into that position in the first place. That's complete bullshit.
No one said you're evil- but it appears you're unable to have an honest conversation about it.
It appears whining and licking your wounds is the only thing you have to offer.
That's how you derail. Fuck that, were sick of the whining.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

71. Make up your mind.

Either smear us because we stand around passively allowing you to fight your own battles, or because, "driven through madness into action" we chivalrously ride to the rescue of helpless lady fair.

...but stop trying to have it both ways.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:12 PM

75. There's a middle road. But you need to respect and care about women

(Women in general)in order to even find it.
Seems like the guys here prefer not to even consider that there might be a better way. Because stewing in resentment is more fun?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:36 PM

77. The middle of the road is paved with squashed skunks.

We as citizens must do everything practically possible to prevent criminals (men or women) from victimizing (men or women).

In a society based on equality, neither men nor women are relegated to a more prominent place among the population of victims or offenders.

All forms of violence and victimization must be reduced even further. As noted downthread, the rape incidence today is one-fifth what it was when I was a teen, and it is appropriate to applaud that success while setting up the conditions to make even more improvement in the future.

Collective guilt doesn't help, it harms.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:44 PM

94. You're smarter than this B&W either/ or mindset...

You don't fool me.
And your stats are way skewed. Like it or not, men are much more prone to serious physical violence. I don't know why you'd bother trying to imply otherwise.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #94)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:28 PM

346. Men are also more prone to be *victims* of serious physical violence.

While Ms Ensler thinks "good men" are too passive to prevent violence against women, it seems to me that this is better than pretending it isn't happening.

When a man beats a woman, it's a crime. When a man beats a man, it's a fight. When a woman beats a man it's "you go girl".

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:30 PM

347. Yes! Why don't men stop hurting everyone?

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:54 PM - Edit history (1)

It's an epidemic.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #347)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:34 PM

349. It's a fixable problem.

Although all forms of violent crime are down, rape has declined 85% since 1980.

It's appropriate to spread that awareness, attention and focus to the bigger picture of violent victimization.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #349)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

378. One in three or four is seriously fucked up.... Which is why we're

Basically asking men to ALSO deal with it productively.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #378)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:17 PM

402. According to the DOJ, .84 people per thousand (aged 12 and over) are raped each year.

If only women and girls answered the questioner in the affirmative, then this roughly equates to one 1.7 women per thousand per year (.17%). If the average woman lives 60 years in adulthood, her lifetime risk is about 10%.

In 1980, the victimization rate was 2.4 people per year, (or .48% of women). If 1980 rates had remained stable, that is a lifetime risk of about 29%.

Here's something to consider. Feminist theory says that men run this society and are responsible (via "the rape culture") for the crimes perpetrated by other men (that is in fact the basis of the OP).

If that is true, then men ARE dealing with the crime of rape "productively" by having reduced your risk by 85%

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #402)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:48 PM

410. And 99% of the rapists are men.... So kind of premature to

pat yourself on the back. Men own 99% of this problem. Instead of having an honest discussion, they complain about women not being nice enough to them. You start to get the sense they feel women have this coming to them.

At any rate, that study departs so radically from every other study ever made (and leaving out under 12 year olds is just horrible) that it is just not credible. But i won't get sidetracked by attempts to imply its not a serious issue anymore. Not having that discussion with you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #410)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:32 PM

418. Define "serious issue".

A 10% lifetime risk constitutes a serious issue. It's unnecessary and counterproductive to invent statistics for the purpose of denigrating the progress we've made as a society.

The DOJ isn't "just another study". They are the official numbers.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #418)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:34 PM

419. Not doing it, sorry.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #402)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 PM

471. it might help

if you actually read some feminist theory before mis-characterizing it.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:06 PM

413. that is ludicrous

Women commit far fewer violent crimes than men, and they are prosecuted for domestic violence. I'm sorry your life is miserable and that you despise women, but lying doesn't help your case at all.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #413)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:27 PM

416. Strong words. Weak evidence. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #416)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:03 PM

434. I provided evidence

and your hatred of women is evident whenever you post. It's sad really. It's like working class whites blaming unions for their poverty. It's completely nonsensical.
Look at rape stats. 99% of perpetrators are male, and 91% of victims are female. You would blame women for those 9% of rapes committed against men. Blaming women for crimes clearly perpetrated by men makes no sense.

Why must you think of yourself as victim? If you developed a more positive outlook, you would do a lot better. Going around blaming women for your problems in life is absurd. So a woman dumped you. That doesn't make women responsible for all the evil on earth. We all get dumped. That's part of life. I was married to a physically abusive husband. If I nursed the amount of hostility toward men that you do toward women, It would only make me miserable. 25% of women in this country are raped. They eventually recover, and many go on to marry and sustain other loving relationships. The reason to let go of resentment is because you are the one who suffers most. Whatever woman wronged you doesn't feel your anger. Only you feel it. One becomes prisoner of his own resentment. It poisons life.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #434)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:37 PM

437. "Nursing hostility? Nope. I married once and well.

But then again, I'm not the one psychoanalyzing you.

And an ad-hominem is not "evidence". The dictionary is your friend. Look up "projection" while you're in there.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #437)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:43 PM

449. well, I was trying to understand your issues

with women. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you had some personal hurt that prompted your resentment Obviously I was mistaken. Your misogyny is a committed philosophical choice.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #449)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:37 PM

453. Back up a step.

You can understand my issues with women by understanding that I don't have any.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #453)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

455. some things are obvious, Jack

That you hate women is one of the them.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #455)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:47 PM

458. Obvious?

Your ability to argue a point is tragically and irredeemably compromised.

That's what "obvious" means.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #458)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:56 PM

460. tell you what

take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #460)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:59 PM

461. Could you recommend a few? n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #461)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:59 PM

462. where do you live?

Oh, you thought I might bear some shame from having gone to a shrink? Nope. None. No more than anyone should be ashamed for going to an MD.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #462)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:01 PM

464. If I had my preferred MD's sorted by geography

It might be reasonable to question my general state of physical health.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #464)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:03 PM

465. wow, your responses to straight forward questions

aren't any more understandable. I give up.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #465)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:05 PM

467. Run away or I shall taunt you some more. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #467)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:07 PM

468. you underestimate me

Your taunts merely reflect your own character. You can't effect how I feel about myself. You don't have that kind of power.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #468)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:09 PM

469. Hurt feelings

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

It's what you get after the third time you call someone a woman-hating misogynist.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #469)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:03 PM

472. there is an easy solution

Don't express your views in public. Or if you must, own them.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #464)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:05 PM

466. Oh, I get it now

another swipe at my mental health. Classy, Jack.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:21 PM

415. actual crime stats

Within the US, women are men are close in rates of victimization of violent crimes:

Table 2. All personal crimes men 2,693,460 21.9 women 2,299,760 17.8

Perpetrators of violent crimes are overwhelmingly male. It's not even close.

Table 38 Single offenders:
Crimes of violence 3,652,340 100 % 77.6 19.0 3.4 (sex of offender)
Table 44 multiple-offenders:
Crimes of violence 946,580 100 % 63.0 9.2 19.6 8.2 (sex of offender)


http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2218

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #415)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:28 PM

417. So, by "lie" you mean "truth". Apology accepted.

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

FWIW, you still don't have it right.

The victimization rate for violent crime against men is 25.4%, among women it is 19.8%. That's nearly a 30% difference.

In fact, the men's victimization rate rose 27% last year.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #417)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:43 PM

430. and men are the perpetrators

You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #430)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:34 PM

436. No. I blame criminals for violence against men and women.

Collective guilt much?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #436)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:44 PM

450. exactly

collective guilt is what you impose on all women.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #450)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:39 PM

454. I get the logic.

"I was married to an abusive man, so men should be punished".

It's your leap from "man" to "men" that I have a problem with. It's the definition of stereotype.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #454)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

456. where did I say men should be punished?

Provide one example. Go on. Given your assertion they should be easy to locate.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #456)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:42 PM

457. The repetitive, redundant omnipresent observation that most criminals are men depends on the premise

Otherwise it is completely irrelevant.

Women need protection!
-Most violent crime victims are men.
Liar. Victimizers are usually men.
-"A" has no relevance to "B". Besides, a) is true and here is the proof.

If you're not saying that men should be punished, or deserve lesser consideration when victimized, your trademark phrase is a complete non-sequitur.

But it isn't a non-sequitur. You are clearly saying that men who are the victims of crime don't merit equal treatment... because they are men, like the perpetrator.

It's the same logic that gives racists the excuse to ignore inner city crime.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/11/black-crime-who-cares

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #457)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:55 PM

459. actally I provided statistical evidence

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

to counter your male victimization whine. You insisted that men were victims of crimes and women were perpetrators. I believe all criminals should receive a trail and be punished if found guilty. I do not--and never have--make exceptions based on sex. In fact, I have consistently argue that female statutory rapists be treated every bit as severely as male ones because the crimes are identical.

Your very argument equates maleness with criminality, while I made no such point. I merely pointed to statistics that show that men commit the vast majority of violent crimes because you insisted men were disproportionately victims, clearly a false assertion. Evidently you despise information so much that being presented with it is--for you--evidence of misandry.

You need to provide quotes where I make any of the absolutely absurd accusations you make. I NO Where said male victims of crime don't merit equal treatment.

I live in the inner city. I've spent all day defending Dorner's victims, many of whom are male police officers. You have no evidence for such accusations. Your responses are not rational.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #459)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:00 PM

463. I didn't say that.

Maybe it was the voices.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #463)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:07 PM

473. You still have no evidence

to support your allegations against me. And, one has to wonder, why you find the mere citation of crime stats so objectionable? You claim that by simply providing that information and nothing more I insisted that "all men be punished,' as though all men were criminals. Nor have you explained why you insist on blaming women for the fact that more men are crime victims, when statistically evidence shows that the overwhelming number of perpetrators are men.

Moreover, you appear to have no ability to defend your outrageous allegations and instead result to juvenile insults.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #473)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:02 AM

474. Let's clear something up.

I don't think, and have never said, that women are to blame for the fact that most violent crime victims are men.

...Not that I really expect you to stop saying it anyway. At some point, the internal dialog becomes reality.

However, I do blame you (and those who think like you) that their victimization is acceptable because they are men.

Nor have you explained why you insist on blaming women for the fact that more men are crime victims, when statistically evidence shows that the overwhelming number of perpetrators are men.


a) I don't. See above.
b) We're making some progress. Now you're telling me "the facts" that just yesterday you called me a liar about.
c) Is a man mugged/assaulted/murdered by another man less of a victim?

Any answer to "C" other than "No." (including "No, but...") are proof of my theory.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #474)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:30 PM

478. find one example

One, where I claim "victimization is acceptable because they are men." That exists ony in your head, no where else. If you think otherwise, PROVE IT.


You claim the mere fact of citing crime stats indicates I think male victims of crime don't matter. If that were true, you have a massive lawsuit against DOJ, since they actually publish reams of crime stats. You hate facts because it contradicts your sad little persecution complex that all women are out to get you.

You've sad you have no personal experiences that indicate women are you enemies, so what causes you to hate us so? What makes you think you are threatened by competition from women who earn 77 cents for every dollar a man does?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #473)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:39 AM

476. Juvenile insults like "take your posts to a shrink" or "That is delusional"?

I don't think you should be casting stones about juvenile insults.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #476)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:19 PM

477. you clearly misunderstood

1) his points are misogynist. That is hardly disputable. He refuses to see the obvious. So a psychological professional, I suggested, could evaluate them, not that he should consult a shrink for his mental health. As I made it quite clear, I see no shame is seeking psychological care, so how would that be an insult on my part?

2) are you really claiming his posts are rational?

3) I deleted the reference to delusional. Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members is not only unethical, it violates community standards. You are hardly in a position to pass judgement.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #477)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:18 PM

479. What does "Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members" mean?

If you've seen the results of the jury on which I sat, it's clear I just said what I've said now.

At Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:02 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I didn't say that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370759

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Insulting someone for being mentally ill is a clear violation of community standards and TOS.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:35 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: BainsBane has, in this thread, said lumberjack_jeff was lying, needed to see a psychiatrist, and is delusional. Those posts have stood for hours. And yet, when lumberjack_jeff replies in kind with 'voices', the alert turns up within 3 minutes. With no evidence that the alerter has been trying to get BainsBane's posts removed too, I'm going to say that, since BainsBane is clearly fine with insulting someone for being mentally ill, there's no harm in this post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Constant alerter whining and the resulting censorship and chilled atmosphere for people to speak their minds freely make DU suck. LEAVE IT.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, I don't see the insult.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nope. Not going for it. BainsBain initiated that slander in this thread and the supposition of untrue facts, along with positing an argument to LJ that LJ did not make so that she could slander him for that argument. BainsBain sowed this and is reaping it now.

Not locking LJ out of this thread...wish I could send BainsBain and bettyellen to the doghouse though for making me read this, it's so logically-disjointed they broke the back of their own argumentation 25 posts ago. If you don't want to face insinuations that you're crazy, don't post crazy-talk.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This thread is filled with anger and accusations flying back and forth. The poster whose post was alerted upon appears to be goaded into making a verbal mistake. I think everyone involved should attend group therapy together. (BTW, I'm female.)

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


I was juror #2. I insulted nobody - neither the alerter, nor you (though it now seems more likely that it actually was you alerting).

You regard lj as misogynist. He doesn't agree. That does not mean he should see a shrink. You have reaped what you sowed.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #479)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:39 PM

480. You used that experience as a juror

to attack me in this thread. Serving as a juror is a trust, not a vehicle for you to then use to attack members. The reference you refer to had been deleted a good 12 hours before your post in this thread.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #480)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:37 PM

481. At least you accept I have not insulted you in any way.

I was pointing out your hypocrisy. And, no, what I pointed out has not yet been deleted from this thread:

430. and men are the perpetrators

You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2363369


460. tell you what

take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370728


What you did edit out, after the alert result, in which I pointed out your use of accusations of mental illness, was post #459: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370723 , from which you removed "That is entirely a function of your own paranoid misogyny", six minutes after the jury results were returned. So there was actually one more use by you of a mental illness term, against lumberjack_jeff, which seems to have been on your conscience. You then removed it, and proceeded to accuse l_j of 'juvenile insults', despite your own insults of him, and after the alert had been turned down 5-1.

There is nothing wrong with posting in a thread after serving on a jury for it. Many people do this, especially when they see an alert which they think is unjustified, and they think the alert and the claims behind it need to be seen in the open. When I saw you had accused l_j of 'juvenile insults' after you had been told, in the alert result, that you had done it first, I thought this needed to been seen by DU in general.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:11 AM

173. This is the best response in this thread

The feminist movement is starting to paint itself in the corner with such conflicting messages. No wonder the younger generation looks down on it with so much disdain.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:20 AM

177. actually, there is a rebirth to the feminist movement with our young of both genders. so your

conclusion is incorrect.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #177)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:39 AM

190. There is no re-birth and only delusional Feminists believe

this to be the case. Anti woman legislation is growing stronger in response to the dying feminist movement. To stop the growing anti woman legislation it will take more than shaming of men.

More and more younger men are choosing not to marry young, because of soaring divorce rates led by women. Instead they are choosing to puruse hobbies (gaming, lifting) or careers. Woman now have more independence, but they can't ask for the white knight to show up anymore because he isn't coming.

Can't have it both ways, and no there isn't a middle ground, because if you straddle that fence long enough it's going to hurt.

A woman telling what men should be thinking and feeling is equally as bad as men telling how a woman should deal with rape.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #190)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:48 AM

204. like there is any expectation of you being knowledge about the subject, having invested a single

moment of your time on womans issues.

ya, totally ignore the point on ALL the angry men that have supposedly checked out.

read the posters on du that are angriest toward women... they are men looking for love and cant find it. and are angry cause they cant. sad. but there to see.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #204)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:52 AM

213. Angry men have checked out and so have the passive men

Women are adults, so either act like an adult, or you can go back to being called a girl that needs a helicopter parent hovering you to protect you 24/7. BTW I thought Beyonce was hot during her Super Bowl performance. You mad?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #213)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:56 AM

219. your post is beyond silly.... find that harmony dude, feels good, truly. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #219)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 AM

229. Dude = passive aggressive attack like saying "chick" or "babe".

And you know it and use it like a baby weapon. Anger all over the place.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #229)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:05 AM

233. no, it does not. dude/dudette. in your movies. hey dude.... calif time.

but, ya, i get that you want a level playing field on this sexist argument and go to great lengths to create.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #229)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:20 AM

247. Dude is a friendly term. Mock outrage.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #247)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:25 AM

252. Would these be examples of how you use it in a "friendly way"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125515598

An OP entitled "If Consent Was Really That Hard, Whiny Dudes Would Fail At Every Aspect of Life"

Doesn't sound all that friendly.

How about this one: "Yo, dudes: Alpha males are a myth, according to actual experts on wolves "

or this one: "A Bunch Of Sad, Insecure Dudes Attacked A Woman And Everyone Got What They Deserved"

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #219)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:04 AM

232. As a passive male I refuse to help

Call me a pascifist, passive, or weak male all you want. But I am already attacked on a daily basis for being kind to animals by men and women, or showing empathy for someone hurt. I don't need feminists to be piling on as well. Thanks for showing what an "empathetic" human being you are, and how "beautiful" you are as well.

May your infamy live forever.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #232)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:06 AM

234. dont want your help. really. if you do not have it in you, who the fuck cares. BUT... do not

even suggest that you are about merely being passive. you are the problem. you cannot be the solution.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #234)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:08 AM

237. We don't need an invitation to help.

Many of us have pointed out in this thread that we DO help.

What we are wondering is why someone started an OP that says that men are passive and not helping.

It seems clearly counterproductive.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #237)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:26 AM

254. Because we have seen and heard men being passive and not helping?

Are you implying women are making this up- just to make you feel bad? Kind of paranoid, no? And hella insulting towards women.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #254)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:28 AM

257. Let's try a test.

A. The Passivity of Men
B. Why are some men passive?

A. The Cowardice of Men
B. Why are some men cowardly?

Are you, Betty, able to tell how the difference in grammar makes a dramatic difference in how those statements read?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #257)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:46 PM

355. The OP states she's over "the passivity" of men

Not men, not passive men.
You know what I'm over? This parsing bullshit.
You might not know what a dude is if you aren't an American, but you and too many men here are deliberately misquoting the OP. and then try and split hairs.
Won't participate in attempts to derail. Have at the false outrage all you want. It's crap, and only the angry (at women) young men here buy that BS.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #234)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:16 AM

243. Yes passive men are the problem, so are the aggressive men

and then those men that are passive/aggressive with massive mood swings are not mentally stable. But then they are part of the problem too? So what men are left? Thanks for showing your true colors though!

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #243)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:24 AM

251. we are not talking about you. again, no expectation. we are talking about the men that get it,

that are on this thread, that address men like you. lol

what a fuckin' hoot.

no one expects a single thing out of you

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #232)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:58 PM

422. Infamy? WTF. funnier than dragging Beyonce into this. LOL

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #213)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:00 PM

494. God, you are so juvenile.

Are you living in your mom's basement?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:27 AM

182. It's absurdly reductionist. Anyone who can't see any choice but

To be the dominant / protector or the silent enabler has an extremely limited view of their own capabilities. Shockingly regressive nonsense, sad to see this in DU.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:00 PM

411. What a disgusting and untrue statement.

My husband will help people regardless of gender, race, age.

I do the same, and your post should be alerted on becuse it is beyond sexist. Look in the mirror. I am so appalled at what you wrote----I have to say you really give my gender (female) a bad name with posts like this.

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #411)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:05 PM

412. I really appreciate your post.

It is all too easy to forget that the people speaking out here are about three women in total and there opinion is clearly not representative or, after 411 posts, we would see the rest of the DU female community come out and support their man-bashing.

Instead, they have been left out to dry by the people they claim to speak for.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #412)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:44 PM

431. Says the man who posits we should be grateful for ....

Men protecting us from other men.
Jeeze, thanks dudes.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #431)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:03 PM

435. Hmmm, lemme check...

Nope, never said that.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #435)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 PM

438. Sure you did- got very upset I wasn't grateful for men's

Historical role as protector and defender of their nation. And instead pointed out these were not selfless acts. You were irate.

You whined about it for several more posts scattered through out the thread. All that obsessing about the issue and it never occurred to you that we shouldn't be grateful because this "protecting" crap is basically a turf war caused by and perpetuated by men?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #438)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:40 AM

440. Even one quote showing that would be nice.

Happy to see that you are still using the word "whine". Very grownup, Betty.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #440)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:49 AM

441. The men who school us on tone have a problem accepting how whiney they come off.

And can't find their own posts about how we should appreciate how men bleed and die for us lovely damsels. Even though you refer to my response three more times, you've forgotten it all now.

You're sad that the violence and agression of men is not roundly celebrated on a progressive web site. I can't even wrap my head around that expectation. Good luck with that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #441)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:55 AM

442. Congrats! You have taken wackiness to a whole new level.

You are living inside a world of your own making.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #442)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:28 AM

444. And you are stuck clinging to the notion that

Men's tendency towards "protection" and the violence and war that comes with it is somehow a good thing. Sorry you're stuck in the last century.
You can deny all you'd like. It's here. I'm not going to fetch it for you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #444)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:27 AM

447. So then you're saying that Ms Hensler's advice should be ignored.

She (and those for whom she speaks) doesn't need our protection because doing so would only be an expression of our warlike ownership of her.

I kid. I know the answer. Men should be punished for proprietarily protecting and defending in response to Ms Hensler's plea, AND punished for passively ignoring them.

In other words, there's no way to do the right thing, which makes it impossible to take you seriously. If you're simply driven by antipathy toward men, there's no point listening.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #447)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:37 PM

451. Damned if you do, damed if you don't...

There is an echo of these threads, going back over 40 yrs. (the time when modern women's rights took to the streets). There was a time in modern feminism when men were told to shut the fuck up when it came to group decision-making, in favor of "concensus-building." A time when men were told to quit characterizing/analyzing women, in favor of self-determination (though women had no problem returning the favor, out of equity I suppose). A time when men were told they may hold up the end of the ladder, but to stay out of the contractor's trailer.

Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.

And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:

"See? You are the problem."

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #451)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:41 PM

483. all the talk about failed relationships and anger at random women is "reasonable discussion"?

On what planet? You have to be joking.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #483)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:10 AM

485. That "talk" is your's or someone else's, not mine. Miss-post?

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #485)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:51 PM

486. no, I was replying to your claim that men who lack the capability for empathy and support are

trying to have a reasonable discussion. In most cases, in this very thread, it comes down to the random grievances against individual women leaving them embittered.
Not reasonable or productive discussion. More like bald faced disruption.


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Response to bettyellen (Reply #486)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 03:02 PM

487. You still don't make sense. I made no claims of the nature you describe or conjure.

You might clarify your composition. Who and what is "disruptive?"

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #487)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 03:10 PM

488. could you clarify this about what "new narrative" might be- if not asking for support and empathy...

(which sounds damned reasonable to me) and let me know where all that "reasonable discussion" you see here that is met with anger and blame? Those are clearly your claims, are they not? Just trying to find the attacks on all those 'reasonable men".



'Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.

And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:

"See? You are the problem."'

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #488)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 05:17 PM

489. Men are now expected to take an activist role when once they were expected to remain in the b.g.

Good enough for a "good man?"

You should take ownership of your long-stale attitudes toward men. Fortunately, it seems most women (including those on D.U.) don't cotton to your views of men, either.

Take note: I have fought for women's rights for a long time, and will continue to do so.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #489)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:15 AM

490. if having common decency is "being an activist" (huh?) is way too much for ask then the good man

ain't as good as he thinks. There's nothing stale about asking people to live their values.

There is no "new suit of armor" or "white knighting" involved at all. No damsels in distress, LOL. Those are the fevered imaginings of of MRA. Their new talking points. Truly embarrassing stuff to read here.

Trust me, you have no idea how most women on DU feel. You know how five or six men who disrupt every thread they can find on the topic of feminism feel.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #490)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:51 AM

491. I've always believed if your values are strong enough...

they will survive the petty and petulant natterings of those nominally one your side, whose main goals are moral condemnation and superior self-exaltation at the drop of a hat. Keep your peculiar acronyms and electro-smirks to yourself. The battle for equal rights and self-determination of all peoples is more important to me than some shrill finger-pointing. Perhaps on the "front lines" somewhere we'll meet (for real) and gain a more positive appraisal of each other.

Would you like a Farenthold for Governor t-shirt?
It is quite old and no linger fits. Provide a "safe" land address and it is your's.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #491)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:05 AM

492. Shrill, LOL. Smirks? You have quite the thin skin, and fevered imagination... but I knew that after

seeing your vaguely hostile "natterings"

When you're next on the "front lines" please do share your complaints about about being fitted for new armor with my sisters. I can assure you the finger pointing will be accompanied by nothing more than robust guffaws. And you probably thought we were humorless!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #492)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:20 PM

496. Guffaws not withstanding, do you want the T?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #447)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:39 PM

482. as I said before, empathy and support. your post is complete gibberish that has nothing to do with

anything at all that has been said here. It's MRA filth that doensn't even address the issue in the OP.

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #411)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:03 PM

424. I should have prefaced this with historically ....

And that's the origins of why men protected homes and nation- because there were direct benefits to them by doing so.
since I was responding to someone who was talking about "men have always" protected- I thought it would be clearer. Because we were their property not long ago.
I should fix it. Thanks!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:01 PM

423. I don't disagree bettyellen but life is more complicated.

I agree that a lot of the justifications for violence and war falsely claim killing to be about protection instead of ownership and dominance. But I think it is worth pointing out that a person who cannot engage in these monstrous behaviors themselves to any degree is more likely to be a victim. There is some truth to the idea that sometimes violence is necessary to protect you and yours.

I think taken to its logical extreme your post implies that fathers and mothers don't fight to the death for their kids because of the same emotions. A woman selflessly nurtures her children, while a man selfishly possesses them. This may be true for the gender roles of many patriarchal traditions, but I do not think it is naturally the case.

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Response to Threedifferentones (Reply #423)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:04 PM

425. It's not "more complicated", it's much simpler.

Men and women love their mates and their families and want to nurture and protect them. Period.

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Response to Threedifferentones (Reply #423)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:40 PM

428. I agree.. It was a sloppy post but in essence the roots of what he asks

We celebrate - that we thank men for are horribly tainted. And taking on the "role as protector" is actually a huge problem men cause themselves.
If they weren't what most often might need protecting from... then there might be something laudable about the whole thing.
Sadly- men have put themselves in the position of being both the sickness and the cure.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:39 AM

189. I read an article by a feminist suggesting the same thing

That men are not equally treated either, certainly in ways different than a woman but societal expectations of men remaining largely unchallenged and unchanged. I had always thought that was my role, noone showedme otherwise andmy father was the same way, be strong, protect and serve. Has it gained me anything outside of what any man can expect? No. In fact I'm tired of it. It has proven worthless in relationships as I heal the wounded and protect the fragile only too see them leave without so much of a thank you when they have mended and found greener pasture. Yes, that part was a rant.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #189)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

193. Prepare yourself

My powers of prediction tell me you will soon be called a whiner and mocked for being a coddled child-man who expects that you will get "teh sex" just for being nice.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #193)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:45 AM

202. You make assumptions

But I will take your comment lightly. Because you are not me, and do not know me, it's understanding that you do not know what you are takling about. As I ended my comment as a rant, it would serve to inform those that I have a personal reason for doing so. I do not mind going into detail the reasons for my feelings but I will not go into greath length here. If you are interested I will message you with details of the past 20 years of my life starting with the most recent events.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #202)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:49 AM

206. You mistook my intent.

I am not calling you those things. That was a preview of what you are likely to be called by the 3 or so women ripping apart everyone man on this thread.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #206)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:50 AM

208. I see now, thank you

I read some other posts and was seeing the pattern there too. Sorry for my overreaction.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #208)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:53 AM

215. No problem at all. nt

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #189)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:14 AM

291. It's great that you are now aware a shitty role was handed to you...

Shedding that role is difficult, but worthwhile if you want to engage with women on equal ground instead of as a protector. Those roles are a burden on both parties, in very different ways.
When you understand being a good person is its own reward and not expect a payoff, you will be much happier, and find others that want to be with you- instead of feeling compelled by your expectations.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:29 AM

21. Where are we?

The prevailing attitude seems to be that we're not wanted in that role.

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Response to theKed (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:42 AM

23. The friend zone. Where good guys go to die. nt

 

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:03 AM

27. how dare a woman

decide a man is not .... fuckable.

what a whine.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:36 AM

30. I thought only HS boys skulked around girls they do not want to be friends with .....

Desperately hoping to get laid as a reward for pretending to be nice? Time to grow the fuck up!

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:16 AM

118. You have got to be kidding me.

Please tell me that's sarcasm, and you're making fun of the misogynist fucks who think the 'friend zone' is an actual thing.

(Clue for any readers who are still clueless: There is no friend zone. There is friendship. If you want sex and your friend doesn't, move on, get over it - she's just not that into you. Women are not sex vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until sex falls out. Deal.)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:30 AM

121. ohhh, redqueen. say it sister. that is a very concise, clear way to explain it.

I like

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:28 AM

141. This thread is unbelievable.

I'm going back to bed.

With the failure of VAWA, the constant and continual attacks on women's reproductive rights, the pay and authoritative position inequities, the standard cultural use of prostituting women's bodies to sell products, just for starters, and the response is terms like 'damsel in distress'? What the fuck?

Good thing MRA's derailed their own movement by creeper redditt sites among other things or this would be much worse.

Thank God for men like my husband, and my male friends who do speak up and support women's rights without devolving into a whining session. It's easy for them to be passive because of male privilege, but light a fire under them and they don't respond with 'what about me'

Oh, and


http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/02/the-wot-is-feminism-chart/

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