HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Eve Ensler on the passivi...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:08 PM

Eve Ensler on the passivity of men

496 replies, 33180 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 496 replies Author Time Post
Reply Eve Ensler on the passivity of men (Original post)
babylonsister Feb 2013 OP
libtodeath Feb 2013 #1
freshwest Feb 2013 #2
seabeyond Feb 2013 #3
freshwest Feb 2013 #6
Fumesucker Feb 2013 #8
seabeyond Feb 2013 #10
Fumesucker Feb 2013 #14
seabeyond Feb 2013 #15
Fumesucker Feb 2013 #16
seabeyond Feb 2013 #17
uriel1972 Feb 2013 #19
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #223
seabeyond Feb 2013 #227
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #26
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #314
timdog44 Feb 2013 #12
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #22
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #194
BlueJazz Feb 2013 #4
marions ghost Feb 2013 #96
BlueJazz Feb 2013 #110
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #126
marions ghost Feb 2013 #305
seabeyond Feb 2013 #309
marions ghost Feb 2013 #311
seabeyond Feb 2013 #315
BlueJazz Feb 2013 #329
seabeyond Feb 2013 #354
marions ghost Feb 2013 #380
BlueJazz Feb 2013 #398
ancianita Feb 2013 #5
YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #7
seabeyond Feb 2013 #9
YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #62
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #69
bettyellen Feb 2013 #85
bettyellen Feb 2013 #433
smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #493
Bucky Feb 2013 #11
Bucky Feb 2013 #13
bettyellen Feb 2013 #28
redqueen Feb 2013 #117
Zorra Feb 2013 #288
Hosnon Feb 2013 #369
bettyellen Feb 2013 #373
Hosnon Feb 2013 #374
bettyellen Feb 2013 #377
justiceischeap Feb 2013 #414
bettyellen Feb 2013 #421
Kath1 Feb 2013 #18
Bonobo Feb 2013 #20
bettyellen Feb 2013 #33
seabeyond Feb 2013 #34
Bonobo Feb 2013 #35
seabeyond Feb 2013 #37
bettyellen Feb 2013 #38
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #71
bettyellen Feb 2013 #75
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #77
bettyellen Feb 2013 #94
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #346
bettyellen Feb 2013 #347
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #349
bettyellen Feb 2013 #378
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #402
bettyellen Feb 2013 #410
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #418
bettyellen Feb 2013 #419
BainsBane Feb 2013 #471
BainsBane Feb 2013 #413
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #416
BainsBane Feb 2013 #434
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #437
BainsBane Feb 2013 #449
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #453
BainsBane Feb 2013 #455
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #458
BainsBane Feb 2013 #460
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #461
BainsBane Feb 2013 #462
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #464
BainsBane Feb 2013 #465
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #467
BainsBane Feb 2013 #468
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #469
BainsBane Feb 2013 #472
BainsBane Feb 2013 #466
BainsBane Feb 2013 #415
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #417
BainsBane Feb 2013 #430
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #436
BainsBane Feb 2013 #450
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #454
BainsBane Feb 2013 #456
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #457
BainsBane Feb 2013 #459
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #463
BainsBane Feb 2013 #473
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #474
BainsBane Feb 2013 #478
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #476
BainsBane Feb 2013 #477
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #479
BainsBane Feb 2013 #480
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #481
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #173
seabeyond Feb 2013 #177
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #190
seabeyond Feb 2013 #204
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #213
seabeyond Feb 2013 #219
Bonobo Feb 2013 #229
seabeyond Feb 2013 #233
bettyellen Feb 2013 #247
Bonobo Feb 2013 #252
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #232
seabeyond Feb 2013 #234
Bonobo Feb 2013 #237
bettyellen Feb 2013 #254
Bonobo Feb 2013 #257
bettyellen Feb 2013 #355
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #243
seabeyond Feb 2013 #251
bettyellen Feb 2013 #422
smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #494
bettyellen Feb 2013 #182
RiffRandell Feb 2013 #411
Bonobo Feb 2013 #412
bettyellen Feb 2013 #431
Bonobo Feb 2013 #435
bettyellen Feb 2013 #438
Bonobo Feb 2013 #440
bettyellen Feb 2013 #441
Bonobo Feb 2013 #442
bettyellen Feb 2013 #444
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #447
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #451
bettyellen Feb 2013 #483
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #485
bettyellen Feb 2013 #486
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #487
bettyellen Feb 2013 #488
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #489
bettyellen Feb 2013 #490
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #491
bettyellen Feb 2013 #492
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #496
bettyellen Feb 2013 #482
bettyellen Feb 2013 #424
Threedifferentones Feb 2013 #423
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #425
bettyellen Feb 2013 #428
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #189
Bonobo Feb 2013 #193
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #202
Bonobo Feb 2013 #206
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #208
Bonobo Feb 2013 #215
bettyellen Feb 2013 #291
theKed Feb 2013 #21
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #23
seabeyond Feb 2013 #27
bettyellen Feb 2013 #30
redqueen Feb 2013 #118
seabeyond Feb 2013 #121
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #141
seabeyond Feb 2013 #144
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #136
redqueen Feb 2013 #245
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #249
redqueen Feb 2013 #261
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #275
redqueen Feb 2013 #282
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #293
redqueen Feb 2013 #296
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #303
redqueen Feb 2013 #307
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #365
redqueen Feb 2013 #376
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #379
GaYellowDawg Feb 2013 #333
redqueen Feb 2013 #335
GaYellowDawg Feb 2013 #339
redqueen Feb 2013 #345
hfojvt Feb 2013 #352
redqueen Feb 2013 #382
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #383
redqueen Feb 2013 #384
hfojvt Feb 2013 #439
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #367
sufrommich Feb 2013 #330
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #366
alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #196
redqueen Feb 2013 #248
Sirveri Feb 2013 #24
bettyellen Feb 2013 #29
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #31
bettyellen Feb 2013 #32
Sirveri Feb 2013 #66
CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #123
seabeyond Feb 2013 #145
CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #262
seabeyond Feb 2013 #269
CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #274
Gormy Cuss Feb 2013 #316
bettyellen Feb 2013 #124
Sirveri Feb 2013 #138
bettyellen Feb 2013 #165
WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #185
seabeyond Feb 2013 #197
bettyellen Feb 2013 #341
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #184
seabeyond Feb 2013 #212
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #230
seabeyond Feb 2013 #235
bettyellen Feb 2013 #343
Dash87 Feb 2013 #107
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #199
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #25
hfojvt Feb 2013 #36
bettyellen Feb 2013 #39
hfojvt Feb 2013 #41
bettyellen Feb 2013 #42
Bonobo Feb 2013 #45
bettyellen Feb 2013 #68
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #191
Bonobo Feb 2013 #198
seabeyond Feb 2013 #222
bettyellen Feb 2013 #371
hfojvt Feb 2013 #46
bettyellen Feb 2013 #73
WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #168
datasuspect Feb 2013 #280
bettyellen Feb 2013 #284
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #48
MicaelS Feb 2013 #65
bettyellen Feb 2013 #167
seabeyond Feb 2013 #178
bettyellen Feb 2013 #183
MellowDem Feb 2013 #115
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #224
seabeyond Feb 2013 #231
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #250
seabeyond Feb 2013 #255
bettyellen Feb 2013 #258
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #405
actslikeacarrot Feb 2013 #313
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #281
gollygee Feb 2013 #40
hfojvt Feb 2013 #43
seabeyond Feb 2013 #49
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #52
gollygee Feb 2013 #54
seabeyond Feb 2013 #55
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #56
seabeyond Feb 2013 #57
gollygee Feb 2013 #59
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #60
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #200
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #297
bettyellen Feb 2013 #359
bettyellen Feb 2013 #70
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #72
Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #74
noiretextatique Feb 2013 #80
redqueen Feb 2013 #119
bettyellen Feb 2013 #125
redqueen Feb 2013 #127
bettyellen Feb 2013 #130
redqueen Feb 2013 #132
seabeyond Feb 2013 #146
Bonobo Feb 2013 #149
seabeyond Feb 2013 #151
Bonobo Feb 2013 #152
seabeyond Feb 2013 #154
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #155
seabeyond Feb 2013 #160
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #164
seabeyond Feb 2013 #180
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #192
seabeyond Feb 2013 #226
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #241
Dash87 Feb 2013 #109
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #221
seabeyond Feb 2013 #238
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #292
seabeyond Feb 2013 #306
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #321
seabeyond Feb 2013 #322
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #323
seabeyond Feb 2013 #326
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #327
bettyellen Feb 2013 #338
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #342
bettyellen Feb 2013 #348
Hosnon Feb 2013 #372
bettyellen Feb 2013 #375
joeunderdog Feb 2013 #390
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #187
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #214
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #294
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #209
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #265
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #336
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #287
Hosnon Feb 2013 #370
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #78
gollygee Feb 2013 #82
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #86
gollygee Feb 2013 #91
bettyellen Feb 2013 #84
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #87
bettyellen Feb 2013 #89
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #90
gollygee Feb 2013 #92
seabeyond Feb 2013 #148
bettyellen Feb 2013 #172
seabeyond Feb 2013 #181
bettyellen Feb 2013 #93
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #97
bettyellen Feb 2013 #100
redqueen Feb 2013 #120
bettyellen Feb 2013 #122
redqueen Feb 2013 #129
Bonobo Feb 2013 #140
Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #134
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #452
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #207
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #216
redqueen Feb 2013 #279
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #337
redqueen Feb 2013 #276
WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #228
seabeyond Feb 2013 #147
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #153
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #81
gollygee Feb 2013 #83
raccoon Feb 2013 #157
smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #495
Bonobo Feb 2013 #44
seabeyond Feb 2013 #51
bettyellen Feb 2013 #88
Bonobo Feb 2013 #98
bettyellen Feb 2013 #105
Bonobo Feb 2013 #106
bettyellen Feb 2013 #128
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #225
seabeyond Feb 2013 #150
raccoon Feb 2013 #159
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #47
gollygee Feb 2013 #50
seabeyond Feb 2013 #53
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #58
seabeyond Feb 2013 #63
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #67
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #99
seabeyond Feb 2013 #102
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #104
seabeyond Feb 2013 #108
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #112
seabeyond Feb 2013 #113
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #135
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #61
gollygee Feb 2013 #95
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #101
gollygee Feb 2013 #143
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #286
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #404
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #264
LineLineLineReply .
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #290
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #64
bettyellen Feb 2013 #76
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #79
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #111
gollygee Feb 2013 #156
seabeyond Feb 2013 #161
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #169
seabeyond Feb 2013 #186
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #211
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #163
gollygee Feb 2013 #166
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #171
gollygee Feb 2013 #174
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #179
bettyellen Feb 2013 #210
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #217
bettyellen Feb 2013 #266
Laelth Feb 2013 #253
sufrommich Feb 2013 #332
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #158
still_one Feb 2013 #103
MellowDem Feb 2013 #114
seabeyond Feb 2013 #116
bettyellen Feb 2013 #131
MellowDem Feb 2013 #218
redqueen Feb 2013 #133
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #137
Bonobo Feb 2013 #139
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #240
Bonobo Feb 2013 #242
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #244
seabeyond Feb 2013 #260
Bonobo Feb 2013 #270
seabeyond Feb 2013 #272
Bonobo Feb 2013 #278
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #300
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #256
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #142
galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #162
bettyellen Feb 2013 #175
galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #188
bettyellen Feb 2013 #236
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #220
seabeyond Feb 2013 #176
galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #195
Bonobo Feb 2013 #203
bettyellen Feb 2013 #340
seabeyond Feb 2013 #246
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #239
WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #267
seabeyond Feb 2013 #271
galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #392
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #170
galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #201
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #205
RC Feb 2013 #259
seabeyond Feb 2013 #263
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #273
polly7 Feb 2013 #308
RC Feb 2013 #325
Sissyk Feb 2013 #360
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #324
RC Feb 2013 #331
raccoon Feb 2013 #350
JTFrog Feb 2013 #268
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #277
Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #285
Gormy Cuss Feb 2013 #381
seabeyond Feb 2013 #289
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #295
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #298
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #299
seabeyond Feb 2013 #310
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #318
seabeyond Feb 2013 #320
sufrommich Feb 2013 #334
Sissyk Feb 2013 #362
Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #283
redqueen Feb 2013 #302
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #301
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #319
redqueen Feb 2013 #328
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #344
bettyellen Feb 2013 #351
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #368
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #386
seabeyond Feb 2013 #387
redqueen Feb 2013 #389
seabeyond Feb 2013 #391
Agschmid Feb 2013 #394
redqueen Feb 2013 #400
Agschmid Feb 2013 #393
seabeyond Feb 2013 #395
Agschmid Feb 2013 #396
redqueen Feb 2013 #397
msanthrope Feb 2013 #401
MadrasT Feb 2013 #403
yardwork Feb 2013 #409
fishwax Feb 2013 #443
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #445
BainsBane Feb 2013 #399
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #406
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #446
BainsBane Feb 2013 #448
Solly Mack Feb 2013 #304
actslikeacarrot Feb 2013 #312
seabeyond Feb 2013 #317
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #353
bettyellen Feb 2013 #356
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #357
bettyellen Feb 2013 #358
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #361
bettyellen Feb 2013 #363
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #364
redqueen Feb 2013 #385
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #388
Delphinus Feb 2013 #407
Benton D Struckcheon Feb 2013 #408
bettyellen Feb 2013 #420
Benton D Struckcheon Feb 2013 #429
DirkGently Feb 2013 #426
seabeyond Feb 2013 #427
bettyellen Feb 2013 #432
YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #470
Evoman Feb 2013 #475
bettyellen Feb 2013 #484

Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:10 PM

1. Let me be the first to rec this

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)


Response to freshwest (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:25 PM

3. lol. i didnt wonder about men until i had two sons and learned

They did not have live with societal conditioned definition of manhood.

They taught me better and to have higher expectations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)


Response to freshwest (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:50 PM

8. Odd, I have a daughter and two granddaughters

And I still wonder about women.

I saw these two threads one above the other on GD the other day, I thought it was pretty ironic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:04 PM

10. all you have to do is look at societal conditioning and the difference we treat male and female

sexuality all their lives. it is easy enough to see.

males have societal, cultural, religious approval of their sexuality.

females have societal, cultural, religious disapproval of our sexuality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:25 PM

14. Our culture is awash to the gunwales with female sexuality and hypersexuality

And it's used to manipulate both men and women for profit and power.

Both sexes get wildly conflicting messages on what is appropriate behavior, it's really a wonder we aren't even more screwed up.








Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:28 PM

15. womens sexuality is only used to promote and give to, entertain and validate mens sexuality

everything about the womans sexuality is giving to men. it is never them owning their sexuality. and with men, it is never handing their sexuality to women. it is always.... taking. (i am not talking rape)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:40 PM

16. If a man shows one iota of vulnerability in our culture he's dead meat walking

Because someone is going to use that admission of vulnerability against him, it took me to damn near sixty to completely learn that lesson but I have it down now.

And men are on the average more emotionally fragile than women I think.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:44 PM

17. again, something we do not condition our boys with. then on the other hand,

we discuss all this stuff regularly so they have the tools of handling it. i agree with you absolutely.

my oldest GF broke up with him last weekend. was hell. the other morning he comes in at 5 am, wakes me up, and tells me he needs to talk. he gets to be vulnerable and emotional and cry.... with me. NO judging. no repressing. but, we all spent an hour and half in conversation and he was able to put it in a healthy perspective. and i check in with him daily and he discusses.

it sucks fume, making men repress emotion as if they do not have it.

having boys, and knowing from the youngest of age how stupid it is, it is not something we demanded of our boys.

yes, in society they have to present an image. but then, as a woman, i dont want to be that "emotional, weak, weepy" woman i am supposed to be either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:29 PM

19. I learned that lesson early on in high school.

Thirty years on I am trying to unlearn.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:59 AM

223. Took me to 40

And massive amounts of heart trauma. As another poster said, not going to be that white knight anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #223)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 AM

227. i have never asked for a "white knight". i do expect commen decency and that is not gender

specific. i expect it from myself as a woman and all women, just as much as i expect it from men.

that is all that is being discussed here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:30 AM

26. +1

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:26 PM

314. For that, you get another heart.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:09 PM

12. Odd you bring this up.

I saw a study the other day that stated that porn viewing on the internet is almost equally divided between men and women.
Not to OP point, but to yours.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to timdog44 (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:33 AM

22. I don't believe that for a sec. Even if a study says it. I'm over 50; I've pretty much got a handle

on who views porn more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to timdog44 (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

194. Don't worry the feminists

will show up to try to say you are wrong. But yes younger women are more open to pornography just like men. Times are changing but the feminist movement will remembered in the history books at this current pace.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:26 PM

4. Dear Eve: Don't assume that the majority of Men are not outraged by the action of rape...

...and many other atrocities (actions and verbally) rained-down upon Women.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:52 PM

96. Do they express that rage to other men

or only to women tho?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #96)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:05 PM

110. I've talked to men about what a lousy deal that women have had to endure..

...throughout the ages.
They pretty much agreed with my thinking on the subject .

Having said that...The men I know and have formed a relationship with (Friends) tend to be scientists and or jazz musicians with
an understanding or caring attitude regarding the world.

I'll admit..after thinking about it, I might just be seeing your subject through the proverbial Rose Colored Glasses.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:51 AM

126. I think men need to do more than actually discuss. They need to take action.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:51 AM

305. We have similar friends...

scientists, medical people, researchers, artists, musicians but also some small farmers and plant people --men with understanding and a caring attitude are the ONLY men I want to know. I'm lucky, as this also is the type of guy my dad, brothers, and in-law men are/were. So when I am thrown with the overtly sexist types, it's jarring. I always know where they're coming from, not a good place.

HOWEVER--re. Rose Colored Glasses--as sympathetic as all the good guys are --and if it weren't for yall the world would be a really terrible place --there is still a societal abuse of women that is not well understood or accepted. Maybe it's just that the degree to which women have to overcome obstacles on a daily basis, and the stress of that, is not recognised. Maybe that blindness comes from guilt, as what man has NEVER thought he was better off as a man (ie. felt sorry for women)? --and what woman has never thought that it's better to be a man? We live with the subtle unspoken fact that being a man has perks and privileges that being a woman does not. Women still are second-class citizens in this world--even as many are scrambling to change this, and the future does looks brighter. (The future looks brighter for men being able to break out of traditional male expectations also). But the sense of entitlement that even good men grow up with is very hard to change. As long as the general public thinks that having a boy is better than having a girl this will be so. And as long as Rethuglicon and Teabagger thinking finds widespread support...we are in danger of going back to to the real Dark Ages re women. Women are feeling this and fearing this. The gains feel very fragile.

So imagine if you can, what it is like to grow up knowing that you are going to have to fight the female "situation" your whole life, that you are less important in some eyes. To me the bottom line is that women (no matter how successful) often wish they were men, whereas men do not envy women. Whatever can be said to be women's positive values or traits are ridiculed or unappreciated. It is still true that the most successful women are those who can "act like a man."

One day---when men and women can break free of traditional roles and be who they are really are...individual composites of yin/yang (however you define the dichotomies)...that day is quite a ways off. But I can imagine it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #305)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:00 PM

309. what a very insightful and worth the read post...

i like very much. addressing it from a new angle.

thought provoking, lol. the best. a little more of the onion.

thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #309)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

311. thanks seabeyond

and I know you are doing your best to bring up your boys to recognize and reject sexism and other forms of exploitation. Nip it in the bud. I take heart from the attention to the issues and constant efforts of parents like you. You are creating a better world where it really counts, & deserve encouragement and support.
to you and parents reading this who are also working at this in a conscious way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #311)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

315. thank you. but the best? they get to shed the conditioning and stereotypes given to men,

provided by the patriarchy. it is freeing for them and that in and of itself is its own reward. which makes it all so very easy for our young boys that are made aware of the restrictions to both genders, and the damage and harm it cause both genders.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #305)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:08 PM

329. I believe your words are true and just but...

A part of me also believes that you underestimate the fact that some people are able to put themselves in somebody else's shoes through some of their own personal experiences. Not necessarily 100% but enough to know an applicable amount of fear and frustration and torment on a daily basis...and therefore what women experience.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #329)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:46 PM

354. i think it is a possibility if a man really wants to see. absolutely. i think even more so

if he asks questions to better understand. sheeesh, my 13 yr old son (a few years back) recognized a man was being awfully sexist in a conversation. talking down and condescending to me having to do with my car. i didnt pay much attention cause i just went over him to the boss and told him what i wanted. but a little later my son said something to me. i was thrilled he was able to recognize without any nudges from me.

so, yes.

but, i think that ghost is saying is there is a natural instinct within us that does not want to see.

i love this cartoon.

hey, and it is with both genders. until i could see, i couldnt see so much, only some.






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #329)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

380. Yes, they/you are out there--and the more

both men and women are exploited by ruthless corporate interests, maybe that understanding will spread.

I do think that some smarter, more perceptive men are sympathetic, but it is only human to feel the "thank god, at least I'm not a woman..." type of empathy, when you yourself are under stress. The corporates who control us love to keep us all in fear and frustration, & divided. We are all stressed more than we should be. Hard to feel generous and positive, in these uncertain times.

So--how do you see the "rose-colored glasses" you refer to?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #380)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:53 PM

398. I tend to hang around with good people...those that it's hard to say an unkind word about or..

...are reluctant to say an unkind word (just about) anybody else.

I'd like to see the world as it really is but the thought actually unnerves me.
As it is, I'm just crawling through reality...trying not to step on anybody's dreams.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:30 PM

5. I totally agree with her, but I'm not impressed by her 'awareness' raising methods, which seem

pretty and passive themselves. Dance videos? Sorry.

Nice try with her videos but they do a pretty electric slide by solutions, and even make women look as if they needn't be taken seriously. I'd venture that Eve Ensler makes the male power structure chuckle -- and dominance-driven laugh -- with her feel-good non-solutions. If these videos have even entered their radar.

I would offer that Andrea Dworkin had better explanations about the passivity of men and offered better solutions than pointing and dance videos. Andrea Dworkin showed how passive men are complicit in maintaining the male social, religious and economic power structure that invisibly keeps women struggling and suffering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:44 PM

7. I don't think it's really about "good men" vs "bad men"....

I think, rather, that the issue here is how sexism and misogyny are so institutionalized and so embedded in society, that the ideology of said sexism and misogyny is pervasive.

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my damnedest to try to be aware, understand, empathize, and bridge the gaps of experience and social class. Ignorance or apathy is no excuse for bigotry.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:01 PM

9. but even better, you can completely see it from a mans view and i think

what the woman is saying that as a man, you can speak for and to men, and be all over it from a mans perspective.

so when men are sexist and misogynist, you know as a man that that is not a biological action, innate of men, and as a man can speak out to men.

i have always felt that i have a responsibility to speak to the wrongs of women, to women, because i am a part of that group. i will be heard most because i am a part of that group.

just as i feel americans should stand up to americans. christians should stand up to christians. men need to stand up to men when their behavior is sexist and it not be acceptable.

nothing makes me feel better than to hear my husband say something out loud, for my boys to pick up, that is supportive of women. that is so much more effective than my voice. simply because he is a man, and understands the life of man.

thanks for your post. you made me think thru it a little more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:41 AM

62. Likewise, thanks for your post.

Us men do have a responsibility to stand up to other men, I agree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

69. And yet...

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

... you write in support of a post in which a woman tells you what men think.

If you "know in your heart that you will never completely see things from a woman's perspective", then why treat the OP as useful and productive? Do you believe that women are capable of knowing what you think to such a degree that she's qualified to explain those thoughts to you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:52 PM

85. It's asking men to have empathy and solidarity....

And you're characterizing that as somehow a bad thing? How is it unreasonable? (Without making it about you or the plight of men) how is that a bad or unreasonable thing?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:49 PM

433. *crickets*

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:54 PM

493. Thank you for trying to understand.

It is much appreciated.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:05 PM

11. On what basis is she assuming men aren't angry about rape and humiliation of women?

Excuse me... "good men". Obviously the bad men don't believe buy into idiotic sweeping generalizations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bucky (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:10 PM

13. Ironic sidenote: I'm a bad man and a horrid human being and I'm *still* anti-rape

Maybe if Ms Ensler directed her anger at Republican congressmen who make casual dismissals of the horrors of sexual assault, she'd do the cause more good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bucky (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:32 AM

28. On the basis that they get all dismissive, pissy and make it

As if its all about them personally.
Call it derailing, or gaslighting but a common reaction of good men is to take offense and of quibble instead of considering that there's a lot of truth to what women are trying to tell you.
Instead of supporting or listening to women, we had a whole lot of threads from men about how THEY are good guys, and only sociopaths rape, so it's inevitable. You know, the nice guy way of telling us to STFU about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:13 AM

117. +10000000000000000000000000000000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:11 AM

288. Well said. Many posts in this thread perfectly illustrate the factuality of your post. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:27 PM

369. If someone doesn't want good men to start from a defensive stance, then

they shouldn't implicitly accuse them of being passive about rape.

Doing so can justifiably be perceived as aggressive/accusatory, which is not very effective when trying to explain something or win allies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hosnon (Reply #369)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:40 PM

373. When they completely refuse to discuss the topic....

Whether its because they want to split hairs or go on about some random woman not being nice to them.... It starts to be all about them. And it's not about an individual man ...never was. This word game gets played out after the first 30 or so times.
Commonly, they don't want a honest discussion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #373)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:43 PM

374. They probably refuse to discuss the topic because it began with an implicit attack.

This seems like a good lesson in how to start a conversation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hosnon (Reply #374)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:46 PM

377. So they come only to derail it. Trolling, basically.

True for some, no doubt!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hosnon (Reply #374)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:09 PM

414. It's only an attack if you're guilty of what someone is talking about

Otherwise, it's a statement to start a discussion. Why so defensive?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to justiceischeap (Reply #414)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:48 PM

421. True- quite a few of the men here have explained their non support due to bitterness....

Rejection by random individual females is a big excuse. Also angry some women support the patriarchy, and some don't.
And some women were snippy!

So, yeah the OP is an attack on them. A well deserved one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:24 PM

18. I love Eve Ensler and I think she is making a valid point.

If you haven't seen The Vagina Monologues yet, do yourself a favor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:32 PM

20. Men as protectors...

All in all, I think men have taken the bulk of responsibility for protecting family and country.

Think about how many have been beaten, mutilated and killed in doing so. Millions.

Now ask again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:01 AM

33. Historically, most men protected only what they perceive as their own....

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:09 PM - Edit history (1)

And for many- it continues today. They are not just doing this out of the good of their hearts, its purely selfish behaviour. It's on this thread.

If they stopped looking at everything (including women) as something to be taken, it would go a long way to change things.

Edited to clarify- we were talking about men "have always protected" home and country, as if its a good and pure thing. Sorry- it ain't selfless when you profit, and the majority of men have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:08 AM

34. i am thinking rape as a tool in war. the other side "protecting" while raping and vice versa.

the post kinda didnt work.

want to talk about men in the past being the ones putting their life out there, fine. (now a days it is both gender that puts life out there)

but, the point of the post really did not work.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:08 AM

35. Gotcha. We're evil. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:11 AM

37. really? that is how you reduce the conversation. dont buy what you say,

and that is what you reduce it to?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:21 AM

38. Come on now, you can't whine about how hard you all have it...

And refuse to examine how you all got yourselves into that position in the first place. That's complete bullshit.
No one said you're evil- but it appears you're unable to have an honest conversation about it.
It appears whining and licking your wounds is the only thing you have to offer.
That's how you derail. Fuck that, were sick of the whining.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

71. Make up your mind.

Either smear us because we stand around passively allowing you to fight your own battles, or because, "driven through madness into action" we chivalrously ride to the rescue of helpless lady fair.

...but stop trying to have it both ways.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:12 PM

75. There's a middle road. But you need to respect and care about women

(Women in general)in order to even find it.
Seems like the guys here prefer not to even consider that there might be a better way. Because stewing in resentment is more fun?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:36 PM

77. The middle of the road is paved with squashed skunks.

We as citizens must do everything practically possible to prevent criminals (men or women) from victimizing (men or women).

In a society based on equality, neither men nor women are relegated to a more prominent place among the population of victims or offenders.

All forms of violence and victimization must be reduced even further. As noted downthread, the rape incidence today is one-fifth what it was when I was a teen, and it is appropriate to applaud that success while setting up the conditions to make even more improvement in the future.

Collective guilt doesn't help, it harms.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:44 PM

94. You're smarter than this B&W either/ or mindset...

You don't fool me.
And your stats are way skewed. Like it or not, men are much more prone to serious physical violence. I don't know why you'd bother trying to imply otherwise.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #94)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:28 PM

346. Men are also more prone to be *victims* of serious physical violence.

While Ms Ensler thinks "good men" are too passive to prevent violence against women, it seems to me that this is better than pretending it isn't happening.

When a man beats a woman, it's a crime. When a man beats a man, it's a fight. When a woman beats a man it's "you go girl".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:30 PM

347. Yes! Why don't men stop hurting everyone?

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:54 PM - Edit history (1)

It's an epidemic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #347)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:34 PM

349. It's a fixable problem.

Although all forms of violent crime are down, rape has declined 85% since 1980.

It's appropriate to spread that awareness, attention and focus to the bigger picture of violent victimization.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #349)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:47 PM

378. One in three or four is seriously fucked up.... Which is why we're

Basically asking men to ALSO deal with it productively.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #378)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:17 PM

402. According to the DOJ, .84 people per thousand (aged 12 and over) are raped each year.

If only women and girls answered the questioner in the affirmative, then this roughly equates to one 1.7 women per thousand per year (.17%). If the average woman lives 60 years in adulthood, her lifetime risk is about 10%.

In 1980, the victimization rate was 2.4 people per year, (or .48% of women). If 1980 rates had remained stable, that is a lifetime risk of about 29%.

Here's something to consider. Feminist theory says that men run this society and are responsible (via "the rape culture") for the crimes perpetrated by other men (that is in fact the basis of the OP).

If that is true, then men ARE dealing with the crime of rape "productively" by having reduced your risk by 85%

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #402)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:48 PM

410. And 99% of the rapists are men.... So kind of premature to

pat yourself on the back. Men own 99% of this problem. Instead of having an honest discussion, they complain about women not being nice enough to them. You start to get the sense they feel women have this coming to them.

At any rate, that study departs so radically from every other study ever made (and leaving out under 12 year olds is just horrible) that it is just not credible. But i won't get sidetracked by attempts to imply its not a serious issue anymore. Not having that discussion with you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #410)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:32 PM

418. Define "serious issue".

A 10% lifetime risk constitutes a serious issue. It's unnecessary and counterproductive to invent statistics for the purpose of denigrating the progress we've made as a society.

The DOJ isn't "just another study". They are the official numbers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #418)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:34 PM

419. Not doing it, sorry.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #402)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 PM

471. it might help

if you actually read some feminist theory before mis-characterizing it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:06 PM

413. that is ludicrous

Women commit far fewer violent crimes than men, and they are prosecuted for domestic violence. I'm sorry your life is miserable and that you despise women, but lying doesn't help your case at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #413)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:27 PM

416. Strong words. Weak evidence. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #416)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:03 PM

434. I provided evidence

and your hatred of women is evident whenever you post. It's sad really. It's like working class whites blaming unions for their poverty. It's completely nonsensical.
Look at rape stats. 99% of perpetrators are male, and 91% of victims are female. You would blame women for those 9% of rapes committed against men. Blaming women for crimes clearly perpetrated by men makes no sense.

Why must you think of yourself as victim? If you developed a more positive outlook, you would do a lot better. Going around blaming women for your problems in life is absurd. So a woman dumped you. That doesn't make women responsible for all the evil on earth. We all get dumped. That's part of life. I was married to a physically abusive husband. If I nursed the amount of hostility toward men that you do toward women, It would only make me miserable. 25% of women in this country are raped. They eventually recover, and many go on to marry and sustain other loving relationships. The reason to let go of resentment is because you are the one who suffers most. Whatever woman wronged you doesn't feel your anger. Only you feel it. One becomes prisoner of his own resentment. It poisons life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #434)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:37 PM

437. "Nursing hostility? Nope. I married once and well.

But then again, I'm not the one psychoanalyzing you.

And an ad-hominem is not "evidence". The dictionary is your friend. Look up "projection" while you're in there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #437)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:43 PM

449. well, I was trying to understand your issues

with women. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you had some personal hurt that prompted your resentment Obviously I was mistaken. Your misogyny is a committed philosophical choice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #449)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:37 PM

453. Back up a step.

You can understand my issues with women by understanding that I don't have any.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #453)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

455. some things are obvious, Jack

That you hate women is one of the them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #455)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:47 PM

458. Obvious?

Your ability to argue a point is tragically and irredeemably compromised.

That's what "obvious" means.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #458)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:56 PM

460. tell you what

take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #460)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:59 PM

461. Could you recommend a few? n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #461)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:59 PM

462. where do you live?

Oh, you thought I might bear some shame from having gone to a shrink? Nope. None. No more than anyone should be ashamed for going to an MD.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #462)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:01 PM

464. If I had my preferred MD's sorted by geography

It might be reasonable to question my general state of physical health.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #464)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:03 PM

465. wow, your responses to straight forward questions

aren't any more understandable. I give up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #465)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:05 PM

467. Run away or I shall taunt you some more. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #467)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:07 PM

468. you underestimate me

Your taunts merely reflect your own character. You can't effect how I feel about myself. You don't have that kind of power.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #468)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:09 PM

469. Hurt feelings

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

It's what you get after the third time you call someone a woman-hating misogynist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #469)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:03 PM

472. there is an easy solution

Don't express your views in public. Or if you must, own them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #464)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:05 PM

466. Oh, I get it now

another swipe at my mental health. Classy, Jack.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #346)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:21 PM

415. actual crime stats

Within the US, women are men are close in rates of victimization of violent crimes:

Table 2. All personal crimes men 2,693,460 21.9 women 2,299,760 17.8

Perpetrators of violent crimes are overwhelmingly male. It's not even close.

Table 38 Single offenders:
Crimes of violence 3,652,340 100 % 77.6 19.0 3.4 (sex of offender)
Table 44 multiple-offenders:
Crimes of violence 946,580 100 % 63.0 9.2 19.6 8.2 (sex of offender)


http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2218

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #415)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:28 PM

417. So, by "lie" you mean "truth". Apology accepted.

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

FWIW, you still don't have it right.

The victimization rate for violent crime against men is 25.4%, among women it is 19.8%. That's nearly a 30% difference.

In fact, the men's victimization rate rose 27% last year.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #417)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:43 PM

430. and men are the perpetrators

You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #430)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:34 PM

436. No. I blame criminals for violence against men and women.

Collective guilt much?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #436)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:44 PM

450. exactly

collective guilt is what you impose on all women.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #450)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:39 PM

454. I get the logic.

"I was married to an abusive man, so men should be punished".

It's your leap from "man" to "men" that I have a problem with. It's the definition of stereotype.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #454)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

456. where did I say men should be punished?

Provide one example. Go on. Given your assertion they should be easy to locate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #456)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:42 PM

457. The repetitive, redundant omnipresent observation that most criminals are men depends on the premise

Otherwise it is completely irrelevant.

Women need protection!
-Most violent crime victims are men.
Liar. Victimizers are usually men.
-"A" has no relevance to "B". Besides, a) is true and here is the proof.

If you're not saying that men should be punished, or deserve lesser consideration when victimized, your trademark phrase is a complete non-sequitur.

But it isn't a non-sequitur. You are clearly saying that men who are the victims of crime don't merit equal treatment... because they are men, like the perpetrator.

It's the same logic that gives racists the excuse to ignore inner city crime.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/11/black-crime-who-cares

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #457)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:55 PM

459. actally I provided statistical evidence

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

to counter your male victimization whine. You insisted that men were victims of crimes and women were perpetrators. I believe all criminals should receive a trail and be punished if found guilty. I do not--and never have--make exceptions based on sex. In fact, I have consistently argue that female statutory rapists be treated every bit as severely as male ones because the crimes are identical.

Your very argument equates maleness with criminality, while I made no such point. I merely pointed to statistics that show that men commit the vast majority of violent crimes because you insisted men were disproportionately victims, clearly a false assertion. Evidently you despise information so much that being presented with it is--for you--evidence of misandry.

You need to provide quotes where I make any of the absolutely absurd accusations you make. I NO Where said male victims of crime don't merit equal treatment.

I live in the inner city. I've spent all day defending Dorner's victims, many of whom are male police officers. You have no evidence for such accusations. Your responses are not rational.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #459)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:00 PM

463. I didn't say that.

Maybe it was the voices.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #463)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:07 PM

473. You still have no evidence

to support your allegations against me. And, one has to wonder, why you find the mere citation of crime stats so objectionable? You claim that by simply providing that information and nothing more I insisted that "all men be punished,' as though all men were criminals. Nor have you explained why you insist on blaming women for the fact that more men are crime victims, when statistically evidence shows that the overwhelming number of perpetrators are men.

Moreover, you appear to have no ability to defend your outrageous allegations and instead result to juvenile insults.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #473)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:02 AM

474. Let's clear something up.

I don't think, and have never said, that women are to blame for the fact that most violent crime victims are men.

...Not that I really expect you to stop saying it anyway. At some point, the internal dialog becomes reality.

However, I do blame you (and those who think like you) that their victimization is acceptable because they are men.

Nor have you explained why you insist on blaming women for the fact that more men are crime victims, when statistically evidence shows that the overwhelming number of perpetrators are men.


a) I don't. See above.
b) We're making some progress. Now you're telling me "the facts" that just yesterday you called me a liar about.
c) Is a man mugged/assaulted/murdered by another man less of a victim?

Any answer to "C" other than "No." (including "No, but...") are proof of my theory.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #474)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:30 PM

478. find one example

One, where I claim "victimization is acceptable because they are men." That exists ony in your head, no where else. If you think otherwise, PROVE IT.


You claim the mere fact of citing crime stats indicates I think male victims of crime don't matter. If that were true, you have a massive lawsuit against DOJ, since they actually publish reams of crime stats. You hate facts because it contradicts your sad little persecution complex that all women are out to get you.

You've sad you have no personal experiences that indicate women are you enemies, so what causes you to hate us so? What makes you think you are threatened by competition from women who earn 77 cents for every dollar a man does?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #473)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:39 AM

476. Juvenile insults like "take your posts to a shrink" or "That is delusional"?

I don't think you should be casting stones about juvenile insults.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #476)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:19 PM

477. you clearly misunderstood

1) his points are misogynist. That is hardly disputable. He refuses to see the obvious. So a psychological professional, I suggested, could evaluate them, not that he should consult a shrink for his mental health. As I made it quite clear, I see no shame is seeking psychological care, so how would that be an insult on my part?

2) are you really claiming his posts are rational?

3) I deleted the reference to delusional. Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members is not only unethical, it violates community standards. You are hardly in a position to pass judgement.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #477)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:18 PM

479. What does "Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members" mean?

If you've seen the results of the jury on which I sat, it's clear I just said what I've said now.

At Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:02 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I didn't say that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370759

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Insulting someone for being mentally ill is a clear violation of community standards and TOS.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:35 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: BainsBane has, in this thread, said lumberjack_jeff was lying, needed to see a psychiatrist, and is delusional. Those posts have stood for hours. And yet, when lumberjack_jeff replies in kind with 'voices', the alert turns up within 3 minutes. With no evidence that the alerter has been trying to get BainsBane's posts removed too, I'm going to say that, since BainsBane is clearly fine with insulting someone for being mentally ill, there's no harm in this post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Constant alerter whining and the resulting censorship and chilled atmosphere for people to speak their minds freely make DU suck. LEAVE IT.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, I don't see the insult.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nope. Not going for it. BainsBain initiated that slander in this thread and the supposition of untrue facts, along with positing an argument to LJ that LJ did not make so that she could slander him for that argument. BainsBain sowed this and is reaping it now.

Not locking LJ out of this thread...wish I could send BainsBain and bettyellen to the doghouse though for making me read this, it's so logically-disjointed they broke the back of their own argumentation 25 posts ago. If you don't want to face insinuations that you're crazy, don't post crazy-talk.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This thread is filled with anger and accusations flying back and forth. The poster whose post was alerted upon appears to be goaded into making a verbal mistake. I think everyone involved should attend group therapy together. (BTW, I'm female.)

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


I was juror #2. I insulted nobody - neither the alerter, nor you (though it now seems more likely that it actually was you alerting).

You regard lj as misogynist. He doesn't agree. That does not mean he should see a shrink. You have reaped what you sowed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #479)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:39 PM

480. You used that experience as a juror

to attack me in this thread. Serving as a juror is a trust, not a vehicle for you to then use to attack members. The reference you refer to had been deleted a good 12 hours before your post in this thread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #480)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:37 PM

481. At least you accept I have not insulted you in any way.

I was pointing out your hypocrisy. And, no, what I pointed out has not yet been deleted from this thread:

430. and men are the perpetrators

You blame women for violence against men. That is delusional.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2363369


460. tell you what

take your posts to a shrink and ask him. See what he says.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370728


What you did edit out, after the alert result, in which I pointed out your use of accusations of mental illness, was post #459: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2370723 , from which you removed "That is entirely a function of your own paranoid misogyny", six minutes after the jury results were returned. So there was actually one more use by you of a mental illness term, against lumberjack_jeff, which seems to have been on your conscience. You then removed it, and proceeded to accuse l_j of 'juvenile insults', despite your own insults of him, and after the alert had been turned down 5-1.

There is nothing wrong with posting in a thread after serving on a jury for it. Many people do this, especially when they see an alert which they think is unjustified, and they think the alert and the claims behind it need to be seen in the open. When I saw you had accused l_j of 'juvenile insults' after you had been told, in the alert result, that you had done it first, I thought this needed to been seen by DU in general.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:11 AM

173. This is the best response in this thread

The feminist movement is starting to paint itself in the corner with such conflicting messages. No wonder the younger generation looks down on it with so much disdain.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:20 AM

177. actually, there is a rebirth to the feminist movement with our young of both genders. so your

conclusion is incorrect.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #177)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:39 AM

190. There is no re-birth and only delusional Feminists believe

this to be the case. Anti woman legislation is growing stronger in response to the dying feminist movement. To stop the growing anti woman legislation it will take more than shaming of men.

More and more younger men are choosing not to marry young, because of soaring divorce rates led by women. Instead they are choosing to puruse hobbies (gaming, lifting) or careers. Woman now have more independence, but they can't ask for the white knight to show up anymore because he isn't coming.

Can't have it both ways, and no there isn't a middle ground, because if you straddle that fence long enough it's going to hurt.

A woman telling what men should be thinking and feeling is equally as bad as men telling how a woman should deal with rape.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #190)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:48 AM

204. like there is any expectation of you being knowledge about the subject, having invested a single

moment of your time on womans issues.

ya, totally ignore the point on ALL the angry men that have supposedly checked out.

read the posters on du that are angriest toward women... they are men looking for love and cant find it. and are angry cause they cant. sad. but there to see.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #204)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:52 AM

213. Angry men have checked out and so have the passive men

Women are adults, so either act like an adult, or you can go back to being called a girl that needs a helicopter parent hovering you to protect you 24/7. BTW I thought Beyonce was hot during her Super Bowl performance. You mad?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #213)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:56 AM

219. your post is beyond silly.... find that harmony dude, feels good, truly. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #219)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 AM

229. Dude = passive aggressive attack like saying "chick" or "babe".

And you know it and use it like a baby weapon. Anger all over the place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #229)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:05 AM

233. no, it does not. dude/dudette. in your movies. hey dude.... calif time.

but, ya, i get that you want a level playing field on this sexist argument and go to great lengths to create.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #229)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:20 AM

247. Dude is a friendly term. Mock outrage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #247)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:25 AM

252. Would these be examples of how you use it in a "friendly way"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125515598

An OP entitled "If Consent Was Really That Hard, Whiny Dudes Would Fail At Every Aspect of Life"

Doesn't sound all that friendly.

How about this one: "Yo, dudes: Alpha males are a myth, according to actual experts on wolves "

or this one: "A Bunch Of Sad, Insecure Dudes Attacked A Woman And Everyone Got What They Deserved"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #219)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:04 AM

232. As a passive male I refuse to help

Call me a pascifist, passive, or weak male all you want. But I am already attacked on a daily basis for being kind to animals by men and women, or showing empathy for someone hurt. I don't need feminists to be piling on as well. Thanks for showing what an "empathetic" human being you are, and how "beautiful" you are as well.

May your infamy live forever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #232)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:06 AM

234. dont want your help. really. if you do not have it in you, who the fuck cares. BUT... do not

even suggest that you are about merely being passive. you are the problem. you cannot be the solution.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #234)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:08 AM

237. We don't need an invitation to help.

Many of us have pointed out in this thread that we DO help.

What we are wondering is why someone started an OP that says that men are passive and not helping.

It seems clearly counterproductive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #237)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:26 AM

254. Because we have seen and heard men being passive and not helping?

Are you implying women are making this up- just to make you feel bad? Kind of paranoid, no? And hella insulting towards women.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #254)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:28 AM

257. Let's try a test.

A. The Passivity of Men
B. Why are some men passive?

A. The Cowardice of Men
B. Why are some men cowardly?

Are you, Betty, able to tell how the difference in grammar makes a dramatic difference in how those statements read?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #257)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:46 PM

355. The OP states she's over "the passivity" of men

Not men, not passive men.
You know what I'm over? This parsing bullshit.
You might not know what a dude is if you aren't an American, but you and too many men here are deliberately misquoting the OP. and then try and split hairs.
Won't participate in attempts to derail. Have at the false outrage all you want. It's crap, and only the angry (at women) young men here buy that BS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #234)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:16 AM

243. Yes passive men are the problem, so are the aggressive men

and then those men that are passive/aggressive with massive mood swings are not mentally stable. But then they are part of the problem too? So what men are left? Thanks for showing your true colors though!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #243)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:24 AM

251. we are not talking about you. again, no expectation. we are talking about the men that get it,

that are on this thread, that address men like you. lol

what a fuckin' hoot.

no one expects a single thing out of you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #232)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:58 PM

422. Infamy? WTF. funnier than dragging Beyonce into this. LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #213)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:00 PM

494. God, you are so juvenile.

Are you living in your mom's basement?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:27 AM

182. It's absurdly reductionist. Anyone who can't see any choice but

To be the dominant / protector or the silent enabler has an extremely limited view of their own capabilities. Shockingly regressive nonsense, sad to see this in DU.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:00 PM

411. What a disgusting and untrue statement.

My husband will help people regardless of gender, race, age.

I do the same, and your post should be alerted on becuse it is beyond sexist. Look in the mirror. I am so appalled at what you wrote----I have to say you really give my gender (female) a bad name with posts like this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RiffRandell (Reply #411)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:05 PM

412. I really appreciate your post.

It is all too easy to forget that the people speaking out here are about three women in total and there opinion is clearly not representative or, after 411 posts, we would see the rest of the DU female community come out and support their man-bashing.

Instead, they have been left out to dry by the people they claim to speak for.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #412)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:44 PM

431. Says the man who posits we should be grateful for ....

Men protecting us from other men.
Jeeze, thanks dudes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #431)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:03 PM

435. Hmmm, lemme check...

Nope, never said that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #435)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 PM

438. Sure you did- got very upset I wasn't grateful for men's

Historical role as protector and defender of their nation. And instead pointed out these were not selfless acts. You were irate.

You whined about it for several more posts scattered through out the thread. All that obsessing about the issue and it never occurred to you that we shouldn't be grateful because this "protecting" crap is basically a turf war caused by and perpetuated by men?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #438)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:40 AM

440. Even one quote showing that would be nice.

Happy to see that you are still using the word "whine". Very grownup, Betty.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #440)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:49 AM

441. The men who school us on tone have a problem accepting how whiney they come off.

And can't find their own posts about how we should appreciate how men bleed and die for us lovely damsels. Even though you refer to my response three more times, you've forgotten it all now.

You're sad that the violence and agression of men is not roundly celebrated on a progressive web site. I can't even wrap my head around that expectation. Good luck with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #441)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:55 AM

442. Congrats! You have taken wackiness to a whole new level.

You are living inside a world of your own making.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #442)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:28 AM

444. And you are stuck clinging to the notion that

Men's tendency towards "protection" and the violence and war that comes with it is somehow a good thing. Sorry you're stuck in the last century.
You can deny all you'd like. It's here. I'm not going to fetch it for you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #444)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:27 AM

447. So then you're saying that Ms Hensler's advice should be ignored.

She (and those for whom she speaks) doesn't need our protection because doing so would only be an expression of our warlike ownership of her.

I kid. I know the answer. Men should be punished for proprietarily protecting and defending in response to Ms Hensler's plea, AND punished for passively ignoring them.

In other words, there's no way to do the right thing, which makes it impossible to take you seriously. If you're simply driven by antipathy toward men, there's no point listening.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #447)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:37 PM

451. Damned if you do, damed if you don't...

There is an echo of these threads, going back over 40 yrs. (the time when modern women's rights took to the streets). There was a time in modern feminism when men were told to shut the fuck up when it came to group decision-making, in favor of "concensus-building." A time when men were told to quit characterizing/analyzing women, in favor of self-determination (though women had no problem returning the favor, out of equity I suppose). A time when men were told they may hold up the end of the ladder, but to stay out of the contractor's trailer.

Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.

And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:

"See? You are the problem."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #451)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:41 PM

483. all the talk about failed relationships and anger at random women is "reasonable discussion"?

On what planet? You have to be joking.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #483)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:10 AM

485. That "talk" is your's or someone else's, not mine. Miss-post?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #485)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:51 PM

486. no, I was replying to your claim that men who lack the capability for empathy and support are

trying to have a reasonable discussion. In most cases, in this very thread, it comes down to the random grievances against individual women leaving them embittered.
Not reasonable or productive discussion. More like bald faced disruption.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #486)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 03:02 PM

487. You still don't make sense. I made no claims of the nature you describe or conjure.

You might clarify your composition. Who and what is "disruptive?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #487)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 03:10 PM

488. could you clarify this about what "new narrative" might be- if not asking for support and empathy...

(which sounds damned reasonable to me) and let me know where all that "reasonable discussion" you see here that is met with anger and blame? Those are clearly your claims, are they not? Just trying to find the attacks on all those 'reasonable men".



'Many men did step aside in favor of some kind of passivity. Now, the game is different, and men are expected to pose while a new suit of armor is fitted.

And any "reasonable discussion" that doesn't follow the new narrative is met with rather standard pigeon-holeing responses that boil down to:

"See? You are the problem."'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #488)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 05:17 PM

489. Men are now expected to take an activist role when once they were expected to remain in the b.g.

Good enough for a "good man?"

You should take ownership of your long-stale attitudes toward men. Fortunately, it seems most women (including those on D.U.) don't cotton to your views of men, either.

Take note: I have fought for women's rights for a long time, and will continue to do so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #489)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:15 AM

490. if having common decency is "being an activist" (huh?) is way too much for ask then the good man

ain't as good as he thinks. There's nothing stale about asking people to live their values.

There is no "new suit of armor" or "white knighting" involved at all. No damsels in distress, LOL. Those are the fevered imaginings of of MRA. Their new talking points. Truly embarrassing stuff to read here.

Trust me, you have no idea how most women on DU feel. You know how five or six men who disrupt every thread they can find on the topic of feminism feel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #490)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:51 AM

491. I've always believed if your values are strong enough...

they will survive the petty and petulant natterings of those nominally one your side, whose main goals are moral condemnation and superior self-exaltation at the drop of a hat. Keep your peculiar acronyms and electro-smirks to yourself. The battle for equal rights and self-determination of all peoples is more important to me than some shrill finger-pointing. Perhaps on the "front lines" somewhere we'll meet (for real) and gain a more positive appraisal of each other.

Would you like a Farenthold for Governor t-shirt?
It is quite old and no linger fits. Provide a "safe" land address and it is your's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #491)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:05 AM

492. Shrill, LOL. Smirks? You have quite the thin skin, and fevered imagination... but I knew that after

seeing your vaguely hostile "natterings"

When you're next on the "front lines" please do share your complaints about about being fitted for new armor with my sisters. I can assure you the finger pointing will be accompanied by nothing more than robust guffaws. And you probably thought we were humorless!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #492)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:20 PM

496. Guffaws not withstanding, do you want the T?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #447)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:39 PM

482. as I said before, empathy and support. your post is complete gibberish that has nothing to do with

anything at all that has been said here. It's MRA filth that doensn't even address the issue in the OP.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RiffRandell (Reply #411)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:03 PM

424. I should have prefaced this with historically ....

And that's the origins of why men protected homes and nation- because there were direct benefits to them by doing so.
since I was responding to someone who was talking about "men have always" protected- I thought it would be clearer. Because we were their property not long ago.
I should fix it. Thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:01 PM

423. I don't disagree bettyellen but life is more complicated.

I agree that a lot of the justifications for violence and war falsely claim killing to be about protection instead of ownership and dominance. But I think it is worth pointing out that a person who cannot engage in these monstrous behaviors themselves to any degree is more likely to be a victim. There is some truth to the idea that sometimes violence is necessary to protect you and yours.

I think taken to its logical extreme your post implies that fathers and mothers don't fight to the death for their kids because of the same emotions. A woman selflessly nurtures her children, while a man selfishly possesses them. This may be true for the gender roles of many patriarchal traditions, but I do not think it is naturally the case.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Threedifferentones (Reply #423)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:04 PM

425. It's not "more complicated", it's much simpler.

Men and women love their mates and their families and want to nurture and protect them. Period.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Threedifferentones (Reply #423)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:40 PM

428. I agree.. It was a sloppy post but in essence the roots of what he asks

We celebrate - that we thank men for are horribly tainted. And taking on the "role as protector" is actually a huge problem men cause themselves.
If they weren't what most often might need protecting from... then there might be something laudable about the whole thing.
Sadly- men have put themselves in the position of being both the sickness and the cure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:39 AM

189. I read an article by a feminist suggesting the same thing

That men are not equally treated either, certainly in ways different than a woman but societal expectations of men remaining largely unchallenged and unchanged. I had always thought that was my role, noone showedme otherwise andmy father was the same way, be strong, protect and serve. Has it gained me anything outside of what any man can expect? No. In fact I'm tired of it. It has proven worthless in relationships as I heal the wounded and protect the fragile only too see them leave without so much of a thank you when they have mended and found greener pasture. Yes, that part was a rant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #189)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

193. Prepare yourself

My powers of prediction tell me you will soon be called a whiner and mocked for being a coddled child-man who expects that you will get "teh sex" just for being nice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #193)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:45 AM

202. You make assumptions

But I will take your comment lightly. Because you are not me, and do not know me, it's understanding that you do not know what you are takling about. As I ended my comment as a rant, it would serve to inform those that I have a personal reason for doing so. I do not mind going into detail the reasons for my feelings but I will not go into greath length here. If you are interested I will message you with details of the past 20 years of my life starting with the most recent events.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #202)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:49 AM

206. You mistook my intent.

I am not calling you those things. That was a preview of what you are likely to be called by the 3 or so women ripping apart everyone man on this thread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #206)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:50 AM

208. I see now, thank you

I read some other posts and was seeing the pattern there too. Sorry for my overreaction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #208)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:53 AM

215. No problem at all. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #189)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:14 AM

291. It's great that you are now aware a shitty role was handed to you...

Shedding that role is difficult, but worthwhile if you want to engage with women on equal ground instead of as a protector. Those roles are a burden on both parties, in very different ways.
When you understand being a good person is its own reward and not expect a payoff, you will be much happier, and find others that want to be with you- instead of feeling compelled by your expectations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:29 AM

21. Where are we?

The prevailing attitude seems to be that we're not wanted in that role.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to theKed (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:42 AM

23. The friend zone. Where good guys go to die. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:03 AM

27. how dare a woman

decide a man is not .... fuckable.

what a whine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:36 AM

30. I thought only HS boys skulked around girls they do not want to be friends with .....

Desperately hoping to get laid as a reward for pretending to be nice? Time to grow the fuck up!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:16 AM

118. You have got to be kidding me.

Please tell me that's sarcasm, and you're making fun of the misogynist fucks who think the 'friend zone' is an actual thing.

(Clue for any readers who are still clueless: There is no friend zone. There is friendship. If you want sex and your friend doesn't, move on, get over it - she's just not that into you. Women are not sex vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until sex falls out. Deal.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:30 AM

121. ohhh, redqueen. say it sister. that is a very concise, clear way to explain it.

I like

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:28 AM

141. This thread is unbelievable.

I'm going back to bed.

With the failure of VAWA, the constant and continual attacks on women's reproductive rights, the pay and authoritative position inequities, the standard cultural use of prostituting women's bodies to sell products, just for starters, and the response is terms like 'damsel in distress'? What the fuck?

Good thing MRA's derailed their own movement by creeper redditt sites among other things or this would be much worse.

Thank God for men like my husband, and my male friends who do speak up and support women's rights without devolving into a whining session. It's easy for them to be passive because of male privilege, but light a fire under them and they don't respond with 'what about me'

Oh, and


http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/02/the-wot-is-feminism-chart/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #141)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:55 AM

144. unbelievable in a number of ways. damn it is not so tough,

for SOME anyway. lol

have about all the derail and gaslight going on. gotta look up gaslight again

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:58 AM

136. That's not really what "friend zoned" means....

Unless, of course, you're a really, really cynical person.

In which case, carry on....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:18 AM

245. What do you think it means?

Please, by all means, enlighten us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #245)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:22 AM

249. No, you already 'splained it for us cavemen....

Upon reflection, I would not dare contradict your expertise in 20 year old memes from tv sitcoms. There's probably a whole online seminar you can get credit and stuff for it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #249)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:35 AM

261. Aw, pobrecito.

Let me get ny violin.

You really have the courage of your convictions, I'll give you that.

Also, tv sitcom meme? WTF are you talking about?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #261)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:51 AM

275. "Also, tv sitcom meme? WTF are you talking about?"

LOL....what a shock that the various crackpot bloggers you cite for all your important research don't know where the term "friend zone" actually came from. If they did, most people would realize it's an innocuous pop culture reference like the guys screaming "Waaaassup?" on the old Bud Light commercials and the Spice Girls, not a turgid phrase containing the treachery of entitlement and patriarchal control you want to build it up to be.

From Wikipedia:

The term "friend zone" was popularized by a 1994 episode of the American sitcom Friends, "The One with the Blackout", where the character Ross Geller, who was lovesick for Rachel Green, was not only declared being "in the friend zone" by their friend Joey Tribbiani, but was also labeled "mayor of the Friend Zone". The question of whether a man can ever "escape the friend zone and begin dating one of his female friends" was a prime ingredient in making the Ross and Rachel pairing interesting to watch; one writer described the two as a "geek dream couple".

Mind you, I never watched the fucking show, I'm surprised they came up with something that clever honestly.

But of course, WTF am I talking about....you 'splained it for me.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #275)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:59 AM

282. LOL, it says a lot that a bad joke from a bad sitcom would be flogged to death for decades

by self-pitying, sexless men.

Please do continue with your outrage... It's hilarious!

Holy shit... A crappy joke from decades ago, and pitiful men treat it like it's totally real and oh so seriously serious and earnestly painful stuff... My sides hurt...

Jesus... This honestly could not get any better...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #282)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:21 AM

293. LOL indeed

I guess you should probably feel silly screaming about "misogynist fucks" and all that um, "non outrage" you display when the term comes up, but then again, that 's why you're you. Don't ever change.


I would still ask for a partial refund from Sylvia Plath College Online, though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #293)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:27 AM

296. Oh, but they most definitely are misogynist fucks!

And though I always knew they were also idiots, now I know just how severely idiotic they really are!


All the moaning and whinging and bellyaching... citing a joke from fucking Friends as a serious problem in their lives... Oh, the drama!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #296)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:44 AM

303. I'm sort of confused as to who's taking this seriously?

You seemed to be taking it very seriously until I dropped some knowledge about it. Now you're doing the Emily Litella bit and laughing it off.

Also, if you have the link to whatever blogs address this "serious issue" because I know a couple women who actually still use the term all the time and it sounds like they need to be re-educated lest they become misogynist fucks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #303)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 AM

307. lol... "dropped some knowledge"... yeah, thanks for Googling it



I'm real sorry that you're unaware of how the term is most commonly used.

You act like you understand the term better than anyone else, then refuse to explain what it "actually" means, making some nonsensical comment about cynicism... ... Then you cite Wikipedia for the origin... And now you claim not to know jack shit about common usage, ouside of a couple of women you know. LOL

Good luck with gaining a deeper understanding of cultural use than Wikipedia provides. Until then, enjoy pretending.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #307)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:13 PM

365. I'm sorry

I'm apparently unaware it became a euphemism for mass genocide sometime between 1994 and now.

Let's talk about cynicism and the definition of the term.

Noun

1. A platonic relationship where one party develops romantic feelings that are not returned. Also known as "unrequited love".

In myyyyy day long before we had MP3 players and HDTV....back when AOL was cutting edge and Paula Abdul was only about four years removed from musical relevance....that term was used (not by me) to describe a platonic relationship between a guy and girl that had hit an impasse where one person wanted the other to be their girlfriend/boyfriend and the other just wanted to remain platonic. That's it. And yeah, both guys and girls went through it. Now yes, I understand what that all entails TO YOU....OMG, someone's gonna eventually want to have SEXUAL INTERCOURSE....and that, ESPECIALLY if you are a man (AND YOU JUST KNOW IT'S MAN because they always want their penis in something!), is bad....very, very bad. Entitlement and all that.

Funny thing about us kids from the 90's, though. In between listening to Pearl Jam and watching "Pulp Fiction" is that we weren't really as jaded as you are. It wasn't always about sex. Sometimes (I know this is hard for you to grasp) a guy or girl actually fell for a friend. They hung around one person enough, and shared the same interests in music and movies and art and sports that yeah, one person developed greater feelings for the other than was reciprocated.

I went through it. Started hanging out with a girl. Honestly, I thought she was a flake when I first met her. Then one night, because of some bizarre circumstances, we spent an evening waiting for a friend at the airport and yeah, I fell for her.

This part may be hard for you to understand. I'll let you breathe deep, so you can prepare your eye rolls or whatever machinations I imagine go on as you start to twitch behind the keyboard.


My first thought, after falling for her, was not "I want to fuck her"

I did a lot of hand wringing for a long time, eventually it came out how I felt, and it was not meant to be because she just wanted to be friends. I would never use the term....but others did in describing that situation. I felt bad about it. Pretty depressed for awhile. I actually kind of went into a fetal position for a weekend, I think.

Not very manly, I guess. Continue to roll eyes and steam.

But I also saw one of my best girl friends absolutely destroyed by the fact that she had fallen in love with a guy within our circle. And he was simply not interested in her that way. She got "friend zoned". She used the term being a fan of the stupid show, and no one clucked their tongue at her about it either. And I guess I was an awful friend and human being because instead of telling her to "shut the fuck up", "deal", and "get over it" as an enlightened person with a winning personality such as yourself would....I commiserated with her and gave her a shoulder to cry on and talk it over about, as did others having gone thru it. I would do that for any friend....make or female....and not tell them that their gender meant they could or could not have those feelings depending on which they were.

So ya, I can keep on "pretending" I know more than what you know I guess. Maybe someday, when all shred of empathy is drained from my body and I no longer have memories of having to console someone who just had "The Talk" (go Google that, I've never bothered to, I doubt it made it to the widespread lexicon of pop culture) and I resort to hectoring and lecturing people on a message board about what we're going to do as a gender about what some anonymous 14 year old boys on Flicker are saying, I'll "get it". Of course, I'll have to lose my memories of my younger days, and my friends, and our romances to engage in that sort of talk. I'm sorry if my perspective is just a bit more innocent, and yes, less cynical that yours right now.

2. A plot device used in fiction and films, most notably (slang) "chick flicks".

Oh shit, now I've done it.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #365)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:45 PM

376. "Oh shit, now I've done it."

Aw, how cute. You think you're funny.

Cause lots of women hate the term "chick", right? And there are sure to be some in this thread who find it bothersome, yeah? But but but you only quoted it, so ha ha...

This part may be hard for you to understand. I'll let you breathe deep, so you can prepare your eye rolls or whatever machinations I imagine go on as you start to twitch behind the keyboard.


Yeah, again, don't quit your day job. I dunno if you actually think that has some semblance to reality or what, but ...

It's... odd... that you apparently think unrequited love is a 'thing' that only 'your generation' gets, 'maaaaan'. I reckon based on your apparent hints that we are about the same age. Newsflash: Those have been going on, since, um, forever. And no, it isn't 14 year olds whining about never getting 'past' friendship.

So, again, good luck with the whole understanding cultural context thing. (Hint - it isn't just what you and your buddies think, there's actually a whole big world out there, and there is a common usage, and the unrequited love thing - which you somehow find a huge mysterious new thing, LOL - that ain't it. Keep trying though! You know, if you want. I seriously don't care.)

And so, in closing, it is so sadly amusing that you are bouncing between 'its just a joke!!!1!' and 'seriously this is about LOVVVVVEEEE you are so MEEEEEAAAN!' without the slightest hint of awareness...

Also, you need to get your outrage detector recalibrated cause yeah, calmer than you are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #376)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:50 PM

379. It's okay....

....you just keep on 'splainin to us, deeeeeaaar.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #296)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:17 PM

333. Your behavior here is cruel and arrogant.

Some things you might want to keep in mind.

First, I think you need to get past the penis when you're conversing with someone. Believe it or not, men can be actual people with actual feelings. When 'friend zone' was brought up, you immediately jumped to the conclusion that this was another 'nice guy' trying to worm his way into someone's pants with fake kindness. Now, there's no doubt that phenomenon exists, but you sure hit that button quickly. The white-hot scorn of this last reply... wow.

For me personally, I miss emotional intimacy a hell of a lot more than I do physical. There's a level of emotional intimacy you get with a partner that you just can't achieve with friends. For me, that's the meaning of 'friend zone.' For a lot of my male friends, the same applies. It's a dated, silly term, but generally, men who talk about the 'friend zone' would like to date someone, not just have sex with her. I miss buying gifts for someone. I miss doing random things to make someone smile. I miss doing random things on her chore list and watching her smile when she realizes she's got extra time that she can spend on something enjoyable. I miss cooking for someone. I miss listening to her, knowing that the listening helps her. None of these have anything to do with sex. They all have to do with caring. I'll do all these things for friends, but it's different with a partner. There's a difference between loving and being loved as a friend, and loving and being loved as a partner. I am blessed with the former. I miss the latter very much.

Being alone can be a serious problem for men. We have much higher stress baselines, live shorter lives, and are far more prone to depression as compared to men who have partners. These aren't random assertions. They are facts borne out by medical studies. People who are lonely merit compassion, not contempt - even men. This is where seabeyond's "you're bitter because you're not good enough for us" theme as versed above becomes problematic, as well.

I can't recall a single time that I've ever seen you say something kind about men. I've never seen anything but vicious, slashing, contemptuous anger from you towards my gender. That observation does come with caveats; a) I'm very willing to admit that I haven't read all of your posts and I could simply have missed something; b) you do make valid points some of the time;
c) you don't represent all women, any more than one Asian person represents all Asian women, so my disagreements with you are personal.

While it's a very valid thing for you to demand understanding, compassion, and action for women as a whole, it's pretty difficult to deal with the incredibly vituperative nature of your dialogue and with you personally. It's difficult to have a frank dialogue with someone who brings a machete to a debate. It parallels the difficulty with modern feminist/postfeminist epistemology; when "masculine" becomes a synonym for "negative" and "feminine" is the synonym for "good," it's not easy to gain a lot of appreciation for that epistemology from men. When I've read it, I've had to ignore the knee-jerk reaction to that set of assumptions and try to parse out a researcher or writer's intent.

I am not telling you that you should be submissive. I'm not telling you that you have to agree with anyone. I am telling you that I think it'd be a good idea for you to try to gain an understanding of what someone is trying to communicate before obliterating it. I also think that it'd be a good idea for you (and seabeyond, for that matter) to treat men as individuals, not as part of a monolithic collective. Just because there are 'nice guys' out there doesn't mean that the man who responded to you is. Just because there are sexists out there doesn't mean that the man who disagrees with you is. Just because there are misogynists out there doesn't mean that the people who argue with you are. When you're not snarling at someone, both you and seabeyond talk of educating others on DU. As an educator, I can tell you something that crosses all racial, socioeconomic, and gender lines: patience and humor work, and insults and anger don't.

Take care.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #333)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:35 PM

335. I've had countless discussions about this issue... (the 'joke that no one takes seriously) according

to my other interlocutor.

Save your scolding, it is even more rude. I'm not your student.

There is admittedly a vanishingly small percentage of men who aren't entitled fuckheads, who might ignorantly start using this idiotic term. They are making a grave mistake.

Here's the thing. There are lots of lonely people. Men AND women. Notice how women seem to accept such loneliness as simply 'the way it is'. No fairy tales tell little girls that the good girl always gets her boy. No, that's for princesses. Some girls do grow up with an entitled, princess-like attitude. A few. Those with the looks, usually, to be able to maintain that fantasy past adolescence. Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood. These are just a couple of the ways men are conditioned to expect such companionship.

Women? We read 'He's Just Not That Into You' and get a cat. And get mocked.

So yeah, life is hard, and while I do have empathy for those who are lonely, I also recognize how much pure hatred is fueled by such loneliness, when it is combined with unchecked entitlement and male privilege... so spare me if, in the context of a thread like this, the very obviously misogynist concept that if a man is nice to a woman, he has any reason to be resentful, let alone hostile, that she doesn't magically develop romantic feelings for him, I get all uppity with those who would push such laughable yet still offensive notions.

p.s. Yes, I do praise men. You have missed it. Avoid assumptions. Also, the tone argument? Not valid. I'm not doing PR.

p.p.s. I'm not usually even so brash as I was in this subthread. I found it amusing that someone would actually try to sell such crap (that's not what it means, no I won't tell you, here is the origin, well my friends say it means x). I mean, seriously.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #335)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:14 PM

339. Hm.

I've had countless discussions about this issue... (the 'joke that no one takes seriously) according to my other interlocutor.

Well, I didn't take that into account. My mistake.

Save your scolding, it is even more rude. I'm not your student.


Of course you're not my student. There's every possibility that I have things to learn from you, which, I suppose, would make me your student. And I don't scold my students. It doesn't do them or me any good. As a teacher, I try to praise personally, and criticize impersonally.

There is admittedly a vanishingly small percentage of men who aren't entitled fuckheads, who might ignorantly start using this idiotic term. They are making a grave mistake.

I can't see how it would be a grave mistake. It just seems a little silly to me, but I'll admit that could be ignorance on my part.

Here's the thing. There are lots of lonely people. Men AND women. Notice how women seem to accept such loneliness as simply 'the way it is'.

Well, that's how I feel.

No fairy tales tell little girls that the good girl always gets her boy. No, that's for princesses. Some girls do grow up with an entitled, princess-like attitude. A few. Those with the looks, usually, to be able to maintain that fantasy past adolescence. Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood.

Would you agree that your last point is injurious to men as much as anyone else? And maybe it's an artifact of my generation and location, but I always heard that it was the good girl that got her boy, and not the bad girl. I always thought that the whole "princess" thing cast all women in the role of princess and was, at the least, somewhat disempowering. The difference is, women have learned that the "princess" thing is harmful. Men have not come to see the sloppy, etc. guy gets the girl as disempowering. I commend your gender, at least, for seeing through the fog.

These are just a couple of the ways men are conditioned to expect such companionship.

Oh, I stopped expecting it a long time ago and started expecting singlehood. Most men, when pressed, would admit that, too. You know what, though? It's a scary prospect. And it sucks.

Women? We read 'He's Just Not That Into You' and get a cat. And get mocked.

And men turn to food, get sloppy, do geeky hobbies, or watch football, and get scorned. And I hate the cat thing. I'm allergic.

So yeah, life is hard, and while I do have empathy for those who are lonely, I also recognize how much pure hatred is fueled by such loneliness, when it is combined with unchecked entitlement and male privilege...


I have to tell you, I think the hatred gets fueled by loneliness whether or not entitlement or privilege enter the picture. Of course, the privilege and entitlement certainly throw fuel on the fire. I've been on the other side, too; I've turned relationships down because I just didn't feel that spark that was necessary. I would have thought it unreasonable for them to hate me, so I can't hate the ones who don't feel that spark for me.

so spare me if, in the context of a thread like this, the very obviously misogynist concept that if a man is nice to a woman, he has any reason to be resentful, let alone hostile, that she doesn't magically develop romantic feelings for him, I get all uppity with those who would push such laughable yet still offensive notions.

I can't disagree with that for a second.

p.s. Yes, I do praise men. You have missed it. Avoid assumptions. Also, the tone argument? Not valid. I'm not doing PR.


OK, I did miss it. I was trying to avoid assumptions when I admitted the possibility. Not doing PR? Fair enough. But I've found that I generally tend to win more people over when I try to not go after them. You've been very patient in your reply to me, and you've really well elucidated a vague resentment I've had with respect to how men are set up for expectations. You've made me think, not react.

p.p.s. I'm not usually even so brash as I was in this subthread. I found it amusing that someone would actually try to sell such crap (that's not what it means, no I won't tell you, here is the origin, well my friends say it means x). I mean, seriously.

Well, then, you have my apologies for treating it as a norm.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #339)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:27 PM

345. Thank you.

Your comments about recognizing that men are human beings with feelings seemed scoldish... I know that of course... I have a partner whom I love more than anything and anyone else in the world (that I didn't give birth to), and there are many, many men whom I respect and admire. As far as recognition of women's issues I will cite David Futrelle, PZ Myers, and even Will Wheaton.

There are also plenty of men on DU who don't sit back and say nothing when sexist crap is posted here, and who challenge macho culture BS as well.

And then there are the many, many men out there who do shit like this, brilliantly hijacking MRA propaganda efforts:

http://twitter.com/search?q=%23ineedmasculismbecause



Men who actively challenge the mindset that women are less than are loved by all who loathe the patriarchy. The men and women who still buy into it, of course, mock and ridicule such men. But so what, because fuck them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #339)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:11 PM

352. I think you were more right the first time

I saw a bunch of - "lonely guys "

What is so funny about loneliness of others?

It's not about any feeling of entitlement either. It's about not getting something that you NEED.

"Contrast that with men, who are fed a diet of 'sloppy, overweight, geeky, goofy, not-terribly-bright guy gets the girl' stories well into adulthood."

Really, now is that a nice line? Does that not kinda ASSUME that all terminally single guys are sloppy (okay guilty) overweight (not guilty) geeky (guilty) goofy (guilty, but what the fuck is wrong with making people laugh by being silly?) not terribly bright (not guilty).

But what the hey. Lonely guys are "whining" and "angry" because they are in pain. Why not just laugh at their pain? It's not like that will give them more pain and more anger. After all, the world is full of hate, pass it on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #352)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:56 PM

382. That isn't assuming jack shit about single men.

It is simply an observation that stories marketed to men send the message that every man gets a 'girl'.

And nice logic fail, its entitled and misogynist men, not lonely men, who are resentful and hostile that their "niceness" doesn't get rewarded.

Lonely people who feel cheated? That's entitlement. No one is owed a romantic relationship.

Do some reading. Learn what hateful bullshit ideas you are agreeing with. Then again, maybe you know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #382)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:01 PM

383. "Lonely people who feel cheated? That's entitlement. No one is owed a romantic relationship."

Have you ever told a lonely woman friend that? Would you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #383)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:07 PM

384. I've never met a woman who felt cheated by not having a relationship.

I've met many lonely women. I've been one. Feeling sad about it sometimes is natural. Feeling depressed, even. But cheated? No. Angry because we expected it? No.

If I did meet anyone like that, I sure would.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #382)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:27 AM

439. you use the word cheated

I did not.

I said pain. A male is taught to turn pain into anger. What else are we supposed to do with it? Cry?

I think it is far more likely that anyone who is nice will get angry that niceness is not rewarded.

Oh, and name some of these stories marketed to men. Just a few.

How about this one

"First Blood"
"The Terminator"
"Armageddon"
"Independence Day"

lots of guys get killed in those movies, but they do not end with a "happy ever after". Lots of stories are like that, and those - are marketed to men, I am pretty sure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #333)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:22 PM

367. A great post

It may have been wasted on whom it was directed at, but not a waste period.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #275)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:08 PM

330. Memes don't always keep the same meaning that

they started with. A quick trip over to Reddit or Google images will show you that "friend zone" basically means "was nice to girl I liked,got nothing for it".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sufrommich (Reply #330)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:16 PM

366. People also don't know how to use the word "momentarily" correctly

I accept the fact society is dumbing down, I don't have to like it or cater to it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to redqueen (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

196. ROFL...perfect! I thought the "nice guy / friend zone" thing was by now so universally mocked

that nobody would dare mention it seriously, but I do believe your interlocutor actually believes that whole complex of misogynist nonsense. I love this: "Women are not sex vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until sex falls out. Deal."

Perfect!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #196)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:20 AM

248. You would think so, right? At least here...

but no. This ego-massaging nonsense has its adherents even on DU.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:19 AM

24. I didn't realize it was up to men to save all the women.

Wish I knew that they couldn't do it themselves, would never have worked so hard to get my wife a college education...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:34 AM

29. Veiled hostility and resentment....

Kind of proves the OP.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:44 AM

31. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:57 AM

32. WTF kind of response does he expect- explicit permission to look the other way?

Sounds that way to me!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:41 PM

66. Oh, so women are strong enough to protect themselves?

Which is it? The 'good men' have to save the women because they're all damsels in distress just sitting there waiting for a man to come along and save them. Or women are competent enough to protect themselves and run their own lives?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:38 AM

123. It's irrelevant what women are

it matters what you are. That is all that you can control.

Women would like all men who are willing to listen and hear, and take an active role in helping to change the culture. It's really not hard to understand and there's no reason for you to feel so put upon.

If you don't want to listen and hear, then don't. Just as you can't control women, they can't control you. You have the privilege to not give a crap about it if that's your choice.

There are millions of men who get it and/or try to understand. We celebrate them and appreciate it.

O/T thank you to whoever gave me the heart! >3

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:00 AM

145. If you don't want to listen and hear, then don't.

thank you. very well put. after a couple of the posts, as sorry i am their life sucks, i want to say. dont bother, really.

thank you for making it so simple

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #145)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:35 AM

262. I've noticed that people who say they don't care

but want to engage you in an argument about why it's mean of you to ask them to hear you are working something out that I don't have time for So, to each their own. I'm busy working with those who want to overcome obstacles to understanding. No time for being a punching bag/sounding board/devil's advocate

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #262)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:42 AM

269. yes. i do not often come into these threads any more. i got sucked in.

but, i was in the middle so i could better understand something that is more important. revelations. peeling the onion. even with this mess there are things to learn. thanks.

i got your posts, lol... see. it helped me to take a step further in understanding.

outta this thread. other things to do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #269)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:48 AM

274. I get sucked in all of the time, too

You're right about the onion. Bonus: I always meet other people (like you) that make it worthwhile and teach me something. And I get to see how many women are feeling the same frustration I feel.

I really dislike the bullying of women who are expressing themselves. It's so kneejerk with some folks (not calling out anyone in this thread- I mean this in general), and comes from such a sense of innate privilege that the person often doesn't even realize or probably intend to do it. It breaks my heart watching a woman trying to articulate what is a shared, silent pain and some person comes in to mock her or tell her to buck up -- an attempt to silence her, which only ironically speaks to the truth of what she's saying.

have a great day

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:28 PM

316. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:42 AM

124. You really believe on these pathetic stereotypes?

If so, very sad for you. How about thinking of women as people instead of damsels or or people who owe you something?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #124)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:38 AM

138. I resent the notion that women can't accomplish anything without men.

Which is what I think the OP implies. Hence the damsel in distress. Literary license, call it whatever makes you feel better, it's all the same thing to me. That's the point I was trying to make.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:54 AM

165. It's a given we have accomplished a ton with, historically

More opposition from men (and their female cohorts) than help.
But we are speaking to supposedly liberal men here- what in the world makes them want to be punitive and withhold support?
Sadly it looks like personal animus more than anything. The expectation that women should first cater to them or make their discomfort a prime concern. Their support is conditional on us putting men first. And they see no irony in this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #165)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:33 AM

185. +1. Men are going to have to start having a conversation with other men to address their feelings.

I don't expect african americans to patronize me when I stand up to racism. It is uncomfortable sometimes, especially at work, and I know I get some blow back because of it. But if you are standing up for what you believe is right, what is appropriate for our society, then your reward comes from your self esteem. It has to be a fight that you have a stake in a human being. How can that be so hard to get? And if you need a reward system in place to keep you motivated, or resent having to alienate yourself at work, or in social settings, cause women don't/can't fight their own battles, then you really do not have a stake in a different society. And everything else is pretty much lip service. That anyone can see the burden women have had to shoulder in our society and then ask what's in it for me, or complain about the discomfort of dealing with their feelings is narcissistic and borderline infantile.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #185)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:42 AM

197. 8 months preg, amarillo texas, at an auction house with a hundred people.

my mom there that knew many of the people. i try to be respectful to parents social environment and behave.

the hardest thing i did.

sittin in the audience the auctionaire had a black "caricature" figurine with white lips. k, not a favorite. get it thru and move on. but, he had a black man standing next to him, an assistant. in front of everyone he says... you might want to cover your ears on this one. if he had not been condescending, insensitive to the man, i would have stayed quiet. the man said, it is ok. but, you could see he was totally uncomfortable standing in front of an audience of whites, with a white being so condescending.

i said....

he may not have a problem with it, but i do.

i hated doing it. i hated calling more attention to the pure bigotry of the item with our history. but, i felt i had to stand with the man and not let it go any further.

i was ready for battle. the man backs down and says, we will just put this one away.

horrible feeling, scary. but, .... do we keep our mouth shut?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #185)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:21 PM

341. At least one man here acknowledged he learned his old school sex role from Dad...

Which I found encouraging. Most men blame the female... And usually their approach and attitude is there way before we have a chance to influence it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:31 AM

184. No...

We all need to look out for each other. ALL of us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FightForMichigan (Reply #184)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:52 AM

212. exactly. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:03 AM

230. The surest way to make women capable of "fighting their own battles"

is to legally enable them to arm themselves and kill their attackers, whether child molestors assailants or rapists.
Enable a woman to avenge legally and yes, she'll fight her own battles.
The problem is that that's a sans-loy solution.
Women are competent enough to protect themselves at least fifteen to twenty years after they reach adulthood.
They, thankfully, become invisible through age.
What Ensler is probably referring to is the worldwide repression, the malicious wounding, neglect and wrongful death of women.
Women systematically raped in the Congo and India, subject to FGM in Africa and Asia, subject to fistulae by brutal sexual practices and disfigured in acid attacks in the Hindu Kush and even in the UK.
The problem is not what men do not do.
It's what they do with their silence.
They are complicit in the brutality that does exist.
They are further so in their refusal to publicly judge the conduct of other men.
Yes, men have truly DONE a great deal to make sure that the world, for women, stays exactly as it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to burnsei sensei (Reply #230)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:07 AM

235. amazingly excellent post.... thank you. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to burnsei sensei (Reply #230)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:25 PM

343. Very well said, but those angry at women will avoid responding

Probably because they can't really lecture you about "tone". Well done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:27 PM

107. You have totally missed the point

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sirveri (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:43 AM

199. +1 Elegantly put

Adults have to take their own responsibility for a change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:10 AM

36. well, speaking for myself, Eve

I live alone.
Nobody makes love with me.
I have no kids.
And not very many friends of either gender
I have sisters and they know where I am and I support them
my mother knows where I am too, but has not really been a part of my life for about 28 years. Eternally supported? Only if the word 'infinitesimally' is added in the middle.

And who am I supposed to be "standing with"?

How many women are "driven to the point of madness and action"?

And if there is "action" then why is it so often THIS type of action - the action of scolding men, the action of telling men how privileged they are, or how scary they are, or how guilty they are? Am I supposed to be standing beside you now and wagging my finger at other men?

Well, this close to Valentine's Day, what I feel is that I have been rejected by almost all women. I have been told and told and told and told that I am not worthy of their love and affection. That they think they can do better. Usually I am rejected just on sight. They look at the Green Eggs and Ham and decide they won't like it, without even trying it.

And now that they went off and tried to do "better" and they find themselves humiliated and/or abandoned by the men they have chosen, they expect the men they rejected to come rescue them? To stand beside them now? I don't owe them anything. And further, as I look around it seems to me, they don't really need my help anyway, because many of them have done better. They have better jobs and they have spouses and drive nicer cars, while I am still the janitor on a bicycle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:23 AM

39. Is every single post from men here going to be self centered?

So far, it's the typical whiney BS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:36 AM

41. I know

why don't we all just suck it up and give and give and give even after years of being spit on, why don't we just keep giving?

and actually, I do give. I gave $1,000 to combat neo-natal tetanus and also to give an award to a woman who had supported my opponent in the recent election.

As for whiney BS. The OP made some claims. It claimed that men are "showered with love" from women.

And I answered that claim.

Your "refutation" such as it is, is nothing but another insult.

But I guess that it just more of the "love and affection" from women. Yeah sure, the more you call me "self centered and whiney" the more motivated I am to "stand beside you".

Maybe solidarity should go both ways. Maybe some men are being "humiliated" too.

But who cares about that? They should just shut up and quit whining. Their problems are not any more important than they are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:50 AM

42. If you're not getting any its because this whiney piss poor attitude

Is scaring people off.
Oh look, we've made this all about YOU.
Happy now?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:04 AM

45. "getting any".

Very disgusting way to put it.

Is sex a gift from women to be "had"?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:57 PM

68. Oh please, you're the one suggesting we owe men some sort of debt for

"Protecting us". In case you didn't notice, the poster responded to was resentful for not getting any live from the ladies.
Every man who'd posted thus far has made it about themselves. Were talking about a societal problem and the response is about their personal lives. The ego shown is astounding. And there's an undercurrent of resentment towards all women, solely because they weren't successful with the few they sought out. That's petty bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonobo (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:40 AM

191. So the truth comes out

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:18 AM - Edit history (1)

it appears these women don't want "independence" afterall.

So sad they simply don't grasp the damage they have done to society.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #191)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:43 AM

198. It is called accidentally revealing yourself. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #191)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:57 AM

222. bah hahahahah. you bad feminist, you have RUINED our society. now, where do we hear this talk?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #191)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:35 PM

371. You're not making any sense.

The poster I responded to had a whole fucking laundry list of things he wanted to get from women. Like its a transaction- hes been keeping count.
He freely admits his failures have embittered him. For this he lashes out at feminists. And yes- it's literally and obviously only because he hasn't gotten what he wanted. Not any of it.
Unfuckingbelievablely entitled bullshit.
Sad excuse for a human being, and not liberal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:07 AM

46. we could make this about you?

If you are not getting any help from men (the claim of the OP)
It is because your man-hating attitude is turning people off.

What I am "not getting" is

"love and affection"
"love and understanding".

I would say that men and women are "really not that different"



But it never hurts to hear the message "you DESERVE to be rejected".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:05 PM

73. Why would I react as if this was about me? I'm not so self centered or paranoid.

So your anger and resentment prevent you from being a stand up guy. Not really anything to be proud of, but at least your upfront about it. Ick.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:05 AM

168. I sincerely hope that you get some help to deal with these issues.

Life is too short to live with the lies of a society that constantly judges a persons value based on appearances.
Sorry, this is in response to "green eggs and ham".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:55 AM

280. that's a very sexist comment

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #280)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:01 AM

284. I was responding to a post bemoaning not getting any....

Sex or affection. And using that as a rationale for having a bitter attitude towards feminists. He reduced it to a quid pro quo situation- and I responded in that context.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:14 AM

48. Self-centered in the sense that we're telling you that the OP is wrong about us.

Yes.

We're equipped to tell you what we think and do in a way that the person quoted in the OP is not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:22 PM

65. Yes, is it, when the OP is about crticizing men.

You bet men are going to push back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MicaelS (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:02 AM

167. Push back with sad stories about how random women weren't kind to you? Seriously?

With anecdotes about dating? How in the world is that a pushback? It's whiney anecdotal nonsense, not worthy of debate.
Waay off topic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #167)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:23 AM

178. i dunno. i am thinking a woman being raped would be at least level playing field with angst.

you know, being controlled and dominated, abused, raped... and yet still, many women get past that to have healthy, grounded relations with men.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #178)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:31 AM

183. It's really odd that some guys feel these anecdotes mean anything.

Do they forget assholes come in all stripes and colors? That its not okay to be complicit in oppression because of a bad experience or two with part of any "group".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:57 PM

115. That's what happens when you tell a person what they think...

you take away their own experiences/voice, then call it whiny BS? Good luck with that strategy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bettyellen (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:59 AM

224. The original post is a whine about

how the white knight doesn't come to save a woman's day. That is the ultimate whine and ironic that"feminists" support such a message. But it reinforces though how badly beaten the feminist movement is when they lash out at the easiest target, the passive, empathetic, loving male which is never supported in society or media. Having the feminists piling on is priceless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #224)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:03 AM

231. it is called common decency not gender specific. let go of the white knight and you are a step

ahead. i see the "white knight" is the new word for a couple of you. really, let that go.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #231)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:23 AM

250. Common decency went out the window

when you attack the easiest target. Quiet, kind, empathetic passive male. It is a direct attack on why someone choose to live their life this way. I refuse to become a war mongerer male, or a feminist filled with anger.

If you don't like it is your problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #250)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:27 AM

255. how easily SOME men can chuck oh, common decency, standing up for fellow man, ect...

all cause they do not like what is being said.

me? not so much. i cant do that. regardless of how jerky some are, i still have to hold true to my integrity. common decency has not gone out the window. it is all around us. many of us live in it 24/7. i couldnt live without it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #250)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:30 AM

258. So you're not in favor of common decency but harbor illusions

You are kind and empathetic? Um... not really.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #231)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:45 PM

405. Ms Henslers' quote is a demand for chivalry. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #224)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:23 PM

313. I dont see it as...

...women wanting to be "white knighted," as them wanting us to be fellow knights. My take on it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:55 AM

281. +1,000,000,000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:28 AM

40. Why don't the men in this thread get this?

OK, as a white person, if I hear another white person make a racist joke, or do something racist, I call them on it! I sit right there and say, "UH, no." I correct them. And if they keep on with the racism, I disassociate from them and let them know why.

But that doesn't exist when men make rape jokes, or sexually degrading comments about women. Are men calling them on it? Are they walking out?

It reminds me of the "you can't stand still on a moving train" thing. If you're going along with it, you're part of that movement.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gollygee (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 AM

43. Why don't the women on this thread get it?

When a bunch of big jock studs are sitting in a locker room guffawing at rape jokes, they are not going to stop guffawing just because some nice guy "calls them on it". At least they will not stop guffawing for longer than it takes to give that guy a wedgie.

Then they will leave the locker room to meet with their cheerleader girlfriend while the nice guy sits by himself in the library with his underwear halfway up his butt (whether he calls them on anything or not).

And the beat goes on.

I don't think I have ever heard a "rape joke" in my 50 year life. Other than the constant stream of jokes about how men will be raped in prison.

The men here are not standing up for our right to say and listen to rape jokes or sexually degrading comments about women. We are responding to an OP that claims we get all these benefits and then berates us for our supposed apathy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:18 AM

49. it was the women that pushed and pushed to make prison rape jokes NOT acceptable on du, by men

making those jokes. and women repeatedly calling it out until we got enough support from men.

you are welcome.

i have a son who is not football, but sits in those locker rooms and speaks out whether sexist or racist or rw. he does not get wedgies. though sometimes physically challenged, he has learned how to stand tall and use words, also having earned respect thru his own personal action, he has support.

there are girls that look to the guy sittin' in the library wanting a date, but that guy in the library doesnt give her a second look because she is not a cheerleader.

just to mention a few points in your post

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gollygee (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:22 AM

52. Here, let me help YOU get this.

Bill Cosby on the passivity of whites;

I am over the passivity of good whites. Where the hell are you? You're our neighbors, friends, coworkers and brothers and sisters in arms. So why aren't you standing with us? Why aren't you driven to madness and action by our oppression?

Get it? Did you note the complete absence of any recognition of your own good behavior in that regard? Do you agree with Bill's fundamental right to choose the brush with which to paint you? Accepting THAT is passivity.

The men here DO get it. They get the fact that Ms Ensler is factually wrong, and rhetorically counterproductive.

Ms Ensler is entitled to tell me what she thinks. She's not entitled to tell me what I think.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:26 AM

54. I wouldn't be at all offended by that

I don't need to be given a cookie every time someone discusses racism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:27 AM

55. my reply. DAMN STRAIGHT AND YOU GOT IT.

literally. damn straight. we whites need to address it EACH AND EVERYTIME one of our own throw out racist shit, or white privilege.

hell yes....

not hard for me at all lumberjack. as a matter of fact, over the years, i have consistently adn constantly taught this to my boys, nieces and nephews. not to mention speak out about it with all in my life.

hell ya.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seabeyond (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:31 AM

56. Both you and gollygee don't understand "Bill's" point.

He's poking you in your white chest. He's hoping to shame you into making YOU change YOUR nasty racist ways and attitudes. Not some generalized other, but you.

Claiming that you don't hold the attitudes in question is denial. "Bill" knows better.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:32 AM

57. i do not agree. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:33 AM

59. I also disagree. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gollygee (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:39 AM

60. Well then maybe it would be appropriate to ask Eve which kind of guys she's not yelling at.

"Passive" would be the kind of guy who meekly accepts that kind of presumptuous slander.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:43 AM

200. You're really overthinking this

On the one hand, you answered your own question. What men is Eve talking about? The passive ones.

What do you think passive means?

Passive means here a man who sees sexism, misogyny or outright violence against women and does ... nothing.

Passive does not mean a man who doesn't adhere to traditional gender roles and isn't stereotypically aggressive.


What did you think she meant?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FightForMichigan (Reply #200)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 11:30 AM

297. But that's not what she said.

The subject of her first sentence isn't "passive men", it's "good men", and she's pissed off at their perceived passivity.

It is presumptuous to redefine what people are saying by rearranging their words on the fly.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #297)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 04:04 PM

359. She's over the passivity. Noun verb noun.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:02 PM

70. Not at all. I'm not stupid enough to mistake a critique on our culture

For a personal attack. But many here are confused.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink