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Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:40 PM

Melissa Harris-Perry: Obama Administration Has Institutionalized 'Perpetual War' - HuffPo

Melissa Harris-Perry: Obama Administration Has Institutionalized 'Perpetual War' (VIDEO)
HuffPo
Posted: 02/10/2013 11:44 am EST | Updated: 02/10/2013 11:55 am EST

<snip>

Melissa Harris-Perry was alarmed over President Obama's drone policy on Saturday, lamenting the country's "perpetual war state" and alleging that Obama has expanded some of policies put in place by George W. Bush.

The MSNBC host was reacting to a controversial Justice Department white paper, which says that the U.S. can legally order the killing of Americans if they are suspected of being senior Al Qaeda members. Harris-Perry noted that while on-the-ground fighting in Iraq has largely ended, she said that there are still special forces units and drone strikes being carried out in war zones — a development she said indicated the country's never-ending state of war.

"The perpetual war state ignited in response to the September 11th attacks has become an institutional apparatus that needs no particular provocation," Harris-Perry said, adding that kill lists and "imminent threat" have become "entrenched protocols" since 2001. "Counterterrorism policies put into place under President George Bush have been continued and robustly expanded under President Obama," she alleged.

Harris-Perry alleged that despite Obama's calls for the contrary, his administration has largely institutionalized "perpetual war."

<snip>

Link (w/Video): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/10/melissa-harris-perry-drones-obama_n_2657457.html


36 replies, 2224 views

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Arrow 36 replies Author Time Post
Reply Melissa Harris-Perry: Obama Administration Has Institutionalized 'Perpetual War' - HuffPo (Original post)
WillyT Feb 2013 OP
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #1
xchrom Feb 2013 #2
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #3
Catherina Feb 2013 #4
ReRe Feb 2013 #7
woo me with science Feb 2013 #16
reACTIONary Feb 2013 #18
Catherina Feb 2013 #19
reACTIONary Feb 2013 #36
Catherina Feb 2013 #22
yardwork Feb 2013 #27
Catherina Feb 2013 #29
Overseas Feb 2013 #5
colsohlibgal Feb 2013 #6
PragmaticLiberal Feb 2013 #13
woo me with science Feb 2013 #17
ProSense Feb 2013 #8
ReRe Feb 2013 #9
Beacool Feb 2013 #10
Cleita Feb 2013 #11
harmonicon Feb 2013 #12
DirkGently Feb 2013 #14
Catherina Feb 2013 #20
WillyT Feb 2013 #21
Catherina Feb 2013 #24
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #15
Bonobo Feb 2013 #23
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #25
Bonobo Feb 2013 #26
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #30
Bonobo Feb 2013 #33
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #35
Zoeisright Feb 2013 #28
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #32
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #31
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #34

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:42 PM

1. Sing it with me: "Wherrrre the JOBS are, some war waits for me....."

Apologies to Connie Francis!

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:45 PM

2. Du rec. Nt

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:49 PM

3. "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed...

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:12 PM

4. No ifs, ands or buts about it either. Perpetual War for Perpetual *Peace*

Ike warned us. Kennedy warned us.

By the 1980s, 6 million people had died in CIA covert actions. Imagine the number now.



John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

"3000 major operations, and 10,000 minor operations... bloody and gory beyond comprehension.. . we have organized death squads in countries around the world... we count at least - minimum figure - six million people who've been killed (by CIA ops) in this long 40 year war that we've waged against the people of the third world"


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Response to Catherina (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:08 PM

7. Agree!

Agree! Agree! Agree! No ifs, ands, or buts!

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Response to Catherina (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:05 PM

16. +1

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Response to Catherina (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:36 PM

18. Six million covertly killed by CIA ops seems a bit exagerated.....

... I searched around the web a bit to see how this number was estimated. This is the best breakdown I could find, apparently from a book called The Praetorian Guard

Coming to grips with these U.S./CIA activities in broad numbers and figuring out how many people have been killed in the jungles of Laos or the hills of Nicaragua is very difficult. But, adding them up as best we can, we come up with a figure of six million people killed-and this is a minimum figure. Included are: one million killed in the Korean War, two million killed in the Vietnam War, 800,000 killed in Indonesia, one million in Cambodia, 20,000 killed in Angola ... and 22,000 killed in Nicaragua. These people would not have died if U.S. tax dollars had not been spent by the CIA to inflame tensions, finance covert political and military activities and destabilize societies.


I'm not sure I would include the Korean and the Vietnam War in the category of "CIA covert operations" or chock up the death toll to "CIA Ops". These deaths are real, but calling them the work of the CIA - let alone the covert work of the CIA - is a bit much.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:47 PM

19. Just off the top of my head

after reading that, there were over 250,000 in Guatemala which isn't mentioned there and the number for Vietnam, according to Robert McNamara is 3.6 - 3.8 million. I believe the figure for Indonesia is 1.5 million. Then we've got places where we don't even bother to count like Colombia, El Salvador, the Congo. And all those little places where the numbers are in the low thousands, hundreds.

250,000 here, 4 million there, another million here, 10,000 here and pretty soon, six million actually seems rather low. But whatever the number is, it's much too high.

I see with your point about covert but first, that's in the uploader's description, not the lecture and 2nd, they were covert at the time because the US public didn't know about them. Congress didn't even know about all of them. Also I would include Vietnam and Korea in CIA operations because that's how they got their American start.


About the Vietnam numbers, I have no problem with McNamara's estimate because the Hanoi government released a similar number in 1995


The Agence France Presse (French Press Agency) news release of 4 April 1995 concerning the Vietnamese Government's release of official figures of dead and wounded during the Vietnam War.


HANOI (AP) - April 4. Cinq millions de morts: 20 ans apregraves la fin de la guerre du Vietnam, le gouvernement de Hanoi a reacute veacute leacute, lundi, le bilan d'un conflit dent le nombre de victimes avait eacute teacute minore a l'eacutepoque pour ne pas affecter le moral de la population.
Selon Hanoi, il y a eu pres de deux millions de morts dans la population civile du Nord et deux autres millions dans celle du Sud. Quant aux combats proprement dits, les chiffres sent d'un million cent mille militaires tueacutes et de 600.000 blesseacutes en 21 ans de guerre.

Ce dernier bilan comprend a la fois les victimes de la guerilla vietcong et les soldats nord-vietamiens qui les eacute paulaient. Les preacute ceacute dentes estimations de source occidentale faisaient eacute tat d'un bilan de 666.000 morts parmi Ies combattants Vietnamiens.

Loose Translation



The Hanoi government revealed on April 3 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population.
Given a Vietnamese population of approximately 38 million during the period 1954-1975, Vietnamese casualties represent a good 12-13% of the entire population. To put this in perspective, consider that the population of the US was 220 million during the Vietnam War. Had The US sustained casualties of 13% of its population, there would have been 28 million US dead.

Anyone who thinks the US lost the Vietnam war should reconsider their definition of "lost". The North Vietnamese Communists were willing to pay any price in terms of the blood of their people to dominate the Republic of Vietnam. General Giap was not a genius: he sent his own men out to be slaughtered. The Hanoi government hid this information from their people not to avoid demoralizing them, but to avoid a rebellion among their own population. The North Vietnamese Army went to extraordinary lengths to remove their dead from the field of battle because they did not want the US to discover their true battlefield losses. Contrast this with the fact that the US government published weekly lists of killed and wounded and disseminated this accurate data to the news media.

http://alabamavva.org/stats.html


Thank you for this conversation because you got me curious enough to google him. His wiki entry was so interesting that now I want to order his books. I'd also like to find his testimony before Congress if that's available.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:35 PM

36. I'm glad my post was helpful to you...

... and the numbers that were provided in the quote I posted seemed correct and verifiable. However, what I thought was puzzling about the post was not the number of people killed in the Vietnam or in the Korean war, which is a matter of public record, but the attribution of those deaths to the CIA and to "covert operations". Those were very public wars, not "secret wars", let alone covert operations.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 10:16 PM

22. I think this is a much better video in case you're interested

John Stockwell on CIA Disinformation, Assassinations, and the U.S. Congress (1987) Part 1




Part 2




Description: Uploaded on Feb 12, 2012
In this program, a documentary is presented in which former CIA employees and other people who have written about the CIA tell of the extent of penetration of the mass media by the CIA and how the media are used by that agency to manipulate public opinion. CIA whistleblowers such as John Stockwell and David MacMichael relate how these operations actually were implemented in various covert actions in which they were involved around the world. At the conclusion of the film, John Stockwell comments on other specific instances of disinformation and compares these with the general practice of the American government, particularly in the Reagan Administration, to lie, to distort information, and to manipulate the press.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:56 PM

27. Posting so that I can watch this later. Thanks.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:08 AM

29. Part I was very good.

I'm saving part 2 for later.

Ok, I'll be honest. I got distracted. This one caught my eye and I drifted




I think I'm hooked. Let me know what you think after you've watched

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:39 PM

5. Sad K&R.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:58 PM

6. Blowback

What Dubya and Obama on a lesser scale don't seem to get is they may well be creating two or more future terrorists for every hit that has, as most do, created "collateral damage".

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Response to colsohlibgal (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:01 PM

13. It's quite possible you're right.

But I've never heard an alternative that I thought would actually work.

I know some folk just say (or allude) leave them alone and they'll leave us alone.


Perhaps I'm just naive but I don't buy that.


It's not a black and white situation as far as I'm concerned.



Edit: I'm not thrilled with the drone program


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Response to colsohlibgal (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:13 PM

17. Absolutely.

How anyone can believe we will continue to live in our protected bubble when our government is doing these things...

This is how "bubbled" we are in one percent propaganda.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:09 PM

8. Completely disagree.

"The perpetual war state ignited in response to the September 11th attacks has become an institutional apparatus that needs no particular provocation," Harris-Perry said, adding that kill lists and "imminent threat" have become "entrenched protocols" since 2001. "Counterterrorism policies put into place under President George Bush have been continued and robustly expanded under President Obama," she alleged.

Bush's "counterterrorism policies" were haphazard and dangerous, including torture, which is about the only thing Bush attempted to justified...actually he lied to justify the Iraq war. If Bush had actually tried to define rational and legal policies, the wars in Aghanistan and Iraq would have ended long ago.

Obama’s Smart Move on Drones - by Michael Tomasky
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251285628

Remembering Bush, accurately
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022343435

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:12 PM

9. K&R

And here's a link to something related! http://www.StopNDAA.org

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:14 PM

10. I can't stand this woman.

But, there is a first time for everything, and I agree with her assessment on the use of drones.

Harris-Perry alleged that despite Obama's calls for the contrary, his administration has largely institutionalized "perpetual war."

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:42 PM

11. I think this country's policies in that respect have gotten out of hand.

We have in fact become a rogue nation with a formidable military at the hands of those who would use it for profit and gain. It has to stop. If we don't stop it eventually there will be a nation or a coalition of nations who will step up to the plate and defy us.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:44 PM

12. As if this were new... ugh.

I don't know when this state of perpetual war actually started, but I know that it was already well-entrenched when I started paying attention in the Clinton years.

For all of Eisenhower's warnings about the Military/Industrial Complex, I'm quite sure this may have already been going on when he was president. I imagine there must have been at least one book written about the Korean war which one could read.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:28 PM

14. Wow. If Obama's lost MHP on this issue, you know it's bad.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:54 PM

20. I never heard of her before

There's no MSNBC where I am. Was she that solid a supporter?

The bottom line is I think Obama has lost a lot of people on this issue. The people promoting drones as some "acceptable" way of murdering people that they hope people with conscience won't complain about have miscalculated. As bad as it appears to some on DU, the reaction and level of disgust here are pretty muted because of the house rules.

Whoever she is, I agree with your conclusion, it's bad.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #20)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:59 PM

21. Here Ya Go:



Melissa Victoria Harris-Perry (born October 2, 1973; formerly known as Melissa Victoria Harris-Lacewell) is an American author, television host and political commentator with a focus on African-American politics. Harris-Perry hosts the eponymously named Melissa Harris-Perry weekend news and opinion television show on MSNBC.

She is a professor of political science at Tulane University. Prior to that, she was an associate professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University from 2006 to 2010 and taught political science at the University of Chicago from 1999 to 2005.


More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Harris-Perry


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Response to WillyT (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 10:22 PM

24. Thanks Willy!

I'll keep an eye out for her now

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:32 PM

15. Sorry, but the concept of "perpetual war" was initiated with the founding of the CIA in 1947....

....long before MHP was even born.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 10:19 PM

23. That does not invalidate her statement in the least. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:53 PM

25. Was that a serious response? nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #25)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:54 PM

26. As a heart attack. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:11 AM

30. Let's see...the difference between 1947 and 2008 is 61 years....

....you don't see the MAJOR difference in time between MHP's comment and when "perpetual war" was actually institutionalized?

Seriously?? Or is there something else at work here?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:15 AM

33. In #15 above, you said "initiated". Now you are saying "institutionalized".

Do you know the difference between the two?

MHP is saying that Obama has institutionalized it.

If it had been institutionalized in 1947, why have we experienced the two longest wars in US history in the span of the last decade?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:52 AM

35. Oh, I'm terribly sorry to have confused you....

...I'm not sure there's a great deal of difference between the two words particularly when we're discussing the "perpetual war" we've been in since 1947. But if you want to quibble over minor details, feel free.

The meaning of "perpetual war" is exactly that, regardless of how that war is being waged....overtly, covertly, or both. We have been involved in war-like actions since 1947 in virtually all corners of the earth...South America, Central America, the Caribbean Basin, Europe, Asia, the old Soviet Union, China, Indo-China, Japan, Africa, and everywhere else you can imagine. And all for the sake of furthering the business interests of the United States.

By the way, neither of the wars in the Middle East were the longest in US History. That dubious distinction belongs to the 19 year period of time from 1954 to 1973, otherwise known as the Vietnam War. Here are a few points to consider:

* 1954: The initial CIA team in Saigon was the Saigon Military Mission, headed by United States Air Force Colonel Edward Lansdale, who arrived on 1 June 1954. His diplomatic cover job was Assistant Air Attaché. The broad mission for the team was to undertake paramilitary operations against the enemy and to wage political-psychological warfare.

* 1955: By 31 January 1955, a paramilitary group had cached its supplies in Haiphong, having had them shipped by Civil Air Transport, a CIA proprietary airline belonging to the Directorate of Support.

* 1956: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumed responsibility from the French for training South Vietnamese forces.

* 1957: Thirteen Americans working for MAAG and the US Information Service are wounded in bombings in Saigon.

* 1959: Major Dale R. Buis and Master Sargeant Chester M. Ovnand become the first Americans to die in the Vietnam War when guerillas strike at Bienhoa.

Unless you want more details, I think we all know the rest of our involvement in Vietnam until our final departure from that country in 1973.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:06 AM

28. Oh bullshit.

He's ENDING two wars. Harris-Perry can be quite the little alarmist.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:13 AM

32. Bingo. +1000. nt.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:12 AM

31. Another "in-depth" analysis from a pundit with one of the most boring shows on MSNBC. nt

 

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:48 AM

34. marking to read later! nt

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