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Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:49 PM

You are not required to support Dorner,

but you should try and understand him. He is not that different from any other human that becomes obsessed with their own failings and can't find away to rise above their pain. Dorner knows what he is doing is wrong, but he has lost the ability to care.

The most unfortunate reality is that he is most likely correct, that without events to shed a light on the insular behavior of police services, nothing can ever change. Institutions don't suddenly decide they have too much power and step back.

Suddenly the LAPD is faced with a demon of their own making. They held him up to a standard he would not accept then excluded him and stripped him of his identity. This is a bad deal for all involved but it is nothing more the inevitable consequences of systematic abuse. It no longer matters if he is right or wrong, he has already forced the LAPD to change.

The police are now trying to bribe the public. First they want to pretend they are going to be fair to him (re-open investigation), and they want the public's help to find him. This tactic could very well backfire on the LAPD they have been abusing the public's trust out of sight for far too long.

The public seems to realize that the greatest danger isn't the suspect, but the institution who is acting desperately to stop him.

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Reply You are not required to support Dorner, (Original post)
libertypirate Feb 2013 OP
PDJane Feb 2013 #1
theKed Feb 2013 #2
robinlynne Feb 2013 #101
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #3
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #112
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #120
Duer 157099 Feb 2013 #4
B2G Feb 2013 #5
Duer 157099 Feb 2013 #6
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #56
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #84
beevul Feb 2013 #85
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #88
unapatriciated Feb 2013 #135
iandhr Feb 2013 #138
Catherina Feb 2013 #24
laundry_queen Feb 2013 #64
Fumesucker Feb 2013 #60
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #96
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #7
MADem Feb 2013 #8
Tikki Feb 2013 #11
2naSalit Feb 2013 #19
MADem Feb 2013 #27
2naSalit Feb 2013 #47
MADem Feb 2013 #104
2naSalit Feb 2013 #105
MADem Feb 2013 #106
2naSalit Feb 2013 #108
MADem Feb 2013 #109
SouthernDonkey Feb 2013 #114
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #123
2naSalit Feb 2013 #162
SidDithers Feb 2013 #131
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #61
MADem Feb 2013 #103
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #161
MADem Feb 2013 #167
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #178
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #75
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #115
MADem Feb 2013 #127
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #160
2naSalit Feb 2013 #164
MADem Feb 2013 #169
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #173
MADem Feb 2013 #174
Trajan Feb 2013 #9
MADem Feb 2013 #13
steve2470 Feb 2013 #14
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #16
liberalmuse Feb 2013 #59
Trajan Feb 2013 #79
OKNancy Feb 2013 #86
Skittles Feb 2013 #90
one_voice Feb 2013 #92
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #116
graham4anything Feb 2013 #10
SwankyXomb Feb 2013 #73
FSogol Feb 2013 #12
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #18
FSogol Feb 2013 #21
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #23
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #25
zappaman Feb 2013 #26
FSogol Feb 2013 #28
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #34
FSogol Feb 2013 #36
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #40
FSogol Feb 2013 #46
zappaman Feb 2013 #49
FSogol Feb 2013 #54
zappaman Feb 2013 #58
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #89
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #38
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #43
graham4anything Feb 2013 #29
Zoeisright Feb 2013 #100
cali Feb 2013 #15
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #17
zappaman Feb 2013 #20
FSogol Feb 2013 #22
patrice Feb 2013 #50
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #66
patrice Feb 2013 #69
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #30
ProSense Feb 2013 #31
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #48
ProSense Feb 2013 #53
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #57
ProSense Feb 2013 #62
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #82
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #65
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #78
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #122
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #156
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #157
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #158
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #159
iandhr Feb 2013 #143
libertypirate Feb 2013 #98
patrice Feb 2013 #32
2naSalit Feb 2013 #52
patrice Feb 2013 #76
2naSalit Feb 2013 #81
ProSense Feb 2013 #33
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #55
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #67
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #72
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #74
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #80
EOTE Feb 2013 #152
2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #176
shcrane71 Feb 2013 #35
patrice Feb 2013 #37
patrice Feb 2013 #39
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #41
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #42
cali Feb 2013 #63
Kalidurga Feb 2013 #71
randome Feb 2013 #44
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #70
Shivering Jemmy Feb 2013 #93
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #94
Riftaxe Feb 2013 #117
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #119
SidDithers Feb 2013 #124
sharp_stick Feb 2013 #132
SidDithers Feb 2013 #133
Cha Feb 2013 #163
Number23 Feb 2013 #171
ButterflyBlood Feb 2013 #125
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #126
grantcart Feb 2013 #144
devilgrrl Feb 2013 #149
indie9197 Feb 2013 #110
geckosfeet Feb 2013 #45
MadHound Feb 2013 #51
sylvi Feb 2013 #68
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #77
JI7 Feb 2013 #83
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #87
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #91
EastTennesseeDem Feb 2013 #95
cali Feb 2013 #113
EastTennesseeDem Feb 2013 #177
mn9driver Feb 2013 #97
Zoeisright Feb 2013 #99
Terra Alta Feb 2013 #102
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2013 #107
JI7 Feb 2013 #111
dkf Feb 2013 #118
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #121
spanone Feb 2013 #128
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #129
2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #130
CanSocDem Feb 2013 #142
Paladin Feb 2013 #134
slackmaster Feb 2013 #136
cali Feb 2013 #141
iandhr Feb 2013 #137
slackmaster Feb 2013 #140
libertypirate Feb 2013 #146
iandhr Feb 2013 #147
caseymoz Feb 2013 #139
libertypirate Feb 2013 #148
caseymoz Feb 2013 #153
kjackson227 Feb 2013 #145
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #151
kjackson227 Feb 2013 #154
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #155
Marrah_G Feb 2013 #168
guardian Feb 2013 #150
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #165
Avalux Feb 2013 #166
TwilightGardener Feb 2013 #170
BlueCheese Feb 2013 #172
lynne Feb 2013 #175

Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:52 PM

1. Well said; I agree.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:54 PM

2. They want the public to help find him?

If I were in LA I wouldn't come within 5 blocks of any LAPD trying to "find" him, knowingly, considering the photos of that truck that looked nothing like his but they still thought was his. I'd be terrified of getting shot while helping.

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Response to theKed (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:11 AM

101. yes they are offering a million dollar reward now.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:56 PM

3. When he killed three people that is when he lost it. I wouldn't be surprised what he

 

was saying concerning the LAPD was right but killing three people justifies nothing. Maybe what good in his mind the truth will come out.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:31 AM

112. I believe we have a legal system which states that a person is innocent until proven guilty in

 

a court of law, mainstream media pundits notwithstanding. And LAPD LIE, so it is possible he is actually innocent. I will accept the truth as it is revealed. And to clarify, I have not read any mainstream media reports on the deaths.

One thing which is certain is that LAPD wish him dead and shall not hesitate to bring about that condition, as evidenced by continuing potentially deadly assaults upon citizens whom they somehow believe to be him.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #112)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:10 AM

120. I should have said "in the court of public opinion". Sounds better.

 

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:57 PM

4. It's a good thing Dorner isn't a math teacher

Otherwise, everyone that ever learned "2+2=4" from him would have to disregard what he taught them.

I cannot understand people who are completely uninterested in the motives of someone like Dorner, because of what he's done. It *does* matter why he is doing what he's doing. My interest in understanding it is in NO WAY demonstrating sympathy or condoning his actions, and it is infuriating when people conflate the two.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:59 PM

5. Funny. Not many here are interested in Lanza's motives.

We have been told nothing about that, but it doesn't stop many here from going on a knee-jerk rant about legal gun ownership.

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Response to B2G (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:01 PM

6. I am very interested in Lanza's motives.

Maybe I'm just weird and quirky that way.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:45 PM

56. Have you seen the documentary, "Going Postal"?

It explains why people explode like Dorner did. Of course he is wrong, but he probably sincerely feels that he told the truth and lost everything he hoped for because of it.

I feel sorrier for his victims than for him, but I also have compassion for him.

If he knocks on my door, I will call the LAPD. But I am not capable of catching such a person and will stay home and out of everyone's way today.

I will say that the crime rate in LA seems to have decreased although not in all places. It flares up again and again here and there.

The police have a very, very difficult job. Police brutality is, I suspect but don't know, the product of the terrible stress that comes from doing a job in which fear walks with you every step every day. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a police officer.

This is a tragic human situation.

But killing unarmed people who pose no immediate danger to you is very, very wrong. Kicking an unarmed person who is under arrest is also not right, but it isn't as wrong as killing. We can't have a decent society for our children with so much violence.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #56)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:17 PM

84. LAPD officers might not have to BE so afraid if they would learn to treat Angelenos like

human beings and not like convicted felons in need of a good ass whupping.

If I treated everyone I met like they were pond scum, I might feel like I have to watch my back constantly, too.

I live here and deal with them often enough that I know to avoid them. They do NOTHING to help crime victims. They treat all citizens like we are already guilty.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #84)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:43 PM

85. Well said.

I wish I could buy you a heart, that post deserves one.

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Response to beevul (Reply #85)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:57 PM

88. TYVM. But don't worry about the heart. This is the first

year in a while that I've been able to buy any to give away.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:44 AM

135. At least that was how it was when I lived in the LA area.

I used to live across the street from an LAPD Narcotics Officer. If I heard it once I heard it a million times, we the general public were all criminals who just hadn't been caught yet. He had an us against them mentality, the police being the us and the general public being the them.

The stories he would tell would make you sick. I was friends with his wife, who was emotionally and physically abused by this man. She finally escaped him after years of abuse. The sad thing about this is during my friendship with her, I realized he was the rule not the exception in regards to the LAPD.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 AM

138. It amazing that you seem to have a lack a sympathy for his victims.

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Response to B2G (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:18 PM

24. Me too. I am very interested.

It's only with understanding that we might be able to tackle this growing problem. I'm afraid we don't have the courage to examine the real reasons, we don't want to know because it would cause us to reevaluate an economic and political system that puts profit over people.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #24)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:48 PM

64. +1 nt

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Response to B2G (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:45 PM

60. There was a great deal of speculation here about Lanza's motives

Speculation that was discouraged by a significant number of DUers.

Lanza has been quite thoroughly discussed on DU, to the point there's nothing more to say until more facts are known.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:20 PM

96. Thank You. This conspicuous dearth of curiosity has gotten my attention as well.

And it doesn't stop there either. it's like they're taking great umbrage
that ANYONE dare to be the slightest bit curious.

rather odd if you ask me.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:01 PM

7. "NOT REQUIRED"?! Well, TYVM for THAT.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:01 PM

8. The guy is a murderer. I have never felt "required to support" murderers.

I don't think murdering people is an effective way to get a platform for one's grievances, either. It's the act of a very disturbed individual--one who perhaps might be disturbed in his perceptions, too.

But all that is irrelevant. He killed people. Innocent people. It's not the way to make people listen to one's case. It is a way to commit suicide by cop, though.

If I had to guess, I'd say that all this "reopen investigation" stuff is an attempt to get the guy to pop his head up, either in person or online, so he can be tracked and apprehended or killed.

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Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:23 PM

11. It appears dorner executed two young people..for no other reason then he was mad at..

one of these precious young one's father.

The murdered young couple were a part of my community. They had everything ahead of them.

If he was the one that killed them then I have no pity for dorner. He needs to go to trial and stand for their murder.


Tikki

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Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:07 PM

19. I think that it was

to him, the only way to get the attention of the masses. It is true that such drastic measures are pretty much what is demanded by our self aggrandizing collective. Would there have been any news stories about his issues or would there be any catalyst for change otherwise? This is his manner of gaining the attention of the distracted public about something that is not only an issue of major import to him... it is one for all of us that we seem quite willing to keep hidden under the table so we can't see it to address it. The focus on what he has done to get us to see the problems are horrendous but we the sheeple seem to demand that in order to pay enough attention to condemn him, and just maybe take a look under the covers to discover the dead horse's head in his bed while we're at it.

And just for balance, what makes those shooting victims whom he is alleged to have killed any more innocent than the innocent people we are killing every day in our illegal war(s) by whatever technical means? We are a society who is the bringer of death by improper rationale everywhere so...

I don't support or condone his methods but I am willing to take a look at what he is trying to direct us to before I start hurling condemnations about his alleged narcissism or whatever. Obviously this guy was pushed to the edge of reason and wants the people to see that it may be systemic in nature and that it happens to too many of us with unfettered regularity. That's what I am getting from all of this. He is already winning the battle by exposing the ineptitude of the LAPD by scaring them into shooting at anything randomly and settling up after the fact.

After all, the taxpayers paid to train him to be a killer both at LAPD and in the military. Perhaps he had a morality that wasn't favored by the killing machine that we call our national security network and he is pointing that out in kind. Just maybe.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:35 PM

27. I think it was revenge, plain and simple. There's no pure motive afoot.

He murdered the beloved daughter of the guy he felt didn't "defend" him "good enough."

Come on. The guy is off the page. The balance of his mind is disturbed. His judgment is awry, and he's a killer.

And I would really like to know this guy's USN career trajectory. Was he a washout from flight school? Did he take the "Security officer's course?" What?

USN isn't in the business of training "killers," with the profound exception of the SEALS. And that guy looks a bit beefy to be a SEAL.

I think your second paragraph is sick--and not sick in the "cool kids" way, but sick in the "that's fucked up" way. To even attempt to quantify "innocence" is a bridge too far for me.

Once you start murdering people in order to force people to read a frigging manifesto, you have lost the high ground. You're a spree killer. A murderer.

Little children learn, early on, that two wrongs don't make a right. I'm amazed that there are adults on the internet who have trouble with that lesson, frankly.

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Response to MADem (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:29 PM

47. We each have our own perspective

Flame on as you wish.

Peace.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:40 AM

104. No flame, I just find the man's conduct indefensible.

You don't kill an innocent young lady because you think her father didn't do an adequate job of speaking up for you. That's just not on.

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Response to MADem (Reply #104)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:51 AM

105. And I wasn't defending him

I was trying to identify a possible rationale while pointing out a social flaw that may have led him to think his methodology was going to work for him. Not sure you got that point but at any rate, it is what it is and it isn't a good thing no matter how you slice it. If he hadn't gone and killed those people, I might have some sympathy for him... but I don't... all the same, I try to avoid condemnation in most cases. The big exception to that is politicians and their overlord$.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #105)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:08 AM

106. No one who thinks clearly believes that murdering innocents is going to work for them.

That's a tactic employed by someone who has a problem with rational thinking. Like Andrew Cunanan, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cunanan

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Response to MADem (Reply #106)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:22 AM

108. This leads me to inquire

what you know about mental health and mental illness. I have some first hand knowledge of some pretty intense mentally ill individuals as I have had to care for a couple with serious problems and have been acquainted with numerous others. I see that there is a lack of understanding in the report of Cunanan about a number of mental illnesses and the onset of some of these. Cunanan started showing symptoms of a few specific types of mental illness that seem to appear in one's late teen years, as seems to have maybe been the case with that individual. I think there;s something else going on with Dornen and I don't dare speculate beyond that as there aren't enough chunks of evidence to make such a call.

Whatever it is, he's not well or right in the head but other than that, nobody can really say. If he wanted o make a large public statement, I wish he would have chosen a different method.

That's all I have to say about it.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #108)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:47 AM

109. I know enough about the topic; I know a few people with serious mental illness who

have been in and out of institutionalized settings for the better part of their lives; I'm not going to go so far as to "Frist" this guy, but I'm not blind, I am sentient, and it is readily apparent from the guy's behavior that he's not right.

I am also not comparing this guy "symptom for symptom" to Cunanan--what I am saying is that there's a similar pattern of inappropriate behavior, specifically, the spree killing of innocent people followed by "going on the lam" and triggering a national manhunt.

No one had the opportunity to break down Cunanan's issues with an examination of the patient, except in a "post mortem diagnosis" kind of way--he killed himself after he killed Versace. No matter what people claim to know about him, it's just a best guess. He's not around to provide confirmation, dead men tell no tales.

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Response to MADem (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:25 AM

114. +1000

To many apologists for a crazed killer! There are no excuses for taking someone elese life because you feel agrieved. No ifs, ands or buts! He's a dangerous killer. He needs to be treated like one.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:46 AM

123. You are no different than the anti-choices who embraced Scott Roeder.

Appalling apologia and outright justification for mass murder. Sickening and indecent.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #123)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:05 PM

162. My goodness

that's pretty judgmental and attacking me for engaging in critical thinking appears to be an issue for you. It appears that perhaps you lack reading comprehension, critical thinking skills don't appear in your tool kit or both.

I was NOT apologizing for this person's actions and if you were capable of reading comprehension you would find that disclaimer in the beginning of my third paragraph... right here:

I don't support or condone his methods but I am willing to take a look at what he is trying to direct us to before I start hurling condemnations about his alleged narcissism or whatever.


And placing your disdain on my speculation as a judgement call on me as a person is a little far "out there". Perhaps you could take off your flame colored condemnation lenses and re-read what I wrote and actually think over what I was saying. I was not defending him but I am willing to analyze the situation with an unjaded view... maybe that's too much for some people with that knee-jerk response gene.

Sorry you couldn't get that part but maybe some day you might.

Peace

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #19)


Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:46 PM

61. MADem, Have you seen the documentary "Going Postal"?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:39 AM

103. No. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:21 PM

161. We saw it on Netflix. It investigates a shooting in a post office by a disgruntled employee.

These matters can be very complex. I thought it was a worthwhile movie. I recommend it and would be interested on your views on it.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #161)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:57 PM

167. If I come across it, I will watch it.

I do think there is a real difference --- though it's all murder, at the end of the day--between killing employees one believes are mocking or abusing one, and then, usually, shooting oneself, and shooting two innocent young people and then calling up the dad of one of 'em and taunting the guy and issuing threats because "He didn't defend me good enough."

There's a different pathology afoot here, I should think.

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Response to MADem (Reply #167)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:57 PM

178. It boils down to a central problem with the abuse of authority and the inability to deal

with authority in the workplace. The problems lie in the behavior on both sides. The employee feels helpless when facing the abuse of authority, what the employee perceives as an unfair firing or an arbitrary docking of hours or maybe a dishonest review. But the employee is helpless about dealing with it. Bosses can be really arrogant and dismissive of employees.

But it is all murder when you get down to it. The question isn't whether the murder is wrong or right. It is definitely wrong. The question is whether the anger that motivated the murder and perhaps therefore the murder could have been prevented. That's where I think there is work to be done.

I think that when people say that mental health care should be part of the solution to gun rampages, they are talking about teaching people to deal constructively with anger.

Anger management classes can really help people. Depends, of course, on how they are taught. But I have seen some amazing changes. Dealing with addiction and teaching people positive self-talk can also help in some cases as I understand it.

As a culture, we tacitly approve of people's expressing extreme anger in anti-social ways. Our TV and movies are full of exaggerated displays of anger and other negative emotions. That contributes to the view that violence and killing can actually be justified or remedy a situation.

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Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:59 PM

75. +1

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Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:37 AM

115. but it got him a platform for his grievances. so it has been effective in that way.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #115)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:11 AM

127. I wouldn't encourage murder as a way to get a platform for grievances.

I'm not thinking about his grievances, so I don't know how effective his tack has been. I'm thinking I am glad I don't live out west.

The LAPD may have said they are re-investigating his complaints to mollify him and prevent further murders (they have protection on fifty people, after all) or to persuade him to pop his head up so they can capture/kill him.

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Response to MADem (Reply #127)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:04 PM

160. i wouldn't either, but the fact is, it did get him a platform.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #160)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:17 PM

164. That's part of the conclusion I've come to

whatever the end of this story turns out to be, the intent was to get public attention and now he's got it. No matter how emotionally we respond, he accomplished that portion of his intentions. Whatever else he wants remains to be seen. What I was trying to say above was that our society pretty much demands outrageous behavior so that one's issues, regardless of how valid or messed up, come to the public's attention. If that ruffles feathers then I suggest those with the feathers might want to take a look at what actually gets your attention by someone you've never heard of.

The guy, no matter how messed up by whatever means, was of a mind to get the country's attention and so he has, 'nuff said.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #160)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:06 PM

169. I am watching the news coverage, and no one is talking about his grievances.

They are saying he is a batshit crazy, stone cold blooded, evil killer and he is NUTS. He kills beautiful, innocent young people, and then calls up their dad and taunts them in a vicious and reprehensible fashion.

No one is saying Word One about the "bad LAPD" or anything like that on any TV coverage I've seen. No one is "seeing his side" or having any sympathetic attitudes towards him.

They are saying that this crazy guy wants to kill fifty people, at least, and those people need and are getting protection. It's all "lock your doors, look out, be careful, there's a million dollar reward, and this guy is DANGEROUS!!!" There's no "poor misunderstood fellow" coverage at all.

So I don't think he got his way. His attempt to focus attention on his issues has failed. He's being portrayed in the media as a monster who needs to be captured or killed. The sooner, the better.

He's getting Cunanan-like coverage. He didn't get what he wanted. The ONLY place I am hearing any discussion of his "grievances" is amongst a small cadre of people here, frankly.

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Response to MADem (Reply #169)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 04:23 AM

173. his grievances are easy to find, and talked about, on the internet.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:23 AM

174. That's not the point. They just aren't the focus.

The focus is on where he might have gone, that surveillance tape has revealed someone looking like him bought scuba gear; that there's heightened scrutiny along the border; that the Mexican authorities are getting involved; that there's a million dollar reward out for this guy; that he murdered three innocent people.

No one gives a shit about his grievances.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:08 PM

9. Let me infuriate many DUers

The killing of innocent people is rarely justified in support of a cause ...

Sorry if I disagree, but Dorner does not get a free pass to murder innocent human beings because he, you, or anybody else disagrees with LAPD policies or procedures ...

DU has become a darker, meaner place ...

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:29 PM

13. You're not infuriating me in the slightest. I don't care for spree murderers, either. nt

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:35 PM

14. I agree with you

I think 99.99999999999999999999% of DU does also (always one, hence the lack of 100% )

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:38 PM

16. I, for one, have HAD it with the "disgruntled male" motif.

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:45 PM

59. I think you're missing it completely.

NO ONE here supports cold-blooded murder, and I think I'm safe in saying that for the most part, DUers do not believe the end justifies the means. There is no excusing murdering innocent people to make a point or get revenge on people you fell have wronged you. However, there is a problem with our police forces across the nation. Many of the things in Dorner's manifesto are truths we'd be foolish to deny. Does that mean he is justified in his actions and not a highly disturbed individual? Absolutely not. But to throw out everything he's said, and to discount that there's a serious problem with our law enforcement agencies - what they are allowed to get away with, how they abuse their power in too many instances to ignore, and the culture of corruption that permeates them because 1 man handled dealing with it in a unacceptable way would be a mistake.

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #59)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:10 PM

79. Silly useless response ...

Why bother?

I always understood DU to reflect the human community at large, with all the good and bad that goes with it ..

There are those in the community at large who will use the slightest pretext for committing the murder of innocent human beings, and there are those in DU who do the same thing ...

I am not surprised in the least ...

You wanna talk about how the police are really really awful? ... fine; we can do that, and you will find we are in nearly universal agreement ... but I won't tolerate using the justifications of a twisted murderer as the context of that argument ...

Murder is wrong ... PERIOD ... End of story ...

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:45 PM

86. + a lot!!

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:32 PM

90. THANK YOU

I cannot BELIEVE what some DUers are saying - it is DISGUSTING

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:42 PM

92. + a bunch!

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Response to Trajan (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:39 AM

116. does that apply to collateral damage from state drone murders?

 

I believe the president's representative said such killings were 'excellent and wise' or some such.

then there was madeline albright, who said the children killed in iraq were 'worth it' or something similar.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:14 PM

10. Fact-he killed multiple people. that supercedes any other consideration as of now.

 

Then he is nothing more than a vigilante and an anarchist.

Note-And I am not a fan of bad cops. And I come from NYC where there is like in Los Angeles, a history of bad cops
(why the good cops don't drive the bad ones out, I don't know).

But, can anyone here say they know the entire story of this case, except for what has been released?

There are like four different issues involved

One can be one who backs someone over three of the issues, however a private person killing multiple people is not one of the things I back.
That puts him in the same league as Zimmerman.

And yes Mr. Dorner is black. But that does not give one permission to overlook the murders.

That said, if I was on a jury, would I convict him of first degree murder?
NO (based on what is known), I would say he is most certainly NOT guilty by reason of insanity.

I am very sad he didn't get the help he needed for his demons.

It's like Tim McVeigh thought he had reasons to. NO he didn't.
NO the ones who did 9-11 didn't have the right to do what they did, even if they had a political reason.

NO the Son of Sam no matter what the voices in his head said, did not have the right to terrorize NYC for a year.

I really think this V for Vengence thing is getting out of hand.

Anarchy is NEVER the right thing to do.

IMHO.

(and if it weren't political, we would not be discussing it here.)

BTW, if he didn't have access to guns and bullets, he would not be so deadly, would he?
Are the guns legal? illegal? Does it make a difference? NO.
Another reason to ban all guns from the street of all types.
Once he was no longer a cop, he should no longer have been allowed any acess to one with the problems he has.



and are his backers saying that the LAPD should back off, let him finish off his list, and call it even?
I would hope not.
Life isn't a movie.
Movies have happy endings.
This one didn't.

imho.


btw3-Police head William Bratton is the link between NYC and Los Angeles police abuse.
It was on his watch in NYC and on his watch when the problem in Los Angeles occurred.
It has to be the training and what the goal is of Mr. Bratton.
He was quite controversial in NYC. And it was the black/white divide like most other things as to his popularity.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:57 PM

73. The good cops in LA don't drive the bad ones

out because there are a lot more of the bad ones, and they're the ones in power.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:27 PM

12. Unrec. Your hatred of the police is causing you to admire a murderer.



and your last sentence is wrong too.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:06 PM

18. So far two vehicles that DO NOT match the wanted vehicle

We're shot, one by LAPD, the second by Torrance PD.

This might lead to the belief that the cops are behaving in a heavy handed way. I got a question, don' feel insulted, you live on the right side of the tracks? For the record, I do, but ten years of EMS and now a year and a half of news coverage lets me understand these sentiments about LAPD in particular are not without foundation.

It might be shocking to you, but LAPD has been considered out of control for a few decades now. Scandals such as Rampart, were serious, as in seriously wrong.

It is not hatred of the cops to point out that LAPD as a few issues. For that matter, LAPD is not the only police agency with issues, especially if you live on the wrong side of the tracks...or have the necessary understanding of why people feel this way. It is not baseless.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:12 PM

21. Even from the East Coast, I understand that the LAPD is little better than a crimminal gang.

However, that doesn't make Dorner's actions correct, admirable, or justified. The OP isn't about hating the LAPD, it is essentially saying, look at Dorner's side. Regarding the quote of "He is not that different from any other human that becomes obsessed," I call bullshit. Dorner is different because he killed 3 innocent people.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:15 PM

23. Look into slave revolts.

The psychology, IMO, is similar. And like most in US history, It will fail.

The sentiment is coming from what I described. This kettle is boiling, and I fear it might boil over.

For the record, it does, I am staying out of there. Wrong skin tone.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:33 PM

25. How does Dorner have even the slightest paralell to a slave revolt?

He was college educated, an officer in the Marine Corps and a police officer. What slave ever had such a resume?

The fact that he's a sadistic murderer means firing him was a sound move by the LAPD to clean house.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:35 PM

26. What?

How on earth does this have ANYTHING to do with slave revolts?
As for the rest of your post, I cannot comment since it makes no sense.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:40 PM

28. Ridiculous!

Slave revolts? Boil over?



Police departments are under civilian control. They change when political will forces them to change. One nutjob with some guns won't make them change. Sorry to see DUers being fooled by Dorner.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #28)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:50 PM

34. Alas I am not talking of Doener, but the identification you are seeing

Also what is going on in LA.

But carry on. As I asked, you come from the right side of the tracts, don't you?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #34)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:55 PM

36. In the Slave riots?



Edited to add, where did you ask me anything?

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Response to FSogol (Reply #36)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:10 PM

40. Here




The psychology, IMO, is similar

Shocking, you now what else is possible? A Corrido, or a ballad.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:23 PM

46. None of your words form a coherent sentence. I'm finished, so

go ahead and have the last word.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #46)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:35 PM

49. I live in LA and am unaware of any slave riots recently or any time soon.

The LA police dept has a history of being corrupt but this has nothing to do with slave riots or the fact that Dorner is a lunatic.
My favorite tract is this one influenced by the great Jack Chick...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #49)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:42 PM

54. Cthulu? No, Galactus is coming!






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Response to FSogol (Reply #54)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:45 PM

58. Well...

between The Old Ones and The Eater of Planets, I'd say we are pretty fucked.
If I was a slave, I'd be rioting!
Thankfully, skin tone and right side of the tracts will be fine, I fear.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #46)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:26 PM

89. English is not coherent is a personal attack

But I do not alert or play jury.

I will just point out that if this was alerted it would remain standing.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #28)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:04 PM

38. Bullshit, civilians are under control and the police are one of the iron fists

in the toolbox of a system of controls by tiny few who rule and profit. Passing connections, wealth, and control down their lines like aristocrats of old. In many cases their blood descendants stretching back to the Holy Roman Empire or further back.

Occasionally, a bone is thrown to keep the pot from boiling over as long as the ruling class isn't overly disturbed. Every great while a sacrificial lamb is given up. Somewhat less often the next rung down knocks off the top and takes over under phony new management with new titles.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #38)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:13 PM

43. This is the exact dynamic I am talking about.

Wheter a Jackerie, a corrido, or a ballad, identifying with the "bad guy" the psychology is similar.

I almost expect a norteņo once it's over from the Ortega street, and music celebrating HS life from the wrong side f the tracts.

The sociology is fascinating now.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:42 PM

29. Did you think O.J. Simpson was persecuted in Vegas? I did.

 

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Response to FSogol (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:07 AM

100. Exactly.

I don't know WTF is wrong with some people here.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 03:37 PM

15. There is absolutely NOTHING in his manifesto that indicates that he believes what he is doing

is wrong. He feels utterly justified in murdering innocent people.

And correct about what? It sounds like what you are saying is that he is correct that the kind of action he's taken is needed.

You don't know what happened with him at LAPD. Nor do I.

LAPD sucks. I don't believe they created Dorner.

Dorner CHOSE to murder innocents who had nothing to do with his complaints about the LAPD.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:00 PM

17. Screw Murderin' Christopher. Nothing he wrote was new news and he murdered innocent people.

Find for me a big-city police department that doesn't have race problems, or brutality problems, or a thin blue line of its own. Anyone who didn't know LAPD was corrupt is either willfully ignorant or was living under a rock.

There is nothing to understand about this killer other than that he took the lives of people who had NOTHING TO DO with his troubles. All three were ambushed. This, in an attempt to "reclaim his name".

How anyone could feel anything but contempt for this murderer is unbelievable.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #17)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:09 PM

20. +1000! n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #17)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:13 PM

22. +1 n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #17)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:39 PM

50. Agreed but there is still the problem of what to do with him if they ever arrest him. he gets due

process & in the course of that, there is a significantly committed demographic (I'm not sure how big it is) who mistake this kind of thing for heroism in the service of principles. The point/value of that to them is exactly the degree to which it is a repudiation of how unbelievable it is to you and any others. It's reactionary contrarianism dressed up as "liberty". Have you ever dealt with anyone like that personally? The stronger your own convictions about what is right or wrong, the stronger their opposition, FOR OPPOSITION's SAKE ALONE and NONE other!

What to do? - especially when we're consider whether there is a possibility of this sort of thing becoming "writ large". I hope we are thinking about how to prevent that without armed confrontations.

I don't know specifically what to do, but I think it begins with understanding them and proceeding from there to the truth, by whatever means available and that doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, but to listen and also to be listened to.

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Response to patrice (Reply #50)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:48 PM

66. As I said before, his accusations are not news.

Anyone who's been live more than 15 years knows LAPD is brutal, racist, and secretive.

Killing people is simply killing people and has nothing to do with whatever wrongs thinks he suffered there. For that matter, killing people renders his rant irrelevant.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #66)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:53 PM

69. How many people support his point of view? What do we do about the "rights" that they claim,

PRIVILEGES, actually, to take arms up against the duly appointed representatives of our government? Won't/aren't they trying to make a martyr out of this guy?

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:42 PM

30. Proud to K & R

It's precisely these kinds of "asemetrical" events that have the potential to
wake up enough people all at once, so a REAL shift in consciousness can occur.

I certainly can't condone Dorner's tactics, because I'm basically into non-violence,
but neither can I condemn his motives, which are a tortured & tangled web largely
woven by the LAPD themselves.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:45 PM

31. "I certainly can't condone Dorner's tactics...but neither can I condemn his motives"

"I certainly can't condone Dorner's tactics, because I'm basically into non-violence,
but neither can I condemn his motives, which are a tortured & tangled web largely
woven by the LAPD themselves."

So you think there is justification for killing innocent people?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:33 PM

48. I refuse to go all one-dimensional on the Dorner situation

I'll answer your question with another question:

So you think the LAPD can do no wrong, i.e. is not a notoriously corrupt
institution that wields it's authority not in the public interest, but instead
is aligned with nefarious private interests who collude to abuse the public
trust, over and over?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #48)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:41 PM

53. Wait

"I refuse to go all one-dimensional on the Dorner situation"

...what?

"So you think the LAPD can do no wrong"

The LAPD is plagued by corruption. Now, what the hell does that have to do with Dorner killing innocent people?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #53)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:45 PM

57. Dorner was attempting to expose this corruption, but was punished for that.

That's how I heard the story initially, when it was breaking.

Has something changed that I missed?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #57)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:46 PM

62. That's justification for killing innocent people? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #62)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:11 PM

82. I never said that, you did. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #57)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:48 PM

65. And the typical human response to disappointment and injustice

is to murder three people?


Are you serious?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #65)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:03 PM

78. Thanks for putting words into my mouth, but no thanks

I did not say those words, you did.

As I've said in several other posts under this OP,
Dorner is clearly off the rails, is a criminal that needs
to be brought to justice, one way or another.

What I don't get, is why anyone is surprised anymore
when someone "goes Postal" <-- hell that was over a
decade ago.

What I DON'T WANT TO GET LOST in all the one-dimensional
dime-store novel villainizing of Dorner as being the ONLY
criminal on the LAPD payroll.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:15 AM

122. Does saying that entitle one to moral support from the indecent left

after becoming a mass murderer?

The Dorner fan club would love Adolfo Eichmann if he decried Israel's human rights violations.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #122)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:22 PM

156. You are over-reacting. Calm down for Christ sake.

All I am saying is I want to know much more that is currently
known on the M$M nooze about what's going down at the LAPD,
internally, that led to this.

Has curiosity become heresy on DU while I wasn't looking?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #156)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:24 PM

157. Well, curiousity as to what's going on at the LAPD is entirely

healthy and appropriate--it's not like this villain is the first to make such allegations--the news shows us there's a problem.

But talking about how "for all we know the government staged these murders" is no different than what the Sandy Hook Truthers said, and got PPR'd for.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #157)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:30 PM

158. So perhaps it was a poor choice of words

to make the point that there is a WHOLE LOT we do NOT
know at this point, so speculation is premature ...
that's the point I was attempting to make, but it apparently
got a whole lot of people's panties in a bunch at Meta.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #158)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:32 PM

159. Well, yeah, it was a really poor choice of words. nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:15 AM

143. One Dimensional?

He killed three innocent people. Thats the end of the conversation.

What did that couple do that merited a death sentence?

And no one here is saying the LAPD can do no wrong. We are saying that there is nothing in the world that can justify Dorner's actions.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:33 PM

98. You don't think society justifies the killing of innocent people everyday? /nt

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:47 PM

32. Thank You! Understanding does not require assent; it validates DISSENT with Dorner or anyone else.

Authentic honest understanding gives one options; it can free you to address reality as best you can.

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Response to patrice (Reply #32)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:40 PM

52. Indeed.

Thanks for your eloquent statement that makes more sense than the rampant flaming that is currently making the rounds. I prefer to have options for reason, myself.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #52)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:59 PM

76. An awful lot of reflex -ive responses going around right now. I fear being a reactionary is

characterized as "Liberty", even though I guess that will be, as it has been in the past, at the price of someone else's blood no matter how often we hear about that "tree of liberty".

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Response to patrice (Reply #76)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:11 PM

81. I hear you there.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:48 PM

33. "Dorner knows what he is doing is wrong, but he has lost the ability to care. "

Well, OK then. He's simply misunderstood.

Is that an argument for the Sandy Hook shooter too? I mean, are survivalists justified in killing people?

What about Jared Loughner?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #33)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:42 PM

55. I think the point is, that the LAPD created this Frankenstein

who happens to carry the name Officer Dorner.

If Dorner goes down as the only villain in this unfolding freak show,
then we will have missed a golden opportunity to "get it" collectively,
to get how far we've sunk, how dog-eat-dog we're fast becoming, how
laws mean nothing, etc. Dorner is resorting violent means, is a criminal
himself; but how he got there is also important, what or who pushed
him over that line?

As I see it, Dorner is also one of the victims as well.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #55)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:50 PM

67. Oh brother


Yeah, pooooooooor Dorner. After all, don't ALL ex-cops go around killing people when they don't get their way?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #67)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:55 PM

72. How is attempting to expose corruption "getting his way"? nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #72)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:58 PM

74. First of all, exposing corruption in the LAPD is exposing the wetness of water.

Next, one has nothing to do with the other, unless you are trying to mitigate Dorner's
murders by the LAPD misdeeds and injustices.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #74)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:10 PM

80. Granted, it's a tawdry tale all around, the annals of LAPD

what I don't get is why anyone is surprised that this kind of thing
happens, when they've been happening on an increasingly regular
basis, ever since the term "going postal" was coined over a decade
ago.

The other thing I don't get, is why some take such white-hot
umbrage when anyone dares to express the slightest curiosity about the
details of what led up to this guy going off the rails.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on these two

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:59 PM

152. Not all of them. A lot of cops don't wait to become ex-cops to kill people when they don't get

their way. A lot of cops like to take advantage of that perk while they're still serving.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:50 AM

176. there is no way to justify either

but coming to a greater awareness of the need for better mental health after Loughner or Newtown,

is similar to the nation coming to the understanding that LAPD needs to be investigated as well.

It does not justify the killing. It does not say "I agree"
Maybe it does say "we are going to see more of this kind of shit if something isn't changed in our system"

And that's bad?

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 04:51 PM

35. The world is a scary place when the public loses faith in their police force.

This whole story is just so sad on so many different levels. No one is winning -- let alone justice and fairness.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:04 PM

37. Understanding does not necessarily = agreement. Disagreement does not necessarily = misunderstanding

FOUR fingers!!!

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:10 PM

39. FOUR fingers!!!

George Orwell's 1984 - read it yourself, NOT the Cliff notes, NOT the wikipedia version:

http://books.google.com/books/about/1984.html?id=yxv1LK5gyV4C

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:10 PM

41. Good thing I'm not required.

Whew.

If he'd been in any other line of work, and had written a manifesto, and shot a few people, would I still have to try to understand him?

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:11 PM

42. Equivocation Underground


Let's just cut the shit. If Dorner was a white ex-cop from somewhere in the South and did this same thing, and wrote a non-left-leaning manifesto, there'd be hundreds of OPs calling for the hounds, copters, drones, lynch mobs, and even the mob the hunt him down and kill him.

Instead we have monkeyloaf like this OP, equivocating over a MURDERER.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #42)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:47 PM

63. This should be an op. bravo.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #42)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:54 PM

71. I was thinking the same thing...

But, I wonder how the PDs in the south would react to an ex-white cop pulling a stunt like this. I am thinking they wouldn't be putting dozens of bullet holes in vehicles just because they are trigger happy. Other than that, I am not sure what they actually would do.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:19 PM

44. Dorner waited 2 weeks to make his accusations.

They came the day AFTER his partner asked him to be reassigned.

So the available 'evidence' to us at DU indicates that Dorner was full of shit from the start and that there is nothing to the accusations.

That is not the same as supporting the LAPD. They are, as many have pointed out, sometimes little better than a criminal gang.

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Response to randome (Reply #44)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:54 PM

70. I think the point is, that Dorner is NOT the ONLY villain

Last edited Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:33 PM - Edit history (2)

in this tawdry freak show.

For all we know, Dorner was set-up, caught-up in the
rampant corruption machine called the LAPD. I'm super
curious as to the back-story here, that's all.

I have a capacity for distrusting impulsive rushes to
judgment mid-way into these kinds of unfolding stories,
where someone goes bonkers with guns ablazing.

I just want the WHOLE story, the WHOLE truth to be told,
not just a dime-store novel with ONE conspicuous villain.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:49 PM

93. "For all we know, it's a staged event"

My crazy filter blocked the rest of your post.

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Response to Shivering Jemmy (Reply #93)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:51 PM

94. The whole world is a stage ~Shakespear n/t

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:36 AM

117. You have convinced me, we should worship

this poor benighted fellow, whose only transgression is a triple murder, for surely not are we not as guilty as him?

Seriously i do believe you have a point, the freaks cheering him on are almost as nasty as Dorner himself. On the other hand it is a great way to identify the sociopaths.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:59 AM

119. Ugh. What jury let this insane post stand?

Seriously, who needs The crazy ass freeper conspiracy theorists with DUers like this guy.


I guess the "no crazy talk" part of the TOS is a dead letter.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:50 AM

124. WTF?...

70. I think the point is, that Dorner is NOT the ONLY villain

in this tawdry freak show.

For all we know, it's a staged event, so that massive
surveillance apparatus that Obama's been building can
document how private citizens respond and talk about
it on the internet.


Yes I have a capacity for distrusting impulsive rushes to
judgment mid-way into these kinds of unfolding stories,
where someone goes bonkers with guns ablazing.

I just want the WHOLE story, the WHOLE truth to be told,
not just a dime-store novel with ONE conspicuous villain.




Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:37 AM

132. You need your

tinfoil hat loon for this one, the little beanie isn't going to cut it here.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #132)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:41 AM

133. Yeah, you're right...



There's crazy talk, and then there's CRAZY TALK.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:14 PM

163. So the 99thmonkey edit that part out of this post?

For all we know, it's a staged event, so that massive
surveillance apparatus that Obama's been building can
document how private citizens respond and talk about
it on the internet


good to know. So much for the "WHOLE STORY".. and seriously doubt he ever wants the WHOLE STORY where President Obama is concerned.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:38 PM

171. Thanks for that, Sid. I was wondering what the fuss was about because the poster edited

Now having seen the original post...

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:52 AM

125. Are you a Sandy Hook truther too?

Nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:04 AM

126. Give me a frigging break

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:22 AM

144. Classic example of Monkey logic.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #70)


Response to randome (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:23 AM

110. Bingo.

He tried to play the system and it didn't work for him.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:23 PM

45. Oh good. I thought I was failing my radical liberal litmus test.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:39 PM

51. He murdered three people in cold blood.

 

He is not a hero, he should not be lauded. As far as understanding him, sorry, but millions of people in our country have been "obsessed with their own failings and can't find away to rise above their pain." The difference between him and them is that they actually found a way out, remained true to themselves, and didn't kill anybody.

Yes, his accusations about the LAPD are probably true, it has been well known, for generations, what shitpile the LAPD is. But rather than going all postal, he should have actually tried being part of the solution, going public with his accusations and information. Those who have done that, in the face of all odds, are the true heroes. However it is a tough path to follow, but in the end it makes a true hero of you. Killing people is the easy way out, and not heroic at all.

The man is not a hero, a Robin Hood, or any other sort of positive role model. He is a man who couldn't control his frustration and rage, and thus he lashed out and killed people. There is nothing to admire in that.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:52 PM

68. Americans generally don't make folk heroes

 

Americans generally don't make folk heroes out of people who have murdered innocent people. A few sicko fringe nuts maybe but no one of consequence. If he had shot a abusive cop or other corrupt official it might be a little different. One doesn't get much empathy for taking one's frustrations out on bystanders, no matter what your perceived injustice was.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:00 PM

77. He is the same as the Unabomber

I don't support murderers, whether insane or a sociopath, even if they CLAIM to be fighting injustice. Which he isn't.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 06:17 PM

83. i did try to understand him and came to the conclusion he cares nothing about exposing corruption

he is just using these things as an excuse to do horrible things to other people. i think he enjoys harming and killing other people.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:57 PM

87. Both Tampa and St Pete PDs had several cops shot recently.

After manhunts, they managed to catch the perps. Now, neither dept is squeaky clean...they have their troubles and occassional scandals. But, they at least managed to catch the cop-killers without endangering public safety by gunning down latinas delivering newspapers and surfers heading to the beach. Dorner is no longer relevent. LAPD racism and corruption isn't recent news. What we should be talking about is LAPDs complete incompetence, lack of training and restraint, that make them a greater threat than Dorner.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:38 PM

91. Dorner being a low-life murderer of innocent people and the LAPD being little better

than scum are not mutually exclusive.

Henry Lee Lucas was tortured as a child, as several other serial killers have been.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:09 PM

95. Please. That manifesto is nothing more than a blank check

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2013, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)

to murder as many people as he wants to while drumming up as much understanding for it as humanly possible, and it is really evidently working. As it stands, he didn't shoot a cop or anyone else he condemned. He murdered two people who were guilty by association, and now he has given himself the right to kill even more people guilty because they are within 2 or 3 degrees of separation of those who did him wrong.

If he did go through all that shit, then I'm sorry. I really am. But he lost any...understanding...I guess would be the word (sympathy would never be the word), from me and many others the moment he murdered two people who had zilch to do with absolutely anything. The fact that he hinted in his manifesto that future victims could be the friends of LAPD cops' school children (yeah, they really deserve it) saps whatever understanding could be left.

I do not know what he could have done, if what he said is truthful. And while the LAPD's reputation certainly precedes them, the fact that he is manipulating a vocal minority of the public opinion's emotion is enough for me to question the validity of any of his claims. The guy appears to be exceedingly smart. That's what's scary, that's what makes him so dangerous, and that is why the LAPD now has two things on its plate. It's a damn shame that that intelligence, when combined with the prejudices he has experienced associated with the color of his skin, could not have found a more productive, tactful outlet to deal with what he went through. As I said, I don't know what that could have been, but the fact that he A.) welcomed the public to put in FOIA requests, and B.) welcomed the media to look for documentation from his former superiors to corroborate his claims of his legitimacy as a good police officer (basically, the openness of the possible information associated with his case) lets me know that there was huge potential for some good to come out of this. He could have made the LAPD know that they fucked with the wrong guy in another manner. Instead he decided to kill.

I'm glad he is offering his brain to science in that regard, but the guy is nothing more than a murderous prick.

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Response to EastTennesseeDem (Reply #95)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:15 AM

113. This is a really good post and would make an excellent op

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Response to cali (Reply #113)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:18 PM

177. You and I appear to be on the same page.

If he were really into getting back at the LAPD, his first targets would have been the LAPD. Instead, he went after innocent civilians.

And now...today. This is just sad, and given the events that are taking place right at this exact moment, the OP is even more offensive to me.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:46 PM

97. We should try to understand people

who gun down a few others who have nothing to do with them in order to draw attention to their issues? I think I'll reserve my efforts for people who find other ways to publicize their grievances.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:07 AM

99. Nope. Not even a little bit.

He's murdering people in cold blood. I do NOT have to understand that.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:22 AM

102. Understand him?

I "understand" that he is a murderer. He could have chosen any number of avenues to make people aware of misconduct by the LAPD; he chose to murder three innocent people. I have no sympathy for him. I hope he is quickly found, whether dead or alive.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:15 AM

107. Then should we understand James Holmes, Adam Lanza, Jared Lee Loughner, or the many others

who for various reasons took a gun and killed people?

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #107)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:29 AM

111. Jimmy Lee Dykes, Tim Mcveigh, the guy who killed Dr. Tiller,

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:25 AM

118. I have tried to understand him and I don't think he is normal.

 

Normal people don't retaliate for perceived bad behavior by killing a person's daughter. That is psychopathic behavior.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:13 AM

121. Fuck Dorner and his supporters here. He is a murderous monster. Period.

No different than Eric Rudolph or the KKK.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:16 AM

128. 'The public seems to realize that the greatest danger isn't the suspect'

pssss...he KILLED three people.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:17 AM

129. If Lanza would have just written a manifesto.

Then we could all understand that "He is not that different from any other human that becomes obsessed with their own failings and can't find away to rise above their pain."

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:32 AM

130. The problem is that all of the people are victims of their society.

And our society has become filled with hate and violence.

Whenever one of these mega interesting, terrifying, and sad cases come up, I actually also have sadness for the perp and their family.

I know a young man who is in jail for some violence. I hate him, yet I have some pity for him because I do know that inside of him is just a man. If he had been raised in a different household, in a different type of environment, he would probably never have become a violent offender.

I have always been able to see what drives people to be assholes. It's what has happened in their life. I am convinced if we had a kinder more loving society that did not do so much harm to the people who need help the most, we would not have the amount of violent crime that we have today. We would not have so many families devastated daily.

So, yeah I see where Dorner is coming from. I am only beginning to see where Lanza was coming from. In his case it may be actual untreated mental illness. But for most of them it is their society, their upbringing, their lives.

In no way does that make their killing right. They are still murdering assholes. I'm just saying that often you can look and see the occurrences in ones life that drove them in the wrong direction. What made them assholes.

I enjoy our speculation on this site. Right or wrong it does bring up a lot of information.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #130)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:13 AM

142. Good post.



I'm not even surprised anymore when these violent incidents happen in the USA. Living next door to a pathological, heavily armed and unjust society is scary enough but to have to read the rants of so-called "liberals" screaming for blood is simply unnerving.

As you suggest, the society is itself the chief culprit, and the narrow-minded condemnation and vitriol focused against one individual clearly misses the point. Or....it is the point.

I'm convinced that those posters who insist on extracting their pound of flesh from Dorner are the biggest part of the problem.

If Sociology had been taught as thoroughly as 'Christian' justice, there wouldn't be this national psychosis.

.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:43 AM

134. Spectacularly Unconvincing. (nt)

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:45 AM

136. Psychobabble

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #136)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:00 AM

141. nicely done in one word.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:54 AM

137. The fact that there are people here is sympathize with him is mind boggling.

He CONFESSED to murdering three people. There is absolute nothing that justifies his actions.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #137)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:59 AM

140. I've been on DU long enough that it doesn't surprise me at all

 

A few among us are so tied to the idea that a person's politics define his or her worth that they are unable to rationally evaluate a person's overt behavior.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #137)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:39 AM

146. To understand is not sympathizing with a murderer

that is a false equivalency.

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Response to libertypirate (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:28 PM

147. Thats EXACTLY what it is.

To anyway show understanding AFTER a delusional mentally distributed maniac murders three people in cold blood is showing sympathy for a murder.


Most things in life are grey. But killing three people in cold blood is just WRONG. There is no middle ground here.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:58 AM

139. This is not a movie character.

This is a real killer who murders real people. You're either thinking that you see the camera and hear the dialog and music that show you the "real" Dorner, or you're trying to write that script.

Stop. Consider the fact that he killed the innocent daughter of the person who represented him in the case, because that lawyer didn't do a good enough job.

No, the LAPD didn't create a monster that strikes somebody related to someone who might have screwed him over. That's not a good man wronged; that's a dick with a capital D.

Dorner was evil before this happened, he just hadn't gotten around to doing his worst, yet. His vindictive crimes and manifesto show he should have never been on the police force, and any reason to throw him off, in hindsight, were either good enough, or would have been the next time he was brought to a hearing. And he would have been brought to the board again for a different incident.

Save the script pitch for Hollywood.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #139)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:36 PM

148. No I think you are the one reading into his

character. I think Dorner is the inevitable result of institutional corruption.

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Response to libertypirate (Reply #148)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:12 PM

153. Inevitable?

Do you mean statistically speaking, a certain amount of people in the LAPD will snap and go on killing sprees? Can you support this with anything besides your best guess? For a killing spree to be inevitable, it would have to be a common outcome. It isn't.

I think he "snapped" then joined the police force. Therefore, the fact they even had him on there to start indicates institutional corruption. In other words, maybe Dorner's very employment on the force was the "inevitable result." I still think that no functional police force would have guy of his personality on it to begin with.

By comparison, his turning to murder, seems to be too rare for former law enforcement to be considered in any way inevitable. Are you sure you meant that phrase?

The universe is governed by luck and probabilities. There is no such thing as inevitable justice in it. Only story narratives, such as movies, have that kind of structure. Yes, I think you're informed by story narratives, such as movies. Ask yourself what your visceral reaction would be meeting Dorner after what he's done.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:25 AM

145. I don't condone what Dorner did...

in murdering those innocent people, but I very well understand why he did so. I work in the HR department of my company, and I see people with authority abuse and take advantage of their power CONSTANTLY. It happens more often than you think whether it's within the confines of a law enforcement department, or corporations...

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Response to kjackson227 (Reply #145)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:50 PM

151. Tell us, Dr. Frist, why did he shoot a basketball coach?

Do you base this on your intimate knowledge of his psychiatric records, or based upon your personal interviews with the subject?

This language sounds like Randall Terry "I don't condone what Scott Roeder did, but I can certainly understand why he did it."

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #151)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:58 PM

154. Whatever...

I stand by everything I've said. Dorner was wrong in murdering those innocent people, but I think anyone who has been involved in or witnessed on-the-job racism/discrimination, and abuse of power by one's superior/manager can understand. Did Dorner handle the situation very, very badly? ABSOLUTELY. Should he be thrown in jail for life? Absolutely. But, when I read the manifesto ("IF" what he's written is true), and knowing the history of the LAPD, I'm not surprised that this turned out the way it did (especially if the person is mentally unstable). Employers have an obligation to follow the rules, and treat employees fairly.

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Response to kjackson227 (Reply #154)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:05 PM

155. Essentially, this is a disgruntled, mentally unstable employee living

out his revenge fantasy.

Appropriate filters as to his allegations should be firmly in place.

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Response to kjackson227 (Reply #145)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:03 PM

168. I don't understand him

Nothing that was done to him, compares with what he has done to others who cause him NO harm.

Unless he is so mentally unstable that he doesn't know right from wrong or lives in some reality brought on by psychosis, he is a murderer and has voided any sympathy in my mind the moment he took a life.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:58 PM

150. Dorner is a fucking sociopath.

 

I find your OP offensive.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:19 PM

165. I don't support him, if he did what was claimed he needs to be apprehended to face charges but...

the manhunt is a huge overreaction, which makes me wonder what else is going on.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:24 PM

166. This may be the most ill-titled post on DU ever. WTF.

Seriously. The man is a murderer, of innocent people. The entire mess is complicated, the LAPD is corrupt, yada yada. No matter how you spin it though, Dorner is a MURDERER.

Oh - and what's with all that psychology mumbo jumbo? Have you talked to Dorner? Do you know that he's not that different from any other human being, and that he's lost the ability to care?

Don't tell me I should try to understand him. Your post is attempt to make Dorner sound like a helpless victim. He is not.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:10 PM

170. I don't give a shit about this murderous asshole. I wish it wasn't an all-consuming news story.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:14 AM

172. I know very little about his backstory.

But the fact that he has apparently killed several innocent people makes me think that any employers who let him go couldn't have been too wrong to do so.

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Response to libertypirate (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:33 AM

175. What a total pile of hot steaming BS -

- and I beg to differ as he is most certainly " . . . different from any other human that becomes obsessed with their own failings and can't find away to rise above their pain." If everyone who feels they were wronged or laid off unjustly were to go on a killing spree, the US would be so littered with bodies that you wouldn't be able to drive down the road.

More than I cannot wrap my head around someone murdering innocents and attempting to justify it by saying they've been wronged by a third party, I cannot wrap my head around those so gullible and misguided that they would actually consider it a plausible excuse. If there was ever an argument for the need of improved mental health care in this country, this is it. For both the murdered and his excusers.

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