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Sat Feb 9, 2013, 01:44 PM

There is nothing "surgical" about a drone strike in populated areas

can at we at least let that meme go away?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-1_Predator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

The reaper can carry even more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper

11 replies, 1213 views

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Arrow 11 replies Author Time Post
Reply There is nothing "surgical" about a drone strike in populated areas (Original post)
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 OP
CountAllVotes Feb 2013 #1
bhikkhu Feb 2013 #2
Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #4
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #8
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #3
xchrom Feb 2013 #5
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #6
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #11
quinnox Feb 2013 #7
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #10
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #9

Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 01:54 PM

1. agree

Bunch of B.S. and EVERYONE knows this!

& recommend.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 01:55 PM

2. As compared to Grozny?





or Dresden?





or Tokyo?





You might say it is unfair comparisons, but the evolution of weaponry since the Vietnam war has been to avoid collateral damage, and to be able to wage war without destroying populations. That we are talking about hundreds of deaths now, rather than hundreds of thousands, does indicate some improvement.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:04 PM

4. That is not entirely accurate

"You might say it is unfair comparisons, but the evolution of weaponry since the Vietnam war has been to avoid collateral damage, and to be able to wage war without destroying populations. That we are talking about hundreds of deaths now, rather than hundreds of thousands, does indicate some improvement"

Fire bombing wasn't about accuracy or trying to take out one target as it was clearly about decimating a wide area. Carpet bombing was done due to the limitation of the time trying to hit a specific target.

Precison guided ammunitions were researched primarily to increase success rate, and reduce the amount time a pilot would be exposed to danger. The added benefit of reducing collateral damage wasn't the main motivation for the push of guided ammunitions.

But the Hellfire missile, is simply designed specifically to take out enemy armor, but obviously it is being used in other ways. It has a large amount of explosive power. So, if you are near the blast area you are in trouble despite it being a 'precise" weapon.



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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:11 PM

8. Our bombing in WWII was in part a form of psychological warfare and in part a

form of vengeance for Hitler's bombing of London and Great Britain and in part simply because we couldn't hit smaller targets with any precision.

A lot of that bombing strategy was to bring the people in German controlled areas to their knees, to devastate their infrastructure.

We had other means of doing that in Viet Nam. I don't know whether that is one of our goals in our current conflicts.

But remember "shock and awe." That had a dual purpose -- to frighten the Iraqi people into submission as well as to destroy strategic targets.

That is the way I as an amateur figure it worked.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 01:57 PM

3. But, we're sacrificing civilian lives for their own good and a just cause.

At least, that's the line taken by supporters of murder.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:07 PM

5. Du rec. Nt

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:14 PM

6. What would you like to see used instead?....

...a laser-guided bomb, perhaps? Or a dumb bomb with no guidance whatsoever? Both involve the use of munitions that are far larger and more powerful than those used on a drone. Laser-guided bombs and dumb bombs are usually 500 to 1000 lbs in size and generate up to a 90 foot blast radius with fragments thrown up to half a mile. Drone missiles use the Hellfire laser-guided missile using up to a 20 pound warhead depending on the target....much smaller, and comparatively speaking, much more surgical in nature.

Or how about a sniper team that has to get into and out of the area undetected? Or the insertion of a special forces/SEAL team that also has to get in and out of the area undetected? Those folks can kill the person they're after, but the risk of the mission failing and losing US casualties is very high.

What other alternatives would you use?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:21 PM

11. The controversy is not about whether we should use these weapons ever.

The controversy is about where, when and why we should use these weapons if we choose to do so.

I know someone who was child on the ground during bombing raids in Europe in WWII -- lots of bombing raids. The Germans, for example, knew when bombers were coming, when planes were approaching. They tried to get to basements, bomb shelters, hiding places maybe even in a ditch by the side of the road.

One of the problems with the drones is that while they make noise apparently, there is not enough warning to people to get out of the way. Mothers and fathers cannot hide their children from these weapons like they could the bombers in WWII.

Also, many maybe even most of the bombs in WWII were not aimed so much at specific individuals as at strategic sites -- railroad stations, factories especially munition factories.

These drones are targeted at specific people who, in many cases, are not at the moment engaged in combat. And apparently mistakes have been made in selecting targets in the sense that innocent people have been targeted. What is more, the criteria for determining who should or should not be a target is unclear.

What if these weapons should fall into the hands of a group like Al Qaeda? As I understand it, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to produce one. What if Al Qaeda targets, say a particular religious group, let's say Christian missionaries with a homemade drone?

Wouldn't we object? I would.

We need to know how our government is choosing targets and whether they exhaust all alternatives before killing people.

Are these drones really being used to attack people who are violent enemies or are they being used to silence loudmouths who are accused of inciting others to violence? Does our government recognize a difference or not?

These drones should not be used arbitrarily, but it appears from the vantage point of most of us that they are. That may be false, but we have no reason to believe otherwise.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:19 PM

7. Yep, some folks seem to think these things are intelligent or something and can tell friend from foe

 

And will only kill the bad people. Nope. They don't make any distinction between the innocent and the guilty within their blast radius.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:15 PM

10. Hey now...I've seen WALL-e... of course robots and computer programs can judge on sig--er

nonsight.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:14 PM

9. I remember watching an evening news program where the anchor

was marveling at how they can target "the third floor of a building in the middle of a street" and just take out that section. For a moment I thought she was high--and then I realized that "subtle" propaganda has now become an everyday part of life here in America--the land of the free until...

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