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Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:00 AM

Do you use Homeopathic "remedies"? Do you understand just what it is you are taking?

Several potency scales are in use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the centesimal or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. The centesimal scale was favored by Hahnemann for most of his life. A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original substance in 10,000 parts of the solution. A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 100−6=10−12. Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency, and more dilute substances are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting remedies. The end product is often so diluted that it is indistinguishable from the dilutant (pure water, sugar or alcohol).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions


Just HOW great the dilution factor really is can be difficult to conceptualize, so here is our friend, Richard Dawkins, to explain it in visual terms and in only 2 minutes, that anyone with a functioning brain can understand.



My question to the users of Homeopathic "remedies" is this:Now that you KNOW that there is no medicine at all in your "remedy", why would you waste your money on these products?

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Reply Do you use Homeopathic "remedies"? Do you understand just what it is you are taking? (Original post)
cleanhippie Feb 2013 OP
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cleanhippie Feb 2013 #3
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cleanhippie Feb 2013 #12
eShirl Feb 2013 #67
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #69
icymist Feb 2013 #215
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Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #2
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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:03 AM

1. People often buy things that statistically cause them more harm than good.

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Response to Robb (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:10 AM

3. Perhaps, but homeopathy is proven to be false.

To try and compare homeopathy and guns is ridiculous, and takes away from the problem of quacks and scams in the name of "medicine", IMO.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:17 AM

6. Applying common sense to either would save lives.

The benefits of both are regularly espoused by those firmly rooted in neither research nor reality.

I think the comparison is better than you'd care to admit.

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Response to Robb (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:22 AM

12. Maybe, but I want to bring attention to the scam that is Homepathy.

Guns are getting all the attention they can handle right now. There is no need to diminish the problems with homeopathy by diluting the issue with something so unrelated.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:36 AM

67. I appreciate your efforts to help educate people.

There seems to be a lot of confusion out there that "homeopathic" is another way of saying "natural" or "herbal."

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Response to eShirl (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:38 AM

69. Agreed, these terms are not interchangeable.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:39 PM

215. So your point is to decry what a 'sham and scam' homeopathy is.

So to you my question is: What is homeopathy?

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Response to icymist (Reply #215)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:27 PM

233. Really?

Did you click on either the link or the video in the OP?

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Response to icymist (Reply #215)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:08 PM

244. I'm not sure, But I am sure of what it isn't; science based medicine.

Most would call it quackery.

How do you define it?

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Response to icymist (Reply #215)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:39 PM

276. Homeopathic medicine is water.

Unless it is in pill form, then it is whatever pills are made out of, minus the active "ingredient."

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Response to icymist (Reply #215)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:14 PM

299. Look now. I don't really care what you guys think.

Homeopathy has been around for quite some time and there are people who believe in this wholeheartedly. I am not one to digress on others beliefs. Why there those who make it their life purpose to try and make other people, those whom you do not even know, (BTW) to come around to their own personal view of how they should live their lives is beyond me. To each, their own, I say! I'm not going to change you as much as you are not going to change me. Problem is that we need each other if we are going to win against those who hate us both. Let us respect each others way; that is unless you would prefere we get at each other over some differences that will NOT make much difference.

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Response to icymist (Reply #299)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:20 PM

300. +1!

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Response to icymist (Reply #299)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:45 PM

301. Respect? You want respect for ignoring reality? Really?

Homeopathy is pure, 100% bullshit. It is not science. It is not medicine. To believe that it is it to deny reality in favor of delusion.

While I will always respect your right to believe whatever you want, you have no right to expect anyone to respect your beliefs.

Respect is earned. Earned through actions. How can one expect to be respected when their actions actively deny reality?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #301)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:07 PM

302. umm. a belief in god defies reality. but I still respect people who believe in god.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #302)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:22 PM

303. I too, respect people who believe in a god.

I do not respect them for that belief, though. But I certainly have respect for people that also may believe in a god, because they have earned it through actions here in reality, not because of their belief in a god, or homeopathy.

And when a person tries to defend their beliefs (in this case homeopathy) in an attempt to get others to respect it, by ignoring reality, science, mathematics, and common sense, what respect must be given that?

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Response to eShirl (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:27 PM

126. Yes, I see that A LOT on here

Many natural remedies are legit and beneficial, but you get more health benefits from drinking a glass of water and eating an apple than homeo "cures."

And, people who do give it to their kids and pets should be ashamed of themselves.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:04 PM

242. That's what I always thought. Good to know.

Homeopathic doesn't make any sense. But I still will seek natural or herbal remedies whenever possible.

Thanks!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 01:02 AM

305. That's not true, as far as I know. Modern medicine is derived from homemade plant medications

in many instances.

Homeopathic treatment is not just mixtures of liquids. And has been used in countries around the world for centuries.

Have you ever had your nose run after eating something with a lot of cayenne pepper? That's a homeopathic treatment for sinus infection.

Another sinus treatment: Flushing your sinuses with salt water mixture. Very effective, esp to prevent sinus infections.

The best treatment, IMO, uses both modern medicine and alternative treatments.

My philosophy is...if it's not harmful or expensive, why not try it and see if it helps?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #305)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 05:33 AM

306. ...a LOT of cayenne pepper. Hardly homeopathic.

"salt water mixture"? Diluted 30 times? Just water.

And homeopathic "medicines" are not cheap. But at least they are not harmful. Except if you're going to visit a country where there is, say, malaria and you choose the homeopathic vaccine. This has actually happened.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #305)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 12:42 PM

308. I think that you may be mistaken on what "homeopathy" actually is.

It seems you may be conflating homeopathy with "natural" medicine. The OP has both the definition and a 2 minute video explanation of just what "homeopathy" is, and what you describe above is not homeopathy.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:04 AM

2. But But But... "Water has mem'ry!!!!"


This shit is on par with Religion as to how ridiculous it is.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:12 AM

4. Agreed.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:17 AM

7. "Molecular memory" has caused me more bruised foreheads than any other phrase

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:22 AM

10. A mean prank just came to my mind:

So, if water has a memory of medical substances it had contact with, what about poison?
Let's say, I pour a jar of poison into the ocean, let it stir for a few days and then extract two cups of water from that same spot.
(On a ratio of 1l vs 1km³ that's a dilution of 10^-12, which is fairly normal for homeopathy I guess.)

One cup for me, one for a believer of homeopathy.
Let's see, whether we survive.


EDIT:
Oh no, something horrible just came to my mind: If you take a piss in your shower...

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:57 AM

31. I was just going to write something about oceans and pissing ;)


Beat me to it!

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:59 AM

32. Aha! But that's not what homeopathy says.

"Like cures like!"

The homeopathic poison would cure you of poisoning.

What is the homeopathic agent to help you go to sleep?

Caffeine!

Like cures like.

Homeopathy. 18th century magical medicine today! It's nothing but pure quackery.

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Response to longship (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:20 AM

98. Not to mention the whole problem of "in some patients"

For example I am one of those people that can't take opoid medicines or I will sit in a lake (not a puddle) of my own sweat, so if my kids has a fever and is sweating I ought to give her some codeine to stop the sweats.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:16 AM

5. I've been studying the history of homeopathy in America - it's actually rather fascinating

There was a movement to ground homeopathy on more scientific footing back in the 1870s, but it wound up splitting the homeopathy school into two distinct camps: one that welcomed further scientific investigation and progress, and one that insisted on a "back to basics" approach with regard to Hahnemann's teachings.

Homeopaths were also the first to create a national medical society in America, beating the AMA to the punch by about two years.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:17 AM

8. Didn't the "pro-science" wing turn into osteopathy?

That I'm more sympathetic to.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:22 AM

11. Osteopathy grew out of the chriopractic movement, I think

The "pro-science" wing eventually got absorbed into the AMA and dispensed with homeopathy altogether. The last historic medical college to teach homeopathy stopped offering the classes in 1949.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:24 AM

13. It is quite fascinating. And the way people have been duped into believing it works is not unlike

prayer.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:21 AM

9. I'm always on the lookout for someone proposing a return to humorism.

Humorism (The Four Humors) corresponds to one of the traditional four temperaments of Hippocratic medicine black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:25 AM

14. We read Galen in college. It's actually kind of fascinating

It was amazing how much they could do (successful brain and eye surgery, for instance) while being so completely wrong. Also some weird changes of perspective: they considered the liver, rather than the heart, the seat of emotion. It sounds stupid to my ears, but then again the heart being the seat of emotion is kind of stupid too.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:59 PM

279. I'll do you one better: Trepanation

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Response to name not needed (Reply #279)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 06:51 AM

286. Heh-heh from Wiki:

"In 2000, two men from Cedar City, Utah were prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license after they performed a trepanation on an English woman to treat her chronic fatigue syndrome and depression."

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:27 AM

15. Anyone here used Arnica Montana to control swelling after surgery?

My oral surgeon recommended I use it and is convinced that it works. Apparently this is considered a homeopathic medicine. I am sceptical about this whole concept but took it anyway.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:31 AM

16. I think that would be considered "natural" medicine, not homeopathy.

While "natural" medicine certainly has its failings, some plants DO have evidence to support their efficacy. While I am unsure about the efficacy of Arnica Montana, a quick look at the Wiki on it seems to suggest that it is not homeopathy. YMMV.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:42 AM

19. There are homeopathic preparations of Arnica Montana.

I wouldn't use them, but they exist.

http://abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Arn

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Response to Heidi (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:45 AM

20. I would feel differently about an extract of AM, but any Homeopathic version is cause for alarm.

Again, only because a homeopathic version would contain no AM at all.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:46 AM

21. Exactly.

Good morning, cleanhippie.

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Response to Heidi (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:52 AM

25. Good morning to you, Heidi!



I hope your day is great! (And I mean that in all seriousness, not the DU "have a nice day" euphemism for "go fuck yourself.")

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #25)


Response to Heidi (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:59 AM

86. There are homeopathic preparations of dog shit...

http://provings.info/en/substanz/Excr-can

Yes, EXCREMENTUM CANINUM is homeopathic dog poop.



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:04 AM

91. What is that supposed to treat? Incontinence?

I'd be surprised they could be allowed to sell it if I didn't know it gets diluted so much there's nothing left of the original substance.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:01 PM

164. !

I don't do homeopathy, and find no science-based evidence to support it but -- like religion -- if it makes people feel better and doesn't hurt them or the rest of us, it's none of my business. (At the same time, though, I suspect a lot of people turn to homeopathy out of desperation and there are plenty of analogies of other methods of self-medication applied out of desperation, rather than true choice or science-based evidence. I won't judge.)

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Response to Heidi (Reply #164)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:36 PM

255. Agreed

Many people turn to homeopathy after all else does not work. And if it works it works. But all this anti-homeopathy, I don't understand. I'd like to see statistics on how many people die from homeopathy as compared to prescribed drugs.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:26 PM

252. You treat Republicanism with it?

Under the homeopathic theory that like cures like, if someone is so full of shit their eyes are brown...

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #252)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:58 PM

260. Nailed it!...nt

Sid

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Response to Heidi (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:03 PM

197. A Friend Used Only AM After Surgery

I don't know how she did it...all that pain, but she refused to take the morphine

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Response to otohara (Reply #197)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:39 PM

214. I had a coronary bypass two summers ago

and used only aspirin as opoids make me sweat like a pig. Refused anymore pain killers after the first night in the hospital.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:25 AM

54. I have used Arnica

and it worked extremely well with swelling and bruising after surgery. I also bruise very easily, so I buy Arnica Gel, and use that on my bruises, well they definitely heal much quicker..

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #54)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:47 PM

181. Do you have a double blind study to support the claim

that your bruises heal quicker.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #181)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:58 PM

188. Nope, sorry..

All I have is my eyes... Is that not good enough?

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #188)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:00 PM

192. Not even remotely

It's double blind for a reason. You see what you want to see. Confirmation bias.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #192)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:04 PM

199. You obviously need a blind study

to make you feel better in your position. I don't.. Isn't it a wonderful thing when people have free will to do what they want with their bodies??

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #199)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:17 PM

208. This is about Science

and the complete lack of it in our Society. I want our children to become smarter and better educated. People who wish to push Big WooWoo are in fact a huge road block to achieving that goal. If you feel you don't need Science just do me a favor and promise me you will not get involved in Society at large.

People pushing CAM and Creationism are dumbing down our Society.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #208)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:48 PM

258. What exactly do you mean

by "promise you to not get involved in society at large"? Are you saying to drop dead? That is what it sounds like.. I'm not pushing homeopathy on anyone, unlike you, I don't try to pressure others into agreeing with me..

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #258)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:03 PM

262. I did not mean like that

I mean like the creationist pushing for the bible in school. I want supporters of Homeopathy to promise they will keep that junk out of our schools and not get upset if science programs inform kids that water does not have memory and ultra dilutions of compounds don't do anything and that like cure like is a logical fallacy.

I think schools should teach critical reasoning and teach kids about scams. Will CAM zealots get pissed at such programs?

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #188)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:07 PM

227. no

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:42 PM

177. I've used it on my foot

The podiatrist recommended it for my severe plantar fasciitis. It's an OTC ointment, and given the ingredients (various waxes. mostly) I think the mild massaging after the exercises prescribed worked about as well as the arnica. It did smell nice, though.

Don't underestimate the placebo effect, though: your body is going to try to heal itself if it can, and, according to an article I read in Science a few years ago, placebos are getting a lot more effective these days!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:51 PM

278. Try it- you might be surprised!

A nurse friend turned us on to it about twenty years ago and since then i keep the pills & ointment in my purse at all times. For physical trauma, swelling &/or bruising is is a godsend. I have shared this with many and they are always astonished and thankful.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #15)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 06:58 AM

288. I use arnica

a topical gel on bruises. It's an actual herbal medication (at least the one I use).

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:36 AM

17. I use homeopathetic eye drops.

Similasin. The "active" ingredient is Bella Donna, an opiate. Obviously it must be pretty diluted because it is sold over the counter. And it seems to work. Besides, I'd rather use it that dropping chemical drops in my eyes.

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Response to Atman (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:41 AM

18. Could you not get the same result from using a saline solution instead?

It would appear that saline is all that is in Similasin, so if a bottle of saline is available at the store cheaper than your Homeopathic "remedy", would you choose that instead? Why or why not?


The fact that the "opiate" is diluted so low as to be available OTC, should raise flags with the consumer that he/she is not really getting what they think they are. Agree?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:48 AM

23. I don't deny that it seems goofy.

I'm not into homeopathy, and the stuff is crazy expensive ($9 for a little bottle), but it feels good a relieves my dry eyes. I did notice that they've changed the name of it since I started using it...it used to be called Redness Relief, now it's just Dry Eyes. There's probably nothing in it to actually relieve redness, although that is still listed as a benefit on the label. I still prefer it to products like Visine full of chemical preservatives.

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Response to Atman (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:55 AM

28. I agree with your disdain of chemicals in Visine.

I urge you to try some plain saline, available in any store with the other OTC meds. It will save you a ton of cash!

Good luck.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:02 AM

35. you are now giving medical advice

Cut it out. The poster you are responding to stated they like the product. Your "opinion" is just as full of crap as the people you are making fun of, unless you have some sort of medical credentials specifically specializing in eyes.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #35)


Response to cleanhippie (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:13 AM

44. Not only have I been at DU since almost

the beginning, my wife and I have met many longstanding DUers and the admin in person in DU meetups.

I doubt anyone here would call me a "troll."

However, you are trolling for a little ego boost today. I hope you get it.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #44)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:15 AM

48. Who cares how long you have been here or who you know.

I never called you a troll, but you are trolling me. Does that make you a troll? maybe, maybe not. I guess that is up to you and your actions.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:24 AM

53. you deleted it, but you accused me of "trolling"

thereby implying I am a "troll." I care. Many people care. However, this thread is just an ego boost to you. It has zero to do with your faux concern for "public health," and a strong desire to be "right."

And that's all this whole thread is: one circle jerk for "skeptics."

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #53)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

59. No, you made an inference, I implied no such thing.

Anyway, you are being ridiculous, so I'm done with you.

Have a nice day.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:33 AM

63. You wrote "go troll another thread." Of course you are "done."

I am not a user, or believer in homeopathic remedies, NOR do I believe in telling adults how to spend their money, or how to live when it doesn't affect me in the least.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:34 AM

65. Good for you! Thank you for your opinion, I appreciate it.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #53)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:41 AM

73. +1

 

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:36 AM

99. Discussing the relative merits of OTC products is not

"giving medical advice". It in no way constitutes the practice of medicine.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #99)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:47 AM

105. He knows that. Most would recognize ridiculous comments like that for what they are.

Trolling.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #105)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:52 AM

108. ahhhh there's that word again

that you denied using earlier.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #108)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:56 AM

112. Never denied using the word "trolling."

I also never called you a troll.
Project elsewhere.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #112)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:59 AM

116. you most certainly did. The problem is that you did not delete

it fast enough for me to miss it.

Or deleted it after you were called on it. Personally, I think you are cowardly....which is why you start these passive aggresive threads that border on bullying. Typical...take it right to the line...and then stop before your threads get deleted...and make use of your silly "waving emoticons" to "show that you are just a really really nice person."

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #116)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:04 PM

118. Yawn.

You found my comment to be implying that I called you a troll. I deleted it. What more do you want?

You behavior, OTOH, fits the definition of the word "trolling."

1. trolling

Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.
Guy: "I just found the coolest ninja pencil in existence."
Other Guy: "I just found the most retarded thread in existence."


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling


So, at this point, you can thank me for retracting the comment where you felt I called you a troll, or you can continue to behave in a manner that fits the definition above.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #99)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:56 AM

113. You are aware as a Feline Veterinarian that the term "medical advice"

is a grey area as defined by law, correct? The OP wasn't discussing "merits," s/he was implying knowledge of OTC eye drops. Perhaps you should be more concerned with their degrees, or area of expertise.

I AM aware of how you FEEL about homeopathy where animal husbandry is concerned; however there are veterinarians with the same degree that you have, the same science undergrad who feel differently. We choose to not use these products, however, if others do....unless it is one of your feline patients, it is frankly none of your business.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #113)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:07 PM

120. Ok, thank you for your concern.

It is duly noted.

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Response to Atman (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:54 AM

26. You would rather drop a chemical in your eye than drop a chemical in your eye?

I am confused.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:01 AM

34. What is confusing you?

Saline solution relieves my dry eyes. The nasty stuff in Visine is totally different.

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Response to Atman (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:12 AM

42. Mercurius sublimatus in similason dry eyes remedy

From their own website http://similasanusa.com/ingredients.

Again you are dropping chemicals into your eyes because you don't want to drop chemicals into your eyes.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:27 AM

56. Are you reading the same website I am?

Their "active" ingredients are diluted to the level described by Dawkins in the video above. Do you understand just how diluted that is? If you watched his demonstration, and accept the principles of basic mathematics, then there are no chemicals in those eye drops. None at all.


How our products work

Similasan products stimulate the body to heal itself by utilizing "microdilutions" of the 100% Natural Active Ingredients. This system of medicine is known as homeopathy.

In the production of Similasan homeopathic medicines, our 100% Natural Active Ingredients (originating from mineral, plants or animals) undergo a process of serial dilution. This complex terminology simply means that we create a very weak dilution, or a microdilution of the ingredient. Technically, a solution’s concentration is represented by an "X." For example, an ingredient diluted to the level of 6X contains 0.0000001% of the active ingredient. This homeopathic mode of action is similar in theory to a conventional allergy or flu shot, yet the 100% Natural Active Ingredients in homeopathic products are much more dilute, and are safe for all ages.
http://www.similasanusa.com/about-homeopathy

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:39 AM

70. Yeah, that was kind of my point.

It is so diluted as to be virtually non-existent. Unlike Visine. I have dry eyes, and these drops feel good. I make no assumption that the homeopathy does anything, but they relieve the dryness and they're not Visine. I don't otherwise "subscribe" to the theory of homeopathy. I just happen to like this particular product.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:46 AM

76. I have a degree in biology

I know full well what bullshit Homeopathy is.

I was pointing out the silliness of it all but focusing on the misconception people have with the word "chemical".

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:48 AM

78. Ahh, I see.

Technically, wouldn't saline be considered a "chemical"? Was that your point?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #78)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:57 AM

85. The point is

that I find it strange and mildly amusing when people put "natural shit" in or on their bodies and then in the next breath rant about "chemicals".

"natural shit" = "chemicals"

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #85)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:42 AM

102. I agree, but don't you think people are implying a slightly different meaning?

You make a good point, but I think it may be splitting hairs.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #85)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:37 PM

140. You Are Much Nicer

then I am. I find this phenomenon ridiculous and just dumb. People never seem to get the point that a chemical grown in the ground is no less a chemical than one grown in a test tube.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

58. What do you care

if he gets relief from using them? Honestly? How does it impact your life?

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:53 AM

83. Homeopathy is not just some innocent form of CAM

My local drug stores are starting to sell more and more of these bullshit concoctions and it is high time the FDA stepped in and took these dangerous products of the shelves.

People are actually buying these crap products for children and putting their health, and in some cases lives, in danger. Running to CVS and getting some snake oil homeopathic remedy for a sick child instead of taking them to a doctor is stupid and these money hungry companies that knowingly sell these snake oil concoctions should be put out of business.

Products claiming to be medicines should not be on shelves unless they have had their efficacy proven.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #83)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:01 AM

88. So everything that is FDA approved

is safe?

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #88)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:03 AM

90. bzzzzt... wrong answer

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #90)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:06 AM

92. Yea, way to avoid the question..

If people get relief from homeopathic remedies, and aren't taking them to treat major illness, then it isn't a problem.. Also, maybe you should just worry about what you put in your body, and I will worry about what I put in mine..

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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:13 AM

95. It wasn't a true question

As I tell my kids "but daddy timmy did it too" is not an excuse.

Companies selling products that do nothing at all encouraging people to make unwise decisions for their children, I believe the FDA has a right to step in and put those companies out of business.



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Response to bama_blue_dot (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:49 AM

107. Your "question" is ridiculous and deserves nothing more than what it got.

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Response to Atman (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:20 AM

51. I didn't realize that diluted opiates weren't chemicals

silly me.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:22 AM

52. To be fair, in a homeopathic application, there would be no chemicals at all.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #52)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:49 AM

80. Water's a chemical in itself...

Known for its solvent properties and clean taste.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #80)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:41 AM

101. Very true!

You got me on a technicality!


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Response to derby378 (Reply #80)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:31 AM

316. It also rots pipes and fish make love in it. That's why I won't drink it or put it in my eyes.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #316)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:09 AM

317. Can I suggest a little lemon? (n/t)

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:47 AM

22. What difference does it make to you?

We don't use homeopathic medicines, but to constantly start threads like this, or comment on them shows some sort of weird obsession. Frankly, people who use them are not harming you, so what is the issue?

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:50 AM

24. I always wait for the next shoe....

"Homeopathic medicines suck THEREFORE mercury in medicine is good for you." or something.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:56 AM

29. No kidding...we are the two biggest skeptics we know

But, we don't obsess, care, or put down other people's choices in terms of medicine, religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs or whatever.

These threads are annoying.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:13 AM

45. You think homeopathic medicines are less likely to use mercury?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #45)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:17 AM

49. Well, they are less likely to use ANYTHING at all.

Other than water, that is.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:57 AM

30. Agreed.

Why does the OP care how others spend their money? These kinds of things come across to me as a weird need to prove that they're smart and others are dumb.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:59 AM

33. Yep...the language, tone etc. just screams

"I need to be superior to something or someone today."

Christ, I suppose it's a better hobby than assault rifle shooting, but my god, it's annoying.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:05 AM

37. I know. What's the harm?

Whats the harm? <== Here it is.

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Response to longship (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:06 PM

226. Adults are free to choose which treatment to use.

And pay the price with the outcomes. In the case of parents who refuse to get conventional and generally accepted medical treatment for their children, I believe there are laws that govern that and those people should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Look, I don't believe in any of that homeopathic business myself, but I have no need to go around bragging about how smart I am and how dumb others are. It's the inherent arrogance that grates on me.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #226)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:35 PM

265. Arrogance?

Either it works or it doesn't, and homeopathy demonstrably does not and cannot work.

So why is it even a choice when any reasonable person would conclude that it is unethical to market it at all, let alone as a cure for cancer, or whatever.

It's not arrogant to take that position, it's just good policy.

The people making and selling homeopathy are harming people, sometimes to their death, and people call it arrogance to oppose that?

Some would call that arrogance.
But I won't do that, because I want to remain respectable on these forums.

In an ethical society should homeopathy be marketed for any health measure?

The inescapable conclusion is that the science says a resounding and unequivocal No!

Thanks for your post.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:12 AM

43. It can be scary when one of your family members choses homeopathic over traditional medicine

After my mother died of breast cancer my father became very skeptical of traditional medicine. Also, he is very poor so it can be difficult for him to afford to go to the doctor when he needs to. So, he relies on things he finds on the internet. Right now he's onto some kind of 31-day cancer cure crap. He thinks he may have a lump in his breast and instead of going to get it checked out by a doctor he just goes on the internet and finds a "cure". They always put a disclaimer on the first page about how it's not meant to constitute medical advise, that the individual should still seek that advise of a medical doctor, and that you assume the risk when using their program. Bastards. They tell you they can cure cancer then tell you, you assume all the risk so they can't be sued.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:15 AM

46. And that is incredibly sad. However, his decision

to be a grownup and do whatever he feels comfortable with affects the OP in no way. Nor myself or my family- I hope you guys are OK-- I certainly have empathy for you. As I wrote, we don't use it.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:54 AM

109. Incorrect

When his stage 1 cancer progresses to stag 3 and he has to finally see the doctor, your tax money is going to pay for the excess cost involved in fixing the poor healthcare choice.

Even granting you the argument that he can do as he pleases, the companies or websites promoting nonsense DO NOT have the right to do so and should be shut down and in many cases, criminally prosecuted.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #109)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:43 PM

143. Lots of people "use my tax money" (god, that is

SO republican, are you not slightly embarrassed?) because they waited too long to go to the Dr. Free will...and that is exactly why we need a single payer system, which I have been advocating for years.

Many people like homeopathy-- your "nonsense" is somebody else's idea of "good medicine."

And again, I have stated this repeatedly, but will for you also: I don't believe in it, or use it.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #143)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

149. We only have so much money to use and can't afford to waste it on crap

My problem is with allowing snake oil salesmen to market what they know is crap.

YOU can put whatever crap YOU want to in YOUR body. You can not package it up and lie to other people about what is does.

I also support single payer but that has nothing to do with allowing companies to lie about products or engage in down right malpractice.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #149)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:26 PM

173. "WE only have so much money...."

Interesting choice of words, Mattbaggins. Your argument would make better sense on a thread about smoking, alcohol, etc. I doubt the homeopathy users are going to bankrupt "us."

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #173)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:37 PM

176. You have no interest in an honest assessment of Homeopathy

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #176)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:46 PM

180. really. My wife was a paramedic, and is now a librarian

and I have repeatedly written that we never use it, nor believe in it.

Perhaps you have no interest in honestly minding your own business, and letting others live freely as long as they are not harming you.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #180)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:53 PM

183. Unlike you I support the role of the FDA

I want standards and believe that manufacturers ought to be prohibited from lying to consumers. You seem to be a Republican of the worst kind with the only rule being caveat emptor.

Corporations should be allowed to lie all they want and bamboozle if they choose with out fear of government regulation. Profits uber alles eh.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #183)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:59 PM

190. and how in the world did you get that

from anything I have written? Please point out where I said that I do not "support the role of the FDA." Please. Any of my posts. Go back 10 years. Perhaps you could quit making things up.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #190)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:02 PM

194. You were making things up

Thought maybe it was a game and decided to play along.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #194)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:16 PM

207. I haven't made anything up. I have stated repeatedly

that homeopathy is generally harmless, and asked why the same OP posts about it over and over. I will state AGAIN: I do not use, nor believe in these products. However, I find these threads making fun of people who do belittling and obnoxious.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #207)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:20 PM

209. Don't read them then

I make fun of creationists, flat earthers and proponents of big woo. No plans on stopping.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #143)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:52 PM

154. +1

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:18 PM

264. How do people make decisions without information?

People openly discussing topics like the OP is a big part of how information gets "out there" for others to have it as part of their decision making process.

It's ridiculous to think that expressing opinions like the OP is some sort of horrible infringement on.... well, what exactly? A person's supposed "right" to base decisions only on information (or disinformation) they already possess or actively seek out, perhaps without ever having stumbled across a reason to seek out more information because so many people around them were following a ridiculous standard of politeness or non-interference by keeping their opinions to themselves"?

What do you recommend? A world where all non-specialists keep their opinions to themselves, and where specialists keep their advice and knowledge to themselves until people actively seek it out? And this world would the proper world where people's decision are "their own"?

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:02 PM

309. I don't care how people spend their money. I do care that ignorant people are being scammed.

I care that an entire industry has been built upon keeping people ignorant, and in the process, are harming evereyone. Is that something you approve of?

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:05 AM

36. "Frankly, people who use them are not harming you, so what is the issue? "

Well, that is just not true. Those that use homeopathy instead of actual medicine ARE harming me. Perhaps a look at Herd Immunity can show you how homeopathy is harmful.

Persons taking homeopathic "remedies" for the flu also harm me (and you).

Homeopathy is a scam, targets the ignorant, and is harmful to society in many ways. That is the issue.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:10 AM

38. at least two of us here knew you were going to bring up vaccines

There are many health professionals not taking the flu vaccine either; there is ZERO correlation between people who go to the drug store and get some eye drops because they like them, and making decisions on vaccines. Get over yourself; you just wanted to be "right" about something today for some reason.

If you are so worried about the flu, get your own vaccine and wash your hands. "Herd health," yes...I understand it as well as you do, but I also understand the ONLY person you can control is yourself and your immediate environment. DU is full of people with degrees, advanced degrees, and many people that are smarter than you or I. You aren't "educating" anyone here.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:12 AM

41. Ok. Thank you for your opinion.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

133. Lying about medical properties of your product is inherently harmful.

Which is why that sort of shit is illegal in this country... except for suitably sciencey-sounding woo, apparently.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #133)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:54 PM

184. Labeling is required on all the packages

Why are you so uncomfortable with people who think differently than you do in cases that cannot possibly harm you? Homeopathy users are no more of a danger to you than any other part of the population. They are no more likely to "make you sick," than any other person walking around with a contagious disease....and I suspect many of them are so attuned to their bodies and illnesses that they are MORE likely to stay home if something is "wrong," or if they have a fever.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #184)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:03 PM

196. Because I hate the propagation of stupidity in our society

I regard stupid people as inherently dangerous to my well being, because these motherfuckers vote. If you believe that distilled water gains super medical properties if you "activate" it by smacking it, then who knows what other bullshit you believe in? What sort of bullshit do you advocate, defend, and promote, if you think water can fucking cure blindness? 'Cause you are one gullible motherfucker if you buy that, and you are a weak point for con men and quacks to exploit; you are an enabler of intellectual parasites.

Take a number in the line behind creationists and climate denialists, please.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #196)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:11 PM

202. OK

And I hate that people can't choose their battles. I haven't seen any climate change deniers or creationists on DU. The purpose of this thread is strictly to make fun of a small group of people on DU. The OP "claims" like you, that s/he wants to "educate" people. However, most of the people that use these products (and I am not one) have given up trying to explain why like like a product, and have been ridiculed into silence. People like the OP are just driving liberals further away from even engaging in conversation. As "battles" against stupidity go...maybe you should choose more wisely. This one isn't hurting you in the least.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #202)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:29 PM

212. There's a world beyond DU

I'm not here to "educate." If you don't know that water does not cure every malady under the sun through some sort of Thetan / Phlogiston combination or what the fuck ever, then you are frankly ineducable. If someone points out that the product you use is just water and your response is something other than "No shit? I've been ripped off!" then there is no hope for you.

If people have been "ridiculed into silence" over this, good! Maybe there's some fucking sense in the world after all.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #212)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 11:41 AM

292. I think we should realize the same is true of baptism (and holy water if catholic)

there is also no sky daddy that can cure you by invocation through prayer, these far more silly folk should be ridiculed out of existence as well, they believe in magic cures, magic beings, some even refuse to allow their children blood transfusions when they are told that refusal will kill them.

Do you go around screaming about these people or publicly embarrassing them? Or is homeopathy, silly tho it may be, just not silly enough to be respected as a personal belief that we in this country tolerate, or if it is not quite silly enough to be tolerated like religion, is it somehow more harmful to you or others than religion perhaps?

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #292)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 12:27 AM

304. What in the world makes you think I draw an exception for religion?

Do I go about embarrassing people who try to pray their child's bone cancer away? Yes, but only because it's illegal to beat them with sacks of gravel.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #196)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:12 PM

204. You are on the money

It comes down to our very education system. Our country should stay mired in ignorance so as not to offend people with a so call "alternate viewpoint". Should we not point out the fact that the earth is round simply because believing it to be flat "doesn't hurt anyone"?

Should we teach kids basic critical skills to avoid scams?
Should we have media classes where kids learn how advertising works?
Should we have classes that teach kids about financing and how credit works?
Should we teach kids how to spot confidence scammers?

I have the feeling Jan there would be pissed if we taught kids in school why CAM practices are nonsense and why they should be avoided? That whole industry would be frothing at the mouth if science teachers tried to educate kids that "water doesn't have a memory". I can hear it now; "Teach the controversy"

It boggles the mind to see people defend ignorance and malpractice.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:01 PM

240. It's not a matter of not harming people personally.

Homeopathy is pseudo-scientific and fraudulent. Anything that claims to have a medical benefit and doesn't is a scam that should be exposed.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #240)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 11:38 AM

291. And fake "medications" *do* harm people, anyway.

That should matter to any intelligent, decent people.

Telling someone to drink magical memory water to cure an infection or cancer or what-not is not in the least okay, and neither is defending people who profit from that.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:08 PM

271. It's not harming you that cleanhippie keeps bring this up, so what's the issue?

What difference does it make to you?

Frankly, people who use them are not harming you, so what is the issue?
Are you truly that myopic? I personally know several people whose illnesses and injuries have worsened--fatally so, in at least one case--because those people believed the idiotic claims of homeopathic hawkers. If they'd undergone actual medical treatment, there is every indication that they would have enjoyed superior recoveries.


If each anti-homeopathy thread could result in even one person rejecting that bullshit snakeoil nonsense, then it's worth it.


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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:55 AM

27. No, I use herbs and nutrition. I went to a homeopath once, when I was like 22, and

he prescribed a solution with gold in it. Gold? Are you kidding me?

No way was I gonna put that in my body.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:15 AM

47. Why not? Gold isn't going to hurt you

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Response to Zorra (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:40 AM

100. You'd be safe. Homeopathic gold solution is like all other

homeopathic remedies. It only contains water.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #100)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:31 PM

128. hahahahaha

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:18 AM

50. So to keep things interesting (since some posters don't want you to talk about this)...

...how would you feel about homeopathic medicines delivered by DRONE?

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Response to randome (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:08 PM

228. LOL (n/t)

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:26 AM

55. Capsasin/Cayenne pep. diluted with cold cream for the feets. Apply 3X in 1 hour with socks. ahhhhh.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:28 AM

57. Do you make that yourself?

What are your proportions?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #57)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

60. Yes. 1 teaspoon red pep to 1 small jar ponds cold cream (not the big un.) :)

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #60)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:32 AM

61. Sounds interesting. Ill give it a try.

I'm on my feet all day, I usually soak them in Epsom salts, but I will try your preparation.

Thanks!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #61)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:33 AM

62. Removes inflamation. Careful with the insteps, they are more sensative.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #60)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

129. Thank you for this

I will try this on my joints. RA is attacking me. I refuse to use the poisons (methotrexate) that the Dr's keep trying to get me to take.

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Response to me b zola (Reply #129)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 05:20 AM

281. You are welcome dearie.

Just be careful, not to much pepper.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:34 AM

64. That doesn't sound like a homeopathic "medicine" to me.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #64)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:35 AM

66. Whatever.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #66)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:38 AM

68. Just wondering why it's posted in a thread about homeopathy?

Whatever? Whatever.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #68)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:40 AM

71. Keep wondering then. Why are you shitting on this thread?

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #71)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:41 AM

72. I'm not. Why are you shitting on me?

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Response to eShirl (Reply #72)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:43 AM

75. If you mix up some crap yourself and you can't by it, it's homeopathic by my definition and you

arbitrarily attack my definition, I defend it and I'm shitting on "you." WTF.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:48 AM

79. I know. WTF.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:11 PM

121. Maybe a less controversial word for what you prepared would be "home remedy", not homeopathic?

For me, that is a clear distinction between the two.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:30 PM

235. WTF, indeed, you are arguing because you cannot be bothered to learn what homeopathy means....?

You versus a Thread (exasperatedly): "And by 'door' I mean something that has four tires and an engine! Why are you so dense? Just go outside, put the suitcase in the door's trunk and quite arguing with me!"

Thread: "Wow. This one is bizarre."

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Response to xocet (Reply #235)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 05:27 AM

282. You probably won't want to sell cars for a living then. What? I have to look up homeopathic to

satisfy an extracurricular requirement for this thread that was not noted. Hmmmf.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #282)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 06:15 AM

284. My problem isn't with you, or with people who buy & use homeo products knowing what they're buying.

I don't see many ardent proponents of homeopathy discouraging the general public from thinking homeopathy is just another name for natural or herbal. Especially, now that the homeopathic remedies industry appears to be going mainstream (Walgreens brand?? is Walmart far behind?), I worry about people like my very elderly parents getting duped out of their money because they think it's just another OTC remedy like they've been buying at the drugstore all their lives.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #284)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 11:44 AM

294. I see.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #282)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 07:56 AM

289. No, what you have to do is read the OP - the definition is there

Really, if all you do is read the title, leap in with your own, incorrect, definition of 'homeopathic', and then accuse someone who corrects you of 'shitting on the thread', your posts in the thread are a waste of time and space. Just go back and read the OP.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #289)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 11:47 AM

295. I did and I dilute red pepper with cold cream. I don't call myself walgreens. So there is an

ignore feature. I took away from the OP what was offered, and the time used for posting was mine, not yours.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #282)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:28 PM

313. If you prefer your ignorance, please continue. n/t

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Response to xocet (Reply #313)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:22 AM

314. You apparently prefer being annoyed. Have at it pal. I can help you if you like. Snort

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #66)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 01:51 PM

296. He's actually right. That's a home remedy, not homeopathy.

Homeopathic "treatments" have to be prepared a certain way, and then super diluted in water. It's based on the concept that water has a "memory."

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:43 AM

74. You know that feeling in your throat you get just before a cold?

I have used homeopathic tinctures as soon as I sensed this for the last many years and stopped the disease immediately.
Someone once said "whatever gets you through the night".
These tinctures are extracts of medicinal herbs and not as show in your video.

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Response to randr (Reply #74)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:46 AM

77. A tincture is not the same thing as a homeopathic "remedy."

I am happy that you find relief, but if I am reading you correctly, what you took was not homeopathy. Can you identify the product so I can look at it myself?

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Response to randr (Reply #74)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

89. Did you test this to make sure you were not just experiencing

a regression toward the mean?

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Response to randr (Reply #74)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:59 PM

222. That proves nothing.

It used to be that whenever I got that feeling, it would turn into a cold. A few years ago, after I moved to a very dry environment, things changed. I would get a sore throat and be convinced I had caught a cold, but the sore throat would go away after a day or two. By now, this has happened at least ten times, and yet I'm still not used to it. I still think I will get a cold. I haven't had a cold in close to two years. And yet I have been doing absolutely nothing. I don't take bogus pills, nor any other sort of substance that is supposed to have "magical" properties.

Had I not been a scientist, I might have believed the nonsense about homeopathic medicines and taken them. Had I done so, I would have been convinced, as you are, that the stuff I was taking was curing my colds.

The bottom line is this: unless something is shown in repeated double-blind studies, you simply cannot know that it is true. No amount of personal experience is equivalent to the scientific method.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:52 AM

81. The amount of ignorance on this thread is astonishing to me

I have been using homeopathy for over 30 years and have had extraordinary results many times. Unless you have actually used it appropriately, please refrain from these vapid attacks. Go out and buy some Arnica in a 30c potency and keep it on hand. Then the next time you bang yourself or hit your head or fall down, chew up a few of the pills in an empty mouth (no food or drink for several minutes after). Unless you have a broken bone or a twisted tendon, you will not hurt after about 10 minutes. If it is a bad bang you may need a second dose, maybe 20 minutes later. But if you take it right away, you will have no bruise, no pain and no swelling. If is great if you have kids who are forever banging themselves. It is great immediately after any surgery to prevent swelling. It is useful after a concussion to diminish brain swelling. There are lots of remedies, but you have to know how to use them and what they can and can't do.

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:56 AM

84. Thank you..

I have used some homeopathic remedies for my anxiety, and it helps me.. Also, when I had horrible heartburn during my pregnancy, I took Nux Vomica, and it always got rid of it. I wouldn't be taking homeopathic medicine if I had a serious disease, but for common ailments, there is no harm in doing so..

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:09 AM

93. This is exactly why homeopathy should be declared illegal

Suggesting a 30c dilution of something for a concussion.

Really.

30C would be 60x which is well beyond Avogadro's limit.

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:17 AM

96. You do know that in a 30C potency, there's not a single molecule left in the solution?...

A 30C dillution is something diluted 100^30 times.

That's put 10ml of solution into a litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. Then take 10ml of that solution, and put it into another litre of water, and shake it up. (If I've done it right, that's 30 x 1% dilutions)

That's the equivalent of one ml of "stuff" in 10^60 ml of water. 10^60 ml of water would fill a cube ~ 1,000,000,000,000,000 km on each side, give or take an order of magnitude or 2. I'm too lazy to actually do the calculations. Needless to say, the chances of you actually getting a single molecule of whatver you think you're buying is almost 0.

You would have to give two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions#30C:_1_ml_in_1.2C191.2C016_cubic_light_years)

You're paying money for sugar water.

Sid

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:44 AM

103. Wow. While ignoring the basic laws of mathematics, you accuse others of being ignorant.

I am happy you have found good results.


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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:48 AM

106. I agree - I use homepathy

If you have never tried homeopathy, why put it down so vehemently. Next time you have nausea, you might try Nux Vomica, a homeopathic for indigestion and nausea; it's mind blowing how quickly it works. My doc, who is a very respected allergy doc in my state, told me if I get bitten by a bee or insect, take Apis Mell and 1000 mg of buffered vic c within the first minute and the reaction will stop - and it works big time.





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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:55 AM

110. "If you have never tried homeopathy, why put it down so vehemently." Because it is bunk bullshit.

Every singly study conducted to test the efficacy of homeopathic "remedies" has found that they work no better than, and in most cases, worse than placebo. EVERY. SINGLE. STUDY.


A simple google search for NV shows that as a homeopathic "remedy", it is diluted to the same degree as demonstrated by Dawkins in the video above.

Are you grasping the mathematics of the dilution? If you are, how can you possibly claim that anything that doesn't contain even a single molecule of the "ingredient" could have any possible effect?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:23 PM

125. Works big time at what?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:34 PM

135. I drink a Reed's Ginger Reed

Or chew a ginger chew, because all water will do is upset my stomach.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:16 PM

169. Who is this Doctor?

If they are a well known doctor in their field they should have no problem having their name published so we could research them?

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

132. Well, water IS hydrating, and the placebo effect is real

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:48 PM

219. Please look at the evidence before your favoured treatments kill again

Many studies have found homeopathic remedies have exactly the same effect as a placebo. No amount of succussion of trituration will change the fact that there is no active ingredient in the products you so blithely recommend.

If you persist in saying that "water has a memory" please identify why it cannot remember the urine or the feces with which it has been in contact. Then explain how water can remember as it is a fluid and has no permanent structure.

Then explain to the relatives of Jacqueline Alderslade why the anti-asthma preparation she was given did not prevent her from dying from an asthma attack.

Explain how Isabella Denley died from epilepsy whilst she was taking homeopathic anti-epileptic preparations.

Explain to Paul Howie's wife how it was that the treatable tumour in his neck killed him despite his homeopath assuring him that only homeopathy was necessary.

Explain to Christopher Lemonius how the homeopathic remedies he was prescribed failed to stop his sore throat becoming a severe infection and abcess.

Explain to Katie Ross how her eminently treatable colitis became so bad that her colon had to be removed despite the homeopathic "medicines" she was given.

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:45 PM

267. I buy my arnica in a cream and rub it on my boo's ....

and it works a lot better than those other silly over the counter traditional creams ...

I have also used homeopathy in many other various ways for many ailments and find some work and some do not, very similar to traditional medicine ...

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Response to Nancy Waterman (Reply #81)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:00 PM

297. Take these things into consideration:

- Most of the time, these effects are by placebo.

- You're drinking a substance that is practically pure water, because it's been diluted so many times.

- A lot of things, especially home remedies, are labeled "homeopathic" when they aren't. If it's not diluted water claiming to have the 'memory' of a 'like-substance,' then it's not homeopathic.

- There's no scientific evidence that homeopathy works, and most scientists will not even study its effects.

- On the "not using it correctly" statement, that's actually further evidence that homeopathy is junk science. For almost every form of fakery - be it "psychic readings," homeopathy, or faith-healers, the blame is always shifted from to those that are trying to get it to work. If homeopathy were real science, you wouldn't need to have special techniques to get it to work - it would just work. The real reason that homeopathy works for some and not for others is a combination of the placebo effect and the fact that it's basically purified water.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:53 AM

82. Also, many, many, many people get Homeopathic mixed up with Naturopathic...

and don't realize the difference. There is value to some Naturopathic products - many of our modern day pharmaceuticals are derived from natural sources.

There is no value, none, to any homeopathic product. With homeopathy, there's not there, threre.





Thank you very much for making this post.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #82)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:01 AM

87. And the defenders appear in 3 - 2 - 1

Good graphic Sid.
Thanks.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #82)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:34 PM

136. Thank you!!

I use alternative remedies sometimes. Black cohosh/Remifemin for hot flashes. MidNite (Valarian and other herbs) for insomnia. They work, and they don't have the side-effects on finds with drugs like hormone replacement therapy or Ambien. But, they are not homeopathic remedies. Homeopathic remedies are alternative remedies, but not all alternative remedies are homeopathic.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:11 AM

94. I prefer to use science and doctors to cure what ails me.

 

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:19 AM

97. They are sold at Whole Foods by people with dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts

it doesn't matter if they work. It only matters that I am seen by my friends buying these potions.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:45 AM

104. Winner!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #104)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:36 PM

139. Homeopathy is 100% unmitigated bullshit. No question.


Still, Pat Buchanan was against the Iraq War, and broken clocks are right twice a day.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:33 PM

134. Latte sipping arugula munchers demanding abortions on their way to a save the whales pot rally!






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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:22 PM

171. LOL

That is more true than you know.

I've tried homeopathy and I had friends that said it was wonderful. It never did a darn thing for me. Although I'm not opposed to others using it - if it causes a strong placebo effect and makes then feel better, then who the hell cares?

I've tried acupuncture too (administered by my family doctor, no less, who also has a degree in chinese medicine) and it did shit. We were actually trying to 'induce' me naturally when I was pregnant. He told me he'd never done the treatment and not delivered a baby within 48 hours. We did 3 treatments over 3 weeks. I went 2 weeks overdue. Ended up with a c-section because no labor and he was going out of town (remote area, only anesthesiologist, so no maternity services, couldn't be induced b/c of previous c-section blah blah blah). So much for his acupuncture. Although he was a wonderful anesthesiologist and doctor so I can't be mad. I've never tried acupuncture again though.

I do use herbal remedies - I find most of them work pretty well, although I've had duds. I also used to go to a chiropractor off and on - I know a lot of people who think it's quackery, but as a teen I had hip pain to the point I could hardly walk. My mom took me to different doctors and even the orthepedic surgeon I saw for my scoliosis. All they did was take x-rays, and give me powerful muscle relaxants, pain killers and anti-inflammatories and a script for physio that made it worse. After months of this, and of shuffling around like an 80 year old, my desperate mom took me to a chiropractor. He took one look at my walk, and said, "Oh, that's just blahblahblah" and positioned me and popped my hip. It was like INSTANT pain relief, like he had just released some kind of jam or something. I walked out of there like a teen instead of a senior citizen - and totally pain free. Ever since, whenever I feel that pain starting in my hip, I go to a chiro and it's fixed. I don't know how or why, all I know is western medicine had nothing to offer and the chiropractor fixed it.

So I agree that some things don't have 'scientific basis' but I also don't see the harm, so long as people don't subsitute it for ALL their medical care. I will say I hear stories about people who 'take herbs' instead of getting cancer treatment, but I've never met any. I had many, many friends who were heavily into homeopathic medicine and I don't know one who wouldn't take their kid to the doctor if it was necessary. I think most people understand those remedies are for minor things.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:55 AM

111. The real question to me is what to do about it. Should it be illegal?

What about people who say it helps them?

I don't think there's any real debate over whether it works (beyond placebo, that is). But, unless people are trying to use homeopathy in place of actual medical treatments for serious ailments, I don't really see any harm.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #111)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:58 AM

114. I do not have the answer to that, but there certainly IS harm.

Illegal? I dunno. It is not the product that is harmful, it is the marketing that preys on the ignorant that poses the danger. This thread is full of examples of the harms it poses.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #114)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:11 PM

122. Is there any quantifiable evidence of the harm that homeopathy causes?

A lot of evidence I've seen of harm is anecdotal. I would guess that it's not really a big problem, that, for example, sugary sodas cause a lot more damage than homeopathy.

Homeopathy is not directly harmful. What is harmful is when people forgo actual medical treatments and use homeopathy instead. But I don't see any harm in people using homeopathy, say, for pain, particularly if it works for them.

It is a scam, of sorts. But a lot of other things are scams too.

I don't know the answer either.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #122)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:15 PM

124. "What is harmful is when people forgo actual medical treatments and use homeopathy instead"

Exactly. And that has an effect on us all.

Perhaps were the FDA to require the packaging to be clear that these "remedies" contain no actual medicine or ingredients (other than inert ones) and that they have been shown over and over to have no efficacy better than placebo...

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Response to DanTex (Reply #122)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:31 PM

127. Is it illegal to mislabel a product or lie to consumers about what a product does?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #127)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:48 PM

147. I would assume there has to be some disclaimer on the packaging about how the claims are not tested.

Although maybe I'm wrong...



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Response to DanTex (Reply #147)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:52 PM

152. Right there under drug facts

Three lies one after the other.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #152)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:00 PM

163. "According to homeopathic principles"...

Yeah, I have no idea how this is legal. I thought you needed to have some clinical trials and FDA approval before you start marketing a pill for specific ailments.

Here's what the NIH says about marketing homeopathic treatments.
Homeopathic remedies are regulated as drugs under the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (FDCA). However, under current Agency policy, FDA does not evaluate the remedies for safety or effectiveness. FDA enforcement policies for homeopathic drugs are described in FDA’s Compliance Policy Guide entitled Conditions Under Which Homeopathic Drugs May be Marketed (CPG 7132.15).

FDA allows homeopathic remedies that meet certain conditions to be marketed without agency preapproval. For example, homeopathic remedies must contain active ingredients that are listed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States (HPUS). The HPUS lists active ingredients that may be legally included in homeopathic products and standards for strength, quality, and purity of that ingredient. In addition, the FDA requires that the label on the product, outer container, or accompanying leaflet include at least one major indication (i.e., medical problem to be treated), a list of ingredients, the number of times the active ingredient was diluted, and directions for use. If a homeopathic remedy claims to treat a serious disease such as cancer, it must be sold by prescription. Only products for minor health problems, like a cold or headache, which go away on their own, can be sold without a prescription.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy#hed6

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Response to DanTex (Reply #163)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:08 PM

167. which go away on their own, can be sold without a prescription

That would be the selling point. The key is the list of "strengths" and that idiotic homeopathic book of remedies. The FDA realizes they are selling canned air, but Big WooWoo has enough financial power to force them to overlook that fact.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #114)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:25 PM

172. "marketing that preys on the ignorant"

All marketing preys on the ignorant. A certain ad about a 'man card' comes to mind....

Maybe we should cut to the chase and just make marketing illegal.


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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #172)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:26 PM

174. You know, I'm open to that idea!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #111)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:59 AM

115. Yes. It's a scam...

Companies are selling a product claiming it contains an ingredient that isn't there. It's fraudulent.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #115)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:14 PM

123. It's kind of a scam, but also kind of not.

Whether the ingredient is there or not is besides the point, since, according to the theory of homeopathy, it doesn't actually matter. Of course, the theory of homeopathy is false, but still, as long as a vendor is actually going through the process of dilution, I don't think it actually qualifies as fraud, because the product they are selling is what they say there is.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

131. They lie to the consumer about what "ailments" it will relieve

That is and ought to remain illegal.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #111)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 11:42 AM

293. People claimed turn-of-the-20th-century patent medicines helped, too

They'd even claim particular ones helped with everything. Straight-up advertising Dr. Smith's Heart And Nerve Pills or whatever as a literal panacea that cured everything from indigestion to schizophrenia and cancer. Never mind that the pills generally had no active ingredients, or stuff that we'd recognize today as actively harmful.

Most of those got outlawed because they were demonstrably fraudulent at beast, or actively harmful at worst.

I don't see why that shouldn't be extended to companies that are reviving the practice. They're harming people by preventing them from seeking grown-up remedies for their problems, and they're causing people who drank that particular kool-aid to harm dependants upon whom they foist the stuff.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:02 PM

117. I drink close to a gallon of water a day, so yes

I technically do use homeopathic remedies every day!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #117)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:05 PM

119. +1

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

130. Why Does Homeopathy Attract So Much Controversy?


Interesting response...

Patients using homeopathy cost the French government half of what it cost for patients who used orthodox treatment. French researchers have noted that the number of paid sick leave days taken by patients under the care of homeopathic physicians was 3.5 times less than patients under the care of medical practitioners. UK doctors using homeopathy cost the government 12% less than UK doctors who do not use homoeopathy. In Germany researchers found that homeopathic care for infertility was 30 times less expensive per successful delivery than orthodox medical care.

http://hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/homeopathy-why-does-it-attract-so-much-controversy/

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Response to dooner (Reply #130)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:38 PM

141. Award for most bullshit study of the day

Last edited Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Doctors who do nothing and charge less for it cost the system less money? Wow who would have thunk it?

Now how much do those quacks cost the system when real doctors have to take on the patients who get sicker due to the malpractice of others?

If you are going to defend this nonsense please find a legitimate website and not that hpathy.com crap.

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Response to dooner (Reply #130)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:00 PM

162. There is no controversy over the efficacy of homeopathy. None. At. All.

The controversy lies where people choose to disregard the evidence and choose ignorance instead.

Where are YOU on that "controversy"?

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Response to dooner (Reply #130)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:05 PM

166. Did you even READ the nonsense contained on the link you provided?

There’s nothing in a homeopathic medicine so it couldn’t possibly work.

Those making these kinds of assertions seem to miss the point that past certain potencies (12C or 24X), a homoeopathic medicine will contain the base substance (alcohol and water in the case of a liquid, or sugar in the case of a solid dose form such as a pilule) and it will also contain the electromagnetic energy that’s derived from the starting material via the process of potentisation. This latter component is not detectable by normal assay techniques, but its effects are certainly demonstrable. Studies have confirmed that biological systems can be influenced by these electromagnetic frequencies8-12. The criticism that there’s nothing in a homeopathic medicine is also frequently leveled at products, often homeopathic combination products, where the medicines are used at potencies below 12C or 24X. Anyone making the statement that there’s nothing in these products , may have a little difficulty with the information in the following table, which demonstrates the levels at which the human body responds to normal human hormones and metabolites.



Come on, man, give us a break. You cannot really believe this nonsense, right?

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:35 PM

137. Even if it's placebo...

If it helps some people, so be it.

I'm not sure why so many get their pants in a twist over this stuff. Who cares? Placebo has upward of a 38% success rate... if these things make people think they are getting better, who cares? Why do you care so much? How does this belief system hurt you?

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

148. Because it turns the ignorant away from real medicine, and in the end, that harms us all.

Thats why.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #148)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:52 PM

182. Excuse me...

But that is bullshit. Placebo effect is real medicine, and it is accounted for and relied upon and noted in real medicine. Until we harness the power of the human mind, all this ridiculous argument is what is harmful to us all.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #182)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:00 PM

191. Then it needs to be clearly labeled as such: PLACEBO EFFECT.

People need to be informed about what they are taking. I'm not asking for it to be banned, I want people to know what it is (and what it isn't) so that they can make an informed choice.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #191)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:08 PM

243. That would be enough to keep it from working!

People do know what they are taking... why are your knickers in such a twist about this?

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #243)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:16 PM

248. Uh, because "People do know what they are taking"?

I can only conclude that you feel ignorance is a proper medical treatment?

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #182)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:13 PM

298. That argument makes no sense.

You see nothing harmful about someone thinking that the pill they're taking has X effect, but in reality it's actually water pills? Why wouldn't they want to take a pill that actually has X effect then?

Let's say someone has life-threatening cancer, and they believe that homeopathic pills have the exact same effect as chemotherapy? They're sentencing themselves to death.

Your argument can also be applied to relying on faith-healing to cure cancer. These tooth fairy woo "treatments" are sold by scams, and anyone who is ignorant of that should be helped to understand otherwise for their own healths' sake.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

151. That's the whole point. It's essentially faith healing, marketed as herbal remedies.

To the extent people are duped into thinking it's something it's not, it is fraud.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #151)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:54 PM

186. Placebo effect is real...

And it is noted in real medicine... and it really helps people.

Until we understand and harness the power of the human mind, we're missing out. Placebo effect is not fraud, it is the power of the mind and it is real.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #186)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:46 PM

218. You are simply not correct

Yes the placebo effect is real however any doctor that used a placebo and lied about it would be up for a malpractice lawsuit.

You can not lie when giving a placebo.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #186)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:01 PM

224. Con artists selling people the power of their own minds = $$$

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Response to eShirl (Reply #224)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:15 PM

247. Same goes for any worthless gadget in the world

Some people spend entire lives and fortunes on "real" medical advice and drugs and never find an answer to their problems. If spending their money on voodoo helps them feel a little better, so be it.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #247)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:48 PM

259. As long as people KNOW what they're buying (a "worthless gadget" or "voodoo") fine.

Many people are still confusing homeopathic with simply herbal or "natural, not everyone knows what homeopathic is like you and I do. OK?

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:54 PM

221. I partly agree with you.

On the one hand, if people take homeopathic remedies, and it helps them, I don't really see a big problem. Placebos do have an effect, and the whole homeopathy story about the "water memory" probably makes for a pretty good placebo for people who believe it. The important thing is that people understand that if anything serious is wrong with them, they need to see a real doctor.

But on the other hand, where does it end? What's to stop someone else from inventing a new phony story and selling overpriced sugar pills. Suppose I took some suger pills and called them "Daneopathic medicine" based on vibrations and energy fields and claimed that they cures headaches and sore throats. Would that be OK too?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #221)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:11 PM

245. Placebos may need regulated too...

But the basis of this and other OPs on this subject is to poo poo the entire situation.

Some people can't afford health insurance... some people grasp at whatever they think will help them after years of no success with "legitimate" medicine. We can't judge everything with the same yardstick.

As long as something isn't physically harmful, people should be able to do what they want to do.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:36 PM

138. Homeopathic medicine is energy medicine. Most Americans don't understand that...it is clear here.

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/media_centre/news/rlhh_name_change.html

Something tells me the folks above know just a tad more than some guy who debunks for a living and the average DUer. The royals prefer this...was called the Queen's hospital. There are many in Europe and Russia, I believe.

"Modern" western medicine has been as effective at keeping the American public dumbed down on any "alternative" practices, as well as any potential cancer cures. Years ago, same stuff about Chiropracters. Yoga was laughed at. Accupuncture, ditto. Now Kaiser uses them.

I have more anecdotes...mostly about raising my son totally with homeopathics. My sister, not only her kids, but her dog. Sorry guys, kids and dogs just don't do the "fake getting better" and if it's mind over matter...worked for us. But it isn't. We had few medical bills. I bought one homeopathic kit for $110 and still have it. Some of the common ones that we used a lot, bought at the drug store.

Colic...sometimes an immediate burp...hallelujah!!! Teething...sleep!!! Fussy...Peace!!! First sniffle...gone!!! Bumps and bruises...internal and external arnica. Mom's best friend.

Once at 2 he tripped and fell hard into a fencepost and had a huge goose egg bump on his forehead...red, inflamed...at a birthday party. Raced him home, external arnica and oral arnica every 20 minutes for 3 or 4 rounds, bump went down, redness disappeared and no black eyes...which he would likely have had.

Our soccer coach's wife was a homeopath. I won't even begin to tell those stories...a lot of parents changed their minds, however.

We called them sugar pills. There are many good books on children's homoepathy...where it seems to work the best.

Homeopathy works best with the very first symptom, and you dose immediately. As long as it does not get to the next stages...say a sore throat or bad cold, it will work. If it has already progressed, they will need antibiotics. Also, for tetnus.

I believe both are useful...and complimentary. For broken bones or cancer or organ damage or diseases in medium to advanced stages works best with modern medicine. But for emerging conditions, homeopathy can work well and prevent it from escalating.

I'll answer questions, but won't respond to flames. Sorry...this has been my experience, I know professionals, and those who were able to understand the difference between biological medicine and energy medicine, and it takes some self-education, it worked for, as well.

http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/content/view/44/63/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_prevalence_of_homeopathy

http://www.ptfs-europe.com/portfolio/camlis-royal-london-homeopathic-hospital/


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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:41 PM

142. Energy medicine... lol

woowoo award of the day.

We do "understand" it... fully... and realize it is pure nonsense.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:47 PM

145. Energy medicine? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, the guys that make homeopathic remedies know just a tad more about it alright. They know how to separate a fool from his money.


Energy medicine? Really?

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:48 PM

146. Ahahahahaha....



Stop. You're making my sides hurt.

Energy medicine!!

Sid

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:54 PM

155. I see what you did there

6/10

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:59 PM

160. OMG

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:44 PM

217. The key word - Anecdotes - And Energy Medicine? Really?

Show peer reviewed double blind studies on the "efficacy" of "energy medicine(woo trademarked)" and maybe it will be taken seriously.

But in the words of Tim Minchin -


If you show me that, say, homeopathy works, then,
I will change my mind, I will spin on a fucking dime.
I’ll be as embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling,
It’s a Miracle!
Take physics and bin it.
Water has memory!
And whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite,
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it.
You show me that it works and how it works,
And when I’ve recovered from the shock,
I will take a compass and carve
“Fancy that” on the side of my ****.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:56 PM

273. Simple yes or no... Does HiV cause AIDS?

I just want to know your opinion.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #273)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:16 PM

274. I thought I was corresponding withan intelligent being. My bad. Are you for Fu## real?

Does being gay cause AIDS? Peace out.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #274)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:26 PM

275. I asked you for your opinion on the virus and said nothing about homosexuality.

I'm sorry but YOU used links from a very questionable website run by an HiV/AIDS denier. I want to know why you would have linked materials from a Neocon whackjob who is an AIDS denier, Global Warming Denier and supports Genocide. It was a strange website and I just was wondering where you stand on that crap.

I did not ask you if being gay caused AIDS so stop pretending to be hurt. It is very simple do you believe that the Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes AIDS

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #275)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 11:51 PM

277. AIDS and Iatrogenic death statistics??? This is not about some guy's junk. Get a life, Dude.

and get your mind out of there since it doesn't seem to happy there. This is about statistics from the Modern Medical Establishment. Do your own research. I do not have an opinion on gay sex as it doesn't concern or involve me. Duh.

From homeopathy to gay sex? I'm done.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #277)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 12:08 AM

280. Why are you done?

You are becoming unhinged and dodging the questions.

Those statistics are not from the Modern Medical Establishment. They are made up numbers from a right wing nutjob who also happens to be an HIV/AIDS denier. Did you just randomly find that site for phony death data or have you read the rest of it? It's a pretty ugly site from a guy that feels Iraqis and Iranians should be exterminated.

I did not even once utter the word gay. You are using it in a most strange manner to avoid answering if you believe HiV is linked to AIDS. Your views on gay sex has nothing to do with the question.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:45 PM

144. I'm a huge believer in naturopathy or herbology, but homeopathy is 100% BS n/t

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Response to librechik (Reply #144)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:04 PM

165. Naturopathy is as woowoo as homeopathy

Herbs as medicines have a lot of promise and testing them for efficacy is a great idea.

The ideology behind Naturopathy is not Science nor evidence based medicine.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

150. And no homeopathy thread is complete without Mitchell and Webb...



Sid

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:52 PM

153. James Randi just posted an article about this!

Recently, Dr. Mehmet Oz, the cardiologist who accepts “reiki” and “evening-out the human body’s energy aura,” announced his acceptance of homeopathy, possibly the most thoroughly tested quack medicine claim, ever; it has failed every double-blind, legitimate, scientific set of tests to which it has been subjected. In November 2002, I offered the JREF million-dollar prize to the UK homeopaths if their claims could pass an extensive test based upon the protocol designed by Dr. Jacques Benveniste -- a major supporter of homeopathy -- supervised by the Royal Society, the Royal London Hospital, University College, London, and Guy's Hospital, and witnessed by the homeopaths themselves. The results were quite negative, but Dr. Oz has chosen to accept this weird idea, and endorsed it on his site. Comments immediately poured in on his website for his “Homeopathic Starter Kit”…

I took just the first 25 responses to examine. Two of them – falsely – asserted that the negative comments were being deleted, though for all I know, that might have been done, at first. Of the 25, there were nine that were in favor of Oz’s new woo-woo factor. Of those 9, five were from homeopathic “doctors” or from persons connected to “alternative” healing agencies, and two offered Dr. Oz “blessings.” There was one that I still haven’t figured out – #21, and the rest – 12 – ridiculed both the show and Dr. Oz.

Here they are, in order:

All the negative comments are being deleted. I suppose that the relative dilution of the negative comments will only make them stronger?
When a doctor tells you to take medicine with no active ingredients, it's okay to question the motives of that doctor. Just so you know.
Homeopathy is at best quack medicine and at worst potentially life threatening if taken in place of genuine medical treatment. Dr. Oz should be ashamed of himself for promoting this and in my opinion should be struck off the medical register for ignoring the first rule: “First, do no harm “. Homeopathy causes a great deal of harm.
See how your comment (and mine) gets deleted!
Jelly Beans are more delicious, and you can have a good witch doctor enchant them at half the cost. A fractional solution of atoms in a water pill isn't medicine. Investigate "peer reviewed medicine" and save your money. One can only hope the FDA discredits you and your snake oil before more people suffer while you sell them magic healing.
Seems the snake oil salesmen will never go away.
Homeopathy = water. LOLOLOLOL!
I knew Oz was a joke, but this is ridiculous. Homeopathy is one of the biggest jokes in history. LOL. Fools. Good for a laugh anyway.
Dr OZ - stick to what you know. Don't peddle overpriced water. If homeopathy worked, we'd have to recognize we are all surviving on urine.
Absurd! Sylvia Browne next?
A timely and important show to inform the public about the value of homeopathy for healing the body, mind and spirit. Very thankful that Dr Oz supports this form of medicine for his family and his audience. We appreciate having expert guests on in this field and that people can take basic steps towards healing and learning about fundamental remedies in every day ailments. Blessings, Debby.
Thirsty anyone? Homeopathy is known to cure thirst. Of course, why wouldn't it, if it's really nothing more than water?
Dr Oz thank you for your program on Homeopathy. I as a homeopathic doctor really appreciate like many others your courage to air such a program. May be in future shows you can continue to bring in Homeopathic doctors from all over the world to share their experiences. Congratulations. (from an “alternative school” in Calcutta)
is there a book/site that tells whats best for who? they touched a bit about it on the show, i kno sum things work different for sum people...im really interested in transitioning
No, I think what you'll have to do is take a medical degree. Homeopathy is a dangerous scam.
Homeopathic remedies are just water with no active ingredients and no therapeutic value, unless you are thirsty.
Wow, as usual, I learned so much. Thank you for having homeopaths on your show that were clear on what homeopathy actually is and practical ways to use it for myself and my family. I've been very interested in homeopathy and am excited to hear more successful remedies that it is used for, especially those ailments that traditional medicine doesn't have any answers for. I'll be ready for the next show.
Think about that for a minute... if traditional medicine does not have an answer, could it be because the answer is complex, the illness little understood? Do you really believe that medical science has not looked at these "cures" and found them useless. Save your hard earned money. Don't buy into this pseudoscience just because it's promoted by a handful of people with degrees. Do some research, and you'll find many feel that homeopathy is no better than placebo, if that.
Wonderful to see homeopathy presented here! Next shows might include using homeopathy for more chronic ailments where it also can offer benefit!
Yes, I agree with Dr. Khan, thanks to Dr. Oz for the courage to do this show on homeopathy!
If you have questions about homeopathy check this out!
You're the man Dr. Oz, thank you for coming out, glad to know that there are a few good men around after all... God bless you.
homeopathy is considered the first alternative healing after allopathy, by World Health Organisation (Davar’s College of Homeopathy, Mumbai, India And please note: “Allopathy” refers to all modern medical means other than homeopathy. Thus, this commenter is saying that orthodox medicine comes first in efficacy, followed by quackery!)
Amazing show. Thank You for your support for homeopathy. It heals at the deepest level by catalyzing the innate healing responses our body has. (Holistic Health Practitioner)
Thank you Doctor Oz for posting about homeopathy. It is a medicine that changed my life. I found out about it by accident, and I can say because of it, I am very healthy today. (posted by The Four Winds Society, a group of shamans preaching ancient Inca healing ideas)


Count on it, Dr. Oz will not be fazed in the least, and will continue to promote this nonsense from his TV pulpit…






http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2014-homeopathy-again-strikes-out-in-style.html

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #153)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:55 PM

156. How funny! I just posted it!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #156)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:00 PM

161. lol

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #153)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:56 PM

157. I try to minimize my use of French but "Doctor" Oz is a fucking idiot.

Why that charlatan is on TV boggles the mind. Americans really are that stupid it would seem.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #157)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:56 PM

158. He is a highly respected cardiologist

That is what's so effing scary.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:57 PM

159. No, that's all a buncha hogwash! But my crystal skull really works!

NSFW dialog contained inside:




"Sorry, science. Sorry, enlightenment. Sorry, logic."

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Response to Blecht (Reply #159)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:10 PM

168. Love it...



Thanks for posting.

Sid

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:20 PM

170. Woo medicine ruins lives

I've seen it happen first hand. The first is when about a dozen different naturopaths and homeopaths convinced a Parkinson's patient he had Lyme and other "co-infections" that were the true cause of his Parkinsonism. They gave him assorted waters, herbs, and supplements as "treatment" and some even intimated his illness was down to "bad personal energy".

He lived as a human statue for ten years until I dragged his ass to a neurologist and made him take sinemet. He is now walking, talking, bathing himself, and attending classes at a local university.

Another woman who swears by naturopaths was convinced herbs and supplements were all she needed for those pesky stomach ailments! This went on for two years.

And then when her sons finally said "Why do you look seven months pregnant?" and dragged her to the doctor did anyone realize she had advanced abdominal cancer.

I live and work around Berkeley. It is rife with this pseudo religious quackery. I see snake oil salesmen taking advantage of the sick and the desperate. And the worst of the lot find ways to game Medicare to pay for their ineffective horseshit.

And none of them feel guilty about this. Do you think any of them are sorry that Parkinson's patient lost ten years of his life while they were driving off in their $50,000 SUVs?

Don't fucking bet on it.

I loathe people who take advantage of others when they are at a low ebb in their lives, either from illness or depression or desperation.

And that's all that ridiculous "industry" does.

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Response to Prism (Reply #170)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:58 PM

189. +infinity

The FDA as a whole needs an overhaul and allowing all the bullshit CAM practices to exist is one of the biggest reasons they need to be reformed.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:34 PM

175. Reminds me of the days when doctors who washed their hands were considered Quacks.

No proof. Then we learned about germs. Now it's Biology 101.

Then Vitamin C was a fake...did nothing for colds. Actually, all vitamins were fake because you just peed them out.

Then chiroparacters were witch doctors. Accupuncurists...OMG, they were Chinese voodoo practicioners and besides, it was Ancient, not Modern.









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Response to libdem4life (Reply #175)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:44 PM

178. You make good points, but when it comes to homeopathy, I think the verdict is in.

Minds changed on those items after science had it's say, and in many cases, science has yet to make a claim. With homeopathy, the science has spoken, loud and clear. To conclude otherwise is to deny the basic laws of mathematics and physics.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #178)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:01 PM

193. I respect your opinion, but it flies in the face of mine and many other's experience.

And it's by no means been "debunked" in Europe. It's used a great deal. They continue to try, however.

The AMA has been masterful at keeping Americans in their sole and very expensive care. Decent health care is unaffordable ($5 bandaids and dozens of expensive tests)...but that is because there is not whit of prevention in it. It's heroic medicine...it thrives on people being very sick, already losing organs, cancer, needing lots of drugs (not vitamins) and of course victims of accidents...etc.

Homeopathy is for many of us, the first responder. Much can be taken care of at that level. Be it placebo, hocus-pocus or whatever...if it works, and it does if you understand it, then no harm. And if it doesn't work that time, we have Modern Medicine, as well.

It does seem to work better/faster on children...whose conditions are likely simpler and not already complicated by other factors.


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Response to libdem4life (Reply #193)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:33 PM

213. Stop trying to use Europe to bolster homeopathy

European countries are actively trying to push back against that crap and relegate it back to the nonsense it always was.

The British Medical Association is trying to get that nonsense outright banned and Germany is trying to do the same.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #213)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:52 PM

220. Just depends on who you choose to read. All the Medical Associations are trying to get rid of it.

See, if it didn't work...for real...why would they care? Using that logic, people will just keep getting sicker until they come back. Few will risk death...as many people who take responsibility for their own health often use varying methods. Some are called home remedies...more witchcraft, I know.

It's not that it doesn't work, it's because 1) one must be informed and engaged in their own health and, 2) It works if it's used properly.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #220)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:59 PM

223. No it does not work no matter how you use it

Yes it depends on who you read.. The idiots pushing CAM or the science based community with real tests and actual valid clinical trials.

They are trying to get rid of it because it doesn't work at all and costs a pretty penny for pure bull shit. That is why they care. Billions is wasted on nonsense and people do in fact get sicker.

Why do you keep insisting that a regression toward the mean is an indication of efficacy?

If people were properly informed and engaged in their own health Homeopathy and CAM treatments would exist only in museums and number two is a completely false statement.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #223)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:10 PM

229. Thank you for the sane post.

It's amazing that in 2013, snake oil salesmen are still in business.
Actually, maybe it isn't that amazing that people are still falling for bullshit, but it is troubling.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #175)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:24 PM

210. Confusing..

Vitamin C doesn't do anything for colds.
You do in fact piss out most vitamin supplements.
Chiropractors are witch doctors
Acupuncture is nonsense

Where were you trying to go?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #210)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:03 PM

225. First an idea is laughed at, then it is studied, then it is accepted as truth

...or something to that effect. Doctors were mocked when they first discovered that washing their hands reduced the death rate of their patients.

All crackpot theories formerly debunked ... now in popular use and paid for or recommended by AMA approved health insurance.

Believe me, as this atrocious health care system of big medicine, big pharma, big costs continue, people will start to do what they've done for years...figure out there is little we need the above for ...until we're in an accident, sick, need some diseased organ cut out or dying. I believe it has its place...just not the only place.

Those staggering statistics of iatrogenic deaths are scandalous and mostly unnecessary...and your health care premiums and taxes pay for it.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #225)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:22 PM

232. The answer to the problems in medicine

are not to be found in witch craft

First an idea is laughed at... appeal to emotion. nonsensical statement
then it is studied... good
then it is accepted as truth... or discarded as nonsense.. like acupuncture.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #232)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:29 PM

234. Accupuncture? Are you kidding me? Kaiser Permanente pays for it.

http://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/facilities/region/gsaa/area_master/departments/acupuncture/

It's one of the reasons it's the only major health insurance player left at least in Northern California. They don't pay for things that don't work

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #234)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:39 PM

236. Bullshit they don't pay for things that don't work

Insurance companies will pay for whatever local governments and politicians force them to pay for. They will also pay for things that are cheap placebos just in the hopes that the patient won't choose a more expensive option.

Most insurance companies that cover woo medicine are forced to do so by monied interests and their politicians. Like Tom Harkin and Orrin Hatch.

All non bullshit studies of acupuncture have shown it to be worthless.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #225)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:44 PM

257. Homeopathy is not handwashing

Unwashed hands put dirt and the bacteria from the last seven patients into you.

Now, homeopathy...reality says the human body can heal itself in a great many instances if given time. If a homeopath gives you a bottle of water and you use it instead of an antibiotic, it not only gives you the time for your body to heal but keeps you from gaining resistance to the drug.

There are a couple of problems. First is the reality of price: homeopathy ain't cheap. It costs a lot for a Homeopathic Chemist to take arnica, steep it in water, dilute it with 100 parts of water, then to dilute that in 100 parts of water and so on for 100 times. And then it has to be packed and shipped. The other is homeopaths try treating with their water that which must be treated with drugs. When the patient dies..."it was something the patient did."

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #257)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:44 PM

266. Hylands remedy for colic costs a couple of bucks. Get off your hysteria and ask a parent with a new

infant what that's worth. Placebos, right. Duh.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #266)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 05:57 AM

283. Sugar water works and you have the stuff for that

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #225)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:02 PM

261. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers...

But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
- Carl Sagan

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #261)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:46 PM

268. Okey dokey. Please, proceed...

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #268)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:27 PM

310. Translation: you are wearing the floppy shoes. n/t

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:46 PM

179. Iatrogenic Deaths are Rampant...but I don't knock or mock Modern Medicine.It's just not all there is

These figures are staggering, well-known, and not just hearsay.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine/usamed/deaths.htm

Table Of Iatrogenic Deaths In The United States
(Deaths induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures)
Condition Deaths Cost Author
Adverse Drug Reactions 106,000 $12 billion Lazarou (1) Suh (49)
Medical error 98,000 $2 billion IOM (6)
Bedsores 115,000 $55 billion Xakellis (7) Barczak (8)
Infection 88,000 $5 billion Weinstein (9) MMWR (10)
Malnutrition 108,800 — Nurses Coalition (11)
Outpatients 199,000 $77 billion Starfield ( 12) Weingart (1, 12)
Unnecessary Procedures 37,136 $122 billion HCUP(3, 13)
There are a few more graphs and deaths, at the link.Surgery-Related 32,000 $9 billion AHRQ(8,5)
TOTAL 783,936 $282 billion

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #179)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:54 PM

185. I don't understand what that has to do with homeopathy.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #185)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:57 PM

187. You don't!?

Oh dear! I don't understand the point of your TWO threads, either. I suspect ego boosting, but you might just be bored?

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #187)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:06 PM

200. For someone who thinks that time on DU and knowing the admins lends credibility

you should know that at this point, you're beginning to stalk. If you want a conversation about something we have yet to cover, just ask. But responding with disruptive nonsense to my every post not to you, defines stalking.


So please, kindly let it go.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #185)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:03 PM

195. All these dire warnings about the danger of homeopathy ...these are figures of the dangers of

our typical health care system ... Modern Medicine.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #195)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:11 PM

201. Indeed, and homeopathy plays a part in those numbers.

Things that are dangerous in medicine need to be addressed. Homeopathy is just one of those dangers, and only requires education and information to defeat. This is low-hanging fruit. Why not pick it and be done?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #201)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:39 PM

216. I don't see where any other method would significantly contribute.

"These projected figures show that a total of 164 million people, approximately 56 percent of the population of the United States, have been treated unnecessarily by the medical industry—in other words, nearly 50,000 people per day."

But we can agree to disagree.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine/usamed/deaths.htm

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #216)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:13 PM

246. But we agree!

More needs to be done to make medicine safer. You shine a light on yet another area that needs work.

We may cast our light on different areas, but our desire to inform and educate are the same.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #246)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:53 PM

270. Education, yes. I don't know about safer...it's worked for me and mine for decades.

Just different experiences, perhaps.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #201)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:22 PM

231. The statistics are of iatrogenic deaths...conditions the patient did not have when they began

treatment. Homeopathy could in no way be involved in these numbers...and they are staggering.


http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine/usamed/deaths.htm

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #231)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:45 PM

237. Of course homeopathy could be involved.

Why would you make such a claim?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #237)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:47 PM

238. I am sorry to be so harsh but so far

every single statement you have made is demonstrably falsifiable.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #238)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:22 PM

250. That's OK...I don't take it personally. I've had this conversation many times. Mostly friends and

family or parents. I've actually studied it...both sides...and witnessed it dozens of times...that's the difference. Not woo medicine, sorry.

Then there's the University of Maryland...among many others... http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/homeopathy-000352.htm

"Many homeopaths are also medical doctors (MDs), although homeopaths are licensed in almost every health profession category, including veterinarians. In most states, practitioners of homeopathy must be licensed health care providers. "

Source: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/homeopathy-000352.htm#ixzz2KLR1sfbn
Follow us: @UMMC on Twitter | MedCenter on Facebook

Arnica is often a person's first and grateful experience in sports injuries. My son's soccer coach was a homeopath.

http://www.arnica.com/

So thanks for the discussion...we can agree to disagree.

Peace.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #250)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:29 PM

253. This goes beyond that

A coach that gave Arnica to players should have a short jail term for practicing medicine without a license.

That some doctors believe stupid shit is no defense.

You can not in any way shape or form defend the lack of science behind homeopathy. You are only pointing out that even complete idiots can pass medical exams and be licensed to practice medicine.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #237)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:02 PM

241. By definition...the people didn't have the condition they died with BEFORE entering the medical

system. Say they went in with a broken leg and died from a staph infection...that kind of thing.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #241)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:33 PM

254. Perhaps that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

Iatrogenesis, or an iatrogenic artifact (pron.: /aɪˌætroʊˈdʒɛnɪk/; "originating from a physician") is an inadvertent adverse effect or complication resulting from medical treatment or advice, including that of psychologists, therapists, pharmacists, nurses, physicians and dentists. Iatrogenesis is not restricted to conventional medicine; it can also result from complementary and alternative medicine treatments.
Some iatrogenic artifacts are clearly defined and easily recognized, such as a complication following a surgical procedure. Some less obvious ones can require significant investigation to identify, such as complex drug interactions. Furthermore, some conditions have been described for which it is unknown, unproven, or even controversial whether they are iatrogenic or not; this has been encountered in particular with regard to various psychological and chronic-pain conditions. Research in these areas continues.
Causes of iatrogenesis include chance, medical error, negligence, social control, unexamined instrument design, anxiety or annoyance related to medical procedures,and the adverse effects or interactions of medications.


See CAM is a source as well as social. How much of Iatrogenic deaths are due to pure random chance?

For the umpteenth time, the answer to a problem in Medicine is not nonsense.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #254)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:49 PM

269. Don't argue with me...it's statistics. It's your own folks reporting this. Not the "wackos".

Peace.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #179)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:12 PM

272. By the way did the unibomber write that site? UPDATE numbers are BS

Holy whackadoodle batman.

"2. My wife's son needlessly died of AIDS after refusing our pleas to ignore his doctor's advice that his condition was caused by HIV virus, not his lifestyle. So he persevered with his lifestyle until his health completely failed and he died in St Vincent's hospital."

That guy is off his fucking rocker crazy.

Those numbers are made up bullshit. Just track down the supposed numbers for deaths from bedsores and his so called research is from
Xakellis, G.C., R. Frantz and A. Lewis, Cost of Pressure Ulcer Prevention in Long Term Care, JAGS, 43 - 5, May 1995.
Barczak, C.A., R.I. Barnett, E.J. Childs, L.M. Bosley, "Fourth National Pressure Ulcer Prevalence Survey", Advances in Wound Care, 10- 4, Jul/Aug 1997

Neither of these reports appears to support the conclusion of that many patients who died from bedsores.

These figures are staggering, well-known, and not just hearsay.

I am going to go ahead and call bullshit on that website and those nonsense numbers.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:04 PM

198. Comes off a bit pompous

Was it really necessary to get video footage in a pool, lake, and toilet?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #198)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:12 PM

203. Perhaps, but it is effective. And factual.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #203)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:13 PM

205. Rubbed me the wrong way

Not questioning any facts - just don't like the style. Expressing personal opinion/preference only.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #205)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:15 PM

206. Dawkins seems to have that effect on many.

And he IS British, after all!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #206)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:28 PM

211. Ben Goldacre would be a better choice

Bad Medicine should be required reading in High School.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #206)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:54 PM

239. I like his writing better than his videos

I think he just comes across as a bit too smug in those.

Michael Moore has a similar effect (post Roger and Me).

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:17 PM

230. Water. With memory.

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #230)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

311. IT'S GOT WHAT HOMEOPATHS CRAVE! n/t

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:18 PM

249. I use homeopathic remedies all the time and they work great

When I suffer from the disease called Thirst, I go to the homeopathic medicine dispenser in my kitchen, draw out a 16-ounce dose of medicine and treat my disease. Works every time.

The same medicine from the same source is great for treating Dirty Dishes, Dirty Floors and Dirty Hands.

I have a bigger source of this medicine in the bathroom for treating BO. Apply the medicine topically and the symptoms go away.

The homeopathic remedies available at this health food store downtown (Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, has the highest concentration of quacks per square mile in the continental United States) seem better at curing the disease of Money In Your Bank Account.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #249)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:23 PM

251. +1!!!1

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #249)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:06 PM

263. Excellent!

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:39 PM

256. If you make it

or know the person who does (and their methods) then it's all good.

I would never buy such things in a store. Waste of money.

Julie

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 06:17 AM

285. Holy crap. Off topic, but I begin to see how some people get such high post counts....

Talk about ranting... It's almost like some people are making money on homeopathic "cures" and don't want people to talk about them so they can keep the suckers who buy them on the hook.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #285)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 06:56 AM

287. agreed!

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #285)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 10:55 AM

290. Not really off topic. It is the fact that companies prey on the ignorant, and keeping them ignorant

Keeping them ignorant is part of the game. That is why they oppose FDA approval and honest labeling.

Not off topic at all.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #290)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:14 PM

312. Here is an example of the reinforcement of the ignorance of the masses....

On February 7, 2013, WDAF-TV in Kansas City had one of their morning personalities interview a woman who claims to be a "naturopathic oncologist". Apparently, the on-air personalities never thought to question a single word of what the guest said:

Naturally boost your immune system
Posted on: 12:00 pm, February 7, 2013, by FOX 4 Newsroom, updated on: 12:40pm, February 7, 2013

(The video is at the link below.)

From flu-fighting ice cream, to immune-boosting beer — there are a ton of things and home remedies that claim to ward-off the flu. But, staying healthy doesn’t have to be weird or difficult. Judith Boice, a Naturopathic Oncology doctor with the Cancer Treatment Centers of America, shared on Tuesday’s FOX 4 Morning Show several ways to stay healthy, naturally.

Cold prevention ideas:

  • Lifestyle changes – sneezing and coughing into your elbow, avoiding door handles and elevator buttons, sleep/light
  • Hydrotherapy – end showers with 30 seconds of cold water, inhalation of hot steam helps clear nasal passages, warming socks, wet sheet wrap
  • Homeopathy – avoid coffee, oscillococcinum
  • Botanical medicine – arabinogalactan (produced from the bark of the larch tree); Elderberry, garlic and other natural medicines.
  • Nutritional supplements

    http://fox4kc.com/2013/02/07/naturally-boost-your-immune-system/


The final words from the only people who could question the veracity of Judith Boice's statements were:

WDAF-TV Personality (at the end of the video): "I've learned so much...(Boice's speaking schedule is given.) Nick, we're gonna send it over to you."

WDAF-TV Co-personality (off-camera, as the music rises): "...agree! That is interesting!"



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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:21 AM

307. Haven't seen this mentioned in this thread but James Randi and others "overdosed"...

on homeopathic sleeping pills. All survived. None felt sleepy.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:29 AM

315. Yes I drink lots of water

Same thing, right?

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