HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Why do we all of a sudden...

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:28 AM

Why do we all of a sudden care about the drones?

There were a few lone voices crying in the wilderness over the last few years. All of a sudden, NOW we care that innocent (but, unfortunately, foreign-born and brown) children are being killed in our name by unmanned drones.

What changed?

Well, I think the main thing that changed was that, with the revelation of the 'white paper' and its intentionally vague definitions, it suddenly became real for many of us that someday WE could become the targets.

Sad.. but unfortunately true, and I won't plead innocence for myself either.

48 replies, 2099 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why do we all of a sudden care about the drones? (Original post)
Flying Squirrel Feb 2013 OP
MrSlayer Feb 2013 #1
Flying Squirrel Feb 2013 #4
Matariki Feb 2013 #16
MrSlayer Feb 2013 #17
Justice4All1 Feb 2013 #27
JaneyVee Feb 2013 #38
Recursion Feb 2013 #31
Angry Dragon Feb 2013 #10
MrSlayer Feb 2013 #19
DeSwiss Feb 2013 #12
MrSlayer Feb 2013 #18
Romulox Feb 2013 #28
MrSlayer Feb 2013 #42
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #2
graham4anything Feb 2013 #3
Scootaloo Feb 2013 #5
graham4anything Feb 2013 #6
Flying Squirrel Feb 2013 #9
daleo Feb 2013 #44
graham4anything Feb 2013 #47
daleo Feb 2013 #48
fadedrose Feb 2013 #7
blkmusclmachine Feb 2013 #8
Angry Dragon Feb 2013 #11
Journeyman Feb 2013 #13
Flying Squirrel Feb 2013 #14
Solly Mack Feb 2013 #37
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #15
sendero Feb 2013 #20
2on2u Feb 2013 #22
2on2u Feb 2013 #21
LWolf Feb 2013 #23
randome Feb 2013 #29
LWolf Feb 2013 #43
FSogol Feb 2013 #24
Autumn Feb 2013 #39
FSogol Feb 2013 #40
reformist2 Feb 2013 #25
Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #26
Romulox Feb 2013 #30
sylvi Feb 2013 #41
Recursion Feb 2013 #32
Romulox Feb 2013 #33
Recursion Feb 2013 #34
Romulox Feb 2013 #36
slackmaster Feb 2013 #35
Zax2me Feb 2013 #45
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #46

Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:43 AM

1. I still don't really care.

 

They're ruthless yes but efficient. Certainly better than sending in ground troops or carpetbombing.

I don't envision a scenario where I or anyone here becomes a target. None of us are terrorists or are overseas colluding and cahooting with terrorists. I really think that whole thing is overblown. If you get yourself into a situation where you are regarded as a threat to the nation as that asshole al-Awaki was, you're asking to be droned.

I predict that none of us ever get droned. Not a single one of us, ever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:01 AM

4. Nice prediction, but unfortunately it's already been disproved.

If, by "one of us," you mean U.S. Citizens who were not terrorists, and were not overseas "colluding and cahooting with terrorists." Al-Awaki's son was not colluding or "cahooting" with his father, (show me some evidence to the contrary), and was killed in a separate drone strike for reasons to which we are still not privy. I would argue that as a fellow U.S. Citizen he is therefore "one of us."

However, in the likely event that you disagree with that, your prediction is still quite sophomoric. Once again, it's "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about." That doesn't fly for those of us with just a little more foresight and healthy skepticism regarding the good intentions of our government officials.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We would do well to remember this. It's why the founding fathers created a system of checks and balances in the first place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:37 AM

16. And jezus, have it dismissed with “he should have had a far more responsible father…”

Had someone in the Bush administration said that, we'd be beside ourselves with rage for weeks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:04 AM

17. Right, he was apple pie and hot dogs.

 

The kid wasn't the target but he was in close enough proximity to the target to share in the misery. This wasn't some regular goofy high school kid trekking off to fucking Yemen of all places on spring break or something, he was there with purpose.

This was the son of an al-Qaeda leader spending time in terrorist central with very bad people. He's 16, it's October and Captain America is supposed to be in a Denver high school and yet he's being droned in Yemen while standing next to an Egyptian al-Qaeda top dog. Why do you suppose that is? I'm going to guess they weren't discussing the NFL or their latest D&D characters but suppose they were. Why is he there at all?

The truly regrettable thing is that he found himself in that situation. And I would commit the ultimate liberal sacrilege and ask where his mother was in all this but we know the answer. Neutralized in every way by the ludicrous fundamentalist nonsense practiced by her husband is most likely, if the asshole was ever there at all.

Just how does a red blooded, all-American patriotic boy next door like this end up blown up halfway around the world?

C'mon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #17)


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:58 AM

38. His son wasn't the target. Therefore that makes him an innocent bystander; collateral damage.

Which kind of proves the point on both sides of the debate. One, he wasn't the target, so therefore the US in reality wasn't targeting an innocent American to kill, OTOH he was killed so it proves that drones do in fact kill innocent civilians as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:51 AM

31. I think he meant "people who are not in Yemen at an Al Qaeda camp"

rather than "US Citizens"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:33 AM

10. .............

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:18 AM

19. I like your DU monicker.

 

Blumpkin or Cleveland Steamer would have been amusing as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:55 AM

12. Video game wars are ''certainly better,'' huh?

Except the players don't get any extra lives in this game.

Dead is dead. It's REAL. It's kids and babies.

Dead terrorists and their wives, their children, their fathers with their gnarled hands from years of back-breaking labor and their mothers shod in hot burqas and filled with terror for their children's lives.

Killed for the audacious act of attending the funerals of the relatives we've already droned.

And yet without the filthy, stinking horror of war and death possible on all sides, there's absolutely no reason to ever stop this.

Push-button war is war without sacrifice on both sides.

It's not war in any true sense of the meaning of that word.

It's not war when the dead didn't know they were in a war and didn't even have a gun.

Their crime was being too close.

Killing with drones is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I predict that if we don't stop this insanity NOW, you probably will be droned.


- Fortunately, you'll probably never realize what's happened......


They thought they were free.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:13 AM

18. I never said it was noble or honorable.

 

Just that it was efficient and better than randomly bombing or putting our elite troops in suicide situations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrSlayer (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:43 AM

28. Any chance we could stop waging our Foreverwar, instead? Your choice seems to be in *how* we kill.

Is it "naive" of me to think that a cessation of hostilities in places like Yemen (where we are not now, nor have we ever been at "war") might be possible?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:01 PM

42. I doubt it.

 

As long as al-Qaeda people continue to congregate and plot there, we're going to keep killing them there. I guess it's more or less up to them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:47 AM

2. Yep. The government has taken steps outside of the Constitution and the social contract

 

as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:51 AM

3. Drones are the most humane form of human warfare-Richard Clarke

 

liberals loved Richard Clarke after 9-11

hypocritical to not love him after his remark last month.

If only there were drones in older times,(like 2 weeks before Hitler gave his first order to arrest or kill), then truly it could be sung
"What a wonderful, wonderful world it could be"

Quentin Tarentino instead of making fake history so he can make tens of millions of dollars, could have made a quick short instead of that rewriting of history he did in Inglorious Bastards.
QT could have had in the first minute of a short movie, had a drone drop on Hitler as he was alone in his garden, 2 weeks before assembling his council and barking orders.

Would anyone in the world not been better off?
20 million lives would have been saved.

That is the drone argument in a nutshell.

Those that would not have wanted that event, let us know.

As I am Jewish, and was directly affected in my family by the holocaust, I for one would have cheered that.
How bout everyone else?

Pleae note-this is a general answer, not to any specific poster and just my opinion.


and NO, I don't see how "we" could become the targets if "we" are not doing terroristic stuff.

Sheesh, it took ten years to painstakingly track down OBL, and that was no spur of the moment decision. And they didn't even use drones on him did they?
All that worry, for nothing. IMHO

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:05 AM

5. "hypocritical to not love him after his remark last month. "

Well, that's just a stupid argument. I was unaware that if I agree with someone on one thing, then I must have to agree with them on everything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:08 AM

6. If Richard Clarke says one thing and Repub. Rep. Peter King the other

 

I would pick Richard Clarke's opinion.

If Richard Clarke and Rep. King agreed on something, then it must be doubly true, because it must be something King isn't going to waste his own capital one saying elsewise.
Whereas Clarke has nothing to gain or lose so he would tell the truth to start off with.

imho

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:22 AM

9. You haven't been paying close enough attention

to the things our Government now considers to be acts of terror, or sympathizing with terrorists. They're redefining the word "terrorism" ever more vaguely, to justify their actions. If you don't agree that our government is being taken over by corporate interests, you REALLY aren't paying attention. If you do agree, then you shouldn't have much trouble connecting the dots: If Government = Corporations, that's a little thing called FASCISM. Capital letters. And if I want to do something which those corporations find threatening to their consolidation of power within the Government, (such as, perhaps, organize a protest group), then they might just call me a domestic terrorist - and if I get too strong, (and perhaps hole up somewhere after repeated police brutality and other civil rights violations), yes, I just might be looking at a drone strike. My God, man, open your eyes. This is happening, and people much less sane than I are stockpiling weapons in preparation for the final showdown they believe is coming. I don't agree with them - yet - and I'm not stockpiling weapons - yet - but I can see things headed that way. Saner heads need to prevail here, and soon, before this really does spin out of control.

Oh.. also, this is not a legitimate war like WWII. Congress has to declare war, remember? Can we really declare war on a concept? If so, when will that war be over? Have you read 1984? Do you realize the effects of perpetual war upon the citizens of a country? It makes good people such as you and me numb to the atrocities being committed on our behalf.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:55 PM

44. What if Hitler had the drones?

And took out the British cabinet in 1939.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to daleo (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:52 AM

47. Hitler had the drones of his day and used them to kill 20 million people

 

whereas had one well placed drone gotten hitler two weeks before he came up with his
master plan (and Hitler was the man with the plan, no one else with him was diddley in importance, he was the whole shebang, one mad man leader, without him there was no 20 million dead, none of the others would have been elected leader in the first place, and as seen, once Hitler died it ended. And has never in large numbers come back

Though Jorg Haider actually was elected (and stunningly charismatic, hunklike and handsome, whereas could Hitler have ever been said to be handsome and hunk like?) and who knows what horrors would have happened had he not been a drinker and drunk driver on the autobahn.

Good for his car. The world was saved from having to know what the hell might have happened to Austria and the world in the years since.Thankfully no one else was hurt in that reckless accident.

I for one would rather have Una than Jorg any day of the year.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to graham4anything (Reply #47)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 04:44 PM

48. The point is, assassination as a matter of public policy can work for and against you

It's easy to agree with drone strikes when you monopolize the technology. But in time, others will acquire it too. Then, cheering drone warfare isn't so easy.

Look at nuclear weapons fear a precedent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:10 AM

7. When drones come to SNL, it's time to stop laughing...

I posted this in a "drones" poll last week, will copy part of it:

"On SNL last week, a replay, they showed a cartoon of drones blowing up a building, farm, whatever, and they demolished it. Then a little sheep managed to come out, the drones returned and fired at the poor sheep till it was pulvarized - and this was SNL. Frightening but educational.."

I was shocked that it had gone that far.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:17 AM

8. I think they always intended to expand it to the United States.

Probably under a "Democrat," too. Go check out Operation Northwoods.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:36 AM

11. Read on DU

30,000 drones authorized to be used in US

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:37 AM

13. I've expressed dismay at drones from the very first attack, when the tall Arab recycler was killed…

Do you remember the madness of the Tall Arab recycler?

He was killed by a Predator drone in Afghanistan back during the day when the US government was marginally interested in events in that sad country. They were sure he was Usama bin Laden, but he turned out to be just some poor schlub collecting scrap metal who had the genetic misfortune to be tall. So based on satellite/spy plane imagery that showed a "tall Arab" in the vicinity, the military killed a slew of guys whose crime was recycling.

So no, I've been incensed by remote slaughter for a very long time, and fears for my personal safety play no part in my anger. If we are determined to wage war, then let us wage it face to face, see the horror we engender, and recognize ourselves for the part in which we play.

http://www.thenation.com/article/166124/brief-history-drones#

The Nation: A Brief History of Drones (February 27, 2012)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Journeyman (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:42 AM

14. I salute you, Sir...

I, unfortunately, have been so numbed by all the killing going on in my name that I had just stopped really caring. I am quite ashamed of myself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Journeyman (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:58 AM

37. I remember that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:57 AM

15. Actually when I read the Patriot Act, must have been around 2001 shortly after 9/11, I was

sitting with a group of people discussing it, and I said that I thought that the definition of terrorist and terrorism was too vague, too broad, and would encompass a lot of acts. It's arbitrary. A terrorist could be anyone we don't agree with or it could really be someone who is placing a bomb in some public place or it could be some kid verging on schizophrenia who gets talked into doing something stupid by a government agent. It's way to unclear what kinds of actual acts define terrorism and what kinds of conspiracies are terrorist. I don't see how that law can be enforced fairly, maybe even at all.

And this whole drone thing, the way it is applied, the idea that a small group of people, albeit well educated, albeit "experts," decide the life or death of a person far away in some remote are of the world or even here in the US is inconsistent with our national commitment to human rights.

And yet I know that terrorism whatever it really is threatens the peace in the world.

I don't have ready answers for this problem, but the drones used in the way they apparently are now being used is not it. Too arbitrary. Too much opportunity for the abuse of a power that should only belong to God, not to terrorists or a small group in our government who have no oversight from any independent judicial body or any international body.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 06:05 AM

20. Drone or just about anything and everything......

... that has been done in the "war on terror" since 2001 has created more terrorists than it has eliminated.

It's the collateral damage. When you kill a lot of innocent people it pisses their survivors off. It's not a difficult concept, and what we have done and continue to do guarantees the terror issue will never go away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sendero (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:25 AM

22. Mob security. n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:24 AM

21. Cuz they took the white filter off the lens. n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:38 AM

23. I care about the violence

regardless of the tool, and I always have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LWolf (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:45 AM

29. Strange. That's something we can ALL agree on but so few mention it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:06 PM

43. People get caught up in

what someone else tells them is the topic of the day.

I care more about causes than symptoms.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:41 AM

24. Because the 2014 mid terms are approaching and the Repubs want to keep as many Democrats from voting

as possible? See 2010 the mid term election.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FSogol (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:09 AM

39. If anything I would think this issue would get more Dem's out to vote

and pay attention to what they are voting for. To stay at home and let people who are the ones who have pushed for this to gain a bigger foothold would be stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Autumn (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:18 AM

40. Democrats stayed home in 2010. Some want the same thing to happen in 2014. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:57 AM

25. OP is sooo right! When I read that Senator Corker (R) was questioning drones...

... it made me suspicious. Why? Turns out, yep, he's worried about the US getting a taste of its own "medicine"!

Corker stressed that the U.S. needs to be mindful that a day will come “very soon” when other countries have the technology to carry out their own unmanned aerial vehicle strikes. Washington should adopt a system of rules now that could set an example, he said.

“We’ve got to have a set of standards, and checks and balances that help ferret out the ethical issues that need to be ferreted out because soon other countries are going to be doing the same thing,” Corker said.

-Yahoo article, Top Republican on Foreign Relations panel says drone war may not be lawful


But I shouldn't be surprised, really. Repugs never defend those whose human rights are being violated, unless there's a danger that THEIR rights might be violated. They think like selfish children.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:02 AM

26. Actually, I was a fan of drones when we started in October 2002.


it seemed like the one thing that Bush got right.

Then came - "signature strikes" and "double dip" attacks; and I've turned to a vehement critic of this idioitic program.

I oppose this policy. Whatever party proposes it, I oppose it. There must be a better way.

livingunderdrones.org

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:45 AM

30. It's like bellbottoms; war is fashionable, again! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Romulox (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:40 AM

41. Yep

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:52 AM

32. Drones are a distraction. Replace the word with "infantry assault".

The exact same issues apply. If you're a US Citizen in an Al Qaeda training camp, your position may be assaulted by US Infantry. Exact same legal issue, but DUers freak out less.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Recursion (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:54 AM

33. Nonsense. An "infantry assault" wouldn't be possible in Yemen, e.g., or on American soil. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Romulox (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:55 AM

34. Drone strikes aren't authorized on American soil either

That, at least, was specifically laid out (you did read the memo, right?)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Recursion (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:58 AM

36. So what? The President could change his mind, since he claims "unitary" power to enact this policy.

edit: Change his mind WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE, too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:56 AM

35. I'm also wondering how people could find something called a "drone" to be interesting at all

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:34 PM

45. All of a sudden? There were times bush use of drones ate up the forum.

 

No different now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flying Squirrel (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:38 PM

46. Maybe I haven't posted it, but I DEPLORE our use of drones in Pakistan, etc.!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread