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Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:18 PM

From the beginning, I was against the Iraq War. Most people on this board probably share this view...

I knew that we would fall down a very deep and very dark rabbit hole once we sent the first sorries over the border.

I knew, like probably everybody else on this board would agree, that new tactics, new impersonal ways of waging war, new guidelines would be offered along new and closer lines to be drawn in the sand once the shooting started.

Why I was, as most of the people on this board would surely agree, so opposed to the state sanctioned violence projected from my country to settle international disputes is because of the blow back that will surely come our way. Not tomorrow, not next year and maybe not for decades, but mark my word, we will be judged in the future for the particular dogs of war we let loose in the guise of drones.

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Reply From the beginning, I was against the Iraq War. Most people on this board probably share this view... (Original post)
WCGreen Feb 2013 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Feb 2013 #1
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #2
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #60
Cleita Feb 2013 #3
WCGreen Feb 2013 #4
tblue Feb 2013 #32
raccoon Feb 2013 #44
maddiemom Feb 2013 #49
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #51
Cleita Feb 2013 #64
tledford Feb 2013 #79
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #75
Solly Mack Feb 2013 #5
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #6
leftstreet Feb 2013 #7
MuseRider Feb 2013 #8
Dyedinthewoolliberal Feb 2013 #9
Arkansas Granny Feb 2013 #10
niyad Feb 2013 #11
Auntie Bush Feb 2013 #30
lonestarnot Feb 2013 #34
niyad Feb 2013 #45
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #52
Catherina Feb 2013 #12
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #13
pinboy3niner Feb 2013 #20
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #54
Robb Feb 2013 #62
John2 Feb 2013 #73
valerief Feb 2013 #14
Ron Obvious Feb 2013 #15
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #55
justiceischeap Feb 2013 #16
MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #17
tblue Feb 2013 #35
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #56
white_wolf Feb 2013 #66
Shivering Jemmy Feb 2013 #68
white_wolf Feb 2013 #69
Shivering Jemmy Feb 2013 #71
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #18
RC Feb 2013 #19
KansDem Feb 2013 #61
WillyT Feb 2013 #21
alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #22
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #23
tblue Feb 2013 #36
Jeevus Feb 2013 #24
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #25
Catherina Feb 2013 #26
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #40
Catherina Feb 2013 #41
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #43
Catherina Feb 2013 #47
WCGreen Feb 2013 #78
underpants Feb 2013 #27
WcoastO Feb 2013 #28
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #29
meti57b Feb 2013 #31
libdem4life Feb 2013 #33
another_liberal Feb 2013 #37
sibelian Feb 2013 #50
another_liberal Feb 2013 #74
sibelian Feb 2013 #82
another_liberal Feb 2013 #83
sibelian Feb 2013 #84
another_liberal Feb 2013 #85
sibelian Feb 2013 #86
another_liberal Feb 2013 #87
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #38
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #39
TM99 Feb 2013 #42
bvar22 Feb 2013 #46
patrice Feb 2013 #58
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #48
pansypoo53219 Feb 2013 #53
patrice Feb 2013 #57
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #59
ReRe Feb 2013 #63
sdfernando Feb 2013 #65
white_wolf Feb 2013 #67
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2013 #70
WCGreen Feb 2013 #72
JAbuchan08 Feb 2013 #76
Bucky Feb 2013 #77
on point Feb 2013 #80
arikara Feb 2013 #81

Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:19 PM

1. I agree COMPLETELY.

K&R

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:21 PM

2. The democratic party is no longer recognizable.

I wonder what we will hear next. That we should go to war with Iran, North Korea perhaps.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:27 PM

60. Of course - you hear it already - "war is good for the economy".

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:22 PM

3. The whole nation and the world were against it. Remember all the massive

protests around the world. I attended several myself in my county. Yet, George W. Bush became a king and made us go to war every much as a king, with absolute powers, would. He and his minions had no intention of ever listening to the will of the people.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:23 PM

4. And there was no stopping them once they decided...

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:58 PM

32. And that happened before Bush v. Gore

They wanted that war. That may have been one reason why they just had to have the presidency.

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Response to tblue (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:02 AM

44. By George, I think you've got it! nt

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Response to Cleita (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:12 PM

49. But he wanted to be a "war president."

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Response to Cleita (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:19 PM

51. Feb 15, 2003 - 100,000 people attended in Los Angeles. I heard Gore Vidal speak, among others. I do

 

think you are re-writing history a bit, in order to excuse Democratic Party connivance and perfidy. Remember that pathetic Dick Gebhardt and wuss extraordinaire Tom Daschle met with Bush in the Rose Garden and sealed the kondordat that took Iraq off the table for the 2002 mid-terms. Then such Dems notables as Hillary Clinton and John Kerry voted to give Bush AUMF in Iraq.

Dems are almost equally culpable for Operation Shocking and Awful, imho.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:07 PM

64. I'm not talking about our sell out politicians. I'm talking about the

whole of Congress including our sell out politicians, you referenced, who ignored the massive protests of we the people and they still are ignoring us for the most part.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #64)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 06:49 PM

79. They don't WORK for we, the people, they work for the 1%. eom

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Response to Cleita (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:51 PM

75. Chuck Hagel was for it, and people now claim he's Mr Peace and he's got to be in charge of war!

Nation and world against it, Republicans for it.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:24 PM

5. K&R

Remember how the right called us Anti-American for disagreeing with Bush? Called us traitors and the fringe?



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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:34 PM

6. We are totally screwed. If Democrats are going to do this, where can we

turn?

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:35 PM

7. DURec

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:36 PM

8. With you.

This is so unlike anything I ever thought to see in the country.

Sad, very very sad and it is being done with our names all over it.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:40 PM

9. Maybe this is what creates enough traction to form a legitimate

3rd party? Me? I'm in a union and often think there should be a Labor Party whose platform and actions protect the right of workers to be organized. But I'd also go for a Progressive or Liberal type party too.........

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:13 PM

10. I also realized, for months before the invasion, that

there was nothing that would dissuade GWB for going ahead with his plans. It's didn't matter what the weapons inspectors found or didn't find. It's didn't matter what Saddam did or didn't do about the demands that were made. All that mattered was that the WOT had resulted in high approval ratings for GWB and his ego demanded escalation so he could prove to Poppy that he was the better President.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:15 PM

11. k and r-- the whole world was against it, a lot of people in this country were against it (although

you would never know, watching the corporate whores of the media) and it didn't do one damned bit of good. I cannot count how many people I no longer speak to because of what is being done in our names. We will be paying a very heavy price for our sins for a long time to come.

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Response to niyad (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:45 PM

30. Even our children and grandchildren will be paying. Damn the 2000 stolen election & BUSH.

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:02 PM

34. I've said often that debush'n would take years.

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 09:32 AM

45. sadly, you are absolutely correct

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Response to niyad (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:23 PM

52. Polls right before March 20, 2003 showed the American public almost evenly split 50-50, not that

 

tbe media whores were ever going to mention that little fact.

My wife made up a sign that said, "United, My Ass!" We got a lot of laughs out of that, as out of our sign that said, "Support our Oops!"

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:18 PM

12. Harshly judged and repaid for it

These are very dark times for our country.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:23 PM

13. Not even close to why I was against the Iraq war.

I was against war in Iraq because it was CLEAR that Iraq was not involved in 9/11.

My objection had nothing to do with "impersonal war" or any such psycho-babble. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Period. There were no WMDs and this was KNOWN.

You can claim that drones will cause blow back. They certainly might. But I doubt full scale invasions, like in Iraq, would result in smaller levels of blow back.

Comparing the use of targeted drones to the full scale invasion of Iraq does not really support your conclusion.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:04 PM

20. +1. Few, if any of us, were concerned about blowback at that time

The primary concern was unjustified war and its human consequences. And the impossibly rosy projections that we'd be in and out, with flowers, in no time.

What a fucking crock of criminal BS!

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:27 PM

54. Two big lies: Saddam Hussein had WMDs and Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with Al Quaida. Both

 

easily debunked with about 30 minutes' research, which is why I shall never, ever cast a vote for Hillary for any public office and why I vote Green or Peace and Freedom rather than vote for that war pig Feinstein.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:29 PM

62. Bingo.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:42 PM

73. I don't know of any country

 

that has harbored a terrorist like the ones the U.S. used drone attacks on? Tell me one country the U.S. has done so? Anybody associated with Al Qaeda has been targeted by the U.S. and her allies. Congress gave the President that authority after 9\11. And the last time I looked, the President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. The Executive Branch also has equal powers under the checks and balances theory. Nobody put handcuffs on Harry Truman when he used nukes. This U.S. citizen people are whining about put himself at risk. He didn't have to flee. He could have remained in the United States with his son and challenged the U.S. government. If they had charged me with treason as an American citizen, I would have stayed in country and fought them. He fled though. So they must have had the goods on him.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:23 PM

14. It doesn't matter as long the rich get richer from all this.

That's the most important thing in the world.

Eat the rich.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:26 PM

15. I was against it too

I was against it too, but I think I was almost alone in my circle. It seems the idea that Iraq was linked to 9/11 was very ingrained.

I recall political ads on the radio for a candidate for political office who claimed to have seen the secret documents linking Sadam Hussein to Al Queda and Bin Laden.

I spend a lot of my time screaming "Has everyone gone insane?!" at the radio in those days.

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

55. OMG, the "secret documents" linking SH to AQ and Bin Laden? Bin Laden had issued a

 

fatwa against Saddam Hussein, for fuck's sake. SH and OBL were mortal enemies of one another, mainly b/c SH was a secularist and OBL was a religious nut.

Those documents had to be really, really secret.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:26 PM

16. When BushCo decided preemptive war was okay, and all of our Senators agreed

that's when we were screwed and things have gone downhill from there.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:44 PM

17. Fortunately, voting for an insane war has disqualified people from becoming Secretary of State

Oh, wait...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:05 PM

35. Hi Manny!

This is all so wrong. The drones and the way we make war, I mean.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:33 PM

56. Kept her out of the Presidency, at least as long as people remember. - n/t

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:21 PM

66. We're already seeing posts here calling for her to run in 2016.

I even saw one person call for Hillary in 16 and Michelle in 24. Ignoring the fact that Michelle Obama has no political experience, I somehow doubt she would be any more to the left than her husband. I'm sorry, but Obama is not a good president. He's one of the best in my lifetime, but that just shows you how shitty the presidents have been. I'm still debating who was the lesser of two evils Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama? Both were pretty bad in my opinion, they were simply better than all the others.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #66)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:32 PM

68. No

Obama is a pretty good president as far as I'm concerned. Some things I haven't liked. But mostly ok with him.

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Response to Shivering Jemmy (Reply #68)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:36 PM

69. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

In my opinion he's been pretty poor. He's only better than his competition, but that isn't saying much when you are going up against McCain and Romney.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:45 PM

71. I get your perspective

Totally. I'm not going to lambast you for it. Probably we agree on which areas Obama has not been good but disagree on the degree to which we weight those failures. Still I think the critique you offer is good in that it applies pressure in the right direction.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:56 PM

18. Absolutely yes we will.

What goes around comes around. Happens again and again.

Our children and grandchildren will rue the day that Obama started using drones for war outside of war zones.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:59 PM

19. Anyone with two working brain cells, listening to the rhetoric of the bu$h administration, knew

 

something was very wrong with what they were saying.
The rest of the world was coming to our aid and volunteered to organize a police investigation. The bu$h administration told them no, we would handle it.
So we attacked Iraq, starting with "Shock and Awe" which killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the middle of the night. Turning many into a pink mist which soon dried to a powder on the rubble, from the heat of the explosions.

Anyone that thinks 9/11 went down as the bu$h administration said it did, is at best, blindly ignorant of the facts, or at worst, a terrorist sympathizer, who has no problem with the senseless killing in the name of terror done by both sides.

How can we ever have peace by killing each other?

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Response to RC (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:29 PM

61. "The rest of the world was coming to our aid..."

I'll always remember the German ship Lutgens...



...We prepared to render them honors on the bridgewing, and the Captain told the crew to come topside to wish them farewell. As they were making their approach, our Conning Officer announced through her binoculars that they were flying an American flag. As they came even closer, we saw that it was flying at half-mast. The bridgewing was crowded with people as the Boatswain's Mate blew two whistles -Attention to Port- the ship came up alongside and we saw that the entire crew of the German ship were manning the rails, in their dress blues. They had made up a sign that was displayed on the side that read "We Stand By You".

http://www.farrockaway.com/remember.html

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:05 PM

21. K & R !!!

Yep...




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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:06 PM

22. I had another DU profile then, but I was here, and there were Iraq war supporters on this board

Needless to say, most of us thought they were nuts, but there definitely were debates.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:08 PM

23. Ironic I know, but the CIA agrees.

They have warned of...blowback.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #23)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:11 PM

36. Blowback will be called 'terrorism'

and we will bring down the hammer on somebody we blame, and the vicious cycle continues.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:19 PM

24. I was really drunk and sitting alone.

I saw the report on TV and I scribbled a note to myself.
It said- "World War 3 just started."

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:25 PM

25. We are rapidly erasing the thin veneer of civilization we once claimed and exposing our barbarism.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #25)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:27 PM

26. Maybe it's all for the best

Let people gaze on the rotten corpse and go from there instead of idolizing an illusion.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:32 AM

40. "America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening

"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization." Oscar Wilde

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #40)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:37 AM

41. "Tell Me, Mr. Gandhi, What Do You Think Of Western Civilization?"

"I think it would be a good idea."

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Response to Catherina (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:19 AM

43. Except that many maybe even most will just pretend the corpse is angelic perfection

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

47. Sadly yes

But all the pretending in the world won't stop the stench, the worms or the decomposition. So people can either live in lala-land or start facing reality so we can start dealing with this collectively.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 06:03 PM

78. Exactly

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:30 PM

27. We knew when the war started.... when warrantless wiretapping began.. .etc.

Great post.

We tried to tell them - in fact we marched October 26, 2002 - but we were told that we were being unPatriotic.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:39 PM

28. So was I. I didn't buy the WMD bs.

Scott Ritter and numerous others stated that Saddam had no WMDs, but of course the "liberal" media vilified and ignored them and went with the Bushies. Unfortunately, many Dems went along as well. Add in the privatization and the billions of dollars wasted on everything in that foreign policy disaster.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:39 PM

29. Our Slow Road To Perdition Is Ending In An Epic Conflagration

eom

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:50 PM

31. IMO, The only purpose of the Iraq War was to give the Bush administration some central purpose ....

... and also a reason to demand our support. Up until they started it, the Bush administration really had nothing going on. I recollect that at some point, Bush had something like 95% support for that war. Still unbelievable how so many people bought into that war.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:59 PM

33. It is the March of Empire. Nothing new under the sun. Solomon

Once started, it draws to it in one way or the other, those who sustain and promote it and it gains momentum. It was the early 60's...just the briefest of periods between the late 40s and 50s...when the Nazis gave way to the Communists. The extreme Right flipped to the extreme Left and barely a war beat was missed. Now the Communists are gone for whom we have substituted the Muslims/Arabs.

For those who have been listening to this same old same old for many decades, we hear the same stories of the atrocities of the newest set of bad guys. Bad, bad, bad. Same basic themes...and we are good, good, good and must deliver/liberate the good people. War has always been waged for riches for the upper class; land, people/slaves, taxes, oil, pipelines...whatever the currency of the era. The jingoism/rah rah is merely chatter for our own fearful, huddled masses.

Students of the Roman Empire find much in common with the American Empire. It will ultimately likely crumble from within. Imploding from the massive weight of taxes, poliltical and corporate corruption, military over-reach, lack of opportunity for the young, technology of destruction, and some other culture will begin the ascent...my guess would be China.

I've always found it interesting that world history is chaptered or sectioned off pretty much by the dates of war.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:11 PM

37. We will have little standing to complain . . .

We will have little standing to complain when some future superpower starts assassinating our people from killer drones in outer space. This self-justified murder by high technology has changed the World forever.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:19 PM

50. There aren't going to be any other future superpowers.


America will most certainly make sure of that.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:45 PM

74. You do realize . . .

You do realize, don't you, that all superpowers believe they will never be overtaken. At least they believe it while they still can.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #74)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 09:21 PM

82. There has never been a superpower like the USA.


Never, ever. It's ideology is too flexible for it to collapse. No-one's ever going to be able to catch up.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #82)

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 11:52 PM

83. "We are the greatest city, the greatest nation . . ."

The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.

The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
where the golden girls ran and the panels read:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.


It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
to warble: We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.

And while the singers sang
and the strong men listened
and paid the singers well
and felt good about it all,
there were rats and lizards who listened
... and the only listeners left now
... are ... the rats ... and the lizards.

And there are black crows
crying, "Caw, caw,"
bringing mud and sticks
building a nest
over the words carved
on the doors where the panels were cedar
and the strips on the panels were gold
and the golden girls came singing:

We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.

The only singers now are crows crying, "Caw, caw,"
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are ... the rats ... and the lizards.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:42 PM

84. Nice.


by who?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:53 PM

86. thank you!


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Response to sibelian (Reply #86)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:54 PM

87. You're very welcome.

Enjoy!

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:13 PM

38. Opposition to the Iraq war...

is what led me here and caused me to question all of my political beliefs. It is when I realized I wasn't really a republican.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:16 PM

39. I told everyone who would listen that if Bush II was given the presidency by the US Supreme Court...

....that 1) we would be in a war within two years, and 2) our budget surplus would disappear almost immediately, and 3) our financial system would collapse because of the strain produced by the new war.

I was loudly vilified and told I was full of it. I wonder what they're thinking now?

Do I feel vindicated that what I predicted came to pass? Certainly not for all of the victims of all nationalities of two wars in the Middle East and the countless covert ops around the world. Certainly not for all of the people who lost their jobs and then lost their homes to foreclosure. And certainly not personally because my family also fell under the wheels of the "new" economy.

History is a cruel taskmaster. All superpowers eventually get kicked to the curb. I don't know if it's our turn yet, but we're certainly getting a close look at the paving.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:49 AM

42. I was still a registered Republican

when 9/11 occurred. What Bush II implemented started my inevitable leaving of the GOP.

Sadly, I saw then like I see today that many Democrats enabled that and even applauded it. Human psychology always trumps rational thinking as this whole 'drone' issue is once more proving.

The lesser of two evils indeed.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:27 PM

46. It is worth noting that...

...not a single Democrat who OPPOSED the Invasion of Iraq
was appointed to a position of authority or power in the Obama Executive Branch.
The entire Obama White House is composed of Democrats who Got-It-Wrong .


Unfortunately, too many "Democrats" voted FOR the Invasion of Iraq.

Any "Democrat" who today hides behind the excuse that "Bush Fooled them"
is either:
1)Lying through their teeth

OR

2)Publicly admitting that they are much too much of an idiot to hold public office.


The Democratic Party made it possible for Bush-the-Lesser to stand before The World with a smirk on his face and correctly claim,
"The Democrats voted FOR it TOO!!!"
(How I cringed in shame every time I had to listen to THAT!)


The Democratic Party Honor Roll
These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the Republicans and The Industrial WAR Machine.

The Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq
(The Iraq War Resolution)


United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu





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Response to bvar22 (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 02:21 PM

58. Interesting that Leahy recently stood against filibuster reform. What does that suggest about

the WHOLE Democratic policy agenda?

.....................

PLEASE don't try to shame me for being pragmatic, not only will it not work, concrete pragmatic things affect the values of human life and freedom at least as much as drones do, just in different ways, so I'm hoping we can find something besides a divide and conquer approach to this that could very well result in there still being drone programs and even less social and economic justice than we currently have.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:58 PM

48. I'll be honest.

I sort of accepted it as the only practical method the UN Sec Council would EVER accept to get the goddamn sanctions that were starving Iraqi kids to death, removed.

About 6 months in, I realized that the war was not a better solution. Fucking horrified. No only was it 'as bad', but it was much, much worse. Now I know. Never again.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:27 PM

53. my dread or the future was 9/11 + what it would lead to.

the supreme court shose poorly.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 01:44 PM

57. Though that is what this is about to you & me. There are others for whom it is ABOUT THE WHOLE

Democratic policy agenda, so all of us will do what we are going to do and what will happen will happen to OPPOSE drone projects and we could STILL end up WITH drone projects and WITHOUT one whole hell of a lot of other human rights besides.

Please remember that the 1% have no political party and address the scenario above HYPOTHETICALLY.

One other thing that is relevant and that I don't often see mentioned is an assumption that is inherent in OP that the people will not change in any fundamentally functional way to deal with drone projects as an essential PART of their WHOLE legislative agenda.

Please do not try to shame me for being pragmatic and "not principled". I assure you that I am a very principled person who wants us to honor our principles RESPONSIBLY within strategically pragmatic processes.

One of the things that HAS been fucking us in EVERY way and will do so again in regard to our opposition to drone programs is ZERO SUM assumptions. That's DIVIDE AND CONQUER. It works every time and we CAN end up WITH drone programs and WITHOUT things like the right to organize, without Single Payer Health Care, without authentic PUBLIC EDUCATION and so very, very much more that, if the value of life means anything anywhere else in the world, it means just as much here in terms of other human rights.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 03:26 PM

59. When we saw no prosecutions for torture and the absurdist "don't look back" reasoning,

I knew we were headed for a deeper level of Hell.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:06 PM

63. Well, I didn't know how far it was going to go....

K&R

....but I knew it was all a lie in the beginning. Never, ever, actually, would I have expected that they would take this country so low. And now the drones. It's a never ending cycle of killing. Of one kind or another. Wars, drones, water-boarding and other kinds of torture. It just goes on and on and on. And I will say here and now what I truly believe: We are living in a military police state, and it is running our country. I will never believe that PO would freely go along with the escalation of the use of drones. Drones insure that the never ending war will continue on, and that we will always need the MIC to protect us. We're in effect being set up. AND we're paying for it.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:14 PM

65. Totally agree!

I too was against it from the start. The US doesn't (or didn't) start wars of aggression. There was no threat from Saddam and Iraq...none...zip...ZERO. Our command-in-thief at the time was s blathering idiot who didn't learn history. We meddled in Iran in the 50s and look what the got us??

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:26 PM

67. 911 was a Reichstage fire moment.

Granted it wasn't an inside job like the actual Reichstag fire was, but Bush and his cohorts in both parties manipulated it in pretty much the same way.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:44 PM

70. I knew going in they were lying about WMDs and ties to 9/11.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:15 PM

72. I want to thank everyone for responding to this thread...

I was so annoyed last night about the way things in this country have regressed. It is not all the GOP's fault. It's also the fault of the political leadership of the Democratic Party for letting this radial and class enmity fester for more than two decades before they figured it out.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:53 PM

76. I found this board around the time of the IWR

You might be surprised how many people argued in favor of the war, or at least the resolution around here - at least that's how I remember it.

On edit: my info says I joined in 2003, so I guess I was just lurking as of 2002.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 05:59 PM

77. The blow back started long time ago and continues today: in airports, in wiretaps, in drones...

in reluctant allies, in veteran hospitals, in Libyan riots and Algerian hostage crises, in Yemeni mailbomb plots and a far stronger al-Qaeda presense in Africa and Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan. By validating the paranoia of a dozen insane fundamentalist clerics, we've provided them with thousands of deluded followers.

In the middle of the 2004 election, I predicted on these boards that we'd spend most of the rest of this century cleaning up the mess that Bush and the neocons did in international relations and to America's reputation. We have only started that work. As seen in Libya, we still get two new fires for every fire we stamp out. We won't perceive any progress until we get that down to a 1:1 old fire to new fire ratio. That'll be a long time coming.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 07:00 PM

80. Not to mention that waging a 'War of Aggression' as Bush et al did is a WAR CRIME

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 07:20 PM

81. I was against Afghanistan too.

Afghanistan was planned well ahead of 9-11 as well as Iraq.

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