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Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:14 PM

Another Kind of Extra-Judicial Killing

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/01/calif-police-sniper-kills-kidnapper-who-was-holding-girl/1#.URLFpx1WyuI

Calif. police sniper kills kidnapper who was holding girl

A SWAT sniper killed an armed kidnapper who was holding the 11-year-old daughter of his ex-girlfriend, whom he abducted early today in the heart Silicon Valley, the San Jose Mercury News reports.

The girl, identified as Taylor Vo, was taken at gunpoint from her home about 1:20 a.m. PT (4:20 a.m. ET) by 42-year-old Tri Truong Le, police said. The girl was unharmed.


Such shootings by police snipers in hostage situations occur with some regularity in the United States. Every last one of them is extra-judicial, and happens when the risk to a hostage or hostages is deemed by police at the scene to require deadly force. Generally, someone at a relatively high rank gives a sniper permission to fire if an opportunity presents itself.

Such shootings are almost always determined later to be justified by a court or other body.

You can find more such incidents by Googling "police sniper kills" hostage.

They don't happen every day, by any means, but they do happen, and are virtually always extra-judicial. Often, they save a life or lives, by taking one. Are such shootings wrong? That depends on how you look at them, I guess, and on the individual situation, but they occur regularly.

It seems to me that blanket condemnation of such actions is not wise. That is why I am taking no position on this topic in general, especially as it applies to our military, when in operation outside the US. I do not have adequate information to make a call on these, and I'm unwilling to make a blanket statement about them.

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Arrow 81 replies Author Time Post
Reply Another Kind of Extra-Judicial Killing (Original post)
MineralMan Feb 2013 OP
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #1
Recursion Feb 2013 #2
Vincardog Feb 2013 #9
Recursion Feb 2013 #11
Vincardog Feb 2013 #14
Recursion Feb 2013 #19
Vincardog Feb 2013 #30
Recursion Feb 2013 #33
markpkessinger Feb 2013 #44
Recursion Feb 2013 #52
MineralMan Feb 2013 #3
99Forever Feb 2013 #10
MineralMan Feb 2013 #16
99Forever Feb 2013 #32
MineralMan Feb 2013 #35
99Forever Feb 2013 #58
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #36
MineralMan Feb 2013 #37
Vincardog Feb 2013 #4
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #7
MineralMan Feb 2013 #12
Vincardog Feb 2013 #24
MineralMan Feb 2013 #27
randome Feb 2013 #31
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #20
Vincardog Feb 2013 #26
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #34
Vincardog Feb 2013 #40
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #50
Vincardog Feb 2013 #57
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #62
Vincardog Feb 2013 #64
markpkessinger Feb 2013 #47
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #5
MineralMan Feb 2013 #6
mike_c Feb 2013 #8
MineralMan Feb 2013 #13
mike_c Feb 2013 #21
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #42
MineralMan Feb 2013 #45
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #51
Recursion Feb 2013 #22
mike_c Feb 2013 #25
Recursion Feb 2013 #29
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #39
Recursion Feb 2013 #41
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #49
Recursion Feb 2013 #54
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #66
SidDithers Feb 2013 #15
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #38
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #17
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #43
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #68
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #73
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #80
Marr Feb 2013 #18
cali Feb 2013 #23
leftstreet Feb 2013 #28
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #56
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #67
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #70
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #75
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #69
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #71
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #72
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #74
Marr Feb 2013 #77
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2013 #79
Marr Feb 2013 #81
malaise Feb 2013 #46
MineralMan Feb 2013 #48
malaise Feb 2013 #65
FarCenter Feb 2013 #53
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #61
Kalidurga Feb 2013 #55
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #59
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #60
barbtries Feb 2013 #63
slackmaster Feb 2013 #76
MineralMan Feb 2013 #78

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:15 PM

1. They are not extra-judicial.

Imminent threat is a well-defined concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defence_in_international_law

The imminent threat is a standard criterion in international law, developed by Daniel Webster as he litigated the Caroline affair, described as being "instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." The criteria are used in the international law justification of preemptive self-defense: self-defense without being physically attacked first (see Caroline test). This concept was introduced to compensate the strict, classical and inefficient definition of self-defense used by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, which states that sovereign nations may fend of an armed attack until the Security Council has adopted measures under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:18 PM

2. They are entirely extra-judicial

A homicide by a state agent without a trial is "extra-judicial". That's what it means. There was not a legal judgement on the subject's guilt; it was deemed necessary for security reasons.

Note that all cases of self defense are by definition extra-judicial.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/extrajudicial


ex·tra·ju·di·cial (kstr-j-dshl)
adj.
1. Outside of the authority of a court.
2. Outside of the usual judicial proceedings.
extra·ju·dicial·ly adv.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

9. IF they were outside the authority of the court how would it be required that:

Such shootings are almost always determined later to be justified by a court or other body. Are you claiming that when a police snipper takes out a target that is the end of the process?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:23 PM

11. No, and as we're seeing a drone strike is hardly the end of the process either

Though, far too often, whatever the cop says is just taken as true.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:26 PM

14. Please link for me the judicial review of these drone strikes. The authority claimed is

exclusive and unaccountable.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:28 PM

19. This was leaked because the Senate subpoenaed it

Generally it's the Legislative branch that oversees the Executive, and we're seeing that happen now.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:43 PM

30. What was leaked was the Administration's claim of an legal reasoning behind an unconstitutional

power. The power claimed in to take these actions without notice or review.
We are not seeing executive oversight of these claimed powers.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:45 PM

33. Yes, we are. That is what we are seeing right now

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2013/02/senators-ask-obama-for-legal-opinions-oking-drone-156084.html?hp=t3_3

http://images.politico.com/global/2013/02/04/senskillopsltr.html

Legislative oversight of Executive actions. There will be a legal tug of war for the next several months and eventually somebody will give up. That's how it works.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:59 PM

44. The administration has taken the position . . .

. . . that it is under no obligation even to disclose these targeted assassinations, let alone submit to any ex post facto review of them.

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:05 PM

52. Of course they have. And the Senate is disagreeing

Congressional oversight has worked this way since Washington's administration.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:19 PM

3. Imminent threat is not decided by any

judicial authority in these cases. It is decided by the police. It is, by definition, extra-judicial. In fact, such cases sometimes end up in court later. Almost always, they are determined to be justified.

What qualifies as an "imminent threat" is not well-defined, either. Such decision are made in the field, sometimes wrongly, I imagine. Such decisions are made tactically, not judicially.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

10. Correct.

It seems however, that the True Believers can justify the same immoral behaviors they once were indignantly outraged by, simply because it's our guy doing it. It makes it quite clear to me just how thin their mask of moral superiority really is.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:27 PM

16. I am neither justifying nor condemning anything.

I'm raising a question. I clearly stated that I have not formed an opinion so far on this.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:44 PM

32. If I am directing a comment to you personally...

... I will address you by name. This ain't all about you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:46 PM

35. That's funny.

Any post you make in the thread I started is a reference to that thread, and I will reply if I wish.

ETA: I mistakenly thought this was regarding #5 in the thread. So, I edited my comment.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:25 PM

58. Good grief.

Did I say you couldn't reply?

Defensive much?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:48 PM

36. Take a breath before responding to 99 ...

I know what's running through your mind.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:49 PM

37. Yah. I edited my post.

I was thinking of another reply. #5 in this thread. My mistake, so I edited.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:19 PM

4. My problem is with the claim that the Administration can do them without review or oversight.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

7. This.

If a cop shoots someone, there is an investigation. If it is found that the cop acted inappropriately, all kinds of things can happen, right up to murder charges.

If the drone strikes are necessary for security reasons, then investigate them retroactively, and throw the president in jail if he abused the power.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:24 PM

12. That's an interesting point.

There is always oversight of the military, and on a number of levels. As for review, it seems to me that there is plenty of review that is ongoing already. The nature of and findings of those reviews are things for which I have no access.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:36 PM

24. These acts are not limited to the military in a declared war. The authority claimed to

justify them is not constitutional.
If it is a war power where is the declaration of the war?
If it is the war on terror; where are the limits on personnel place or time?
How can it ever end?

How are these claimed unconstitutional powers not applicable to the "War on Drugs"?

The "war powers" and the "national Security requirements" are the cloak behind which hides dictatorial authority.


When people ask "where were the people of Germany when the nuts took over"?
We are there. It happens by small steps.
Each one incrementally worse until the end result is a horror beyond belief.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:38 PM

27. Again, you raise good points, for which I have no ready answer.

As I said, I'm not taking any position at all on this. I'm still considering what position to take.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:43 PM

31. Congress gave up that authority, remember?

They gave the Executive Branch their power to declare war.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:29 PM

20. Wouldn't that oversight and/or review ...

come at the next election? If the American electorate deem the policy legitimate, the administration enacting it would go unscathed; however, if the electorate deemed the policy illegitimate, it will be punished at the polls. This, admittedly, is by no means a "judicial" judgement; but it does represent a measure of oversight/review, even if the specific facts of the secific action are not reviewed or even known.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:37 PM

26. Are we to surrender all oversight to the Black Box voting machines?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:46 PM

34. Are we to have any more faith in a bought and paid for judiciary?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:55 PM

40. I am arguing that the powers claimed are illegal and unconstitutional. The actions should be

Prohibited not reviewed. The fact that they are irrevocable decisions made on secret information without review indicates that the policy should be forbidden not reviewed.

This is about killing people outside a (declared or implied) war zone guilty of nothing more than Suspicion or accusation. Remember all the evidence of WMDs?

Remember the Committee on UnAmerican activities?

They would be illegal unconstitutional acts even if they were rubber stamped by a "court" like FISA.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:03 PM

50. Would the actions be constitutional had ...

the tool of death been a Seal Team attempting to arrest the suspect, but killing him/her instead?

BTW the "declared or implied war zone criteria is out-moded in that a nation-state cannot "declare war" against non-nation state organizations.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:20 PM

57. If the "war zone is out-moded" what is the source of the "War Powers"? A Seal Team

Does not do arrests police do arrests.

The problem is the executive is claiming "war powers" to circumvent limits places on it by the Constitution. If a war is declared, there are limits on it by treaty.
The Executive wants the freedom of "War Powers" absent the responsibility of our treaties. Enemy prisoners have rules on how and for how long they can be held.
Enemy combatants are defined on the battle field.

I oppose giving the Executive unlimited power in an unending universal "war".l

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:37 PM

62. The source of the War Powers ...

is the U.S. Constitution ... a document written 250 years ago, where "War" was limited to actions between nation-states, not multi-national organizations.

A Seal Team Does not do arrests police do arrests. The Executive wants the freedom of "War Powers" absent the responsibility of our treaties. Enemy prisoners have rules on how and for how long they can be held. Enemy combatants are defined on the battle field.


So the distinction is modality of death?

BTW, we agree ... I, also, oppose giving the Executive unlimited power in an unending universal "war". I just don't see this as an Executive's exercise of unlimited power in an unending universal "war".

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:42 PM

64. Then we must be seeing two different things. The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.

Where is the war declaration?

If this is a "new" kind of war where does the authority come from?
What rules apply?
When does it end?
Where does it occur?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:00 PM

47. . . . and without even necessarily disclosing that they occurred n/t

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:20 PM

5. A ladle of weak sauce

I think I've seen this ploy used by the right. Are you channeling the mineral man of yore?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

6. I'm bringing something up for discussion.

Is it weak sauce? I don't know. And I have no idea of the point behind your last sentence.

If you would care to address what I brought up, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. I'm not interested in discussing vague insults with you.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

8. every such killing is subject to external oversight and accountability....

Nice try, but your example is a false equivalent.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:25 PM

13. Actually, there are many levels of

oversight and review in military actions. Those include congressional investigations and internal review by the military itself. Public review is also ongoing, although the available information for that is rather limited.

Every action like this undergoes review by the military. In the same way, police sniper shootings are always reviewed by an internal board. Sometimes, but not always, there is also an independent judicial review. Having been in the military, I have seen such reviews of actions firsthand. It's very rare that any operation is not reviewed.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:29 PM

21. except that the Obama administration has just asserted that it is NOT SUBJECT...

...to those forms of oversight, and can in fact perform extrajudicial killings in complete secret if it chooses. I'm sorry, that is precisely the sort of authoritarian abuse that the constitution was designed to protect U.S. citizens from.

Are you unaware of the real issues we're discussing here? Your response makes that seem likely.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:56 PM

42. It seems some are deliberately missing you point ...

I say deliberately because it is clear there is the same level of review/oversight, even more, as with the police sniper scenario that you raise.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:59 PM

45. Yes. Anyone with military experience is aware of the review process

conducted after every operation. It's internal, just as the police review board is internal.

External review, too occurs in both cases, and is occurring right now in Congress. It takes a helluva lot of time, doesn't it?

People are ignoring, too, that I have not stated an opinion on this, since I have not formed a solid one yet. Somehow, some folks seem to think that I'm in favor of drone strikes. I am not, nor am I opposed to them. I have not formed a solid position so far.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:05 PM

51. Black and white thinking ...

seems a lot easier these days, huh?

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Response to mike_c (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:29 PM

22. We know about this because the Senate subpoenaed it

So, other than the actual oversight that is currently happening that is the reason we know about this, you're right, there's not oversight

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:36 PM

25. it was leaked to NBC....

eom

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Response to mike_c (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:40 PM

29. After it was delivered to the Senate

They're doing their investigation, and somebody decided to leak in the process.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:54 PM

39. What was leaked was not what the Senate asked for and as Wyden points out... this "white memo"

still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:55 PM

41. Right, but this what the Senate got last summer, so oversight has been going on for a while.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:03 PM

49. Wyden finds the memo inadequate thus oversight is hampered.

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-statement-on-doj-memo-on-the-killing-of-americans-during-counterterrorism-operations

“As I and ten other senators told the President yesterday, if individual Americans choose to take up arms against the United States, there will clearly be some circumstances in which the President has the authority to use lethal force against those Americans, just as President Lincoln had the authority to use force against the Confederate Army during the Civil War. At the same time, it is vitally important for Congress and the American public to have a full understanding of how the executive branch interprets this authority, so that Congress and the public can decide whether the President’s power to deliberately kill American citizens is subject to appropriate limitations and safeguards. Every American has the right to know when their government believes that it is allowed to kill them.

“The Justice Department memo that was made public yesterday touches on a number of important issues, but it leaves many of the most important questions about the President’s lethal authorities unanswered. Questions like ‘how much evidence does the President need to decide that a particular American is part of a terrorist group?’, ‘does the President have to provide individual Americans with the opportunity to surrender?’ and ‘can the President order intelligence agencies or the military to kill an American who is inside the United States?’ need to be asked and answered in a way that is consistent with American laws and American values. This memo does not answer these questions.

“I will continue to press the Administration to provide Congress with any and all legal opinions that outline the President’s authority to use lethal force against Americans, and I will not be satisfied until I have received them. I have not yet received an official response to the letter than I sent to Deputy National Security Advisor Brennan on this topic three weeks ago, but I look forward to raising the issue with him again at his nomination hearing this Thursday.”

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:08 PM

54. Yes. It's his job to ask for more, and WHC's job to fight that

This is how oversight happens. It's not elegant or awe-inspiring.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:17 PM

66. Oversight happens when the person or persons is given adequate information to provide oversight.

Hampering oversight is not how it happens, it is how to make it NOT happen. So no. Oversight is not happening and hasn't been happening. Wrangling between two presumably equal branches of is what is happening.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:26 PM

15. DU rec...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:49 PM

38. The reflexive nature of your recs

Embarrassing...

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:27 PM

17. A review is done almost immediately after all...

hostage crisis situations where someone is killed.

There are situations in life where IMMEDIATE ACTION is necessary. Drone strikes against american citizens are not one of them. Apples and oranges.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:58 PM

43. No ...

It would seem that the "vetting" of the action occurs well before the action.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:32 PM

68. By whom?

You and I agree that there is time be for these killings. These people are put on a list and then sought out. If that is the case why the hell should it be done without judicial review.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:54 PM

73. Two reasons ...

off the top of my head:

First, the time factor, and secondly, the secrecy factor.

But let's face it ... whomever seats on the judicial process will be met with the same distrust, to those that believe this action wrong, as the military and civilian authorities currently reviewing/overseeing the process.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #73)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:08 AM

80. I disagree on one point....

and feel there is time for a judicial review before these killings happen. Many are put on a list and then sought out.

I could not agree more on this point:

"But let's face it ... whomever seats on the judicial process will be met with the same distrust, to those that believe this action wrong, as the military and civilian authorities currently reviewing/overseeing the process."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:28 PM

18. This is almost getting funny.

Some people are bending over backwards to find some other action that makes this alright. And every one of them is more pathetic and flawed than the last.

The Obama Administration is asserting that the President can order an American citizen killed, whether they're engaged in any hostile acts or not, or even in a combat zone. They simply decide the person may be a threat under some circumstance eventually, somehow, and that's it. No oversight at all.

This would be more like the Police Chief in your story sending his officers out to execute all the locals who had 11 year old daughters in order to prevent possible, eventual, abductions. Would you be comfortable giving the Police Chief that authority?

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Response to Marr (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:31 PM

23. More like embarrassingly silly.

And it's depressing that it's coming from some pretty bright people here.

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Response to Marr (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:40 PM

28. Watching Ardent Supporters™ defend this is hilarious

It shouldn't be funny, but it is

There's but a mere handful able to string together any decipherable defense. The rest just make increasingly lame and embarrassing comparisons.

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Response to Marr (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:18 PM

56. The better, more accurate comparison would be ...

the Police Chief sending out his SWAT Team to sit on a specific local who he, and his command staff, has evidence indicating that that specific local has kidnapped and plans to kill an 11 year old girl that and the order is given that if that specific local makes a move that can be interpreted as beginning to act on the local's threat to kill the child, he/she is to be stopped, i.e., shot.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:27 PM

67. Huh? The man has already committed the crime of kidnapping and if the local is armed, the

child is under immediate and imminent threat. Though the SWAT team may be in attendance, they wouldn't be the only team trying to solve the situation without violence. Law enforcement will first do all that it can to 1) convince the kidnapper to release the child and, 2) surrender unarmed.

I think you watch too much TV.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:46 PM

70. Maybe ...

and maybe you have not lived enough life.

It was you attempting to apply a sanitized analogy using the Police Chief, acting as if the target was merely a unvetted suspect. In real life, the level of scrutiny to do this type of thing goes far beyond a mere suspicion.

But I susect you know that ... but it doesn't lay well in the OUTRAGE.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:56 PM

75. In regards to level of scrutiny: So it is claimed but neither we nor our representatvies are allowed

to know. How outrageously democratic!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:46 PM

69. Watched a lot of 24?

Your scenario assumes the authorities information and motivations are de facto valid. We have a system of checks and balances because no such assumption can, or should be made. "Trust us" didn't used to cut it in the good old USA.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:48 PM

71. Never seen it ...

and it seems it is you that wishes to ignore that there ARE checks and balances, albeit, non-judicial.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:53 PM

72. Did you read the paper???

It pretty much says "we can do this anytime, anywhere, without oversight or review". Wise up.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #72)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:55 PM

74. Okay. n/t

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:15 PM

77. No, it would be to have them executed on suspicion that he *might* do something someday.

That is what the memo describes. The Administration claims the right to target American citizens, whether they are engaged in any hostile action or not. Whether they are in a combat zone or not. With no review.

They specifically state in that memo that a complete lack of evidence is not a problem, so your analogy is pure bullshit.

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Response to Marr (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:57 PM

79. You are reading what is not there ...

They specifically state in that memo that a complete lack of evidence is not a problem


Talk about histronic bullshit!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #79)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 11:27 AM

81. Quote:

"The condition that an operational leader presents an 'imminent' threat of violence attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future."

You didn't even read it before you started excusing it, did you?

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:00 PM

46. You're still lucky

Here the cops always remember to say that it was self defense and the 'gunman' attacked them with gun X, Y C

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Response to malaise (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:02 PM

48. You appear to have missed the fact that I was talking about

hostage situations and snipers, not the run of the mill police shooting that doesn't involve anything like that.

I'm discussing a very specific situation, where the shooter cannot possibly claim self defense. A sniper shoots to kill after receiving orders to do so, just as whoever is piloting a drone does so on orders.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #48)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:43 PM

65. I got it but was pointing out that extra-judicial killings are

frightening normal in some places with or without hostages

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:06 PM

53. If the drone pilot makes a mistake, the President can use the power of pardon anyway

So long as the killing is done outside the United States border, any criminal charges would have to be Federal ones, since no State court has jurisdiction. Therefore the President can choose to pardon the drone pilot in the case of any Federal offense. So long as the President is reasonably careful in who is on the targeting list and so long as the miltary/CIA are reasonably careful in carrying out the policy, no Congress is going to impeach.

So judicial oversight is moot.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:31 PM

61. "So long as the President is reasonably careful in who is on the targeting list" = Orwellian.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:13 PM

55. Another Kind of Extra-Judicial Killing...

Oh look it says right in the header that is is another kind or a different kind of extra-judicial killing. Looks like we can compare and contrast them.

I saw a lone DUer assert that snipers are murderers. This was after that famous sniper was murdered. I rather take exception to that. A sniper may be a murderer or a sniper maybe a person that saves the lives of hostages.

Killing US citizens that aren't in the US with drones might be somewhat the same. It could be murder or it could save lives. We really won't know which it is.

I think there needs to be some checks and balances in place on drone killing even if it is after the fact. I don't have a problem so much with the US citizen part. I don't think the life of a US citizen is worth more than the life of any other person. We need this oversight to extend even to non-US citizens IMO.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:28 PM

59. Ignores the concept of imminent danger

And quite desperate

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:29 PM

60. I think we have clear evidence that: 1. Pilots are not police; 2. Drone hits aren't sniper-accurate;

3. Drones generally do not stop crimes-in-progress, as this SWAT sniper did;

4. And finally, drone hits do not allow for the voluntary surrender of the accused; i.e., for the willing cessation of the illicit activity.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 05:38 PM

63. yep.

i am in a general sense distraught about drone killings. i have not read the white paper nor engaged in any conversation however and i think your position as stated works for me as well.

on the other hand it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where i would think it's okay, particularly given the fact of innocent victims. i worry about the people carrying out these strikes, what it does to their humanity. i really don't think it should be easy to kill a human being. no, it should be very, very difficult.

sometimes i think i am either centuries behind or millenia ahead of the rest of the human race.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:56 PM

76. The purpose of a police sniper shooting a suspect in that situation is not to kill the suspect

 

It's to make the suspect STOP whatever he or she is doing that is putting innocent lives at risk.

If the suspect happens to die as a result of the shooting, that is an unfortunate unintended consequence of a desperate action that is taken only when all other options have been exhausted.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #76)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:43 PM

78. You are incorrect.

In those police situations, the shot is always made. to kill. Anything less does not end the threat to the hostages.

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