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Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:22 PM

All the King's Drones

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/all-the-kings-drones-15063268?click=pp

By Tom Junod

And I do mean “king,” because anyone who takes the time to read the leaked white paper will be struck by how ancient, how almost Shakesepearan are its concerns. For all the Obama Administration’s efforts to characterize “targeted killing” as a modern solution to a modern problem, the white paper suggests that its real quandary with regard to citizens who have taken up with the enemy is as old as power itself: how to eliminate them without being accused of murdering them. Much has been already been made of the white paper’s expansive notions of “imminent threat.” And much will be made -- or should be made -- of the white paper’s advocacy of the position that the only person qualified to decide whether a targeted citizen’s rights to due process are being violated is the “informed, high-level official of the United States government” who has decided to target him. But what’s most striking about the white paper is that it mentions, for the first time, the context in which the pre-emptive killing of targeted individuals must necessarily take place, and that is the context of murder and assassination.

A lethal operation against an enemy leader undertaken in national self defense or during an armed conflict that is authorized by an informed high-level official...would fall within a well-established variant of the public authority justification and therefore would not be murder.

Such an operation would not violate the assassination ban in executive order No. 1233 ... A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination.


That the white paper acknowledges the possibility that “an informed, high-level official” who has selected an American citizen for “targeting” might be coming up against the oldest moral prohibition of all doesn’t mean, of course, that he has stepped over the line and violated it. What it does mean is that the shade of murder and assassination has always loomed over the Lethal Presidency of Barack Obama, and the Lethal Presidency knows it. The white paper offers a legal opinion, not a moral one, but the questions that it tries to answer are moral indeed:


Read more: All the King's Drones -- Obama's Drone White Paper - Esquire http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/all-the-kings-drones-15063268#ixzz2K4d77iOW

41 replies, 2023 views

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Arrow 41 replies Author Time Post
Reply All the King's Drones (Original post)
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 OP
WillyT Feb 2013 #1
woo me with science Feb 2013 #2
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #5
woo me with science Feb 2013 #7
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #8
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #12
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #13
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #14
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #16
The Link Feb 2013 #17
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #19
The Link Feb 2013 #20
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #21
bvar22 Feb 2013 #25
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #26
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #27
bvar22 Feb 2013 #28
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #30
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #31
bvar22 Feb 2013 #32
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #34
woo me with science Feb 2013 #35
Marr Feb 2013 #29
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #37
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #38
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #39
Summer Hathaway Feb 2013 #40
bvar22 Feb 2013 #41
MadHound Feb 2013 #3
MNBrewer Feb 2013 #6
bobduca Feb 2013 #22
2on2u Feb 2013 #4
bvar22 Feb 2013 #9
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #10
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #11
jsr Feb 2013 #15
WillyT Feb 2013 #18
woo me with science Feb 2013 #36
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #23
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #24
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #33

Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:23 PM

1. K & R !!!


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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:26 PM

2. This is something that should outrage ALL Americans.



When will we have had enough, that we stop circling the wagons?

When will we have had enough, that we stand up together, as Americans, regardless of party, to oppose this shit?

When?

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:52 PM

5. When will you?

You're an expert when it comes to pointing out what's wrong, in your opinion, with everything and everyone.

But other than posting your constant complaints on a message board, what are YOU doing about anything?

It seems that those who complain about the lack of leadership in changing things to their liking are the same people who invariably come down to "as soon as everyone else starts standing together to oppose what I don't like, I'll be right behind them."

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:54 PM

7. ROFL!

Did you like my outfit this morning?

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:02 PM

8. Your outfit?

Meaning you don't have the appropriate wardrobe to do anything other than post your complaints on a message board?

I suppose I should just take your response to mean that you don't actually have a response. No surprise there.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:32 AM

12. You seem to know what woo does or does not do outside the confines of DU so,

you must know what woo is wearing.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:54 AM

13. I don't know where you got that from

Really. I commented about how he constantly complains on DU, but doesn't seem to ever actually DO anything - other than complain on a message board.

How that equates to knowing what he does outside the confines of his keyboard warriorship escapes me.

But then conspiracy theories run deep among some, as totally inane as they may be.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:00 AM

14. If you KNOW that in real life that he doesn't do anything...

then you must KNOW him in real life and thus KNOW what outfit he is wearing.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:20 AM

16. Oh, I get it now!

I am supposed to assume that someone who whines constantly on a message board about everything they don't like is, in RL, a fierce leader among men whose every spare moment (when he's not whining on DU) is devoted to active participation in furtherance of his beliefs for positive change.

Sorry, ain't buying it. Not for a second.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:23 AM

17. You are whining on a message board.

 

Ironic, huh?

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Response to The Link (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:44 AM

19. Actually, no, I'm not.

But if that's your best comeback, the record will speak for itself.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:45 AM

20. Yes, you are.

 

And it is becoming incessant whining.

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Response to The Link (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:49 AM

21. Nice try.

No cigar.

(Well, to be honest, it wasn't even a nice try.)

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:45 AM

25. Nope. Big Cigar for a direct hit.

There is always some substance to Woo's posts,
unlike your petulant little performance in this thread.

Do you believe the Democrats are beyond criticism on THIS issue?
I don't.

Having been a Democrats for 46 years,
having donated to democrats for 46 years,
having campaigned for Democrats for 46 years,
having GOTV for Democrats for 46 years,
it is my personal opinion that the Democratic Party has earned a LOT of criticism from its rank & file membership.

If YOU don't, then that is your opinion.
You can start all the threads you want praising the Democratic Party for their wonderful representation of your issues,
but those of us in the Working Class who feel ignored by our Party are entitled to criticize and demand that OUR voices be heard.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed





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Response to bvar22 (Reply #25)


Response to bvar22 (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:49 PM

27. It seems I'm the one who scored the direct hit

I asked Woo if he actually DOES anything to further what he believes needs changing, aside from posting his complaints on a message board.

That seems to have struck quite a few nerves - but then I guess there are a lot of message board complainers who actually never DO anything other than post their complaints on political websites.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:53 PM

28. It seems !!??

It SEEMS????

It SEEMS.....to YOU???

Nobody here is answerable to you.
Nobody has to perform for your pleasure.
Nobody has to do as you command.
If somebody chooses to ignore your demands or accusations,
that is not an admission of guilt.


Who are these people who only post on DU and never do anything else?
Are you speaking for yourself?
...because that is the ONLY person you can speak for on DU.

Can you document your claims about these lazy people who exist in your speculations and only post on DU and do nothing else?
Are you comfortable posting your personal fantasies about other members of DU with whom you disagree?

I'm not, and I choose not to do so.
You, of course, are free to set the bar for your own personal behavior as low as you wish.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:59 PM

30. Excellent.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 08:07 PM

31. Wow.

Talk about hitting a nerve.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:05 AM

32. YES. You DID hit a nerve!

Posting derogatory fabrications about other members of our community simply because YOU disagree with them is not something I take lightly.
You can't just make up anything you want, use it to attack other DUers,
and then expect to be taken seriously and have your opinions treated with respect.

I take this offense seriously.
So should you,
and so should all the other members of DU.

Not cool,
and a Major FAIL.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 02:24 AM

34. Derogatory fabrications?

I asked Woo if he ever does anything about his political convictions, or if he restricts his activisim to posting his complaints on a message board.

He could have responded to the question or not, as was his call. He chose not to.

The non-response does lead me to a certain perception, which could be correct or incorrect, but it is my perception nonetheless.

I don't know what you think I've "fabricated" or "made up", or how asking Woo a question is somehow "an attack".

But these are indeed strange times, if only here on DU.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 03:28 AM

35. Can't believe I missed the rest of this thread 'til now.

That was certainly a display.

Thank you, bvar22, Luminous Animal, The Link, and Marr for smacking down that kind of behavior on what's supposed to be an adult discussion board.

You guys give me hope for this place.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:56 PM

29. How the fuck would you know what any poster does?

What an asinine comment.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 03:47 AM

37. So, you have nothing of any substance to say or add and resort to a completely specious

 

attack on the writer asserting inaction you have absolutely no knowledge of one way or another.

Why? Because he was mean to your imaginary boyfriend?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:10 AM

38. I asked if someone

actually IS a political activist - or only plays one on the internet.

The fact that so many consider that question to be "an attack" speaks for itself.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:26 AM

39. No, you did attack him for expressing his opinion and understanding that this is a terrible

 

injustice. That this is an action recognized as a crime, since long before this nation even existed, by the entire civilized world, and that it is done in our name. The fact that you and so many others either don't understand that or believe that it is OK because this President is a Democrat is truly disturbing.

It undermines the very concept of international diplomacy as an alternative and makes outright war much more likely. It is the kind of insane, fantasy based assertion of might makes right that terrified the world when shrub was in office.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:38 AM

40. I "attacked" no one.

I asked if he DOES anything about what he perceives to be wrong, other than posting his complaints on a message board.

I said absolutely nothing about actions that can be recognized as a crime, what is done in our name, or the idea that something (?) is okay because the president is a Democrat - nothing.

But please feel free to continue arguing about things that were never said.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #40)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:28 PM

41. But you never answered the question:

Did you like Woo's outfit this morning ?






You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:30 PM

3. But it is Obama exercising this extrajudicial power,

 

So it is all good, there is a D behind his name.

Never mind the future, when this power will fall into the hands of 'Pugs and other evil men. Never mind the fact that this further shreds the Constitution. Never mind the fact that all of this could come home, and anybody, anywhere, even the US, could be killed from above, simply on the say so of the President.

Gawd, Nixon would have loved having this power.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:53 PM

6. But we all know a Republican will NEVER occupy the White House again, right? So we're safe!

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:53 AM

22. HOORAY FOR PERMANENT DEMOCRATIC MAJORITIES

Kinder gentler extra-judicial killings until the end of time!11111

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:51 PM

4. Is this, yer either with us or you are against us redux??

 

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:23 PM

9. These new powers of our "Unitary Executive" don't just violate our Constitution,

they violate the Magna Carta of 1215.

Of course, the USA is not bound by the Magna Carta because we wouldn't be "discovered" by the Europeans for another 300 years,
and wouldn't become a country for another additional 300 years,
but you get the picture.

No leader of a democratic country has claimed the right to kill without oversight...
until now.

"The 1215 charter required King John of England to proclaim certain liberties and accept that his will was not arbitrary—for example by explicitly accepting that no "freeman" (in the sense of non-serf) could be punished except through the law of the land, a right that still exists."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta


When we WIN the "War of Terror",
and "Terror" finally surrenders and disbands its army,
will our Unitary Executive surrender these powers ?


This isn't a Slippery Slope.
This is Free Falling into a place no one wants to go except the Wealthy, Powerful, AND Connected.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:39 PM

10. Yep. "This is Free Falling into a place no one wants to go except the Wealthy, Powerful,

AND Connected"

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:25 AM

11. This is very very bad.

 

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:04 AM

15. "I Have A Dream" = "I Have A Drone"

Close enough for government work.

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Response to jsr (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:26 AM

18. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - WOW !!!




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Response to jsr (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 03:34 AM

36. +10000

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:56 AM

23. O brave new world, that has such drones in't. K&R

 

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Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 04:01 AM

24. Rand Paul called him that just the other day...

 

This President won a fair and free election.

You may disagree with a policy, which is very legal and authorized by Comgress...

But refrain from disrespecting the office of the President.

Make your argument without hyperbole and other juvenile behavior.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:37 AM

33. I'm an Occupy Wall Street activist. 7400+ of us have been arrested for peacefully

 

protesting true criminal activity among banks and wall street and the corrupt rich/capitalism run amok. Many have been bloodied in the process. The FBI have begun raiding our homes in search of "literature" and political prisoners have been taken (Chicago No NATO, Cleveland). Some have been held at length at gunpoint (Miami). DHS have apparently been telling police agencies (who are beholden to DHS through the iWatch program) that Occupy is a potentially terrorist organization. Two Veterans were very nearly killed in Oakland during militarized police attacks upon Occupy marches (Scott Olsen has permanent injuries). Federal agents were watching the Occupy Fights Foreclosures march behind the Rose Parade this year. HR347 makes it a federal crime with up to 10 years in prison for protesting where secret service are present. The NDAA section 1021 provides for the indefinite detention without trial or representation of US citizens suspected of terrorism or terrorist ties. Police and sheriff departments are being given armored vehicles and miltary weapons and tech by DHS, and are investigating the use of drones against the public.

And zero corrupt banksters/wall streeters have been arrested, much less charged. The income inequality described by OWS still exists, as does the Citizens United ruling. Glass-Steagall remains defeated. The majority of the economic recovery of the last few years has gone primarily to the very rich. Student loan debt has topped $1 trillion dollars. Many in this country are a single paycheck away from disaster. The illegal foreclosure engine continues to scoop up homes (and wall street are among the buyers at banks quarterly bulk sales).

I will not be silent.

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