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Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:29 PM

 

How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans,

“This is a profoundly disturbing document, and it’s hard to believe that it was produced in a democracy built on a system of checks and balances. It summarizes in cold legal terms a stunning overreach of executive authority – the claimed power to declare Americans a threat and kill them far from a recognized battlefield and without any judicial involvement before or after the fact,” Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU’s National Security Project, said in a statement."
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/02/05

So much for the Constitution, the rule of law. This administration has given the Executive Branch the power to kill any American citizen, virtually anytime, anywhere outside of the US, without due process or any sort of court interference.

Even if you think that this administration is completely righteous and just in this regard(it isn't, it has already killed an innocent sixteen year old US citizen), the fact that this administration has given the person who occupies the White House in the future the power to kill US citizens without due process, without even judicial review, should be chilling.

Imagine this power in the hands of somebody with the morals of, oh, say Nixon. The fact is, every single American citizen is now threatened by instant death the minute they step outside of this country. No judge, no jury, just on the word of the President or some other "informed, high-level official."

This country was already well on its way to shredding the Constitution, this decision just hastened that process. Of course there will be those who will defend this travesty simply because it comes from a president with a D behind its name. But the fact is, this is a travesty of justice no matter what party's president put this forth, and if you have an ounce of integrity, if you put our Constitution above party politics, you will protest this with every fiber of your being. After all, if you don't, next time you travel abroad, it could be you who winds up dead at the hands of your president.

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Reply How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans, (Original post)
MadHound Feb 2013 OP
limpyhobbler Feb 2013 #1
MadHound Feb 2013 #2
limpyhobbler Feb 2013 #3
MotherPetrie Feb 2013 #4
leftstreet Feb 2013 #5
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #6
leftstreet Feb 2013 #7
mwrguy Feb 2013 #9
MadHound Feb 2013 #11
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #22
mwrguy Feb 2013 #26
raindaddy Feb 2013 #33
ljm2002 Feb 2013 #69
MadHound Feb 2013 #10
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #37
MadHound Feb 2013 #42
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #44
MadHound Feb 2013 #46
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #47
MadHound Feb 2013 #48
unapatriciated Feb 2013 #84
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #21
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #30
Skittles Feb 2013 #76
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #8
MadHound Feb 2013 #12
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #13
MadHound Feb 2013 #14
randome Feb 2013 #15
MadHound Feb 2013 #16
randome Feb 2013 #17
MadHound Feb 2013 #18
randome Feb 2013 #19
MadHound Feb 2013 #23
randome Feb 2013 #24
MadHound Feb 2013 #40
LanternWaste Feb 2013 #86
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #25
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #72
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #31
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #20
MadHound Feb 2013 #41
Skittles Feb 2013 #77
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #82
woo me with science Feb 2013 #27
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #28
bobduca Feb 2013 #73
westerebus Feb 2013 #89
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #29
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #32
hack89 Feb 2013 #35
Ned Flanders Feb 2013 #34
woo me with science Feb 2013 #66
ljm2002 Feb 2013 #70
tama Feb 2013 #83
unapatriciated Feb 2013 #85
DirkGently Feb 2013 #36
stupidicus Feb 2013 #38
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #50
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #39
Zax2me Feb 2013 #43
MadHound Feb 2013 #45
Catherina Feb 2013 #52
MadHound Feb 2013 #54
Catherina Feb 2013 #68
jsr Feb 2013 #74
underthematrix Feb 2013 #56
MadHound Feb 2013 #59
Catherina Feb 2013 #62
Coyotl Feb 2013 #49
msanthrope Feb 2013 #51
MadHound Feb 2013 #53
msanthrope Feb 2013 #55
MadHound Feb 2013 #57
msanthrope Feb 2013 #58
MadHound Feb 2013 #60
msanthrope Feb 2013 #63
MadHound Feb 2013 #65
msanthrope Feb 2013 #67
Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #61
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #64
Flying Squirrel Feb 2013 #71
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #75
MadHound Feb 2013 #78
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #79
MadHound Feb 2013 #80
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #81
unapatriciated Feb 2013 #87
tpsbmam Feb 2013 #88

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:39 PM

1. abrogate - 1 : to abolish by authoritative action : annul 2 : to treat as nonexistent

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abrogate

So we can say the Obama administration has abrogated the right to due process.

I think that's right. Could be wrong though.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:42 PM

2. Thank you,

 

Long day with the kiddos sometimes turns my brain a bit mushy.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:45 PM

3. New word for me.

I just looked it up.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:49 PM

4. K&R

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:02 PM

5. Democrats would be shitting themselves if this was Bush n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:04 PM

6. Not me. I am not paranoid enough to believe the govt is killing innocent Americans...

 

These drones have taken out some truly despicable people.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:10 PM

7. So you approved of the Bush Admin's extrajudicial powers?

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:15 PM

9. Exactly. Obama is taking out terrorists, not innocent people

So many will gloss over that fact in their haste to beat up on the president.

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:23 PM

11. One out of three known US citizens who have been targets of this administration was innocent.

 

See post ten. This young man committed no crime, but was killed by this administration anyway.

Furthermore, do you endorse this huge violation of the Constitution? Since when do we execute anybody on the say so of one man.

Would you trust this power in the hands of Bush or any other Republican? Then why are you advocating for its use now?

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:56 PM

22. And you are confident of this, how? And even IF true, IT IS STILL UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

We are NOT in a declared war against an enemy state.

Do you know how the Baader-Meinhof Gang was stopped?

ARRESRS, TRIALS, AND IMPRISONMENT.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:07 PM

26. I have confidence in Obama and the top minds that he has brought on board his administration

This is not a bunch of hateful amateurs going off half-cocked like the last administration.

The adults are in charge now, they have the best intelligence and judgement available, and they are not making these decisions lightly.

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:24 PM

33. Confidence?

Why would we hand over our civil liberties to the Executive Branch? This isn't about your confidence in this President's basic goodwill. Unless you're willing to extend that "confidence" to the next republican who inherits these same powers... And don't forget some of these top minds were the same "top minds" in the Bush administration.

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:47 AM

69. Even "top minds" can make egregious errors of reasoning...

...especially when they are under pressure to take it a certain direction.

I refer you to "The Best and the Brightest" by David Halberstam, addressing the run-up to the Vietnam war, and all the errors and missteps made along by the "top minds" of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_and_the_Brightest

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Brightest-David-Halberstam/dp/0449908704

It's foolish indeed to have unquestioning faith in authority. Especially when that authority dismisses 900 years of precedent (i.e. the right of habeas corpus as spelled out in the Magna Carta). When a principle has been enshrined as long as that one has, serving as the basis of our belief in ourselves as free people, then we must question anyone who would do away with it, however apparently narrow the context may be and however smart we might consider that person to be.

Aside from all of that, another issue stands out. You say "The adults are in charge now". Even if we were to accept that as a good rationalization for this policy (which I do not), you fail to address the fact that this power, once granted to the President, will not be ceded by the next occupant of the Oval Office, nor the next, nor the next...

You simply cannot codify this sort of thing without undermining the rule of law altogether.

Of course IMO we have already crossed that bridge, so in that sense, it may be a moot point.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:20 PM

10. So what is this young man's crime?

 



Sixteen years old, no threat to the US, but killed anyway, possibly because of the fact who his father was.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097899,00.html

Even if you think that this administration is lily white and pure in this regard, the fact of the matter that killing a US citizen without regard to due process, simply on the say so of a high level administration official, a nameless, faceless individual, should scare the crap out of you. It is a major violation of our Constitution. Would you trust this power in the hands of Bush, or Romney, or any other 'Pug? Think about it, every president in the future, Republican or Democrat, good or bad, will have the capability to kill you, me, or any other US citizen, simply on their say so, the moment we step out of the country.

If that doesn't scare you, then you really should reassess your belief in the Constitution.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:43 PM

37. He was a terrorist disguised as a child - n/t

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:14 PM

42. WHAT!

 

I sincerely hope that is well disguised sarcasm, otherwise it shows not only how little you know about what is going on in regards to this abomination, but it also shows just how small your heart is.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:19 PM

44. I guess my sarcasm did not come through. I'm with George Orwell and

 

"Politics and the English Language" - just so you know my background,.

I voted Green in Nov. 2012 because of Obama's policy on drones abroad, fwiw.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:22 PM

46. My apologies then, my bad.

 

Sometimes it is getting harder and harder around here to tell who is serious and who is being sarcastic.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:24 PM

47. No worries. I will be renewing my membership to the ACLU tomorrow morning first thing. And

 

I'll be on the phone to Maxine Waters (my rep) and my two Senators, not that I expect anything whatsoever from any of that effort. But I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:25 PM

48. You won't be alone,

 

This is insanity.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #47)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:48 PM

84. Just renewed my membership.

I just moved to North Carolina and am not familiar with my reps yet. I doubt they care, but will be letting them know how I feel.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:55 PM

21. Well, aren't you just the clairvoyant.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:15 PM

30. You mean naive enough to believe they haven't.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:48 AM

76. you don't have to be paranoid - just naive

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:15 PM

8. How could he have been arrested and brought here for trial?

It isn't the first time the execution of Americans has been carried out without due process. Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde were killed in ambushes. At Ruby Ridge the order was given to shoot on sight. At Waco the gov't killed a bunch of little kids (collateral damage). And in Philadelphia an entire neighborhood was burned down to get at some radicals. And those were in the U.S. Drone strikes on an American in a foreign country is just another day at the office.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:26 PM

12. Every single one of those examples you listed had some sort of judicial review or involvement,

 

Warrants issued, subpoenas obtained. Judicial involvement, not just killed on the say so of some anonymous administration official.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:35 PM

13. I am sure that there was some sort of legal paperwork on the drone strikes.

Since when are warrants for execution without trial constitutional?

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:37 PM

14. No, there isn't.

 

No review by anybody in the judicial branch. It is done on the say so of the President or other "high level administration official". Oh, and the way the language reads, this could be coming home.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:41 PM

15. Better starting building a bunker then! And listen to Rush Limbaugh daily!

It's the only way to keep the government from getting its hands on you.

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Response to randome (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:45 PM

16. What does your screed have to do with extrajudicial drone killings?

 

What does it have to do with Obama shredding the Constitution?

Oh, that's right, Obama has a D behind his name, so for you, anything he does is all good.

Let me ask you this, would you trust this power in the hands of Bush, or any other 'Pug?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:49 PM

17. Power? Anybody can kill you at anytime for any reason.

That has always been the case. The case can easily be made that by codifying the conditions needed for self-defense, it makes it LESS likely that the government will suddenly start attacking 300 million Americans. Not MORE likely.

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Response to randome (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:51 PM

18. Stop trying to sidestep the question,

 

Would you trust Bush, or any other 'Pug with this power to act as judge, jury and executioner of any US citizen abroad?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:53 PM

19. It's irrelevant to me. Do you think Bush would have started a war with 300 million Americans?

On edit: okay, you said 'abroad'. Again, I don't get the sense that Obama is killing people indiscriminately. As for Bush, well the entire Iraq war was murder on a grand scale. He was given carte blanche by Congress to do what he wanted so, no, I would never have trusted Bush. That doesn't mean America should do NOTHING to stop terrorists abroad or at home.

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Response to randome (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:56 PM

23. So shredding the Constitution is irrelevant to you,

 

So why are you living in this country then? Why do you hate this country, our Constitution, and all it stands for? Seriously, if the Constitution is "irrelevant" to you, you need to find a new place to live. Because by that statement you have revealed that party politics means more to you than the Constitution, and you are willing to shred that Constitution just so long as your side "wins".

Sad, sad and disgusting.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:59 PM

24. I never said Obama was 'better' than anyone else, Democrat or otherwise.

I don't get the sense that he is killing people indiscriminately. Abuses can happen with any type of authority, of course, and you can probably say that abuse will ALWAYS happen eventually.

But in general I'm not afraid of law enforcement or the military.

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Response to randome (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:11 PM

40. Let's see, one third of the US citizens he has killed extrajudicially was an innocent US citizen,

 

A teenager, killed because he was either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or worse, because of who his father was. Either way, it was an indiscriminate killing.

While you may not be afraid of law enforcement or the military, not everybody has lived in your little happy bubble land, where everybody is treated well by the cops, or not killed for no good reason by our military.

Millions of people, both around the world and here at home have good reason to fear the cops and/or the military. Try asking the millions of brown skinned people in this country what the cops are like. Try asking the millions of people in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan how wonderful our military is.

Now this is all coming home to roost. Now US citizens can be killed indiscriminately, at the whim of the president. While you may not fear the police or military, you should at least have some concern about the shredding of our Constitution, which specifically promises due process before sentencing somebody to death.

That you aren't concerned about such matters, that you think of them as "irrelevant", says a lot about you, none of it good.

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Response to randome (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:08 PM

86. I imagine many people place their faith in justice in a mere hunch

"I don't get the sense that he is killing people indiscriminately..."

I imagine many people place their faith in justice in a mere hunch; which does indeed allow one to conveniently sidestep the actual consideration of justice itself.

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Response to randome (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:02 PM

25. Reductio ad absurdum.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:18 AM

72. Hell, how about charges? Can't fuss with an indictment?

Holy shit!

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:16 PM

31. We are better than that, sir.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:54 PM

20. I didn't read beyond the thread title, because I DON'T CARE WHAT CRAP THEY SPEW ON THIS.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #20)


Response to WinkyDink (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:49 AM

77. hoo boy

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Response to Skittles (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 08:03 AM

82. Hoo boy, what? I don't care to read any quasi-legal justification for this abomination.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:48 PM

27. Cherish the ACLU.

This is something that should outrage ALL Americans. We need to DESTROY this both in the courts and in the public square.


When will we have had enough, that we stop circling the wagons?

When will we have had enough, that we stand up together, as Americans, regardless of party, to oppose this shit?

When?

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:58 PM

28. Never, from what I can tell

In multiple threads, it's been pointed out by everyone from the Rude Pundit to Glen Greenwald that we wouldn't have put up with this crap from GWB without making a lot of noise. And yet, we have the usual suspects, along with a whole gaggle of 100-800-count posters allowing as how none of this matters to them, and they trust the president, etc, etc. This kind of vile weakness and cowardice turns my stomach. Do any of these SOB's have even a trace of backbone? If they did, they'd understand that sometimes the President is wrong, and it's incumbent on us to say so. But instead, we have people willing to sell whatever is there where their soul should be, in order to maintain some illusion that President Obama is perfect.


This is craven.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:30 AM

73. when this place gets *this* craven, you know someone is close to the truth.

A phone tree or two was definitely activated tonight.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #73)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:39 AM

89. We has all your internets.

More like the phone forest. Key phrase: enemy combatant.

welcome to DU

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:08 PM

29. So, if the gov't has such good cases against the "terrorists" why not hold open trials in absentia?

Before they order the victims killed.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:17 PM

32. At minimum

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:25 PM

35. It is illegal per federal law and unconstitutional per Crosby v. United States

The language, history, and logic of Rule 43 support a straightforward interpretation that prohibits the trial in absentia of a defendant who is not present at the beginning of trial... This case requires us to decide whether Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 43 permits the trial in absentia of a defendant who absconds prior to trial and is absent at its beginning. We hold that it does not.


http://aclu.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=2682

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:24 PM

34. Extrajudicial Executions

Long-time lurker here, finally prompted to create an account at DU and post something, because of this thread.

I guess we all have different backgrounds, different interests and skillsets, different viewpoints on things. But it is absolutely nuts that anyone could support giving the President the ability to convict and execute an American citizen without thorough, multi-agency review and trial of law. Schoolhouse Rock taught me about "checks and balances." I reckon many people feel that only applies when the bad guys are in office? Imagine Dubya with this power? Hell, maybe he did, via Cheney's rumored hit teams, but even he didn't try to codify it into law.

Sad. I was raised in a different country, one where we wore the white hat.

Flame on.

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Response to Ned Flanders (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:46 PM

66. + 1000000 Glad you came and posted.

It's time for ALL Americans to stand up, finally, against this garbage.

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Response to Ned Flanders (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:53 AM

70. Welcome to DU...

...nice first post!

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Response to Ned Flanders (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:16 AM

83. Wellcome to DU

 

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Response to Ned Flanders (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:02 PM

85. No flames from me.

can't say I disagree with anything you said.
welcome to DU.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:26 PM

36. Absolutely insane and utterly indefensible. As "un-American" as anything, ever.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:50 PM

38. yep, dembots sometimes differ little from rightwingnuts

in terms of what they are willing to hypocritically defend in the name of the "D".

When I first got involved on the "internets" discussing and debating such matters just after 9/11, during the lead up to the war in Iraq I use to suggest to my fellow lefties and dems that not only was it futile to try to defend against the "list" of Clinton and crew comments regarding Iraq wmd the rightwingnuts use to shove up their noses -- other than to note he didn't launch a war as a result of them -- it was also a tad hypocritical given the human costs Albright thought "was worth it".

The fact of the matter is as I always argued it, Bush wouldn't have been able to sell his wmd lies butfor the splendid work Clinton did selling his. As the Kay investigation ultimately made clear, Clinton could have been no more sure they had wmd to worry about than Bush was with which to justify the costly sanctions to the Iraqi people. His rhetoric and that of his mouthpieces however, voiced the same "certainty" Bush and his boys did.

And therein lies the danger here. The "good guy" does bad for allegedly good reasons, then the bad guy steps in and exploits the precedents the "good guy" set. Clinton also signed the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 that set AMerica on the dedicated regime change course in Iraq, and despite the language in Section 8 denying military action as means by which to accomplish it, that didn't stop the repub pols or pundits from using it, much less their minions, as another thing overwhich their escalations could be and were justified.

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history...." comes to mind.

THis is why the discerning eye looking at DC can't help but see the good cop/bad cop, faux duopoly it represents on matters impinging directly upon foreign policy, like the phony "War on terror" for example. The "bipartisanship" on those and related matters is why all we're left with is the lesser of two evils choice. That's why the dembots feel the way they do and act upon it in the manner that they do -- they don't like the idea that they are tied to evil in the form of lawlessness, and refuse to acknowledge it. Sadly BHO having good intentions provides no insulation from all of that, because he's still paving the way to hell.

The same dynamics are behind all of the conflicts we've seen on DU the last several months over the possibility of safety net cuts. While the subject matter differs -- killing citizens without due process as opposed to imposing more immoral hardship onto them -- the rest remains the same.

Denial isn't the only thing that rightwingnuts don't have a monoploy on either.

good post

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:07 PM

50. Albright and Bill Clinton should be facing trial for crimes against humanity, imho. N.B. The

 

sanctions on Iraq during the 90s that led to the deaths of an estimated 500,000 Iraqi children from ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE DISEASES like dysentery and malnutrition were one component of the fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden to justify attacks on American civilians.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:59 PM

39. Just one reason among several why I voted Green in the Presidential

 

election in Nov. 2012.

Amazing that, after Emmet Till, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Fred Hampton, Obama would allow his name to be associated with this odious policy. Obama's reputation will be tarnished forever because of it, much as FDR's name is irrevocably linked to Manzanar for perpetuity.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:17 PM

43. Obama admin has not killed any Americans

 

Everyone needs to cool off for a couple days.
Or at least give Obama a chance to explain himself.
He's very open, or his admin has been. Give him a chance to speak.

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:21 PM

45. Yes, he has. Three at least,

 

One of them an innocent young man of sixteen. Please, keep yourself informed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/18/us-citizens-drone-strike-deaths

Three dead, each one of them an American citizen.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:17 PM

52. The killing of 16 year old innocents is justified when they "choose" the "wrong father"

WASHINGTON -- A 16-year-old American boy killed in an Obama administration drone strike "should have (had) a far more responsible father," Obama campaign senior adviser Robert Gibbs says in a new video released by the group We Are Change.

Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, an al Qaeda propagandist killed by a U.S. drone a year ago. But the child was killed in a separate strike some two weeks after his father was killed. Gibbs wasn't entirely familiar with the situation, and didn't know that al-Awlaki's son was killed two weeks after his father was killed, a person familiar with his thinking at the time he was interviewed told HuffPost. We Are Change bills itself as a non-partisan media organization "working to expose corruption."

"I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children. I don't think becoming an al Qaeda jihadist terrorist is the best way to go about doing your business," Gibbs, the former White House press secretary, told the interviewer from We Are Change, when asked to justify "an American citizen that is being targeted without due process, without trial -- and, he's underage, he's a minor."

...

But the reporter pressed him, noting that the teen had not renounced his citizenship and was underage. The Atlantic suggests that if Gibbs is giving the genuine rationale for the killing, it's grounds for impeachment.

"Again, note that this kid wasn't killed in the same drone strike as his father," writes The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf. "He was hit by a drone strike elsewhere, and by the time he was killed, his father had already been dead for two weeks. Gibbs nevertheless defends the strike, not by arguing that the kid was a threat, or that killing him was an accident, but by saying that his late father irresponsibly joined al Qaeda terrorists. Killing an American citizen without due process on that logic ought to be grounds for impeachment."
...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/robert-gibbs-anwar-al-awlaki_n_2012438.html

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Response to Catherina (Reply #52)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:19 PM

54. OMG! What a cold and heartless administration we have in office. n/t

 

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Response to MadHound (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:16 AM

68. Faithfully representing the cold and heartless elite

but hey, we're supposed to blindly trust because it's "our party" (whatever that means). Never mind that they're not on our side and only pretend to be in words.

Choosing the wrong parents is a crime worthy of death. I wonder what will happen when kids choose parents who don't pay their indentured debts, or who protest government policies, because that day is coming too.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:37 AM

74. Three that we know about

And I wouldn't be surprised one bit if it turns out that we're still waterboarding people.

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:23 PM

56. Only our wonderful media could convince

Americans that President Obama is killing terrorists who are American citizens. You do realize that the terrorists who happen to hold American citizenship would kill you in a New York minute because they see themselves as enemy combatants of the United States. They have NO allegiance to the US. By virtue of their actions, they have denounced their US citizenship. That's why they are in another country doing their terrorist thang against the US. This is why I hate it when the newsmedia tries to get into deconstructing counter terrorism protocols. They do not have the whole picture. It was the same thing during the Bush administration. It will take 50 years before we find out the REAL reason Bush 2 invaded Iraq.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:29 PM

59. Tell me, what threat is a sixteen year old US citizen.

 

What about the Constitutional concept of due process? Oh, and unless you specifically renounce your US citizenship, you are still a US citizen.

So I suppose you agree with other unconstitutional actions, such as pre-emptive strikes and extraordinary rendition, ie torture.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:37 PM

62. Yeah, that damn "liberal" media again n/t

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:51 PM

49. Hina Shamsi, director ACLU’s National Security Project, says it exactly "profoundly disturbing"

This is sick to the core in humanitarian terms, to say nothing of constitutions and what nation states do with their papers and laws and rationalizations to secure the extra-legal privilige to kill.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:14 PM

51. So, does this justify your refusal to register your guns should legislation be passed? nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:17 PM

53. Here you are again, right on cue with the subtanceless post of the day.

 

So, I take it you support these extrajudicial killings of US citizens.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:20 PM

55. I disagree that they are extrajudicial. Still not going to register your guns? nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:25 PM

57. So then tell me, where is there any sort of judicial oversight?

 

No judge is involved in any way, US citizens are being killed on the say so of the president or other high level administration official.

That is the very definition of extrajudicial. Oh, and unconstitutional as well, lack of due process.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:27 PM

58. Nonsense. Go read Youngstown, and tell me what sort of Article III oversight is called for. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:31 PM

60. What, exactly, are you talking about? n/t

 

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Response to MadHound (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:38 PM

63. Perhaps, MadHound, if one calls for 'judicial oversight', one might familiarize

oneself with SCOTUS decisions that discuss 'judicial oversight.'

It's a thought.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:43 PM

65. Ah, so you really don't know, you're just tossing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

 

Not surprising.

Good night.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:51 PM

67. Youngstown is a SCOTUS decision regarding judicial oversight.

Try reading it. It's on the Internets.


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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:32 PM

61. Proud to recommend.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:41 PM

64. K&R. This potential precedent must die in the womb

or the next Nixon/Bush will end this constitutional republic for good. Guaranteed it will be expanded to killing Americans on our own soil after the next teruh threat.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 02:08 AM

71. Rule no. 1 about justification:

If you feel the need to justify something, it's because you know deep down inside that it's wrong.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:44 AM

75. According to this post, the power was given to W a couple of days after 9/11:

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:57 AM

78. Ah, so because W took unconstitutional power unto himself,

 

We should allow Obama to do the same?

I opposed Bushboy's excesses, just as I oppose Obama's excesses. It is simply a matter of putting country and Constitution ahead of party.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:59 AM

79. I'm not excusing Obama one tiny bit; merely offering the pattern. You may have missed my post

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #79)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:01 AM

80. I didn't think you were,

 

I was more responding to your link than to you. Sorry for the confusion.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #80)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:03 AM

81. No problem. Tensions are quite understandably high right now and I understand.

 

I've done the same thing. Peace!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:10 PM

87. another proud K&R

Thanks for this OP

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 11:17 PM

88. Damn I love the ability to K&R days later!

Missed your post before......excellent & pleased to be a delayed K&R!

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