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Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:33 PM

Can't a woman enjoy her sexuality without being called a whore?

Basically, that's what I've seen here. Beyonce was dancing too suggestively. Beyonce wasn't wearing enough clothes...and so on.

It's always about the women dancing suggestively or wearing too little. The insinuation is that they are whores for doing it without saying the actual word or making the accusation.

What is wrong with a woman enjoying her sexuality?

I like feeling sexy and I don't mind showing off my body on occasion. It's not the best body, but it's not a bad one either.

During my days living in Germany years ago, I experienced a sexual revolution of sorts. I was single at the time and I relished having sex with whomever I chose without feeling guilty about it. I quit caring about who thought I was a whore. What mattered was what I thought about myself. As a result, I learned to accept who I was and to enjoy my sexuality regardless. Plus, I love sex. It feels fucking great!

So, if Beyonce wants to flaunt her body, dance suggestively and wear sexy clothing...I say more power to her. Show your stuff girl. You got it...flaunt it.

The message is this:

WE OWN OUR BODIES!

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Reply Can't a woman enjoy her sexuality without being called a whore? (Original post)
cynatnite Feb 2013 OP
samsingh Feb 2013 #1
raging_moderate Feb 2013 #98
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #2
cynatnite Feb 2013 #6
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #9
cynatnite Feb 2013 #17
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #32
cynatnite Feb 2013 #282
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lark Feb 2013 #125
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freshwest Feb 2013 #221
MADem Feb 2013 #59
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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:35 PM

1. i hope so

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

98. I think it's more like many piggish men (hopefully not including me) want to enjoy your sexuality...

and by making women the dirty ones, they get off scott free!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:36 PM

2. Was she paid to participate in the Super Bowl?

I didn't watch it and could care less - but if she was paid than she is under certain restrictions. I have not desire to flaunt my body (for which we should all be grateful) but i know if I came to work having decided to do so I'd be in trouble as 1) I take their money and 2) they have made it clear what the standards of dress are.

Sex is pretty good though - I read about it in a national magazine and it sounds amazing.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:38 PM

6. So, if she was paid, then she is a whore. Gotcha...

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:41 PM

9. That's a pretty unfortunate way to interpret it

I am not saying she is a whore - I guess there are two issues here.

1. Is it appropriate that woman flaunting their sexuality in public should be looked at as whores? Generally not (although there is a point where it becomes that - full public nudity is not something I think we are ready for as a society).

2. Is it appropriate for her to take their money and then create a spectacle of herself, counter to what the organizers might want? I don't believe so.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

17. Ask yourself this question: What is a whore?

For whatever reason Beyonce made a choice to perform for the audience. She may or may not have been paid for it. Why is she a whore then?

Why do you think she made a spectacle of herself? In my eyes, she put on an amazing show and looked great doing it. In my eyes, she is comfortable with her sexuality and knows how to make the most of it. I don't think it makes her less of a person even if she was paid for it.

There are numerous male performers who have provocative acts, but there is little to no attention paid to them. It's just aimed at the women and they are called whores for it.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:02 PM

32. I am not calling her a whore

I probably shouldn't have responded to this. but to be clear I am not calling her a whore.

I think you are missing the point. It is possible that the organizers of the Halftime show brought her in, hoping her sexuality would be on full display (actually that's probably likely). Evidently based on what I have read - she went too far for some people. I don't know as I didn't watch.

The point to her taking money isn't that taking money makes her a whore (it doesn't, and I am not calling her a whore), it's that if you take money you have to live up to what you understand you are taking the money for - which in this case probable means being sexy but not too sexy.

Anyway - again, I am not calling her a whore. And that last statement seems kind of off - male sexuality is proscribed completely differently than female sexuality because of our national hangups about homosexuality (particularly male sexuality).

Bryant

Ps. I'm not calling her a whore.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:50 PM

282. What is a whore? n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #282)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:51 PM

283. A whore is someone who takes money for sex as I understand it n/t

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:58 PM

125. Whores by whose concept?

In Saudi Arabia if you show your hair, you are considered a harlot. In France, going topless at the beach is normal behavior. In America wearing little triangles of cloth in strategic places is considered fine if you are at the beach, but would get you thrown out of the opera. Clothing depends on culture and place for it's appropriateness.

A show is just that, a show, meant to be seen. Creating a spectacle of herself is entirely the point of a show. I'd bet tons of money that the organizers of the Beyonce show were pleased with what they got. Why would you think otherwise?

Sorry, dear, your prudery and judgementalism is definitely showing.

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Response to lark (Reply #125)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:05 PM

129. I'm comfortable with that - prudery anyway

I didn't see the show - and - i guess it's hard to judge how much real outrage there is at DU - it certainly doesn't sound as furious as the Janet Jackson thing a few years back.

Your initial point though, doesn't make a huge amount of sense - she wasn't doing the Halftime in Saudi Arabia or France; I agree completely with your last line which is that clothing depends on culture and place for appropriateness. To some people it seems that she went past that boundary.

I guess we'll find out what the organizers thought next year - I don't know how long in advance these are planned, but if they tap a classic rock act, we'll know.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:21 PM

221. What do you mean when you say 'a spectacle of herself, counter to what the organizers might want'?

The entire Super Bowl a spectacle and it was expected. It is a venue that pushes the limits every year. Going as far as possible. Nothing new about that. It's a competition from year to year. Not exactly a relaxing or subtle event.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:25 PM

59. Rush Limbaugh flaunts his jiggling body every day in the simulcasts of his radio show...

His clothing is tight, leaving nothing to the imagination...his man-boobs are always on full display.

And HE gets paid, too!

And unlike Beyonce, he has no talent...!

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Response to MADem (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:01 PM

93. aaaaaugh!!11! Brain bleach, brain bleach!

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Response to Hekate (Reply #93)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:08 PM

101. I take that to mean you don't like it and you don't wanna put a ring on it?



Uh, uh, oh! Uh, uh, oh, oh, oh!!

(Now I have a vision of Rushbo trying to do that dance...!)

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Response to MADem (Reply #101)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:18 PM

164. STOP IT...

I may have to sleep with the lights on tonight

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:50 PM

186. Whoa. I think that makes me a history whore! With underaged clients!!!

Oh, I'm so ashamed. I'm a monster!! A monster!!!!


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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

8. I'm sure the Superbowl halftime people wanted her to wear sexy outfits

because it will generate talk and possibly add more viewers. The old adage "Sex Sells" is 100% true and has been from the year 1,000,000 B.C.E to February 4th 2011 and far beyond that.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:23 PM

58. All the artists who performed at Super Bowl half-time shows do it for free

The world wide exposure more than makes up for it

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:12 PM

226. No, she wasn't paid.

The NFL doesn't pay their halftime acts.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:54 AM

255. Super Bowl Half-Time Show Stars are NOT paid. The are reimbursed for the

production costs only, but receive no personal renumeration.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

3. That has always been my phllosophy:

If you got it flaunt it. When I was a whole lot younger, I had it and I flaunted it. But old age has kicked in and unfortunately, I don't have it anymore.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

4. It's the old 'Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" argument.

If a woman wants to flaunt her sexuality, is it because she really WANTS to or is it because society has pushed her to do that?

What about porn created by women?

I'm not arguing with you, btw. Just pointing out how complex the subject gets.

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

7. Beyonce and her husband make enough money and are high enough in the star

stratosphere that Beyonce can do whatever Beyonce wants, society be damned.

That's how I see it at least. I think she really loves her body.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:42 PM

11. Then good for her!

Another aspect of it is that sex appeal sells. That applies to both genders.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:02 AM

259. ...and hobnob with the president. nt

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:14 PM

49. 'Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" that's easy, neither the rooster did

 

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:50 PM

153. The answer at last!

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:46 PM

181. She's doing it because it's her job. Hello? n/t

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:29 PM

201. That was my first thought.

Would Beyonce have been asked to perform at the Super Bowl, Inauguration or anywhere for that matter if she hadn't been flaunting her sexuality all along? And if so, was that choice really a choice about being a sexual being or about being successful as an entertainer?

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Response to Iris (Reply #201)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:33 PM

229. they've had old men perform. the day they have an old woman perform is the day

I'll think that maybe women can be famous for talent other than being able to shake it, shake it, baby.


Oh no it's not about prudery. It's about women who are less than stunning or older than twenty, having the same chance to express their musical or other performing talents based on CHOPS as men have.

Geez take Madonna for example...her show was fucking terrific but all she gets around here is shit for being too old. (Or for being pop rather than whatever your preferred genre is. But that's a matter of subjective taste, which isnt justified for values critique. ) How fucking sexist and how fucking ageist.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #229)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:39 PM

291. Exactly.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

5. Those same people where probably

waiting for a man to jump up on stage and rape her, since "She was asking for it wearing those clothes". They may act like they are progressive and liberal but its all to common for old folks to not be able to except sex and/or stop thinking of women as lower beings who can not choose their own paths.

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Response to Drale (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:05 PM

196. Cut out that crap about "old folks" dude! Seriously.

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Response to juajen (Reply #196)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:57 AM

266. "Old Folks" probably know how to use "were", "too" and "accept"

in a sentence as well, doncha think? But I guess we're all "prudes". I never thought I'd see the day that Boomers--hippies and Free Lovers from the 60s--would get accused of THAT!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:42 PM

10. No, there are uptight prudes on both ends of the political spectrum...

I would say a lot of it is bred with fundieness at an early age...

Oh my god they are being sexual on stage, in front of peoples, my eyes! me eyes! They are sexualizing the WORLD





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Response to snooper2 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:15 PM

50. 2003. Now you're making me feel like an old turd...



Sid

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:43 PM

12. Sure she can, but...

Don't expect people to call her a "singer" if half, or more of her performance is dancing. Either herself, or a bunch of people behind her. Too much of popular "music" is more about dancing instead of singing. Anyone can get onstage and shake their body and grab their ass and their crotch. Few people can really sing without Autotune or something similar. And race doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. I say the same thing about Madonna, or Britney Spears or any white female whose every "performance" consists more of dancing instead of singing.

Beyonce will impress me when she stands still, alone on a stage, and sings without backup or lipsyncing. Until then I reserve the right to think of nothing more than the latest eye-candy.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:50 PM

18. Here you go...

http://pitchfork.com/news/49384-beyonce-sings-national-anthem-a-cappella-addresses-lip-sync-controversy-at-press-conference/

Scroll to the bottom and the video is there. She stood still, and sang the song to the press at an event. It was all real.

So, yeah, she is actually a singer.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:54 PM

20. OK, I'm impressed.

Yes, she can actually sing. So she's not just the latest eye-candy.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:58 PM

90. She's been around since Destiny Child group.

They were one of the first female groups to have status alongside make peers in club music... If anything, they made more of the men actually add singing in with rapping. And they designed their own clothes. They were the first to come up with the high cut so they could show off their dance moves at a show. It was liberating to be in a club and have a female(s) as the main singers and everyone is still dancing and having a great time.

Years later, and Beyonce has had an amazing run as a solo artist. Many of the dance/ club songs are strong- female songs. No moping about brooding over a man, if the man doesn't put a ring on it, there loss. Her albums have a mix of dance/ club songs and slower, power ballads.

And she seems to have made the right decisions for her in her own time. When she first started dating Jay-Z, there seemed to be a never ending pressure of when they would be married and why wouldn't she marry him. She wanted her career and Beyonce Brand, she and he got married in their own terms and then had a child on their own terms... She was in control of her body and when things were right for her (and she's 10 yrs younger than he is). It doesn't seem like either of them use one another for each others career, but support one another.

Of course, I don't know them personally, but over the last 15 yrs she's seemed like a very strong, independent woman, who has legs like tree trunks, a very curvy body, and has felt no need to enhance anything. If I were to give a word association with Beyonce, it would be Amazon.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:32 PM

63. I remember a few years back

there was a concert on tv, something like "Women in Rock"... Cyndi Lauper, Ann and Nancy Wilson, etc., I think Wynonna Judd... were all performing. At the last minute, the producers decided to throw Destiny's Child into the mix. It was really the first time I'd bothered to listen to them--my daughter loved them, but I was into Rock, not R&B. At any rate, when the promo spots were coming on, no mention of DC; then when the show went live, they were announced.

I was like "oh man, how are they going to stand up to all of that at the last minute?" Well, Beyonce took off in a solo and it was the most amazing thing to watch. She truly rose to that challenge, as did the other 2 ladies. I can remember Cyndi Lauper sitting next to them as Beyonce was singing and the look on her face was that she was really impressed by her. From that moment on, I've been a fan of her ability and professionalism. Yes, she CAN sing.

Whitney Houston got the same blow back when she sang the national anthem at a SuperBowl game--she pre-recorded it and lip synced on the day of performance. Interestingly, that recording went to #1 on Billboard right after that.

So, yeah, Beyonce can sing AND she can dance.

Haters just gon' hate...

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:32 PM

64. I still think she's way overrated, but she can sing.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:00 PM

29. And I reserve the right to say "Pffffffttttt"!!!

To your opinion of Beyonce.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:43 PM

13. I have yet to see anyone outraged over the Calvin Klein commercial.

I haven't seen a post where parents children needed to leave the room for that one. But some posters are being lauded for asking their children leave the room for the half time show, then they were allowed back in where they were subjected to the Calvin Klein commercial.

Some people still have a long way to go.

Edit to add:






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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:55 PM

24. I saw that and thought...

customers know they aren't getting that dude, right?

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:58 PM

26. I saw that and thought....

Yummy.

But I also didn't feel the need to call Beyonce names for the outfit she wore. Very sexy.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

33. I won't call her names either.

Just not my kind of music. I must admit she is attractive for someone so young (I'm 45) and a very skilled performer.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:13 PM

137. Damn it all to hell

I just ordered a crap load of that crappy underwear on line thinking I was getting him too. Now my day is ruined.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #137)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:36 PM

147. *chuckle* Sorry. nt

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

30. Ooh la la!




I don't understand all the poutrage about Beyonce. She's a beautiful, talented young woman. Calling her a slut or a whore is way, way over the top.

Women should wear what they want to, whenever they want to.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

34. Darn it.

I wanted this 'issue' to spin on for a couple days before anyone pointed out the hypocrisy.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:08 PM

39. So true!!! Thank you for putting it all in context.

Misogyny abounds.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

46. Start a thread.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:35 PM

67. what's the problem with that?

that most of the men who saw it will never look like that in a million lifetimes?

That was lovely.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:01 PM

127. Another good point. It's a sexist double standard

Women have to be modest and pure, but men as always get to do whatever they want without the same kind of rules and restrictions on them.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:19 PM

140. Actually, I think that ad has also been panned.

Not sure there was "outrage", but its not getting great reviews.

Personally, I think that we "civilized" people are full of crap.

Dance as a form of sexual / fertility display is not so distant from where we actually are today.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #140)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:27 PM

146. "Actually, I think that ad has also been panned."

Link to the thread where the lack of clothes were discussed with this add. Where parents had to remove their children from the room. Where he looked like a slut.

You clearly don't get it and don't want to get it.

Whoosh.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:42 PM

150. Mommy didn't rush the children

from the room because she was busy oogling.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #150)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:32 PM

171. I know I wan't "offended". nt

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:26 PM

167. It was discussed on CNN this AM, but if you want a link ... here's one.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #167)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:30 PM

168. You couldn't provide a link where it has been discussed on DU

Like Beyonce has. You smiley is cute, I just don't think you know why.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #168)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:44 PM

180. Because DU is more representative than CNN and the link I provided??

Here's a thought ... the half time show at the Super Bowl is longer and more anticipated than ANY single commercial.

As such, the Calvin Klein commercial has received less attention on DU when compared to Beyonce's half time performance.

And this apparently surprises you?

The horror!!!

On edit: And just to add, my family was not upset by either. My wife thought Beyonce's performance was flat. And after the CK ad she said "Well, that was interesting.".

We all agreed that the only thing missing from the half time performance was Justin Timberlake.


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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #180)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:16 PM

210. I think you are just playing now.

And that is all good. They are clearly comparable to what is being discussed. The double standard is as obvious as the nose on your face. Some are always right and cannot admit when their views of the genders are hypocritical, they will waffle all around attempting to make a point that is not there. Others are there and I enjoy discussing issues with them.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:43 PM

179. My only beef with that commercial is the assumption that straight guys don't buy CK underwear.

Duluth trading company, baby.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:29 PM

218. Little kids shouldn't be subjected to such gory violence!

I'm not talking about the commercial...I am talking about the GAME. They weren't doing minuets out on that field--they were trying, aggressively, to really hurt each other.

The thing for the kids to watch was the Puppy Bowl, not the Superbowl.

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Response to MADem (Reply #218)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:37 PM

219. Loved the puppy bowl.

And football is extremely violent. In all honest, I am drawn to that part of the game. Every single play these guys do things that would send me to the hospital in tears. Maybe not tears, I don't think you can cry is you are unconscious. There is clearly a place in this country for "gladiator sports".

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:43 PM

14. Yup, she did it to prove she owned her own body, selling more downloads,

making more money, drawing attention to herself had nothing to do with it...yeah, right.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:55 PM

23. What's wrong with that?

It's how she earns a living for one thing and she's good at it.

She does own her body. Is she less of a person for how she chooses to use it?

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:04 PM

36. Maybe she should just sing...

If she truly "owned" her body and her sexuality she wouldn't feel the need to do this...I call BS on supporting this over-rated hack.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

42. Way to tell her how she should act.

"Maybe she should just sing"

Way to put her in her place. Maybe she should just sing, she is getting a little uppity with all of that dancing.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:22 PM

197. Way to get all upset over somehting harmless..is there anything

that does not offend your delicate sensibilities?

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #197)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:20 PM

212. Very cute. My delicate little female sensibilities.

Pretty obvious. Your posts speak for themselves.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #212)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:22 PM

215. And yours do too...your abilities at projection are amazing...

You must be really fun to be around.

MAYBE she shoudl sing...I've capitalized the word whose meaning you should look up, then re-read your original post.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #215)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:26 PM

217. Projection. Did you read your first sentence.

The irony is thick. Take care.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:13 PM

48. It's her choice.

As someone pointed out down thread, pro choice applies to more than abortion.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:11 PM

133. Opinions only, not facts

In your opinion sexy women don't want to show it, but that's all it is, an opinion, not based on facts at all. As a woman who was fairly sexy in her youth and who flaunted it on the dance floor and who didn't wear a bra for 20 years, didn't need to, I call BS. My sister who is even sexier, dressed way more conservative because that's who she was. Two sexy women, two different ways of dressing, neither any more valid than the other - that's reality, not your little uptight judgements.

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Response to lark (Reply #133)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:25 PM

198. Good Lord, I would love to tell you what I think about your judgmental shit tirade...

Suffice to say it's enormously immature and totally wityhout one rational coherent thought.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #198)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:57 PM

275. Christian fundamentalism?

Funny how you seem to have answered my question without even intending to do this.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:40 PM

174. Somehow people have gotten the idea that we only own our bodies

if we are properly ashamed of them and want to cover them up. It's a false meme.

If the poster last night had called a properly covered Michelle Malkin a b*tch he'd have been run off the site. Instead he called Beyonce a prostitute and her fellow performers sluts, and was hailed as a wonderful daddy for teaching his daughter that. Just let that sink in for a minute.

I honestly don't give a shit if anyone likes her music or not. I call BS on the idea that she's a no-talent "hack" or uncomfortable with her sexuality because she showed more skin that some people are comfortable seeing on an uppity female- and in the middle of a violent game, no less. YMMV.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #174)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:25 PM

199. I call BS when people think flash passes for talent...nt

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #199)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:44 PM

224. Ok, I'll bite. Let's talk about that.

Here is a random sampling of no-talent hacks using flash and/or showing skin to cover for their lack of singing ability.


Damn Freddie was hot.


Go ahead. Just TRY and tell me Rob Fucking Halford can't sing.

These guys aren't showing any skin but there sure is a whole lotta flash goin' on...

In fact their concerts are famous for it. I always thought they were pretty good musicians in spite of it.
This guy was famous for flash too. And he wasn't well liked by many, but there's no denying the lad had talent:


I could go on but I'll stop there.
But it's different when it's a talented female showing too much thigh and cleavage and *gasp* DANCING! She should cover up! And just stand still and sing! Even though she can't sing because she has no talent! Because if she had any talent, she wouldn't be showing skin and dancing! Slut! prostitute! stripper! shaking ass! pole dancing! etc. etc. etc.

I can call bullshit a lot louder than you, I think.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:04 PM

194. she's a smart business woman, who knows that sex sells, just like every corporation

on the planet. maybe they shouldn't use sex to sell products either

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #194)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:26 PM

200. They can and do...and that's what she' s doing..just don't make her into

some feminist heroine.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #200)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:54 PM

205. did i say she was a feminist hero?

what's YOUR big problem with HER doing it for herself vs. her being used by some corporation? i think it is progress that she CAN DECIDE to use her sexuality IF SHE CHOOSES just like coporations use women to sell products. and i'm not at all upset that she has a winning combination and that she's making tons of money marketing herself, the way she chooses to. more power to her.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #205)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:59 PM

209. Give it a rest...

What the fuck is going on with the overload of people posting here DEMANDING we take Bouncy's crappy show as a sign of a strong woman...don't try and tell me what I can and cannot think of her shitty music...and why is it that women feel the need to show off their sexuality, to "prove" they own it...did Bruce pull shit like this...even Madonna didn't. As far as I'm concerned the minimally talented singer only reinforced the notion that women can't succeed UNLESS they use sex...

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #209)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:12 PM

225. Okay I have to jump in here

So since she doesn't sing any music you like it's shitty? Wow so if you don't like something somebody else does since its not good to you whatever the other person likes is inferior to your taste?

Ok, I joined DU in order to join with other liberal/progressive people and I log on here tonight for a "is she a whore?" debate. This is a shame. You know "We" liberals/progressive claim to be so tolerant and so open yet we still are do divided. We are doomed we will never progress because we still have people who still feel superior in their thinking to anyone they disagree with.

Shame

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #209)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:28 PM

280. actually: it's the other way around: i don't give a fuck what you think

and neither does Beyonce. you are the one who is insists on trashing the woman, her music, and her style.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #200)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:53 PM

244. Who the hell are you to determine whom is or is not a feminist heroine?

Buzz off :swat:

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #200)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:54 PM

245. Good point

That whole style- making money on sex- is not progressive imo

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:38 PM

231. So, you are saying she doesn't own it and she was forced?

She had no choice but to go on stage and be sexy.

It's her body, her choice. If she has the talent to flaunt it, she should go for it. If it offends your sensibilities so much that a woman is in charge of her sexuality and using it as she sees fit, look the other way or turn off the TV.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #231)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:31 PM

281. thank you for stating the obvious

some people seem to have a problem with her in-your-face sexiness, and the fact that she flaunts it. me...not so much.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:09 PM

40. truly, we all use our bodies for a living

whether manual labor or brainpower, we all sell our bodies

Why is risque entertainment different?

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:43 PM

76. Is that why the Ravens wore those skin-tight yoga pants, and the 49ers wore those butt hugging

mustard covered shorts with the stripes down the side?

Beyonce had as much fabric (four pairs of support hosiery) on her legs as they did--and she at least had a bit of a lace skirt covering her hindquarters. Perhaps they should have put a bit of modest lace on the behinds of the gentlemen on the field....hmmm?

People only THOUGHT they were seeing skin. In fact, they were seeing four layers of a shiny nylon fabric with a lot of elastic built in.

Just like the Ravens, in those painted on yoga pants!

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Response to MADem (Reply #76)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:56 PM

207. thank you!

huge men running around in revealing tights...business as usual. a woman wears lace think of the children. total hypocrisy.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #207)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:22 PM

214. And all that padding the men wore to make their shoulders look bigger!

To say nothing of the bits and pieces placed hither and yon to accentuate this and that!

Why, the strutting, half naked trollops! Think of the children, INDEED!

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:10 PM

270. so fucking what?

Fans of more wholesome entertainment can still find Pat Boone CDs.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:44 PM

15. Who called her a Whore?

I think she's an All-American archetype: the Tease.

Beyonce is about as square as a pop star can be. I don't see her and think sex, I see a corporate robot.

That said: I respect her robotic corporate craft.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

16. "What is wrong with a woman enjoying her sexuality?"


Nothing.

If the show was produced to suit my preferences, then it would have involved an on-stage orgy involving actual sex and close up Jumbotron views of amazing feats of dildonic athleticism. That would also communicate the message that the performers do own their bodies and enjoy pleasuring them for the entertainment of others. Nothing says "we own our bodies" more than, say, a live orgasm broadcast to millions of homes.

Unfortunately, the show did not appeal to my preference that it contain actual sex. Like Michael Jackson's crotch-grabbing, I found it unsatisfying that we did not get to see actual genitalia, and that the bodies in question remained far too prudishly covered, making it difficult to make out the exact contours of the labia majoris of this talented woman.

They gave an award to some kid for exercising an hour a day. I can recall vigorously exercising my right arm for extended periods when I was younger too.

Some people believe in drawing lines for the purpose of an entertainment spectacle designed to be viewed by an audience with a wide variety of tastes, and opinions about where those lines are drawn. But, for the purpose of DU, it is much more entertaining to characterize one camp as fundamentalists mullahs, and the other camp as peep show afficionados.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:21 PM

53. :snort:

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

60. bahabahaha!!


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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:06 PM

97. Yeah, sure. Men always say things like that..It reminds me of the old joke I'd hear from guys:

"If I were a woman, I'd be the biggest whore in town..BWAHAHAHA"!

Talk is cheap. The proof lies in the HONEST answer to a question like:

Would you marry a woman who did that publicly? Would you want your

daughter, your sister, your girlfriend or your mother to be in the kind of "show" you describe?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:19 PM

107. What they choose to do with their time is up to them

I guess you believe I should keep them in burkas, but I'm not one to tell others what to do.

On the prior question of "Would you marry a woman who did that publicly?" I can assure you that (a) I'm already married, so it isn't really a concern of mine and (b) my preference in marrying was determined on other grounds. However, judging women's behavior on the criterion of "would I marry a woman who did X" seems like an odd way to go about it. I do not expect every woman on the planet to appeal to my sense of whom I would or would not marry, as I do not consider every woman on the planet to be auditioning for that role.

Do I expect every woman on earth to do their level best to be what I personally consider to be "marriageable"? No. They are sentient beings entirely capable of deciding what to do without consulting me.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #107)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:32 PM

170. No kidding, but that that fails to answer the question.

I asked about your PREFERENCES regarding your own family, not what we all know

to be factual adults "freedoms", and, predictably, you can't answer.

BTW, I have no idea why you would imagine that I, as a woman,

would think you should keep other women "in burkas", but I guess when you're on the defensive,

all sorts of weird assumptions come out.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #170)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:40 PM

175. I did answer the question

It wouldn't bother me one way or another. You fail to understand that I have no desire to control the behavior of others who are, as far as I'm concerned, possessed of the free agency to do what they like.

On further reflection, actually, if it was my wife, I'd probably get a kick out of it.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #175)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:44 PM

203. Yeah, sure.

I fail to understand very little, actually.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #203)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:56 PM

206. Ah, clever


So regardless of the answer, you use your psychic internet power to determine what people really think. One wonders why you bother to ask.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #206)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:28 AM

262. Ah, not so clever

One wonders why you bother to answer.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:20 PM

109. Yes, I would.

My mother and grandmother were "sex workers"

I have dated strippers and loved one working girl with all my heart. Got no fucking problem with any of it.

What's YOUR problem with it??

Too icky??

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #109)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

161. I guess you're the exception that proves the rule, then

"What's YOUR problem with it??"

It seems the "problem" may be yours, Cliff, because if you read my post

you'll see I never SAID that I "had a problem with it"

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Response to whathehell (Reply #161)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:51 PM

187. You haven't found one yet that has a problem with it though


You seem to have an argument in search of someone to use it against.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #187)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:39 PM

202. Not one who will admit to it.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

106. Snort number two

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:47 PM

183. Is there a dildonic Olympics? nt

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:52 PM

19. some might say it contributes to objectification...

...while others, like you, see it as exercising agency against repression.

I guess I see both views, but tend to side with free expression. Of course she is doing so in a fenced in space created by the patriarchal culture for the controlled exercise of that agency.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:55 PM

21. My problem with promiscuity is biological

Regardless of the sex or gender orientation of the person.

Simple math is is, the larger # of partners you have, the more chance there is of contracting and/or spreading STDs. Not to mention people who cheat on their partners while in committed relationships. I'm sorry, I refuse to have any more respect for them than I do for someone who cheats professionally. If anything, they do even more long lasting damage to their partners' emotions.

Point in a nutshell: Dress how you dress. Love who you love. Just don't try to love everyone.

(As for the Superbowl - Beyonce was hot, a very beautiful lady, but Alicia Keyes was, as always, awesome)

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

27. You can have as much sex as you want with however many people as you want...

As long as it is done responsibly and you have the mental and emotional maturity to handle it.

In a nutshell: You can love as many people as you want...even more than one at a time. Responsibility is the key.

I love both Beyonce and Alicia.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

44. If only the world was enlightened enough to be responsible

Unfortunately, we live in a world filled with herpes and gonorrhea and hepatitis and all the other communicable diseases.

I am one of the ultimate "Live and let live" people. I respect people's right to decide, but I feel no obligation to respect the decision they make, especially when the decision affects others.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:37 AM

267. With enough education and resources

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

we can suppress STD's. Another thing is, compared to other disease vectors, like water, food, air, mosquitos, there aren't that many STD's, and aside from AIDS, most are not that bad. (I mean, strep or e. coli can kill you in 36 hours or less.) We take care of water and food born diseases (or had until recently) with inspections and public health programs. We don't make anything like the effort with sex because people want diseases to discourage promiscuity.

Therefore, by your paradigm, we neglect suppressing the diseases to discourage women from becoming sluts and whores, and we scorn the sluts and whores because they spread the diseases. There is something basically immoral about that, whether feel obligation or not.

This is insane, and I could make a strong argument it's not in your self-interest even if you and your partner are monogamous. I abbreviate it by saying having fewer options and less freedom is never better.

If this were anything but sex, people could be rational. But because it's sex, everybody acts like idiots.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:55 PM

22. Words

Negative = All of the descriptors applied to females who enjoy their sexuality.
(slut, whore, etc.)

Posititve = All of the descriptors applied to males who enjoy their sexuality.
(Romeo, Lothario, etc.)



Eternally annoying.

-

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:02 PM

293. Romeo loved one, and only one, woman. (Girl actually)

He killed himself over the thought of having lost her.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:56 PM

25. The singing was horrid...

I guess she has to earn her paycheck somehow...

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

28. While her husband made millions from calling women "bitches"

but I guess that's OK. I guess Jay-Z owns women's sexuality, too.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

31. Thank you

Pro choice. Her body, her choice.

That doesn't only apply to abortion.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:04 PM

35. It's too bad she was contractually restricted from showing more of it


She did not have a "choice" as it is likely that her contract forbade her from showing the entirety of her talented body which, IMHO, is disappointing.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:33 PM

65. You don't know Beyonce! She's modest, and she was VERY covered.

You only thought you were looking at skin. In actual fact, you were looking at four pairs of support hose.

You're not going to see a thing through that many layers--you just THINK you see something.

And that's the whole idea!

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Response to MADem (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:39 PM

72. I'm simply saying that the show did not suit my preferences


My preference would have been for there to be actual live sex. I am very disappointed that it did not, and outraged that there are those like Beyonce whose tastes are obviously more in line with the Taliban than mine are.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:46 PM

79. Well, you're not going to get your wish. You'll have to make do with fake skin on stage, and skin

tight pantaloons/painted-on yoga pants (revealing every dimple and curve) on the players on the field.

Or change the channel to some of those adult programs....since the Puppy Bowl wouldn't be an option for you, either...

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Response to MADem (Reply #79)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:49 PM

82. Au contraire


I watched more of the Puppy Bowl than the game, and there were several instances of actual nude dog humping, and exposure of genital organs.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #82)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:09 PM

102. Well, then, you have nothing to complain about, then, do you?

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Response to MADem (Reply #102)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

105. Well, they weren't shaved


So there is that.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:05 PM

37. We have a winner!!

That's it in a nutshell.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

38. I know I do.

 

I really don't care what anyone days.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:10 PM

41. I was in the sexual revolution ...

... I was captured early and spent the duration changing diapers.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:42 PM

74. Ha!

Best response ever.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

43. I don't know

But at the point where somebody tries to persuade me that our latest generic pop culture installment is actually deeply politically significant and somehow liberating to women, I just have to give up.

And no, I'm not a prude. But I find mainstream culture, especially mainstream pop, especially mainstream pop performances, extremely generic, redundant and uninteresting. And of course they are: They are designed to be, since they have to pander to all tastes.

I'm always amazed at how people expect the halftime show to be great - as if I had any reason to expect that the one common denominator on which corporate america can agree on to carry the message would appeal to me.

Edit.

And yeah.. somehow.. this always implies.. that in the end.. feminism and the sexual revolution was all about exactly how naked a female performer may get during super bowl half-time shows. That's just wrong. If this was what the sexual revolution was all about - they can have it back, as far as I'm concerned.

What goes on in half time shows is more of a consequence of the lame minds that decide upon the contents of our corporate entertainment programs than it is a consequence of the sexual revolution. "Sex sells" is about the only substantial addition that the PR industry has come up with since the days of Edward Bernays.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:18 PM

52. +1

What a thoughtful post


What goes on in half time shows is more of a consequence of the lame minds thar program our corporate entertainment programs than is is a conquence of the sexual revolution. "Sex sells" is about the only substantial addition that the PR industry has came up with since the days of Edward Bernays.


Worth repeating

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

84. The lines do blur a lot these days...

Which is it? Is Beyonce an independent woman exercising her right to use her body as she chooses? Is she perpetuating the stigma that women are objects to be used and tossed aside when finished.

In the end, IMO, I think only Beyonce can answer the question if she feels liberated and free by selling herself and her music as she does. Female artists that use provocative music and dance are the only ones that can answer these questions.

Is it corporate? Or is it they recognize what people want and give it. Maybe they know how to manipulate the public into thinking this is what they want?

In the end, I think it's up to the individual to determine how they view it.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:34 PM

113. Yes, I think this has more to do with bland, corporatized entertainment

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:01 PM

156. Thank you! nt

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:24 PM

236. Exactly

The halftime performers are never chosen for their music. They are chosen for the show. Or else they'd have good, but little known bands on, or good musicians. I mean apart from Springsteen, there is no one I would have paid to see. It's all crass commercial crap.

Why not good bands: Glossary, Alabama Shakes, or Green Day or the Avett Brothers. It was New Orleans for god's sake! Why not music that reflects the city? Preservation Hall Jazz Band. The Neville Brothers. Trombone Shorty. Dr. John.

Why does it always have to be mass-produced crap? Why not reflect the heritage of the city the Super Bowl is in?

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:24 PM

237. THIS

What a perfectly stated encapsulation of the absurdity in all of these Beyonce worship posts - thank you.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:58 AM

253. THANK YOU

the latest threads coming out are a BAD JOKE

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

45. Agreed. We liberals are the sex-positive people, remember, folks?

 

Leave the moralizing for the religious fundyCons.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

47. Good post. Well said...



Sid

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:16 PM

51. Didn't the prudes complain about Elvis's gyrations back in the day? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:25 PM

216. Yes, they did--the felt the world would be thrown off its axis if Elvis's pelvis appeared on tee vee

for all the innocent young children to see!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:21 PM

54. I was trying to watch a football game

If she wants to enjoy her own sexuality, I don't care what she does on her own time in her own place.

But really, there were young children watching. Is this really the behavior we want the to model?

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:31 PM

62. Utlimately, we expect at least some of those children to reproduce and propagate the species


Which is why I would prefer that the show include live sex on stage thus demonstrating how it is done and preserving our expectations of future generations.

The prudes who insist that Beyonce's genitals be covered during the performance are the ones who get me steamed.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:37 PM

69. Most children come with a built-in manual so demos aren't really necessary.

Otherwise, I agree with you!

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:37 PM

68. As opposed to guys charging at each other and trying to slam them into the ground to get brain

injuries that result in early-onset dementia? To the point where a bunch of brain injured football players are now suing the NFL?

Oh, the Humanity! Think of the CHILDREN....!

Dancing around energetically vs. attacking someone and slamming them into the ground....which is a worse example for those tender young minds?

Oh, help me CHOOOOOSE!!


Anyone who is REALLY worried about "the children" should have been watching the PUPPY BOWL.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:03 PM

95. It was halftime.

So, it wasn't during the game. And, while I'm not going to argue with you about role models, you could change the channel. There are many here (not me) that would condemn you for letting your children watch such a 'violent' sport.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:10 PM

103. My 7 year old fell asleep. And my 8 year old was too busy

playing Doodle on her ipod to pay attention. And I grew up with Madonna. And George Michael's "I Want Your Sex" video in the late 80's. Gen X, Gen Y and whatever generation my kids are in are all shock-proof. I used to listen to Slayer in middle school. I think the stuff out today is kind of tame in comparison.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:11 PM

272. You'd rather your young children model the behavior of the guys cracking their skulls together?

Heavens! Think of the Children!

Really? Your children wanted to sit through the entire superbowl? Or did they not have a choice?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #272)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:27 PM

273. Choosing between a soft porn stripper act and a bunch of not-too-smart apes on 'driods

I'll admit it is a tough choice. But for younger children, I would have to go with the apes. I just don't think it is a good idea to teach young children, especially young girls, that strutting their privates around is the way to get ahead in life.

And I would point out there were apparently no serious injuries in this game. The NFL is trying to clean up its act. Can you say the same for the entertainment business? Not just the Beyonce sex show -- the same thing can be said about the promotion of violence by the entertainment industry.

And let me say, all kidding aside about the ape references, that there are a lot of positives in the football game. Some of these guys are scary smart -- you have to be in order to master a 1000-page play book. There is complex strategy -- maybe not at the level of a chessmaster, but sometimes it gets pretty close.

And aside from a few shoving matches along the way, I didn't see anything that looked like really poor sportsmanship to me. Not every NFL game is this good, but I think this one was definitely OK for young eyes.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #273)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:41 PM

274. I guess that's where we disagree. Sex doesn't bug me, and I didn't see Beyonce's "Privates", either.

It was a good act.

I'm not one to hand-wring over "the culture"; I don't dig violent movies for the sake of violence, and I fully admit that I think this culture gets far too worked up over S-E-X while giving a free pass to violence (sure, an AR-15 at JC Penney is fine, but a naked boob? OH NO!) ... that said, not everything is or should be for kids.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #274)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:05 PM

276. Fair enough. I'm not a prude about sex, bit the messages we send kids are important

Messages of healthy relationships I'm fine with. I don't think it is good message to send young girls that the way to get ahead is by objectifying yourself. And I don't think we should be teaching young boys to expect that is what women are for.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #276)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:09 PM

277. I saw a message of physical fitness, personally.

I mean, I grew up on Jerry Garcia. Fine guitar work, but not exactly the go-to guy for staying in shape.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:21 PM

55. Just knew this thread was coming...

Anyone who called Beyonce a whore is misguided. She was performing for free, and she was not performing sexual acts. So, let's put all the "whore" talk aside.

I disliked her performance. I disliked it a lot. I hardly noticed her outfit, though it was admittedly more difficult to ignore the crotch grabs (never liked that with Michael Jackson or Eminem, either). I have explained in detail why I was disappointed with her performance, choice of songs, production, etc.

cynatnite, women most certainly own their bodies and are free to do with them as they please. However, when those bodies are put on display in front of large audiences, you can expect a divergence of opinions about what they see, and you can also expect some really harsh criticism. And, you will likely be offended by some of those opinions.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:22 PM

56. yes

 

at my house.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:23 PM

57. There is only person to ask...

 

Pattie Smith

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Response to S.A.M (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

61. shootin at the walls of hearache, bang bang

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:03 PM

157. +1000 nt

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:33 PM

66. Actually, in terms of 'whore' versus 'non-whore', it's probably best that men offer no opinion.

We label women enough as it is.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:38 PM

70. +1

If people didn't want their children watching it, or if they didn't want to watch themselves, that's what they make remotes for--to change the channel if you don't approve of what's on TV.
Personally, I liked it.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:05 PM

96. So you are at a Super Bowl party and are going to change the channel?

 

Or maybe kids don't belong at Super Bowl parties or need to be moved into another room?

That isn't very practical.

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Response to dkf (Reply #96)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:14 PM

138. Sometimes little kids don't belong at

every adult function.
When my sons were young, we went to a friend's house for the Super Bowl. They had a boy a year older than my 2. They spent 95% of the Super Bowl playing in the boy's room or the dining room. We had our adult time, they had their kid time.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:39 PM

71. Yes. What more need be said?

 

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:41 PM

73. All this being said, I enjoyed seeing someone up there who didn't look anorexic

and who felt comfortable in her own skin. I also noted that she had a modesty panel sewn into the front of her costume - something Ms. Jackson could have used a few years ago It was still a bit low, but that was not all skin that was being seen. My TP, gun-toting fundy FB friend was apoplectic saying it was a good thing she had so much double-stick tape holding her outfit together. I told him to go back and really watch the show and he'd see the skin-tone illusion material sewn between the cups. UGH!!!

She's on top of her world this season - PBO's inaugural and the Super Bowl!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:43 PM

75. How can I criticize a woman for doing what I do. I like sex, and for me, it has to be with a woman.

Why would I want to hurl insults at women who like sex too! Men need to stop being hypocritical! It is ruining it for the rest of us who understand that sex is natural and healthy. I do not think less of a woman because she enjoys sex and being single.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:45 PM

77. No. Sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

119. Hilarious quotes! (n/t)

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:45 PM

78. Not sure how to answer because your post is the first I have seen that term used......

And you provided no link to such a use or to any "insinuations"......

So, sorry but it makes me wonder if you might not be making more than there is and in that case it would appear that this is more about you than about Beyonce and her alleged detractors.....


Filing in the "doth protest too much" folder pending corroborating link(s) .

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:46 PM

80. K & R !!! - Thank You For That !!!








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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:47 PM

81. There were people who didn't like that Michael Jackson grabbed his crotch, too

or if you want to go back some decades, they wouldn't televise a performing Elvis Presley below the waist. And some of Jim Morrison's antics that got him in legal trouble. Issues of prudishness vs. public performance has always crossed genders.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #81)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:54 PM

87. Taking issue with public crotch grabbing is prudish? Wow!!!

No one is allowed to draw lines anywhere?

Should flashing now be legal? Masturbating in public? Should we be running porn films on those little tvs in gas stations and taxi cabs?

If you answered "yes" to everyone of those questions I would not stand in judgment the way you just labeled a whole lot of people.

You're a fan of Michael, right? Revisit his "Man in the Mirror". Words to live by.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #87)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

118. Either you missed my point, or I'm not getting yours

I'm saying that this is not a gender issue.

I don't care whether you think Beyonce and Michael Jackson's performances are both over-sexualized, or both perfectly acceptable. Anyone is free to draw their own lines anywhere they like. My point is that this is not an issue that targets women specifically, as the OP suggested.

Did you just not like the word "prudish" for someone who objected to Michael Jackson's moves? Okay, then, "conservative in social mores as they apply to sexually suggestive imagery," is that better? A bit verbose, but my point remains the same.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

83. Let's get a look at you enjoying it first, and then we'll decide



IT'S CALLED A JOKE. JUST KIDDING.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:52 PM

85. ...

Good one.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:52 PM

86. Apparently not...

We're in, what, the 21st Century now? And we're still fighting for the same shit we were in the Dark Ages.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:54 PM

88. The Widespread use of slurs like "Slut" and "whore", even among the young, should give you

your answer, and unfortunately, it's "No".

The Double Standard -- Alive and Well as it's been for centuries, if not for millenniums.

Even in our supposedly "post-sexual revolutionized" times, it's practiced without a thought.

Even the young adhere to it.

To "enjoy" someone and them verbally spit on them for it, has always seemed to me to be the

worst article of faith between the sexes.

To quote Thomas Paine:

"Pity the Tender Sex, for they must deal with Men, who are, at once, their Seducers and their Judges".

Thomas Paine "got" it. Centuries later, millions still don't.




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Response to whathehell (Reply #88)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:19 PM

211. Love the Thomas Paine quote.

What an enlightened human being.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #211)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:24 AM

261. Thanks...I do too. n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:55 PM

89. I think the problem with such a question on a board like this where there are posters

 

of many different age groups is that those that are older feel differently than those who are younger. In my day, the women wouldn't display themselves in public as they do now; they would reserve such display for special, more intimate times. Today, that is not the case. Today, anything goes. What's left? How a woman is dressed is one of the employment criteria I used when hiring people for my office. It is still used today in the place where I do volunteer work. Now, I didn't watch the Beyonce half-time extravaganza. I don't care for the girl/woman. Having said that, I think your point may be relevant as we "are" in a different day and age, one where they dress four and five-year-olds up as miniature hookers and think it's darling. Luckily, I am old and women were different when I married my wife 43 years ago. Had women been like they are now then, I would have remained single. So, whereas you may be right for your generation. Just not mine.

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Response to plethoro (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:13 PM

136. why did you write girl/woman?

It's not like she's 17. She's in her thirties. She is a woman.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #136)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:50 PM

154. I didn't know and like to be exact, particularly here.....nft

 

dddddd

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Response to plethoro (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:58 PM

208. Age does not define me.

My generation was two-faced and stodgy in public, and having sex on the desks, tables and any surface will do, as long as the woman/man you're with is not your wife/husband. What lala land did you live in, mister? I am 71 years old. I am glad that women can now express their sexuality without being condemned for it; although, it seems some old fogies still will be full of condemnation, wrapping women in burkas. That truly is very like the Taliban.

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Response to juajen (Reply #208)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:20 PM

213. Not remotely in the land you do, sir. As far as my Taliban friends and I are concerned

 

we prefer woman that were more cognizant of propriety in public places. You, on the other hand, seem to not care. Your beliefs and those of 21st century females have given rise to our current crop of sex-ridden tv shows and movies that make women look cheap and tawdry. Maybe next they'll be going to the DMV to get new license plates nude. Finally, I'd much rather be a stodgy old fogie than a dirty old man. res judicata

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Response to plethoro (Reply #213)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:42 PM

232. Gee, it's a good thing you're around to tell us how to behave

Otherwise us silly wimmens might get the idea that we can do things WE like, instead of what YOU like, and modern society would fall completely to pieces.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #232)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:28 PM

239. It's doing that now. Marriage rates and birthrates continue to fall. Host of other

 

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)

things. Roughly 3 decades left. The article on that was posted here on this site. I got no truck with you, LadyHawkAZ. I used to live summers in Kachina Village, AZ. Had a summer home there. The guy down the hill was living with a woman from a local tribe. She was real nice and happy. And beautiful. Different strokes...

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:59 PM

91. I agree. If anything should be criticized it's bashing heads for entertainment

Violence and machismo is okay in our society but not an empowered woman owning her body and sensuality

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:00 PM

92. If it had been Tina Turner...

...would there have been the same amount of outrage? I doubt it. Ms. Turner is older, by a lot. We'd be celebrating her courage.

I'm a 48 yr old woman. I thought Beyonce was gorgeous. The one thing I love is that she wears less makeup than the average performer today. She's got a natural beauty that, imo, comes from within as well as without.

BTW, I loved Tina Turner as a kid and still do. She rocked a lot of boats back in her day.

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Response to Wait Wut (Reply #92)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:34 PM

114. very good point. It's generational.

As people get older they tend to get more critical of the younger generation. People of one generation never understand the people from another generation which is weird because when you really get down to it there really are many more similarities than differences. People just focus more on the differences. If Tina Turner could wear short skirts(she had great legs too by the way jut like Beyonce does) and gyrate her hips then Beyonce can too.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:01 PM

94. have you a link to anyone using the word "whore" in reference to this other than your OP? nt

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

99. As a white male of the species, I say:

If guys can do it, then so can the women, and anyone who says it's one way for the goose and another way for the gander is living in a century (or a culture) that I'm glad I don't live in.

Full disclosure, I now live in Germany, and am happily married to a German woman. Our daughters grew up here, and have the German point of view on the subject, even though one of them is in a monogamous relationship.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:08 PM

100. Who called her a whore?

'Cause that's just wrong.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #100)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:40 PM

116. I read about ten threads and did not see it. I see that the author of the OP has flown.

Perhaps the accusations were not well founded.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #116)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

120. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022306766#post7

Scroll through the delightful subthread.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #120)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:31 PM

169. Oh yikes!

What the fuck is going on here?

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Response to Iggo (Reply #169)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:41 PM

176. I wish I had an answer for you

or at any rate, an answer that wouldn't result in a hide and/or a PPR.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #176)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:02 PM

234. One curiosity from that subthread:

It was initiated by an African-American mom of a young girl.

Young.
African-American.
Mom.

She has three things that give her comments credibility.

I never thought Beyonce looked slutty or was acting like a prostitute. Never crossed my mind. But, it wasn't some puritanical, old man, fuddyduddy throwing out the first pitch.

Just sayin'.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #234)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:27 PM

238. That was a dad

African American but not mom.

And comments like this:
"Success is turning my little black girl into a slut"
pretty much ensure that whatever credibility he may have had went straight out the window and into the trash.



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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #238)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:31 PM

240. dammit. Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad, but it sure as hell blows my argument. Nevermind.

(thank you for being kind in pointing out my error)

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #240)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:37 PM

242. Heh. I thought the same thing until I read more closely n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:13 PM

104. Bey is clearly comfortable with her sensuality, and so are millions of us

I ain't mad at you if you don't get Bey; and you can't be mad at me because I do.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:19 PM

108. Apparently not here in puritanical America.

I half grew up in Latin America and even though sexual norms for women were very strict and almost sharia like, dress and dancing was not. You were allowed to wear the sexiest clothes you felt comfortable in and shake up a storm on the dance floor. Although, in the fifties when I was a teenager, I often found myself with my mother, aunt or other chaperone going out with me nightclubbing or even on a date, no one told me I couldn't wear the lowest cut, tightest dress and highest heels I could manage. No one cared how much sexy was on the dance floor whether tango, rhumba or cha cha was involved. Where do you think Charo got her act? So I think this BS about female entertainers putting too much out there, not dressing modestly enough, and blah, blah, and so on, hilarious.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #108)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:31 PM

112. Agree that what's missing is some perspective about our truly puritanical culture

It was founded by the Puritans and thus some of those attitudes remain. In Latin America they will chide you for not being able to move with abandon. Even if they're hung up about other things they know the value of shakin it.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:28 PM

110. As long as you don't label others

with different activity preferences "prudes", "dorks" or whatever is the standard line of negativity.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:45 PM

117. no one said anybody had to watch it

If someone is watching tv and doesn't want to see it they can change the channel. If they were at the game they could go to the hot dog stand or go to the bathroom. If you don't want gay marriage don't marry one. If you don't want abortion don't get one. If you don't want to see women dressing sexy and dancing change the channel.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #117)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:10 PM

132. I agree

If someone is watching NOVA on PBS and doesn't want to see it they can change the channel. If they were at a science lecture they could go get some fresh air or go to the bathroom. If they don't like intellectuals, don't marry one. If you don't like reading, don't go to the library. If you don't want to see a civilized discussion of a serious scientific or cultural topic, change the channel.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:28 PM

111. Yes we do own our bodies

and she is comfortable with hers. and what a body..

She is 33....and can look like that for another few decades.

I loved her outfit and it brought back memories of me.

she has inspired me to get that body I had a few years ago back.

Beyonce you are so beautiful. She is a loving wife and mother. why can't she be beautiful too.

I love sexy clothes. My late husband loved me in them.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #111)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:50 PM

123. she is an inspiration to me when it comes to body image

When I was in high school, I weighed 115 lbs at 5'1". I had curves just like Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez. However, because all my friends weighed 98 lbs I thought I was fat. Now I know better and so does my daughter who has the same body type as Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez. I'm bigger now and I'm okay with that too. All women should love their bodies.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #123)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:50 PM

185. I can say ditto for me

I laugh now looking at old pics where I weighed 110 and thought I looked fat. My rear end was the most prominent. lol , now I am bigger but s bit too big for health reasons. She has me so inspired I am making my goal to be able to shop in my "too small" clothes box in a few months. I did it before and I can do it again. One way to exercise is to dance, maybe pretend to be Beyonce. I will be doing this for me.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:38 PM

115. I thought Beyonce look smoking hot. I liked it.......

the songs not so much but, she looked good.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:48 PM

121. There's nothing wrong with women taking off their clothes and flaunting it

You own your own body and the pleasure of sex is no more shameful than the pleasure of tasting food or swimming in warm water. It's one of the reasons I feel sorry for women. If a man brags about his sexual promiscuity it is a positive thing around other men, at worst from women you'll get the "oh you" eye roll look.

From my observation, the "whore" term used by young westerners is almost exclusively used by women against other women. I cannot actually recall a any of my younger male friends referring to a woman as a whore to condemn their promiscuity or behavior. They may imply a woman is promiscuous as an invitation to opportunity. I can recall countless times where female friends, coworkers, and family members outright called other women "whore" or implied they were promiscuous due to their clothing and behavior, always as a way to put them down. Presumably it has something to do with female competition.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:49 PM

122. What Beyonce and her ilk do is MARKET their seuxality. Also known as whoring.

They wouldn't exist if music videos didn't -- especially if they WEREN'T sexy.

P.S. Hey -- maybe it was her show that caused the power outage!


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #122)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:07 PM

131. Whoring?

So is marrying for security, if you put it that way. Really? I thought we have moved on from painting women as whores, who don't mind relieving men of some of their ill-gotten gains. As long as men make more money and get higher up the economic ladder than women can, there's nothing wrong with women finding a way to get them to share their wealth. Also, in some societies whores had a higher and more honored place in society that married women like in ancient Greece for instance.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #131)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:15 PM

139. There's something wrong when I'm expected to equate sexual suggestiveness

with artistic merit. I'm simply exercising my right to value substance over style.


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #139)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:20 PM

141. Oh, so if she goes out on the stage naked while Da Vinci paints her that's artistic.

But if she's there to entertain, then it's awful? I once managed a rock club and of course took a lot of flack for the entertainment. I once hired a so so musician who was very entertaining. He got so much criticism for not being platinum record quality, but his sets were fun and entertaining. I kept bringing him back because he packed the club including with those people who were his critics because they had such a good time.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #141)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:37 PM

220. DaVinci's ABILITY to paint ANYTHING well

Last edited Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:51 PM - Edit history (2)

is what gave him artistic merit.


rocktivity

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:52 PM

124. Am I a pig for looking?

Exactly when does my behavior cross over into pigdom while reacting to her "celebration of her sexuality"?

I can't tell you how many times I've been berated by someone who dressed very suggestively, for
"staring" or "ogling". One hollered "I didn't dress this way for YOU". Uh, okay, but I wasn't exactly looking "for you" either. The worst though was the woman who complained I was staring at her chest. Yes, I was, reading what was written on the shirt across her chest.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:00 PM

126. Not as long as TeaBags rule the Earth n/t

nt

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:02 PM

128. I think "whore" is a term used jealously.

I agree with the OP. it's her body - if she wants to show it off, show it off!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:05 PM

130. You mean Sasha Fierce? Overall, Beyonce's reception has been off the charts

And it got me thinking about the idea that her show was not unlike many cheer leading squads in professional sports. Only she can sing, is extremely sexy (or Sasha Fierce is) and be gorgeous while putting on an amazing spectacle.

my evidence:

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:12 PM

134. Can anyone else enjoy their First Amendment right of free speech?


We can probably accommodate both.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:12 PM

135. It was well done. The issue we had

The issue we had, watching with a 4 year old girl in the room, was the walking dead promo. Kinda harsh violence, especially the close up arrow to the head. But obviously there's not any problems with glorifying violence in this country, sooo I'm probably overreacting.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:21 PM

142. I'm not a bad looking chick

And I occasionally show a little skin But if I looked as great as Beyonce does, I'd be walking around naked all the time! Americans are way too uptight about sexuality.

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Response to Janecita (Reply #142)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:51 PM

155. lol. No kidding.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:24 PM

143. fuck yeah.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:24 PM

144. Feminism?

So If I watch half-starved, botoxed, scantily-dressed women dance and gyrate, am I supporting womens' right to sexual expression, or am I objectifying and oppressing women? I'm confused!

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Response to bschaffer (Reply #144)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:39 PM

149. All women should be free

free to be whoever they want to be. Free to be taken seriously in business. Free to wear what they want. Free to enjoy their sexuality. Free to be sexy and free to be frumpy(I'm more on the frumpy side). I shouldn't be judged because I wear jeans, t-shirts and no make-up, and my daughter shouldn't be judged because she likes to wear short skirts and yoga pants. We are all free no matter what judgments society wants to place on us.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #149)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:16 PM

163. ha ha

freedom for frump! now! I agree I want that, to be honest I frump regardless of what others think but it would be great if it caught on then I'd feel more relaxed about it.

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Response to bschaffer (Reply #144)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:52 PM

204. Boxtoxed?

It seems you are confused if you're throwing botox into the mix.

You don't really think any of those women on stage were old enough for Botox, do you?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #204)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:45 AM

249. Apparently, even teenagers do that now...

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #249)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:22 AM

260. Really?

It's for wrinkles...What would teenagers do it for?...I'm not challenging you,

I'm just curious!

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Response to whathehell (Reply #260)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:04 PM

289. Sadly, there's a trend for even very young women to look "perfect"

What will they look like when they're 70?

Botox: New Trend for Teenage Girls
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/BeautySecrets/botox-trend-teen-girls/story?id=11393081

Botox: A dangerous new teen fashion
http://www.salon.com/2010/08/12/teens_botox_dangerous_open2010/

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #289)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:38 PM

290. That's so screwed up...Thanks for providing the links. n/t

Where did we in the women's movement go wrong?

It like it never happened.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #290)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:59 PM

292. You're welcome, thought I'd better back it up, since it really is incredible...

I remember being 14 or 15, worrying with my friends that we were "fat." And I must have weighed about 105. I think it's the age, but then it continues.

As for the women's movement, when I was in college that whole preoccupation turned around. Most wore no makeup or even bras, LOL, but the pendulum seems to have swung the other way now.

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #292)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:37 PM

294. Oh, I believe you, for sure.

As for your college years, are you a boomer?...I am and I suspected you might be younger,

but, yeah, whichever it is, there seems to be a LOT of "man hunger/insecurity" in teenage girls

and young women these days...Seems depressing.

As for that supposed "sexual revolution", I sometimes feel it did a lot more for males

than females....What "revolution" is there when girls and women are STILL called

"sluts" and "whores" for doing the same thing as men?

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:26 PM

145. Yep. What you said. All of it!

 

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:38 PM

148. conservatives are stuck in the 3rd century

 

Where males dominated the world. Pay no mind.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:44 PM

151. Of course you own your body

And the rest of the world owns their own opinions and are free to express them. I didn't watch to show, so I have no opinion on the specifics, but I don't find it surprising (given previous shows) that some people love it and others hate it. For me it was an opportunity to cook a nice meal and prepare for the second half.

You claim that you quit caring what other people think... but your thread seems to be saying just the opposite.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:45 PM

152. oh please, she was not "enjoying her sexuality"

She was selling it since it's the ONLY thing that women are allowed to do in the music industry anymore. I'd bet my last dime that she would like to dress and perform the way SHE wants to instead of the industry insisting that the only thing women in the industry are ALLOWED to do is wear next to nothing and dance like a stripper. Then again, maybe without the industry telling her what to wear and how to perform she wouldn't even have her own act with her own style... the music industry has long since made cookie cutter female "artists" out of whole cloth no-talents with a pretty face and good figure, because Lord knows it doesn't make a shit's bit of difference how talented a female artist is, if she's not gorgeous with a good body and willing to perform how the industry wants them to (like a stripper) rather than how THEY want to the industry won't even talk to them.

What irritates me about Beyonce and every other cookie cutter female pop "artist" is that though she has a nice voice, she is where she is because she's gorgeous, and she sold out to the industry that sexualizes every single female artist. I've heard MANY MANY far more superior singing and performance talents in the local bars and clubs than anything the music industry has pushed on the public. And amazingly, they don't feel the need to wear nothing but their underwear and shake their asses as an excuse for a "performance". Women in the music industry anymore are nothing more than an extension of the sex industry whether they can carry a tune or not. And it makes me sick that people excuse this as if it's perfectly normal and acceptable.

The average person no longer even KNOWS what musical/performance talent is since the music industry decades ago decided we were too stupid to figure out for ourselves what was good and what we liked and instead invented "artists" they jammed down our throats.

And before anyone goes jumping on me thinking I'm prudish, I've worked in the sex industry for something like a decade. Obviously, I don't have a problem with the sex industry, but I sure as shit do have a problem with women being forced to dress and act like a stripper in OTHER industries as if that's all a woman is good for or good at. And I REALLY have a problem that it's accepted as if "oh, she's just enjoying her sexuality". NO, she isn't - she doesn't have a CHOICE but to dress and act like a stripper in the music industry anymore because that's all the music industry will accept when it comes to women.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:07 PM

158. You're making the same points I tried to make upthread, albeit very much more eloquently


Thank you for that!

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:11 PM

159. damn, i like you calling it the way it is.... nt

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

160. +1 nice rant..

This:
"The average person no longer even KNOWS what musical/performance talent is since the music industry decades ago decided we were too stupid to figure out for ourselves what was good and what we liked and instead invented "artists" they jammed down our throats."

Music has been focus grouped, pitch corrected and auto tuned into a steaming pile of crap.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:33 PM

172. I agree that all woman should be allowed in the industry

That does not exclude the sexy ones. It just should include the ones that aren't so sexy. All women should be free, the sexy ones and the not so sexy ones. You should be free to wear sexy clothes and sing, and you should be free to wear not so sexy clothes and sing. That is a problem with the industry. That does not mean that there shouldn't be entertainers like Beyonce. It just means they should make room for others as well.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:21 PM

228. Having been in the record business from 1982 until 2002

I will say I agree with a lot of what you ranted ... in particular about the average person not often enough being exposed to real talent ... but you left out one important element ... and it always gets left out because its so easy just to blame the industry. Most of us, though obviously motivated by monetary success, really wanted to make great records .. Hell, most of us wanted to be the Beatles ... We danced on the a pin head to the fake cries of radio to give them something new ...something different ... and every single time we did ... they wouldn't play it, or if they did work with us to break an artist who was a little over weight, or not so pretty, the PUBLIC would not buy it ... you CAN'T SELL what the public WON'T BUY ... So the INDUSTRY then responds buy packaging what will sell ... gets the blame, and the consumer takes a pass for their own mediocrity ... Yes, there has always been the segment of the industry that if they could would sell you a blank disc for $20 and leave it at that ... but that was never what made the music business flourish ... it was the discovery of true talent ... it has always been driven by youth ... I could go on for some time about the incredible song writers who have catalogs of "hits" that could rip your heart out with integrity who can't get cut anymore, or worse still if they can get cut, they have to give almost all of it away to the here today gone tomorrow "artist" just to get it cut ... so I won't go down that rant ... it obviously does not need to be the motive of every song written to inspire ... its Ok just to be fun and sexy and there is a place for it in the matrix.

As far as your last paragraph goes it makes great points again ... for a moment go to FB and look at profile pics of many young women ... and tell me if you don't think there is a correlation to the push up bra low cut spaghetti strapped tank topped photo(s) we see of our daughters everyday ... and what we witnessed on TV last night ... I think there is .. but no one is forcing these young women to accept that image of themselves except THEM .. really! The work of a tireless generation of women who fought hard battles for equality, and against sexism, only to see it denigrated by a generation of young women who believe that all they have to offer is their sexuality ... saddens me as a father of a 12 year old girl ... What happens when that all fades as it inevitably will?

I've said too much already ... I would like to state before I am executed ... that I am a double grammy winner .. and I have been directly involved in the success of 22 number one singles ... I don't claim to know everything ... but I was in the game ... I remember being brought to tears when Miss Whitney Houston sang the national Anthem ... and she did it with her clothes on ... and her sexuality and her comfort with it, was never in question ... she was elegant ... and she was authentic ..

rt



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Response to rtassi (Reply #228)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:21 PM

235. thanks for your insider viewpoint ...

It really is a chicken-or-egg argument, isn't it?

Does the industry create the images to avoid going broke, and satisfying their public, or does the public demand it because the industry creates it?

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:07 PM

269. huzzah! nailed it right here, thank you. n/t

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:55 PM

288. +1 EXACTLY

Although it's not just women this applies to.

I know of talented male singers who were told by MTV producers they were 'too fat' to be on MTV.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

162. "WE OWN OUR BODIES"...

Yes, you do- and that is what a certain segment of our population is pissed off about. These people wouldn't be bitching if Beyonce' did this in a private show for them only.

On edit: I am not a Beyonce expert, but all off her songs I have heard were about empowered women. This scares the same segment of our nation.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:19 PM

165. The Puritan attitude has cause tremendous psychological damage to women....

It wasn't until the sexual revolution that it became generally known that women can actually ENJOY sex.

After that, it was a matter of curiosity. Look at the popularity of Dr. Ruth telling women to learn about sex. It was a taboo subject to even THINK such things. Coat that with a heavy layer of religion and GUILT and you end up with women committing suicide just because the word got out that they had fun in the back seat of a car.

Women who seemed sexually free are elevated to the status of icons as if it's rare.

If things were honest and equal it would be like this:

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #165)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:35 PM

173. oh, I'm going to have to show that to my daughter. She would love that illustration.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #173)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:57 PM

189. Funny how guys can be honest but not women.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:22 PM

166. If you have it.....flaunt it!


I never understand the furore over entertainers like Beyonce. if she lip-synchs, she is pilloried. If she sings well, she is ridiculed. If she kills it like she did at Superbowl, she is called all sorts of names....wow people, get a life!

I agree with Cynatnite - more power to all the lovely ladies around the world. You are definitely making my day, year and decade!

http://obamadrama.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/any-given-sunday.html

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:41 PM

177. Of course! Whoredom requires profit, which Beyonce surely wasn't... oh wait. n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:42 PM

178. Most women celebrities work very hard to make themselves pornworthy, and..

.. if that's their free choice among many choices that would make them equally successful, so be it.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:46 PM

182. Amen, sister! And can't I enjoy her sexuality without being called an obscene phone caller!

Fucking caller ID. It's ruined my favorite hobby.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:49 PM

184. I didn't see the half-time show and have no idea

what the upset is all about and really don't care. But, as far as I've seen, men or women who have to "flaunt it" aren't doing so because they are "owning" their bodies, they are doing so because they are basically insecure and need a lot of attention. When one is secure it's not necessary to flaunt anything, whether it's body, possessions or intellect. Obvious attention seeking flaunting one's body is, IMO, rather pathetic and desperate.



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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:52 PM

188. This was the ONLY thing missing from the half time show!!!!



A return of Justin Timberlake to the Super Bowl, in an SNL reunion.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:58 PM

190. That's fine and all

I just don't think she is all that talented. But what do I know? Billions of people, and dollars, disagree with me. Not the first time. That's just my opinion, and I am sticking to it!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:48 PM

191. How true!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:02 PM

192. NO

huge men can run around in tights, but a woman in lace think of the children
i love Beyonce. She owns and works her sexuality for all its worth...and she's sweet and down-to-earth to boot. you go girl!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:02 PM

193. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:04 PM

195. Did anyone read the costume designer's take?

The sketches and designer's vision were briefly described in this NYT article: http://runway.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/beyoncs-super-bowl-outfit

I liked the part where he said had "a Valkyrie in mind. More warrior women." I suspect that was in keeping with what he was told about the overall theme of the music: Independent Women, Single Ladies, etc.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Valkyries and embrace this whole theme. When you consider the way warrior women are portrayed in comics and video games, the Superbowl outfits were downright nun-like.

Tastes in music and dance differ widely. That's a good thing, leads to variety and choice. I find the criticisms of the music here really stupid because it's all merely a matter of personal taste and, you know, different strokes and all that. I get my exercise dancing to Beyoncé, Gaga, and Jackson, etc, but I listen to Mozart, Ravi Shankar, et al, just as much.

Bottom line: For those who loved it, glad you enjoyed it! For those who hated it, next time just change the channel, ok?

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:28 PM

222. Well... The Ironic Thing Is... That The "Family Values" Folks... Right, Or Left...

Seem to forget the very means and mechanisms that PRODUCE... FAMILY.

It's been pretty well known for... EVER...

It's even called... REproduction.



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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:31 PM

223. Because The Sexually Repressed Among Us... Cannot Handle The Sexually Secure...

I thought we had a revolution about all that back in the 1970's ???


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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:15 PM

227. "Basically that's what I've seen here"

The thing is that you have NOT seen that here and are simply falsely characterizing what you HAVE seen.

If you saw someone call her a whore, or anything like that, I would like to see the link.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #227)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:39 PM

243. See post #116

The link provided takes you to a just delightful trainwreck of a subthread, but the sentiments expressed outside of that are just as precious.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:35 PM

230. Yes! Sexy women rule! One must ask why the most violent society is also the most sexually repressed.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #230)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:23 AM

257. The two go together

Just look at the middle east or the American South

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:55 PM

233. My God!!!

Beyonce is an absolutely gorgeous woman! Who in their right mind could disagree with that?! She didn't strip for god sakes! All she did was sing, dance and put on an entertaining half-time show! Leave her alone, please!!!

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:32 PM

241. It is time for women to be safe while being who and what they wish.

 


"The Elders say the men should look at women in a sacred way. The men should never put women down or shame them in any way. When we have problems, we should seek their counsel. We should share with them openly. A woman has intuitive thought. She has access to another system of knowledge that few men develop. She can help us understand. We must treat her in a good way."

source: Aboriginal and Tribal Nation News

www.rawforbeauty.com

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:09 AM

246. No

No

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Response to CDub (Reply #246)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:44 AM

248. Why not?

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Response to CDub (Reply #246)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:47 AM

250. Would you clarify what you mean? Thank you and welcome to DU.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:26 AM

247. Some people are just anti-sex.

Same as it ever was.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:57 AM

251. Oh for gods sakes what does her dancing have to do with how much she does or doesn't enjoy sex?

 

Seriously isn't that a jump?

If a little kid starts dancing like that does it mean they enjoy sex? I mean really.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:13 AM

252. YOU ROCK!!!

I am a white male & I too am sick of folks going after women for every little thing they do...Had Beyonce worn full pants & long sleeve shirt it would not have mattered they would have complained about her being boring or whatever.

I am very proud to know there are women out there who do not allow these freaks to deter you from being who you are & wearing what you want.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:23 AM

254. Let me get this right

The pop industries latest generic installment actually represents "women enjoying their sexuality" to you?

I'll let my mom know that what she struggled for, in the end, was corporate America's right to be as sexy as they wish during SBHTS? I'll bet she'll be proud.

At some point, it just gets ridiculous. Almost like going up to a prostitue and saying "I demand that you thank me for having this opportunity to enjoy your sexuality"

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:08 AM

256. K & R

The Germans are so lucky.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:01 AM

258. apparently beyonce has a good enough body....

....and sings and dances well enough to get paid millions of dollars for it.

nothing new under the sun, except the price goes up.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:38 AM

263. Have prudes invaded this liberal site?

Sex appeal has been around since the beginning of time and, as a species, we should all be thankful for that.

I can't believe that people (especially on this liberal site) are actually harrumphing over Beyonce's performance when the history of sex appeal in the entertainment world is so long and well known.

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Response to JazzQuipster (Reply #263)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:23 PM

284. If they have I have better things to do

Than read this site. I think you may be right. Sad this was once a liberal bastion, now I see the wrong wingers infecting here more and more. The "jury" won't even delete outright racism anymore. Goodbye DU.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:14 AM

264. Beyonce could wear a potato sack and look sexy

Ah to be young and sexy....do it while you can, it doesn't last long. Sometimes I wish I had strutted my stuff more when I had it.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:31 AM

265. I don't know.

I don't give a shit about Beyonce one way or another.

I think women should be able to do whatever the hell they want with their bodies without being shamed for it.

At the same time, I think a culture that values women primarily for their bodies is a sick culture, and too many men, at least in the U.S., fall into that category.

I was a precocious 12 year old; I developed early, and I learned early that males were never interested in me, just my body. I was conditioned to "enjoy" the attention, except when I didn't. I got attention from males of all ages, whether I wanted it or not. By the time I graduated from high school, I preferred to hide in shapeless clothing and blend into the crowd. I owned my body, and I protected it by hiding it. Only by presenting myself in as sexless a way as possible could I get people to take what I thought, what I had to say about life or the world, seriously.

As one man explained it to me, women are "life support systems for pussies." That's their value. In a world where there are men who think like that, why would I want to share?

I teach middle school. I spend all day, every work day, with young girls. Some are conditioned at home to think that their main job is to physically impress. As a matter of fact, we just contacted a mother yesterday to let her know that her 13 yo daughter was using her cell phone to send explicit photos of herself to a senior in high school, who texted back, "When do I get to hit that?" We know this, because she was sharing the photos and texts with her 12-13 yo classmates. Mom, when contacted, didn't see anything wrong with it. Maybe I shouldn't, either. I, though, have seen this beautiful, highly intelligent girl completely stressed out about bad hair days, about sweating through her makeup in gym where boys could see her; she spends more time worrying about what she looks like than she does celebrating her worth as a person.

"Showing our stuff?"

When our culture, including the male half, appreciates ALL the stuff, and ALL the bodies, without judgement, I can agree. Until then, I have reservations.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:40 AM

268. Completely agree about that aspect

I didn't think any of her show was in any way whore-ish, sleazy, overly sexualized, or any of the other Puritanical labels that have been sling at it.

I didn't care for the performance, but that's because the genre doesn't speak to me; not because of the dance moves or wardrobe.

Hell, look at the players' tight pants. My sister drools over NFL asses when she watches games. Are the athletes "whores"? For that matter, how many people are squawking about cheerleader outfits?

IMNSHO, people are piling onto Beyonce' because of the lip-sync allegations from the
Inauguration, and they need to chill.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:11 PM

271. It's OK with me.

I like happy women.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:15 PM

278. No offence, but maybe prime time televsion isn't the place for people to enjoy their sexuality.

Personally I have no problem with the human body, but some people do and the superbowl should be pretty g rated.

This is all speculation on my part, I didn't actually watch the halftime show, I never do.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:17 PM

279. I would hope so but the SNF and Fundies disagree

 

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:45 PM

285. Personally, as a woman, I'd enjoy my sexuality a lot better if MEN were dancing suggestively

attractive men.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:51 PM

286. Cynatnite this is both true and false

I so agree with you that women should be able to express their sexuality.

But I don't really think that's exactly what goes on in our society when young, attractive women are 'dancing suggestively' or are barely dressed on prime time television. What they are doing is using their sexuality (or it's being used) as a commodity. That's not the same as enjoying it - except perhaps enjoying the revenue it produces.

It this weren't true, then women of all ages and body shapes would be permitted to 'enjoy' their sexuality by dancing suggestively in scant clothing without being ridiculed. And men as well.

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Response to cynatnite (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:53 PM

287. I enjoyed the half time show

Now this youtube is even more "sexual", but has nothing to do with sex, it is just a happy runner warming up. It is easily the best thing every on the internet, but don't run it at work, although it is probably on the safe side.



Just found it, I'm sharing it with everyone.

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