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Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:15 PM

Florida father with assault weapon forces wife to watch as he kills two sons

Warning! This is very disturbing.

A Florida man armed with an weapon that had once been banned under federal law forced his wife to watch as he strangled one of his sons and then shot a second before turning a gun on himself.

Victoria Flores Zavala told Boynton Beach police that 45-year-old Isidro Zavala went to her home on Saturday with a plan to kill her and their two boys because she had filed for divorce last year, according to WTVJ. But Isidro Zavala decide to spare his wife at the last minute so she could suffer while watching him murder 12-year-old Eduardo Zavala and 11-year-old Mario Zavala.

...

“She tried fighting him off and begged him to kill her and not the children,” he explained. “He told her she was going to stay alive and suffer the loss of them.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/04/florida-father-with-assault-weapon-forces-wife-to-watch-as-he-kills-two-sons/

My god what has this country come to.

251 replies, 13995 views

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Reply Florida father with assault weapon forces wife to watch as he kills two sons (Original post)
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 OP
atreides1 Feb 2013 #1
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #117
Orrex Feb 2013 #121
hack89 Feb 2013 #124
Orrex Feb 2013 #132
hack89 Feb 2013 #135
xtraxritical Feb 2013 #137
Orrex Feb 2013 #138
hack89 Feb 2013 #140
Orrex Feb 2013 #144
hack89 Feb 2013 #145
panAmerican Feb 2013 #193
nomorenomore08 Feb 2013 #207
hack89 Feb 2013 #214
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #143
Orrex Feb 2013 #147
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #181
LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #174
hack89 Feb 2013 #180
Bake Feb 2013 #229
earthside Feb 2013 #176
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #183
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #177
hack89 Feb 2013 #179
AverageJoe90 Feb 2013 #162
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #131
Orrex Feb 2013 #134
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #141
Orrex Feb 2013 #148
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #184
Jenoch Feb 2013 #202
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #166
uppityperson Feb 2013 #185
tblue Feb 2013 #198
uppityperson Feb 2013 #199
Jenoch Feb 2013 #204
nomorenomore08 Feb 2013 #208
REP Feb 2013 #212
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #2
thecrow Feb 2013 #5
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #167
libtodeath Feb 2013 #3
hack89 Feb 2013 #15
libtodeath Feb 2013 #21
Recursion Feb 2013 #25
libtodeath Feb 2013 #30
Recursion Feb 2013 #32
libtodeath Feb 2013 #40
Recursion Feb 2013 #45
libtodeath Feb 2013 #47
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #55
Recursion Feb 2013 #56
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #63
Recursion Feb 2013 #65
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #101
hack89 Feb 2013 #156
Jenoch Feb 2013 #205
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #201
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #200
crim son Feb 2013 #58
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #92
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #108
hack89 Feb 2013 #111
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2013 #115
Capt13 Feb 2013 #119
green for victory Feb 2013 #4
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #7
Myrina Feb 2013 #14
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #35
Recursion Feb 2013 #38
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #41
Recursion Feb 2013 #48
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #95
Recursion Feb 2013 #96
Myrina Feb 2013 #89
AnneD Feb 2013 #93
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #13
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #6
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #12
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #18
Recursion Feb 2013 #19
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #24
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #61
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #83
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #91
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #99
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #112
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #120
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #122
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #123
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #129
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mikeysnot Feb 2013 #125
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #154
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #158
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #160
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #161
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #163
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #164
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #189
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #191
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #195
Jamastiene Feb 2013 #217
CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #50
Lars39 Feb 2013 #97
CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #116
lostinhere Feb 2013 #23
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #68
lostinhere Feb 2013 #126
mikeysnot Feb 2013 #128
lostinhere Feb 2013 #225
spanone Feb 2013 #136
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #139
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #168
HockeyMom Feb 2013 #8
SheilaT Feb 2013 #9
Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #118
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #169
iandhr Feb 2013 #10
Recursion Feb 2013 #22
valerief Feb 2013 #33
Recursion Feb 2013 #34
valerief Feb 2013 #43
thetonka Feb 2013 #98
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #73
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #103
Recursion Feb 2013 #104
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #106
Recursion Feb 2013 #107
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #151
Recursion Feb 2013 #152
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #153
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #170
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #187
Initech Feb 2013 #11
leftyohiolib Feb 2013 #36
October Feb 2013 #44
libtodeath Feb 2013 #51
hollysmom Feb 2013 #16
hack89 Feb 2013 #17
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #26
Recursion Feb 2013 #28
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #31
Recursion Feb 2013 #52
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #59
Recursion Feb 2013 #60
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #64
Recursion Feb 2013 #67
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #71
Recursion Feb 2013 #78
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #81
Recursion Feb 2013 #82
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #142
Recursion Feb 2013 #146
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #188
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #157
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #190
DesMoinesDem Feb 2013 #192
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #194
hack89 Feb 2013 #237
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #238
hack89 Feb 2013 #239
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #242
hack89 Feb 2013 #244
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #245
hack89 Feb 2013 #246
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #247
hack89 Feb 2013 #248
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #249
hack89 Feb 2013 #250
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #251
Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #240
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #241
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #53
Recursion Feb 2013 #54
libtodeath Feb 2013 #29
Recursion Feb 2013 #37
libtodeath Feb 2013 #46
cthulu2016 Feb 2013 #69
libtodeath Feb 2013 #72
DollarBillHines Feb 2013 #39
Recursion Feb 2013 #49
hack89 Feb 2013 #76
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #79
hack89 Feb 2013 #86
DesertRat Feb 2013 #20
valerief Feb 2013 #27
alfredo Feb 2013 #87
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #42
bongbong Feb 2013 #57
NickB79 Feb 2013 #62
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #70
hack89 Feb 2013 #77
amuse bouche Feb 2013 #66
ecstatic Feb 2013 #74
abelenkpe Feb 2013 #75
AndyA Feb 2013 #80
freshwest Feb 2013 #110
AndyA Feb 2013 #127
freshwest Feb 2013 #149
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #171
freshwest Feb 2013 #175
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #216
uppityperson Feb 2013 #186
Recursion Feb 2013 #84
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #85
Recursion Feb 2013 #88
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #219
Recursion Feb 2013 #220
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #222
Recursion Feb 2013 #224
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Recursion Feb 2013 #228
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Recursion Feb 2013 #232
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Recursion Feb 2013 #234
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #235
Recursion Feb 2013 #236
Iggo Feb 2013 #90
Ian Iam Feb 2013 #94
HockeyMom Feb 2013 #133
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #100
thetonka Feb 2013 #102
FourScore Feb 2013 #105
LukeFL Feb 2013 #196
Not Me Feb 2013 #109
Liberal_in_LA Feb 2013 #113
Cleita Feb 2013 #114
Orrex Feb 2013 #130
JI7 Feb 2013 #150
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #172
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #165
Rex Feb 2013 #173
geckosfeet Feb 2013 #178
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krispos42 Feb 2013 #182
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Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #203
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okieinpain Feb 2013 #209
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #243
davidpdx Feb 2013 #211
jpak Feb 2013 #223
patrice Feb 2013 #226

Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:21 PM

1. !!!!!

Another "law abiding, responsible gun owner"

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:28 PM

117. Obviously he was not law abiding. This was premeditated murder. nt

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #117)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:40 PM

121. The point is that everyone is a responsible, law-abiding citizen

Until they're not.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #121)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:44 PM

124. Every man and woman is a pre-criminal?

interesting way to organize a society - think the worst of everyone and place societal control accordingly.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:59 PM

132. Is that what you think? Because it's certainly not what I wrote.

I'm not saying that every person is a criminal; I'm saying that every criminal was, at one time, a pre-criminal (to use your term). For that reason "law abiding citizen" mantra so beloved of gun advocates is ultimately pretty ineffectual.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #132)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:09 PM

135. You said everyone is a pre-criminal

that implies a certain cynical perspective towards your fellow citizens.

There are some here that would like to regulate human behavior based on the assumption that everyone is a crime just waiting to happen - and it is not just guns. Pre-rapist and pre-dunk drivers are good examples.

I prefer to regulate human behavior based on the view that the vast majority of Americans are responsible and law abiding. If nothing else it minimizes government intrusion into our lives.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

137. Well, it's true, we're all pre-criminals that's why the police are militarized.

 

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:14 PM

138. Show me where I used that term--otherwise you're making a false accusation

Since you're making up a term and blaming me for it, I see no reason to defend that strawman term.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #138)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:26 PM

140. It is that entire "lawful gun owner until they are not" meme

it implies an attitude towards gun owners that is common here - that they are all a crime just waiting to happen. It reflects an attitude that most Americans shouldn't be trusted with guns.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #140)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:34 PM

144. Don't lay your hang-ups on me

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:04 PM - Edit history (1)

The term that you coined and attributed to me ("pre-criminal") implies an inevitability that I didn't express. Therefore I reject the term and will not defend it for you.

Put simply, all people are law-abiding until they are not. That doesn't mean that they must at some point become non-law-abiding; it simply means that if they become non-law-abiding, then at some time prior to that point they were law-abiding.

It's curious that you're so eager to find inevitability in that factual and, frankly, self-evident statement.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #144)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:35 PM

145. OK nt

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Response to Orrex (Reply #144)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:56 PM

193. In the words of Christian Grey, "Fair point well-made!"

Couldn't help myself

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Response to hack89 (Reply #140)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:56 AM

207. Of course not all gun owners are "a crime just waiting to happen." That smells like straw to me.

But can you deny that someone with a gun - all other factors being equal - has a greater means by which to commit violent crimes?

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #207)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:46 AM

214. Of course not

but that does not justify the constant vilification of gun owners. There is no recognition that the vast majority of gun owners are safe and reasonable. "Gun nuts" "gun humpers" "NRA shills" are common prejoritives aimed at anyone who dares to disagree on iota on gun control.

My only point.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:29 PM

143. Oh this is well stated!

It is two different outlooks on how we view our fellow citizens.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #143)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:38 PM

147. But make no mistake--the "pre-criminal" outlook is hack89's, not mine.

Do you lock your car when you park in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Do you lock your house when you leave town for a few days?

If the answer to either question is "yes," then you view at least some of your fellow citizens as pre-criminal, and one wonders by what criteria you make the determination.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #147)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:15 PM

181. I do but I am aware that I live in an area with lots of gangs and crime.

Those are the people I am worried about. Not the average citizen of my part of the city.I trust that most people are trying to live a normal life like I am while being aware that there has always been a subset of the population that preys on others.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:49 PM

174. No where did that person say everyone or anyone is a pre-criminal.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #174)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:40 PM

180. Perhaps the gun wars are getting to me

This is the bigger point I was trying to make.

There are some here that would like to regulate human behavior based on the assumption that everyone is a crime just waiting to happen - and it is not just guns. Pre-rapist and pre-dunk drivers are good examples.

I prefer to regulate human behavior based on the view that the vast majority of Americans are responsible and law abiding. If nothing else it minimizes government intrusion into our lives.


It is a common anti-gun meme - the notion that most Americans can't be trusted with guns.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #174)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 04:38 PM

229. "Law abiding citizen until they're not"

That's what that sounds like to me.

By the way, whether this involved an assault rifle is really irrelevant; he would've done it with a .22 revolver if that had been what he had.

Bake

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:09 PM

176. Of course, we are all 'pre-criminals' ...

... that's why everybody needs to be packing a concealed weapon with which to shoot the other pre-criminals when they decided to become criminals.

If we all weren't pre-criminals then there would be no need to own an arsenal of weapons to protect ourselves with.

How is the NRA going to have a 'surge' of discounted new members and how are the gun shows going to do record business if there isn't universal recognition that anyone standing next to you at any given time is a pre-criminal just one trigger pull away from becoming a criminal?

How hard is that to understand?





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Response to earthside (Reply #176)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:18 PM

183. THis post added nothing to the conversation at hand.

It would be nice to have a discussion without it descending into this type of commentary. Truly. I am so tired of the acrimony and I am having a terrible day. Reading posts that are so negative just makes things all that much worse. There is no such thing as a pre criminal. It is all a stupid(IMO) meme.
Peace, Mojo

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:18 PM

177. A IMPLIES B is does not lead to B IMPLIES A.

 

NEVER. NO WAY. NO HOW. UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES.

Every criminal was once a law abiding person, Does not implie that every law abiding person will (or may) become a criminal.

And it takes pig ignorance or a blind agenda (same thing really) to keep pounding away with the same flawed illogic.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #177)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:36 PM

179. This is such a dangerous agenda:

"There are some here that would like to regulate human behavior based on the assumption that everyone is a crime just waiting to happen - and it is not just guns. Pre-rapist and pre-dunk drivers are good examples.

I prefer to regulate human behavior based on the view that the vast majority of Americans are responsible and law abiding. If nothing else it minimizes government intrusion into our lives."

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Response to hack89 (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:16 PM

162. Agreed with that. n/t

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Response to Orrex (Reply #121)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:54 PM

131. I disagree. Most criminals have a history I would imagine

even if small petty stuff. That is just a popular meme these days IMO
I would bet this man was an abusive husband.
Peace, mojo

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #131)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:09 PM

134. I'm sure that he was

And you're right that many criminals have a history of some sort.
Most criminals have a history I would imagine even if small petty stuff.
I submit that it's a rare person on DU or in society at large who doesn't have a history, by that metric.

Have you ever downloaded a song without paying for it? Exceeded the speed limit? Used illegal drugs? Littered? If so, then you have a criminal history, even if you haven't been caught. It's all about where you put the goal posts.

Let he who is without a criminal history shoot the first gun.


That's why the go-to label of "law-abiding citizen" isn't really useful in discussions of gun regulation. it tends to be more of a term by which gun advocates identify who is ok to own a gun and who isn't, and the criteria are remarkably elastic.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #134)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:27 PM

141. I do doubt that any of us are pure and law abiding in that sense.

In cases like this though there are usually warning signs before the big blowout. The meme that this was a law abiding infers upstanding citizen till this happened is probably imaginary. I am sure that people who have no past do snap every now and then but I don't think it is the norm. I hate that the phrase is used by both sides in the gun issue.
Peace, Mojo

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #141)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:40 PM

148. I think that we've reached a good point of agreement

The term is ultimately pretty useless because it doesn't describe what it purports to describe, and it can be too easily abused by either side of the discussion.

Better to abandon it as a criterion for who should be allowed to own a gun or as a means to prevent sensible gun regulations (e.g., "This will only hurt law-abiding gun owners...")

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Response to Orrex (Reply #148)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:20 PM

184. You are wonderful.

I totally agree with you.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:09 AM

202. You may have seen "Minority Report" too many times.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:29 PM

166. This has nothing to do with guns, but domestic violence

That is the story here. Premeditated murder, and one of the murders was via strangulation.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #166)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:47 PM

185. Seriously. This is a Domestic Violence story and I wish people would get upset about that

rather than the method.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #185)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:54 PM

198. If didn't have a gun, he couldn't strangle them all

At least it would be harder to keep the others at bay. There was a gun. It made things worse. That's a fact.

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Response to tblue (Reply #198)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:56 PM

199. A gun made the domestic violence murders worse, yes. But let's also notice it was DV and be appalled

at that also. There is a lot more to this story than gunz and I am glad a couple other people here notice that also.

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Response to tblue (Reply #198)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:13 AM

204. He strangled his first child. He shot the second child. Your logic does not work.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #166)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:06 AM

208. But as I implied upthread, someone with a gun has a greater means by which to commit violent crimes.

That's a pretty simple, obvious fact. And it's not as if guns and domestic violence, as social issues, can really be separated from each other.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #166)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:48 AM

212. Yes.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:23 PM

2. I think I'd have to be taken directly to the psych ward after experiencing that...

The sheer magnitude of hate in that act is almost beyond comprehension..

I surely hope this woman gets the help/support she is going to need.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:27 PM

5. No wonder she divorced him.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:31 PM

167. Killing a woman's pets for revenge is not at all rare

Killing their children is rarer, but, sadly, not all that unusual. Sociopathic.

No wonder she was divorcing him.

Those poor kids. That poor woman.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:23 PM

3. Nope,no regulations or restrictions needed huh NRA?

the blood of children continues to stain their hands.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:48 PM

15. What law would have prevented this tragedy?

he used a .38 caliber revolver.

There is no evidence he was not allowed to own a gun. There is no evidence the gun was illegal.

So what additional law would have stopped this?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

21. Did you read the article or headline?

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

25. He seems to be the only one who did. The guy had two handguns

One was banned as an "assault weapon" by name (but then sold legally without modification under a different name). That was not the weapon he used.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:06 PM

30. It does not say it wasn`t used.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

32. Yes, it does. It says the non-assault handgun was the one he used

The handgun that was once classified as an assault weapon was found in a duffel bag.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #32)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

40. Wrong,it says he shot himself with the other,nothing mentioned on what he killed the one child with

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

45. Yes, and it's possible he used an axe that they didn't mention, too

Seriously, this is a stretch. They said he used the .38, and that a TEC-9 was found. I still don't see why the phrase "assault weapon" is even in the title.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:13 PM

47. blah blah blah

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:18 PM

55. No it isnt

The pyrase "assault weapon" is in the title because an assault weapon was found at the scene. Sorry you are so offended by that.

You seem more offended by the thought of an assault weapon being mentioned than the crime itself. What's the psychology behind that?

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:19 PM

56. We both clicked on the link

We both reacted. The phrase is there to make that happen. Unfortunately "man kills self with handgun", while equally (and probably more) accurate, doesn't get that same response.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:26 PM

63. Why do you exhibit horror at the thought of a particular gun being blamed for the shooting...

...yet you have zero reaction to horrific nature of the crime itself?

Seriously, what's up with that?

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:27 PM

65. Well, both statements are absolutely false, and frankly beneath you to suggest

The crime makes me sick to my stomach. The choice of headline makes me irritated. Anything else?

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

101. THIS.

Jesus Christ, what the hell is wrong with people? What difference does it make what kind of effing gun the sick bastard used? Fact is, he used a GUN.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #101)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:54 PM

156. And his hands.

lets not forget he strangled both sons first.

Do you think they would be alive if he did not have a gun?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #101)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:16 AM

205. You are correct.

So why is the focus on the kind of gun that was found in a bag that he DID NOT use in this heinous crime?

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:48 AM

201. What the fuck does it matter?

If he'd only had the revolver would the kids be less dead? I can see calling out AW's in cases where the capacity or firing rate makes an actual difference in the number of people injured, or the severity of the injuries. In this case, it makes not one whit of difference. It is simply a pistol.

No difference. Could have used a revolver. Therefore, it is irrelevant, and the primary issue here is Domestic Violence.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:46 AM

200. Point to a revolver mild enough that it wouldn't accomplish what he intended in that horrific

fucking act.

(There is no gun mild enough to point at a child and pull the trigger without horrific consequences, so in this case, it makes little goddamn difference. A 5 shot .38 revolver would have had the same consequences)

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:22 PM

58. A law banning ALL guns

might have. Maybe. And if it didn't prevent this tragedy it might prevent the one that will occur tomorrow. How many people must die before you agree something must be done?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:27 PM

92. We'll never know will we?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:56 PM

108. Excellent argument for a nation with zero laws, dude,

since laws don't prevent crime. I mean really. Why bother to regulate behavior at all? It's not like we have any way to punish bad behavior if someone breaks the law.

I wish we had things like courts and trials and prisons, but we don't.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #108)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:06 PM

111. Of course we need laws

I just wanted to know what specific gun control laws would have prevented this. You are right that there are plenty of laws to punish such behavior after the fact.

I support gun control - all of the President's EOs, universal background checks and limits on magazine size.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:23 PM

115. "What law would have prevented this tragedy?"

We could outlaw being an asshole....

Oh wait,....that's the Republican's worse fear....

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:36 PM

119. Many states..

prohibit carrying, owning or ACCESS to any firearm if a no contact order is issued OR there, are charges of alleged domestic violence, OR other misdemeanor or felonies pending pending. In RI I believe it's 10 years.
Background checks and closing the gunshow/private sale loophole would go a long way.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:26 PM

4. sounds like a case detailed at the NIH

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Annex: The Illustrative Medico-Legal Cases
Case 1

In 1998, a new family doctor, unaware of this adverse reaction to fluoxetine, prescribed paroxetine 20 mg to DS, for what was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder. Two days later having had, it is believed, two doses of medication, DS using a gun put three bullets each through the heads of his wife, his daughter who was visiting, and his nine-month-old granddaughter before killing himself....

So- was this latest killer on drugs that come with a warning of violent behavior?

Does anyone care?

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Response to green for victory (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

7. Blame anything but access the guns and murderous male rage.

Spouse killings and familicides preceeded SSRIs. There's about a 1000 blues or appalachian murder ballads about killing your wife and family.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

14. It's not a 'this OR that' type of situation ...

.... the side-effects of some meds exacerbate 'teh crazy' and having a hair-trigger temper/personality issues AND access to uber-weapons synergize into a particularly dangerous concoction.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

35. Could have been a contributing factor

Might not have been.

My point was that plenty of these types of murders happen without meds. And without assault weapons.

None of them happen without testosterone.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:09 PM

38. Well, very very few of them

There are female family annihilators, just not many.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

41. I know of only one.

Cambodian grandmother in Seattle, Schizophrenic, used a gun to kill her family.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Family-Grandmother-in-shooting-spree-battled-884335.php

Another case of a schizophrenic with access to firearms. the motivation was completely different than this case, in which the motive was utterly cliched.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:14 PM

48. I was thinking of the woman who drove her kids into a reservoir in the car

And I vaguely remember a few others; drowning and poisoning seem to be more common for female FA's.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

95. Along with not killing the children in front of the spouse

This was done to make the wife suffer, so she would experience the pain the narcissistic husband thought she deserved, and leave her with no way to exact justice or find peace. Cruel and typical.

I draw a distinction in the motivations of women who kill their children and men like this.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #95)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:38 PM

96. Right, and not killing the spouse (though this guy didn't kill the wife either)

I posted this downthread but I find it really interesting, a psychiatrist's take on family annihilation and media responses to it:

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/09/8_characteristics_of_family_an.html

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:17 PM

89. What about that woman in Texas several years ago ...

... that drowned all of her children in the bathtub because 'the voices' told her to?

(Can't recall specifics at the moment) ...

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Response to Myrina (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:33 PM

93. Postpartum psychosis...

a frequently misdiagnosed mental illness, frequently poopooed as postpartum depression or baby blues.

Lack of sleep, lack of support, lack of adequate mental care, and a hormonal storm surge will do that to even the strongest person.

That was the case that shook Houston's Med Center to it's foundation. Women's and Pediatric care did a lot of soul searching after that case. They do a much better job of recognizing and treating women suffering from it. No one wants to see that happen again.

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Response to green for victory (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

13. Do you care?

You want to take the blame off the perpetrator and instead apply republican talking points?

Jaysus.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:30 PM

6. He recently became a Mormon as well - very sad story

I'm not sure the Guns caused this particular tragedy.

Bryant

To clarify - i don't think becoming a Mormon did it either (I am a Mormon myself) - I just think he was mentally disturbed.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

12. Guns didn't cause this? I doubt the coroner's report agrees with you.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:53 PM

18. I think a person that disturbed would have done it in some other way

With hand guns possibly (he used a 38 apparently on himself) or with knives or something.

Bryant

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:56 PM

19. Well, the assault weapon he didn't use certainly didn't cause it (nt)

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:02 PM

24. Both of the boys were stangled, so the coroner's report will probably agree with him.

One of the boys was shot in addition to being strangled, but most likely he was shot after being strangled. Even if this guy had no guns at all, those boys would still be dead.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:25 PM

61. Even if this guy had no guns at all, those boys would still be dead.

Really? The gun was used to threaten the family, just because it was not used to kill it was still used in this case.

Remove the gun and how is the guy going to hold back his family and contain them into standing still while he was there killing them.

We have so many unsolved cases of missing persons in this country every year.

How many of these were committed with a gun that we do not know about. Abducted at gun point is the easiest way to subdue someone.....

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

83. Who says they stood still or were threatened with a gun?

The report I read says the mom tried to fight back and even asked for him to kill her instead. That proves that she was not holding back because of fear of the gun and it proves that he didn't need the gun to stop her. Actually, the easiest way to restrain the family would be to use the duck tape that he had on him. An article I read also says that he didn't take a gun out until he had strangled both boys with a rope.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:21 PM

91. So he killed himself with a gun?

So a gun was used in the crime...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #91)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:44 PM

99. ...which doesn't change the fact that the boys would be dead

even if he didn't have a gun. They were strangled. He may or may not have killed himself in another way, but the boys would still be dead.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #99)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:08 PM

112. He fended her off with the gun deal with it.

Are you saying he had magical powers and a force field.

Did you witness the attack?

Are you saying the gun was not brandished in anyway?

Good luck with that.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #112)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:36 PM

120. You made that up. Deal with it.

Was she scared of the gun? No, she begged him to kill her instead, but he didn't. So in what way did he fend her off with the gun? He didn't shoot her. She wasn't scared of dying. Reports say she DID try to stop him. Brandishing a gun would accomplish nothing at all. All you have is your imagination. Deal with it.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #120)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:42 PM

122. project much.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #122)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:43 PM

123. Nope. But you sure do.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #123)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:52 PM

129. sad

really sad... I know you are but what am I.... you must have been a big hit in the playground in second grade.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #129)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:52 PM

155. You wanted a serious reply to 'project much'? LOL

You need an actual argument if you want an actual reply.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #155)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:08 PM

159. right back at yah!

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #120)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:49 PM

125. Didn't catch this the first time.

" Brandishing a gun would accomplish nothing at all."

So a gun nut finally admits to what we all know.

That guns do not deter crime, they are the enablers of it. Thanks for sharing.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #125)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:51 PM

154. If the person you are trying to intimidate doesn't care if they die

of course brandishing a gun doesn't matter. I can look at facts and apply common sense. You obviously can't do either. Thanks for sharing your ignorance.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #154)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:07 PM

158. Reality catch it.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #158)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:10 PM

160. So you admit you are wrong. Good for you.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #160)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:13 PM

161. How lame can you get.

really?

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #161)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:17 PM

163. That's the only explination for your nonsensical posts.

You have no argument, so you lost the argument. You were wrong.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #163)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:23 PM

164. I just love poster that have to proclaim themselves the "winner".

I guess making up details and ignoring facts and then name calling is what you call Winning an argument, then

I will take losing any day.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #189)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:41 PM

191. No I wasn't wrong.

I always knew one off the boys was shot. He was strangled first and would have been killed regardless of gun.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #191)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:00 PM

195. You harped on the innocence of the gun

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2310458

'you see he was finished off with multiple shots AFTER he was strangled, thus the gun sparkles with innocence'

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:52 AM

217. I hope they don't start talking about rope control or banning ropes.

They come in handy a lot of times for various chores outside in the yard.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:15 PM

50. How could he have forced his wife to watch

while he used his hands to kill his kids? Without a gun to hold on her, she would have been free to call 911 if both of his hands were occupied killing someone.

Sorry, but no go.

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Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:39 PM

97. To be graphic,

small kid would just take one hand, other hand points gun.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:24 PM

116. Right

that's my point. Without a gun, he can't kill and threaten wife at same time. Sorry to be so graphic.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:02 PM

23. I have to agree

As a divorced man with children, this killing makes absolutely no sense and should have not occurred. Unfortunately assaults or killings like this occur way too frequently. While working as a cab driver at night, I saw way too many domestic abuse crimes.

The news story is light on details, but it sounds like Mr. Zavala did not use the assault style weapon in the killing of his children. The story states that Mr. Zavala strangled one son and shot himself with a .38-caliber pistol. Additionally, the story says that the police recovered a bag containing the TEC-9 pistol. This leads me to believe that Mr. Zavala used the .38 caliber pistol to kill his other son.

I do have a question. If the term "assault weapon" was not used in the title of the article would this article been a post on DU?

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Response to lostinhere (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:29 PM

68. a gun is a gun.

no gun. harder chance for this act to be carried out.



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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #68)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:49 PM

126. That is nonsensical...

The weapon is not the question. Intent, dedication and drive are. If all three are present, the weapon used does not matter.

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Response to lostinhere (Reply #126)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:50 PM

128. so you witnessed the crime?

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:05 PM

225. No. Did you?

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:11 PM

136. well, he SHOT them with a GUN.

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Response to spanone (Reply #136)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:14 PM

139. Gosh I missed that -I guess i should read more carefully. nt

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Response to spanone (Reply #136)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:35 PM

168. He shot one son, but strangled both

With a non semi auto handgun.

It sounds like he shot the other boy after he strangled him.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

8. Gunshine State

In the top 3 of the NRA's favorite places.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:44 PM

9. Gosh. Why didn't she have a gun of her own?

Not sure whether I'm speaking ironically or sarcastically, so I'll just note that as always, it's the guns, stupid.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:33 PM

118. I would have been hanging off his back fighting him

gun or no gun before I stood by and let children be strangled. Perhaps she did fight him.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #118)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:39 PM

169. The report says she did

It wouldn't take long for a grown man to kill the two boys, and, a grown man could easily overpower an unarmed woman. A few punches and she's down.

He STRANGLED both kids.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:44 PM

10. There are no words that can describe how horrible this is.

But it would be just as horrible if he used a non-assult wepon.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

22. He did use a non-assault weapon

The assault weapon they found was a TEC-9, which became a non-assault weapon when it was called the "AB-10", with no changes whatsoever made to the weapon. And he didn't use it.

He also used his hands on one son. Awful.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

33. If he didn't have ANY guns, the kids could have gotten away. They all could

have fought him off. GUNS SUCK!!!!

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Response to valerief (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

34. No, it says he strangled both. Awful

But they'd still both be dead if he had had 0 guns.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

43. No, that's not what it says. And the kids would have gotten away if he had no gun.

2 kids and 1 wife could beat him with shit and either knock him out or run faster than him.

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Response to valerief (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:41 PM

98. You don't know that

Arguing that the only reason this happened is because of the gun ignores other potential issues in this story.

Why was she seeking a divorce? Perhaps he was abusive. Perhaps he was abusive to the point that the wife and kids were too afraid to fight back or run. Perhaps he had them cornered. Perhaps they were/are not legally in this country and the wife was too afraid to call 911.


Using a story like this to promote either side of the gun argument is disgusting. Ignoring the rest of the story in favor of only focusing on the gun will just end up with more of this happening. The gun was not the root cause of this violence, it was just the instrument used. There has to be more to this story than the guy had a gun and killed his kids and himself.

Using the structure of the argument that this would not have happened if there was no gun one could easily argue that it would not have happened if the wife had not filed for divorce.

Some people are so obsessed with guns that they are like kids with over active ADD. As soon as a gun comes into view everything else disappears so they can get on their soapbox and either promote more guns or promote more gun controls and bans.

Our society is failing not because of guns, it's because we can't have a real conversation about anything anymore.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:37 PM

73. That is not true

and you know it.

You feign horror at the thought of a gun, any gun, being 'blamed' in any crime. That is obvious.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:49 PM

103. You need to stop. Who cares what kind of gun he used?

He shot his kids in front of their mother. And every step of the way you're defending the gun.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:50 PM

104. I'm questioning why the headline said "assault weapon", when the assault weapon was a handgun

and a different handgun was used.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #104)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:52 PM

106. Then write a letter to the editor.

But for Christ's sake, your responses here are disturbingly cold.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #106)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:54 PM

107. Which ones, and why? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #107)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:44 PM

151. The ones that place more importance on proving a gun is innocent than on

expressing a reasonable facsimile of dismay over a gruesome crime. So, pretty much every comment you've made on this thread.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #151)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:45 PM

152. Except that's none of them

But your concern is appreciated.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:46 PM

153. Okay.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:40 PM

170. He killed them with his hands

And shot one after the strangulation, with a .38 revolver, after overpowering his STBE wife. That's what I've read online.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #170)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:21 PM

187. I read he strangled both of them then finished them off with shots

One multiple times. Gun worship strips away a persons sense of humanity.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:44 PM

11. And gun nuts say SUVs kill more people.

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Response to Initech (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

36. to them i say ,well the answer is obvious if suv's kill more people then you dont need a gun to

protect you ,go get an suv - we'll all be safer

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

44. Indeed.

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Response to Initech (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:16 PM

51. Just look at this thread to see the excuses they make

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:49 PM

16. Just wrong,so wrong

I think he would have passed a background test - maybe we need to store guns of divorced couples until they reach a settlement.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:53 PM

17. The "assault weapon" was not used - it was found in a bag

read the story.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

26. Where in the story does it say the assault weapon was not used?

??

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:04 PM

28. When it says he used the .38, and they found a TEC-9 in a duffel bag

Why is the phrase "assault weapon" even in the headline?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

31. It says he used the 38 "on himself"

Assault weapon is used because the TEC-9 was one of the weapons banned under Florida's now expired assault weapons ban.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:16 PM

52. Yes, fine, it's possible he used the TEC-9 and they didn't mention it

I highly doubt it, but I admit this is a possibility.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:22 PM

59. Answer me this:

Which is more horrific to you? The actual crime, or the thought of the assault weapon found at the crime scene being 'blamed?'

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:23 PM

60. Obviously the crime

You know that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:27 PM

64. If it were obvious, I wouldn't have asked the question

n/t

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:29 PM

67. Yes, you would have, because you like to pretend a moral superiority

Just like I can say "which bothers you more, the crime, or the fact that the gun was branded as a 'TEC-9'"? See how pointless that is?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:33 PM

71. All I have to go by are your comments in this thread

...all of which fixate on the assault rifle being wrongly 'blamed' for the crime. If you are outraged by the crime itself, stop making excuses for the assault rifle and show outrage for the crime itself.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:42 PM

78. It's a *handgun*

all of which fixate on the assault rifle being wrongly

The weapon in question, which was formerly classified as an assault weapon, is a pistol, no more powerful or dangerous than the one he used on himself. I get irritated that we want to ban one and keep the other legal, at great political cost to our party.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #78)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:48 PM

81. You are not fixated on the handgun, you are fixated on the assault weapon

Though I must note, you just tried to excuse THAT down thread by claiming both kids were strangled.

You will obviously say ANYTHING to make excuses for the guns used. In doing so, you keep contradicting yourself, thus an easy target to pick apart.

It is hair on fire, use any excuse, tail chasers in the gun community that make all of us gun owners look like nutcases.

I will never understand 'Democrats' that buy into right wing gun madness.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #81)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:49 PM

82. The assault weapon *IS A HANDGUN*

I don't post gun images on DU, but if you want to see one, google "TEC-9"

It's a pistol, no more dangerous than the pistol he used on himself.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #82)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:29 PM

142. Yeah, so is an UZI

More attempts to obfuscate.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #142)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:35 PM

146. An uzi is a submachine gun. This is a perfectly normal pistol

It's banned based on its name and the fact that rap videos showed it a lot.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:23 PM

188. The smaller variants of which are 'machine pistols'

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #142)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:00 PM

157. Wow, someone corrected your ignorance of the facts

and then YOU bring up an unrelated gun, and then you claim that THEY are trying to obfuscate? Some nerve you got.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #157)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:40 PM

190. You guys remind me of...

...the people that heckled the parent of the Sandy Hook parent that was testifying before congress.

That is what gun worship has devolved into.

Sorry if my point went over your head.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #190)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:44 PM

192. You remind me of some guy that has absolutely no idea what he is talking about

And then invents new ignorant arguments when the facts are pointed out to him. Probably because that's exactly what you are.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Reply #192)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:56 PM

194. Look before you leap

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2310846

Then you may have a clue what I'm talking about.

So, if the TEC 9 is a pistol, and the guy 'only used a pistol' then he must have used the TEC 9, right? It's fun luring you guys into pretzel logic.

Gun nuts are a funny lot. When extreme violence is perpetrated with a gun, they are more worried about the gun than the victims.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #194)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:12 PM

237. We know the TEC 9 was not the pistol that was used

the reports say that he killed himself with a .38. TEC 9 is a 9mm weapon.

There were two weapons - the .38 and the TEC 9. The TEC 9 was found in a bag.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #237)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:54 PM

238. I'm sure you guys are thankful....

...that no assault weapons were harmed in the incident...



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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #238)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:39 AM

239. No - it is the inflammatory headline used to advance a political agenda

Last edited Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

that got our attention.

If every "assault weapon" was to magically disappear it would not made an iota of difference in this case. Yet you continue to fixate on "assault weapon" while ignoring those weapons responsible for the vast majority of gun death and mass shootings.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #239)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:26 PM

242. Only a crackpot would become 'inflamed' by the headline

n/t

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #242)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:35 PM

244. Judging by many of the responses here

there are many that did not get any further then the headlines. So yes, you are correct.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #244)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:38 PM

245. There are three or four people 'inflamed' by the headline

...and they all posted ad nauseum in this thread.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #245)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:43 PM

246. Including you

it is clear you want to make it about assault weapons even though the facts don't support that notion.

Raw story created a headline to get the anti-gun faithful whipped up. It appears to have worked.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #246)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:56 PM

247. I'm not a gun nut

Nice try .

Come to think of it, the same three or four gun nuts hijack every gun tragedy thread with their assault weapon worship.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #247)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:57 PM

248. Nuts come in many different flavors.

why is it so important to you to make this story about assault weapons?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #248)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 02:40 PM

249. And gun nuts come in one flavor

Who is freaked out at the title of the article, you or I? Why is it so important to you that assault weapons always be given a free pass? Why have you adopted Right Wing talking points? I have owned guns all my life and I'm not threatened by gun control. Republican gun positions are sheer madness.

You guys come into this thread not appalled by the tragedy, but googly eyed in mourning for the assault weapon, and spewing Republican gun nut talking points. Then you act flummoxed when you meet resistance? Spare me the outrage.

It isn't like understanding rocket science.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #249)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 02:43 PM

250. I merely pointed out that the headline was misleading

that is not a freakout.

At the moment you seem to be in the throes of an arm flapping freakout as you spew every cliched anti-gun insult you can remember.

Have an nice evening. Have a beer - relax a little.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #250)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 03:05 PM

251. The reaction by gun nuts in this thread

...is one massive freakout.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 08:25 AM

240. YOUR comment shows you're too ignorant/uneducated about guns that you shouldn't even be involved in

this discussion. You don't even know the basics of which gun is what, as you clearly demonstrated by not knowing the difference between a pistol and a rifle. All you see is the word GUN and and start drooling and slobbering all the anti-gun nut memes and talking points.

And just to educate you a little bit, "Assault *RIFLES*", capable of firing fully automatic, have been strictly banned from civilians since the 1930s. You can still own one.. if you have a Federal Firearms License (FFL), have the $2000 transfer fee, the (roughly) $20,000-$25,000 to buy it from another FFL holder, and pass more background checks than it takes to become a Presidential or Vice Presidential candidate.

Knee-jerk, reactionary posting with no knowledge at all about what you're talking about doesn't help the discussion one bit. Do us all, and especially yourself, a favor and at least educate yourself on the subject you're discussing so you don't make yourself look foolish again, like you just did in this post.

Thanks in advance,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #240)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:25 PM

241. You shall sleep well tonight...

...knowing no assault weapons were harmed in the tragedy.

I shouldn't be involved in this discussion? I started this thread. You shouldn't be involved in this discussion. You gun nuts hijack every gun tragedy thread with your "assault weapons are sweet and innocent" Republican talking points nonsense.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:17 PM

53. It was put in the headline specifically to enrage unstable gun creeps who care more about whether

the assault weapon was used than about the butchered children. Why do you ask?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:18 PM

54. Well, I think we both agree the OP gets more traffic because of that phrase

And I'd imagine a similar logic applies to the news article it's quoting.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:05 PM

29. It doesn`t say it wasn`t used,what he shot the one child with is not specified.

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:09 PM

37. I suppose it's possible he used an axe and they didn't mention that too

They said which gun he used. Do they need to name every other thing in the room he did not use?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

46. Whatever,just another excuse from a gun lover

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Response to libtodeath (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

69. Is name calling your solution to all problems, or just important ones?

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:36 PM

72. Truth telling is more like it.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

39. It doesn't say it the TEC-9 wasn't used, but that it was found in a bag.

From article:

"The Palm Beach Post reported on Sunday that Isidro Zavala had killed himself with .38-caliber pistol, but police also recovered a bag with a TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun, extra ammunition, duct tape and cutting shears from the crime scene."

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:15 PM

49. Granted; it's possible he used the TEC-9 and they aren't saying anything about it

I concede that point.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:39 PM

76. The TEC-9 was found in a bag. Both kids were strangled.

And he shot himself with a .38.

The Palm Beach Post reported on Sunday that Isidro Zavala had killed himself with .38-caliber pistol, but police also recovered a bag with a TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun, extra ammunition, duct tape and cutting shears from the crime scene.



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Response to hack89 (Reply #76)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:42 PM

79. One kid was shot and one was strangled

"A Florida man armed with an weapon that had once been banned under federal law forced his wife to watch as he strangled one of his sons and then shot a second before turning a gun on himself."

Typical RW tack to obfuscate and make excuses for the criminal.

To the RW, the thought of the gun being 'blamed' is more horrific than the crime itself.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #79)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:02 PM

86. Actually no - both were strangled and one was also shot.

Just before 2 a.m. Saturday, police found Eduardo, 12, strangled on the back patio. His little brother, Marco, 11, died in the kitchen dining area, both strangled and shot.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/roommate-provides-photo-of-boynton-beach-dad-who-k/nWD36/

How is this making excuses? I know a gun was used. I was commenting on the inflammatory use of the phrase "assault weapon" in the Raw Story headline. Talk about distorting a story to support an agenda.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

20. Horrific nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:04 PM

27. If only he had married a gun instead of a person, this never would have happened.

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Response to valerief (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:02 PM

87. If only the kids were packing heat, this wouldn't have happened.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

42. The Depravity Of America's Gun Culture Is Now Legend

eom

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:20 PM

57. Another "Good Guy" with a gun

 

Courtesy of the NRA, its members, and its chief hand-blood-stainer, Wayne LaTerrorist.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:26 PM

62. Somehow, I don't think this guy was NRA material

With a name like Isidro Zavala, I don't think he'd be welcome at many of their meetings, if you get my drift.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

70. His neighbors said he was a hardworking, church going, helpful neighbor

Lot of Cubans who are hardcore, right wing Republicans in Florida.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:41 PM

77. He strangled the boys. nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:28 PM

66. Guns...guns and more guns

the solution to all problems

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:37 PM

74. A lot of abused women may not realize how important it is to go to trial

in domestic abuse cases. Once convicted of even a misdemeanor, the abuser is banned from buying guns and must turn in his old ones. A history of domestic violence (especially when combined with access to guns and drugs/alcohol) is a top factor in most "familycide" cases. I know this case is a little different in that he strangled the boys first, but he shouldn't have had access to a gun either way.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:39 PM

75. sick sick sick sad story. nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:47 PM

80. How horrible!

The grief the mother is dealing with is incredible. She will never, ever forget. Her life will be changed forever.

Something is terribly wrong with people today, no respect for human life and a penchant for inflicting pain on others.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #80)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:02 PM

110. Although the gun aspect is garnering attention, I've been reading stories just like it for 50 years.

This is the reason battered women often do not leave their violent, psychopathic husbands. Killing the children is what these men do to torment their wives beyond the grave.

I'm relatively sure that social spending for battered women trying to escape such men with their children has been cut in their region - and we must not forget that this woman may have fallen in one of the categories of the VAWA that the GOP opposed - hispanic surnames - possibly immigrants - thus no foul, says the GOP.

We have the GOP elected officials saying that women should stay with such men to maintain the family, but really to keep them off the welfare roll. The dysfunction from them staying with these men creates another generation of tortured souls who act out again or end up in trouble.

There are cases where the woman and children had to be given new identities and moved out of state and hidden from their abusers. It requires a commitment of tax payer dollars and a legal system that refuses to allow it to continue.

Some RW states have, for all practical purposes if not literally, repealed their domestic violence laws because they have no money to enforce them and do what the laws were intended to do - prevent this.

Thanks to our Nordquist, Libertarian style of 'starve the beast' iniatiatives, there will be a lot more of this. The issue is lack of support for this woman and her children. I am not 'pro-gun' but that is not what this is about - the true problem is larger and requires tax money, not new laws.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:50 PM

127. I've heard the "preserve the family" line as well.

Usually, it's an easy out for everyone except the tormented family members. Bottom line: the kids will ALWAYS be better off not exposed to an abusive parent with anger problems.

Republicans don't care about poor people, minorities, women, or children once they pop out of the womb. Instead, the money saved by doing nothing for them could go to corporations and wealthy individuals. Things need to change.

Agree completely that more money is needed to address this, to protect the family members from the abuser, and to get mental health care for the abuser. Throwing a gun into such a situation of course doesn't help.

I wonder what today's kids are going to be like when they grow up. Particularly the ones being raised in a household where the parents spew hate speech, anti-government, anti-gay, etc., thoughts constantly. I think it's only going to get worse until a generation grows up where they are taught equality and fairness for all, respect for others, and acceptance of those who aren't just like them.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #127)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:42 PM

149. There may always be two generations growing up differently and in opposition to each other. Sigh...

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Response to freshwest (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:43 PM

171. Thank for you a sane post

This is a domestic violence/murder incident. He overpowered his wife, and strangled both kids, then shot one he had strangled, and then shot himself.

Poverty and lax laws against helping women (and men) escape abusers is what caused this sociopath to be able to do this.

HE STRANGLED HIS KIDS.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #171)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:00 PM

175. I am more into prevention - that costs money. It's why things get out of hand. We need action.

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Biden has worked to get some more protections, and the VAWA may have helped her. I see some posts saying the man had no problems, was a nice guy, and then whammo. No, that's not the case. It's known that women stay with abusers when there is no support from family or the community to help them and their children make a new life.

Al Franken testified when trying to get the VAWA renewed last year about the number of homeless women and children who were in that situation because of domestic abuse. And how the VAWA was part of funding rape crisis centers and sheltered for battered women and their children.

This should have never happened. There was once a network of shelters and laws to prevent things going this far. Now they are closed down. The woman knew something was wrong, and this man was willing to murder his own innocent children for revenge. That doesn't evolve over night - the signs had to have been there.

GOP lawmakers have vented on women for wanting divorce, child support, housing and protection orders. This is also from a generation that grew up listening to the pure hatred for women that is the province of Rush Limbaugh. He's worse than any of them, Beck, etc. He's still on the air, having inoculated a generation to believe that women are gold diggers and the poor are moochers and no good for other reasons.

This is a national mental health issue - but when it's this big it's not called that - it's culture. I'm not calling him insane unless we are all insane - and we are a little to deny that this requires compassionate pro-active measures. It won't be fixed by name calling or condemning the victims. RWers don't want these folks helped, they want them to disappear and don't care. Now the Earth will take their remains.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #175)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:01 AM

216. Very good post

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Response to freshwest (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:49 PM

186. thank you. This is nothing new, DV and all associated with it have been around for a long long time

To hell with those taking away the help and protection people need to keep themselves and their children safe.

"the true problem is larger and requires tax money, not new laws. " Indeed.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:57 PM

84. 8 characteristics of family annihilators

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/09/8_characteristics_of_family_an.html

There are broadly five types: altruistic, psychotic, unwanted child, accident by neglect, spousal revenge. Although filicide is perpetrated in equal numbers by mothers and fathers, spouse + kid murderers are overwhelmingly men.

That said, the media like to report on only three of these types of filicides: mothers who are psychotic (weak) ; women who are looking to get/please a new man (evil); and fathers committing "altruistic filicide" in which the father thinks he is sparing his family worse suffering by killing them (snapped).


Much more at the link, all insightful.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:02 PM

85. The argument will always

be made that gun laws wouldn't have stopped (fill in the blank) shooting and that since the weapon was legal there's nothing to be done. That because the assailant used a hand gun to commit the crime rather than a hammer it's just fine to own a Bushmaster. This line of fallacious thinking is called the argumentum ad absurdum. By this line of reasoning there is no problem with owning a .50 cal. sniper rifle, a minigun or a howitzer. If pro-gun folks are smart they'll take the deal for the background checks and high-capacity magazine ban while they have the chance. Because after what happened at Sandy Hook they might not want to keep ranting about their gun rights too much.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #85)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:08 PM

88. Hm

By this line of reasoning there is no problem with owning a .50 cal. sniper rifle

There currently isn't. Should there be? How often are people killed with one?

a minigun or a howitzer

I haven't heard anyone suggesting the laws controlling miniguns and howitzers be overturned. Have you?

If pro-gun folks are smart they'll take the deal for the background checks and high-capacity magazine ban while they have the chance.

If you look at what the pro-gun voices on DU, at least, are saying, it's exactly that. Pass useful laws like the ones you mentioned and stop staking everything on pointless feel-good regulations.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #88)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:33 PM

219. First of all,

.50 cal. weapons should be illegal. Use of at least one .50 cal. sniper rifle prompted the authorities to request armored vehicles during the Branch Davidian confrontation and seriously escalated that affair. That no one was killed by that weapon was unlikely due to a lack of intent. The potential carnage such a weapon can inflict is frightening. People are not killed with miniguns and howitzers because they are illegal. You cannot buy one at a gun show. The argument was not about any suggestion on overturning the ban on such weapons. It was to show the logical absurdity of the argument against firearms regulation, and yes, there are plenty of gunslingers out there who feel that way. I know some of them personally, so they cannot be uncommon.

Everyday that passes without federal action on any kind of regulation, meaningful or otherwise, is a victory for the NRA and the gun manufacturers. Everyday nothing is done in Congress increases the likelihood that Sandy Hook will go down the memory hole and the issue will just fade away until the next massacre, at which time the cycle will repeat, and the outcome will be the same.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #219)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 12:34 PM

220. How about a .49 caliber? Would that be OK?

.50 is a pretty arbitrary line; what will moving it a hundredth of an inch one way or another accomplish?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #220)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:37 PM

222. The Russians

make a .51 cal. It does the same think a .50 does. A .49 would do the same thing. Were it up to me I'd ban any long gun bigger than .30 cal.and any handgun larger than a standard .45 cal. No magnums. How's that.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #222)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:58 PM

224. It's certainly within Congress's power; I don't really care one way or another

A gun is a gun is a gun, for the most part, and it's the "everyday" ones that do most of the killing. I'm much more interested in keeping them out of the wrong hands than futzing about on their characteristics.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #224)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:01 PM

227. Excellent!

Then you should have no problem supporting a ban on certain types of weapons, and I'll support background checks to keep the "everyday" variety out of the hands of the wrong people.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #227)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:04 PM

228. I'm not sure I follow that logic

Then you should have no problem supporting a ban on certain types of weapons

It depends. What's the political cost and what good would it do? Passing a regulation that makes AR-15's change their grip shape isn't worth losing a House seat over, let alone the whole Senate. Particularly if it ends up increasing sales of weapons like the last one did.

I'll support background checks to keep the "everyday" variety out of the hands of the wrong people.

How about we just do that one, since we probably only get one swing here, and this one will actually do some good?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #228)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:59 PM

231. Anyone bent on killing

a lot of people quickly and is given a choice will not pick a 30/30 over an AR-15. An assault weapon is called an assault weapon precisely because it is designed for war and nothing else. It is designed for firepower and lethality at close range, as are all assault weapons. You're right to criticize something as stupid as banning the bayonet lug on such a weapon and not banning the weapon itself. So, we need to make sure nothing like that happens this time. Part of that problem is there are too many people supporting gun control who think a gun is just a gun. If the Democrats lost the Congress because they supported reasonable restraints on military style firearms then you probably need to buy your own AR-15 and so do I.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #231)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:03 PM

232. There will still be AR15s if the AWB passes

They will be called something else and have a different grip shape. And if '94 is any guide, they will sell like hot cakes. Why go that way again?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #232)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:47 PM

233. I was suggesting

that all such weapons be banned for what they are designed to do, not for how they look.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #233)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:49 PM

234. I like the sound of that

Too bad we have decades-long Senatorial reputations staked on doing it the other way :/

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Response to Recursion (Reply #234)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:05 PM

235. Then we need to

begin working to see that there are never more than 39 of them in the Senate. Unless someone in the majority gets the a pair and takes on the filibusterer.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #235)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:06 PM

236. 236 posts was all it took to get complete agreement on something

Good point

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:20 PM

90. MORE GUNS!

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

94. I've never been to Florida

 

And, after recent events, never shall.

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Response to Ian Iam (Reply #94)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:05 PM

133. You don't want to

New Yorker tranplanted by job to Florida.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:45 PM

100. Domestic violence, "traditional" gender roles, power, conrtrol, GUNS.

They all go together. I don't know what else to say. This is awful.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

102. He is another article with some more details

Sounds like this was planned out. I can't imagine what that women and the son who is still alive are going through.



A man strangled his two sons in the South Florida home of his estranged wife, telling her she would live to suffer from the pain of their deaths before he shot himself.

Victoria Flores Zavala unsuccessfully fought to save her 12- and 11-year-old sons from Isidro Zavala, the Palm Beach Post reported. She offered to sacrifice herself if he'd spare the boys, but she couldn't stop him early Saturday morning.

“She said, ‘Why won’t you kill me?’ He said, ‘No, you’re going to live with this," according to Boynton Beach Police Chief Matthew Immler.

The violence began around 2 a.m. when Victoria was roused from watching television by a loud noise, the Associated Press said. She came upon her spouse choking one of the children.

Cops found the body of Eduardo, 12, strangled in the patio area of the house. 11-year-old Marco's body was found strangled and shot in the dining area.

"This is an unusually brutal type of murder," Immler said.

The couple had been married for 20 years when Victoria filed for divorce in October, according to CBS Miami. Police said there was no history of domestic violence calls to their home where the murders took place.

Police ascertained that Zavala, 45, planned the murder for days. In the apartment he rented, they found a bag stuffed with a semi-automatic handgun, cutting shears, duct tape and a note to the couple's eldest son, who was not present during the killings, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported.

Zavala owned a landscaping business and was described as a devoted, yet demanding father. He was regularly in the stands at his sons Little League baseball games, but removed Eduardo from his team to make him focus on school.

The oldest son Emanuel, 19, said he'd visited his father on Friday and invited him to watch the Super Bowl with him, according to NBC News.

"He was not a bad man," Emanuel said, according to NBC. "He was always a hard worker, trying to give us the best life he could."

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:51 PM

105. I wish I hadn't read this. I think I'm going to be sick. n/t

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Response to FourScore (Reply #105)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:04 PM

196. :( me too felt nauseous

Sometimes I wish some topic and real life tragedy should not be posted here.

We live in such dangerous world that DU should be a place to discuss just politics.

But I understand why is done... I Judy wish these things should be flagged or Red marked as a warning.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:58 PM

109. The gun held her at bay while he killed the kids.

Had he moved to strangle the kids *without a gun trained on his wife* she might have been able to put up some kind of a fight such that one or more could have escaped. She must have been frozen in terror looking into the business end of that gun.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:13 PM

113. horrible

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:16 PM

114. That's a result of a patriarchal society. Men think they can make their

women relatives do everything they say and want. The tragedy is that many women believe that themselves. I'm certain that the man had displayed a lot of controlling and bullying behavior before that. It's too bad that woman didn't have the support network to pack up herself and her children and leave him before tragedy struck.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #114)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 03:54 PM

130. That's nonsense

Well, I wish it were nonsense.

A year ago I might have blindly declared that the woman should simply have left with the kids and escaped, but in recent months I've learned just how hard it really is. A good friend trying to escape from her abusive husband learned first-hand the difficulty that women face in those situations. She's an intelligent, strong-willed woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she was justifiably terrified that he was going to kill her, and when she reached out to local women's shelters and the like, she found how very little they had to offer her.

Only when she told them outright that she would likely be dead within the week did them make an accommodation for her, and many months later she still lives in fear that he'll track her down.


It's easy after the fact for people to say that she should have done this or she should have done that; I'm sure that she did what she could to escape with her children, and I'm sure that she'll spend the rest of her life wishing that she could have done more.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #130)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:43 PM

150. in the OP story i believe the woman DID leave him and filed for divorce

but he went over to her home and did what he did.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #130)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:45 PM

172. J17 is dead on with his/her post

That is exactly what happened. And, sadly, this same thing happens EVERY DAY in this country. Often it's the pet that's killed, sometimes it is the children, usually it is the woman herself.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:27 PM

165. Domestic murder

It is not unusual for violent men to kill a woman's children or pet as revenge. How horrible. How horrible.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:48 PM

173. Guns or not, this man was pure evil.

nt.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:26 PM

178. One very lost man who felt he had no choice but to commit this horror

I blame the countries lack of universal mental health csre. It is obscene to bury the military in our tax money while we let people go mad.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #178)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:55 AM

210. Wow, way to take away the guilt of the man.

"Who felt he had no choice"..... Let's face it, this patriarchal culture we live in teaches men that women are their property, and so are kids, and they can do whatever they want with them. If a woman dares leave them, she needs to pay - usually these men kill her pets, or the woman herself, sometimes their children. If we take your view of things, there's an epidemic of mental illness among men, and a great minority of men need to be institutionalized.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #210)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:02 AM

215. Obviously he is guilty. But imo he must be deranged to commit this act.

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:33 AM - Edit history (1)

on edit: Not trying to relieve anyone of guilt - just acknowledging the emotional anguish and that someone could have helped him find another way.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #215)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:45 AM

218. I do understand what you're saying.

I'm just fed up of the typical response to these types of event. Making the perpetrator into a monster, or excusing him by claiming insanity, is a negating of the very real problem this culture (this patriarchal culture) has of men looking at women and children as property. As feminists have been saying for decades, patriarchy hurt men as well as women, and it often corrupts those with underlying issues, as well as denying them adequate coping mechanisms. The mindset of "Men aren't supposed to cry. Men aren't supposed to talk about their feelings. Women cry. Women talk about their feelings. Therefore women are weaker, and worth less than men" is still alive and well and can be found in most cultures. There's a reason why the third leading cause of death for pregnant women is murder by their significant others.

And I know that some might read what I just wrote and say that I'm claiming that the cause is culture, not the men themselves, but we don't excuse people from committing heinous crimes because their culture dictates it (honor killings or FMG) or because they were ordered to (Nuremberg defense.) Men need to change their culture - we feminists can't do everything ourselves. I can't see that any liberal man would want to leave things the way they are right now.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #218)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:26 PM

221. There is that. Which may be a counseling topic.

The fact that someone who can find their way to doing something like this can get their hands on a gun is also a problem.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #221)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 04:53 PM

230. Definitely. The fetishisation of guns in certain segments of the American population is scary.

Unfortunately it's so widespread, and their lobbying power is so great that I cannot see how the US can change it without also changing their entire society, in many areas, not just gun control. In American culture, a life is so little valued compared to the values that are espoused (bootstrap puritan 'freedom',) you'd be excused if you thought it was 1813, rather than 2013.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:18 PM

182. Frank Luntz would be proud

The penetration of the term "assault weapon" as an arbitrary, pejorative, and emotional term in our lexicon is complete, apparently. The screaming headline of the story is the fact that it was committed with an "assault weapon".


Now, probably at least half of the people reading my remarks though an AR-15 or AK-47 was used, and were surprised to find out an "assault weapon" handguns. It also covers shotguns of a certain type, too.


So yeah, despite the fact that "assault weapon" pistols have a shitty layout that the handgun-shooting community has pretty much universally rejected for about a century (heavier, clumsy handling, difficult to holster, hard to conceal), they were banned.


And the fact that the man had, and used, a much older technology gun, the steadfast .38 revolver, in the brutal crime described above in the screaming headline, the focus is on the guy had somewhere in the house a gun that had the magazine in a place that politicians found unacceptable and that the shooting community found stupid.


And those same politicians, having secured the emotional and subconscious reaction in the American psyche, now are trying to expand the definition to include even more guns based on cosmetic features because, hey, it gives them something to run on in 2014. "Standing up to the gun lobby" by banning rifles with pistol grips is surely worth millions of votes and tens of millions of dollars, right? Right?

And it's a welcome distraction from what they didn't do... like regulate the banks, or fight for union rights, or net neutrality, or reforming the campaign finance system, or any of a half-dozen other things they work quietly behind the scenes to subvert. Things they "compromise" with the Republicans with.

I wish they took on the pharmeceutical lobby, or the banking lobby, or the health-insurance lobby, or the carbon lobby, or the prison lobby, with a tenth of the zeal they've spend on banning rifles with protruding pistol grips, or handguns that have magazine mounted outside of the grip.

ANY ONE OF THOSE would save FAR more lives and improve the quality of American life than Feinstein's proposed ban on assault weapons. But... same old story. Follow the money, Lebowski.

The entire firearms industry in America has about $12 billion in revenues (guns and ammunition), and makes about a billion a year in profit.

Bristol-Myers Squibb: $19 billion in revenues, $11 billion in profits.
Astra-Zeneca: $33 billion in revenues, $10 billion in profits
Pfizer: $67 billion in revenues, $10 billion in profits.
Abbott Labs: $39 billion in revenues, $5 billion in profits.
Eli Lilly: $25 billion in revenues, $4 billion in profits.


Follow the money.

Manufacturing jobs that paid decent but not spectacular wages and created decent but not spectacular profits, but jobs that actually created wealth from raw materials, were shoved aside for the sake of high-wage, high-profit industries that produce money but not wealth. Gun makers are the former; pharma and financial services and health insurance... those are the latter. And that's why their precious, precious profits are unmentioned and untouchable by our congresscritters.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #182)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:14 PM

197. Are you implying guns are

Are not part of the problems like banks, Pharma and big CEOs are?

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Response to LukeFL (Reply #197)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:34 AM

213. Certainly not to the extent that those giant corporations are

Remember, guns are used as tools to murder, they are not murderers themselves. The motive to murder comes from other factors, such as greed or hate or criminal business interests (drugs) or whatever.

I don't claim the problem with those corporate giants is that money exists, it's what the transnationals do with them.


40,000 people a year died for a lack of health care alone, 3x the number murdered annually.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:10 AM

203. A horrible, horrible incident causing this woman unimaginable grief...

and the BOYS (not the men) on this thread are arguing about weaponry.

Sick.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:44 AM

206. By the way, not the only such incident reported today:

There's this from California:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014390493

He did it while his wife was traveling overseas.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:28 AM

209. if she had a hand gun avaliable

she could have shot his ass. just saying.

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Response to okieinpain (Reply #209)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

243. Thats what they are saying at Freerepublic

Ever thought that maybe if there were NO GUNS in the family, it may have turned out different?

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:39 AM

211. This guy should be the posterchild (no pun intended) for the assault weapons ban

Someone needs to get a picture of him and put a huge X though it with the slogan "the number one reason we don't need assault weapons, crazy people."

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 01:49 PM

223. This is what happens when the gun grabbers ban 30 round clips

yup

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Response to AgingAmerican (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:17 PM

226. That which calls itself "Christianity" needs to examine its conscience.

It appears, validly so or not, to be a joke, an expensive, cruel joke. People are becoming more and more aware of this, even though some of them are still going through the motions, so there is nothing there when they need it and those who are "saved" think that's the way it is supposed to be.

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