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Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:28 PM

Chris Kyle ran a nonprofit that provided fitness equipment for wounded veterans.

All gun deaths are tragic - all of them - unless, it seems, it gives one the chance to gloat.

Sick.

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Reply Chris Kyle ran a nonprofit that provided fitness equipment for wounded veterans. (Original post)
WilliamPitt Feb 2013 OP
11 Bravo Feb 2013 #1
WilliamPitt Feb 2013 #2
pookieLOL Feb 2013 #29
hrmjustin Feb 2013 #30
pasto76 Feb 2013 #34
hrmjustin Feb 2013 #35
hrmjustin Feb 2013 #42
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #21
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #63
JI7 Feb 2013 #75
Moses2SandyKoufax Feb 2013 #76
RedCappedBandit Feb 2013 #78
JI7 Feb 2013 #80
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #3
BeyondGeography Feb 2013 #4
jehop61 Feb 2013 #5
Not1moreNeocon Feb 2013 #44
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #6
KoKo Feb 2013 #9
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #11
JI7 Feb 2013 #15
KoKo Feb 2013 #16
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #18
KoKo Feb 2013 #24
Not1moreNeocon Feb 2013 #45
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #49
pasto76 Feb 2013 #36
cali Feb 2013 #10
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #13
cali Feb 2013 #7
Mister Ed Feb 2013 #8
dionysus Feb 2013 #46
Mister Ed Feb 2013 #48
dionysus Feb 2013 #54
Schema Thing Feb 2013 #12
KoKo Feb 2013 #19
Schema Thing Feb 2013 #25
JI7 Feb 2013 #27
Schema Thing Feb 2013 #31
The Straight Story Feb 2013 #14
JI7 Feb 2013 #17
KoKo Feb 2013 #22
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #20
madinmaryland Feb 2013 #23
KoKo Feb 2013 #28
kelliekat44 Feb 2013 #52
XRubicon Feb 2013 #26
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #32
jazzimov Feb 2013 #33
JohLast Feb 2013 #50
NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #37
Robb Feb 2013 #38
ca3799 Feb 2013 #39
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #40
Swamp Lover Feb 2013 #41
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #53
Swamp Lover Feb 2013 #55
sadalien Feb 2013 #56
Swamp Lover Feb 2013 #57
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #59
sadalien Feb 2013 #83
Blue_Tires Feb 2013 #91
dballance Feb 2013 #58
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #60
dballance Feb 2013 #64
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #66
dballance Feb 2013 #70
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #73
Recursion Feb 2013 #88
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #89
Swamp Lover Feb 2013 #79
Recursion Feb 2013 #87
derby378 Feb 2013 #43
bench scientist Feb 2013 #47
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #51
SQUEE Feb 2013 #61
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #62
Moses2SandyKoufax Feb 2013 #65
SQUEE Feb 2013 #67
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #69
SQUEE Feb 2013 #72
LanternWaste Feb 2013 #77
SQUEE Feb 2013 #68
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #85
SQUEE Feb 2013 #90
Blue_Tires Feb 2013 #71
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #74
SpartanDem Feb 2013 #81
sadalien Feb 2013 #82
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #84
quinnox Feb 2013 #86
joeybee12 Feb 2013 #92

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:30 PM

1. Thanks for posting this.

The "live by the sword" bullshit on the other thread was fucking contemptible.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:31 PM

2. For reference

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022305246

...and I can't re-post in Meta; I've been asked to refrain from posting in there until the WPT Troll has been run to ground.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)


Response to pookieLOL (Reply #29)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:25 PM

30. You have no class and no life

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:56 PM

34. wrong. he is spot on. unless you think I deserve to be murdered too

Im a combat veteran of the iraq war. I was deployed ten years ago today. When should I expect to die by the sword as well?

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #34)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:01 PM

35. That was a troll that responds too will pitt everyday causing trouble. I was not speaking to the

post itself. I was not speaking to anything else.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #34)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:57 PM

42. I meant no disrespect at all to you.

I wish you the best.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:48 PM

21. As I said, then every single Service Member deserves death

If you go by that logic.

Just appalling, for those of who with loved ones who have -- and are -- serving.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:42 PM

63. Here is what Chris Kyle had to say about those with loved ones in the fight:

"A minute or two later, an Iraqi woman came running up, saw him on the ground, and tore off her clothes. She was obviously his mother. I’d see the families of the insurgents display their grief, tear off clothes, even rub the blood on themselves. If you loved them, I thought, you should have kept them away from the war. You should have kept them from joining the insurgency. You let them try and kill us—what did you think would happen to them?"

So, it applies to Iraqis but not to Americans?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:36 PM

75. he also defended the guy who shot a bunch of afghan civilians

asking if we know what he went through and what he had seen. couldn't one say the same about the afghans/iraqis ?


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Response to JI7 (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:44 PM

76. You could, Chris Kyle wouldn't

because Kyle viewed Afghans and Iraqis as less than human.

Otherwise he seemed like a great guy!

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:51 PM

78. "You let them try and kill us"

How the hell he could write that and not see the irony is beyond me.

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #78)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:01 PM

80. it's the whole us and them thing, THEY are the bad ones

we are the good guys

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:32 PM

3. He did more than that

This place is off the rails.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:36 PM

4. An obvious good guy

They do exist.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:11 PM

5. There's good and bad in all

of us. He also didn't think the President was the moving force that got Bin Laden. A right wing leaning man who killed for a living. I respect his service, however, he was misled by war mongers in the govt. I'm sorry he had to do such horrible things in the name of the USA.

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #5)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:17 PM

6. I agree all of them are tragic, including the 250 lives taken by Kyle

His death was every bit as tragic as those of his many victims.

We need to stop all the killing in our society, we need to stop the type of people who would shoot Kyle just like we should have stopped him from taking so many lives.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:24 PM

9. It was a fellow Marine a Reserve Corporal who shot him , though.

And, who killed his neighbor buddy who was there who was trying to help him through what must be PTSD.

I think more will come out. It's more a "war fatigue" event in my opinion which deserves further examination if the further details show that he had PTSD. Since Craig was so famous I would wonder what being a famous Sniper meant to the killer. No information yet on whether the "Buddie" was ever in the military.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:27 PM

11. That does not make it better or worse

This is not about who killed him, it is about the fact that too many people are senselessly murdered and both Kyle and the person who killed him were part of the problem.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:36 PM

15. the person who killed him had PTSD and Kyle felt the way to help him was to take him to the gun

range.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:39 PM

16. Hey...it's an interesting event and to see what comes out after we find out more

is worth a discussion.

Why are you so angry. I read your statement but, you seem to not want to know what the facts are about what happened. just saying...

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Response to KoKo (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:46 PM

18. I am not angry and I do know what happened

I apologize if I left the impression that I was angry, that was not my intent.

I know what happened, my point is that it is not about who killed him it is about the culture of violence. Both Kyle and his killer were part of that culture of violence as were many of the people Kyle killed no doubt.

My point is that we should mourn everyone who dies, and when a person like Kyle dies we should not pretend the people he killed were not victims.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:06 PM

24. I agree with what you say...being "Peace" person...but, it will be interesting to

follow this event to see what comes out of it. Maybe something that will show the "Effects of War" on those who Profit and those who get caught up in it for Whatever Reason..(youth, lack of jobs, hope of doing something productive, etc.) and become victims?

WHAT are the COSTS OF AMERICAN WARS and INTERVENTIONS? We should follow this because something will be revealed that maybe will cause some dialog that will reveal more.

Just saying...

peace!

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #18)


Response to Not1moreNeocon (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:41 AM

49. That is a false analogy, Kyle did not kill 250 Hitlers

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Response to KoKo (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:03 PM

36. the allegations and insinuation that PTSD was the motive here are baseless

PTSD can manifest in myriad manners. Homicidal behavior is not the only one, and is probably the most rare and extreme.

it would be nice if, for once, the left did not automatically jump on that, furthering and strengthening the stigma of being a combat veteran. Its fucked up. I yelled at a coworker once for being a bully, and literally endangering the lives of bystanders during an emergency response. I was branded immediately as a "ptsd case" and run off the team. All because I got mad that this guy was a shithead, and violated one of our major rules. Nice huh. Try not to be like that.

who knows what happened at that range? you sure as hell dont. are you also a combat veteran? then your 'opinion' of 'war fatigue' - who knows where the hell you got that from - is completely useless and baseless.

I dont know what happened either, and havent speculated on it at all. I will say that taking a veteran who is having problems to a range, which is a huge retrieval cue, just doesnt make goddamn sense. He shoulda taken him fishing or anything else quiet and peaceful.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:27 PM

10. Well that's very Panglossian. I'm far more cynical

Short of some dreadful drugging of the population, it is more than a little unlikely that we can stop all killing.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:31 PM

13. I don't believe we can stop all the killing, but we should still try to stop all the killing

We may never stop every last killing, but we need to try to stop as many as we can.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:21 PM

7. well, not all, but certainly the vast majority

and I agree about the gloating.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:21 PM

8. Thank you.

I couldn't believe it when I saw that the subject line of the very first reply to an OP announcing Kyle's death was:

"haha"


Sick and shameful, for certain.

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:19 AM

46. that was a sarcastic reply by me, *with the sarcasm icon included*, because i thought

the OP was gloating over this guy's death and was a crass OP to write..

he was trying to help a fellow veteran and got killed, and some people are practically giddy about it.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:05 AM

48. I'm very, very sorry to have misunderstood and misattributed you.

I should have reviewed your post before writing about it. If I had, I would have seen the sarcasm icon that I failed to recall, and I would have known that you were not among those uncouth grave-dancers who so appalled the both of us.

I'm very grateful for the correction, and I hope you can accept my apology.



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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:46 AM

54. sure thing, we're cool.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:30 PM

12. I'd never heard of him before yesterday

I immediately started reading and looking at interviews he'd done.


My quick take so far is that he's been selling war porn to benefit himself, once he got out of the military. Of course he just wrote his book to "tell the stories of the toll put on the wives and children back home", you understand.

So I'd have to know A) if such a nonprofit was needed and B) how he "ran" said nonprofit before I'd be impressed by your headline, Will Pitt. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Newt Gingrich runs a nonprofit that "benefits" wounded soldiers and it wouldn't change my calculation on him either.


Further, my gut tells me it will come out that Kyle has been overselling the reality in most of his stories. His first kill was a woman holding the hand of a child... but with a hand grenade in the other hand!!!!!!! He hesitated. Like any good guy with a woman and child in his sights would, for godsakes! His commander said DO IT! TAKE THE SHOT! For god and country he took the shot. The woman went down....

....

... wait for it....

...and the grenade exploded as she fell. And the little steam engine never hesitated to take.the.shot ever again.


But again, the above is from the gut after seeing/reading a little about his book and himself. I'd actually love to be proven wrong on this one. I'd love for it to turn out that he was a stand up guy, just misguided towards war.

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Response to Schema Thing (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:47 PM

19. And then...there's the "battles of Fallujah" that he participated in...

Which is a question, also. But, maybe he was "doing his job." I wonder why a young Marine Corporal would "take out" a fellow marine....unless there was some real bad stuff going on in his mind. It would be a horrendous breach of code...for someone trained as a Marine to do that.

I'm a big Anti-American Invasion Dem...always have been so...this is an interesting thing that happened and I wonder why. War Fatigue...PTSD...something else under the radar that this tragic event happened.

And yeah...I don't take kindly to folks who profit off war...but, I don't know enough yet to condemn any of these people but...want to know what caused this event.

I want our US involvement ended... Diplomacy over WAR.... These wars/involvements are draining the life out of our country.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:07 PM

25. Well yeah, Fallujah was his job.


But bragging about it wasn't.


And like you I wonder about Kyle's killers motive. Will it turn out to be totally a 'mental' episode, or did the guy have a real issue with Kyle or the other victim?

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Response to Schema Thing (Reply #25)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:15 PM

27. it seems like a mental episode with the gun shots triggering it

if it was some personal issue against them wouldn't he have tried to kill them some other way, where he can't get caught ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:34 PM

31. maybe


but it could have been an argument or threat that escalated.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:32 PM

14. Nicely put. But I wonder why he needed to? Shouldn't the govt provide it?

How much of the defense budget would that have taken up?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:45 PM

17. i don't think the govt provides fitness equipment, maybe they might have some centers

where they can be used while they are healing. but i'm assuming these are for their own personal/private use in their homes.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:54 PM

22. He had his own company...doing private security training. The place he was shot

was gearing up (a Resort) to do "private security training Convention where people paid to attend. He had gone into "Private Contracting" to train. Along with his work with veterans who had PTSD or problems adjusting. That's what I found in reading many articles about him today. It's out there on Google.

It's interesting for us Anti-War folks to watch and see what comes out of this terrible event, though.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:47 PM

20. Some of the Chris Kyle posts are really appalling

Thanks for posting.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:03 PM

23. He is another victim of the senseless gun violence plagueing this country.

Gloating - NO

Pissed off - FUCK YEAH.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:18 PM

28. This event is different in many ways, though. Marine on Marine Killing?

At a Target Practice before a major "paid event" to profit Craig is about to occur where he is training "Private Security Personnel" for a fee at a Resort that has a Target Shooting Range?

And one of the Marines he's trying to help in his "sideline business" kills both Craig and his Buddy who brought him there to "Target Practice?" It's a fascinating and tragic event...that we just don't know how all the first details tie into the relationships amongst those three.

It's wort following this without too many dismissals or judgements about it right now since the Marine who did the deed hasn't spoken out yet.

Just saying.....

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Response to KoKo (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:41 AM

52. Yours is one of the most intelligent posts i have found.

I found much of the same information also. The LOVE of GUN and the seemingly low value of human life is the American tragedy here. There is much more to this story. I am only wary that Mr Rough will be allowed to tell the rest of the rest of the story. Tjanks for your post.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:09 PM

26. Thanks Will. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:44 PM

32. +1!!!!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:47 PM

33. "Blame the victim" - which I thought most of us

here were above.

Granted, I will have to admit that putting a gun into the hands of a known PTSD victim probably wasn't the smartest thing to do. But, he was trying SOMETHING! Which is a lot more than I can say for most people/agencies.

He TRIED. And his efforts cost him his life. That in itself is tragic.

The way he's being treated post-mortem is even more tragic - for the rest of us.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:23 AM

50. Everyone thinks PTSD makes you that "crazy" guy.

I know of two police officers that have PTSD from the war. They do their jobs just fine. PTST comes in many forms, if you think it make people 'Crazy", then you need to do some research over the subject.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:04 PM

37. "17" are the ways that I can presently calculate the way this will be unfairly spun, WillPitt.

So, KR for greater visibility.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:08 PM

38. People are being jerks about it.

But it does suggest an interest in moral calculus -- e.g. how we view a guy who killed 150 people in war vs. a guy who kills 1 outside of a war zone.

I agree, though; all gun deaths are tragic. I've got 151 here in this post alone, and all deserve to be mourned.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:09 PM

39. I'm not 'gloating' at all

I find the thought of 'gloating' repellant and its sad the guy died, but the news reports the shooter has PTSD and that Kyle met him at the gun range to shoot as a form of therapy. Was Kyle trained to provide therapy? Did he have any expertise in the arena? Kyle seemed to have been good at the job he was trained for, but success in one area doesn't mean you are good at everything. I've seen some video from a gun show where he expounded on several subjects and I suspect he suffered a fatal case of hubris.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:14 PM

40. So - He Atoned For His Actions With Good Deeds - Does Not Mitigate The Crimes On Societie's Behalf

eom

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:49 PM

41. This gentleman was a decorated hero and, seemingly a charitable soul.....

 

He spent his life in service to this country and acted on our behalf through orders that were given by democratically elected officials, per our Constitutional system. Prayers for him, the other man killed, and their families.

That said, guns are tools with a very narrow set of functions. They are not noise makers at celebrations or demonstrations, they are not to impress and they are not for recreation, or therapy.

We have got to lose this idea that guns are magic or mystical.

This decorated officer was trying to do a kind thing, but had he decided to help the troubled vet with gardening, art, music or a variety of other options, perhaps these families would not be mourning this evening.

We should not gloat over this tragedy, instead use it for another measure of inspiration to keep up the good fight, and reach sane gun policy reform.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:44 AM

53. He was not a hero.

There is no heroism in the Iraq war. None.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:14 PM

55. Perhaps I should be more clear. This man stood up when called, and carried his share of the load...

 

...while some snotty fucks thought they were making some sort of contribution by "sniping" on a computer keyboard from a safe home, made safe by his sacrifice.

Don't confuse being a coward and imbecile with being an activist of any kind. They are not the same thing.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:22 PM

56. He wasn't called

 

He joined. And got paid. He didn't have to do that. My home isn't safe because this guy chose to be a judge, jury and executioner of Iraqi citizens. Odds are that he killed some innocent people.

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Response to sadalien (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 05:47 PM

57. No one who volunteers gets to choose where they go, and for the most part, how they serve.

 

Everyone who joins the service goes blindly to be assigned per the decisions of the representatives that we elect and control through our intervention, political pressure and elctoral processes. Everyone who volunteers have two things in common, a desire to serve and little say in how our military will choose to utilize their talents.

Our military followed the orders that were made by the gov't we seated, either by election or our failing to defeat individual candidates. One way or another, we are responsible for our gov't. Had you put in half the effort and dedication into influencing our political system that this man put into service to our shared country, perhaps he would not have been sent overseas. If this man ever bore the blood of innocents on his hands, we all shared in that blood- including those who feel they are making a contribution through snarky comments made from the luxurious comfort of anonymity.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:21 PM

59. You are implying that the Iraq war "made people safe"?

On DU? Really? Please do go on.

Here are some quotes from your hero. It is a pretty clear cut case actually. This guy was a sociopath. He clearly chose to be a sniper so he could kill people, and it gave him a feeling of superiority.

----------------------------------------------

"Come to find out, my chief had been regaling them with the after-action reports of my sniping in Fallujah. They’d been sitting around hand-holding the Filipinos and hating life, while I’d been having all the fun."

"another question people ask a lot: Did it bother you killing so many people in Iraq? I tell them, “No.” And I mean it. The first time you shoot someone, you get a little nervous. You think, can I really shoot this guy? Is it really okay? But after you kill your enemy, you see it’s okay. You say, Great. You do it again. And again. You do it so the enemy won’t kill you or your countrymen. You do it until there’s no one left for you to kill. That’s what war is."

"Just because war is hell doesn’t mean you can’t have a little fun. "

"I started rummaging through the complex to see if I could find any cool shit—money, guns, explosives. The only thing I found worth acquisitioning was a handheld Tiger Woods golf game. Not that I was authorized to take it, or even did take it, officially. If I had taken it, I would have played it the rest of the deployment. If I’d done that, it might explain why I am actually pretty good at the game now. If I had taken it."

"Almost as soon as I got into position, I saw two guys skirting around in the distance, looking for a spot to shoot from. I waited until they popped up behind cover. Bang. I got the first one. His friend turned around and started to run. Bang. Got him, too."

"Maybe war isn’t really fun, but I certainly was enjoying it. It suited me. "

"What a shame. Like most of the media, O'Reilly failed to serve his country by hinting that our soldiers are 'savages' similar to the enemy; "Don't you think that they consider you a savage?" Mr. Kyle was brilliant in his answer by as much as saying 'I don't give a damn what they think.' And O'Reilly calling this enemy "human beings' shows how little knowledge he has about Islam and it's 1400 year history of death and destruction of civilizations. If he did just a little research on these "human beings" that this hero killed, he would realize that they are indeed savages and would cut his throat in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. To his credit though, O'Reilly did say that "too many of us don't understand what war is about." Indeed Mr. O'Reilly showed by his questioning this unfortunate reality. "

"On the front of my arm, I had a crusader cross inked in. I wanted everyone to know I was a Christian. I had it put in in red, for blood. I hated the damn savages I’d been fighting. I always will. They’ve taken so much from me. "

"A minute or two later, an Iraqi woman came running up, saw him on the ground, and tore off her clothes. She was obviously his mother. I’d see the families of the insurgents display their grief, tear off clothes, even rub the blood on themselves. If you loved them, I thought, you should have kept them away from the war. You should have kept them from joining the insurgency. You let them try and kill us—what did you think would happen to them?"

"That’s why a lot of people, myself included, called the enemy “savages.” There really was no other way to describe what we encountered there. "

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:27 AM

83. Can't believe people on this board are actually defending this piece of shit.

 

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:32 PM

91. I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion of this

and some of his other excerpts...I know we're not supposed to speak ill of the dead and all that, but the DU I used to know would have shredded this bullshit apart...I mean, he even said he found WMDs, FFS

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:16 PM

58. You Are so Wrong

Just because Bush, Cheney, and the PNAC lied us into the war does not mean that individuals who served didn't commit heroic acts. The transgressions of our leaders should not be foisted upon the troops as if they were guilty of them.

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Response to dballance (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:29 PM

60. And if I were to praise Iraqi troops for their heroism?

They stood up to a stronger enemy, facing certain death. Doesn't that make them heros like the American soldiers?

But you won't find that sentiment here. Try posting an OP praising Iraqi troops for their heroism. I dare you. The truth is that people generally don't respect soldiers per se. They respect American soldiers. Big difference.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:55 PM

64. Your Argument to Praise Iraqi Troops Fails

I'm sure there are several Iraqi who did things like our soldiers did and dragged their fellow troops out of the line of fire after they were injured. I'm sure there were Iraqi soldiers who sacrificed their own lives to save others. Yes, those are heroic deeds.
However, for right or wrong, they were the "enemy" to our troops. One shouldn't praise the enemy. It's not terribly conducive to conducting a war. The Iraqis will be free to write their history of the war and praise their heroes as they see fit.

Your argument fails for another reason. By your argument you'd have us praise the British "heroes" from the revolution, the Central Powers "heroes" of WWI, the Axis powers "heroes" of WWII and so on. All enemies whose troops I'm sure performed heroic acts. But not acts we'd want to praise since they were our declared enemies in those wars. I'd be surprised if you really intended that.

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Response to dballance (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:05 PM

66. So you consider the Iraqis your enemies?

I don't.

The US attacked Iraq. So the US was in the wrong and Iraq was in the right.

I have a German mother and dual citizenship. I don't go around praising the German heros of Stalingrad. This is a lesson that Americans still need to learn.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #66)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:20 PM

70. Get Serious. If UR On the Battlefield Shooting At Opposing Forces They're Enemies

They sure as heck aren't friends.

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Response to dballance (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:28 PM

73. But I am not on the battlefield.

If I were, yes, I'd be saving my ass. Perhaps.

But as a person not "on the battlefield", I do not feel oblieged to honor one particular side.

I guess it comes with being a dual citizen. I don't have the luxury of simply sticking with "my side". If shit started to truly hit the fan, and my two countries where at it again, I would have no other choice than to make an ethics based decision about which side to "support", "honor" or fight for. The respective other side would not be too happy.

Or I could simply walk away from it.

"Full blood" people live in a simple world.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:19 AM

88. There were some damn heroic Iraqi soldiers, fighting with us and against us

Are you just sort of blanket denying that people do heroic things in war in general?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #88)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:25 AM

89. No.

I am saying that I have problem with double standards. I can recognize heroism if I am not required to play favorites among nations.

People who express admiration for the military on this board usually claim that ethical considerations of a particular conflict as a whole should play no role when determining whether an act was heroic or not. Figures like Kyle thus get praised for doing their job within a war of aggression for killing people whose defense of their country was legitimate by any ethical standards.

And yet, you will find no praises of, say, the troops of Assad for their "heroism" in crushing the resistance.

I can thus only conclude that either ethical considerations do in fact play a role, or Americans are somehow seen as special.

Both cases are bad news: The former because it would mean that anyone praising a soldier in the context of the Iraq war does in fact support that war. The later for reasons that should be obvious.

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Response to dballance (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:23 PM

79. Couldn't agree more.

 

One of the reasons I, liked many on this board, worked to keep us from going to war and then worked to end it was FOR the troops and their families. Political activity is very difficult for active duty military, therefore, it is our responsibility to be a voice for those who are not allowed to speak.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:18 AM

87. Huh?

I hope I'm misreading you there.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 09:10 PM

43. As I said earlier, my nephew is a sniper in the Marine Corps

I've known him since he was knee-high to a junebug. He has turned into a fine man, a devoted husband, and a proud Marine.

And if it was my nephew that got killed instead of Chris Kyle and all of these so-called "progressives" started clucking about how he deserved it or some bullshit reference to "gun violence," my rage towards these people would have been totally justified.

I might even start using that "Ignore" feature on these ghouls. Who knows? Never felt a need to before, but let them try me.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 01:20 AM

47. thanks for post Will

A tragedy all the way around, for both Kyle Families and that of the veteran suffering from the PTSD.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:31 AM

51. He was a sociopath with delusions of grandeur.

He viewed Iraqis as sub-humans and enjoyed the killing. He believed that killing people somehow made him a god-like figure.

No, I'm not going to care about this guy. There are regular soldiers and then there are blood thirsty psychos. This guy was the later.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:29 PM

61. You have no clue who he was, and I doubt you are qualified to even make those diagnosis.

Part of war is killing, that's just how it is.
His acts after the war to help his fellow vets are why I hold him in such high regard, what have you done to help a struggling, and wounded soldier.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:33 PM

62. I have a clue who he was.

This is who he was:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2312703

He admits that killing was fun for him. These are the words of a sociopath.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 06:59 PM

65. I agree with you.

He was a person who had few, if any redeeming qualities. I wouldn't want my daughter/niece/sister to end up with a man like him, I wouldn't want a person like him in my life, I wouldn't want to live next door to him, I wouldn't want to personally know him. I see no reason to whitewash his past and overlook his less than admirable qualities on account of his chosen profession.

Unlike the children at Sandy Hook, he was a willing participant in a rotten and unsavory culture. All deaths are tragic, some are more tragic than others...

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:05 PM

67. Again, you have no idea who he was..

You are fixated on one aspect, and what we have to be in combat, and what we feel in country is savage and to you repulsive. I see numerous signs in his words of bravado, and regret.Anyone that has been around the HSLD set sees the bluster is a shield, as is the dark and, to you, twisted humor one has to embrace to survive war with ones soul at least partially intact..
.. but hey if it makes you feel better, go to it. I would be a hypocrite to label your facade of hate and bile and judge you by the same standards you have used to judge him...
so I will pass and say have a nice day.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:17 PM

69. I simply take him by his words.

I have read all kinds of stuff that people who have been in Vietnam, Iraq, WW2 have said. Nothing comes close to those quotes.

These aren't some things he said "in the heat of the moment". Most of these are from his book, so words he has given a lot of thought to. I simply believe him.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:25 PM

72. You've read have you?

How many beers have you put back with old vets, that have let the ol' guard down, shooting the shit with someone who gets it...
Believe me there is a dark humor that seems to permeate the sharper end of the spear, a very unPC, twisted and improper sense of what is kosher, and I have heard far worse things than those accounts you published.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:49 PM

77. Studs Terkels' The Good War- An Oral History of WW2

"I have read all kinds of stuff that people who have been in Vietnam, Iraq, WW2 have said. Nothing comes close to those quotes..."


Studs Terkels' The Good War- An Oral History of WW2. Without cracking it open, I can recall three specific interviews in that book which exceed in ferocity and blood-lust that of your villain-of-the-week.

Attributing evil to one person for one series of deeds is convenient, but, given the human condition in peace, and that same condition in the extraordinary moments of war, it is not merely absurd, but idiotic.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:15 PM

68. or another theory, one far less exciting...

Despite many people wanting this to be about a PTSD vet losing it at a gun range.

The motive here may have been simple greed and envy.. and theft.. how mundane.
But people can feel free to armchair analyze and use a senseless death or two to lash out at another victim..

[link:http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Sniper-suspect-traded-soul-for-a-new-truck-affidavit-says-189729711.html|

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:47 AM

85. Wow....you're talking about OTHER posters engaging in armchair analysis while posting....

....The motive here may have been simple greed and envy.. and theft.. how mundane.

"Irony"....look it up.


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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:30 AM

90. oh, hi.. nice to see you.

What other motivation is there behind theft? Hmm.. Let's see, not one psuedopsych term, merely descriptions of 2 of the 7 deadly... and the use of the word "may"; a qualifier, intended to show possibility, not certainty.

Ironic use of irony in a post, that is verging on meta... if only it had been intended.
I think I like you.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:21 PM

71. I have done no gloating whatsoever over his tragic murder...

but I ain't exactly gonna rend my garments in mourning, either...

I never met the guy, so I can't attest to what kind of person he was, but I at least want to say I found the excerpts from his embellished, self-promoting book at commonquote.com distasteful, to put it mildly...And I won't get into his interview comments, post-Iraq career, or politics...

FWIW, Senator Strom Thurmond did a lot behind the scenes to ensure the survival of HBCUs in the 1980s, iirc...Kyle helping out wounded veterans was of course a good thing, but I'd have to see a lot more weight on this end of the scale before I'd ever call him a "good person"...

So no "gloating" here, but no deification, either...

Just my $.02

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 07:29 PM

74. I'm sure some of the 150+ men he murdered also gave to charity

It is unfortunate that all murderers don't get the same treatment as Chris Kyle.




It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.

-Voltaire

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 05:30 AM

81. Murder? He was a solider doing his job

I bet you're the type that would've spit on vets after Vietnam.

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:23 AM

82. right-wing myth

 

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:39 AM

84. I never talked to a single Vietnam vet who claimed he was spit at, or on, while in uniform....

...returning from, or shipping out to Vietnam.

I was in the US Navy during the interwar period, 1976-1981, and spent three of those years as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer attached to the US Marines at Camp Pendleton, CA. The Vietnam vets I got to know pretty well would have told me if they had ever experienced any type of "spitting" incident.

Anyone who tells you that kind of story has some kind of personal ax to grind.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 07:48 AM

86. well, there are some who don't automatically view all soldiers as heroes

 

I know that is unusual in our military worshiping culture. There is so much "gung ho" military propaganda in the United States culture that its unusual for some to not fall into it.

I have never felt it was heroic or noble to kill people, even if it is a government sanctioning it. And especially for the Iraq war, where we should not have ever been in the country in the first place, and by invading it, showed a clear moral bankruptcy.

And if you think about it, what a sniper does, is not exactly the most heroic of actions. Hiding in a stealthy location, and taking someone out from a mile or great distance through a scope, not so heroic. If talking about heroism in war, I would say the guy who saved his buddies by jumping on and covering a grenade, and got a Navy ship named after him, that was true heroism.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:34 PM

92. Sorry...too bad he died, but he's an example of our gun culture gone nuts...

A shooting range is not good therapy for someone suffering from PTSD

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