HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » The National Review Compl...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 07:13 PM

The National Review Complains That Obama Was Too Hard On Nazis

If you’ve ever needed proof that for many conservatives, there is nothing the President can do right, this should put that question to bed forever. In a January 28th post in the National Review, their beef with the Commander-in-Chief was that he called the Holocaust “senseless violence.”

President Obama issued a statement yesterday to commemorate International Holocaust Remembrance Day. He noted that survivors who bore witness to “the horrors of the cattle cars, ghettos, and concentration camps have witnessed humanity at its very worst and know too well the pain of losing loved ones to senseless violence.” (We noted below how some in Europe chose to mark the day, which takes place each year on January 27, the day Soviet troops liberated Auschwitz.)

The idea that all violence is “senseless” violence is one that has taken deep root on the left; it’s also, unfortunately, one that poses a major impediment to understanding the world.


Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.

So, because there was organization behind the murder of six million Jews, it made sense? Or is it because it made sense to some people, the Holocaust wasn’t senseless? Yeah, my head is spinning too. If, as a country, we can agree upon one thing, let’s please agree that the attempted extermination of a large portion of the population makes no sense. Those who did follow the Nazi party, generally did so out of fear – not fear of the people who were trying to conquer all of Europe – fear of people who had very little, if any impact on their lives. That is misguided. That is deluded. That is dangerous. That is senseless.

***

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/02/01/the-national-review-complains-that-obama-was-too-hard-on-nazis/

42 replies, 6278 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply The National Review Complains That Obama Was Too Hard On Nazis (Original post)
ashling Feb 2013 OP
Enrique Feb 2013 #1
daleo Feb 2013 #2
maddiemom Feb 2013 #40
Ohio Dem Feb 2013 #3
arely staircase Feb 2013 #4
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #5
AlbertCat Feb 2013 #11
freshwest Feb 2013 #6
Initech Feb 2013 #7
FleetwoodMac Feb 2013 #8
Kber Feb 2013 #9
Jerry442 Feb 2013 #10
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #16
appleannie1 Feb 2013 #12
JHB Feb 2013 #13
Cartoonist Feb 2013 #14
underpants Feb 2013 #15
coalition_unwilling Feb 2013 #17
JaneyVee Feb 2013 #18
alphafemale Feb 2013 #19
amuse bouche Feb 2013 #20
SCVDem Feb 2013 #21
alfredo Feb 2013 #22
Anarcho-Socialist Feb 2013 #23
TeamPooka Feb 2013 #24
tclambert Feb 2013 #25
robbob Feb 2013 #42
GodlessBiker Feb 2013 #26
madrchsod Feb 2013 #27
SoapBox Feb 2013 #28
NewJeffCT Feb 2013 #29
heliarc Feb 2013 #30
pasto76 Feb 2013 #32
Orrex Feb 2013 #31
RainDog Feb 2013 #33
skypilot Feb 2013 #34
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #35
PD Turk Feb 2013 #36
Bernardo de La Paz Feb 2013 #37
McCamy Taylor Feb 2013 #38
drynberg Feb 2013 #39
Taverner Feb 2013 #41

Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 07:51 PM

1. Newt Gingrich took exception to that ordinary phrase back in September

the GOP is running out of things to get outraged about, they're resorting to becoming semantics Nazis.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 07:58 PM

2. What Spock said applies to Nazis and their ilk

Madness has no purpose, but it can have a plan.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to daleo (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:23 PM

40. Yep. "senseless" to humane and sensible people. A "plan" to Nazis and the like.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 08:35 PM

3. Unbelievable

What a bunch of senseless asshats.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 08:48 PM

4. arguments as to whether or not all violence is senseless aside

that is clearly not the point the president made (clear even from the quote the NR used.) he was obviously referring to the violence of the nazis specifically, as it was a specific observation of what was was witnessed by survivors of the holocaust "cattle cars, etc.)

somehow this is and example of left-wing pacifism?

the commemoration is traditionally celebrated on the day the soviets liberated auschwitz. a great deal of the soviet counter offensive that liberated that camp and smashed the nazis for good did employ a certain amount of violence to do it. violence i would say that president obama and every president since FDR have praised.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 09:39 PM

5. "Senseless" as in it makes no sense to rational people

 

From Buckley they have fallen all the way to this. The intellectual leaders of the GOP are Limbaugh, Hannity, Palin, Levin, and Newt.

What the hell.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 11:31 AM

11. "Senseless" as in it makes no sense to rational people

It all sound so Ayn Randian to me.... so no rational people are involved.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 09:50 PM

6. Hey, National Review:



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 10:36 PM

7. I'm convinced there is nothing Obama can do that would please these morons.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 08:51 AM

8. This entire article is misguided. Deluded. Dangerous. Senseless.

And is a stark reflection of the Republican ideological bankruptcy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 09:33 AM

9. Um - not sure the argument that the Holocaust "made sense" is a winning one

My free advice to the National Review - don't go there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 10:02 AM

10. Near the end of the war....

...the Nazis were diverting resources from the battlefields to continue the Holocaust. Even by their standards, it was senseless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jerry442 (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:17 PM

16. As Daniel Goldhagen exhaustively documents, in "Hitler's Willing Executioners," even as Germany

 

itself was being invaded on both Eastern and Western fronts, the German people kept marching concentration camp inmates from one facility to another. Almost psychotic behavior, although not sure one can use the word 'psychosis' for an entire people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 12:45 PM

12. Very telling. History repeating itself.

quote

By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.

unquote

Reminds me of the Tea Party of today. Both done waving their nations flag. Both hating unions. Both hating different religions and races.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 12:50 PM

13. Was the writer below his quota on Obama-bashing, or...

...is he normally that dumb?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:02 PM

14. Not defending the article here.

There is a point to be made, but the author does not make it. He misses blindly by attacking Obama, which is all these nuts do.

I am not eloquent enough to explain the point, but I have read similar opinions that do. It has to do with the human mind and the history of dictators and others. The sane among us need to find a way to deal with these people with real understanding rather than just dismiss them as senseless. As another poster wrote, see it Spock's way. This "senselessness" comes from the same human mind we all have. There is a method to the madness that possesses intelligence, not senselessness.

As I said, I am not eloquent enough to explain this difficult approach to madness. Do not take anything I say the wrong way. The author of the article is less eloquent than I.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:12 PM

15. Does the National Review hate Obama? Was the Pope a Nazi?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:23 PM

17. Parsing the words of a madman (the NR author) - not to put too fine a point on it, but

 

Obama did not say that the Nazi violence or the Holocaust was\were senseless. What Obama was saying (quite eloquently) is that the victims of Nazi violence were well positioned to empathize with the victims of senseless violence.

As a leftist, I say that any violence that pits one working person against another is 'senseless.' But violence that pits workers against parasites? I may not approve of it as a tactic, but I would not say such violence is 'senseless.'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:29 PM

18. Oh those poor Nazi's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:40 PM

19. and the remainders of the party of Lincoln said...what?

No...say that again.

I'm not sure everyone heard you the first time.

Republicans are fucking done...nail...coffin. Die there.

If not now soon.

Very soon.

Sane people don't eat this shit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:59 PM

20. These cretins

are ..cretins

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 02:14 PM

21. Prescott Bush

Nuff said!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 03:00 PM

22. The Holocaust was not the first time the Germans slaughtered Jews. Here's a book I highly

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:28 PM

23. They can't see past their hatred of Obama

That they're willing to defend Nazis if he happens to criticise them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:48 PM

24. Good golly Miss Molly, what will they say next?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:05 PM

25. C'mon, Republicans, go back to saying stupid things about rape.

When you call Obama a Nazi, then complain he's too hard on Nazis, you sound even more stupid.

You know what, Republicans? Better yet, just Shut The Fuck Up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tclambert (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 06:35 PM

42. No no; keep talking, keep talking

...all the way to 2014...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 07:30 PM

26. Doesn't modifying violence with senseless mean ...

... that not all violence is senseless, which is exactly the opposite of what the wing nuts claim the President meant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 09:38 PM

27. it`s really a hard job for these folks at national review.

they fall on their collective faces when they muster all their intelligence and still can`t make a case against him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 10:00 PM

28. ...sick.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 10:15 PM

29. The National Review is one of the Republican intellectual leaders

or, what passes for intellectual these days....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 10:20 PM

30. At the risk of playing devil's advocate...

... and I think that the National Review is doing a piss poor job of making the following point:

Weber described two rational modes that apply here... the Zweckrational, and the Wertrational. The zweck is a rationalization of measured potential or a goal oriented rational projection without taking into account an irrational governing emotional or moral foundation. This is much like the comment... "well, you can rationalize anything" Whereas, the Wertrational represents a rational mode where there is a governing moral or foundational principle to actions taken rationally.

Consider the systematic and systemic way in which Hitler and his social programme conducted the mass slaughter of Jews... calculated, categorized and even catalogued. The endeavor was HIGHLY rational, but stemmed from a sort of dissociative madness that featured a primacy of nationalistic identity definition above all other forms of moral or principled action. It is a rational form that suffered from a founding principle (racial purity) that most of us would find abhorrent.

Do I believe that the National Review really intends to make that argument entirely? Not really, but it is important to say that the portrayal of Nazis for example as they are in Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Hogan's Heroes -- as comically senseless goons... who can be easily tricked or discounted, because of their irrationality, is not a real or pertinent interpretation of the Nazi project, and it also could artificially prop up this idea that we are so beyond this kind of rationalized genocidal murder, that it couldn't ever happen again. Well it can and it does.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to heliarc (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 11:50 PM

32. uh, no. your dime store philospophy holds no water


ra·tion·al

adjective
1.agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.

2.having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.

3.being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational.

4.endowed with the faculty of reason: rational beings.

5.of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers: the rational faculty.


attempting to exterminate a race of people, along with 6-7 million additional offenders, is not 'HIGHLY rational'. Its pure insanity. The because the methodology was systematic and organized has nothing to do with rational. The reason they did this was purely irrational. Calculating, yes. rational. Never.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 11:22 PM

31. First, Obama came for the Nazis

Those poor, poor Nazis! Won't someone think of the Nazis?!?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:03 AM

33. that's a shout out to the neo nazis

Republicans are such bottom feeders they, starting with Reagan, reached out to American fascists. Well, actually, Nixon was the first to do this, along with the Southern Strategy that made it possible for Reagan to get into office after making a deal with the Iranian clerics to delay release of the hostages until after the American presidential election.

iow, it's just business as usual for the Nixon/Reagan/Bush Republican Party to embrace fascists and racists and misogynists to get elected. That's now the base of the party.

Russ Bellant wrote about the Republican outreach to far right groups in the U.S.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWAHmLuZeIoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=old+nazis+the+new+right+and+the+republican+party&hl=en&sa=X&ei=40APUZ2JGYWFyQGiFg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:36 AM

35. Maybe TNR has too much sympathy for the Nazis.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:14 AM

36. Hmmm....

Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 10:30 AM

37. TNR wants sensible Nazi violence to replace senseless Nazi violence: their idea of progress. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 08:40 PM

38. National Review: "Holocaust Sensible Violence"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 09:49 PM

39. MUST BE NEAR SPRING, THE RWers ARE DEFENDING

Freakin' Honest to God Nazis!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:25 PM

41. Holocaust Sympathizers nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread