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Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:33 PM

What's wrong with America: 'Why should I pay a toll for someone else's bridge?'

Source: The Stranger
Full title: "Why Should I Be Paying a Toll for Somebody Else's Bridge?" or Everything You Need to Know About What's Wrong With America

Opposing a proposal to toll the I-90 bridge as part of the funding package for the 520 bridge replacement, Mercer Island resident Denise Joffe resentfully asks: “Why should I be paying a toll for somebody else’s bridge?”

Huh. Good question Denise. And why should I pay taxes to pay for somebody else's freeway park lids, or to educate somebody else's children, or to put out somebody else's house fire, or to fight somebody else's war? Why should I pay taxes (or tolls or fees) to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit me, or for any policy I disagree with?

Maybe, Denise, it's because we all live in the same community?

It's this narrowing of our sense of community that I think is one of the most destructive trends in American politics. The sense of national identity and purpose that once bound us together in the interest of a larger common good has gradually eroded into local squabbles over subarea equity and levy equalization and whether users of one bridge have an obligation to pay for another bridge just a few miles away. It makes for an every-man-for-himself free-for-all that might have thrilled Ayn Rand, but that threatens our ability to collectively invest in the public infrastructure and services necessary to assure our future welfare and prosperity.

Read more: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/01/31/everything-thats-wrong-with-america-in-a-nutshell

40 replies, 3488 views

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Reply What's wrong with America: 'Why should I pay a toll for someone else's bridge?' (Original post)
Newsjock Jan 2013 OP
liberal N proud Jan 2013 #1
aquart Jan 2013 #2
WinkyDink Jan 2013 #5
Skittles Jan 2013 #11
liberal N proud Jan 2013 #16
Skittles Jan 2013 #20
Brigid Jan 2013 #18
Skittles Jan 2013 #21
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #25
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #30
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #34
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #3
patrice Jan 2013 #4
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #6
demwing Jan 2013 #7
dsc Jan 2013 #8
longship Jan 2013 #9
OriginalGeek Jan 2013 #12
BobbyBoring Jan 2013 #22
shenmue Jan 2013 #10
Cynicus Emeritus Jan 2013 #13
Mnemosyne Jan 2013 #14
loose wheel Jan 2013 #15
freshwest Jan 2013 #17
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #19
Sirveri Feb 2013 #38
freshwest Feb 2013 #39
NewJeffCT Jan 2013 #23
Brigid Jan 2013 #24
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #26
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #40
ErikJ Jan 2013 #27
XRubicon Jan 2013 #28
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #29
Curmudgeoness Jan 2013 #31
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #32
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #35
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #36
DirkGently Jan 2013 #33
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #37

Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:37 PM

1. Same people oppose school levies because they don't have kids in school

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:38 PM

2. Also dumb.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:51 PM

5. But they WERE students once. Then there's that "property values and good schools" thing.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:12 PM

11. I don't have kids

but I sure do like being around educated people

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Response to Skittles (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:00 PM

16. So you probably support school bond issues when presented locally.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:38 PM

20. CORRECT!!

I feel educated people are in my best interest

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Response to Skittles (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:32 PM

18. And I don't like being around uneducated ones.

Been there, done that. It is to everyone's benefit to have a strong, well-funded public school system. I don't know why so many don't get that.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:39 PM

21. they don't get it because they are selfish assholes!!!

yes INDEED

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:02 PM

25. Except that the school levy agument is the toll argument...

 

...in reverse.

Tolls ARE levied ONLY on those who physically pass from one end of the road or bridge to the other. Yet the entire community and even people a thouand miles or more away benefit.

Somone mentioned community down a ways. Tolls DIVIDE communities one from another.

Tolls don't simply pay for the road or bridge and go away, they're payments to a private equity or publically listed company which expects not only a return on their investment, but profit in perpetuity.

Tolls are privatised tax collection. Even tolls on 100% publically funded roads, since the actual collection process is generally contracted out to a third party.

Road, bridges, ALL commons infrastructure (and I would include power lines, water, gas, sewer, even telephone lines, etc) should be publically funded through taxes levied as broadly as possible. IF there's profit to be made, then it should be made on services utilising those conduits, not the conduits themselves.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:34 PM

30. Agree with most of that but one point..

In this case, we are considering tolling one bridge to pay for the other, so you would be paying the toll for a bridge you did not cross, in this case.

Geographically, they are close enough that the distinction is pretty lame though. You can clearly see each bridge from the other.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:25 PM

34. And such tolls/special levies have a bad habit...

 

...of morphing into general revenue, or being sold off for pennies on the dollar to raise immediate capital. cf. privatisation of parking revenue in Chicago.

SOOOOoooo, what's the bet that once you are able to cross bridge #2, you'll be paying a toll there, AND some numerical jigery pokery will be done to ensure that the toll on bridge #1 remains in place.

New York taxpayers (and taxpayers nationwide) damned well should pay for the meanest little bridge over a backwater Louisiana bayou, else the poorest people in the nation end up helping to pay for an office tower in New York.

The trick lies in ensuring that it's not a four lane pork barrel monstrosity to a handful of summer hunting cabins.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:38 PM

3. This is exactly what is wrong with America. We have lost the good for the community.

 

It's a dog e dog world. The only fair way is everyone pay taxes. I know we all hate to pay taxes.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:48 PM

4. That's a corallary ofthe "If I can't see how I'm going to make a buck at it, it's not worth knowing"

rule that governs boards of "education" now.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:56 PM

6. I use I-90 beause it's closer to where I live than 520

I think a toll is okay but I sure would hope it won't be as expensive as the one for 520. I can't afford to spend that much money on tolls. I'm not poor but between rent, health insurance, food, electric, and gas every penny is spoken for. I guess I could just take the bus if they insist on doing this.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:59 PM

7. You only pay the toll when you cross the bridge

it's like asking why I should pay for a rental car, since I don't own the vehicle

IOW, it's stupidity in action.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:00 PM

8. I have to say that I can understand the complaint

If that bridge toll is the only way they are paying for the new bridge then it does seem unfair.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:00 PM

9. My favorite bridge.


Big Mac, the Mackinac Bridge which takes Interstate 75 between the two Michigan peninsulas.

I remember taking the ferry across the straits while the bridge was being built when I was a youngun'.

It is a beauty. But do not speed when the winds are high, especially over the middle lane gratings. Two vehicles have been blown off the bridge and plunged to their drivers' deaths far below in the deeps of the straits. Since then, speed limits are strictly enforced.

It's still a beauty.

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Response to longship (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:17 PM

12. Been there!

when I was a kid we visited the straights and Mackinac island. I skipped a rock there. We also rode bikes around the island and when I was goofing off I ran into my uncle's bike and crashed him. He had back problems for the rest of his life and I feel bad about it still.

Then we went up to Sault St. Marie and watched a big ship go through the locks.

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Response to OriginalGeek (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:45 PM

22. Me Too!

Took the Ferry when I was a youngun with mom. The craziest thing happened on the way over. A bunch of guys were all tanked up and one of them bet another that he wouldn't jump off the boat. Well, you know how those tanked up folks are! We spent the next 2 hours stopped waiting for the Coast Guard to come arrest this dumb ass!

The Mackinac Island fudge made the whole thing worthwhile though.

It was also cool being in an area where the were no cars. Don't know if that's still the case~

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:07 PM

10. Okay, Denise...

feel free to drive directly into the river, if you prefer.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:17 PM

13. The media and politicians intentionally divide us because it is their bread and butter

 

We need an institution that works to unite us as an American family where we each look after and support one another and our country instead of these ambitious politicians and the MSM that thrive on making us hate each other.

We hate each other because of the media and politicians.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:35 PM

14. Pure unadulterated greed and selfishness. nt

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:42 PM

15. The state gets funds for the gasoline tax

 

The money received from fuel taxes should be set at an adequate amount to cover projects like this. Tolls are a ridiculous idea in the first place. Just build the price into the entire system and set the funds aside to handle stuff like this.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:28 PM

17. The link author is still promoting a toll. Which is a bad idea and harms the poor.

Since he supports toll road financing, he is wrong, but this is valid within that libertarian mindset he seems to have:

Why should you have to pay for this bridge, Denise? Because you are a citizen of King County, of Washington State, and of the United States of America. And that makes the 520 bridge your fucking bridge just like the I-90 bridge belongs to the hundreds of millions of taxpayers who helped pay for it, but will never lay eyes on the damn thing.

Indeed, if there's anybody who should embrace a communitarian approach toward regional transportation infrastructure, it is Mercer Islanders.* Mercer Island, no matter how wealthy it is, could not have afforded to span Lake Washington on its own. Indeed, it is its largely federally-funded bridge that helps make Mercer Island real estate so valuable.


This guy has already given in to the bagger mindset, just wanting it to work. It is possible Denise can't afford it, but he doesn't mention that. To put the burden of the toll on those struggling to travel to work paying for roads that should be from the general fund, is wrong.

Previously tags, license fees and other taxes paid the way for these but they were cut down by the 'starve the beast' libertarian initative-for-hire Tim Eyeman. That was actually on his business office at one time, but at that time, I didn't know it was the Grover Nordquist motto.

Last year, WA rejected an income tax on the wealthy, another of his initatives, as bagger radio screamed bloody murder. And just approved charter schools. We are going down the red state road.

The state is half liberal- social democrat- DINO and GOP- teabagger- libertarian. I am unhappy they forced the DOT - but the GOP method of obstructing anything but privatization of schools, emergency services, social protection agencies, public works, roads and parks has been so effective that a deal was made. They refused to consider any traditional funding for badly needed infrastructure. Liberal voices are being silenced and minimized in media and meetings.

Park lands have been ceded into private hands and ranger staff cut. Some of the communities of so-called liberal bastions around Seattle are onboard with all this privatization or many things and levies are having a hard time passing for schools and other public services. They still do pass now, but the margins are narrow. All elections are closer than they should be for a 'blue' state because of out of state influences. We have had two blantant attempts at stealing the Democratic majority in Olympia and the candidate for Governor last year was onboard with schemes to rig the votes and steal votes. Now we have a GOP SoS and some GOP are trying to rig our votes for the electoral college - may they fall on their faces.

Before, the citizens of the state paid for mass transit and roads for all, and it was the rural red areas that destroyed mass transit in their areas. It made living in the suburban areas great, as the author of the article said. Many of those folks benefit from high paying jobs in Seattle. There will be some maintenance, but in some of the areas, there is less support and the routes and hours have been cut. This was not the desire of Democrats, but the GOP.

Tim Eyeman's initiatives did a lot of this, including the latest one that passed, which is going to put WA in the same boat that CA was for years, unable to levy to pay for needed services. The author's argument is right in a way, but we already lost this war. Myself, and many others will no longer be able to drive across Lake Washington to do business because we can't afford doing this.

I know people having huge problems who once were able to count on public transit to get back and forth to work on the Eastside (the area discussed at link) and having to wait hours for a bus - and sometimes they have to call people to come to get them when the bus is not running as the hours have been cut down. Now those coming get to them pay a toll. Others are unemployed and cannot afford to pay tolls in addition to their other financial problems. So they are losing opportunities from this.

The area discussed, IIRC, and the 520 bridge, not the proposed ones, are getting a free ride from what was federal and state tax dollars in the past. They may want to live like the people in Belle Isle in Michigan and keep the rabble out. The rightwingers are balkanizing the state, sounds like the beginning of another Michigan to me. Sorry, but that's my very negative opinion on this. Others may see this in a more positive light, but I don't. To hell with Ayn Rand and all her fans.

Thanks newsjock for the OP. I agree with your premise and want more of what you do. But am deeply worried about these trends. Here is a link to the regional online blog, horsesass.org on some of this:

http://horsesass.org/?p=31193




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Response to freshwest (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:34 PM

19. I can't stand Tim Eyeman

and I completely agree with your assessment of where the sate is going.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 11:58 PM

38. You got a GOP SoS, that means you lost the fight. Maybe not the war though.

They're going to certify black boxes and 'true the vote' with them. Maybe yours will be a bit more subtle than Ohio and PA though...

Thank God for Debra Bowen, I am going to cry when she's forced out by our insanely stupid term limits.

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 12:25 AM

39. The GOP was not at all subtle in November:

According to a story at the KOMO News web site and picked up by Publicola, Republican volunteers are going door to door in east King County offering to collect people's ballots:

It was Wednesday night that two men showed up at Steve McDonald's door to let him know they'd take his ballot to be counted.

"It was Halloween. There's a lot of tricksters around the neighborhood. I was thinking it was a joke, but they had a very serious look on their face," McDonald said.

The men offered to mail his ballot for him. As it turns out, McDonald had already voted, so the men left. Still, he said it was an odd experience.

"After someone leaves, you're kind of like, did I just get bamboozled? I didn't get bamboozled because they didn't take my ballot, but they sure knew a lot of information about me," he said.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/As-election-nears-state-GOP-using-unique-tactics-177044901.html

McKenna Camp Paying People to Collect Ballots; KC Elections Advises Voters to Send Ballots In Themselves
It's a novel idea, to say the least, to entrust a political party to handle ballots. King County is a Democratic stronghold, and with 1.7 million voters here, Democratic gubernatorial candidate Jay Inslee is counting on strong turnout in King County—though, we can't imagine he'd be happy about Republican foot soldiers working as ballot couriers.

http://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-profiles/publicola/articles/mckenna-camp-paying-people-to-collect-ballots-kc-elections-advises-voters-to-send-ballots-in-themselves

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10821047

Good rapid response by King County Dems and WA State Dems to ballot theft
Washington State Democrats Chair Pelz Calls on Secretary of State Sam Reed to Denounce GOP Ballot Collection Tactics

Seattle -- Today, the Washington State Democrats called on Secretary of State Sam Reed to denounce the recently announced practice by the King County Republican Party of sending Republican operatives to collect ballots. The Washington State Republican Party and the campaign of Rob McKenna have recently been recruiting unknown paid canvassers to go door-to-door collecting ballots, leaving their delivery in the hands of partisan political operatives.

Reed, who recently gave $50,000 to the WSRP, should encourage the Republican party to direct voters to return their ballots through official means, either by mail, at a drop box, or at a mobile drop box. As Secretary of State, Reed is responsible for ensuring the independence and integrity of our elections, and this tactic by Republicans threatens that.

"This looks like a campaign that doesn't know how to run a get out the vote program and is panicking," said Washington State Democrats Chair Dwight Pelz. "Voters in King County have many ways in which to return their ballots, including by mail, in a drop box, or in a mobile drop box. Republicans should be encouraging people to return their ballot through official means, as we and the County have done, but instead they are creating a situation fraught with the opportunity of voter fraud."

"We've learned a lot about Rob McKenna's ethics this week -- from taxpayer-funded trips to Disneyland, to going door-to-door taking people's ballots away from them. This isn't how we conduct fair elections; Rob McKenna's campaign should cease this practice immediately."

The full text of the letter is below:

By Email and U.S. Mail

Hon. Sam Reed
Secretary of State
416 Sid Snyder Ave. S.W.
Legislative Building
Olympia, WA

Dear Secretary Reed:

I represent the Washington State Democratic Party. It has come to our attention that the King County Republican Party is informing voters that they can and should drop off voted ballots not at county election offices or U.S. mailboxes, but instead a temporary pick up locations staffed by Republican party operatives. Worse, these actions are being taken in direct contravention of guidance from the King County Elections Department. http://www.kingcounty.gov/elections.aspx.

This initiative is as ill-considered as it is unprecedented. There is a reason why nonpartisan election officials conduct our elections and the prospect of having partisan operatives collect voted ballots and return them to the elections office is chilling indeed. It is especially concerning in light of press reports from around the country about deliberate efforts by Republican Party officials to disenfranchise Democratic voters by collecting and then destroying their voter registration applications. See, e.g., http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57535950/man-charged-after-tossing-voter-registration-forms-in-virginia/.

Worse, state law makes it a felony for a person to either directly or indirectly offer anything of value to a voter in exchange for a vote. RCW 29A.84.620. The collection and delivery of ballots at the expense of the Republican Party seems a plain and clear violation of that statute.

As Washingtons chief elections officer, I ask that you defend our tradition of nonpartisan election administration and call upon the King County Republican Party to immediately cease and desist from this, frankly, badly misguided effort and consider appropriate legal action if that becomes necessary.

Very truly yours,

Kevin J. Hamilton
KJH:wbs
cc: Katie Blinn, Co-Director of Elections


Announcement by King County Elections

http://www.kingcounty.gov/elections/voting/ballotdropboxes/bdblocations.aspx

King County Elections strongly discourages giving possession or responsibility of your ballot to anyone other than USPS or official King County Elections drop locations.Voters may use the online ballot tracker to confirm that King County has received their ballot.
http://www.kingcounty.gov/elections/ballottracker

The activity of collecting ballots for delivery is not prohibited by law.

King County GOP is collecting ballots at multiple van drop locations in King County

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/politicsnorthwest/2012/11/04/democrats-complain-about-new-king-county-gop-get-out-the-vote-tactic/

“This initiative is as ill-considered as it is unprecedented,” Kevin J. Hamilton, a Washington State Democratic Party attorney, wrote Saturday to Secretary Reed. “There is a reason why nonpartisan election officials conduct our elections and the prospect of having partisan operatives collect voted ballots and return them to the elections office is chilling indeed.”

Reed did not immediately return telephone and email messages Sunday seeking comment.

In a news release, King County officials said the county “strongly discourages giving possession or responsibility for ballots to anyone other than USPS or official King County Elections drop locations.”

County Executive Dow Constantine, a Democrat, and Elections Director Sherril Huff held a news conference in West Seattle this morning to advise voters not to give their ballot to anyone they don’t know.

Send an e-mail to Secretary of State Sam Reed urging he stop paid Republican canvassers collecting signed filled out ballots of voters. This breaks the chain of custody of ballots and opens the process to abuse and fraud. His e-mail is elections@sos.wa.gov . Send a copy of e-mail to Sherril Huff at King County Elections. elections@kingcounty.gov . Thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10821079

Republican voter suppression scam in WA State
From my email--

Voter suppression: Eleanor Munro of the MDC read an email message at the request of MDC Director Joan Burton. Ms Burton’s daughter received a phone call from the Washington State Democratic Voter Identification Committee (which does not exist) noting that because of printer errors she should not vote until she received a new ballot. She wanted to warn members of this effort to keep Democrats from voting.

FBI Voter Intimidation Hotline: 202-514-1888.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10821019

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10821034

Police report says break-in at Democratic Party HQ suspicious
SEATTLE (AP) - A preliminary police report suggests an Election Day burglary at the headquarters of the state Democratic Party might be something other than a routine break-in.

The majority of items taken belonged to important campaign workers and the burglar attempted to make it look like a random crime, the report states.

Police are still investigating and won't speculate on why the office was targeted.

"Unless we know who the suspects are, it's kind of hard to figure out a motive," spokesman Mark Jamieson said Thursday.

Workers arriving about 5:30 a.m. Nov. 6 found the front door smashed. Police secured the building and found offices ransacked. In addition to the Democratic Party, the building held offices for Jay Inslee's campaign for governor and Organizing for America, the campaign to re-elect President Barack Obama.

A window had been broken to get into a director's office and confidential files were rifled through and moved. Other offices that were hit included the media coordinator and fundraising section. A trash can was dumped and used to haul away the stolen property.

More at Link:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Break-in-at-Democratic-Party-headquarters-in-Seattle-suspicious-179514771.html
3

Sorry that's probably TMI, but we've been shocked by what's going on there. Of course we've been under attack since Bush took office - really under attack, financially, every other way from the GOP and they show no signs, between the churches taking people RW of stopping anything. It's insidious.

And I'm sorry you're losing a good one....

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:47 PM

23. So, she lives on an island where she needs to use one bridge

but, opposes funding for another bridge a few miles away? Why should anybody outside of Mercer Island in the state want to pay anything for Mercer Island, Denise? if the I-90 bridge collapsed tomorrow, should the rest of the state pay for it, or just residents of Mercer Island?

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:53 PM

24. This attitude partly explains why . . .

Our infrastructure is in such sad shape.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:04 PM

26. "Mercer Island resident..."

Everything you need to know about the story.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 2, 2013, 01:02 AM

40. you're right about that

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:06 PM

27. Libertarians are for privatizing roads paid for with TOLLS.

So i'm not sure this Denise is Randian either. Shes confused.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:07 PM

28. Because your food, gas, chinese walmart crap, etc

travel in trucks on the interstate system Denise. That's the difference between Mercer Island and Somalia. Too bad you don't get it.



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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:30 PM

29. Tolling 520 without tolling I-90 turned 520 into the '1%'ers freeway'.

Put the toll on I-90 as well, and it'll shift more of the traffic burden back to the northern bridge where it belongs. I say some, not all, because some people will actually drive ALL the way around the lake to avoid the tolls, probably without doing the math and seeing that they are spending more on fuel to do it.


However.

Are we allowed to put a toll on an interstate? I don't know, I heard someone else wonder that earlier today at lunch. Maybe someone knows...

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:41 PM

31. Actually, PA's idiot governor tried to put a toll on Interstate 80.

The way he went about it got shot down by the feds, but not because it isn't possible. From what I heard, it had to do with the way they had completed the paperwork/petition/whatever-it-was that they submitted to the federal government agency (I don't remember the details). So the short answer is, yes, they can put tolls on an interstate, incredibly.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:43 PM

32. Good to know, thank you.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:46 PM

35. I know this is going to be one of those when I was a kid posts but

I remember when a toll was a few quarters. Now it is anywhere from $3 to $5 one way. If they toll the 90 they are going to have to reduce the price. There are going to be people, I am one of them, that cannot pay that much money for a toll. It is definitely a poor tax that many simply cannot pay. Luckily for me I'm about to be moving north of the lake, but for many they will have to deal with this or simply not go into the city. Maybe if the city loses enough business they will make a stink with the state and they can reduce the price.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:51 PM

36. Tolls on federal freeways require federal permission.

The problem with the tolls on SR-520 is that the prices are not reasonable.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:46 PM

33. Civilization is a collective endeavor. Corporations & Randian libertarians would


have us think otherwise, because in the absence of cooperation, they believe they can exploit others.

It's as simple as that, but the effort to push this kind of thinking has been coordinated, widespread, long-fought, and effective. You hear otherwise sensitive human beings clucking about poor people having phones or shoes or refrigerators, while billions in wars and tax subsidies and loopholes whoosh invisibly over their heads.

Great piece.

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Response to Newsjock (Original post)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:39 AM

37. Infrastructure should be part of the commons and paid for with taxes

Why would any be paying a toll (usage fee) for something they don't use and why are we paying tolls at all?

If you want socialism then you levy taxes, if you want fee for use then there ya go but mixing them is a dishonest mess and the mess is usually a set up to pad some fucker's pocket and if not to cover political cowardice in avoiding taxation but making it de facto or probably even worse creating a system of regressive avoidance a little at a time.

Mixing these concepts is playing with fire. I don't get the easy hand on this stuff, democratic control of levies goes out the window and the weight is heaviest on the bottom.

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