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Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:53 AM

Wayne LaPierre Referred To 9000 Gun Laws That Aren't Being Enforced...

Where can I find the list of these 9000 laws so I can read them?

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Reply Wayne LaPierre Referred To 9000 Gun Laws That Aren't Being Enforced... (Original post)
global1 Jan 2013 OP
theKed Jan 2013 #1
global1 Jan 2013 #17
theKed Jan 2013 #18
dsc Jan 2013 #22
Recursion Jan 2013 #2
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #6
Recursion Jan 2013 #7
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #13
hack89 Jan 2013 #24
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #31
hack89 Jan 2013 #32
farminator3000 Feb 2013 #33
hack89 Feb 2013 #34
farminator3000 Feb 2013 #35
hack89 Feb 2013 #36
farminator3000 Feb 2013 #37
Paladin Jan 2013 #14
oldhippie Jan 2013 #8
Recursion Jan 2013 #9
oldhippie Jan 2013 #12
Jarhead1775 Jan 2013 #3
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #4
OneGrassRoot Jan 2013 #5
hack89 Jan 2013 #10
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #16
DevonRex Jan 2013 #25
SailorMike Jan 2013 #28
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2013 #11
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #15
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #19
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #20
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #21
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #27
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #23
Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #26
Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #29
Zoeisright Jan 2013 #30

Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:05 AM

1. Who gives a shit?

The guns used in Newtown were legally acquired...I guess we need 9001 and a means to dispose of dipshit local sherriffs that would rather strut like a peacock for the right wing press than do their fucking job.

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Response to theKed (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:44 AM

17. Look - It Was A Legitmate Request On My Part - As I Just Wanted To React To LaPierre's Contention...

I wanted to do my own research on it and determine for myself if he is right. Is that a crime?

If there are 9000 laws on the books and we're not enforcing them - I'd like to know what they are and why we're not enforcing them.

I have not taken sides on this issue. I'm not a gun owner - nor do I want to be one. But that doesn't preclude me from learning about what people are saying and trying to determine for myself - if what they are saying is true or false.

Your reaction to my question seems a little over the top.

I'm sorry if I'm a person that likes to hear both sides of an issue and then make a decision based on what I learn. I think all of us can benefit if everyone did the same and not be so cemented in our ways that we won't even consider the other side of the argument.

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Response to global1 (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:59 AM

18. I think

I meant "who gives a shit" about what La Pierre says, not you. If that's how it got seen...I didn't intend it.

They're not enforced, because Republican jerkoffs obstruct installing someone to head the ATF, because they strangle any funding for enforcement, and they make local enforcement give federal gun laws the finger. So who gives a fuck what they say. When they take the boot off the throat off gun law enforcement, THEN we can have a discussion on the matter.

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Response to global1 (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:40 PM

22. I don't pretend to know the exact number of laws

but here is a good explanation of why they go unenforced.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-january-16-2013/there-goes-the-boom---atf

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:09 AM

2. If you count up every US code title that refers to guns

(including amendments) you get something north of 9000. If you add state statutes it's 20,000, which is another number you may hear.

Many are enforced right now. One that's not is investigating people who fail background checks: generally it's illegal for them to even try to buy a firearm. Out of several million blocked purchases, there have been something like a hundred prosecutions.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:29 AM

6. wayne's BS about cops not doing their jobs=nixon saying 'not my fault, locks were too weak'

Approximately, one percent of firearms transfers are denied and many times it because of mistaken identity or incorrect records at NICS. Therefore, many firearms transfer denial appeals are successful.

TOTAL non-statistic.

they are supposed to prosecute 100,000 cases of mistaken identity?

Out of several million blocked purchases, there have been something like a hundred prosecutions.


and THEN you misquote his BS, to make it 100 times worse!

there are millions of CHECKS, only 1% fail. (~10,000)

i think the 400 they go after are the morons dumb enough to go try to buy a gat when they have a warrant out.

ATF budget ~$1 million.

so get real.





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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:31 AM

7. So quadruple the ATF's budget and staff

And take away the stupid limitations on what they can do that the GOP put in there.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:57 AM

13. my strategy is to head you off @ the pass

before you work up momentum! (you mean the GOPers PAID BY the NRA)

http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/2013/01/the-nra-hates-gun-regulations-except-when-it-loves-gun-regulation/

The NRA hates the government’s jackbooted agents and loves to whip up its wild-eyed prepper population. Yet the NRA has quietly enacted a lot of regulations of its own which it relies on the same government jackbooted agents to enforce. Who can say hypocrite?

The NRA has embargoed government agencies from analyzing gun data. The true toll of gun violence on society is an unknown–and the NRA likes it that way....

The gun lobby’s Tiahrt Amendment restricts law enforcement officials from fully accessing and using Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) gun trace data. Clerks at the ATF literally write records by hand, circa 1950, because the gun lobby says an automated database would “pose a threat to the Second Amendment.” ...

The NRA has blocked technology to produce “smart guns” that only operate in their owners’ possession, like smart cars.

The NRA actually got a program passed to help people whose gun purchasing rights were revoked petition for them to be restored. “Felons Finding It Easy to Regain Gun Rights,” said a chilling New York Times report in November of 2011.

Even though the NRA got laws passed that make it legal for employees to bring their guns to work and leave them in the company parking lot, that is not enough.

In similar micro-managing behavioral legislation, the NRA is trying to make it illegal for doctors to ask patients if they have guns in the home. It’s none of their business, says the NRA though it will probably permit doctors to stitch together victims of home accidents from the guns they can’t ask about.


Thanks to NRA lobbying, gun manufacturers cannot be sued. Unlike Big Tobacco or Big Pharma,



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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:55 PM

24. Gun manufacturers can be sued

if you are injured due to a design or manufacturing flaw. They can't be sued if you take a perfectly operating gun and commit a crime with it - which I suspect is what you really want.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:23 PM

31. oh, they can be sued for something which never happens, poor gun makers

unless the gun blows up in your face, they're off the hook. how is that not slimy greed at its worst

read this:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/s397/text

section 5. you have to be a lawyer to read it, but it seems designed to let sellers and makers off the hook, but not drug dealers.

this is NOT ALLOWED-
a civil action or proceeding or an administrative proceeding brought by any person against a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product, or a trade association, for damages, punitive damages, injunctive or declaratory relief, abatement, restitution, fines, or penalties, or other relief, resulting from the criminal or unlawful misuse of a qualified product by the person or a third party,

but civil action is allowed against--
drug dealers
sellers that 'know' they are being lied to or that the gun will be used in a crime- which is impossible to prove in court.
makers that don't honor the warranty.

the totally f'ed part is this-
Businesses in the United States that are engaged in interstate and foreign commerce through the lawful design, manufacture, marketing, distribution, importation, or sale to the public of firearms or ammunition products that have been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce are not, and should not, be liable for the harm caused by those who criminally or unlawfully misuse firearm products or ammunition products that function as designed and intended.

so they are saying that guns are intended to murder people, really?

and that's just ONE crappy nra law, here's another 99:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/map-gun-laws-2009-2012


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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:38 PM

32. Why should a company be sued for the criminal act of a felon?

can you give me other examples of where that commonly happens?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 08:48 AM

33. because CORPORATIONS (not people...) are responsible for their products

do you not watch TV? ever notice those personal injury lawyer ads?

so who's gonna be responsible for the felon getting a gun? it sure isn't the cops fault, as the nra so shittily wants you to believe!

OBVIOUSLY, the shady dealer or the idiot who doesn't use a gun safe.

and, yes, of course , makers should be held responsible for what their dealers do.
that 'law' i posted is SO obviously nra BS, you can tell by the 'language' their lawyers wrote it.

wtf is
"we made a extremely deadly consumer product, but all responsibility except the warranty dissolves the instant it goes out our door."

total bullshit.

ever hear about:

Skechers Lawsuit Injury, Injuries | Skechers Shape-Ups Lawsuit ...
yourlegalhelp.com/...consumer...lawsuit.../skechers-lawsuit-inj...
Skechers Shape-ups were with the promise they would help people to lose weight, not cause injuries. If you have been injured call today to file a Skechers Injury ...

Transvaginal Mesh Lawsuit - Class Action and MDL for Bladder Slings
by Jennifer Mesko - in 22 Google+ circles - More by Jennifer Mesko
Dec 20, 2012 – Participating in a transvaginal mesh class-action lawsuit may be another option for women who have been injured by pelvic surgical mesh.

Lawsuits Against Toyota | Nolo.com
www.nolo.com › ... › Dangerous Products & Drugs

Plavix Lawsuit - Class Action Suits - Plavix Dangers
www.youhavealawyer.com/plavix/lawsuit/
Plavix class action suits and individual lawsuits are being reviewed nationwide ... have suffered serious and potentially fatal injuries as a result of the medication.

Fosamax Femur Fracture Lawsuit - Consumer Injury Lawyers
www.consumerinjurylawyers.com › ... › Fosamax
The number of Fosamax femur fracture lawsuits filed against Merck continues to mount. Contact us for more information on filing a Fosamax femur fracture ...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 11:06 AM

34. You just proved my point.

if you sell a defective product that hurts someone while being used for its lawful intended purpose then you can be sued. If someone uses your product in a reckless or illegal manner then you can't be sued. A criminal wilfully breaking the law is not the same as an innocent person taking a medicine that unknowing to him is dangerous.

This is settled law. Think for a moment why car manufacturers are not sued for every accident that harms or kills someone.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:06 PM

35. if you mean proved to be false, sure..let's start at the beginning- reality=past+present+future, ok?

can we agree on that?

http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472115103-intro.pdf

that ^^ from a book 'suing the gun industry' by timothy lytton- you might want to read it actually, if you are into that kinda thing.

i didn't read all 35 pages there (i'm going to later), but:

open the pdf, hit ctrl/F type in 'nra' and look at the

5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 11th instances.

This is settled law. Think for a moment why car manufacturers are not sued for every accident that harms or kills someone.

not settled (please stop saying the nra's fantasies are the way things really are!)
, and i sure didn't say every accident, or every crime. but you keep saying 'not any! none! save the gunz!!!'

This Lawsuit Against Honda Has Plaintiff Lawyers Very Worried ...
www.thetruthaboutcars.com/.../this-lawsuit-against-h...Share
Bertel Schmitt
by Bertel Schmitt - More by Bertel Schmitt
Dec 28, 2011 – Car companies have deep pockets, therefore, they get sued all the time ... 73 Comments on “This Lawsuit Against Honda Has Plaintiff Lawyers ...

blerg..humph...ahem...

The 2005 law has drawn attacks from gun control advocates and constitutional scholars, who portray it as a powerful insulator for gun manufacturers. Why should gun manufacturers, they ask, enjoy a special liability protection not available to other companies that make potentially lethal products?

"Gun companies should be treated the same as any other company. There is no reason to give them special exemption from litigation," said Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the University of California, Irvine School of Law. "It is an outrageous piece of legislation."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/18/newtown-victims-lawsuits-nra-_n_2325721.html

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:12 PM

36. Of course gun control advocates are whining.

their plan was to put guns manufacturers out of business with an avalanche of frivolous law suits. They overplayed their hand as usual and got spanked.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 01:18 PM

37. you're the one ignoring the DEAN of UC IRVINE LAW SCHOOL, bro.

and everything else from my previous post, and frankly, it sounds a bit...whiny.

are you afraid of laws being passed that make your gun, THAT YOU GET TO KEEP, look silly?

same link again that you didn't read, wayne is an asshole, bushmaster got sued for 2.5 mil, didn't go bankrupt, is STILL MAKING THE SAME FUCKING GUN, STILL BLOWING PEOPLE AWAY, but you say 'because 2nd amendment?'

just give up. did you watch the senate hearings? why did all the gun rights people look and sound so horrible?

only one of them made a valid point. Flake was cool. Cruz is hellspawn.

you really agree with those fools that were speaking @ the hearing?

***

The most significant of these cases, and the one perceived as most damaging by the gun lobby, was brought by the families of the 13 people killed or seriously injured over a three-week span by the Washington, D.C.-area snipers, John Muhammad and Lee Malvo. The pair used a .223 Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle, similar to the one police said was used by Adam Lanza to kill 20 children in 6 adults with brutal efficiency in Newtown last week.

In 2004, Bushmaster and the gun dealer settled the lawsuit for $2.5 million in a case that gun control advocates hailed as a "major breakthrough."

The gun lobby agreed. The next year, following a fierce lobbying campaign by the NRA, Congress approved the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which offers a broad shield against lawsuits filed by victims of gun violence. The law does not provide 100 percent immunity, and the The Brady Center, which represented the families in the sniper shooting case, has challenged its constitutionality.

But in the years since, the law has done what the industry wanted: offer protection against litigation that targets it for liability when guns are used to commit crimes. The law also ended all existing lawsuits.

Wayne LaPierre, the NRA chief executive, hailed the legislative victory as a "historic day for the NRA and also for the Second Amendment." He said Congress "saved the firearms industry" by protecting it against "a blizzard of litigation to bankrupt the industry by legal fees."

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Response to Recursion (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:58 AM

14. And, Dammit To Hell, Give The ATF A Director.


The agency has been deprived of a Director by the gun thugs for the last 7 years. Enough, already.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:34 AM

8. VP Joe Bidden said at a press conference .....

"Out of several million blocked purchases, there have been something like a hundred prosecutions."

.... that the federal government does not have the time or the resources to go after those people.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:35 AM

9. Which is why we need 4 (or 10) times as many ATF agents as we have

And we need to remove the stupid limits the GOP put on what they can and can't do.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:55 AM

12. Not sure it needs to be only ATF agents .......

If it's a federal crime being committed, why doesn't or can't the FBI pursue these cases? To answer my own question, I have heard that the FBI doesn't want to "lower itself" to working on petty gun crimes. Also that there are not enough federal prosecutors to handle all the potential cases. This sorta tells me that there is an overall prioritization problem, not necessarily a lack of ATF manpower.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:24 AM

4. Everytime a gun nut asshole mentions laws that "aren't being enforced" ask them why

we don't have a sitting head of the ATF. We all know why: they themselves have prevented it by rigging the legislation.

The main force and thrust of the gun lobby for the last 20 years has been to prevent enforcement of the laws by stifling and handcuffing every agency meant to enforce them. The restrictions on what ATF agents can "investigate" when they look into gun dealer trafficking are a laughable structure of Byzantine nonsense, all produced directly by the gun lobby and inserted into state and federal legislation. Meanwhile, the gun dealers smile and smile and feed guns into the illicit market, as everyone well knows, since the agencies are toothless - stripped of the required number of agents and stifled at every turn.

Gun nuts are liars. It's as simple as that. They scream for enforcement of existing laws while making enforcement impossible. They demand research results when they themselves have their Congressional and legislative flunkies preventing funding for any possible research, and threatening any academic institution that might support such research.

As soon as they demand enforcement of existing laws, they are lying. Clear the bottle neck, hire 3,000 ATF and state level firearms enforcement agents, eliminate the restrictions on investigations of trafficking, which is rampant among the oh-so-respected "responsible" gun owners and dealers, as they feed guns on to our streets, then laugh that our local gun laws don't seem to be effective. They are murderers and criminals, even if they're not the ones pulling the trigger.

Slap a RICO charge and 60 years in a federal prison on a few of these Indiana gun dealers, and I guarantee you the pipeline of guns into the Chicago gangs will dry up on the double quick. They're fucking killing us.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:26 AM

5. Thank you! n/t

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:41 AM

10. The ATF needs it's budget and staff quadrupled. nt

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:18 AM

16. This is a scary commentary on leadership.

 

The inability to act when the head of the organization is absent?

What about all the senior management and field management? If they're that inept and spineless to act with existing laws (without the BIG HEAD), then the organization is inept and should be rebuilt from the bottom up. Like a bunch of cops hanging out in a donut shop.

If the IRS lacked a BIG HEAD would the US government stop collecting taxes? Would the EPA stop enforcement of environmental laws? Would the FBI stop posting pictures at the post office? I find it hard to believe that the ATF lacks a plan of secession or alternate chain of command or is the organization that totally incompetent?

Many states have state laws that mirror federal laws, who dropped the ball at that level?

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:06 PM

25. It goes further back. The laws were written to be difficult to enforce.

Yes. That's what I said. Think about it. Every single gun law had to pass in a bipartisan fashion, which means proving someone violated those laws is difficult in almost all cases. Most hinge on intent and prior knowledge. Very difficult to prove. Some have been tightened up over the last decade or so, but now the situation you're talking about has come to pass.

One thing I can say for sure - inspection/investigation on the civil side needs more manpower. That's what ensures FFLs stay honest. If they're not, then a good lead is provided to LE. ATF needs to be allowed to have more undercover ops at gun shows. Private sales at gun shows must be banned. Private sales should be banned across the board, really.

Finally, explosives training for compliance is crap. Total crap. Much more needs to be done in that area to keep the public safe.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)


Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:42 AM

11. Did anyone on the panel call him on that a la Jon Stewart?

Where the reason that those laws weren't being enforced was, yes you guessed it, NRA activism.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:05 AM

15. Try Googling NRA & gun laws?

 

They must have 1-800 number.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:06 PM

19. He is such a flaming piece of shit.

Why can't he just go away?

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:20 PM

20. I haven't found anything definitive that there are 9000 gun laws.

The NRA probably counts each chapter, section, subsection, definition as a separate law.

According to the Brookings Institute article they believe there are fewer than 300 major statewide laws for gun control. That might be state and federal combined. Many of those local governments are forbidden by state law to enact their own gun control laws. I don't believe they include any laws that involve when and how for hunting.

40 states as of 2008 preempt all or most local gun control laws.

The original 20,000 was thrown around as a figure in 1965.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:31 PM

21. They are probabally talking about every city, state, and federal law in the country

They are being intentionally vague. I remember back when the assault weapons ban was being debated in the 90s the GOP were saying there are "already 50,000 gun laws on the books". They just counted every possible law in every possible municipality in the country. There are probably 30,000 jaywalking laws in the country too.

RW nonsense. I would ask them to give some examples of these laws that are not being enforced.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:18 PM

27. As the resource I used pointed out

many of those laws are not enforceable because the state has nullified them at the local level.

They probably count all of the hunting laws too because they involve the use of firearms.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:47 PM

23. Send LaPierre and the NRA a letter requesting a a list of those 9000 laws....

....and why they feel they're not being enforced.

Put the ball back in their court.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:14 PM

26. First, look up the Tiahart Amendments

http://protectpolice.org/facts
http://www.businessinsider.com/jon-stewart-nra-atf-gun-control-obama-2013-1

In short, they were amendments written and approved by the NRA to stop gun laws from being enforced.

Wayne LaPierre is a lying sack of Jabba excrement.

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:57 PM

29. we can use this....NRA says gun violence is because police are not doing their jobs

that will go over well in NRA-land

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Response to global1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:01 PM

30. And the NRA opposed every single one of those

"9000" gun laws.

Why doesn't Lil' fucking Wayne ever admit that?

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