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Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:02 AM

What do the "bad guys" in Britain and Japan do without guns?

Any insights into that?

82 replies, 4740 views

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Reply What do the "bad guys" in Britain and Japan do without guns? (Original post)
moondust Jan 2013 OP
bench scientist Jan 2013 #1
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #8
EOTE Jan 2013 #10
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #11
EOTE Jan 2013 #12
JDPriestly Jan 2013 #52
rustydog Jan 2013 #24
guardian Jan 2013 #42
EOTE Jan 2013 #80
guardian Jan 2013 #81
EOTE Jan 2013 #82
bench scientist Jan 2013 #71
CreekDog Jan 2013 #77
bench scientist Jan 2013 #79
loli phabay Jan 2013 #2
Kingofalldems Jan 2013 #7
hack89 Jan 2013 #17
loli phabay Jan 2013 #23
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #40
loli phabay Jan 2013 #41
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #44
loli phabay Jan 2013 #46
Posteritatis Jan 2013 #68
Pyrzqxgl Jan 2013 #78
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #3
Squinch Jan 2013 #26
guardian Jan 2013 #43
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #45
Squinch Jan 2013 #47
Bake Jan 2013 #61
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #4
malaise Jan 2013 #6
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #37
DanTex Jan 2013 #5
slackmaster Jan 2013 #9
edbermac Jan 2013 #13
dairydog91 Jan 2013 #14
Robb Jan 2013 #18
a la izquierda Jan 2013 #50
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #62
dairydog91 Jan 2013 #70
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #15
Robb Jan 2013 #19
formercia Jan 2013 #22
Bucky Jan 2013 #76
Squinch Jan 2013 #28
Recursion Jan 2013 #39
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #48
loli phabay Jan 2013 #51
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #74
Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #16
dmallind Jan 2013 #20
Squinch Jan 2013 #29
formercia Jan 2013 #21
Scurrilous Jan 2013 #25
PLARS1999 Jan 2013 #27
Squinch Jan 2013 #30
PLARS1999 Jan 2013 #34
Squinch Jan 2013 #35
PLARS1999 Jan 2013 #36
loli phabay Jan 2013 #31
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #66
pampango Jan 2013 #32
oldhippie Jan 2013 #64
Recursion Jan 2013 #33
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #38
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #49
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #53
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #59
Kolesar Jan 2013 #55
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #57
Kolesar Jan 2013 #58
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #60
Kolesar Jan 2013 #65
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #67
cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #54
Kolesar Jan 2013 #56
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #63
loose wheel Jan 2013 #69
JI7 Jan 2013 #72
kudzu22 Jan 2013 #73
Bucky Jan 2013 #75

Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:10 AM

1. umm, not kill their fellow citizens in record numbers? n/t

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Response to bench scientist (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:32 PM

8. record numbers?really?

got a link to back up that 2011/2012 we killed in record numbers?

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:37 PM

10. The U.S. ALWAYS sets the records for firearm deaths in the developed world.

It's been that way for many decades. That's one metric that I don't think we should strive for, don't you agree?

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Response to EOTE (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:38 PM

11. that wasn't the question

in OUR history...are we killing in record numbers in 2011/2012?

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:40 PM

12. Actually it WAS the question.

The post you responded to asked the (perhaps rhetorical) question "Perhaps not kill our citizens in record numbers?" You notice they didn't specify which record, so it definitely rings true. Every year, the U.S. sets the record for gun deaths in developed countries. Why the fuck would we compare modern society to how things were decades ago? Nearly every country in the world is experiencing a downward trend in gun violence over the past few decades, but the U.S. is pathetically lagging behind.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:39 PM

52. It isn't a matter of comparing how violent our recent history to how violent our past history is.

It's a matter of comparing the incidence of violent gun use in our society to the incidence of violent gun use in other societies. How does the incidence of gun violence in our society in which gun laws are lax compare with the incidence of gun violence in societies in which gun regulations severely limit access to guns.

I hope that the topic is clearer now.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:10 PM

24. American gun deaths beat every other civilized nation.

Every year. USA, USA, USA! American Exceptiionalism! Go Team.

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Response to rustydog (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:11 PM

42. So which nations

 

do you consider to be uncivilized?

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Response to guardian (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:13 AM

80. There's a clear line between the first world and the rest of the world.

And it's not a liberal trait to think that we should be comparing our level of gun violence to that of Somalia's.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/first_world.htm

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Response to EOTE (Reply #80)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:49 PM

81. So the

 

non-first world countries (i.e., poor countries) are "uncivilized"?

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Response to guardian (Reply #81)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:04 PM

82. Sure, if that's the word you'd like to use.

Are you going to take away my liberal credentials because I think things like lack of taxes and government make a country uncivilized?

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:30 PM

77. they do less murdering of people than in the United States

Murder rates:

USA 4.8
United Kingdom 1.2
Japan 0.4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate

1) okay, you asked for a link
2) i gave you one
3) now you will find fault with the numbers, even though they are so markedly higher here, that you will dismiss them all

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:18 PM

79. aw, yea creekdog

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:47 AM

2. dont know about japan but bad guys in the uk get guns too easily

 

Plus there is a huge knife culture there as well.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:31 PM

7. Huge knife culture?

So you say. Where is the evidence of this 'huge knife culture'?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #7)


Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:08 PM

23. seriuosly do a search theres been campaigns to get knifes of the streets

 

Knife amnestys and education. Knifes have been a blight on many of the schemes.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:05 PM

40. And yet, as the figures in #4 show, knives kill slightly more in the USA

(with size of population taken into account) than in England and Wales (Scotland and Northern Ireland's figures are separate).

The difference is that Britain looks at the numbers killed by knife and says "that's too much"; the USA looks at roughly the same number and thinks "it's nothing compared to the murders by gun - it's a far smaller problem".

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:09 PM

41. still does not mean there is not a knife culture in the schemes

 

And yes its an issue that is trying to be tackled with changes in the law and education but the original premise still stands that knifes are prevalent within the yob culture.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:18 PM

44. But is it any smaller than the American knife culture?

It doesn't kill any more people than the American knife culture, we know that much.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:24 PM

46. depends on where you live. on some schemes stabbings are everyday

 

And everybody in the young team or tong is carrying a chib of some sort. Hence the money spent by the polis on stab vests. I think the difference is in the Us knifes are more a weapon of opportunity and in the UK more of a weapon of choice.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:15 PM

68. Hysterical tabloids, stuff like that.

Enough people handwring about something and they become convinced it's an apocalyptic epidemic. Kind of like a more mundane equivalent of how people in the US spent years pantswettingly afraid of terrorists behind everything.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:35 PM

78. Not to mention bows & arrows in Sherwood Forest.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:00 AM

3. They use knives and clubs.

Probably not the answer you were hoping for.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:16 PM

26. I'd rather look at a knife than down the barrel of a gun.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:15 PM

43. Really?

 

Look at the following link and tell me that. BTW I intentionally changed the link from "www" to "xxx" so the image wouldn't show automatically. It is pretty graphic for the squeamish.

xxx.chemicalbiological.net/graphic%20knife%20wound.jpg

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Response to guardian (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:21 PM

45. Guns are chosen by people intending to kill

because they are deadlier. I'd certainly say 'really'. I think most people would.

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Response to guardian (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:27 PM

47. Yes, really. And since it looks as if your link is to some photo of a wound, I don't really

feel the need to look at it.

Are you seriously going to quibble about the fact that guns are more deadly than knives, and base your argument on gross photos?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:30 PM

61. If an attacker has a knife, then I want a gun.

There. That's simple.

Bake

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:54 AM

4. Figures for 3 years of England & Wales homicides

Sharp instrument 698
Hitting, kicking, etc. 401
Blunt instrument 167
Strangulation/asphyxiation 158
Shooting 140
Other 320
Total 1,884

(note the years for recording crime don't run from Jan-Dec, for some reason. So "combined data for 2008/09 to 2010/11" means 3 years, starting 2008, 2009 and 2010)

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary

These can be compared with the US data, available for 2008 here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/05/us-homicide-rates
The US had a homicide by sharp instrument rate of 0.67 per 100,000 per year; England and Wales, roughly, 0.43 (about 55 million population). Hitting etc. - USA: 0.30; E&W: 0.25. So those 2 categories are roughly equal. Shooting: USA: 3.33; E&W: 0.09.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:18 AM

6. But but but

Doesn't American exceptionalism cover everything???

Excellent data.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:55 PM

37. A point that CANNOT be over-emphasized

According to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, the homicide rate for the United States was 4.8 per 100,000 population. That's for homicides of all types -- firearm, stabbing, etc. The homicide rate for the United Kingdom was 1.2 per 100,000 population. Our homicide rates are just about four times what they are in the UK.

So when some gun-lover tries to make the argument, "If you take guns away, people will just kill each other with knives or clubs" you can respond that it's simply not true. No western democracy has a higher homicide rate than the United States, so clearly people are NOT just killing each other with other weapons.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:15 AM

5. They commit far fewer homicides.

As others have pointed out, they use knives and clubs instead, and since guns are far more deadly than knives or clubs, the end result is thousands of innocent lives spared every year.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:34 PM

9. Britons use knives, fists, beer glasses, and blunt objects. Japan doesn't have much violent crime.

 

They use mostly sarcasm.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:45 PM

13. The Japanese use swords.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:47 PM

14. What drunks did in the US when booze was banned.

Buy it through a black market. The larger the black market demand, the more suppliers jump into the market. Both GB and Japan have the advantage of being island nations which cuts down on the ease of supplying the black market (Continental europe has more of a black-market weapons problem because the guns need only be driven from Eastern bloc nations into Western Europe). Countries that had large civilian stockpiles before they instituted major registration/bans also have huge stockpiles of unregistered guns which remain usable and sellable for decades (For example, in regards to the UK and Germany, the Small Arms Survey estimates that only 20-25% of guns that should have been registered actually were registered).

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Response to dairydog91 (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:55 PM

18. Island nations have no black market?

Are you writing to us from your pre-boats time machine??

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Response to Robb (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:36 PM

50. Thank you, I just spewed coffee all over my desk.

I appreciate the mid-afternoon hysterics.

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Response to Robb (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:46 PM

62. of course! there is not a single leaf of ganja in jamaica, for instance.

also, mexico is technically an island, and virtually crime free!

brush up on your geography, sir!

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Response to Robb (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:46 PM

70. Of course they have black markets.

You can ship things into an island nation by sea. But that either means you come in through a port, and risk getting caught there, or you bring boats up to the coast to drop things off there, and risk getting busted by the coast guard. Whereas if you're bringing stuff from Eastern Europe into Western Europe by truck, in modern Europe it's pretty much a question of loading up and driving west, with little worry of getting busted.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:48 PM

15. Japanese "bad guys" have plenty of guns

I expect British ones do, too.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:57 PM

19. They must be lousy shots then.

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Response to Robb (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:08 PM

22. Yakuza use firearms as a last resort

They are considered to be bad form.

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Response to formercia (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:24 PM

76. So, everybody was kung fu fighting instead?

Cause those cats were fast as lightning.

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Response to Robb (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:19 PM

28. LOL! So true, it's funny!

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Response to Robb (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:58 PM

39. They don't use them much. Nor in Britain

Why that is would be a very interesting question to look at.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:30 PM

48. +1

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:38 PM

51. id say a large part is cultural and another is the guns tend to be held

 

By quatermasters of the criminal gangs and only used or rented out for certain needs.

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Response to Robb (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:19 PM

74. The question was if they had guns

They do, plenty. Probably as many, per Yakuza, as organized crime does here.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:04 PM

20. Wound each other at approximately twice the US rate, in the UK at least.

Can't seem to find compatable breakdowns on whether wounds are minor bruising or permanent torturous maiming. It's probably safe to assume both nations run the gamut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_violence#United_Kingdom

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Response to dmallind (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:20 PM

29. But kill each other a whole lot less.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:04 PM

21. There are always firearms to be had, regardless of the laws

I've been to countries where civilian weapons were supposedly not allowed, but a few discreet inquiries could get you what you needed. Usually, ex War souvenirs, stolen from the local Military or Police. If you have the Money, the guns will follow. Wherever there has been armed Combat, there are stockpiles stashed away.

Fix the fucked-up Society and people won't feel that they need a gun, for whatever reason.

Making Laws are just for feeling good, like Mother's little Helpers, they cover the symptom but fail to cure the problem.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:13 PM

25. As for Britain, I think you can rule out biting. n/t

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:17 PM

27. Knives, swords, axes.

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Response to PLARS1999 (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:20 PM

30. How bad are things when you carry a gun with bullets in it?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:33 PM

34. If you don't trust your dealer, don't buy from him.

I pay alot of money to live where I don't have to worry about either.

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Response to PLARS1999 (Reply #34)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:36 PM

35. Huh?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:47 PM

36. Hooligans.

They cause trouble on every continent. Sticks with nails in the UK, AKs in LA, gang violence is everywhere. I moved away from all of it. I can't get cable but I can leave my keys in my car and it will still be there tomorrow.

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Response to PLARS1999 (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:24 PM

31. I remember for a time it was double bladed Stanley knifes

 

They made a vicious wound that scarred badly. Then it was giving people the chesire smile. A lot of bladed weapon violence goes on.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:55 PM

66. I'm fairly confident that I have a much better chance of outrunning a bladed weapon

I'm fairly confident that I have a much better chance of outrunning a bladed weapon than I do a speeding bullet. But your mileage may vary... :shrug

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Response to PLARS1999 (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:25 PM

32. Call Bush. Weapons of mass destruction.

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Response to PLARS1999 (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:54 PM

64. Axes were preferred weapons in medieval times ......

 

I learned somewhere in my combat training that you were more likely to die from a knife wound (bleed out) than from a gunshot wound. I also saw where ER docs would rather treat a gunshot wound than a knife wound. Knifes can inflict more damage.

Main disadvantage of a blade is that you have to get close.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:25 PM

33. Who says the bad guys don't have guns there? (nt)

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:57 PM

38. Even the Yakuza won't mess around with guns in Japan.

Gun laws are so strict in Japan that Yakuza mob bosses and most of their underlings stay the fuck away from them.

Seriously. Gun crime is very rare in Japan.

The culture around weapons is very different in Japan.

Here in the U.S., we're all raised having been taught about the American Revolution, the British military's attempt to disarm people, the Second Amendment, that sort of thing.

Japanese history has centuries of regular people being terrorized by samurai, who pretty much did what they wanted, including randomly chopping peoples' heads off with their katanas when they got pissed off. That led to centuries of people struggling to restrain and disarm the samurai, which led today to Japan's very strict weapons laws.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:33 PM

49. Yakuza have guns, & traffic in guns.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #49)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:57 PM

53. Only a small subset.

Most of them avoid guns - they know damned well if they're caught with a gun, they're going to prison.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:25 PM

59. not really the case.

 

Currently, the yakuza comprises roughly 79,000 people, divided among 22 groups.

Although referred to by authorities as "anti-social forces," it's actually a semilegal entity with offices, business cards, and fan magazines.

The yakuza groups make their money through a combination of legal businesses -- like dispatching day laborers -- and illegal activities such as extortion, racketeering, and financial fraud. The largest yakuza group, the Kobe-based Yamaguchi-gumi, has 39,000 members. The Inagawa-kai, the group most closely tied to former Justice Minister Tanaka, has 10,000 members and is based in Tokyo. Its offices are across from the Ritz-Carlton.

In 2007, two years before it came to power, the DPJ received the coveted endorsement of the Yamaguchi-gumi and the Inagawa-kai. It was a relationship that worked out well, until recently. However bizarre it may sound, there's nothing particularly remarkable about an organized crime group supporting a political party in Japan.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/12/13/the_yakuza_lobby?page=0,1


Yakuza have long had a symbiotic relationship with Japanese politics and there is a tacit deal: yakuza can have weapons, can even use them for insider yakuza business, can traffic them outside japan -- but not to ordinary japanese or petty street criminals.

if the government wanted to catch yakuza with weapons they could just go to their headquarters, which are well-known. Everybody knows where the yakuza are & who they are.

It's a different culture.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #49)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:04 PM

55. Some documentation would be a nice thing

I have heard that those gangsters avoid having guns because the penalties are way stiff.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:14 PM

58. Wow, seven

Illegal guns, mostly handguns, were used to kill seven people and injure 11 others that year. The vast majority of the incidents were related to yakuza or other gangs.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/29/reference/in-japan-gun-control-is-the-norm-and-discipline-is-rigid/#.UQmMkh1lGSo

Those books you cited say that Yakuza traffics in guns, but does not say that they commonly use them to kill people.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:27 PM

60. Because they *don't* commonly use them to kill people. But they have them, they traffic them

 

internationally & smuggle them into japan, and the government turns a blind eye.

This is the nature of the complicity between the japanese state and the yakuza.

Which is why people who don't know anything about japan get it wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2284913

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:54 PM

65. Is it the smell of cordite that brings the snot out from you?

"..people who don't know anything about japan get it wrong. "

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:13 PM

67. what? the fact is, unless they've experienced it, americans tend to assume the yakuza operate

 

similarly to the mafia and have an analogous place in japanese society.

they also view things like gun laws through an american lens, and assume that the reason yakuza kill few people is the law.

no, even before the recent anti-yakuza gun laws were put in place, yakuza killed relatively few people.

it's true, if you don't know anything about japan but what you read in the western press, you get it wrong.

which is true for other countries too. and vice versa.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:04 PM

54. They victimize the weak just like all bad guys do.

Contrary to popular belief, a lack of guns does not equal a lack of bad guys.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:07 PM

56. Impulsive and unwise people don't kill others in commenserate numbers, though

Which is why we need to get handguns away from male youths.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:54 PM

63. Even gangsters live in fear of Japanís gun laws by Jake Adelstein

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:46 PM

69. Prey upon the weak.

 

There was a young man murdered by a mob using swords on Lupus Street in London just this week.

Bad people do bad things. We won't ever be able to create a society where that is not true. Not without repression that would make North Korea balk, and that truly is saying something.

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:30 PM

72. Swords ?

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Response to moondust (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:39 PM

73. Ever think that maybe Britain and Japan lock up their crazy people?

Whereas we let them roam free and sometimes run for office.

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Response to kudzu22 (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:23 PM

75. We do too, but we use prisons instead of those mamby-pampy mental treatment centers

They also, apparently, don't egg on their mentally and emotionally unstable people with constant fear mongering and paranoia over right wing radio stations.

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