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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:20 PM

A law abiding gun owner was responsible for Newtown.

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:58 AM - Edit history (2)

Re: Lawrence speaking to Gun Lobbyist Wayne LaPierre's pro-gun industry testimony tomorrow.

His pre-written by the gun industry script will defend law abiding gun owners.

The mother of the killer was a law abiding gun owner that made the massacre possible.

(This was Lawrence's narrative)

113 replies, 5786 views

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Arrow 113 replies Author Time Post
Reply A law abiding gun owner was responsible for Newtown. (Original post)
onehandle Jan 2013 OP
Deep13 Jan 2013 #1
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #2
elleng Jan 2013 #4
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #13
Union Scribe Jan 2013 #19
otohara Jan 2013 #87
elleng Jan 2013 #3
Cha Jan 2013 #7
ThoughtCriminal Jan 2013 #5
iiibbb Jan 2013 #15
Robb Jan 2013 #48
B2G Jan 2013 #53
Robb Jan 2013 #55
B2G Jan 2013 #57
Robb Jan 2013 #59
B2G Jan 2013 #60
B2G Jan 2013 #62
HockeyMom Jan 2013 #78
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #6
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #9
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #11
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #16
Skittles Jan 2013 #37
hack89 Jan 2013 #75
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #91
hack89 Jan 2013 #93
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #94
hack89 Jan 2013 #96
patrice Jan 2013 #8
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #12
patrice Jan 2013 #33
iiibbb Jan 2013 #10
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #14
iiibbb Jan 2013 #17
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #22
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #25
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #29
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #43
Skittles Jan 2013 #38
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #44
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #23
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #18
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #20
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #27
Skittles Jan 2013 #39
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #45
Zoeisright Jan 2013 #24
Skip Intro Jan 2013 #21
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #26
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #28
Union Scribe Jan 2013 #31
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #46
hack89 Jan 2013 #56
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #90
B2G Jan 2013 #58
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #32
SWTORFanatic Jan 2013 #51
mike_c Jan 2013 #82
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #30
slackmaster Jan 2013 #34
Demo_Chris Jan 2013 #35
CANDO Jan 2013 #88
PrezHillary2016 Jan 2013 #36
FunkyLeprechaun Jan 2013 #40
cali Jan 2013 #42
cali Jan 2013 #41
cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #47
actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #49
lynne Jan 2013 #50
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #52
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #54
jmg257 Jan 2013 #61
B2G Jan 2013 #63
jmg257 Jan 2013 #64
B2G Jan 2013 #65
jmg257 Jan 2013 #67
B2G Jan 2013 #69
jmg257 Jan 2013 #72
B2G Jan 2013 #74
jmg257 Jan 2013 #79
actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #70
jmg257 Jan 2013 #71
RZM Jan 2013 #66
jmg257 Jan 2013 #68
RZM Jan 2013 #73
jmg257 Jan 2013 #80
forthemiddle Jan 2013 #95
jmg257 Jan 2013 #97
LibDemAlways Jan 2013 #85
jmg257 Jan 2013 #89
Rider3 Jan 2013 #76
B2G Jan 2013 #77
Rider3 Jan 2013 #81
jmg257 Jan 2013 #83
B2G Jan 2013 #84
jmg257 Jan 2013 #86
Robb Jan 2013 #92
B2G Jan 2013 #98
jmg257 Jan 2013 #99
B2G Jan 2013 #100
jmg257 Jan 2013 #101
B2G Jan 2013 #102
jmg257 Jan 2013 #105
Robb Jan 2013 #103
B2G Jan 2013 #104
Robb Jan 2013 #106
B2G Jan 2013 #107
Robb Jan 2013 #108
B2G Jan 2013 #109
Robb Jan 2013 #111
B2G Jan 2013 #113
jmg257 Jan 2013 #112
no_hypocrisy Jan 2013 #110

Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:26 PM

1. Sorry, no.

Not unless every iPod user is guilty of every suicide death at Foxconn.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:33 PM

2. No

One person is responsible and he killed himself

Some people really go off the deep end.

Do we need to have a good discussion to help this never happen again, YES

Do we need to sit here and just call each other names, NO

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:37 PM

4. His mother should not have had guns in the house with him.

That was Lawrence's point.

No need for name calling; just all the facts.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:04 AM

13. +1000

Millions of people own guns and never hurt another person. There is room for a ton of improvement in the laws but this type of rhetoric is way over the top.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:11 AM

19. Excellent post.

Things like the OP only help make national dialogue more difficult. Extremism only entrenches people.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:51 AM

87. I Blame His Mother

troubled boy & guns are a bad bad idea.

WTF was she thinking?

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:35 PM

3. He went on to say,

Newtown shooter's mother was a 'law-abiding gun owner.'

Clearly, such law needs modification.

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Response to elleng (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:51 PM

7. I'm thinking Nancy Lanza would have

wished something was different so she didn't have all those guns in the house with her son.. who was clearly a very troubled young man.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:38 PM

5. Almost all, if not all of theses mass shootings

have been committed by people who were "Law Abiding" right up until the first gun shot.

This guy's ""Law Abiding" mother thought that having killing machines in house would protect her. Stupid, fatal, error.




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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:05 AM

15. every man a potential rapist, and law abiding until

 

they commit the first

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:41 AM

48. Not every person is a potential mass shooter. Only gun owners.

Turns out people who don't own guns have a perfect record of avoiding shooting sprees.

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Response to Robb (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:51 AM

53. Wrong. They take them from gun owners

Lanza didn't own a gun legally. Harris & Deibold didn't come by their guns legally. Anyone under the age required to possess a firearm didn't come by their guns legally. How many gang bangers own legal guns?

Major fail.

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Response to B2G (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:04 AM

55. Nine-tents of the law, buddy.

Those of us without guns continue our 100% winning streak of not shooting anybody. Your camp's record pales in comparison.

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Response to Robb (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:09 AM

57. Bullshit. You stated that gun owners were responsible

for the killings.

The vast majority were not legal gun owners. They TOOK them from legal owners or obtained them illegally.

Major fail.

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Response to B2G (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:19 AM

59. I didn't say that. But I could, and be right.

Only 27% of people convicted of gun crimes had their guns illegally. The majority were law-abiding (at least in terms of their gun ownership).

You trust your NRA newsletter a bit too much. Being wrong clearly isn't good for your blood pressure, either.

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Response to Robb (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:24 AM

60. My blood pressure is just fine,

I don't belong to the NRA and I would love to see the source you used to get to your 27% figure.

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Response to B2G (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:23 AM

78. If you are the legal gun owner,

then your FAMILY MEMBERS should not have access to YOUR guns. I include in that your SPOUSE and your CHILDREN, regardless of their age. They should need a BACKGROUND CHECK ALSO if they are to have access to any gun in the household.

Gifts of guns should also not be allowed either unless the receipent undergoes their own background check. If this means registration of the gun, so be it, in order to keep track of that gun.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:46 PM

6. I agree. We live in a gun culture, and all of its enablers are complicit in these senseless deaths.

I see no difference between a private citizen stockpiling guns and a country stockpiling really big guns. If you feel like you need to have guns around, you must think you're in a war and that everyone you see is a potential enemy.

If this wasn't the case, why would a whopping 1,743 people have been shot to death in the U.S. since Sandy Hook? That's today's tally. All of these shooting deaths in a month-and-a-half.

I'm sure the gungeoneers will flame me for this, but I don't care. You keep deadly firepower around, you're asking for trouble. And you must want trouble. End of story.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:59 PM

9. just as much as

illegal drugs
Alcohol
prescription drugs
Lack of quality mental health

And no I do not think I am in a war

I have a few weapons for target shooting locked in my gun safe

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:02 AM

11. We've had all of those things you just listed in our society for a very long time.

They do not lead to shooting deaths unless someone also has a gun.

Enjoy your safely locked away guns and your target shooting. Enjoy them far away from me. Thanks.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:07 AM

16. I will thank you, been killing paper squares for 30 years

and if you also got rid of the other factors I think it would make the same impact. There is always more than 1 item that ends up causing this to happen.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:01 AM

37. don't try to reason with them

waste of fucking time

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:14 AM

75. We also have a thriving drug and alcohol culture

that kills, directly and indirectly, just as many people.

I feel no need to flame you - invincible ignorance is flameproof anyway. We don't want trouble - we know that gun deaths are at a historic low and steadily declining. We just want to be left alone.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:11 PM

91. There's no need to resort to insults, Hack89.

The next time someone takes out an entire first grade class with a bottle of Jack Daniels, I'll rush to your side.

In the meantime, there have been 1200+ shooting deaths in the U.S. since December 14th.

Just a few minutes ago, there was a spree shooting in an office complex in Phoenix.

YOU want to be left alone? What about the rest of us?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #91)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:18 PM

93. So spreading the deaths out make them more acceptable?

mass shootings are low on the list of things that kill first graders.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #93)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:26 PM

94. Don't deliberately miss my point; it's unbecoming and makes you look silly.

By the way, they have alcohol and drugs in England, Australia, and Japan too. Also movies and video games. You know what they don't have? Gun violence.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #94)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:42 PM

96. So lets focus on the real "cultures"

how about the "criminal culture" or "drug gang" culture? Why not focus on specific groups that are actually doing the killing?

You want to lump everyone who touches a gun into a "culture" which you define as violent, depraved, and indifferent to the deaths of others. If you think that is actually going to work, then knock yourself out.

There are three groups responsible for gun deaths in America.

The biggest is suicides. The second is violent criminals. Then we have a tiny group of mentally ill mass killers.

Why not address each one separately? Mental health coverage to reduce suicides. A harsh crackdown on felons using guns and sources of illegal guns. And for mass killers, besides mental health care some system for identify potentially violent people.

That would work, wouldn't it?

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:58 PM

8. It's hard to get people to accept anything but the most obvious & direct connections between

things and even then they'll debate what responsibility means.

People don't accept anything but the most tenuous responsibility for many/most problems. The buck gets passed forever.

This, of course, is childish and wrong, especially since so much of what is indirectly related to what is going badly could be stuff that is more easily changed and that change powerful in its effect especially if it is small relatively easily executed change carried out by lots of people.

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Response to patrice (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:03 AM

12. agreed to a point

If change means banning hand guards on a rifle, or banning rifles or pistols for looks, I think that is wrong.

If you are into banning weapons at least ban by the function of the weapon and not what looks scary.

If change means looking at what the problem is, mainly handguns, and trying to enforce sensible restrictions, I am all for it.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:36 AM

33. I want to respect gun owners' rights as much as possible. For that to happen, they need to

respect my and other people's rights too. Assault weapons rank high in my concerns about how gun-ownership becomes a privilege instead of a right. Sandy Hook and other incidents are examples of how something that seems to be a reasonable right to some, actually morphs into the privilege of posing an increased level of threat way beyond what would be expected were people, including miscreants like Adam Lanza, to manifest their gun-ownership rights in non-assault-weapons.

There's another level of concern about how assault weapons constitute a privilege instead of a right and that is the assumption that were we collectively through our government to decide to ban assault weapons, some people are claiming and very mistakenly so the "right" to kill in order to retain ownership of assault weapons. The weapons have become an end in and of themselves and people assume that their ownership of them gives them the privilege of deciding if, when, and how our collectively selected government should be deposed WITHOUT ASKING THE REST OF US WHETHER WE AGREE WITH THEIR ACTIONS in that matter or not. That's the very essence of privilege were they to succeed in that effort or not the consequences to the rest of us are stuff we would be given no choice in.

I can quote you chapter and verse everything that is wrong with our politics and hence with our government, but for all of its wrongs, it is much more OURS than is the summary decision by a bunch of assault-weapons owners that the time has come to "water the tree" of their own fascism actually, not liberty at all since they do not consult the rest of us in the matter, with the blood of _____________, preferably not themselves, which means, then, whoever gets in the way of their violent expression of "free speech", whether any of the rest of us agree with their "revolution" or not. THAT's, again, a privilege, not a right.

None of which mentions the effects upon public servants, such as police and safety officers, charged with the responsibility to respond to criminals armed with assault weapons and also soldiers, were there to be a "revolution" of gun owners, soldiers who, once again, would not be consulted in the matter of the consequences of other people's actions, partly just because they are soldiers under the UCMJ and partly also because people would be engaging in behaviors that have effects upon soldiers with no regard to the rights of those soldiers whatsoever.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:00 AM

10. Why do gun sales spike when gun controllers speak

 

Because of gun control in NY, I am selling 3 in order to comply, which I will with 3. That's 3 more in circulation because of gun control.

For every one of these kooks (who are always on someone's radar) There are millions who will live their whole life harming no one.

Statements like the OP have more blood on their hands by expanding divides and lending credence to the rhetoric of the NRA. You are far more complicit in the proliferation of guns and the stagnation of effective measures to curb gun violence than I am or millions like me.

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:05 AM

14. It's true; gun control in one state doesn't mean shit.

When we have true gun control, like other developed nations, the problem will be largely solved.

Then your 3 precious guns won't be a problem anymore.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)


Response to iiibbb (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:13 AM

22. Oh the horror

I just realized, one of my weapons has a attached bayonet

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:14 AM

25. Whatever.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:19 AM

29. must ban it

bayonet = sharp pointy thing designed to kill

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:24 AM

43. Agreed. Ban it. Get yourself a big stick and tie a butter knife to the end of it.

You're good to go.

Honestly, you sound like a child.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:02 AM

38. this is someone who is proud of slaughtering DUCKS

give it up, Chorophyll

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Response to Skittles (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:25 AM

44. Yeah. I don't know why I'm bothering.

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:13 AM

23. I don't own a gun. I never have. I never will.

I am not the problem. If everyone was like me, there would be no problem at all.

You could always destroy those guns instead of sell them, couldn't you? You don't have to put them back into circulation.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:09 AM

18. well all you have to do

is repeal that pesky amendment to the constitution. That should not be to hard should it?

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:11 AM

20. Amendments have been repealed before. That pesky one doesn't make a lot of sense today.

Unless you've got a well-regulated militia in your garage, preparing to fight off the British and the Indians.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:15 AM

27. I wish you luck

I will just go by what the current court has ruled. If you can get the votes and the number of states, more power to you.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:03 AM

39. "more power to you"?

you'd wet your fucking pants

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Response to Skittles (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:25 AM

45. I think he already has. nt

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:14 AM

24. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!!

You keep on living in unicorn fairy land there.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:12 AM

21. No. No more than law abiding car-owners are responsible for DUI deaths.


Please, can we have some sanity!

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:15 AM

26. For the 9 millionth time:

False equivalency. A car is a vehicle. A gun is a weapon. Talk about the issue at hand.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:18 AM

28. and they can both

kill if used improperly. A firearm has more than one purpose. I guess Olympic target shooters and skeet shooters are just murderers in waiting.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:21 AM

31. Wrong.

The analogy isn't about the difference between a car and a gun. It's about an item owned by an individual that can be lethal to others, and the ridiculousness of saying that your item killing someone makes me guilty if I own a similar item.

I think you're just vigorously trying to separate yourself from any group contamination while insisting on it for gun owners. You can't have it both ways.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:28 AM

46. My car is registered and insured and I have to renew my driver's license on a regular basis.

If I fuck up, all of that can (and should) be taken from me.

At the very least, the same should be applied to guns. In all 50 states.

So I'm not vigorously doing anything. What are you vigorously doing?

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:05 AM

56. You do not need a registration and insurance for a car if it does not go on public roads.

just like guns. With guns the license is called a concealed carry permit.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #56)


Response to Chorophyll (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:12 AM

58. The same DOES apply to guns

If you own a gun and you use it to commit a crime, guess what? You lose your gun, go to jail and can never own one legally again.

The twisted logic I'm seeing here would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:46 AM

51. Some of us don't drink

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:36 AM

82. every gun used to commit illegal gun violence...

...has passed through the hands of legal, responsible gun owners. Every single one. Legal gun owners create the national problem of gun violence by refusing to give up their hot-barreled pacifiers.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:20 AM

30. That's ludicrous. If you extract events outside of THE event, then

you could say a LOT of things resulted in the mass killing.

The guy himself, the weapons he had obtained THROUGH MURDER, his environment while being raised, his mental problems, and a number of other things led to the awful incident.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:39 AM

34. That's extremely stupid

 

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:44 AM

35. Good grief, hyperbole much?

 

There are close to a hundred-million gun owners in the united states. About half of them are Democrats. And they didn't do a damn thing to cause this. The one person who did, the sociopath, is dead.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:52 AM

88. Lying low on this one.

But I agree. Responsible hunter/gun owner my entire life. Extreme never recognizes itself, unfortunately.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:46 AM

36. sorry but no.

 

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:50 AM

40. I can't believe the replies in this thread

The UK has very strict gun laws and it'd take 30 years to reach the rate of gun deaths the US has had in ONE month. The entire EU collectively has a bigger population than the US and yet the gun deaths are significantly less than the US.

Stricter regulation of guns will see gun deaths decline in the US.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #40)


Response to onehandle (Original post)


Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:38 AM

47. Nnnnnnope

Nice try though.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:42 AM

49. so when will all of us law abiding gun owners...

...be charged?

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:44 AM

50. No. The person responsible killed himself.

His mental illness was the catalyst but he alone is responsible.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:46 AM

52. It's easy to be a law abiding gun owner when there are loopholes.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:56 AM

54. Wow. Talk about barking up the wrong tree.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:28 AM

61. Yep, she certainly was, as was the lack of real control, which allows unfettered access to such

weapons and their accoutrements.

Her access - and his.

The 2nd amendment is being abused in such ways as to allow mass murders to occur all the more frequently and easily, and for gun-related deaths to continue to occur all too often.

The NRA and its dupes are quite proud, as more & more asses climb on board and spend more & more money on hi-capacity firearms, just because they can.


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Response to jmg257 (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:35 AM

63. Wow, you got the LEO's full report on Sandy Hook?

Do share!

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Response to B2G (Reply #63)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:38 AM

64. Why - is there some confusion on your part as to what went down? nt

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #64)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:44 AM

65. Actually, a ton

What was his motive? Was he just crazy? Was he on any medication? What was on his hard drive? Did he leave any trail on the internet? How did he get access to the guns? Were they left laying about the house fully loaded or stored in a safe? If so, how did he gain access to them?

That's just for starters.

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Response to B2G (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:51 AM

67. Doesn't REALLY matter what HIS motive was now does it? As it pertains to this conversation?

He couldn't buy guns when he wanted, but he had very little trouble taking his Mom's assault weapon and pistols - which she legally owned - before murdering her, and then driving to an elementary school and massacring 26 kids and other adults with HIS MOM's XM-15, before shooting himself, likely with one of HIS MOM'S pistols.

Not all that tough to see how her possessing the arms, and his access to them, contributed, is it?

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #67)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:00 AM

69. Blaming the victim. Well done.

And his motive & state of mind matters tremendously if you want to get to root cause.

Which you obviously don't.

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Response to B2G (Reply #69)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:10 AM

72. Waaaaa. We weren't talking about root cause. We were talking about how his Mom's guns

were used to cause her murder and the murder of 26 others.

Here's another shocker - it is very possible that if she didn't have guns, she would still be alive - as would all those kids and other adults.

Maybe not, but very possible.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:14 AM

74. And it's just as possible

He would have obtained them illegally elsewhere.

When someone is that far gone, they will find a way to carry out their plans.

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Response to B2G (Reply #74)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:23 AM

79. Yep - but he didn't did he? He got them from her with little trouble at all.

It is very sad that his plans to obtain guns and murder all those people was so easy for him to carry out, and in such a short period of time.

And it is pathetic that you and so many others are all for making sure that nothing effective has been or will be done to prevent the next crazed killer from easily aquiring guns so HIS plans of mass murder may be carried out too.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #67)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:03 AM

70. so you dont think WHY he did it...

...is just as important as how?

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Response to actslikeacarrot (Reply #70)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:06 AM

71. Not as it relates to this thread, which deals with responsibility in how he got the guns.

And how easy it was for him to get them.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:44 AM

66. Adam Lanza basically stole his mother's guns and then shot her with them

 

While she was in bed, BTW. Then he went to the school. Sounds to me like he's the one responsible, not his mother.

Had he stolen somebody else's guns, would that person be responsible too?

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Response to RZM (Reply #66)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:58 AM

68. Hmm...but he didn't steal someone else's guns did he? So who's guns did he steal?

His mother's. What if she didn't have them??

And what if he couldn't steal then from anyone else either? But what IF he did - wouldn't their possession of the guns, and his access to them, have contributed?

He is responsible for sure - but she, along with the lack of effective control laws allowing her to possess them and him to have access to them, were also responsible.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #68)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:14 AM

73. Just not buying it

 

She was a victim of a crazed killer, same as the children. I try not to blame victims for their own murders.

I don't fault her for legally purchasing and possessing her firearms. If they were illegal, that would be a different matter. But they weren't.

It would probably be more tactful to blame legislators/gun laws/the gun lobby than Nancy Lanza. The woman obeyed the law and that's all anybody is entitled to expect of her.

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Response to RZM (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:26 AM

80. Maybe you should...she was murdered with HER OWN GUNS.

All those kids were murdered WITH HER GUNS. Do not really care how or even why she had them - she did...and because she did she is dead and so are 27 others.

Do you honestly think if she knew what was going to happen she might not have done something a little different?

Certainly blame the gun lobby - and their dupes for ensuring it so easy for him to have access to them.

edit:
"Just not buying it...I don't fault her for legally purchasing and possessing her firearms. If they were illegal, that would be a different matter. But they weren't."

And THIS is a huge part of the problem...YOU won't accept that her having unfettered access to these arms allowed him to have all the access he needed to the means to murder 27 people.

Strange, and sad.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:39 PM

95. Drunk driving

Last year, in my town, we had a young 16 year old girl go into her parents refrigerator, steal some beer, get in her car and proceeded to kill herself, and another innocent family that had the misfortune of being on the road at the same time.

This girl had NEVER been caught drinking before. In fact no one that knew her had any idea if she had ever drank before, this may have been her first time (shes dead so we can't ask her).

Is that the parents fault? In this case the deadly weapon (both alcohol, and car) were not even locked up. Do you blame the parents? Remember, they are now victims also, they lost their only child.

As far as I know, as of right now, we have NO idea how much info Mom, or Dad had on Adams mental state. We have some speculation from people who knew them, but no idea if Adam was ever even seen by a mental health professional, much less diagnosed with a disorder that would deem him unlawful to own a gun.

Until we get concrete past history information, from a legal source, everything is speculation.

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #95)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:01 PM

97. Whose guns were they? Was the possession of those guns forced upon the Mom?

No - she chose to have guns...the very guns that were accessible to and used by her son to commit murder.

Lots of known dangers re: owning guns - yet for whatever reason they were ignored or discounted by Lanza's mother. For whatever reason she figured SHE was safe. Turned out she was wrong. She suffered for it, as did 26 others.


So many of us have alcohol in our homes, freely placed there by ourselves. Freely accessible to anyone who wants to help themselves. We choose to ignore or discount the possible negative affects of our kids getting drunk, taking our car, and killing some poor innocent family.
Damn right we are responsible.


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Response to jmg257 (Reply #68)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:48 AM

85. Agreed. We'll never hear it, of course, but I would love to

have heard her response to Mr. Heflin's question as to why she needed an assault weapon. Is an A-R15 required for hunting down bambi or is it simply for target practice? Is there some rogue government I don't know about out there so menacing that citizens need to arm themselves with assault rifles against it? Is Newtown, Connecticut so crime ridden that citizens need assault weapons to protect themselves against bands of roving thugs? What is it? Interesting that when Mr. Heflin posed the question, no one had a legitimate answer.

By leaving those weapons, which she would have had a hell of a time justifying, out where her mentally ill son could get at them, Nancy Lanza contributed toward making the crime possible. That she, too, became a victim is ironic.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #85)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:53 AM

89. "That she, too, became a victim is ironic." Isn't that the truth?

If it wasn't so fucking heart-wrenchingly sad that so many innocent others went with her, it could be the ideal illustration of 'dumbass' - getting murdered for & with your own gun, especially if one you just had to have...because you could.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:20 AM

76. His mother was at fault.

She knew her son had issues, yet she tried to bond with him over the guns. If she kept these guns in a safe spot, they should have been under lock, and no one else should have had access to the key. She was not a responsible gun owner. She was a mother who was at a loss over her son and behaved in a very stupid and dangerous way, and those school children and teachers paid the price.

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Response to Rider3 (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:22 AM

77. Again, we don't know how those guns were accessed

There is no such thing as a fool proof safe or gun cabinet.

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Response to B2G (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:30 AM

81. BUT!

You do not try to bond with someone - over a GUN - when that other person has mental/anger issues. She knew this, yet kept the guns around? She was not responsible. Her actions proved it. She made it easier for him to obtain these guns.

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Response to B2G (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:37 AM

83. Yep - so just maybe NOT owning them would have turned out MUCH better for her, him

and all those other poor people he kille dwith them.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #83)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:42 AM

84. Do you really think that all guns

are going to be banned and the problem will be solved?

I like to deal in reality.

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Response to B2G (Reply #84)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:49 AM

86. No - I don't think all guns are going to be banned.

Which of course means the problem will not be solved.

I understand well that the selfish and frightened NRA dupes will not let anything substantial happen legally, at least on the federal level, and in numerous states.

And so it will always be on the gun owners & dealers - illegal or otherwise, & manufactureres, etc. when they fuck up, whether they do so purposely or not.

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Response to B2G (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:14 PM

92. If you cannot guarantee the security of your guns

...why should you be allowed to have one?

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Response to Robb (Reply #92)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:10 AM

98. Can you guarantee the saftey of your car?

Your children? Anything?

There are NO absolute guarantees about anything. It's called life.

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Response to B2G (Reply #98)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:17 AM

99. Or death...depending which end of the barrel you are on. Unless of course there

are no barrels.

No - there are no guarantees, except this...substantially reduce the numer of guns, and you substantially reduce the number of gun-related deaths.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #99)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:22 AM

100. True. And if we reduce the number of cars on the road

we will substantially reduce the number of vehicular deaths, which is far greater than gun deaths.

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Response to B2G (Reply #100)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:49 AM

101. Agreed...except that traffic accident fataties don't surpass gun related deaths by much

2010
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
•Number of deaths: 33,687
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.9
...
All firearm deaths
•Number of deaths: 31,672
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.3

So let's start with the guns which are too often used to purposely kill dozens at at time, then look at how we can better control cars next....beyond licensing, speed limits, registration, insurance, etc. etc. etc.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #101)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:05 AM

102. 61% of those deaths are due to suicide

I don't see that talked about often.

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Response to B2G (Reply #102)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:17 AM

105. Its actually talked about quite a bit. And only a very small percentage are accidents.

Probably why guns are called 'deadly weapons', when other objects are called 'deadly instruments' only depending on how they are used.

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Response to B2G (Reply #98)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:06 AM

103. I can. Quite literally.

I'm required by law to guarantee that if I hit anyone, I have $300,000 ready to pay them for their injuries or death. That's per car.

How much does the law require you, per gun, to guarantee? Why do you get some kind of free pass?

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Response to Robb (Reply #103)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:11 AM

104. No. There is a difference

between guaranteeing you won't kill anyone while driving your car vs financial compensation in the event that you do.

Either way, the victim is dead.

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Response to B2G (Reply #104)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:22 AM

106. Yes, but if you won't even deign to take responsibility, why should we trust you?

Answer: we shouldn't.

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Response to Robb (Reply #106)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:26 AM

107. You're juding gun owners to be irresponsible

Because they don't carry mythical firearm insurance? It's not a requirement. It doesn't even exist.

If it should ever become one, you can then make that assertion.

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Response to B2G (Reply #107)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:32 AM

108. Responsibility for your guns is some kind of unicorn for you.

I'm judging you irresponsible because the very notion of being responsible in any way enrages you.

It's like talking to a poorly-socialized four-year-old. And we're all getting tired of picking up after your messes.

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Response to Robb (Reply #108)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:46 AM

109. WTF does this even mean?

"I'm judging you irresponsible because the very notion of being responsible in any way enrages you."

How would you know about anyone else's sense of personable responsiblity? Do you know how I store my gun? Do you know my proficiency in handling it?

You know nothing, yet you stereotype legal gun owners into one sordid group of irresponsible gun toting maniacs who are to be feared, ridiculed and demonized to fit your narrow world view.

Pathetic really, and I'm done trying to reason with you.



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Response to B2G (Reply #109)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:52 AM

111. I'm not stereotyping. I'm talking about you.

Right here in this subthread, not moments ago, you balked at the idea of some fraction of responsibility -- a proposal for liability insurance on guns, as we do cars -- like a child refusing to pick up ANY of his toys. You look up, once again like a child, and say I'm being mean.

And now you shall wander off in a huff. What am I to think, except that I'm talking to an irresponsible child?

In fairness, perhaps you have that thing goldfish have, where you can't remember what happened more than 60 seconds ago? If so, I retract everything and apologize.

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Response to Robb (Reply #111)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:14 PM

113. Show me where I balked at insurance

I did not. I rightly pointed out that it wasn't currently required. Where did I state I was against it?

Now I'm truly done with you. You are an insufferable buffoon.

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Response to B2G (Reply #109)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:58 AM

112. We do know this - that you are trying to defend another former gun owner

whose culpibility in her own murder and the murder of 26 other innocent people is beyond question.

"...authorities have said the gunman, her 20-year-old son Adam, used the guns she kept at their home to carry out a massacre that became the second-deadliest school shooting in U.S. history"

I think we also see a level of selfishness in YOUR arguments (not all gun owners). Maybe we are wrong, but it really doesn't seem that way.

edit: "culpability describes the degree of one's blameworthiness in the commission of a crime or offense"
"culpability is a measure of the degree to which an agent, such as a person, can be held morally or legally responsible."
...
3. A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct.
4. A person acts negligently with respect to a material element of an offense when he should be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct.

Yep - culpable & partly responsible.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:50 AM

110. Were the weapons belonging to AL's mother securely locked up?

Did he just take them because they were in an unlocked case?

Did he have the combination or the key if they were locked up?

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