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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:49 PM

Armed 'Good Guys' And The Realities Of Facing A Gunman

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/29/170456129/armed-good-guys-and-the-realities-of-facing-a-gunman

<snip>

It was 2005, at the Tacoma Mall in Washington state. McKown had been chatting with friends when gunshots rang out. Everyone hid; but McKown had a pistol. For years, he'd carried a legal concealed weapon, with the thought that someday he'd protect others. Now it seemed that moment had come.

Enlarge image
Dan McKown, who confronted a gunman at a shopping mall in 2005, says he doesn't regret his actions, although he was shot five times and is now in a wheelchair.

Martin Kaste/NPR
Gun drawn, McKown scanned for the shooter. But the gunshots stopped. Unsure what had happened, McKown tucked his pistol back under his coat — just as the shooter walked right in front of him.

"So anyway, I'm standing there like Napoleon Bonaparte, with his hand, you know, in his jacket," he recalls. "So I said, 'Young man, I think you need to put your weapon down.' "

That moment of vulnerability gave the other guy just enough time to shoot McKown. The bullet hit his spine, and he found himself unable to aim his own gun.

<more>

51 replies, 2715 views

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Arrow 51 replies Author Time Post
Reply Armed 'Good Guys' And The Realities Of Facing A Gunman (Original post)
jpak Jan 2013 OP
Zoeisright Jan 2013 #1
LineLineReply .
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #3
bongbong Jan 2013 #18
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #21
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #44
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #48
Silentnomore Jan 2013 #2
jpak Jan 2013 #4
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #28
October Jan 2013 #5
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #7
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #43
Hoyt Jan 2013 #8
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #9
frylock Jan 2013 #17
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #22
frylock Jan 2013 #25
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #29
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #32
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #34
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #33
frylock Jan 2013 #35
Coyote_Tan Jan 2013 #37
frylock Jan 2013 #42
Coyote_Tan Jan 2013 #46
lapislzi Jan 2013 #39
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #49
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2013 #16
Whovian Jan 2013 #20
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #30
lame54 Jan 2013 #27
Hoyt Jan 2013 #6
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #11
SQUEE Jan 2013 #38
Hoyt Jan 2013 #40
SQUEE Jan 2013 #45
FarCenter Jan 2013 #10
mokawanis Jan 2013 #13
FarCenter Jan 2013 #14
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #23
kenny blankenship Jan 2013 #12
War Horse Jan 2013 #15
Common Sense Party Jan 2013 #24
bongbong Jan 2013 #19
rjj621 Jan 2013 #36
bongbong Jan 2013 #47
rjj621 Jan 2013 #50
bongbong Jan 2013 #51
clarice Jan 2013 #26
guardian Jan 2013 #31
rjj621 Jan 2013 #41

Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:51 PM

1. Yep.

Gun humpers think they are some form of Rambo or John Wayne, when reality is actually very different.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:57 PM

3. .






"gun humpers"????






You TaliBanners are so predictable. It would be tedious if it weren't so funny.

yep yup yep yup yep yup

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:39 PM

18. Don't be so Delicate

 

You Flower.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:01 AM

21. Gee, it looks like my one and only ignoree must have responded.

What a shame I won't be able to read their pearls of wisdom, to savor the depth and vitality of their logical argument.


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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:35 PM

44. Your language choices, re "Talibanners", are those used by Republicans and Freepers.

Are you one of them?
Just curious since you sound like one and use their language and "nicknames".

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:47 PM

48. Someone uses a stupid term like "gun humpers," I will use an equally

stupid term like "TaliBanners." It isn't a Repug or Freeper term. It does accurately depict the repressive attitude many have toward inanimate objects, though.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:55 PM

2. Sometimes it works out well.

 

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:57 PM

4. No he did not

NRA myth FAIL

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:05 PM

28. We may never know, actually.

The shooter is dead, and he would have been the only one able to say definitively if spotting Nick Meli with his handgun drawn was what caused him to stop shooting at others and turn his weapon on himself. It seems to be the case that no further shots besides the suicide shot were fired after the shooter spotted Meli. Whether that "stopped" the rampage is open to debate (and will never be known).

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:59 PM

5. Sometimes? Not good enough. Not reason enough.

And I think your choice of word, "sometimes," is generous. "Rarely" would be more accurate.

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:02 PM

7. I guess the Trolley Square shooting (SLC) doesn't count,

since it was an off-duty cop from another city who stopped the shooter.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:32 PM

43. there's like maybe 3 examples of you can use but thousands of shootings and deaths etc

where you can't say anything except "2nd amendment" but I don't see anyone in that "militia" the Constitution talks about in the 2nd A.

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:02 PM

8. Yea, and a frail elderly lady stopped Loughner without a gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:10 PM

9. And without beans.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:21 PM

17. scares ya, doesn't it..

that an elderly woman disarmed loughner in between loading magazines. and she did it without a gun.

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Response to frylock (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:03 AM

22. Why on earth would that scare me?

Does it scare you? Are you that insecure? You poor thing. Why don't you go lie down until the vapors have passed.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:35 AM

25. it scares you because it destroys a couple of gun humper arguments..

that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. in this case, a good woman without a gun disarmed a bad guy rather handily. the other argument destroyed in this instance is that limiting magazine capacity is useless, as these guys are so good that they can reload in the blink of an eye. well, again, this woman managed to disarm loughner in between reloads.

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Response to frylock (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:08 PM

29. Mostly this just shows the inanity of "black and white" arguments.

Sometimes armed and unarmed bystanders alike can stop armed criminals. Sometimes they can't. Some people can change magazines in an eyeblink. Some can't. There are as many variables as there are incidents, really...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:42 PM

32. Now, now...there's no call for bringing logic and common sense into an emotional debate. n/t

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:50 PM

34. Sorry.

What was I thinking...?

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Response to frylock (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:43 PM

33. So you ARE that insecure.

Perhaps you can take some self-esteem course.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #33)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:53 PM

35. you got nothing, slappy..

nothing. now go kiss your guns.

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Response to frylock (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:30 PM

37. So gratifying...

 

... to see well thought out, rational debate.

Oh wait...

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Response to Coyote_Tan (Reply #37)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:30 PM

42. not nearly as gratifying as being lectured by a n00b

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Response to frylock (Reply #42)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:52 PM

46. One doesn't need...

 

... to spend years in front of a computer monitor to realize that the last ditch effort to win a debate is to ignore the subject altogether and attack on a personal level instead.

All it shows is a lack of substance and an appeal to base emotion...

Bravo...

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #33)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:50 PM

39. Do you have anything to, you know, actually contribute?

Beyond sarcasm and insults, I mean. I have read several of your comments on this thread, and they add nothing to the discussion except to expose your own bias.

Maybe you should keep quiet while the adults are talking.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:51 PM

49. Sure thing. Make sure you point out one of these "adults" if you see one in this thread.

Thanks. Have a great evening.

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:37 PM

16. And sometimes it works out like, well, Trayvon Martin. nt

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:50 PM

20. You do realize that in the link you provide, the "good guy" didn't fire a single shot?

 

Are you suggesting that the mere sight of a gun will drive "bad guys" to suicide?

Okay, then.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:28 PM

30. The PBS story on the same incident mentioned that any disruption

In a murderer's routine is key, shots fired or no. The lone armed security guard at Columbine (who was off-campus at the time the FUs began shooting) rushed back and twice fired long range bursts with a handgun, disrupting the punks' routine and driving them from a crowded patio.

Incidentally, the Tacoma citizen who was shot faulted himself (giving a humane choice of dropping the gun to the punk) for his injuries. Yet he does not regret his actions, even though confined to a chair.

BTW, there is no guarantee that things will turn out well in an armed confrontation; that and allusions to John Wayne are tired gun controllers' memes.

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Response to Silentnomore (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:58 AM

27. better read the article you posted

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:01 PM

6. I feel for the guy, but apparently gunner would have left at that point. Instead, our would be hero


will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

At least, he didn't shoot an innocent bystander as is very likely when most public gun toters -- no matter how many paper targets resembling humans they have practiced on in preparation for the day they can play cowboy -- have less than a few seconds to assess a situation. I know a lot of public toters love to train for that moment -- even training with their kids on a family outing -- but they are irrational if they think they are going to calmly respond as their "lethal weapons instructor/mentor" taught them in the training room.

If people are stupid enough to believe they'll respond properly, they need to be banned from having lethal weapons.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:19 PM

11. How is it "apparent" he would have left at that point?

I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:41 PM

38. I have every confidence I will respond, coldly and properly to many scenarios

And many that I know who have had proper and realistic training would as well.
Catch 22, if a person is training to counter these very real but completely uncommon threats, they will be labeled as paranoid and playing cowboy. You can't have it both ways.
Besides, I am sure your quick disassembly technique will save the lives of those around you. or a tactical can of beans. Having never committed a felony, I am glad I have the right to be able to defend myself, and not worry about having to change my line of work.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:57 PM

40. New I'd encountered you before. My can of beans works well -- has kept criminals at bay without



having to resort to a gun in my pants. And, I don't have to look like a fool carrying a gun.

Enjoy your guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:28 PM

45. I have been here a while, also I don't "carry" in public..

and if I did, my firearm of choice would designate a messenger bag or small back pack...

And yes I do enjoy them, if only that were enough for you, but no, your fear, projection and paranoia lead you to want to remove my enjoyment and rights.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:14 PM

10. It's stupid to give the perp a warning

Take cover, draw, stay concealed, and shoot to kill when the perp exposes himself.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:24 PM

13. Pretty simple, eh?

Too bad there's no guarantee it will work out that way. What if you miss the perp and shoot a kid in the head? What if a cop thinks you're a second shooter aiding the perp? My point is all kinds of things can go wrong and it would be foolish to subscribe to some heroic fantasy where you blast the perp and become an instant hero. Might work that way, might go horribly wrong.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:32 PM

14. No, it's complicated, but blabbering to the perp makes it more so.

Note that I said to take cover first. Any action after that requires good judgement. Drawing attention to yourself is not good judgement.

Your weapon is for self defense. You have no obligation to go up against a better armed opponent unless you, yourself are threatened.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:08 AM

23. "When you have to shoot, shoot don't talk" -Tuco

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:22 PM

12. "When you need to shoot, SHOOT. Don't talk."

--Tuco Benedicto Pacífico Juan María Ramírez

Wise words.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:35 PM

15. Most folks don't have any idea

what a real, live situation is like. That's part of why this "good guy with a gun" stuff scares me so much.

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Response to War Horse (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:49 AM

24. Of course, most police officers don't have any idea what a "live situation" is like, either.

Still, we trust that they are good guys with guns and will do well if and when the time comes.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:42 PM

19. The whole "good guy" thing is a huge lie

 

How can you PROVE you're a "good guy"? How can you PROVE you won't snap in a situation? How can you PROVE you won't be the guy gunning down innocents, either by accident or because you snapped or had bad judgement?

It's just another in a long line of NRA Talking Points (AKA Big Lies)

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Response to bongbong (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:19 PM

36. No one can PROVE it

nor can they PROVE they won't take a kitchen knife or pocket knife and stab someone out of bad judgement or snapping. Trained military or even cops can't PROVE they won't snap in a situation and have had bad judgement calls. It's really easy to sit back and second guess those stories when we aren't facing it ourselves.

Some of the gun discussions and views from both sides are reasonable and intelligent, some I agree with and some I don't. Seems like much is based on nothing more than closed mind personal bias and reaching to justify it to everyone else or in most cases after a tragedy of any sort, knee jerk reactions to make people feel better.

Also, both sides of this debate, like most debates, LOVE to pick and choose facts they want to accept and listen to while ignoring, trying to down play, or scouring the net to find counter points

One thing that worries me is this ridiculous trend of "should have seen it coming" because they were quiet, depressed, angry, grades slipping...etc. Counselors at schools are looking for the littlest of things that may be a sign, the start hounding the kids and parents about about their feelings and potential actions, essentially making something out of nothing all in the name of BS safety. Happened to two kids at my daughter middle school and based on poems the English teacher asked them to write. It was a nightmare for the kids and parents and no one cares because no one wants to think they may have missed something so they FIND things in what kids have been doing for all of human existence. Kids suspended for using his fingers to point like a gun, that's what kids do, many boys have a natural fascination with guns starting right around the 6 or 7 age range. When I was that age and playing cops and robbers we made fun of the kids who didn't have realistic looking guns and they had to be the boring cops.

I can't help but wonder about us as a society being so quick to point a finger and lay blame that perhaps we're missing the fact that some of our very own actions, opinions, and views being enacted to 'protect' everyone are partially causing some of these problems.

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Response to rjj621 (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:53 PM

47. Ah, more NRA Talking Points

 

So you think somebody can slaughter 20 school children as easily with a knife as with a gun?

Boy, you gun nuts (Delicate Flowers) are CRAZEEEEE!




> our very own actions, opinions, and views being enacted to 'protect' everyone are partially causing some of these problems.

Yes, there are WAY too many guns. That's the problem.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:46 AM

50. How exactly

does someone raising other points or considerations that DARE question any one side of a debate automatically make them a staunch supporter of the other side as you implied by classifying me as a 'gun nut'? Really? That's your retort? Someone questions your stance or statement and they must automatically be for what you are so strongly against? Do you frequently stoop to these methods and assumptions?

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Response to rjj621 (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:51 PM

51. Yawn

 

Your post was the 23,554,965th regurgitation of the standard NRA Talking Point euqating knives and guns.

A laughable and long-debunked lie.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:54 AM

26. curious

Does it mention in that story whether McKown's actions
deterred the shooter from killing other innocent people in the mall? If so, then he is a real hero. You mentioned that McKown
"heard shots". What or who was the gunman shooting at?

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:32 PM

31. So the behavior/actions of one individual

 

is your justification for a national policy that affects hundreds of millions of people?

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Response to guardian (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:29 PM

41. Seems to be a fairly accepted practice

To one degree or another a fraction of a percent of bad apples will be the result of people screaming for tighter (or just more) laws to 'protect' millions of other people who were at little to no risk to begin with or even to stop them from ever doing anything wrong that most wouldn't have done anyway. I would give damn near anything for a real bottle of classic green death flavor NyQuil instead of the worthless crap we have now and I don't want to go to the pharmacy and hand over my ID and sign a few forms in blood just to get some decent meds to help kick a cold.

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