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Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:49 PM

 

My problem isn't self-identifying as a feminist in front of men, it's women

Too often I get the eye roll, and the whole "you've got to be shitting me look"

Yet I think a great deal of us men ARE feminists and proud of it

Your thoughts?

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Reply My problem isn't self-identifying as a feminist in front of men, it's women (Original post)
Taverner Jan 2013 OP
actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #1
Taverner Jan 2013 #2
actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #7
bettyellen Jan 2013 #9
Recursion Jan 2013 #3
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2013 #32
boston bean Jan 2013 #4
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #11
boston bean Jan 2013 #13
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #16
boston bean Jan 2013 #17
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #19
boston bean Jan 2013 #22
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #35
boston bean Jan 2013 #40
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #44
boston bean Jan 2013 #70
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #87
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #63
boston bean Jan 2013 #64
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #83
boston bean Jan 2013 #89
tama Jan 2013 #72
boston bean Jan 2013 #73
tama Jan 2013 #82
boston bean Jan 2013 #92
Deep13 Jan 2013 #99
Taverner Jan 2013 #46
datasuspect Jan 2013 #5
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #49
Astrad Jan 2013 #6
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #67
bettyellen Jan 2013 #8
Evoman Jan 2013 #10
redqueen Jan 2013 #18
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #42
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #12
seabeyond Jan 2013 #20
redqueen Jan 2013 #33
Taverner Jan 2013 #47
patrice Jan 2013 #14
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #52
boston bean Jan 2013 #15
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #21
Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #23
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #24
Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #26
redqueen Jan 2013 #25
Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #27
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #28
boston bean Jan 2013 #29
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #30
redqueen Jan 2013 #31
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #34
redqueen Jan 2013 #36
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #38
redqueen Jan 2013 #39
Taverner Jan 2013 #50
redqueen Jan 2013 #54
Taverner Jan 2013 #56
redqueen Jan 2013 #60
Taverner Jan 2013 #48
gollygee Jan 2013 #37
Evoman Jan 2013 #45
Helen Reddy Jan 2013 #81
gollygee Jan 2013 #41
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #69
gollygee Jan 2013 #71
ananda Jan 2013 #43
seabeyond Jan 2013 #51
seabeyond Jan 2013 #53
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #55
seabeyond Jan 2013 #57
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #59
seabeyond Jan 2013 #62
redqueen Jan 2013 #65
tama Jan 2013 #84
redqueen Jan 2013 #85
tama Jan 2013 #86
seabeyond Jan 2013 #58
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #61
seabeyond Jan 2013 #66
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #75
seabeyond Jan 2013 #76
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #79
Gormy Cuss Jan 2013 #68
ladjf Jan 2013 #74
Cary Jan 2013 #77
freshwest Jan 2013 #96
Jennicut Jan 2013 #78
MissMarple Jan 2013 #80
Sissyk Jan 2013 #88
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #90
Recursion Jan 2013 #91
loyalsister Jan 2013 #93
Zorra Jan 2013 #94
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #95
uriel1972 Jan 2013 #97
frogmarch Jan 2013 #98
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #100
La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2013 #101
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #102

Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:55 PM

1. did you mean...

...to type MEN in your title?

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Response to actslikeacarrot (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:55 PM

2. Thanks, missed that

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:02 PM

7. ok. here is a thought...

...I think many women out there are conditioned by society to think that feminist is a bad word. like wanting equality is unlady like. Hence the term "feminazi" thrown around and the whole "make me a sammich" bullshit. Facebook is notorious for finding that crap.



On edit...I take it by the "us men" in your OP that your a man, and are wondering why some women don't think men can be feminists. Is that fact going to change your views on women and equality? Its your thoughts and deeds that matter, not what you call yourself.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:04 PM

9. at first I thought you were talking into the mirror, and thought that kinda shit could be the root

cause of the eyerolling, LOL.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:57 PM

3. I try not to worry too much about how people react to labels I claim

Then again, I also don't walk up to women I don't know and say "I'm a feminist! Really!" Probably because that would seem creepy.

I do have a "This is what a feminist looks like" T-shirt. Never gotten any flack for it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:10 PM

32. LOL ..."I don't walk up to women...." funny

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:59 PM

4. If you are a male

you are a feminst ally.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:15 PM

11. Why?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:17 PM

13. Why not?

for a more, brief, yet satisfactory answer (I believe).. see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125514945

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Response to boston bean (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:25 PM

16. If you say so.

Do women really need male validation in any shape, form or under any label?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:32 PM

17. absolutely not, and I think that is exactly the issue.







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Response to boston bean (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:44 PM

19. So you want to change the label as a means of achieving what?

I don't see how changing the label does anything more than demonstrate that you do, indeed, need male validation. "You can't call yourself a feminist because you are not a woman, but I want you to agree with me and I want your support so call yourself a "feminist ally". Perhaps, I'm looking at this through the wrong lens, but I don't see the significance. Sorry.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:52 PM

22. huh? Definetely looking through the wrong lense.

I do call myself a feminist. I am a woman.

Take a look at this through a historical view, ok.

Feminists fight for equal rights for women. Who do we want the same rights as? Well... that would be men.

The right to vote, , the equal rights amendment, the right to own property, the right of autonomy over our own bodies, historically to today?

The reason we exist is to have our own voice in the equality we seek in the struggle to be on par with men.

To have men who already have more rights, criticizing, telling women how to proceed, etc is anathem to what feminism means to me.

However, I do recognize there are a good many men out there who are quite supportive of feminism. They are our allies. Just like many straights are allies of LGBT.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:17 PM

35. I used the "You" in reference to men, as if you were speaking, not you boston bean...

I can see how that was confusing. My apologies.

Every time a woman enters into a discussion, particularly on the internet, with a man who wants to direct the conversation, who wants to tell her how she should do something, she is validating his opinion. IMHO, it is better to ignore those men entirely. Republicans in the senate have shut down debate...why? Because it validates the opinions of Democrats to debate them. The same is true when it comes to discussions regarding equal rights for women. I have no problem with a man who self-identifies as a feminist, as long as he is not criticizing women for whatever nit-picking reason he can find. I ignore the fools who think they have some right to tell women how to behave, think or speak...their opinions have no value to me.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:25 PM

40. Did you read this OP? Was it not critical of women?

Someone who thinks women ought to just feel so blessed bye him because of his self proclaimed title, then gets all upset when women are jumping up and down for joy, is part of the problem, no? I see a lot of this. And which is why I have come to the conclusion I have come to.

And this OP leads directly to my point that feminism is a womens movement, not a mens movement. We are struggling for equal rights for women. There is nothing wrong with that.

Many groups have focused goals. Men who are real allies, understand why women think they are being a bit to loose with the label, and would understand the reasoning for women to control that space.

That isn't what I got from the OP, you? No he wants to control just by his mere utterance of the words that "I am a feminist".

That is anathema to feminism, imho.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:06 PM

44. Yes, I read the OP

and yes it was critical of women just like yourself, who would, no doubt, roll your eyes at him for calling himself a feminist. He said nothing critical of women in general...had he, I wouldn't have bothered to read one more word of the thread. The definition of "feminist" reads a Person who supports the movement, not just women who do. Are you wiling to kick him to the curb because he chooses the wrong label? How will that benefit anyone?

I saw no evidence that Taverner expects women to feel blessed by his support, nor that he became upset with anyone. Perhaps your attitude is due to previous run-ins with him? That, of course, would change the dynamic.

You must be younger than I, Identity Politics, developed after Reagan moved the county so far to the right, played no part in the early movement.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:13 PM

70. I have no idea of your age, do you know mine?

I've read the OP fine and he is critical of women.

I certainly don't feel blessed by a male who calls himself a feminist and then goes on to critique it. Taking things so personal, instead of looking where these valid feelings may come from.

To each their own I guess.

Have a good one.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:51 PM

87. You too.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:01 PM

63. You must be kidding.

I'm male, and have identified as a feminist for 25 years, meaning, as generally accepted, agreeing with and fighting for equal pay, equal rights, women's rights, including abortion right (I have escorted at Planned Parenthood for 20 years).
I was a friend of a former head of the Alice Paul NOW chapter in S. Jersey, and she initially educated me on some women's issues, and she certainly considered me a feminist.
Sorry, but just because you are female doesn't mean you get to redefine the word, or exclude me from being included.

And there was nothing offensive about the original post. He was not trying to control anything.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:02 PM

64. Nope I'm not kidding, and I'm not excluding you from anything. nt

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Response to boston bean (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:50 PM

83. Seems like you are excluding me from referring to myself as a feminist

Am I misreading this?

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #83)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:53 PM

89. In my book you are a feminist ally, I think from what you say.

Which means you are supportive of feminist ideals. And are very welcome to support feminists in their struggles, and we feminists are extremely grateful.

However, if as a man, you decide to tell me what feminism is, or how or what to focus on, or how to express myself, I might question if you fully understand feminism. Women deserve a place to focus on their issues from their perspective. Not that we always agree, but we have had many of the same experiences and know from where we came. Just like LGBT and ethnic groups have their allies.

Women should be able to own feminism without men co-opting the movement, by proclaiming themselves feminists and then proceed to tell women who are feminists what to do. If that were to happen that would be anti feminist.

A man who supports feminism should understand all of this.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:13 PM

72. "he wants to control"

 

Telling others how to interpret a word "correctly" and who can use it and who cannot is not a will to control? As you say, "understand the reasoning for women to control that space".

But not all women have exactly same reasoning and will to control that space, but rather just certain individuals and groups of individuals sharing a similar interpretation of feminist philosophy. So that reasoning for our interpretation of feminist philosophy to control that space extends also to controlling that space of other women and other sexual identities beside male sexual identities.

Can't help thinking that that sounds like putting will to control over equal rights for all.

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Response to tama (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:15 PM

73. Of course feminists have differing opinions.

Those differing opinions should not be used to spark animosity amongst feminists or be used by a man to tell a woman what her opinion should be. Wouldn't you agree?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #73)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:37 PM

82. I agree

 

that it is good to avoid sparking animosity, generally, and to generally avoid being authoritarian who tells others what their opinions should be.

We can share our experiences and opinions and listen and learn from others, and widen our space of comprehension, empathy and compassion. We can recognize our mutual needs for individual space and solitude, as well as need to share space and to be touched and cared for. These are basic human needs with lot of individual and cultural variety, so the learning process does not end. What I don't like is authoritarianism in any form and will to control more and more abstract and extended spaces in authoritarian way, not least because such attempts tend to just spark animosity between human beings, and in how humans relate to their environment.

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Response to tama (Reply #82)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:14 PM

92. Go tell the NAACP they need to make room for white persons voices and....

take heed of the opinions of white folk. I'm done having to defend the right for women to have a movement where they control the agenda, and their historical oppressors are not in charge.

We have that right, we are no different than any other oppressed group in that regard.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:02 PM

99. I'm certainly not going to tell you how to proceed.

And if I did you could always just point out that I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:18 PM

46. No, I am a feminist

 

I believe in equality - I am an egalitarian, above being a Socialist, Anarchist, Democrat or Atheist

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:59 PM

5. datasuspect is universal love, the yoni and lingam

 

genderlessness rolled into one fertility: fluid.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:22 PM

49. I like that

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:02 PM

6. It's like being a wealthy socialist

you can be rich and socialist but it's not the same as being socialist and not rich.

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Response to Astrad (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:03 PM

67. Bull

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:02 PM

8. i think there are as many jerky women as men.... and the whole thing trying to discredit

feminism has taken it's toll on society. there's also a big contingent of guys who follow up "i'm a feminist, BUT... *i'm hurt when women aren't always nice* " so, sometimes we're waiting for that shoe to drop...again.

i have a tendency to judge people on how they act, not by who they say they are. but i'm pretty cynical.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:14 PM

10. Doesn't bug me. I don't usually call myself a feminist (though I thoroughly am),

but if I do, and a woman rolls her eyes at me, it doesn't matter one whit.

I still have your back, I still support woman's causes, and won't take offense at was is a reasonable suspicion from women. The fact is that a lot of men talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. For the most part, women DESERVE to be skeptical of us.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:32 PM

18. You are a very thoughtful person.

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:39 PM - Edit history (2)

I am glad we have you as an ally.


On edit, though, this part:
"if I do, and a woman rolls her eyes at me, it doesn't matter one whit"

I think it does matter. It would seem to me that she is arguably among those feminists who would prefer that male allies didn't adopt the term for themselves... I'm not sure how many feminists have to sign on to the idea that men can't be feminists before it becomes an opinion that matters.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:36 PM

42. my husband has had a profound affect on how I view good men

He grew up in the South with an alcoholic abusive father who is racist, sexist, and homophobic. He decided very early on that he didn't want to be racist or sexist. I'm not sure why but the homophobic part stuck for a long time though. About ten years ago he decided he didn't want to be homophobic either. He credits me with changing his mind on that one. Low and behold this last year our daughter came out as bisexual. He has treated us with nothing but love and respect. I'm sorry if I'm gushing. It's just as a woman who has known pretty much nothing but sexist, disrespectful men in my past, I am just so tremendously grateful for my husband. I am also grateful for any man who decides to be a good man and treat women with respect.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:15 PM

12. I seem to remember having this conversation before

Maybe instead of identifying yourself as a feminist you should content yourself by supporting feminist causes without requiring the title.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:47 PM

20. ...



i see you.

quietly, thank you.

whether a man wants the title or not.

thanks.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:12 PM

33. Thank you.

Succinct, thoughtful response.

Glad you're on board.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:19 PM

47. I do nt

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:19 PM

14. "Imagine all the people . . . "

. . . living for today.

. . . living life in peace.

. . . sharing all the world.

I think John Lennon was referring to women and men, but I guess he may also have been telling us that one has to be willing to be the one to take the first move to help this to happen.

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Response to patrice (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:28 PM

52. +1

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:22 PM

15. More criticism about women from a self proclaimed "feminist".

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:48 PM

21. we should be applauding men who treat women with respect

not rolling our eyes at them. If you are a feminist and you treat women with respect then I applaud you. I told my husband it may be time for me and our daughter to go protest an abortion bill that is being proposed in our state senate, and my husband said he would go with us. To that I say HELL YEAH! Thank you for being a feminist.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:58 PM

23. I'm not sure that treating women with respect should be applauded as something above and beyond

the call of duty. Seems to me that treating women like fellow human beings should be the default, not the exception worthy of note.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:00 PM

24. whether it is your mother, your teacher, your spouse, your friend, whoever

You should always tell people that do good things for you that you appreciate them. You shouldn't take it for granted.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:03 PM

26. I totally agree with that.

No problem there. I just don't agree that meeting the bare minimum of respect and decent treatment is especially noteworthy. You're supposed to treat others with respect.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:02 PM

25. +1

Showering men with cookies for showing basic human decency sets a pretty low bar.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:04 PM

27. I didn't want to mention the c-word,

*cookie*, but I totally agree.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:07 PM

28. I show appreciation to my wonderful husband everyday

And yes I do consider my husband a feminist. He has treated me as a 100% equal in our marriage from day one, I appreciate him and tell him so. I can't say the same for my father, my brothers, or my husband's father or brothers. None of them are feminists. And guess what? They don't get the same amount of appreciation out of me as my husband does.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:08 PM

29. Does your husband consider himself a feminist?

You call him one, but what about himself?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:09 PM

30. Yes he does

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:10 PM

31. I show appreciation for acts of advocacy.

I don't show appreciation for basic human decency. It is the absolute minimum. It takes no effort to recognize that women are human beings.

I also don't show appreciation for people who aren't racist. Or not homophobic. It is simply expected.

Now straight allies and allies in the fight for justice for minorities, they get appreciation.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:14 PM

34. excuse me? straight allies and allies who fight for minorities get appreciation but men who

fight for women don't? Wow. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that in the strongest way possible. You go ahead and do whatever you want. I will show appreciation for the men in my life who treat women with respect and who fight for women's rights.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:17 PM

36. You misread.

If they actively advocate for women's rights, then I do consider them an ally. I most certainly do appreciate those allies.

If they simply agree with feminism, then they're just agreeing that women are human beings. It is very sadly and extremely common for people to claim to be feminists based on nothing but agreeing with the idea.

It is also sadly common to hear men say things like, 'I'm a feminist, but women should have to include their partners in decisions about abortion.'

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Response to redqueen (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:19 PM

38. I consider the way people treat each other to be activism

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:20 PM

39. We disagree on that, then. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:22 PM

50. Look - I don't want no goddamn cookies

 

I want less eye rolling - it should be no different than identifying myself as an egalitarian, which sometimes ALSO gets eye rolls

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Response to Taverner (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:44 PM

54. Why are you cussing at me? I was replying to someone else. And it is *very* different.

The woman who reacted with disdain toward you is probably one of the many feminists who thinks men should not self identify as such.

There are many feminists who share that opinion, and many male allies agree.

It isn't exactly breaking news that what women think doesn't matter all that much, until they manage to convince enough men to agree with them, so... yeah.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:47 PM

56. Wasn't really cussing at you - I just talk that way

 

Sorry if I offended

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Response to Taverner (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:56 PM

60. Aw thanks...

No I wasn't offended, just surprised. I didn't mean to imply that you'd been expecting special treatment... that arose from a subthread.

I get what you're saying, eye rolling is rude... I don't think it's a fair reaction, but I can understand why its probably not uncommon. Lately there is a trend for people to claim to be feminist while acting in decidedly unfeminist ways ... this site lists a few examples.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/I'm_a_feminist_but

We are all raised steeped in patriarchal culture, so there is a lot of internalized misogyny and its bad enough having to deal with that from other women...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:20 PM

48. No - I don't want cookies, I just don't want the eyeroll

 

You did read that part of my OP right?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:18 PM

37. I appreciate men who are advocates of women's rights

and I don't personally own the word "feminist" and there will always be disagreement about its use. At least most men who use the word for themselves seem to me to be supportive and have good intentions.

However, to me, calling a man who is an ally to feminism a feminist is like calling a straight person who is an ally to the gay rights movement gay. Feminism is a women's movement, so it really is all about women, and we are the ones who decide what feminism is about and should be concerned about, and even about how the word should be defined. We will disagree, and that's fine, and I'll never personally own the word. But I do think that it's all about women. That's the point of it.

I remember the other thread about this where one male DUer told another male DUer, "But we haven't even defined what feminism is yet." That's the kind of thing that gets to me. WE, as in women, define what feminism is. And again, we will disagree, but it's still our disagreement.

Also (on edit) I don't understand why men who support feminism feel so strongly that they should be called feminists. I don't understand why they wouldn't say, "Ok, well I'll support your movement in whatever way works best" and go with it. I am not bothered by men who call themselves feminists - I'd never say anything to you in public if I heard you call yourself that despite my disagreement with the word being used that way - but I don't get the arguing over the ability to use that word.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:13 PM

45. Sometimes I don't get it either.

I've called myself a feminist because I agree with much of the literature and concepts of feminism as they were taught to me and as I understand them. It doesn't matter at all to me whether you disagree that I should call myself a feminist or not.....maybe you are right that a man shouldn't use the word to describe himself.

In the end, it doesn't matter (and I'm not sure why guys get so butthurt at opinions like yours). What matters on the part of we men is action: actions to defend the rights of women, and actions to prove ourselves allies of equality.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:32 PM

81. Nicely stated. n/t

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:26 PM

41. I'm going to post something else here too

I don't want to be argumentative but I don't know if there's a way to say this question without being argumentative.

If you're saying to women something that translates to "I'm supportive to women" and they are responding in a way that indicates they don't find it supportive, wouldn't it make sense to re-evaluate whether it is actually supportive rather than be proud that they don't find it supportive but you do it anyway?

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Response to gollygee (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:08 PM

69. A subset of women are responding that way. They don't reperesent all woman.

No woman I've ever known has resented my calling myself a feminist.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:13 PM

71. I'm talking about the OP

His OP is something like, "I call myself a feminist (which means supporter of women) and women are rolling their eyes (showing they don't find it supportive) but rather than step back and wonder if it's actually supportive to do that, I feel proud that I've done something they've found unsupportive in the name of how supportive of women I am."

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:38 PM

43. Thank you!

We love our allies.

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Response to ananda (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:24 PM

51. +1.



absolutely

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:32 PM

53. this would be an indicator for you tav. YOU are a feminist, you say. the end. it does not matter

what a single women says. you do not listen, discuss or try to understand. you put out the statement, make your declaration, and that is the end of the story.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:45 PM

55. that's what everybody has to do for themselves

Look at how many Christians tell other Christians they are not Christians because they don't belong to their specific church. Look at how many republicans tell demcrats they are not American because they don't believe the same things they believe. Hell, some democrats tell other democrats they are not democrats because they don't believe exactly what they believe. Republicans say that Obama is not Christian and is not American. Does someone telling someone else that they are not someting really make them not that thing? Does what someone else tells you you are define you or does what you tell yourself define you? The key to having a good self esteem is not caring what others think about you. If some men want to call themselves feminists and they are confident in who they are then what someone else tells them is not going to matter and it shouldn't.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:48 PM

57. it is a womans movement. a movement about gays. christianity, political parties

are not about a specific gender, or sexuality, or race.

i will not tell a gay or a black how they should think, feel, what is important to them. and a man is not going to ignore my experience and tell me how i need to think, feel when it comes to womens issues.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:53 PM

59. All he is asking is to not have people roll their eyes at him.

That is really that offensive as a woman to have a man ask not to have a person roll their eyes at them? Wow. Maybe feminism means different things to different people. Rolling eyes at people who want to help is not my definition of feminism. Maybe you have a different definition and I guess that is okay. For me I will continue to show appreciation and respect to any human who is willing to show respect for others.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:00 PM

62. no, he is calling out women saying they are a problem. if they disagree, he, the man, is

telling women to keep it to themselves. isnt that the very essence of what the issue is? why should a woman keep her mouth shut because a man tells her to. he is telling her, this is how it is, accpet and shut the fuck up or you ARE the problem. it does not matter what you think, what your voice is.... shut up.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:03 PM

65. And all women are asking for is a modicum of empathy. We don't know what her day was like.

It isn't like she screamed at him, or insulted him, or slapped him.

Men have no idea the kind of crap women face on a daily basis. It is entirely possible, even likely, that her reaction was precipitated by one of the oh so sadly common encounters most of us are all too familiar with.

But we don't know. I wonder if Tav asked.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:56 PM

84. Empathy is natural

 

It's ability to share emotions, feel pain when someone else is in pain. It's in-group phenomenon. If some one perceives e.g. all men or all women as out-group, not one of us, there is no empathy with the "Other". Empathy is two way channel, and all us-against-them positions shut down that channel between us and them.

We all have bad days when we slash out in pain and frustration, and when we live together we learn to read those situations and have patience and offer comfort and support. It's much more difficult to read others over Internet. Especially when you are being excluded from a group, turned into the "Other", beyond empathy.

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Response to tama (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:02 PM

85. Wow. So by excluding men from *the use of a title in a women's movement*, women are now 'othering'

men.

Unreal.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:47 PM

86. Those are huge generalisations

 

of human beings into abstract categories. In my experience we often escape into abstract generalizations when we want to avoid being in better touch with our emotions, some of which we condemn and deny for various reasons.

You cajole another DUer of not feeling empathy, just saying that empathy is two way street and in-group phenomenon. If I'm feeling empathy and compassion towards someone, it does not even cross my mind to think that that someone is not one of us and feeling empathy.

I'm not looking for a fight, hope you are not looking for a fight. I hope that you don't feel hurt, but that you feel well. Because if you feel hurt, I feel some of that too. For me you are not one of them but one of us. A fellow human being. <3

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:51 PM

58. btw liberal, i love your posts about your husband.

i am glad you are living that life. i have for a lifetime only had men like that around me. and it is who my husband is. i wouldnt allow anything less in my life. so i get and respect that.

we disagree on this because over the years i have seen men declare themselves feminist and then proceed to prove to me how they are not. men convinced me otherwise. i use to think men could be feminists.

and i have personal experience with tavs posts.... and you know, he is consistently on womens sides with rights. but no, i do not see it in other posts when it comes to other issues with feminism.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:58 PM

61. oh I have no doubt I have probably disagreed with him on other topics

I've disagreed with just about everybody on here about something.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #61)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:03 PM

66. but, that is the point.

what if a feminist had seen some of the behavior that we have on du, and he declares himself a feminist and she is saying, this this this suggest you are not.

and he does a rant on du, saying women need to shut up and accept he is a feminist. but, you know, i do not. love tav, but i dont. he is consistent with womens rights. yea. i respect that. but, he is not gonna tell me he is a feminist and that he is right about womens issues and experience and i need to nod in agreement.

isnt that the very issue women have always lived under the patriarchy?

what feminist would go along with it. and if they did, are they truly feminists to allow themselves to be cowed by a man?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #66)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:22 PM

75. apparently there is no satisfactory definition of feminism

I don't see not rolling my eyes at someone as cowing down to a man. If you don't want to call him a feminist then by all means don't. If he wants to call himself a feminist then I think he has the freedom to do so. Personally I don't like it when other people tell others what they are or are not but that is just me. You are certainly free to do so and he is certainly free to not let you tell him what he is or is not. okay I think I'm done. Peace and love to everybody.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:25 PM

76. the woman is free to roll his eyes, and he is free to not agree and declare himself a feminist,

this is true.

he is certainly free to not let you tell him


but, he is not free to "not let her"

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:29 PM

79. he defines who he is. no one else does.

Just as no one can define who I am. Only I can do that. Just as no one can define who you are. Only you can do that. Anyway, I'm getting out of the line of fire. You do whatever you want.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:06 PM

68. If you get the eye roll, take it as a sign.

Of what? Dunno, you'd have to ask the woman who rolled her eyes.

Maybe she's a feminist who doesn't think that men should use that label. "Pro-feminist" or "feminist ally" would be decent alternatives.

Maybe the eye roll means something else, like the woman has observed your actions or heard your philosophies on gender and isn't convinced.

Either way, ask.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:20 PM

74. Your problem might be that you have posted this OP too many times. nt

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:25 PM

77. Be self-actualized

In other words go with what you think, rather than what you think people think of you.

Your cause is just. Have confidence in it and in yourself.

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Response to Cary (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 09:52 PM

96. Thanks Cary.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:26 PM

78. As a woman, I don't think you have to be a woman to be a feminist.

But not all women agree. To me, if you are for women's rights and equality you are a feminist.
Many men are for more women's rights then certain women are. Conservative women are not feminists but liberal men can be. Gender does not matter to me as much as your beliefs do.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:31 PM

80. OH. MY. GOD.

Taverner, look what you started.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:52 PM

88. My thoughts?

I will not give you the eye roll if you self identify as a feminist. And the women that do roll their eyes at you, should recheck the dictionary.

My husband is probably more of a feminist that I am.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:53 PM

90. The vast majority of DUers accept that a man can indeed be a feminist.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:59 PM

91. Do you volunteer this info, or do they ask?

Can you see why that would make a difference?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:25 PM

93. My sister made fun of me for it

I asked her if she knew what it meant to be a feminist and she admitted she didn't. It wasn't much of a surprise because she said she didn't think the ERA is needed.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:39 PM

94. Darlin', you can call yourself anything you damn well please.

As long as you're not trying to tell female feminists what to do or what we should do, or presuming that you can tell us what to do or what we should do ~ well, then thank you so much for your support, and you can call yourself Lady Gaga or napoleon for all I care.

There was a time. not all that long ago, when homophobic feminists told us that lesbian issues were insignificant and excluded our issues from the feminist agenda.

Lesbian feminists were known as the dreaded and deadly Lavender Menace.

These days, transphobic feminist bigots are hating on a new lavender menace ~ transgender women.

But of course, some will hem and haw, and insist that it's not the same type of thing at all...

...but it really is.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:57 PM

95. keeping people seperated and categorized doesn't help anybody

It's when we come together that we do the most good.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:07 PM

97. I'm an egalitarian...

I consider myself a feminist and have been called on a number of occasions an "Honorary Woman", but I rarely use the term as it still has a number of negative connotations and not everyone appreciates it (feminist that is). So be it. Walk the walk and who gives a crap what others think.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:10 PM

98. You'd never get the eye roll

from me. My husband and two grown sons are feminists and proud of it too.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:26 PM

100. K&R

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:29 PM

101. besides being women do they have anything else in common?

like saying it to people you are trying to hit on or pick up? or is their only commonality gender?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:51 PM

102. I don't generally tell people that I am a feminsit, or a feminst ally.

People just eventually figure it out through my words and how I treat people.

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