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Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:37 PM

This is another gun thread for those hiding them.

Seems the AR-15 style rifles are the hottest selling duns currently on the market. That got me started wondering why. What is it about this gun:



that makes it so much more popular than this one:



which is, I am told, functionally the same and roughly half the cost. It even has high capacity magazines and “tactical” accessories available.

I have come to the conclusion that it is a matter of attitude; what happens inside the head of one who holds it. I base this conclusion on a number of anecdotes and personal experience.

Goldie Taylor, USMC ret and former congress person said on MSNBC, that she had a gun because she was a single mother living in a bad neighborhood and that just having a gun made a difference in her attitude. It gave her a sense of control and power even though she knew that at 5’4” and 100 lbs. she was far more likely to be hurt with it. She then said that she was turning the semi auto pistol in to the police.

My brother owns property way out in the country. He had just come in from hunting when he found a man inside the fence of his property supposedly looking for a lost dog. In recounting the story he told me he said things to that man which, in any circumstances, would be threats of lethal intent. “Yeah, when ya’ have a .270 with a round in the chamber ya’ get real brave.”

These two anecdotes are about “non military” type weaponry. Could it be that military look-a-like guns trigger the same machismo? If this ad is any indication:



the gun manufacturers think so.

For me, this gives some credence to the “gun = manhood” meme.

The image of machismo pushed by the gun manufacturers has a purpose. The AR type guns can be “customized” with any number of extra cost accessories, the least of which is the 30 round magazine.



In fact, the gun can be outfitted to the point that its original design features of light weight, simplicity and maneuverability are completely eliminated. Almost all ARs get “personalized” to some extent and some to the point that they are almost unusable making them a real profit center. One proud owner showed off his pride and joy to me and it was so “outfitted” that I couldn’t comfortably reach the forward pistol grip and actually touching the fore grip with pistol grip folded was impossible. It would seem that size does matter.

So, it occurs to me that the difference in the two guns isn’t functional but emotional. The black militaristic style of the gun touches some deeper need than sport or self defense. It really is an example of the “man card”.

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Reply This is another gun thread for those hiding them. (Original post)
flamin lib Jan 2013 OP
OneGrassRoot Jan 2013 #1
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #6
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #21
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #59
loyalsister Jan 2013 #88
OneGrassRoot Jan 2013 #92
loyalsister Jan 2013 #96
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #99
OneGrassRoot Jan 2013 #101
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #2
Squinch Jan 2013 #79
regjoe Jan 2013 #3
flamin lib Jan 2013 #11
regjoe Jan 2013 #19
flamin lib Jan 2013 #22
regjoe Jan 2013 #26
Melinda Jan 2013 #35
regjoe Jan 2013 #57
Melinda Jan 2013 #74
regjoe Jan 2013 #85
Melinda Jan 2013 #87
hack89 Jan 2013 #90
Melinda Jan 2013 #102
hack89 Jan 2013 #103
Melinda Jan 2013 #104
flamin lib Jan 2013 #110
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #60
flamin lib Jan 2013 #44
regjoe Jan 2013 #50
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #63
hack89 Jan 2013 #4
FirstLight Jan 2013 #8
flamin lib Jan 2013 #12
loose wheel Jan 2013 #15
Animal Chin Jan 2013 #23
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #36
hack89 Jan 2013 #37
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #42
hack89 Jan 2013 #45
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #46
hack89 Jan 2013 #47
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #48
hack89 Jan 2013 #49
flamin lib Jan 2013 #61
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #64
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #62
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #73
Bandit Jan 2013 #75
hack89 Jan 2013 #82
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #5
patrice Jan 2013 #7
Squinch Jan 2013 #80
patrice Jan 2013 #81
guardian Jan 2013 #9
flamin lib Jan 2013 #13
guardian Jan 2013 #17
believer10101 Jan 2013 #10
flamin lib Jan 2013 #18
RoseMead Jan 2013 #29
jmg257 Jan 2013 #30
RoseMead Jan 2013 #32
jmg257 Jan 2013 #33
jmg257 Jan 2013 #34
Recursion Jan 2013 #14
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #16
DonP Jan 2013 #24
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #25
Recursion Jan 2013 #39
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #83
hack89 Jan 2013 #122
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #20
kudzu22 Jan 2013 #27
SayWut Jan 2013 #28
Paladin Jan 2013 #31
Recursion Jan 2013 #38
Paladin Jan 2013 #40
Recursion Jan 2013 #43
Paladin Jan 2013 #53
Recursion Jan 2013 #54
SQUEE Jan 2013 #71
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #41
SQUEE Jan 2013 #68
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #91
X_Digger Jan 2013 #97
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #107
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #100
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #105
SQUEE Jan 2013 #109
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #111
SQUEE Jan 2013 #112
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #117
SQUEE Jan 2013 #118
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #119
SQUEE Jan 2013 #120
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #121
SQUEE Jan 2013 #126
SayWut Jan 2013 #51
Animal Chin Jan 2013 #52
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #67
thetonka Jan 2013 #55
flamin lib Jan 2013 #56
Hoyt Jan 2013 #58
nick of time Jan 2013 #65
Hoyt Jan 2013 #66
nick of time Jan 2013 #72
SQUEE Jan 2013 #69
rbuchanan Jan 2013 #70
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #76
rzemanfl Jan 2013 #77
ileus Jan 2013 #78
jpak Jan 2013 #93
rbuchanan Jan 2013 #94
jpak Jan 2013 #98
nick of time Jan 2013 #95
flamin lib Jan 2013 #106
nick of time Jan 2013 #108
SpartanDem Jan 2013 #123
flamin lib Jan 2013 #124
SpartanDem Jan 2013 #125
flamin lib Jan 2013 #127
SpartanDem Jan 2013 #128
flamin lib Jan 2013 #129
SpartanDem Jan 2013 #130
ileus Jan 2013 #113
jpak Jan 2013 #115
ileus Jan 2013 #116
chemenger Jan 2013 #84
aikoaiko Jan 2013 #86
ecstatic Jan 2013 #89
marions ghost Jan 2013 #114

Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:41 PM

1. Your theory makes sense to me. However...

what I've observed in the last couple of years is the rise in women gun enthusiasts who pose in their living rooms with their guns...name them...subscribe to the various new catalogs which target female gun enthusiasts with "Hello Kitty" rifles and other fashion (?) guns and accessories.

That disturbs me tremendously.

Maybe the same theory applies to women; even if it IS a Hello Kitty AR-15, it's still macho because it's an AR-15.



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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:51 PM

6. Pink Handguns

With a donation with every purchase to the Susan G. Komen Foundation.

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Response to legaleagle_45 (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:20 PM

21. Buy a deadly weapon, and call yourself "pro-life"!

BRILLIANT!!!

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:50 PM

59. It's still macho because it's an AR-15 which is macho? Will the circle be unbroken?

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:00 AM

88. That would explain S.E. Cupp and Sarah Palin

They both seem to have an excessive fixation with guns that they revel in. It's really disgusting.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #88)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:20 AM

92. Yep. My issue is more with the whole culture of it all...

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:43 PM - Edit history (2)

I've learned more about guns since Sandy Hook. The two takeaways that helped me see things with more of an open mind are 1) There actually are people who view it purely as a sport, like archery; 2) The gun manufacturers are the ones who seem to have made the landscape such that nearly all of the guns today are technically semi-automatic and militaristic, no doubt thinking ahead to what's happening right now.

So my focus isn't so much on the guns themselves right now, but instead this culture of irresponsibility and callous disregard for life (oh, the irony since most of the people I speak of would consider themselves "pro-life") cloaked in Second Amendment, patriotic BS.

What bothers me more than anything is the growing number of people (especially women, and gun/accessory marketers are taking advantage of their interest, big time) who seem to have a lack of respect for the power of the weapon -- and even seem to try to deny it IS a weapon by how nonchalant they are. I know there have been toy guns around forever, and we've had a gun culture in this country forever, but if you look at the graphics below, you'll see what I mean.

And I also think there is a decidedly racist aspect to much of what we're seeing concerning guns from the right-wing (I think there's a decidedly racist aspect to most everything concerning today's right-wing/Tea Party faction). In the first graphic, the white people posing with guns would likely look at the young black man as a "thug," but they don't see themselves that way at all.


(NOTE that the Dewalt nail gun shown below is actually a hoax, per snopes; I'm surprised there isn't such a product being sold since so many have said they would love to have this. My point in including it in the graphic is the same.)








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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #92)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:50 AM

96. Well said

"So my focus isn't so much on the guns themselves right now, but instead this culture of irresponsibility and callous disregard for life (oh, the irony since most of the people I speak of would consider themselves "pro-life") cloaked in Second Amendment, patriotic BS."

"Gun porn" and not recognizing the seriousness of the specific intended purpose for the weapon is rampant- even here on DU. The usual deflection I run across in response to pointing out that they are designed specifically to kill people is that some knives are designed for that purpose and baseball bats can be used to kill people. Neither of which have the capacity to kill A LOT of people, BTW.

I agree that normalizing the physical structure so that it is viewed as less threatening than it is truly is distressing. As it seems to serve as propaganda for manufacturers.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #92)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:32 PM

99. The Dewalt Nail Gun is a Hoax. You've been had.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #99)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:42 PM

101. Actually, I neglected to post the disclaimer about that...

I discovered it wasn't real a few weeks ago, but the point remains the same. I'm surprised they DON'T sell a nail gun that looks like that.

I'll update my post though. Thanks.



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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:42 PM

2. So If I buy one of those games I'll feel more manly?

Damn. I never would have considered that - but you've sold me. Are you in marketing? I want . . no I need to be as manly as possible, and if this gun will help, I've got to have it.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:16 PM

79. Well, lucky for you the Bushmaster comes with an actual Man Card.

And on the Man Card it says that the buyer of the gun is now a real man, and he has saved himself from total humiliation because he now owns the Bushmaster gun.

That is literal. I'm not making that up.

The "guns are an attempt to prove manliness" theme is not a liberal fiction, nor misandry perpetrated by anti-gun people. It is a very successful marketing tool used by gun makers and aimed at gun buyers.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:45 PM

3. So how did each one make you feel when you owned them?

 

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Response to regjoe (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:00 PM

11. Never owned one. Qualified in the army with one and with the M-14 and 1911.

Got out of the army and had no interest in either of them. I do have a number of WWI & II rifles that haven't been out of the gun safe for over a year, so I'm not a "grabber".

So, if I had to describe how I felt when I used the military weapons, I'd have to say tired.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:16 PM

19. Tired?

 

Why not more "manly?"

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Response to regjoe (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:22 PM

22. I'm not concerned about my masculinity, don't feel the need, at this point, for male enhancement

mechanical or pharmaceutical. YMMV

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:49 PM

26. Then why assume others think differently?

 

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Response to regjoe (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:38 PM

35. The OP posts a cogent, well laid out observation (argument) - and you claim they're assuming?

What part of the process seems to be missing on your end?



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Response to Melinda (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:44 PM

57. The OP is an "observation" based on a predetermined opinion

 

An opinion that intentionally disregards performance as a primary factor in owning an AR, in order to claim a mental weakness or problem.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:13 PM

74. You claim his analysis "predetermined", lacking in criteria

ie; "disregarding performance". You lost me when you said the OP intentionally disregarded performance as a primary factor , however... The OP listed the criteria he used to arrive at his conclusion - he did not assign a value of importance to the factors he used, unlike you did when assigning the value of "primary" to the performance factor you believe the OP should have used. And you've completely lost me when you accused the OP of fabricating an opinion "in order to claim a mental weakness or problem". Say what?

It would be ever so much easier if you'd quit talking in sound bites and just say what you mean to say. Statements about 'assuming' doesn't really explain your position on this subject anymore than a blanket statement about his "predetermined opinion" does- it's just so much noise signifying nothing but dismissal. Nobody learns anything from the words posted.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #74)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:26 AM

85. The OP begins from the point of "guns = manhood"

 

and uses "anecdotes and personal experience" to come to the same conclusion.
The OP admits to basically no experience with the two weapons, but yet claims to know what other individuals feel when they buy or use them. That is an assumption.

As you request, to the point.
Looks play a part in almost everything, but performance is the primary factor when buying a gun, not emotion. The pros of an AR over a standard rifle have been posted many times, but those things are totally ignored by the fear crowd who prefer to shout the "Rambo" and "man-hood" rhetoric.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:55 AM

87. Then could you please explain this...

It's your opinion that "performance" is the primary factor when buying a gun. Considering the image produced and promoted by Bushmaster....


directly correlates with the OP's premise (Consider your man card reissued - really?), the irony is rich. Is this ad promoting the idea that owning this weapon makes one perform better? If so, what kind of performance are they talking about? Is this ad not emotion based to push those "manly" buttons?

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Response to Melinda (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:15 AM

90. One of many gun manufacturers

why is it the only image that counts?

My wife and daughter don't shoot AR-15s to reenforce their masculinity.

Why is it so important for gun control advocates to squeeze all gun owners into a handful of boxes with simplistic labels? The reasons for buying a particular rifle are as numerous as there are gun owners.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #90)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:13 PM

102. It's only one of the images the OP uses, and it *is* by Bushmaster, afterall.

OMG, I am so embarrassed... you are not the joe I was discussing this issue with, and therefore you've no question to answer. I am sorry, old eyes need look more carefully.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #102)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:17 PM

103. Yes - that ad is appealing to masculinity to sell guns

sex sells in advertising - we are bombarded with it everyday.

That doesn't mean that it is the sole reason people buy Bushmasters.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:18 PM

104. Hello (revised) not so new person...

The Op doesn't claim it to be the sole reason either. I agree with you both.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:17 PM

110. Ya' know what? There are enough assholes in the discussion without you aspiring to become one.

Limited experience my fucking ass. No real argument? Not a problem, just attack the messenger and deflect from the message.

1.) the OP is about attitude, or more definitively a change in attitude produced by having a gun. That is what the two anecdotes illustrate. The fact that gun manufacturers use masculinity concerns to market the Goddam things is an outgrowth of that attitude. I've had it up to my navel with the commentary on "my wife/girlfriend/daughter". The feminine market for guns is tiny and marketing is aimed at handguns for self defense, aka the Lady Smith.

2.) basically no experience? How the fuck do you know what my experience is? Who died and made you an expert on MY LIFE EXPERIENCE? Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.

3.) if performance is the "primary" reason for a gun purchase there would be a much larger market for revolvers and bolt action rifles. Revolvers are much easier to keep on target as much of the recoil of semi autos is the inertia passed into the hands by the slide hitting the stop. Semis bounce up and away from the target, pivoting around the center of motion, revolvers (even .357s) are much easier to control. Bolt action rifles are inherently more accurate than semi autos with all the moving parts albeit that is largely a moot point with modern ammunition and manufacturing.

Lets face it, shooting real fast is fun and exciting. Not for shit if you want to actually hit something, but fun. And THAT'S WHAT SELLS GUNS.

Now why don't you take your superior ATTITUDE (which is what the OP is about) and share it with someone who cares.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:52 PM

60. I think he just got check-mated, no?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:09 PM

44. Personal observation. nt

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:26 PM

50. Fair answer

 

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:59 PM

63. understood.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:46 PM

4. It is merely a rifle

it is accurate, light, very ergonomic, and easy to shoot.

It is perfect for hunting and target shooting (which is what I use it for).

It is the only kind of rifle my wife and daughter can fire comfortably - light weight, light recoil, very adjustable.

Lets keep in mind that every rifle is basically a military rifle at heart. Millions were killed in WWI and WWII by bolt action .30 caliber rifles - like those "hunting rifles" I keep hearing are ok to own.

Like every generation before, a large group of men in the military become familiar and comfortable with a certain type of rifle. The AR-15 is a 50 year old design - is what two generations of men think of when they hear the word rifle.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:53 PM

8. I personally

think if I was gonna have something for hunting, target fun and maybe home security, the second one is more than enough. Those high-fallootin' machine guns scare me! To many things that I'd probably screw up! LOL Besides, if you aren't very good at aiming or body-ergonomics, I would think the ones that keep shooting can spray bullets in scary ways.

I want to have something around, even if it is just a pellet gun, to have because we live in the Mtns and it could be defense for coyotes, or used for small game if we get stuck in that circumstance, but that's about it.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:04 PM

12. The civilian ARs aren't machine guns. One trigger pull, one bullet although

many novice shooters inadvertently fire more than one round due to tension. In fact the military has stopped using full auto rifles as standard issue; they fire a burst of three rounds and have to be re-set by taking the finger off the trigger.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:08 PM

15. That's not a machine gun.

 

Infact the only type of "gun" in existince that are "machine guns" would be miniguns that are battery powered, multi-barrel, belt-fed beasts. They are typically crew served or vehicle mounted, unless you happen to be a robot from the future sent to destroy the savior of humanity.

The AR-15 is just a magazine fed, semi-automatic rifle that fires fairly light rounds at a medium velocity. It's also a barbie doll for men, in that it has tremendous amounts of aftermarket items that can create a highly personalized weapon.

Also, since you live near the mountains, I would point out that an AR-15 is an excellent varmint gun.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:23 PM

23. "the second one is more than enough"

I think part of the point of the OP is that these are (functionally) the same guns. There is no more or less to "screw up" on either one. The only difference is that one is made out of wood and metal and the other is made out of polymer and metal. Each is semi-automatic and can hold high capacity magazines. The AR-15 has "rails" on the top and side that allow you to add accessories such as scopes and laser sights more easliy, although these can be added to the second rifle as well).

I'll stop before I start sounding like an NRA spokesman, but this is what they mean when they talk about "cosmetic features," and I think they have something of a point. Two rifles shoot the same bullets, at the same rate (semi-automatic) and from a high-capacity magazine, but one is illegal because it has a pistol grip or a bayonet lug.

To me, there is no difference between these two rifles.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:45 PM

36. it is a MILITARY rifle, designed to SELL MORE to civilians, once again

It is the only kind of rifle my wife and daughter can fire comfortably - light weight, light recoil, very adjustable.

the one and only?

field and stream likes this one: (it sounds much better to me, too)

these below come with 6 round EXTENDED mags. i don't even love guns, and i'll say those are pretty damn sweet looking, as far as guns go. those Finns love their guns, too...

We welcome every rifle owner, regardless of price or make preference to come and benchmark the Tikka T3's performance against their old rifles. We believe the only way to match the T3 is to go to a custom shop and invest several times the price. If even then. Tikka T3 offers no gilded engravings, no extra cup holders or delicate polished wood - just incredible out-of- the-box accuracy, silky smooth operation and uncompromising reliability with Sako's beautiful finish and rigorous attention to detail as standard. With the Tikka T3, you hit one of the most difficult targets in the shooting world: true value.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:53 PM

37. We don't need to switch rifles

ours work just fine and pose no danger to anyone.

Why get yourself so worked up? AR-15s aren't going anywhere - even if the AWB was to pass. Which it won't.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:01 PM

42. of COURSE, you completely ignore the 6 round thing

and the 'only one they can use' thing

ar-15s can go to hell as far as i'm concerned.

oh wait, they're just objects, guess we'll have to melt them here upstairs!

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:09 PM

45. I can understand your frustration

it is not my fault that your gun control fantasies will not come true. Instead of ranting on an internet message board, why aren't you out there doing the necessary political grunt work it will take to ban AR-15s?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:13 PM

46. my webcam is not on

how the hell do you know what i'm doing?

i should go out in a snowstorm and grunt about guns?

hello?

23 EOs worth of 'fantasies' AND an AWB. unh. unh. (i'm grunting)

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:17 PM

47. I support the EOs and universal background checks.

the AWB is not happening. And if it did - I still get to keep my AR-15s. Win - win in my book.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:19 PM

48. right- you'd get to keep your 'gun', so why bother pooping on an AWB

if it doesn't even affect you?

you are polluting the discourse.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:25 PM

49. We have another OP psycho-analyzing gun owners

and wonder of wonders they come out looking bad again.

The "discourse" was polluted a long time ago. Do I need to drag up all the "fuck gun nuts" threads?

What you call polluting is what I call deflating some pretty puffed up, pompous gun control advocates who are now having to come to grip with a heavy dose of reality.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:55 PM

61. I don't shoot very often but I really like the Swiss 7.5, replacement for the Schmit Ruben 31.

Designed for the Swiss military in WWII they make 2-3 inch groups @ 100 yds with iron sights. Silky two stage trigger and unique straight pull bolt.

Most people don't have to make any adjustments to the sights (I didn't on either of mine) as they were sighted in by the fellow who assembled them and did final check. You can find his/her name and the delivery date written on velum under the butt plate.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:00 PM

64. i've got a WWII Mossberger .22

i prefer guitars, though.

those finnish guns are damn nice looking. like i said, as far as guns go.

which is often a bit TOO far...or the wrong direction...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:58 PM

62. Farminator, this country is ALL about looks. The AR 15 is just a semi-auto with tail fins...

If you want to pass a law on looks, or psychological messages ("hidden persuaders" for those living through the 50s), then I would suggest you think "beauty" is only skin-deep. And enforced by law.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:57 PM

73. oh jeez

beauty IS only skin deep.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone
Dorothy Parker quotes

http://www.searchquotes.com/search/Beauty_Is_Only_Skin_Deep/2/

tail fins? you are still IN the 50s?

http://www.tolerance.org/lesson/beauty-skin-deep

http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/turn-beauty-inside-out-day-winning-essays

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Response to hack89 (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:27 PM

75. My own personal experience is that it most definitely not very accurate especially when compared

to a normal long barrel hunting rifle. I have fired hundreds if not thousands of rounds through the military version and it is no where near as accurate as an M-14 or M-1 rifle. Neither is it powerful enough to keep you safe if you happen to be in bear country. When the military created this small caliber round it was not for kill capacity but just the opposite. A wounded soldier takes more men off the battlefield than a dead soldier does. The desire was to wound more than it was to kill. There is virtually no knock down power to a .223 caliber round as compared to any .30 caliber round..It is NOT a hunting rifle unless all you are hunting is rabbits or gophers...Try hunting brown bear with it and let me know how that works out for you....

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Response to Bandit (Reply #75)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 08:41 PM

82. I would use an AR10 in .270 or .300 WSM if I wanted to hunt deer.

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Or an AR-15 in 6.8mm or 6.5 Grendel. That is the beauty of the AR-15 platform - it is infinitely flexible.

The AR-15 is extremely accurate when appropriately modified - there is a reason is the most popular rifle for High Power Rifle target competitions.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:47 PM

5. Tricked out

Much like having your car tricked out so that it has a hood scoop, rear spoiler and racing stripe. (OK, confession... my car has a rear spoiler-- but it was factory installed--- and I have no racing stripe, painted on flames or hood scoop).

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:53 PM

7. Shouldn't we also be talking about the "in-crowd" card? Tell me capitalism doesn't live & breathe on

herds of people who just have to have __________________________ (WHATEVER) or suffer emotional trauma, insecure self-concept, social deprivation, caustic cliquery and demotion, all of the pangs of hell, if they don't wear clothes with the right label on them, say the right designer name in reference to their shoes, smell right, if they aren't willing to camp over-night outside of a Big Box and trample other human beings into the concrete under their feet, in order to be able to say the diagonal measurement of their two tvs is 3" bigger than last year's.

Men aren't in this thing alone, you know, I think we need to identify just how up-to-date everyone's herd-card is when they own one of these "personalized" ARs and how well it accessorizes their monster-SUV/truck personal transportation choice as they circle the local strip-mall yet once again and again looking for other herd-members to impress with their "success".

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Response to patrice (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:30 PM

80. Important element of this argument, and one not often raised!

The "I have the best toy on the block" attitude is a big part of the infantilization of Americans, and it is a factor in the escalation of hobbyist gun capabilities.

Along with a lot of other issues.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #80)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:51 PM

81. other issues: would love to look into how many gun-fellowship groups there are in churches, a

not entirely unlikely prospect in light of middle-class gangsta-wannabes and their grocery-store-hunter dads, especially with the ascendency of LiberTEA-publicans suggesting Civil War II and secession over anything and everything from Pro-Choice, to LGBTQ Civil Rights, to the Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act of 2010.

... sorry, I live in a deeeep red state and tend to be a bit cynical.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:54 PM

9. What does the OP have to do with

 

people "hiding" guns? That is the subject title of the OP.

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Response to guardian (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:06 PM

13. Hiding gun threads, not guns. Beleive it or not some peoplr are bored by it all. nt

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:12 PM

17. Okay

 

thanks for the explanation.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)


Response to believer10101 (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:12 PM

18. Not demonizing anything, just opining about why some people buy some products over others of

similar capability. When talk of gun violence legislation began an acquaintance spent $1700 on an AR style rifle that the week before sold for $700. What the ef was he thinkin'? What motivated him to do such a thing?

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Response to believer10101 (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:24 PM

29. You are incorrect about Sandy Hook

A different rifle was left in the trunk, but the Bushmaster was the primary killing weapon:

State Police: All 26 Newtown victims shot with assault rifle

Lt. J. Paul Vance, the face of an ongoing Connecticut State Police investigation into worst grade-school shooting in U.S. history, Thursday debunked media and Internet reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza killed his victims with handguns and not the Bushmaster XM-15 E2S rifle that is now the focus of a proposed federal assault-weapons ban.

All 26 of Lanza's victims were shot with the .223-caliber semi-automatic rifle, said Vance, who bristled at claims to the contrary during an interview with Hearst Connecticut Newspapers.

>snip<

Vance said he made it abundantly clear during his media briefings since the tragedy that Lanza carried out the shooting with the Bushmaster.

"I personally articulated that probably a dozen times in Newtown," Vance said.


http://www.greenwichtime.com/newtownshooting/article/State-Police-All-26-Newtown-victims-shot-with-4220548.php


Edited to add: per the story, it was an Izhmash Canta-12 12-gauge shotgun that was left in the trunk.

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Response to believer10101 (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:26 PM

30. "That the Newtown shooter left his AR-15 in the trunk of his car and used pistols...

on his rampage has been hidden by news reports" from the "media"."

Might want to study your conspiracy nonsense memes a little harder before posting them here.

"He has the Repubs on the ropes but instead of knocking them out has chosen to break into their homes, threaten them, demand they give-up what 63% of the country believes is a Constitutional right, laugh at them, and then demand they do what he wants whether Congress agrees or not. "

No one is buying the 1st distracting bullshit lie anymore, nor are they buying the 2nd bullshit lies about the President...except for the NRA and their other RW dumbass dupes.

If YOU are teaching gun safety, I really feel very sorry for your students and their families.


http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284


STATE OF CONNECTICUT
Department of Emergency Services &
Public Protection
Connecticut State Police
Public Information Office
1111 Country Club Road
Middletown, Connecticut 06457

Reuben Bradford
Commissioner Colonel Danny R. Stebbins
Deputy Commissioner
Division of State Police

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 18, 2013


** UPDATE **

STATE POLICE IDENTIFY WEAPONS USED IN SANDY HOOK INVESTIGATION;
INVESTIGATION CONTINUES

In previous press conferences, the Connecticut State Police clearly identified all of the weapons seized from the crime scene at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

To eliminate any confusion or misinformation, we will again describe and identify the weapons seized at the school crime scene.

Seized inside the school:

#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber-- model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round magazine

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

This case remains under investigation.
Lt. J. Paul Vance


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Response to jmg257 (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:28 PM

32. Thank you. n/t

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Response to RoseMead (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:31 PM

33. Cheers - you too! nt

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Response to believer10101 (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:35 PM

34. "This is a way to so increase gun and ammo sales that the number of privately owned firearms

is increasing more quickly.."

"All this will do is galvanize the opposition ...This is not a way to win votes."

Your concerns are duly noted. How come I get the impression you are much more concerned about the 1st problem - and getting YOUR guns while you can, instead of Democrats winning votes?

Hmmm...just how much did you over-pay for your new toys anyway?

Dumbass suckers...fools and their money...

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:07 PM

14. Veterans tend to like the model of rifle they trained on

Even though the gas tubes are different, the bolt is the same and cleaning/maintenance are largely the same. The grip is marginally safer, and the black finish is marginally easier to keep clean.

Ultimately, though, I can't think of a law we could pass that would tell gun manufacturers "don't make guns that are appealing to wannabe Rambos".

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:10 PM

16. first let me say I don't own any military style rifles

I've shot a few and they are lighter and easier to shoot,and more ergonomic.One thing they aren't is more accurate.Not sure how that keeps being passed around.Functionally they are identical to any wood handled *hunting* rifle.

Never found the fascination myself for a gun that costs twice as much for the same or less power but they are more comfortable.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:28 PM

24. The accuracy comes in from fine tuning

Put together an upper for one, with a 24 inch Krieger accuracy barrel. Add a tuned adjustable Timney, or better trigger with a 2 pound or less pull weight, some match grade hand loaded 72+ grain ammo and a good set of match grade sights and you're ready for national competition at Camp Perry ... if the shooter is up to the capabilities of the rifle.

The ability to change uppers with no tools, or pretty much any other part you want to, is part o why they are so popular. The low recoil is attractive to a lot of smaller framed shooters and makes it a popular target rifle for women too.

There are still a few national grade competitors that use an M1A, or even a Garand, but the vast majority of the serious shooters at the 200 and 600 yard line use tuned ARs now.

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Response to DonP (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:35 PM

25. oh well their it can make a difference

I was talking more out of the box stock guns straight from the dealer

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:55 PM

39. That's kind of like running a stock Linux distribution

I'm sure there are people who do it, but the whole point of the platform, in both cases, is customizing it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:18 AM

83. sure but ANY gun can be modified

I can drop a hot aftermarket trigger in my .300 wsm and a nice nikon scope with premium rings and a nice mount and challenge any ar platform at 500 yards.

ANY gun can be fine tuned.My .30-06 has a trigger pull of 2.5 and a sweet 4by12by55 leapold with a nice ribbed bolt.I'll go head to head with any ar platform at 400 yards with it.

The ar isn't any more moddable where it counts than any classic hunting rifle.It may be a bit simpler with the ar but at the end of the day I can tune up any of my rifles as much as any ar platform

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #83)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:16 PM

122. How quickly can you change calibers on your 30-06?

I can fit different caliber uppers on an AR-15 receiver in minutes. Ar-15s are truly modular weapons.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:17 PM

20. Marketing.

The guys marketing Bushmasters are from the same cloth as the marketing geniuses who figured out how to sell dolls to boys by calling them "action figures".

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:50 PM

27. A Honda Accord and a Ford Model T are basically the same too

Except one is a lot easier to use and just better overall. I guess Honda buyers like to pretend they're in a spaceship.

Come on, you don't have to have military fantasies to recognize that the AR is a superior design to traditional rifles. It's easy to use, ergonomic, endlessly configurable and very high quality. If you want a hunting rifle, it can be that. If you want a long distance target rifle, it can be that. If you want to go into battle with it, it can be that, too.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:03 PM

28. When was the last time anyone saw a yung'un driving around in a Buick or Oldsmobile?

 

Appearance, cultural and generational differences contribute a lot to the AR platforms appeal and popularity.

Advertising has something to do with it, but even more so, the entertainment industry (video games, TV and movies), is military style, semi-automatic weapons biggest salesperson.

Couple that with it's light weight, ease of use, reliability, huge aftermarket parts and accessories choices, plentiful and inexpensive ammo (at least it used to be), makes it the sports car of the gun world that even a pauper can afford.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:27 PM

31. "Folding Battle Sights" On The AR-15-Style Rifle, With Three 30-Round Magazines Included.


Consider the sort of personality, the level of maturity, the type of gun purchaser, who feels like a rifle isn't complete without "Folding Battle Sights," and who feels it necessary to have three 30-round magazines on hand.

Our pro-gun friends are desperately trying to sweep such features under the rug and away from any serious discussion, by referring to such things as mere "cosmetics." Don't be taken in by this ruse. "Cosmetics" like this matter a great deal, and are an integral part of the gun problem we have in this country.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:54 PM

38. Folding battle sights are what I learned to shoot on

What's wrong with them?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:58 PM

40. Were You In The Military When You Used Such Sights? (nt)


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Response to Paladin (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:02 PM

43. Yes. They fold so you can use them in daytime or nighttime

If I were going to buy a rifle now (which I'm not) I would want the sights I already know how to use.

I understand the word "battle" is troubling, but that really is just what they're called; it just means you're sighting on a post through an aperture.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #43)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:36 PM

53. In The Military? Yeah, That's What I Figured.


And let's get one thing clear: the word "battle" isn't troubling---it's a gun industry sales pitch, pure and simple. It's one thing to have battle sights and 30-round magazines in the military or in law enforcement applications, where some sort of training and regulation accompanies the utilization of such features. Marketing "battle sights" and multiple, high-cap magazines to the general public is a different matter, entirely. We need detailed background checks, we need an accurate and well-maintained sales records system for every transaction, we need mandatory users' insurance, people will have to start playing soldier with 10-round magazines, there should be severe penalties for failing to comply with any of said provisions---and we need all of this in place yesterday. Put those sorts of measures into effect, and we won't need to resort to banning guns, as far as I'm concerned. Will these steps do away with all future Sandy Hook atrocities? No, of course not, given the gun-addled nature of our country. But it should reduce such incidents significantly. And that's probably the best we can hope for, at this point.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:41 PM

54. I'm down with magazine size limits

I still don't get why you're against those sights.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:20 PM

71. he was also in the military when he drove a manual transmission in a jeep,

or used an entrenching tool to dig a fighting position. Just because something is used by the military, it does not mean that it is a strictly military item. Iron sights, peep sights and folding "battle sights" are interchangeable terminology, much like clips and mags.. It may set some of our teeth on edge to hear them misused, but I blew my nose with a Kleenex today, and bought Pampers for a friends child once.. neither were actual brands. It is merely a term and most know to what they refer.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:58 PM

41. you got it

Coming in second is the venerable Colt LE6920 chambered in 5.5 NATO is as authentic as a semi auto AR-15 gets. Incorporating a 4-position retractable stock, M4 handguards with dual heat shield, flattop upper with removable carry handle, 1-inch twist, chrome lined barrel, and of course, the Colt pony on the receiver. It may look like a basic AR from the outside, but the buttstock is sturdy, and aside from some added optics, I wouldn’t change a thing. You don’t get the fancy free floating quad rail hand guards, but to be honest, I really don’t care. It’s a great rifle to start off with and it wouldn’t take much to upgrade any parts you wish. The core of this weapon is solid, and I wouldn’t scoff if I saw one at the range.



What do you think the top ARs of 2013 will be?

i'll spare you the link, and the nausea. i googled best selling ar-15

poor babies! they need dual hand shields AND free-floating quad hand guards.

they haven't heard of gloves???

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:11 PM

68. Free float tubes are for accuracy.. Not heat dissipation, helping prevent flex on the barrel.

the rate of twist is also important for people deciding on a weapon for long distance or more of CQB.
Chrome lined barrels are important to some, there are arguments over their superiority though.
dissipation, as for for quad rails, some people like to load up their forearms, I am a KISS kind of guy.
To anyone with a modicum of familiarity with the platform you just had a shoulder thing that goes up moment with your attempt to belittle...
"poor babies! they need dual hand shields AND free-floating quad hand guards. "
He stated in your article it had one, not the other.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #68)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:18 AM

91. so what?

To anyone with a modicum of familiarity with the platform you just had a shoulder thing that goes up moment with your attempt to belittle...

and wha? ^^ me no get what mean.

heat shields ONLY purpose would be for a maniac blasting away like rambo, say a mass murderer, perhaps.

a tube for accuracy- why not just get a better quality gun? none of the classic hunting or target rifles have this silly thing.

my point is that assault weapons are like 'glamour guns', and i think they are silly, but also cause many innocent people to get shot dead.

and any maniac can grab one off the internet, kinda blows.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:09 PM

97. "Free floating" a barrel is done on hunting guns for accuracy.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_accuracy_fixes.htm

Free floating the barrel is simple, just trim the wood where it touches the barrel. Leave enough of a gap that two business cards can easily pass between the stock and the barrel. No, this isn’t so large a gap that it will trap small animals.


To anyone with a modicum of familiarity with the platform you just had a shoulder thing that goes up moment with your attempt to belittle...

and wha? ^^ me no get what mean.


Google 'shoulder thing that goes up'- you'll find the video. Rep Carolyn McCarthy, one of the authors of an assault weapons ban, is asked exactly what a heat shield is. She says, "It's a shoulder thing that goes up." (hint, it's not.)

It demonstrates the glaring ignorance of some folks who are pushing gun control.



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Response to X_Digger (Reply #97)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:39 PM

107. You don’t get the fancy free floating quad rail hand guards,

i don't know what those are, don't really care.

but, i looked on amazon.

people hunted with those for HOW LONG before some fool said they were necessary for hunting?

i own a gun, ok- using a silly military style CUSHY gun, oh my poor hands, to hunt is totally lame.

just my opinion- i learned about sportsmanship, i guess my hunting class wsn't NRA-sponsored.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:39 PM

100. No, you can't grab one off the internet.

All internet gun sales are shipped to an FFL so that the NICS can be checked and the 4473 can be filled out.

Heat shields are very handy for some range competitions. It doesn't take many rounds to get a barrel too hot to touch.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #100)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:32 PM

105. maybe in your alternate reality

Investigators placed telephone calls to 125 private sellers who posted gun advertisements on 10 websites in 14 states. The probe found that 77 of those sellers, or 62%, agreed to sell a weapon even after the would-be buyers revealed that they would be unlikely to pass a background check.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204026804577098940155488680.html

***

What if you wanted to, say, arm a 20-person paramilitary group to overthrow a West African government in a Internet-armed coup d'état? Could a band of anonymous weapon mongers prepare me and 19 imaginary compatriots for illegal warfare? If you've got a spare million or so, looks like the answer is yes.

not gonna post that link ^^^

MUCH worse than armslist

***

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/01/obama_s_gun_control_proposals_off_the_book_sellers_react.html
How would gun and ammunition sellers react to President Obama’s proposals to combat gun violence? I decided to find about by asking people who operate out of the so-called “secondary gun market,” where those without federal licenses to distribute weapons ply their trade. About 40 percent of guns reach people via this off-the-books route, including many of the guns that reach young people.

I spoke to three gun sellers who work in and around Chicago. I was prepared for defensive reactions, given the 30-plus legislative recommendations and executive actions on the table. Instead, they were skeptical when I read them Obama’s proposals. One summed up the general sentiment: “Not going to change one thing I do, thank the Lord.”

That response makes sense when one looks closely at gun markets, which are a bit quirky. The three Chicago brokers I spoke with don’t own gun stores or sell over the Internet. They make their money in the illegal, secondary market in three ways: They sell guns directly; they find customers for suburban gun dealers, who pay them a finders’ fee, and who then sell the gun off the books; and they match sellers with gun buyers in alleyway gun shows. Ninety percent of these sales are handguns, as opposed to assault rifles and shotguns.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:05 PM

109. In an attempt to educate, not that you care.

"heat shields ONLY purpose would be for a maniac blasting away like rambo, say a mass murderer, perhaps. "
no, for people running 3 gun competition, or to keep heat off of expensive accessories, or not to get the shit burned out of you after a few rounds to properly zero a weapon. or take down a group of 'yotes. or feral hogs. ARs are almost exclusively polymer and metal, unlike wood, heat shields are necessary to keep you from melting the polymer/plastic handguards and accessories.

I have numerous SBRs, I need a heat shield to properly use them.....Those that are not free-floated of course.

"a tube for accuracy- why not just get a better quality gun? none of the classic hunting or target rifles have this silly thing."
Almost all high end precision firearms are set up as free floating barrels..this is actually yet another example that you are not very educated on actual firearms and their use and design, allow me to point you to Wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-floating_barrel


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Response to SQUEE (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:17 PM

111. no, i really don't care. at all.

plastic guns?

BS

why not buy a good gun and skip all the expensive accessories?

heat shields, blah blah, they're all military guns designed to rip off consumers.

all the other 'accessories' are bundled together with the huge mags that kill dozens.

the nra's fault really, and yours if you buy that crap.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #111)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:29 PM

112. If you don't care, then let me spend my money

on useless weapons, it shouldn't bother you one whit. You should just let it go.. But you cant.. you do care, you want to make decisions, for me, based on fallacy and ignorance. And I say, no and refute your lies and misinformation.
I have several non plastic firearms, I enjoy the shooting sports, and I practice with all my weapons regularly.
Huge mags? really? Because for the AR, in .223, 30 rounds is the standard issue magazine. My 9mm ARs have 32 rounders.. these are standards, I own no 50 or 100 round novelty magazines because I find them silly, in fact my 2 favorite rifles are wood and steel and chambered in 308/7.62 .. with 20 round magazines, ever tried to find a 5 or a 10 round magazine for the FAL?

And I have some good guns, as with most anything beauty and all that...

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 09:17 PM

117. you don't have enough guns already? you haven't stocked up like everybody else?

Because for the AR, in .223, 30 rounds is the standard issue magazine. My 9mm ARs have 32 rounders.. these are standards,

you are using military speak there. because it is a military weapon, of course.

i don't want to know how many guns you have. sounds like plenty.

why can't you understand- nobody is taking your guns away. just preventing ones in the future from being made.

it isn't you i'm worried about, so don't take it so personally.

its just all the criminals and psychos who get guns because laws are way too lax.

you yourself could probably get machine gun if you want (if you don't already). you just need a permit.

honest question- what would you think of putting the weapons on the BAN list under the NFA instead, like automatics, so it would just be harder to get one? instead of totally banned?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #117)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:09 AM

118. Many of my firearms are NFA. And established under a trust

I on the surface have thought it was a doable idea, BUT having waited over 8 months to get back a tax stamp for a suppressor, and dealing with all the issues over transportation as well as the added $200 burden per weapon, I find it unreasonable to be honest,
Now go with a AOW $5 stamp and a cash and carry system through selected FFLs, I would be willing to concede to this, IN RETURN for suppressors and SBRs being included in the same provisions, I am willing to compromise, that means a quid pro quo for giving in to de facto registration. Do you realize the HUGE number of applications that will hit the ATF if we did this.

"why can't you understand- nobody is taking your guns away. just preventing ones in the future from being made"
So my children, and nieces and nephews are not going to be given the freedom I have? I am all about passing down the freedoms I have to the future, hopefully with a better society attached to them.


"you are using military speak there. because it is a military weapon, of course. "
This is lingua franca of firearms, it crosses any .Mil/Civ. boundaries.. in fact most of the military are not that interested in firearms and have a small specific set of ammo they will deal with, only in the civilian community do you run into a large amount of specific verbiage due to the bewildering array of calibers, case lengths and grain loads.. Specificity is key, say in a discussion of 7.62.. there are 3 distinct and popular rounds in that caliber, then you add in .30 cal discussion.. you need to use specific and technical terms, and I totally under stan how to those outside it sounds like mil-speak or even sinister, as most technobabble does.


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Response to SQUEE (Reply #118)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:11 PM

119. i wish google translate did 'gunspeak', but i'll take a 'shot' at this anyhoo

the 1st paragraph, i hope you have a good lawyer.

Do you realize the HUGE number of applications that will hit the ATF if we did this.


to you realize the nra has been porking the batf for, oh, 35 years or so, and they use CARDBOARD BOXES for records.

so, yeah, maybe actually funding and using the batf might be a good idea.

WE WOULDN'T WANT YOU TO BE INCONVENIENCED IN THE SLIGHTEST WHILE BUYING MACHINE GUNS !!!

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/0311-historical-profile.pdf

thet went down ~150 investigators from 2009-2010.

kinda seems their budget is about .5% percent of the nra's.

So my children, and nieces and nephews are not going to be given the freedom I have? I am all about passing down the freedoms I have to the future, hopefully with a better society attached to them.

you have frikkin' machine guns for fuck's sake. there are 30,000+ plus in virginia, 15,000+ in AZ.

and a wait for some form that your own nra's BS is causing is your reason for 'my freedom'?

i don't get it

and I totally under stan how to those outside it sounds like mil-speak or even sinister, as most technobabble does.

there, we can agree.

check this out-
i think the whole AW craze happened because of the 1st gulf war. that's where the interest started, and the gun makers have just run with it because the profits were slowing down.

if the nra had, instead of blocking all gun regs, made AR-type weapons more like your tommy guns as far as regs.

instead of dismantling the batf and blocking gun research, they could have helped make a system that WORKS, like they actually did with the NFA and your tommies.

get it?

we are arguing over the mil/civil boundaries, i guess?

if i was going to 'pass on' something to my kids, i'd want something old-fashioned and COOL, like a rem. .222 or classic 30-.06

but i'm not a gun bunny!




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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #119)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:28 PM

120. I do not own any automatic weapons.

nor do I desire them. But I do not begrudge those that can afford them and the ammo for 'em.
But for what I do have, the legal hoops are exactly the same.
As for a lawyer, yes I have a very good one, I have an iron clad, multi state trust established for which all of my NFA items, and am planning to amend it to include all of my firearms as a bulwark to the back door confiscation that non transference of registered weapons actually is. Slow and deliberate disarmament.
I do have very cool and old fashioned firearms, I also have newer and just as "cool" weapons.
An Ishapore 2A1, My SVT 38 and 40 were used to defeat the Wehrmacht, as well as a decently low number M1 Garand. AN SKS that hasnt been Tapco'd to death, an old and rather boring "retro M16" AR slab side, and my Winchester '76 in .40-60 my Father left to me, these almost never come out as they are much more collectors items than weapons, and pieces of history.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #120)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:58 PM

121. well, THAT'S a relief...

Slow and deliberate disarmament.

i din't realize they were doing away with the NFA, too, you'd better get an old missile silo for everything!

and keep that 'backdoor' booby trapped!

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #121)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:24 PM

126. What else would you call a non transferable registration scheme.

As all the owners die off, the firearms would become illegal if not allowed for transfer..
I meet and answer all your points with honest and factual data, you have no rebuttal so you rely on smileys and snark. This is a huge reason many gun owners do not want to have a dialog, I realize others read this see the facts and reason many have applied and become educated.
I get a kick out of the fact that the greatest threat to gun grabbers and banners is there own ignorance and lack of reasoned ideas.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:27 PM

51. Folding Battle Sights = BUIS

 

Back Up Iron Sight.

With the exception of long range shooters, traditional glass optics are a rarity on the AR platform.
In situations where optics are desired, reflex type optical devices (Trijicon, EoTech, Aimpoint), are the norm. These type of scopes require a power source... a battery.
The purpose of a BUIS is to allow the shooter the ability to accurately aim the rifle if the primary optic fails.
Nothing evil or nefarious about it.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:34 PM

52. I haven't heard anyone claim that high-capacity magazines are cosmetic.

People use the term "cosmetic" to illustrate that the features which are being banned are not related to the function of the rifle. For example Senator Feinstein's proposal defines an assault weapon a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine and any of the following features: pistol grip; forward grip; folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; grenade launcher or rocket launcher; barrel shroud; or threaded barrel. So, a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine, but none of these features is not an assault weapon.

How do any of these features make a rifle more dangerous? I can see how a collapsable stock would be easier to conceal and might be outlawed for that reason, the same way sawed off shotguns are. In fact, I think there's probably a pretty good argument for banning collapsable stocks across the board...that actually addresses a real harm. But does a pistol grip make a rifle more dangerous? A forward grip? I'll skip grenade launchers and rocket launchers since I believe those are practically illegal anyway (and if not, good luck finding rockets for your rocket launcher).

Remember: Connecticut has an assault weapons ban. One of the strictest in the nation. The AR-15 that Lanza used at Sandy Hook was not an assault weapon, as defined by CT law (as well as the 1994 federal ban upon which the CT law was based). The reason -- it lacks the features that define an assault weapon. Given that, do these cosmetic features really matter?

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Response to Paladin (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:10 PM

67. Do you propose the outlawing of Picatinny rails, one-size-fits-all barrel shrouds, etc.?

Because some enterprising merchant will order plain jane semi-auto carbines ready-made for these items. Go back a few decades and you will see the advent of factory "drill & tapped" scope mount sights. In other words, everyday folks could mount a telescopic hunting scope on pre-drilled holes and not have to visit the local smith to have it done. The same for cheap slip on boots for recoil. The same for sling mounts.

You are chasing a ghost which morphs faster than the law can.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:41 PM

55. These are like big exhaust pipes, wings, giant tires, and huge suspension lifts

They have little to nothing to do with real world functional improvements.

They are sold in droves mainly because they look cool.

Ironically the way they look is one of the biggest reasons some people also want to ban them.

The people who get mad at these tricked out rifles because of the image they perceive it presents are no better than the people who get mad at my Prius because of the image they perceive it presents.

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Response to thetonka (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:43 PM

56. Didn't say ban anything. Just opining about why so many want this over that. nt

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:45 PM

58. Just go to a gun store and watch yahoos touch, fondle and drool over the dang things.

That bushmaster ad captures it perfectly.

Just remember, there are "assault" handguns that turn the Zimmermans of our society into stalkers and killers. Without his gun, Zimmie would have remained in his car with doors locked.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:03 PM

65. I've been to plenty of gun shows,

 

I've been to plenty of gun stores over the course of my life, and I've yet to see anyone "touch, fondle and drool" over any gun.
Your embellishment is strong.

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Response to nick of time (Reply #65)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:08 PM

66. Members of gun culture don't usually recognize such bad behaviour in other cultist.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:22 PM

72. I'm not part of your so called gun culture,

 

and I've yet to see anyone drooling over any gun.
If you're so against guns, then why do you spend so much time in gun stores?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:15 PM

69. Spend a lot of time in gunstores?

Weapons dont turn anyone, you are the one giving talismanic ju-ju to a piece of steel and plastic, and we are the cultists?

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:18 PM

70. Because it's a better rifle?

 

That silly looking AR just needs cruise control and a cup holder bolted on and it's complete.
That notwithstanding, the AR type rifles are far superior to conventional hunting type rifles for defense purposes.

They are far easier to use and their lightweight bullets have quite a lot less power than traditional deer hunting cartridges.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:32 PM

76. Bingo. Much of it is emotional. Like when you see that shiny new car on the dealers lot.

Or that brand new model xxx with feature xyz of that item that you love to collect or have a weakness for. Or those extra menthol extra king size suped up cancer sticks you smoke.

Honestly, guns are just like anything else in that regard. And manufacturers market to it just like anything else.

Not. Hard. To. Understand. So why is that so... weird?

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:52 PM

77. Oh goody! More "Democraticgunsaround." n/t

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:56 PM

78. The 742 is too long in the stock

And only fits me properly. Our ARs fit everyone in the family thanks to the same adjustable stock.

I never cared for the AR platform until I built one. Now it's hard to stop they're so much fun. I really only need one more in a hunting caliber.

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Response to ileus (Reply #78)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:22 AM

93. So you admit the .223 AR15 is not a "hunting caliber" gun.

Thank you.

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Response to jpak (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:34 AM

94. I admit you are having some reading

 

comprehension issues.
I said the bullets have far less power than traditional deer hunting cartridges.

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Response to rbuchanan (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:16 PM

98. You have multiple user names?

Who knew?

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Response to jpak (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:36 AM

95. Not for big game, no,

 

but it is the ideal weapon and caliber for varmit control. I have an AR-15 I use on my farm for coyote and fox control when they raid my chickens and ducks, but I wouldn't use it for deer hunting.

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Response to nick of time (Reply #95)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:38 PM

106. Not for big game? The M-16A1 was designed and sold to the Military to take down

225 pound human beings. How big does game have to be? Works pretty good on theater goers, firemen, teachers and, of course, small game aka first graders.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #106)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:45 PM

108. Most states outlaw the use of the .223 round for deer hunting

 

because it's not big enough to ensure a quick and humane kill.
For use against varmits like coyotes and foxes, it's the ideal weapon, lightweight, ergonomically suited, accurate.
Like I said, I use mine for killing coyotes and foxes that raid my chickens and ducks.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #106)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:41 PM

123. The vast majority of deer hunting is with the more powerful .30-06 round

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #123)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:04 PM

124. So all the posters in this thread who cite hunting as a reason to own an AR, the vast majority

of which are .223, are either lying or using the wrong gun?

I personally use either a 7.63x54 or a 7.5x55.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #124)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:21 PM

125. The .223 is fine for smaller game

the only thing unreasonable about the AR-15 is the amount of ammunition it can carry. It's not like it uses some special high powered round, people have hunted with .223's forever.

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #125)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:51 PM

127. So what you're saying is that since the late '60s the DOD has been outfitting soldiers to

fight small game? Is that what you are goin' with? Or is it your contention that 200 pound human beings are small game?

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #127)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:17 PM

128. Um...no. What exactly are you trying to say?

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #128)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:42 PM

129. I'm trying to say that the .223 round fired by the AR type guns is a deadly round

as opposed to being suitable only for small game and not a very effective round for anything else. The implication is that the AR type guns aren't really dangerous, after all they're banned for hunting in some states (although there many posts up-thread that praise their capability as hunting guns) so they can't be THAT dangerous.

I'm kinda tired of the apologists is all.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #129)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:41 PM

130. You're right it is deadly

My point wasn't that it isn't deadly, it was that AR types are no more powerful than other rifles commonly used in hunting. Now that doesn't I mean don't ownership shouldn't more be tightly regulated.

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Response to jpak (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:36 PM

113. Turkey, coyotes, crows.

Deer in WV.

But you can buy many different hunting caliber uppers. I plan on getting a 6.8 upper before next season this will allow hunting in Virginia.

Of course the AR platform makes for a great self defense firearm.

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Response to ileus (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:46 PM

115. Not for turkey in Maine and other states

Shotguns only.

And only idiots shoot crows.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #115)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 08:08 PM

116. I don't live in Maine.

And I forgot groundhogs to go along with the crows, coyotes and other varmints.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:30 AM

84. I don't need to be an AR-15 totin', mancard ownin' douche in order to tell if I'm a man ...

all I need to do is look inside my pants.

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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:53 AM

86. For me keeping and bearing arms is more about self-reliance more than machismo.


That and I find recreational and competitive shooting with any firearm enjoyable.

But why the AR15 over the traditional semi-auto hunting rifle?

I think one of my main reasons is the vast array of accessories and modifications one can easily make to the AR15. The parts and accessories are literally battle proven in many cases. While I'll probably never have to put my ARs through their paces in a war setting it is nice to know things are less likely to break should I need it in a self-defense situation.

Another reason is that the ergonomics really do make shooting it more enjoyable. There has been progress made in human factors in every area of human-machine interactions. Firearms are no different.



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Response to flamin lib (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:08 AM

89. Here's what I've observed:

Buying a regular gun for security purposes leads to increased anxiety as the owner will automatically start thinking about different scenarios and what role (if any) the gun would play in each scenario. Going through the scenarios, they quickly see that the gun is only useful in one or two specific situations, which leads them to either buy more guns for more locations around the house, or buy more powerful guns as they try to address everything that could happen (one attacker vs three, etc.). In extreme cases, the person becomes a 24-7 gun wearer and owns a small arsenal which includes assault weapons. And yes, once the person finally feels safe, it does change his/her attitude. In some ways, I think the act of buying a gun for self defense either creates or exasperates mental illness.

Also, once someone has built up that much anxiety and imagined everything that could go wrong, the last thing he'll want to do is simply hand over his weapons. He imagines that he'll be attacked as soon as he's unarmed.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #89)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:41 PM

114. Agree

guns are mostly a symbol of security. They do not provide security.

But once someone has bonded with his gun and feels "safer" because of it, it's hard to convince them that they are wrong.

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