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Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:53 AM

So, Lie detector test for pain????

I have no problem with a lie detector test to get opiates. They already invade my body with piss test. Doctors are scared to write a prescription, especially for a person with chronic pain who needs treatment for life. Why do people who are truly in pain have to suffer because of the few addicts that don't need pills. The actual urine test are easy to beat, but not so much a lie detector. It would at least ease a doctors suspistion, they all suspect a pill seeker at first anyway. You can't tell me that modern science can't find a way to tell if the person is an addict or in pain. Maybe they don't want to.

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply So, Lie detector test for pain???? (Original post)
sorefeet Jan 2013 OP
bettyellen Jan 2013 #1
sorefeet Jan 2013 #5
bettyellen Jan 2013 #7
yardwork Jan 2013 #24
ananda Jan 2013 #27
awoke_in_2003 Jan 2013 #2
intheflow Jan 2013 #10
Mosby Jan 2013 #17
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #3
unblock Jan 2013 #4
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #6
sorefeet Jan 2013 #8
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #9
spanone Jan 2013 #11
TheManInTheMac Jan 2013 #12
ret5hd Jan 2013 #26
cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #13
cali Jan 2013 #14
one_voice Jan 2013 #16
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #20
one_voice Jan 2013 #21
REP Jan 2013 #28
cali Jan 2013 #22
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #15
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #18
seaglass Jan 2013 #19
cbayer Jan 2013 #23
Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #25
REP Jan 2013 #29

Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 AM

1. doesn't stress throw off the results?

if people taking pain meds resulted in social violence like meth or guns, i could see it.
but this is to save insurance companies money by not providing meds. let's not help them screw people.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:05 PM

5. There is a guy here dying

of metastisised cancer who is only using whiskey and meth because he knows he is dying, no treatment. But some girl is beside herself because he won't at least go get pain pills so he can sell them. So make one of the questions "are you going to sell the pills".

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Response to sorefeet (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:16 PM

7. again. what societal problems are a few opiate addicts causing that alcoholics aren't causing worse?

and meth heads, etc. i don't see what this is solving. this stuff is driven to keep costs down for insurance companies , and it punishes those who truly need the meds.
people steal or share xanax all the time too, the world is not a perfect place.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:33 PM

24. +1. Our laws toward people who use illegal drugs are punitive

but the country is awash in prescription drugs and alcohol. The difference is profit motive. People making money off the legal drugs. People making money off the prisons.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:55 PM

27. What about big pharma?

I would think they would be against this in a huge way.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 AM

2. A person in great pain...

would likely fail a lie detector test.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:35 PM

10. True! Lie detector tests are notoriously poor for determining the truth.

They rely on the assumption that liars will have increased heart rates or show other physical signs of "lying." However, some liars can lie without showing any stress, some people believe the lies they are telling so pass, and some people have other physical factors that would indicate a lie but are completely unrelated to the test being given. Pain would certainly fall under that last heading. FFS, this is why they're inadmissible in court! Ridiculous that a doctor's office would consider doing this!

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Response to intheflow (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:25 PM

17. "lie detectors" are pseudoscience

It's been discredited time and time again but people (and the media) are too stupid to give up this cherished belief.

PS - there is no such thing as "truth serum" either.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:02 PM

3. Being addicted to pain killers does not mean someone is not suffering from chronic pain.

The way we describe our pain is subjective. What I may call minor or bearable, someone else may call debilitating. A doctor has to try to determine whether a patient would be better off dealing with the pain, or the addiction.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:03 PM

4. yeah, actually, i can tell you that modern science can't tell if the person is an addict or in pain.

at least not with reasonable enough accuracy.


terrible, terrible idea, nevermind that lie detectors simply aren't very accurate.

pain comes in many, many forms and so it's hard to even conceive of a simple test that would apply to all forms.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:13 PM

6. Not everyone reacts the same way to any given drug

For instance Ritalin is a stimulant, speed if you will, give it to a normal child and they will be bouncing off the walls, give it to a child that's actually ADHD and it will calm them down.

Listen to the long list of side effects when they push drugs in TV commercials, some people will see none of the side effects, some will be minimally effected and some few will have the most severe side effects up to and including death.

How would you calibrate a lie detector test for someone in severe pain? Those machines are about detecting stress and anyone in severe pain is going to also be severely stressed.

Ever crush your finger hard enough to lose the nail? Now imagine taking a lie detector test immediately after you smashed your finger.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:19 PM

8. Just like any job

you need a lie detector for, I just want to see if the person IS lying, not how much he is lying or how much pain they are in. A doctor should be able to identify some of it by the type of disease

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Response to sorefeet (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:28 PM

9. How would you tell someone wasn't lying if they were in severe pain?

The point being that pain will stress someone enough to make the lie detector useless because those units work on measuring stress, if your stress level is already high (such as from extreme pain) then the machine does not work, there's no way to get a baseline reading free of stress.







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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:36 PM

11. ridiculous.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:13 PM

12. I have no idea the context behind this post is, but there's an old trick

to throw off lie detectors by putting a tack in your shoe. You bear down on it when you answer truthfully which will cause stress to increase. I doubt it works anymore. Probably never worked in the first place. Putting aside the constitutionality of lie detectors, they are pretty much infallible.

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Response to TheManInTheMac (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:52 PM

26. Lie detectors are pretty much infallible????

Are you sure you meant to say that?

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:16 PM

13. Another option is caring less whether people 'deserve' drugs

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:19 PM

14. stupid idea.

And I say that as someone with Complex Regional Pain Syndrome who would surely pass a lie detector test regarding the pain I live with.

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Response to cali (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:24 PM

16. I wish they had left the...

name alone. What was wrong with RSD? I still call it RSD. Complex Regional Pain Syndrome--seems like they're making it less than what it is.

I was diagnosed in '93.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:30 PM

20. I don't know about the name but at least they are now focusing on the complexity of pain

My husband has glaucoma and migraines. It was his migraine doctor that finally came up with a cocktail of medications to help. Before he pretty much avoided light all together which meant he spent almost all of his time in the house with the lights dimmed. He manages his glaucoma with medical marijuana.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:45 PM

21. I'm sorry your husband has to live with that...

I have chronic migraines--I've had 3 fractured skulls the migraines are a result. I take medication to help with them. I would love to wake up just one day without a headache. It's been so long since I've had that....

Best to your husband!

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Response to one_voice (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:29 PM

28. Mine weren't quite that bad; I'd get about 3 days a month without a full-blown migraine

I'm now taking Elavil and Topamax daily to prevent them, and my Topamax does has had to be doubled a couple times, but now I only have about 3 days a month with a migraine. Hope you find something that works for you, too.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:25 PM

22. I agree. And man, you have my deepest sympathies

I can't imagine living with this for 20 years.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:22 PM

15. In our state doctors are only allowed to dispense a certain amount of pain killers and then

they have to refer you to a pain specialist doctor who are very good at managing pain and addictions to pain medications.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:27 PM

18. Polygraphs, aka "lie detectors" are nothing but woo.

Far too many false-negatives and false-positives. You get about the same accuracy from flipping a coin.

And I might mention that Aldrich Ames, the intelligence officer that turned out to be a Soviet spy, who gave the CIA one of its biggest pantsings in history, passed two polygraph exams while he was actively spying for the Soviets.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)


Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:30 PM

23. The number of people addicted to prescribed opiates (and other prescribed drugs)

is not insignificant. It's a massive problem that has physicians stuck in the middle.

As a consequence, physicians have come under increasing scrutiny and that is the major reason for their reluctance to prescribe.

While I don't think a lie detector test is the answer, there is no good way of assessing pain complaints other than patient reports.

I think, however, physicians in particular would welcome programs, systems or tests that could give them valid pain measurements and see no advantage to not wanting that.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:34 PM

25. Lie detectors are the biggest scam yet.

And people use drugs to show they are telling the truth by calming down.
People is pain will always come up saying they are lying.

I remember studying those things in non human communication. They are to unreliable.

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Response to sorefeet (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:32 PM

29. I'm pretty sure they could look at my X-rays, MRIs, biopsies and surgical notes

I have immune-mediated polyarthritis and I also have kidney disease, meaning I can't take NSAIDs. I can take only narcotic painkillers if I want to avoid further decline in my kidney function.

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