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Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:33 AM

The difference between urban and rural people is...

... nothing.

What differentiates us are our experiences. Urban (and suburban) people generally tend to be exposed to different people, different cultures and more cultural history. Rural people are more locally interdependent, and have a broader set of skills cultivated through necessity.



A rural person must learn to keep his or her house, family, car and community running because there's no one to fall back on. Even if money was plentiful (in rural areas it is generally not) then there's no tradesman nearby to fix whatever is broken.

Urban people have a large collective infrastructure (public and private) to draw upon to fulfill these needs. The time that they don't spend "baking bread and fixing tractors" can be spent at school or the library or the museum.

If this thesis is accurate, urban people are more skills illiterate, and rural people are more culturally illiterate. Both forms of illiteracy are liabilities, but neither form of illiteracy is more or less "stupid" than the other.

It is abundantly apparent that the more prominent gap at DU is the ability for urban people to understand the implications of rural self-reliance. For the same reason we are not close to the museum, we are also not close to the police. If a stranger with ill-intent wanders onto the property, the cops aren't just a phone call away, they are a phone (land line, no cell service here) call and 30 minutes away.

For the same reasons that I don't want anyone taking my chainsaw, tractor or wrenches away, I don't want anyone taking my guns away.

... not because I love them, (In a sense, I hate all of them because they represent unpleasant things) but because I need them - even if I never have to use them.

Where I live, I AM the primary local mechanic, equipment operator, plumber, electrician, carpenter, accountant, librarian, repairman, EMT and cop.

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Arrow 139 replies Author Time Post
Reply The difference between urban and rural people is... (Original post)
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 OP
justiceischeap Jan 2013 #1
nick of time Jan 2013 #2
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #13
Taverner Jan 2013 #41
kwassa Jan 2013 #96
bettyellen Jan 2013 #3
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #36
bettyellen Jan 2013 #40
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #4
bvar22 Jan 2013 #15
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #34
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #42
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #46
bvar22 Jan 2013 #65
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #71
bvar22 Jan 2013 #94
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #98
Ghost in the Machine Jan 2013 #113
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #114
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #125
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #135
frazzled Jan 2013 #5
JVS Jan 2013 #28
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #43
CreekDog Jan 2013 #84
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #88
hfojvt Jan 2013 #87
just1voice Jan 2013 #101
Horse with no Name Jan 2013 #6
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #44
riqster Jan 2013 #47
2naSalit Jan 2013 #60
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #66
2naSalit Jan 2013 #70
L0oniX Jan 2013 #7
Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #8
L0oniX Jan 2013 #12
bettyellen Jan 2013 #24
sadbear Jan 2013 #9
panader0 Jan 2013 #10
oldbanjo Jan 2013 #58
PotatoChip Jan 2013 #105
zabet Jan 2013 #116
PotatoChip Jan 2013 #120
CTyankee Jan 2013 #112
RebelOne Jan 2013 #129
mrsadm Jan 2013 #11
loli phabay Jan 2013 #16
shraby Jan 2013 #59
loli phabay Jan 2013 #63
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #23
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #35
kwolf68 Jan 2013 #14
Lex Jan 2013 #21
bettyellen Jan 2013 #26
Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #90
Jimbo S Jan 2013 #95
NoGOPZone Jan 2013 #17
ret5hd Jan 2013 #18
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #48
hedgehog Jan 2013 #19
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #20
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #50
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #100
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #126
Viva_La_Revolution Jan 2013 #22
Uncle Joe Jan 2013 #25
justiceischeap Jan 2013 #27
oldbanjo Jan 2013 #64
justiceischeap Jan 2013 #69
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #72
justiceischeap Jan 2013 #76
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #80
Botany Jan 2013 #29
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #54
patrice Jan 2013 #30
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #78
patrice Jan 2013 #81
cali Jan 2013 #31
barbtries Jan 2013 #32
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #57
barbtries Jan 2013 #117
bvar22 Jan 2013 #75
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #102
1-Old-Man Jan 2013 #33
Scuba Jan 2013 #37
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #38
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #73
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #91
JoeyT Jan 2013 #39
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #56
judesedit Jan 2013 #45
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #61
msongs Jan 2013 #49
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #51
bvar22 Jan 2013 #52
Iggo Jan 2013 #53
ecstatic Jan 2013 #55
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #62
ecstatic Jan 2013 #68
datasuspect Jan 2013 #67
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #79
antigone382 Jan 2013 #92
lark Jan 2013 #74
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #83
CreekDog Jan 2013 #77
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #82
bvar22 Jan 2013 #107
CreekDog Jan 2013 #108
bvar22 Jan 2013 #109
CreekDog Jan 2013 #111
bvar22 Jan 2013 #119
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #115
truedelphi Jan 2013 #85
Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #89
truedelphi Jan 2013 #136
Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #138
upaloopa Jan 2013 #86
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #93
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #103
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #106
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #97
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #104
rickford66 Jan 2013 #99
PufPuf23 Jan 2013 #110
Robb Jan 2013 #118
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #121
Robb Jan 2013 #122
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #123
Robb Jan 2013 #124
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #127
Robb Jan 2013 #128
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #130
Robb Jan 2013 #132
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #134
OnionPatch Jan 2013 #131
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #133
OnionPatch Jan 2013 #139
FarCenter Jan 2013 #137

Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:35 AM

1. Your statement is incorrect. The difference between urban and rural people is

the length we have to drive/commute to get to things. Duh!

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:39 AM

2. So true.

 

It takes me 10 minutes just to get from my farmhouse to the main highway and then another 20 minutes to get to town.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:05 PM

13. I live in a rural area, but work in a city.

The drive in isn't bad, but it does suck driving 8 miles to a grocery store. Oh well. I love the peace and quiet of rural life.

I also love nature. I grow gardens, feed birds with elaborate feeders, and go hiking a lot.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:23 PM

41. No, the main difference is ketchup

 

Yep, in the cities they use ketchup

Out in the rural areas, they wouldn't touch that stuff and instead eat catsup.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:49 PM

96. Urban drives can take forever ... the length of TIME can be greater.

although only a few miles are traversed.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:41 AM

3. conclusion: country folk are ignorant and feel helpless around those from different cultures while

urbanites are ignorant and helpless around their cars and appliances.
Did you really just say that? It appears so.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:01 PM

36. "Simplify as much as possible and no further" - Albert Einstein. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:21 PM

40. it's all in your post, jeff. you chose to highlight the positive, but the negative was drawn from

your OP. word for word from your handy little chart.
if you don't like it, maybe it's because the negatives you point out can have an ugly side? and I'm not talking about hiring repairmen.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:46 AM

4. Too bad you chose to destroy

what could have been a worthwhile discussion with the perfectly ridiculous

For the same reasons that I don't want anyone taking my chainsaw, tractor or wrenches away, I don't want anyone taking my guns away.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:10 PM

15. Would you please expand your position.

I see nothing ridiculous.
The OP did a good job supporting his reasoning and conclusions.

You should do so too if you are going to attack him.

What do you find "ridiculous", and why.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:57 PM

34. No one is coming to grab his guns...

Nor yours. The moment someone decides to take the debate to the extremes, the debate becomes ridiculous. Rural Americans seem to only appreciate that they 'need' guns, with no appreciation of the fact that because they resist any and all attempts to keep those guns out of the hands of criminals and crazies, they end up in our cities and suburbs where they are used to hunt people...not deer, turkeys or varmints.

I live in Palm Beach County, FL, where every single year we lose children, some as young as 2, to gun violence. Bullets from guns in the hands of gang members and drug dealers come flying through windows to kill them. Or as they are walking home from the school bus stop, caught in a cross-fire. Mandatory registration would go a long way to curbing this...eventually. Would it end gun violence the week after instituted, no of course not...but 10 years down the road it would go a long way toward reducing the number of gun deaths...20 years out, even fewer gun deaths.

Less than 30% of the population lives in rural America...and that percentage is shrinking as people move and suburbs expand. A continued refusal to enter into reasonable measures to ensure gun safety, will eventually translate into the very thing that no reasonable person today wants...a ban on all guns. Not in my lifetime, perhaps not in yours...but eventually. That's what happens when the discussion is carried on at the extremes and no middle ground is ever found....One extreme or the other eventually wins, and demographics are stacking up against guns.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:29 PM

42. The risk of anyone realistically taking away guns is close to zero.

Mostly because most people don't want that outcome.

But the fact remains, I don't want that outcome either. Understanding how to frame a useful gun control discussion to best effect in a democracy requires understanding why people hold the views they do. People like me own guns out of perceived necessity, whether that necessity is real is a different question, one that the person holding the views is arguably in a better position to know.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:38 PM

46. There are many, many more voices

coming from the 'gun control' crowd saying, "we don't want to take your guns, we know you need and like them"...than voices saying, "We understand your problems in the cities and suburbs and want to help you solve them" You didn't offer that voice, I might add.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:24 PM

65. Ah, I see what your problem is.

You are attacking a Strawman.
Please cite where the OP expresses a fear that somebody is coming to take his guns.

As I read it,
he was expanding the premise delivered yesterday by President Obama that there is a difference between guns in the city and guns in the rural areas, and that those differences need to be accounted for when designing legislation concerning the regulation of the ownership and use of guns.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022269308
I agree with President Obama and the OP.
You, of course, are entitled to your opinion,
but you can't call the OP "ridiculous" without calling President Obama ridiculous too.

I also believe in community standards,
and if your community wants to outlaw all guns, more power to you.
Even in the old, wild West,
some towns required visitors to turn in their guns at the local Sheriff's Office.
You could do that in your community.

But if you favor passing laws that punish those in rural communities who pose no threat to you and yours,
well, that is kinda like Bush-the-Lesser invading the wrong country,
don't you think?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #65)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:36 PM

71. Right from his OP...

For the same reasons that I don't want anyone taking my chainsaw, tractor or wrenches away, I don't want anyone taking my guns away.


The problem with "my" community doing something that "your" community doesn't, is that you have no way of keeping your guns out of my community.

You make a straw dog argument every time you talk about "banning" guns...only the most extreme talk about banning.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:32 PM

94. The only thing I have to say about "Banning Guns"..

...is that it would be stupid to try,
and unhelpful, ignorant, even counter productive to advocate for the banning of guns.
I'm glad we can agree on this.

I had to laugh at this one:
With a load of self-righteous indignation,
you said: "you have no way of keeping your guns out of my community."
Is that a big problem in Palm Beach?
...rural rednecks rolling into town in pick ups, shooting up Main Street in a drunken Free for All?
Thanks for the Warning.
I better stay our here in The Woods where it is safe.

Keeping guns out of YOUR community is YOUR problem.
Not mine.
That is like blaming South America because YOUR kid gets hooked on cocaine.
The solution to YOUR problem lies much closer to home.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #94)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:56 PM

98. Palm Beach is a barrier island...

right across a bridge from West Palm Beach, where gun violence is indeed a problem. If you won't register your guns, if you won't prevent any moron, criminal or crazy from buying them, how am I supposed to keep them out of my community? The issue is not 'rednecks' shooting up the city, the issue is easily accessible guns because you don't want to register your weapons.

Yes it is my problem, and if you won't cooperate, eventually people like me, or my children, will decide the only recourse is to ban guns...Seems like a pretty stupid position for a gun lover to hold. it will happen...So is that the legacy you want to leave for your children and grandchildren? No guns, anywhere, anytime? Remember, 80 years after the framers said slavery was legal, the country fought a war over it...and ended chattel slavery in the US. Women got the right to vote...lot's of things have changed already...And we have had one amendment overturned by another...the second could go the same way.

Another false equivalence....a person chooses to use cocaine...very few choose to be shot, suicides being the exception.

Nice try, but no cigar.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #98)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:30 AM

113. "very few choose to be shot, suicides being the exception." Not quite true....

Once one decides to pursue a career of being a criminal, whether it be a drug dealer, burgler, bank robber, mugger, home invader, etc., they *know* there is a risk of one day choosing the wrong person to mug, wrong store to rob, wrong home to break into or invade, wrong person to rip off during a drug deal and they are aware that things can go wrong in a hurry, and *THEY* could be the one on the wrong side of a gun and get shot. It's just part of the lifestyle and a hazard of the job....

Let's just sat I know from firsthand experience and leave it at that please... ok? Thank you for understsnding..

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 09:46 AM

114. As much of our gun violemce is committed by

teenagers (a recently arrested 13-year old is just one example) who really don't "get" the concept of their own mortality, I must disagree...somewhat. Also, being aware of the risks does not equate to 'choosing' to get shot. I may be aware of the risks of getting cancer due to smoking, but I won't get out of bed one day and say...'today I want to develop a cancer'

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #71)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:13 PM

125. You should check out DU sometime. Seen some folks there wanting to take guns away

And most likely those few folks there calling for that are who the OP was addressing.

As far as keeping guns out of your community, what laws that we do not already have (many of which may not be being enforced) do you think should be added?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:49 PM

135. I have little patiences with the extremists on either side.

I don't think banning the Bushmaster AR-15, or other guns like it, is what is needed. I do think we need a national registry of all guns owned, bought and sold. I think we need universal background checks. I think we need to ban sales at gun shows. Go to the show, see what you like but you have to go to a licensed dealer to purchase it. I would ban internet sales, unless it can be proven that the sellers will perform thorough background checks, before shipping and report all sales.... I would end same day transactions...no thorough background check can be completed within a few hours. I think we need to enforce, nationwide, inventories of dealers. I would make gun safes mandatory if you own more than one hand gun and I would make any gun owner liable if a crime is committed with their gun and the gun had not been previously reported as stolen. If you live in rural America, you need a gun safe only if you own more than one hand gun and more than two 'long' guns. First time gun buyers would be required to prove they have completed a course in gun safety from either the local police department or a licensed instructor. I would force the congress to fund the ATF...one of the reasons current laws are so poorly enforced is that the NRA and its lobbyists have convinced too many members of congress to vote down funding for the agency...it is woefully understaffed and under funded.

Then we need to address the issues of mental health...it should not be so difficult to obtain treatment for someone who is displaying psychopathic or sociopathic behavior. The root cause of these mass murders is mental illness. We need people trained to recognize the symptoms.

None of these things will reverse gun violence overnight. They will, however, reduce it over the next decade and drastically reduce it over the next 2 decades.

I believe any sane, non-criminal adult American has the right to as many guns as they want, but those rights carry responsibilities.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:48 AM

5. The main difference is that urban people represent 86% of the population

and rural people 16%. This according to the 2010 census, which defines urban and rural as follows:


For the 2010 Census, an urban area will comprise a densely settled core of census tracts and/or census blocks that meet minimum population density requirements, along with adjacent territory containing non-residential urban land uses as well as territory with low population density included to link outlying densely settled territory with the densely settled core. To qualify as an urban area, the territory identified according to criteria must encompass at least 2,500 people, at least 1,500 of which reside outside institutional group quarters. The Census Bureau identifies two types of urban areas:

Urbanized Areas (UAs) of 50,000 or more people;
Urban Clusters (UCs) of at least 2,500 and less than 50,000 people.

“Rural” encompasses all population, housing, and territory not included within an urban area.


For what it's worth, the rural population was something like 72% in 1910. So there's been a huge and steady decrease over the past century.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:33 PM

28. 102%

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Response to frazzled (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:30 PM

43. And yet, we own 60% of the Senators. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #43)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:57 PM

84. and that's undemocratic

the system is giving a largely rural white population veto power over the far less white urban population where most of its voters live.

we should talk about that, talk about that unfairness a lot.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #84)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:00 PM

88. Good luck with your second constitutional convention.

I think you should definitely pursue this great idea.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:00 PM

87. does that make Hand County, SD an urban area?

Hand County has 3,241 people so more than 2,500 The big county seat of Miller has 1,241 people.

That's urban?

Or how about the urban metropolis of Milbank, SD - 3,203 people. More than 2,500 in Grant County with 7,101 people.

The difference between those places, and a real urban area like Kansas City is

1. In Miller and Milbank everyone pretty much knows everybody else, or they feel like they do.
2. In Miller and Milbank and even in neighboring Watertown or Huron (my home town) or Pierre there is maybe one homicide every five years. In Kansas City there are two or three every week.

My rural cousins from Upstate New York used to call us City Slickers, but heck, even Huron, which once was the 4th largest city in SD and is still in the top 15, is not really an "urban" area. It is a small town. And many small towns are more like rural areas than they are like urban ones.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:15 PM

101. Excellent point

 

It's why the recent repug gerrymandering attempts to change the electoral college are so anti-democracy.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:49 AM

6. Speaking for myself

I can fix a tractor, weld, do electrical work, construction, and read Shakespeare at the same time while simultaneously baking bread.

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:33 PM

44. The reading shakespeare part trips me up. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:44 PM

47. Audiobooks! :-)

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:12 PM

60. I will have to speak up here

I find that your assumption that rural folk are illiterate is stereotyping from a long time ago. I live out in the way out there countryside, I'm 100 miles from the nearest place where I can go shopping or access healthcare. I have a couple college degrees as do many of my neighbors and their children. Many of us are also pretty well informed about the national political scene whether we have the same opinions of them or not. There just aren't as many illiterates out here as you seem to imagine, but there are some terribly right-wing opinions that makes one question what makes them feel the way they do. It isn't illiteracy that makes the difference in political affiliation, it's that there just aren't so many who are feeling included in the process due to proximity. i also operate heavy equipment, hike, ski, study wildlife, bake bread and make my own pasta... I also eat and share a wide variety of ethnic cuisine with my neighbors and friends out here. And we trade and discuss books (OMG!!) regularly.

I would offer that there are probably far more "illiterates" in the urban environment than in the rural, those folks seem just as inclined to make assumptions about "the other" as they claim "the others" do of them and the world at large. there is a lack of ethnic diversity in most rural places but it doesn't mean that we are dumbfounded when we encounter someone of a different cultural or ethnic background.... geezelouise!

The biggest difference between rural and urban is basically proximity to goods and services.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:27 PM

66. In the same way that city folk are blind to the infrastructure that supports them...

... I think us rural folks are blind to the cultural richness, variety and diversity that urban people live in.

And I'm not talking about "illiteracy" (in the sense you are using the word) or stupidity. But it is ignorance, and many of my neighbors are "dumbfounded" when they meet someone of a different cultural or ethnic background - for the same reason that some urban people are dumbfounded when faced with a problem that "only an expert" can solve.

That said, I wouldn't presume that my rural knowledge should guide policies on urban renewal or public transportation ("why do you need a bus that runs on electricity?")

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:32 PM

70. Many of us also have spent time in cities

so I would proffer that those osf us who prefer to live in rural areas do so to get away form pretty much everybody, like us or not. As for the rest, it's your opinion and you are welcome to it. I tend to disagree with it, however.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

7. ...

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:51 AM

8. Having lived in the city for many years I now choose to live in a rural area but work in the city

 

and make a long commute. No it is not the burbs either, I live in a farming community, no street lights, no light pollution, no sidewalks the only service that is available is phone and electric. Police take at least 20 minutes on a really good day so I took that into consideration too.

I knew full well that I needed to be self-sufficient and self-reliant when I did move; in fact I am more self-sufficient and self-reliant then most who grew up in my rural area. Even before I moved I owned a gun for protection in the city, 12 gauge pump shotgun. I also now own a bolt action rifle in case I needed more of a standoff weapon. Most of my neighbors own guns too but only a few of the more I would say paranoid own AR’s for home defense and as they say keeping the Gov in line, IMHO those are the people who should not be gun owners of any kind, not even a pea shooter.

If it were up to me regular psychological testing would be mandatory for all gun owners including myself.

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Response to Lesmoderesstupides (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:04 PM

12. I'm a security guard and took a psych test. I wish a gun purchase required the same or better test.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:23 PM

24. yeah my slightly sociopathic cousin failed the psych for the NYPD. I thought that was pretty

amazing because he usually knew exactly what people wanted to hear or had a workaround for everything. and he actually did, a friend of a friend got him a pass. shame, because he should never have been a cop.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:53 AM

9. I'm an urbanite.

Last edited Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:25 PM - Edit history (1)

And where I live, I, too, AM the primary local mechanic, equipment operator, plumber, electrician, carpenter, accountant, librarian, repairman, EMT and cop. I may have physical access to these people, not not necessarily financial access to them (well, except may the librarian and cop, whom my taxes make freely available to me.)

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 AM

10. I have traveled extensively, London, Paris, Rome,

Rabat, Hong Kong, Saigon, Bangkok, Mexico City and more, but I prefer living in the boonies as I do now.
If I could I would stay home all the time. Away from the crowds.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:04 PM

58. Prior to retiring I traveled overseas often, but

I have always lived in the Country where I could shoot guns if I wanted to. I did all my own repairs and I stay at home 95% of the time or more. I might go to Walmart every 4 or 5 months. I shoot turtles in the pond all summer long for practice. I'm 11 miles from any store and there's woods around me, it's nice and quite.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:54 PM

105. Seriously?

I shoot turtles in the pond all summer long for practice.


Whatever for, beyond your stated purpose of "practice?" Honest question. Do you eat them?

If the point is practicing on a moving target, you can always do some skeet shooting, or hunt something that you actually eat.

-just saying

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Response to PotatoChip (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:37 AM

116. Poster is probably

Shooting turtles under the misguided belief they are heping the fish. This is far from true. The turtles seen sunning in and around ponds, commonly referred to as pond-sliders, eat tthe algae.....not the fish. Big snappers eat fish and you will rarely see them just sitting around sunning. When the pond turns to green scum because there are no longer enough turtles to control the algae.........the fish will die due to lack of oxygen in the water.

Yes, I live in the county on a farm with a large pond......been here over 30 yrs and have never shot a single pond slider. The State Wildlife man has seen my pond and stated several times his amazement at the general 'healthiness' of the pond and its surrounding flora and fauna, because he has seen so many farm ponds become collective pits for chemical runoff from fertilizer etc.

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Response to zabet (Reply #116)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:14 PM

120. Oh, ok. I get it now.

Too bad people think that about pond-sliders, when they do such good for the water quality. I don't see a lot of turtles in my neck of the woods, so I know little about them. Or why (justifiably or not) someone would shoot them.

Thanks for the info and clarification.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 01:02 AM

112. Not me. If I had my choice, I would go live in urban areas around Europe and spend most

of my time in the old cities roaming around, visiting museums and sitting in little cafes enjoying the passing scene...I can't take huge crowds but cities just have the vibe for me...as long as they are not violent...

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Response to panader0 (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:33 PM

129. I have traveled to the British Isles, Paris, Mexico City and many Caribbean islands,

and Mexico City was the most crowded of any of them. If I could afford to move, I would live in Scotland.

I now live in an urban area of North Georgia just northwest of Atlanta. My sister and her husband live in Ellijay up in the mountains of North Georgia. It is beautiful up there, but I would never want to live there. It is too far from any civilization and they have to travel 10 miles just to go to the grocery. Forget that, I have shopping malls, supermarkets, gas stations and any other store all practically around the corner. I guess I am spoiled even though I would like to live in the boonies, I like the convenience of shopping without having to drive miles to the stores.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:04 PM

11. Let's see, I've lived at East 74th street in Manhattan, and in dairy farm country in upstate NY

So I think I'm qualified to see both points of view.

Some posters on this topic (here and in other threads) are generalizing too much. Being self-reliant in the country is very important; but I've also seen a few neighbors who couldn't crow-bar their way out of a wet paper bag. Cops are 30 minutes away, and so is a quart of milk. Contractors are reluctant to drive out here and often don't show up. I see two useful reasons for guns: hunting, and shooting a rabid animal when necessary. Some people have fun target shooting too.

Most of the local kids who go to college, do not return here. They become part of the more-educated, urban population. I don't know anyone in the country who likes classical music or does much book-readin. They mostly work on their pickup trucks and snowmobiles.

The crime rate is very low out here, even my car insurance went down when we moved. People are kind and help out strangers, unlike in the city (usually). If anyone is shot by a gun, it is pretty much 100% either a hunting accident, or domestic violence. We had one guy accidentally wander onto our property during hunting season, and he could not apologize enough for mistakenly trespassing. In 22 years, I have yet to see a person with "ill intent".

For what it's worth.....

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Response to mrsadm (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:13 PM

16. my trespassing problem is city folk who park on my property to gain access to some falls in the nati

 

National forest despite it being posted. I eventually just started getting them towed rather than getting into arguments.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:08 PM

59. Start charging for parking..they probably won't park there anymore.

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Response to shraby (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:16 PM

63. well the tow company charges them and the tow me for free when i get stuck so i guess

 

In some ways they are paying me. But unless i spend every day on the property i would never get to collect.

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Response to mrsadm (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:20 PM

23. Likewise, I've lived in NW DC, urban and rural VA, and now in rural/suburban Conn.

I cringe when people assume that you are dumb if you don't want to live in a city. That's been the most outrageous thing I've seen on DU from another thread. I work in a city, but chose a quieter lifestyle in the Conn. countryside. I am a huge book reader and I do like classical music (I have CDs from André Rieu & The Johann Strauss Orchestra), so the stereotype doesn't always hold. I don't have cable TV (antenna only), so internet and books are my primary entertainment sources. I'm sure the fact that I'm a bit of a loner makes this lifestyle better. I like to enjoy the peace of nature, and sometimes just watch the birds eat at bird feeders located outside my windows while sipping coffee. Everybody is different.

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Response to mrsadm (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:00 PM

35. My personal experience with people of ill intent is also pretty close to zero.

However, my best friend is a cop and through him I know a great deal more about the risks of rural life than I care to. I am by nature and would prefer to remain naive.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:08 PM

14. City people ARE nice


I was recently in Pittsburgh, PA for a hockey tournament my son was playing in and I found the place one of the friendliest places I've ever been to.

The myth that country folks are nicer is just that, myth. Some are of course, then some aren't.

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Response to kwolf68 (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:18 PM

21. I find rural folk to be suspicious and unhelpful unless

Last edited Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:52 PM - Edit history (1)

they know you. City folk aren't as suspicious and more willing to intervene if you need help.

I have lived in both rural and urban places.

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Response to Lex (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:25 PM

26. yep, I've seen many a situation where many NYers immediately jumped in to help

maybe it's because there are so many people around, and we feel safe doing it in a public space- but it happens all the time.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:04 PM

90. +1

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Response to Lex (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:33 PM

95. +1

Due to the Great Republican Recesseion, I took a job in a rural town. Lived in the city all of my life. I found people to be friendly to a certain level, but *in general* don't exactly welcome newcomers with open arms.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:14 PM

17. whether or not they have sidewalks? nt

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:15 PM

18. You city folk are just book larned...

us country folk are REAL larned...and we don't need no book larnin'.

Is that an accurate summary of your uhhh, uhhhhm...dissertation?

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:46 PM

48. For someone defensive about the value of your book larnin', your reading skills could improve.

When I lived "in town" I was on the city council of it.

It rains here.

In the fall, the leaves clog the storm sewer grates. Each fall, homeowners would shovel out the drains nearest their homes, and the streets would drain. This was inconvenient for the homeowners, and for the city too if the homeowner in question was unavailable during a storm event, so the city bought a street-sweeper to keep the leaves away from the drains.

Budgets were cut and public works became shorthanded, so the streetsweeper was used only intermittently. The leaves then began collecting. Streets flooded once again, but this time, those same homeowners descended on city hall like a plague of locusts; having apparently forgotten how to wield their shovels.

People are blind to the benefits of city life. The water comes in, the shit flows away, and the other things just work... and if they don't, the yellow pages carry all the solutions needed. With that mindset it's easy to ridicule those who "feel the need" for a pickup, or a tractor... or a gun.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:16 PM

19. My husband grew up in a rural area, and we've lived on an old farm

outside a small city for 30 years. We did have a single break-in; we're pretty sure we know who it was. We've had no other problems. I don't worry about beak-ins, maybe because there are other houses nearby that are more attractive! I have a couple dogs and I feel perfectly safe. My husband might buy a shotgun in the future, but that's if cougars move into the area!

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:16 PM

20. This is stereotyping.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:48 PM

50. It's generalizing.

When Obama says that we need to listen to "rural voices" on the issue of guns, he's generalizing too.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:10 PM

100. did he attribute cultural generalities specific to rural voices?

When the President said that, did he attribute cultural generalities specific to rural voices? If not, he wasn't generalizing, as listening to a demographic and attributing specific cultural generalities to rural voices are two wholly different things.

But I do understand tour desire to have the opportunity to defend yourself by saying "he did it too!!!!" It worked in fifth grade, why now now, right?

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:15 PM

126. Kind of like folks do about the South (nt)

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:19 PM

22. I am both. I grew up rural and moved to the city.

Hopefully I've learned enough from both experiences to get me through.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:24 PM

25. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, lumberjack_jeff.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:30 PM

27. All joking aside, how high is the crime rate in your rural area?

I've lived in both urban and rural areas and the only places that I experienced crime was in the urban areas--well, that isn't completely true but the crime experienced in the rural area was done by a family member (couldn't shoot my sister!).

Strangely, though, I don't see anyone on a national level clamoring to take people's guns away. Just making gun ownership a little harder and limiting what kinds of weapons someone in need of "self-protection" can get. Personally, I don't think average citizens need the same weaponry that our military or police have (assault weapons, grenades, flak jackets). I mean, a well placed arrow is just as likely to kill something or someone as a well-placed bullet and you can reuse the arrow.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:16 PM

64. I live in a rural area and the only time that I have ever

called the cops was when a neighbor was cooking Meth, the police did nothing, one reason is that a cop lives in that house. I think we should have anything that a cop has. I don't trust them.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #64)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:31 PM

69. I agree, we should all have one of these



As we all run around dressed like this:



But you'd probably be better off with a well-trained couple of these:



Because almost everyone in rural areas live next door to this guy:

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:37 PM

72. Property crime in my county is about 20% higher than the state average

Violent crime is about 30% lower.

But that's really not the relevant bit. In an urban environment, the cops are nearby. In my county at any given time there are usually 5 cops on duty - patrolling 500+ miles of road. There's a half-hour gap between realizing I need a cop and his or her arrival.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #72)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

76. When I was mugged by two youths at gun point in Norfolk, VA (not exactly rural)

it took them about 20 minutes to get there. Not all urban areas have fast police response time and it's actually dependent upon where you live in that urban area. If it's a high-crime area, the response time is generally slower. So, people living in inner-city areas should be clamoring for their right to bear arms because they're most likely to receive the slowest response time out of any of us.

And again, no one is talking about taking your guns away completely. The conversation is about making it harder to access guns for people that just shouldn't have access in the first place. Is that going to inconvenience lawful gun owners/buyers? Yes, it will but it shouldn't be as easy to buy a weapon as it is to buy a Big Mac (yes, I'm using hyperbole).

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #76)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:50 PM

80. Don't disagree.

I think better gun control is necessary. But the attitudes on display here at DU are not the way to get that done (e.g. "crazy small-penis psychopathic redneck meth-addicted losers").

Frankly, the most useful gun control ideas I've heard have come from gun owners not affiliated with the NRA. I sometimes wonder if we take lessons on how to prevent shit from getting done.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:34 PM

29. The difference between urban and rural people is...

... is where they live. End of story. Smart open progressive people can
live in the country and right wing racist bigots can live in the city.

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Response to Botany (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:54 PM

54. +1

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:36 PM

30. We could mix better if we had better passenger rail. City could visit rural for the small town festi

vals that they are famous for and rural could visit city for our shopping, entertainment, clubs and restaurants.

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Response to patrice (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

78. With all due respect...

... this is what I'm talking about.

It is completely irrational to talk about light rail as useful goal to connect areas with population densities of 20 people per square mile.

Rural, is by definition, remote.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #78)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:50 PM

81. I wasn't thinking about light-rail. I live in a "shipping hub", amazing the amount of right-of-way

around here that is judged in-appropriate for long-distance passenger rail for some reason and that includes what used to be one of the major train-stations in this country, now just something that is almost exclusively an entertainment venue, as rail-shipping flows around it to everywhere else in this country.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:42 PM

31. so much nonsense.

silly overgeneralization. There are lots of rural people who don't know the skills you claim they know. And there are plenty of urban people who do. Most rural people sure as shit don't bake their own bread or fix tractors and most urban people don't spend their spare time at a museum.

And by the way, I'm a rural person (no cell service here either).

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:45 PM

32. do you need a machine gun

with the ability to shoot off 30 to 100 rounds in a matter of seconds? do you need to not just be armed but to be armed to the teeth with weapons designed to accomplish mass murders?
no one's coming after your rifle or your shotgun.
do you have an issue with having your guns registered and being required to report if one is lost or stolen?
your argument sidesteps the issue of mass murder.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:59 PM

57. No.

So berating all rural people as fitting the strawman you just constructed is counterproductive.

Obama said that this discussion needs to include rural voices. I fully agree, and this discussion is directed at the DU'ers who indignantly shouted "bullshit" at him for suggesting it.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:32 AM

117. far from it,

i'm trying to see where there is common ground.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

75. Machine Guns are already illegal,

...and, even way out here, that is enforced.
If anybody hears automatic fire (machine gun), it IS reported to the local Sheriff,
and they usually already KNOW who it is, confiscate the illegal weapon,
arrest the owner, and enforce the stiff penalties.
Nobody in their right mind fires a Machine Gun unless they WANT to go to jail.
Even the rural Sheriffs don't want "civilians" owning and firing these military weapons.

Most of the sane people who choose to live out here
object to the broad brush condemnation and demonetization of everybody who owns a gun.
Many of us already have adequate penises,
don't fantasize about people killing,
and are responsible, intelligent citizens.




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Response to barbtries (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:32 PM

102. FYI, "machine guns" are already highly regulated, and fewer than 200K own them...

they fire FULL-AUTO, and cost (from what those in the know have told me) in excess of $10,000. They require LEOs to sign off on your trustworthiness, a $200 fee, and willingness to allow the feds to enter your home at any time to see that the weapon is there. And it better be. You cannot even have one worked on unless the gun smith is federally-certified in machine guns.

I have a ten-round semi-auto rifle (I think that is what you are referring to) in my locker. It fires as fast as I can pull the trigger (one round per pull). It was built in 1905.

One reason why people use the extended magazines is the shooting sports which have grown up around semi-auto weapons, particularly rapid-fire competition; how many targets you can shoot in X amount of time.

Frankly, the best and most direct way to reduce mass murder in the short term (esp. at schools) is to increase the number of armed security at schools. Instead of dismissing, as some have, the notion as an "NRA talking point," the idea should be taken seriously since we already have several thousand such personnel in schools -- just not enough of them. Incidentally, Barbara Box, (D) California proposed just after the Conn. shooting that the national guard be called up to patrol schools. Kind of NRA-on-steroids, which I don't support.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:57 PM

33. In my experience rural people are often well versed in local and regional history

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:04 PM

37. I grew up on a farm, 9 miles from town (pop: 2,500), then lived in D.C., Chicago and Milwaukee ...

... now I'm back in the sticks.

I don't think your thesis is very accurate in that most "rural" folks are not so rural that they don't have access to mechanics, electricians, plumbers or bakeries.

Many of us commute farther to work, as indicated in an earlier reply. Many of us farm, but not as independently, or inter-dependently as you describe. Yes, we still milk cows for our neighbors when they're sick, but few of us can repair the A/C in our homes. We hire someone to do that.

Most of us have television, and are as culturally influenced by that media as our city-dwelling brothers and sisters. Lack of internet does create a gap in many areas and should be corrected by government if the market won't do it. Remember, without the Rural Electrification Program, many of us would still be burning oil lamps.

While plowing fields is a skill not often found in urban populations, those folks also have skills unique to more populous areas (e.g., driving in heavy traffic).

In any case, I think broad generalizations are unlikely to hold up to examination. I'm not the only hick in the sticks that's seen the city lights.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:05 PM

38. Your avatar?

OT

Smedly Butler?

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Response to legaleagle_45 (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:39 PM

73. Yes. Smedley Butler.

Greatest American Hero.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #73)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:08 PM

91. I am a fan!!

One of the very few 2 time winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor... and it should have been 3 time. Author of War is a Racket and the person who revealed the Businessman's Plot against FDR.

I consider him one of the most fascinating Americans ever, although most people respond "Smedly?? Is he the villain on the Dudley Dooright Show?"

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:20 PM

39. The "Skills" part only works if you're defining "skills" as things that are helpful in the country.

First time I was in NY if my girlfriend hadn't come and gotten me I'd have basically ridden the subway around until I starved to death. Navigating a city is a skill. Functioning in an environment with that many people in it is also a skill. Building spreadsheets is a skill, and one very few rural people have. If someone came to my farm and demanded I build them a spreadsheet, I'd weight them down and sink them in the pond.

Very few rural people have the rural skills you mention. Many of the ones I know couldn't grow pigweed without killing it or fix their house or car without killing themselves. Some may have one or two of those skills at best. Most don't have any. Many *think* they have them, which is a whole different problem. If you can do all that stuff, I'd advise you not to have friends, or you'll never get another minute to yourself without someone demanding you come fix something.

The "culture" part also only works if you're defining "culture" as exposure to large numbers of people, without taking willingness to ask about or listen to those people into account. I'd also put my number of cultures exposed to while growing up against almost any person from any major city in the United States. Physical exposure to other cultures is becoming less necessary to understanding those cultures due to the internet anyway.

Even if there is a line between urban and rural people, it's too blurry to be useful. There *is* a line between what tools are necessary. e.g. I have a small backhoe for when my driveway or friends driveways wash out. Probably not necessary in the city. People are people. There's no real difference in them no matter how far you go or where you go or how many of them there are.

We don't need large capacity magazines or the ability to switch magazines rapidly no matter how rural we are.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:55 PM

56. The distinction is between vertical skills and horizontal ones.

Navigating the NYC subway is a vertical "narrow" skill. I debate whether it is all that portable to the person skilled at navigating NYC were plopped in the middle of Atlanta.

Knowing how to read a map or know the cardinal directions without a compass or gps is a horizontal skill - it's portable regardless of where you are.

And yes, I do experience nontrivial demands on my time from people who want stuff fixed. My solution is to be stingy with fixing and liberal with teaching.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:38 PM

45. Not a good enough argument to justify having an AK47. Or 30 bullet mags. Sorry. I'm sure 6'll do it

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Response to judesedit (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:12 PM

61. From my own life experience, I can't really disagree.

But I think it's important to include rural people in the discussion, because the shotgun in the safe probably represents something different to him or her than it does to you.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:47 PM

49. therefore urban/suburban people have no need to have people-killing guns. great news ! nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:50 PM

51. Urban folks do have "people killing guns". They simply hire others to operate them. n/t

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:52 PM

52. The Internet, even accessed over slow rural connections,

...has made Living-in -the-Sticks and spending time at the library and museums much easier.

My Wife & I chose living Rural over the City in 2005.
We sold everything,
moved to the Woods,
started growing our own food,
and doing everything ourselves.

We are committed to living as independently, sustainably, poison free, and Green as possible.
While we sometimes miss the luxuries and entertainment venues of The City, we haven't regretted moving here for a single day.
My Wife & I are healthy and strong,
and have the necessary complementary Skill Set to make this FUN (most of the time). What I'm bad at, she is good at, with enough overlap so that we can share many tasks.

But this life is not for everybody.
If you can't handle a chain saw,
repair a tractor,
clear roads after storms,
swing a sledge or an ax,
build a shed,
repair plumbing or wiring,
re-shingle the roof after a storm,
cook from scratch,
preserve food for the Winter,
cull immature roosters from your flock of chickens,
shoot a rabid skunk,
or help a neighbor when they need to do the above,
then you don't belong out here.

Oddly enough, Good Social Skills are way more important out here,
than they are in The City. City Dwellers enjoy the luxury of the option to be cold, uncaring, rude, abusive, anti-social, and judgmental, without consequence.

Out here, especially way out here, there simply aren't enough people.
Sooner or later, you WILL need to ask for help,
and healthy, respectful neighborly relationships, even with people who believe different things than you do, will be important.




Next year,
we will CONSUME less,
PRODUCE more,
and leave an even smaller Carbon Footprint.


And, Oh Yes, we also own several guns,
and have used them to protect ourselves, our pets,
our stock, and our Veggie Gardens,
though we prefer to Live Trap and relocate.





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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:53 PM

53. ...is that some of them are urban and, get this, some of them are rural.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:55 PM

55. You're probably referring to a handful of people

The people you're referring to are probably consistently unreasonable on a wide range of issues.

I have never lived in a rural setting, but I understand that our needs and resources are different. There are some here who don't get rural or urban needs because they're in an extremely comfortable, "safe" suburban setting.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:15 PM

62. RURAL POPULATION IN DECLINE FOR GOOD REASONS AND MORE WOULD LEAVE IF THEY COULD

 

I live in a rural area and never seen so much domestic violence, abuse of hard drugs(oxy and meth) and alcoholism. The kids are literally bored to death and are ill equipped to leave for a better life. I have a relative that travels all over the world and he says the police presence in most rural southern counties is worse than many Chinese cities. BTW, YOU CAN'T GET NEWER CARS FIXED IN RURAL AREAS THEY DON'T HAVE THE TOOLS OR EXPERTISE.

Kacey Musgraves - Merry Go 'round

If you ain't got two kids by 21,
You're probably gonna die alone
At least that's what tradition told you.

And it don't matter if you don't believe,
Come Sunday morning you best be there
In the front row, like you're s'posed to.

Same hurt in every heart.
Same trailer, different park.

Mamas hooked on Mary Kay
Brothers hooked on Mary Jane
And Daddy's hooked on Mary two doors down.

Mary Mary quite contrary,
We get bored so we get married
And just like dust we settle in this town.
On this broken merry go 'round and 'round and 'round we go,
Where it stops nobody knows...
And it ain't slowin' down, this merry go 'round...

We think the first time's good enough,
So we hold on to high school love,
Say we won't end up like our parents.

Tiny little boxes in a row,
Ain't what you want it's what you know,
Just happy in the shoes you're wearin'.

Same checks we're always cashin',
To buy a little more distraction.

Cause Mamas hooked on Mary Kay
Brothers hooked on Mary Jane
Daddys hooked on Mary two doors down.

Mary Mary quite contrary,
We get bored so we get married
And just like dust we settle in this town.
On this broken merry go 'round and 'round and 'round we go,
Where we stop nobody knows...
And it ain't slowin' down, this merry go 'round...

Mary Mary quite contrary,
We're so bored until we're buried.
And just like dust we settle in this town.
On this broken merry go 'round...
Merry go 'round...

Jack and Jill went up the hill,
Jack burned out on booze and pills,
And Mary had a little lamb,
Mary just don't give a damn no more.

Read more: http://artists.letssingit.com/kacey-musgraves-lyrics-merry-go-round-vlwdr26#ixzz2JIbe5XcA
LetsSingIt - Your favorite Music Community

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:28 PM

68. wow! nt

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:27 PM

67. country folk aren't afraid to speak to each other

 

city slickers are too damn squirrely.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #67)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:50 PM

79. It's one thing to retire to the country, it's quite another to grow up in the country

 

The local kids and young people are full of despair. I've never met white kids before who couldn't read and write. The school year started with a teenager killing himself with a gun. A local woman trained in education can't get a job, she goes to the school board meeting and all they care about is the football team. I guess the leadership of the community thinks that if they educate anyone they'll just leave.


BTW,I like how many of the country music stars move to LA or NY.

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #79)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:16 PM

92. Yes, you point to a lot of the hardships of rural life in much of America.

It's a good part of the reason I stay in a remarkably rural area (it's a 20 minute drive to the nearest Wal-Mart) even though a majority (small but not insignificant) of my neighbors d on't vote how I do, even though it would be easier and perhaps less frustrating to live somewhere like Vermont where it seems everyone has similar political beliefs to me and the state reflects that.

But another part of the reason I stay is that I genuinely believe there are powerful gifts the place I live has to give to the world. I and several of my friends have lived in cities but found the lack of intimacy in daily interactions to be something we couldn't handle. People here are enormously generous and supportive...and the fact of the matter is we don't usually talk about politics much, because the important thing in any conversation is preserving and strengthening our ties to each other. Politics are inherently divisive--even on a seemingly homogenous political discussion board such as this one. I have learned a whole lot more about how to behave towards other human beings from my time in this place, with all its flaws, than I ever learned in a city (or even most rural places, for that matter).

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:41 PM

74. Do you think Democrats are trying to take your guns away?

Why would you think that? Do you have bazookas, assault rifles made fully automatic with large clips? If not, I repeat, why do you think Democrats are after your handgun or hunting rifle? Not one Democrat in congress has proposed that, not ever.

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Response to lark (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:54 PM

83. No. Because they're not listening to a vocal minority of DU'ers.

This isn't a letter to congress. It is a letter to DU, and specifically those who are pissed because Obama felt it appropriate to listen to rural voices on the topic.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

77. this is total bullshit as evidenced by the lack of any science, any study, and

your post's wholesale reliance on Andy Griffith stereotypes.

definitely not recommending this.

and not recommending the post of someone who thinks women should pay more for health insurance.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:52 PM

82. That's nice. n/t

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:23 PM

107. So then you oppose President Obama's stand on this issue?

Yes?

Obama says rural voices need to be heard in gun debate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022269308

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #107)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:43 PM

108. Rural people need to be understood, as do urbanites and Americans of all locales, BUT

But BS is BS and BS should not be used to set policy.

understanding rural, urban or opinions of any American is a great thing, but ignorance should never be the basis of policy.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #108)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:48 PM

109. I smell equivocation.

Trying to have it both ways?

How is that working for you?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:38 AM

111. well you have to smell it because you sure didn't read any equivocation

i will say again that listening to people doesn't include agreeing with things that they say when they are wrong.

and many people have unfounded or inaccurate fears about laws that aren't proposed, don't exist or facets of such laws which will not harm them at all.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #111)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:00 PM

119. "many people have unfounded or inaccurate fears"

Yes.
And they spend their lives building cartoon Fantasy Worlds to justify their irrational fears.

There ARE many educated, responsible, sane, compassionate human beings who choose to live in rural areas and own guns.
President Obama recognizes this.
Many of them have posted to DU, including the OP.

And, yet, despite this overwhelming evidence and testimony from sane, Liberal Democrats who actually live out here,
some on DU stubbornly insist on clinging to their irrational fantasies that everyone who chooses to live in rural areas and own guns
is some kind of mouth breathing, maniac who makes love to guns and dreams of killing nice, civilized city folk, and is a threat to their security.

That in not just untrue,
it is laughable.

I thought the OP, and President Obama, did a good job of addressing this issue and injecting some sanity into this debate,
but I underestimated how stubbornly some cling to their fears & fantasies.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:19 AM

115. Mostly she opposes any words found to the left of the name "lumberjack_jeff"

It's easier than thinking.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:58 PM

85. UH, as Americans get older, they tend to move back to rural areas.

Unless you are in the top 4% or so, you really cannot survive economically in any of the bigger American cities. (Not talking about Louisville, KY, or Montgomery Alabama)

So when you decide to retire, you may well end up living in "Hicksville." It's cheaper, and more pleasant.

Although sociologists seem immune to this fact, the populations between the city mice and country mice inter weave. I get really sad that so many cinematic portrayals of people in rural areas are all "Straw Dogs" about us country folk.

I am not afraid of my neighbors here. And the second I am back in one of the "cultural oasis" places, my concerns over whether I might get into an altercation over "stealing someone's parking spot" go sky high.

Whenever I miss the city, I turn on the news. Watching the reports of the traffic delays, and the murders committed in just the past 24 hours, and my nostalgia for Big City life disappears.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:01 PM

89. Ever grow up in a small homogeneous town?

If you are not in the majority in every aspect, you are an outsider.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2273355

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Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #89)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:11 PM

136. Dawson you are talking about them young apples,

And I am talking about us older oranges.

Believe me, I wouldn't want to be living where I am living now back when I was twenty or thirty or even forty. But it is perfect for me and my spouse right now.

But right now, college towns, many of them located in green belts of farm land across the USA, are the number one retirement draw for older people. People who went to college in Ann Arbor, Madison, Boulder, and Austin, think with fondness of those formative years. They only left those places because it was hard to find work. (unless you became a university professor, doctor or lawyer.)

Now when facing retirement they think about a return to those places.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #136)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 09:38 PM

138. In fairness, many college towns are nice.

They are diverse.

Newark Delaware is a nice town, not too far from Philadelphia.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:59 PM

86. First nobody wants to take your guns away

Secondly I lived in very rural open range country and never locked my doors or felt the need to buy guns for protection.
You are speeking for yourself here.
As much as some urban people broad brush rural people as idiots, you broad brush rural life as more dangerous than urban life. Urban
life is more dangerous in the sense of crime.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:29 PM

93. Cultural and social differences aren't "nothing"

and no, you don't NEED a gun (a handgun or AR with a 30-round magazine, anyway).

Among the many differences between urban and rural populations: population density and crimes against property. They correlate, and the rate of burglary, robbery, and violent crimes? Your chances of becoming a victim of one of those in any given year is significantly lower than your chance of dying in a car crash. This is a pretty lame justification.

And anyway, I don't really think anyone serious has been saying "let's ban all guns", so this is a total non sequitur and sounds like it's driven by the same sort of unreasoning paranoia that makes you think you really need a gun in the first place.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #93)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:32 PM

103. What tools do urban repairmen need?

In the absence of a repairman to fix stuff, each household needs those tools.

What tools do the city utilities crew carry? In the absence of urban utilities, each household needs to the ability to keep the water flowing downhill.

What is the bare minimum toolset for urban and suburban police? Does that include a handgun? YMMV

People around here think "rural" is like the city, but with more trees.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #103)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:42 PM

106. I live in the UK. Police here aren't armed, as a general rule.

And you're not a police officer. So whether police carry handguns or not is irrelevant; you're talking about home defence, for which a shotgun is probably a better weapon (and you can also hunt small game with it, which a handgun is not practical for).

And again...your chances of being the victim of any type of violent crime in a rural area? Very low. (Robbery for instance is around 20 per 100K, in suburban and "non-urban" areas per FBI stats.)

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:51 PM

97. Who is planning on taking away your guns, your chainsaws, and your wrenches?

Who is realistically planning on taking away your guns, your chainsaws, and your wrenches (and of course, I imagine many people can empathize with all the unpleasant representations your wrench conjures up...)

Bless your little heart...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #97)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:34 PM

104. There are undoubtedly people who don't fit into the urban/rural dichotomy.

That's why the matrix includes the other two dimensions. How's life in the upper left corner?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:01 PM

99. Why do we live in a rural area ?

We want to do what we want on our property ..... but so do our neighbors. We try not to annoy others ... but we do get the racing up and down the road at all hours of the night or tearing up the fields with their pickups. We don't own guns, but all our neighbors do... we hear gunshots at all hours, all year round. The deer poachers like to leave the unwanted bits on our land with their empty liquor bottles. I've had to confront several hunters at once who were trespassing .... within 100 feet of our home. So half the time it's quiet and safe. We're surrounded by farms, horse stables, hay fields, saw mills and soon fracking gas wells. Our taxes are low and we control our own water a sewage. 15 minutes from Binghamton NY, so we still have access to everything we need. Once you live in the country, it's very difficult to live in the city. There's good and bad. When it's quite ... it's very quiet. At night you can see the Milky Way and dozens of meteors. Mid morning, mid afternoon and nights there's hardly a car going by. The mail lady brings packages right to our door and we have a friendly conversation. You have to have a 4 wheel drive with a plow, but I've also pulled a few people out of ditches with it. We buy good local organic beef and eggs. Anyway I've been rambling on. Got to get back to surfing.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:22 AM

110. The question of rural vs urban makes my mind explode..

I just have to laugh and giggle for resasons only I can understand.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:36 AM

118. Both have inflated senses of self-importance.

And both assume the other has never walked in their shoes.

To wit: until three years ago, I'd lived for more than ten years in a town that eventually grew to 700 people. I dug out of snow on a dirt road, bought 4-H meat at the auction, drove the ambulance. And I owned guns. Elk in the freezer.

Yet, somehow, I support gun control.

The urban/suburban divide is a smokescreen. Gun nuts who stand behind it are disingenuous at best. No one wants grandpa's duck gun; no one ever did, or ever will.

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Response to Robb (Reply #118)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:54 PM

121. The person you were for 10 years is the type of person you now hope dems waste no time with.

I find that worthy of mention.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #121)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:59 PM

122. Idiotic that this offends you. Why chase a small number of voters?

Lots of people think they're rural folks. Hell, my folks do. They're not.

Realistically, as I've said, "rural" is a dwindling number of voters who vote in smaller amounts every year.

It would be like focusing on getting the vote of banjo players, of which I am also one, and who are similarly not worth the effort due to how few of us there are, and how there are fewer all the time. If analytics also showed a smaller percentage of banjo players were voting each year, why in hell go after them?

You have X resources to go after Y votes. It's not a value judgment on banjo players. Sheesh.

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Response to Robb (Reply #122)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:52 PM

123. Why chase a small number of voters?

This is EXACTLY the calculus behind Richard Nixon's southern strategy and "social conservatism".

"Moral majority" much?

Assuming that your question represents a teachable moment, the direct, non-idiotic answer to the question you posed is "because Wyoming has the same number of senators as Vermont".

That's why. Even an idiot knows this.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:08 PM

124. Good grief.

At the risk of repeating myself, "rural" is not the same as "the South." It also is not the same as "Wyoming."

Which has three electoral votes. And a mostly urban population.

Spend less time nursing your perceived slight, and more understanding the realities here. First, that what you think of as "rural" probably isn't; and that the actual rural vote is shrinking in overall numbers AND declining in turnout percentage.

Those people aren't vanishing; they're not moving to Canada. They're becoming classified as urban and suburban, because their towns are getting bigger. They can still hold small-town values, work in ag, be involved in politics.

And politicians will be happy to pander to whatever conceit and fiction those folks wish to hold out. They always have been, and always will be. Those same politicians will also be happy to find yet another way to divide people -- this time, by feeding their sense of "city folk don't understand small towns."

Hint: if you have a drive-through window that isn't a liquor store, you're not rural.

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Response to Robb (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:24 PM

127. It really doesn't matter who the census bureau thinks "rural"

The census bureau says that less than 30% of people in Idaho are rural. If you were to ask Idaho residents if they are urban or rural, I would be willing to bet that fewer than 70% would say "urban". For the purposes of this discussion, self identity is the only relevant basis.

Hint: if you have a drive-through window that isn't a liquor store, you're not rural.


My issue isn't "perceived slight". It is the demonstrable, observable pride that some posters take in their predjudice and borderline bigotry.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #127)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:30 PM

128. Can we target self-identified handsome people, too?

I'm sure we can get some numbers together for this brilliant election strategy.

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Response to Robb (Reply #128)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:34 PM

130. If you're going to do wedge politics, know where you're putting it.

You might think that only 20% of the public is on the shitty side of your wedge, but I guarantee that you're misjudging the situation.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #130)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:40 PM

132. Fine, we'll pander to the delusional.

I'll let you go, I'm sure Plouffe will be calling you any second.

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Response to Robb (Reply #132)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:43 PM

134. Right, because "middle class tax cuts" is an electoral loser that no democrat would ever support.

...because everyone in the reality-based community knows that only 5% or so of the population is actually "middle class".

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:36 PM

131. I must be the amazing, morphing woman.

I grew up in the rural Midwest on a farm. Moved to the city as a teenager, back to the county as a young woman, then lived in a series of cites around the world, then in the rural mountains of California...... I think this little chart is way too black and white. I'm not sure it can even be applied to a majority of people.

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Response to OnionPatch (Reply #131)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:41 PM

133. I think it's partly (mostly?) about self-identity too.

Do you identify with the independent self-reliant archetype or the cultured, social, world-wise one?

If the former, you'd probably tend to prefer/idealize a rural life, even if your neighborhood might not fall under the strict definition.

Maybe it's mostly a state of mind.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #133)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:06 PM

139. I identify with

An independent, self-reliant, cultured, social person.

I've always been a liberal, though i grew up exposed to both liberal and conservative ideologies.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:24 PM

137. A company moved some operations from Manhattan/Brooklyn to town just north of Newark

Employees complained that they would likely die before the volunteer EMS squad ever got to them in case of a medical emergency. No way did they want to work or live beyond the reach of the New York City EMS services.

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