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Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:29 AM

Every gun in the hands of a child must first pass through the hands of an adult.

This has been in my signature line since Newtown.

It was noticed by a few, during my Sunday Shooting Review, that there were an awful lot of guns in the hands of children this week.

It's not just this week. It's every week.

When you exercise the right to own a gun, you must not abdicate the responsibility of owning a gun. When a society is unable to responsibly exercise a right, that right winds up being curtailed. No one finds that anything but distasteful.

But.

It is not the fault of "gun grabbers," or gun control advocates of any stripe, that gun owners as a group are unable to police themselves in this regard. The means, and the opportunity to do so has been there for years. It has been there, and as a group, you have done nothing.

For gun owners, these days ahead are your last opportunity to demonstrate to the rest of us a willingness to take concrete steps to behave responsibly. I say this as a former gun owner, and with no small amount of regret.

Do not continue to squander this opportunity.

43 replies, 2297 views

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Reply Every gun in the hands of a child must first pass through the hands of an adult. (Original post)
Robb Jan 2013 OP
EarthWindFire Jan 2013 #1
Robb Jan 2013 #3
regjoe Jan 2013 #18
Robb Jan 2013 #21
regjoe Jan 2013 #24
Robb Jan 2013 #25
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #37
rl6214 Jan 2013 #40
EarthWindFire Jan 2013 #43
jmg257 Jan 2013 #4
MH1 Jan 2013 #19
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #42
Recursion Jan 2013 #2
Robb Jan 2013 #5
Recursion Jan 2013 #6
Oneka Jan 2013 #14
Robb Jan 2013 #22
Recursion Jan 2013 #33
Robb Jan 2013 #34
Recursion Jan 2013 #35
Oneka Jan 2013 #36
Paladin Jan 2013 #7
Recursion Jan 2013 #10
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #27
Recursion Jan 2013 #28
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #31
Recursion Jan 2013 #32
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #9
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #8
proud2BlibKansan Jan 2013 #11
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #12
proud2BlibKansan Jan 2013 #13
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #16
marions ghost Jan 2013 #41
moondust Jan 2013 #15
Robb Jan 2013 #20
Recursion Jan 2013 #29
Bake Jan 2013 #38
NickB79 Jan 2013 #17
Robb Jan 2013 #23
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #26
ileus Jan 2013 #30
libdem4life Jan 2013 #39

Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:37 AM

1. there are over

 

200 million privately owned firearms in the United States, so if you look at the numbers, the term "awful lot" isn't actually factual.

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Response to EarthWindFire (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:41 AM

3. You're doing it again.

You can't downplay child deaths from firearms any more...

You either help solve the problem, or it will get solved without your input. Which do you prefer?

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:38 PM

18. Unfortunately, you guys don't want any input

 

that dares not fall in lockstep with your fear based opinions. You have painted yourselves into a corner where the only way to calm your fears is to amend or repeal the 2nd Amendment and to effectively enforce such action, and that is nowhere near possible.

IF you gave a crap about seriously working towards lowering gun violence, you wouldn't be issuing ultimatums to law abiding people. You wouldn't be pandering for sympathy support. You wouldn't willfully ignore the difference between urban, semi-rural and rural folks. You wouldn't be pretending that you have enough support to "solve" things how only you want them to be "solved."

You either work with us, or you get nothing that will mean anything. Which do you prefer?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:21 PM

21. It's hardly an ultimatum. You've had decades.

Your perennial proposal -- "do nothing that affects guns" -- has yielded no results. Kids are dying unabated, and now you look like monsters for your inaction to stop it.

That's the perception; an overrepresented minority of monsters. And calling the mere mention of dead kids "pandering" makes you sound like the worst of them.

What's your solution? Dig in your heels more? Do more nothing? Why on earth do you think that will work this time?

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Response to Robb (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:51 PM

24. That's just it

 

People who believe in our 2nd Amendment right are NOT saying to "do nothing that affects guns." In fact, there have been plenty of gun control laws passed over the past decades. NICS, city restrictions, city bans, trigger locks, gun-free zones, to name just a few. Firearms training and safety classes are offered just about everywhere.
It's time to stop pretending nothing has been done.

The only monsters involved in this are the scum like Lautner, Holmes and Lanza, and your attempt to place all gun owners in their category is despicable.

Smaller mags, less scary looking guns, gun and ammo limits etc... would not have prevented any mass shootings and will not prevent the next one. The only solution that will is to ban and confiscate all firearms and your damn right I will dig my heels in on that.

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Response to Robb (Reply #25)


Response to Robb (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:14 AM

40. And then there was this

 

Mark Mattioli, father of James, one of those killed, said new gun controls are not right response to the killing of his son and the others.

"I believe in simple few gun laws," he said. "I think we have more than enough on the books. We should hold people individually accountable for their actions and we should enforce laws appropriately. And I would say we're not currently enforcing them appropriately."


http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/newtown-sandy-hook-school-shooting/hc-gun-hearing-0129-20130128,0,394469.story

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Response to Robb (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 08:03 AM

43. he didn't

 

say there were no monsters, he said it is despicable that you anti 2A people like to group all gun owners into this "monster" stereotype.

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Response to EarthWindFire (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:41 AM

4. Hmmm...maybe you are right...he should have said "way too fucking many"...

A 16-year-old boy was found shot in the head along with another man in a park.

Three teens between the ages of 16 and 19 were shot during an argument at a party.

A toddler and mother were shot by gunmen in a car.

A 4 year-old girl was tied up and shot many times with a pellet gun.

A young child was among three shot in a McDonald's parking lot.

A 9 year-old boy was sitting in his living room watching TV when he was fatally shot in the head with a bullet fired from outside his house.

A 3 year-old boy shot himself in the head with a handgun.

An 11 year-old girl was shot in the face by her father.

A 17-year-old boy died on the sidewalk in front of his house, shot after an argument.

A 4 year-old boy shot himself in the head with a pistol he discovered in the car while his father was driving.

A 4 year-old-boy shot himself with a revolver he discovered under a pillow.

A 3 year-old boy shot himself with a handgun he discovered in his parent's room.

A 4 year-old boy shot himself in the head with a handgun he found in the bathroom.

A 5-year-old boy and his mother were shot by the father, who then set fire to the house and shot himself.

A 4 year-old girl shot by her 6 year-old brother has died. The boy found the revolver under a jacket.

A 2 year-old was shot by an 18 year-old while he was playing with a handgun.

A 5 year-old was shot by a 7 year-old, using a handgun belonging to his 22 year-old brother.

A 9 year-old boy, a 5 year-old girl and a 2 year-old girl were among five shot by a 15 year-old boy.


edit:emphasis added.

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Response to EarthWindFire (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:43 PM

19. "awful" might be the term the child's loved one's would apply

don't you think?

The term "lot" is widely used to mean any size group of things, for example a manufacturing lot. In some types of manufacturing, a lot size of one is not uncommon.

So, I would say even ONE weapon that kills a child could accurately be called an AWFUL lot.

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Response to EarthWindFire (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:23 AM

42. So how many dead kids does it take before your "awful lot" criteria is met?

Just curious.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:40 AM

2. Unfortunately the most common kinds of firearms deaths don't have the emotional impact...

... of the least common kind. The "real" danger of firearms are accidents and suicide, then single homicides. Mass shootings, as appalling and media-saturated as they are, don't really even show up in the stats (bee stings kill more people than mass shootings).

But mass shootings are covered 24/7 and launch frankly misdirected national dialogs; we worry about obscure features of certain semi-automatic rifles when the one thing we should be really focused on is the availability of handguns to people who shouldn't have them.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:45 AM

5. And as a responsible gun owner, you need to get involved.

The reason legislation doesn't make sense is an unwillingness on the part of gun owners to engage, meaningfully.

And it's not going to get "better" for you if that doesn't happen. It will get worse, because the problem will get worse and there will be more legislation that gets increasingly draconian.

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Response to Robb (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:46 AM

6. I don't own a gun

But I do try to get involved.

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Response to Robb (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 AM

14. "It will get worse, because the problem will get worse"

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Response to Oneka (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:24 PM

22. Can you stand in front of a grieving parent and say that?

Because that's essentially what you're asking our elected officials to do. They actually get that duty.

Do you really think that's their plan?

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Response to Robb (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:17 PM

33. Does grief change facts? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:22 PM

34. How long have you been interested in politics?

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Response to Robb (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:22 PM

35. Fair enough (nt)

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Response to Robb (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:36 PM

36. Our elected officials will do what they always do

Last edited Mon Jan 28, 2013, 08:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Tell us all how much they care, then calculate their chances of re election before voting up or down, legislation based on that assessment and then blame the outcome on a boogeyman. The NRA is the likely boogeyman in this situation. The facts are still the facts, violent crime, and homicides
have come down dramatically over the last 2 decades. There is no reason to think that trend will change , without any changes to current federal gun restrictions. Emotional appeals to get laws passed after national tragedies are how we ended up with the so called "patriot act" do we really want more of the same?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:59 AM

7. Spare Us The Lectures On Emotionalism, OK?


If the last few weeks at DU have confirmed anything at all, it is that pro-gun activists base their stance on at least as great a quantity of emotional energy as do gun control advocates. Yet another ploy which no longer works, post-Sandy Hook.

And I wonder: are you ever going to get around to attacking pistols with the same vigor you apply to defending AR-15's? I've got my doubts.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:13 AM

10. Well, I've repeatedly said I'd support a ban on semi-automatic pistols

So, there's that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:38 PM

27. And this is why compromise is so difficult.

I would be fine with gun owners, and non gun owners sitting down, working on some compromises, and calling it a day. There are parts that both sides agree with.

The issue is there are a lot of people that want to ban damn near everything, and wish that the only guns allowed were single shot, etc.

So many guns owners feel like every time we give something up, advocates of gun bans just move the bar further. There are a lot of people on this board that want our gun rules to mirror Japan, and I don't support that.

So I feel the only way to keep reasonable gun rights is to not give an inch. If I agreed to a 10 round mag limit, whats to stop you guys from deciding to push for a 7 round limit a few years later, then a 5 round limit etc. So as such, I do not support any new gun laws, and I won't vote for those who do support them.

And for the record one reason why I am against and AWB, beyond the reasons I just mentioned, is because I don't think it will actually increase safety. First off CT had an AWB, and the bushmaster used was legal under that law. Columbine happened during the AWB. In Virginia Tech, the majority of magazines used were 10 round magazines.

Even if we could get rid of all AR-15 rifles, do you really think that somebody like Adam Lanza would suddenly change his mind and decide not to shoot up a school? I'll be the first to give fault to nancy lanza for not securing her weapons, and if you want to talk about passing safe storage laws, I'll have that discussion, and even support that law. But when the goal is to pass an AWB today, and slowly try to restrict more and more guns until our laws look like Japan's, then don't be upset when i won't compromise.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:41 PM

28. Are you asking me? I'm one of the most anti-AWB people on DU

I just also think the Constitutional case for a right to a handgun is much weaker than for a shotgun or rifle, and that there are way way too many handguns out there.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:52 PM

31. Interesting

That was directed at you, as you stated that you support a ban on semi auto pistols, and I just assumed that you also supported an AWB.

It seems like most people find assault weapons 'more evil' than pistols, so I assume that anybody who was against semi auto pistols was also against semi auto rifles.

So I apologize for the assumption on my part.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:54 PM

32. I admit it's an idiosyncratic position

Also, our experience with the war on drugs doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm for how well a pistol ban would work. But, in general I'm much more worried about handguns than long guns, and the numbers back me up on that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:10 AM

9. "misdirected national dialogs" sums up the "debate."

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:04 AM

8. I agree with your observation about gun indoctrination ...

As has been pointed out before, the incidence of childhood death rates due to "gun accidents" has been falling (NSC), and most homicides are committed by the usual suspects: repeat felons.
This is why gun safety and proper use of firearms is important, and expansion of these programs should continue; of course this will be met by virulent resistance from extreme controllers.

The crud bags who shoot up schools, etc. will always be with us to some degree, but we can lessen their impact by a combination of approaches, including that one most-attacked strategy: Improved school security. Called an "NRA talking point" by many extreme controllers, a hopped-up version (using the Guard) was promoted by one Barbara Boxer (D) California. Go figure.

A hard truth: FUs like school shooters are in the end few and far between, anomalies who can't fit into a society which is doubling down on "individuation," yet is promoting celebrity on every goddam electronic street corner.

But guns/gun-control has become a full-throated culture war where enemies are attacked and solutions rejected if they do not satisfy the urge to punish whole swaths of people.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:17 AM

11. Adult gun owners should be fined when kids get ahold of their guns.

Maybe Uncle Bubba will be a little more careful with his gun and lock it up if he knows he'll have to pay a hefty fine when his nephew takes it to school. If he shoots someone with it, the fine should be double.

Bubba isn't losing his gun. Just being forced to be responsible with it.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:46 AM

12. If anyone is hurt, a fine is completely inadequate.

Irresponsible gun owners need to be PROSECUTED AND JAILED.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

13. Yes if someone is hurt that makes more sense

But a large fine for letting a kid get ahold of your gun - when no one gets hurt - seems very appropriate.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:00 PM

16. Large - like $10k for a first offense, and a month in jail for a second offense.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 05:20 AM

41. Fined?

Jail time as well.

That would go a long way to stopping guns in the hands of kids.

The OWNER takes responsibility when his/her gun is used by someone else. And I mean FULL responsibility.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:59 AM

15. There is no way to police it.

Some people are conscientious about things, others are lazy slobs. Some people have all their ducks in a row, others have trouble getting out of bed in the morning. So it has always been and so it always will be. You'll never get everybody to act responsibly or even know what that may entail. "I'll hide it under my pillow." "I keep mine in a dresser drawer." And you can't keep a guard posted on every gun in circulation 24/7 to make sure they're secured.

Even somebody who is careful to keep their guns locked up in a safe may have a resourceful child or relative who finds the "secret" hiding place for the key or the combination.

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Response to moondust (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

20. If no one can come up with something that works

...the end result will be no guns for anyone. Because the current situation is untenable.

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Response to Robb (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:43 PM

29. Why is it untenable? It's better than 20 years ago (nt)

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Response to Robb (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:02 PM

38. That will most assuredly NOT be the result.

You'll never, I repeat NEVER, get that without a constitutional amendment, and do you really think you've got the votes to do that?

I don't.

Almost no Republican will vote to repeal 2A, and a helluva lot of Dems (me included) will vote against a repeal.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Bake

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:01 PM

17. That's why my guns are doubly locked up

The local police department hands out trigger locks every time someone applies for a handgun or assault rifle permit, so I grab one every chance I get. The locks stay on the guns until I get them to the range. When not in use, the guns are stored in a locked closet in a storage area of the house, and the key for THAT room stored hidden in our bedroom. The guns are never left loaded either.

Theoretically, someone could get access to them if they knew where to look, and took an axe to the door and a set of bolt cutters to the trigger locks, but my 2-yr old hasn't quite progressed to that level of manual dexterity yet

Once finances allow, I might purchase a gun safe to add another level of protection to the system and double as a fire safe for personal effects.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:27 PM

23. I lost the key to my last trigger lock.

A kid on YouTube showed me how to remove it in one second with a pair of channel locks.

Don't take any chances.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:07 PM

26. So I looked at the link to Chicago killings...didn't look like mentally ill doing most of that

Do you have any summary count on the weeks killings by lunatic monster minors among us?

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:48 PM

30. My son loves his 7mm08

What a deer machine it's become for him.

He wants his own AR but at today's prices he'll have to settle for shooting one of mine.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:17 PM

39. Taxes, fees, product liability insurance, strict background checks have nothing to do with the 2nd

Ammendent. 80 million owners must cover the $176 billion public cost...not the taxpayer. It is a privilege as well as a responsibility and the privilege can be revoked in the absence of responsibility.

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