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Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:46 PM

Strike at the root of gun violence by shutting down the 'iron pipeline'

<snip>

Obama also proposed a federal gun trafficking measure Wednesday, which Kelly called “a move in the right direction,” saying that 90% of the guns confiscated by police in New York come from out of state. “We need a federal plan. Otherwise, we’re still going to be plagued with guns coming from all over. They come up what we call the iron pipeline, 95, Highway 95, coming up from the southern states. These are guns that are landing on our doorstep and they’re killing New Yorkers,” Kelly said.

Kelly commended Obama’s efforts to reform gun control. “I think the power of the office is tremendous and the fact that the president is now speaking about it, actually getting behind this legislation, will mean an awful lot. As he said yesterday, that we need the public support. We need the citizens to get behind this. To me, this is just common sense. These are not new proposals. Certainly, Mayor Bloomberg has put these proposals forward for quite a while. But now that they’re sort of coalescing, getting behind it, and the president is leading the charge, I think this is very, very important and it could very well be a turning point.”

more...

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/17/ray-kelly-armed-guards-in-schools-is-not-the-answer/

<snip>

In New York City alone, just last week, the NYPD suffered one of its bloodiest nights when three officers suffered gunshot wounds, in two separate crimes, just an hour apart. We are all thankful these heroes are on their way to recovery.

Almost one year ago, NYPD Officer Peter Figoski, the father of four beautiful daughters, was tragically killed in the line of duty.

One thing all of these shootings have in common: the guns used all came up "the Iron pipeline" from out-of-state. In fact, according to the Mayor's office, 85 percent of the guns used in gun crimes in New York City come from out-of-state, and at least 90 percent of these guns are illegal.

more...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-kirsten-gillibrand/end-the-flow-of-illegal-g_b_2440791.html

Proponents adhering strictly to the current NRA talking point about identifying the 'mentally ill' is just a panacea to placate the masses...until the next gun massacre occurs, that is. The root of the problem lies in the ready availability of firearms, and the NRA's polly-parrots continue to ignore the fact - once bandied about by their side with great regularity - that anyone, despite appearing on any generated list, is able to obtain a firearm because they're so readily available. All suggestions that run contrary to the NRA script are met with the equivalent of 'resistance is futile,' however, so it's up to us who believe a legislative solution is within our grasp to apply unrelenting pressure until the real problems are addressed first.

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Strike at the root of gun violence by shutting down the 'iron pipeline' (Original post)
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 OP
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #1
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #3
sarisataka Jan 2013 #8
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #10
sarisataka Jan 2013 #12
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #15
sarisataka Jan 2013 #18
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #23
sarisataka Jan 2013 #25
Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #16
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #20
pkdu Jan 2013 #31
sarisataka Jan 2013 #34
datasuspect Jan 2013 #2
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #6
RC Jan 2013 #4
hack89 Jan 2013 #5
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #7
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #9
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #13
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #17
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #21
Cirque du So-What Jan 2013 #24
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #27
pkdu Jan 2013 #32
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #36
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #11
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #14
jazzimov Jan 2013 #19
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #26
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #29
jazzimov Jan 2013 #30
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #35
jazzimov Jan 2013 #38
Lurks Often Jan 2013 #37
jazzimov Jan 2013 #39
Lurks Often Jan 2013 #40
Recursion Jan 2013 #28
stultusporcos Jan 2013 #33
aikoaiko Jan 2013 #22

Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:49 PM

1. correct

fully fund and enforce existing laws

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:54 PM

3. Existing laws aren't effective, apparently

and that's why federal laws are needed to tackle this problem. For too long, firearms manufacturers in states with loosey-goosey laws on the books are able to produce guns hand-over-fist for export to crime-riddled areas that are fighting a losing battle against gun violence due to the ready availability of firearms:

<snip>

The MAIG Report shows States with weak gun laws produce different outcomes. More
than half the guns recovered in out-of-state crimes last year were supplied by Georgia,
Florida, Texas, Virginia and six other states where weak laws make it easy for gun
traffickers and other criminals to obtain weapons.
Weak gun laws also put a state’s own citizens at risk. There were nearly 60 percent
more gun murders in the 10 states where exports were highest than in the states with
low export rates — and nearly three times as many fatal shootings of law enforcement
officers. The study by the mayors’ group isn't the first to document the link between weak
gun laws and gun violence or the “iron pipeline” by which guns flow from states with
weak gun laws into states with strong ones. Still, the numbers are startling. They explain
why the gun lobby resisted their release, and they provide a powerful retort to those who
claim tougher gun laws don’t work.

http://www.lwvil.org/IB_09/IB_GunViolence_09.pdf

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:01 PM

8. The laws are Federal

10 years for straw purchasing- they are not enforced very often.

I question MAIGs credibility- how many felons are on their roles these days, I've lost count. More than a couple are gun related IIRC.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:06 PM

10. I'm referring primarily to weak state laws

and as for the MAIG reference...you got anything to back up that assertion that doesn't emanate from some RW shithole? Please DO take your time in order that you don't waste mine.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:18 PM

12. Truth is not true

if reported by the RW? OK how about wiki:
People on the list who were not currently acting mayors


One criticism of the coalition is that it has inflated its membership roster, claiming members that never joined the organization, or individuals that are no longer in office, although in many cases their successors have also joined.
The following 28 individuals, listed on the Mayors Against Illegal Guns web site's member roster in September 2009 were not at the time the current mayors of the towns, cities, and boroughs listed:
Matthew J. Avara – Pascagoula, Mississippi
Jean M. Benson – Palm Desert, California
Cary Bozeman – Bremerton, Washington
Jim Brown – Lockland, Ohio
Joseph J. Cisco – Ellwood City, Pennsylvania—Still listed on MAIG site, as of Jan. 16, 2009
James C. DiNardo – Hazlet, New Jersey
Joseph V. Doria, Jr. – Bayonne, New Jersey
John Glanzer – Newberry, Florida
Andrew G. Humphrey – Wayzata, Minnesota
Richard H. Hyde – Waukegan, Illinois
Jack Killion – Pennsauken, New Jersey
Joseph S. Kroll – Haverhill, Florida
Eugene Kulick – Little Falls, New Jersey
Raymond Marin – North Miami Beach, Florida—Still listed on MAIG site, as of Jan. 16, 2009
Bruce Malcolm – Fernandina Beach, Florida—Still listed on MAIG site, as of Jan. 16, 2009
Lorraine H. Morton – Evanston, Illinois
Rita L. Mullins – Palatine, Illinois
Mark Roberts – Douglass, Kansas
Heinz Rodgers – Edwardsville, Kansas
Marc Searl – Hemet, California
Joseph D. Serrano, Sr. – Santa Fe Springs, California
David Shumaker – Bristol, Tennessee
Emilia M. Siciliano – Shrewsbury, New Jersey—Still listed on MAIG site, as of Jan. 16, 2009
David C. Strong – Winter Park, Florida
Gary Van Eyll – Chaska, Minnesota
Bill Welch – State College, Pennsylvania (died)
Carl Wilkes – Merriam, Kansas
William P. “Will” Wynn – Austin, Texas


Some members of MAIG have been convicted of crimes. These include:
Baltimore, MD - Mayor Sheila Dixon.
Hartford, CT - Mayor Eddie Perez.
Racine, WI - Mayor Gary Becker.
East Haven, CT - Mayor April Capone Almon.
Detroit, MI - Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.
Guttenberg, NJ - Mayor Delle Donna
Jackson, MS - Mayor Frank Melton
Passaic, NJ - Mayor Samuel Rivera
Austin, TX - Mayor Will Wynn
Jersey City, NJ - Mayor Jerremiah Healy
Birmingham, AL - Mayor Larry Langford
Inglewood, CA - Mayor Roosevelt F. Dorn
White Plains, NY - Mayor Adam Bradley
Port St. Lucie, FL - Mayor Patricia Christensen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Mayors_Against_Illegal_Guns_Coalition

I included a bonus list of falsely claimed members

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:26 PM

15. In that case, those convicted should not be voting members of that org

but it still doesn't negate the work done in an effort to reduce gun violence.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:33 PM

18. To me

it brings their integrity into question. I do not expect an advocacy group to be even handed, MAIG any moreso than the NRA. It begs the question of what is their actual agenda.
Falsifying membership, failing to condemn their own who violate their raison d'etre, founded and backed by a billionaire with less than even views on civil rights... Is MAIG just another hypocritical 1% elitist promotion group?

As for reducing gun trafficking- I support vigorous enforcement of existing Federal laws and expanding NCIS to all sales, whether done at Fededral or state level

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:48 PM

23. So, what - in your estimation - IS the true agenda of this billionaire-founded organization?

Seems like a convoluted path to take in order to curtail civil rights.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:07 PM

25. Same as the NRA

$$Money$$

Prey on the fears and beliefs of a large segment if the population, build the bank account for the benefit of core members to influence positions of power and push policies favored by leadership. Such policies may be aligned with the stated purpose or not.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:27 PM

16. well then that is a state issue

Federal laws are already there they just need to be enforced and that enforcement needs to be fully funded.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:37 PM

20. Yes, and those weak state laws are the problem

and if it were a matter of enforcing laws already on the books, they obviously don't supersede those weak state laws. Those federal laws to which you allude are in urgent need of serious beefing-up and enforcement.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:02 PM

31. Felons ??....your list below has Class C misdemeanors for one....

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Response to pkdu (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:21 PM

34. I did not say they are all felons yet

a rate of ~2.5% criminal convictions is rather high, considering these are elected officials.

By comparison the permit revocation rate for handgun carriers varies between .04 to .8%. It is something of apples to oranges as revocation can be for reasons other than criminal offense and some criminal convictions do not result in revocation.

My point is I view MAIG as no better than the NRA, one harbors criminals and supports civil rights limits the other is run by lunatics and supports RW causes.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:50 PM

2. we should tear up Interstate 95 right out of the ground

 

"if it will save just one child"

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:56 PM

6. Let's not get hasty

How about enacting federal laws *FIRST* that tackle the issue at hand?

Reductio ad absurdum is teh fail.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:55 PM

4. Why not back up even farther and take a good, hard look at the weapons manufactures themselves.

 

This country is awash in guns of all kinds. The black market is a very lucrative market. The black market also has a large share of brand new guns, still in the original shipping cartons. How did they get to be on the black market in the first place? Investigate that! But be prepared to put a dent in our GNP.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:55 PM

5. There should be a crack down on arms trafficking.

quit wasting police resources on the "war on drugs" and focus on violent crime.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:59 PM

7. So..... random stops on I-95?

How exactly does one go about shutting down the 'iron pipeline'?













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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:01 PM

9. Starting with federal laws

that supersede the weak laws in some states would be a good start. If the guns aren't being manufactured hand-over-fist for the 'export market' in the first place, that seems more sensible than trying to intercept them on I-95, dontcha think?

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:20 PM

13. So, to shut down the 'iron pipeline'

you shut down all manufacture and commerce in the specific field? Remind me not to ask you to trim my toenails when you are riding a bush-hog.





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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:29 PM

17. Nice attempt to put words in my mouth

Did I say anywhere that I want to 'shut down all manufacture and commerce in the specific field'? No, I did not. If you'd bothered to ask whether I wanted to shut down illegal trafficking, then I would say, 'hell YES!'

The hyperbole is strong with this one.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:43 PM

21. ok, i asked, and got what I read above, so, tell me....

How does one shut down illegal trafficking?

I do not doubt that you want to shut it down, I want to shut it down, the question is....... How do you shut down the 'iron pipeline'.





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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:58 PM

24. I consider holding dealers accountable to be a good start

specifically the minority who account for the lion's share of illegal purchases. Increasing traceability would be another step in the right direction. It's easier to trace the heat number of the tube surrounding any one of the axle shafts on my 4WD vehicle than to determine with accuracy the paper trail on many firearms currently in circulation. Why not impose ISO standards upon the firearms industry? Finally, why not regulate the actual production of firearms on an annual basis? If we're to have a 'well-regulated militia,' what's wrong with regulating the production of those weapons right from the get-go?

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:29 PM

27. FFL dealers?

People who are already under the watchful eye of the BATF and the IRS in the way they conduct their business? How would that be implemented? If the small minority that is already responsible for the illegal purchases are known, why are they not already in trouble?

Improving traceability.. interesting. A more detailed track of serial numbers? RFID chips? Tattoo the serial number of the weapon on the buyers forehead, so the world can see that they have a gun?

ISO standards? Such as?

And of course, regulating production. Of course.

The problem seems to me, criminals, wanting guns in New York are willing to over look a law here and there to get them into their state. Am I right so far?

So, we can assume they are going to do just that. Now, my question is..... how is a safety inspection made of Sturm, Ruger & Company's office in Southport, Connecticut, going to stop the next Colin Ferguson from buying their weapon legally, and going to New York where it will be illegal to posses it?

Isn't the the gist of the who situation? How does one stop the flow of illegal guns, when the very act of importing is illegal in the first place?











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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:06 PM

32. Google Tiahrt amendments....then think about your first paragraph ...

Thoughts ?

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Response to pkdu (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:58 PM

36. Will read more, but the FoP seemed to like it.

Granted, things may have changed..

http://www.fop.net/servlet/display/news_article?id=411&XSL=xsl_pages%2fpublic_news_individual.xsl



I am writing on behalf of the membership of the Fraternal Order of Police to express our strong support for the inclusion of language in the FY 2008 Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies appropriations bill to prohibit disclosure of firearms trace data by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) firearms to non-law enforcement entities.

The FOP has supported this language since the original version was first enacted several years ago because of our concern for the safety of law enforcement officers and the integrity of law enforcement investigations. For example, the disclosure of trace requests can inadvertently reveal the names of undercover officers or informants, endangering their safety. It may also tip off the target of an investigation, as appears to be the case in New York City. According to media reports last year, law enforcement sources cited that as many as "four cases were compromised and an additional 14 were put at risk" by private investigators employed by the city who acted on the basis of trace data. In this case, the investigators conducted "sting" operations for the city's civil suit against several gun stores that had been identified through firearms trace data. As a result, several gun trafficking suspects under investigation by law enforcement changed their behavior to avoid scrutiny. This is exactly the type of interference that caused the FOP to originally support language restricting the use of the data to law enforcement.


(me again), Haven't read the actual amendment wording, and googling supplies links to both for and against. With out reading the actual text, it is too iffy to make a call. Will look after the raid, see if I can form an opinion for you.

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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:07 PM

11. Actually state police already do this when they got intelligence

That a vehicle in transporting guns. This is so similar to the camino de hormigas leading to Mexico it is not even funny. Both need a strict enforcement of current laws and the end of both straw purchases and no background checks.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:26 PM

14. Then it wouldn't be random

it would be specific. Which I applaud. If someone is breaking the law, then the police should stop them and arrest them. I just am asking how, after making a law to make transportation of a firearm into NY illegal ( was under the impression it was already, but I've never been there), how does one go about finding the people doing it? Is it an after charge, to be tacked on and plea bargained down? Is it a charge that after a local jury acquits, the Feds can step in and retry?

Last I heard, there was a whole lotta stuff moving up and down I-95 that wasn't exactly legal.












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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:34 PM

19. It appears that you are missing the point.

If they target I-95, then the "bad guys" will just find another route.

The only way to deal with this issue is to make the laws "universal" on a Federal level. When you have different laws in different states, there will always be an easy way to import illegal items. Only by making the laws uniform can you avoid this.

That is why gun control - along with many other items - MUST be enacted at the Federal level rather than at the State level.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:16 PM

26. Yup

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:40 PM

29. No, I get the point

I just don't see how so many other people, who rage against government control, don't.












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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #29)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:55 PM

30. OK, now I am officially confused.

Were you, in fact, trying to open up serious debate for this issue?

In which case, I salute you!



That is what we need - more SERIOUS debate rather than a bunch of rhetoric.

PS, I still stand by my points!

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:52 PM

35. Yes, serious debate

It was pointed out that we have very loose border restrictions between states, and a certain amount of travel freedom. So, again, how does one stop any, banned item from moving from one state to another, in light of the fact that the mover already knows they are breaking the law?

Some may think the best way is to set check points, (which I suggested), on avenues into the restricted areas. Others, seem (to me at least), want to expand the most restrictive policies from the most restrictive location out to the other states. Then what? Instead of people trafficking guns into NY, they are trafficking into the USSA?

Why not just come down on the people breaking the law, with the fury of a fiery mountain landing on them, instead of dreaming of ways to lock this country down more. On a board that a good size group (knowing the members change, some overlap, ya pick up a few, ya loose a few) wants no boarders, are firmly convinced the police are not just incompetent, but deliberately evil, wants unrestricted access to.. the internet, higher education, housing, health care, food, water, utilities, transportation.. am I missing anything? Anyway, on that board, we have people clamoring to become a police state.

We (collectively) don't trust the federal government to oversee our food, our courts, very little of our 'national defense', it's all a racket. We don't (see preceding sentence) trust the government when it comes to wire taps, surveillance, interrogations, prosecutions or incarcerations. We (above) don't trust elections, legislation, court proceedings, yet some how, if we all just gave up, agreed, if we put our trust in these benevolent law makers, it will be sunshine, and puppies, and people will die at the ripe old age of 250, in their sleep. (Bonus for anyone thinking of how Tyrion Lannister said he wanted to die).

It's not about fighting the gubmit. It's not about 'my precious', or delicate flowers, or any other insult dreamed up. It's not even about deer hunting, or why do you need, or even compensating for a small pecker. It's about consistency.

There was a picture posted earlier, in another thread, showing the 11 Steps to Fascism. Every one of those steps have been covered on this board since I joined many years ago. Each one brings emotions, strong opinions, and core beliefs into play during the discussions. The only problem I see, is that the first 10 generate outrage against, and the last generates desire for.

I know it is an emotional issue. I understand that people are scared and concerned. (well, I'm not, then again, I am a delicate flower, not a scared rabbit ) But, when I hear something must be done, I just think of the Patriot act.




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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:08 PM

38. Some excellent points!

It's not about fighting the gubmit. It's not about 'my precious', or delicate flowers, or any other insult dreamed up. It's not even about deer hunting, or why do you need, or even compensating for a small pecker. It's about consistency.


{emphasis added}

Yes, so we need to do something across the board - something that is effective.

But, when I hear something must be done, I just think of the Patriot act.


Which I take it to mean that a knee-jerk reaction can do more harm than good. If we are to do "something", then it needs to be something that is actually effective, not just some eye-wash measure that makes us feel better even though it is actually harmful.

Is that what you are saying? If so, I could not agree more!

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:02 PM

37. Since the transportation of guns across state laws

makes the crime a Federal offense, with a penalty of 10 years in jail and/or a $250,000 fine, why aren't the laws being enforced?

I haven't met a gun owner yet that wouldn't love to see a crackdown on the illegal sales or transfers of guns. We feel that way about dealers as well. You start tossing illegal dealers, illegal buyers and straw purchasers in jail and you'll see a dent in gun related crime.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:17 PM

39. Which means the laws are ineffective, because they are impossible to enforce.

If the laws are consistent, however, you wouldn't have that problem.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #39)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:29 PM

40. "Impossible to enforce"

don't agree, I think the various Federal agencies responsible for investigating these crimes isn't interested in doing the boring work necessary to prosecute these crimes and because even if they do, the Federal prosecutes are either going to plea bargain it down to time served or not prosecute at all.

I think that the Federal prosecutors and law enforcement supervisors are more interested in the high profile cases because that is what gets them promoted and funded.

But perhaps I'm cynical

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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:36 PM

28. The same way we've stopped pot and cocaine from being smuggled on 95

oh... wait...

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:40 PM

33. Well they do still try by stopping every car with black males in them on 95 that they can

 

never know when you can bust some kid for having a joint.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:47 PM

22. It sounds like NY criminals are the root of the problem.

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