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Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:36 AM

 

Do you agree with Bill Maher's mockery of American masculinity? I think US gun culture is degenerate

Maher criticizes men whose moods depend ‘on how well a 20-year-old kid tackles a 19-year-old kid’

Maher ended his show on Friday night with his theories on defense spending and his belief in a problem in American men’s masculinity.

“New rule: America needs to show it’s the home of the brave by acting like it,” he began.

Maher, who noted that the U.S. defense budget is larger than the defense budgets of the next 13 countries combined, asked, “Let me ask you: if a guy on your block was so frightened of mostly nonexistent prowlers that he spent all his resources on alarm systems and guns and cameras, so much so that he didn’t even have enough money left to maintain his home or send his kids to college, would you call him brave?”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/26/maher-criticizes-men-whose-moods-depend-on-how-well-a-20-year-old-kid-tackles-a-19-year-old-kid/

I think American men are all out of whack about how to express themselves. America's sick degenerate culture is one symptom of this phenomenon.

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Reply Do you agree with Bill Maher's mockery of American masculinity? I think US gun culture is degenerate (Original post)
MightyMopar Jan 2013 OP
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #1
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #2
mn9driver Jan 2013 #5
lame54 Jan 2013 #19
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2013 #72
Hoyt Jan 2013 #7
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #25
glowing Jan 2013 #62
madrchsod Jan 2013 #81
apocalypsehow Jan 2013 #87
nick of time Jan 2013 #8
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #24
Hangingon Jan 2013 #74
madrchsod Jan 2013 #82
madrchsod Jan 2013 #78
NightWatcher Jan 2013 #14
EastKYLiberal Jan 2013 #18
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #21
Th1onein Jan 2013 #85
NewJeffCT Jan 2013 #117
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #27
mindwalker_i Jan 2013 #70
Flatulo Jan 2013 #35
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #37
Flatulo Jan 2013 #38
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #42
Flatulo Jan 2013 #50
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #94
Flatulo Jan 2013 #98
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #99
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #103
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #106
cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #43
Aerows Jan 2013 #112
Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #65
apocalypsehow Jan 2013 #86
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #90
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #91
Throd Jan 2013 #93
bluedigger Jan 2013 #110
Aerows Jan 2013 #113
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #118
mn9driver Jan 2013 #3
SQUEE Jan 2013 #4
LibDemAlways Jan 2013 #15
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #28
LibDemAlways Jan 2013 #52
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #44
Confusious Jan 2013 #102
LibDemAlways Jan 2013 #6
SQUEE Jan 2013 #9
LibDemAlways Jan 2013 #17
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #30
Still Sensible Jan 2013 #63
bemildred Jan 2013 #10
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #54
bemildred Jan 2013 #59
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #73
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #92
DirkGently Jan 2013 #12
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #29
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2013 #13
whathehell Jan 2013 #33
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2013 #71
pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #16
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #64
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #20
FlaGranny Jan 2013 #36
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #45
cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #47
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #80
Moses2SandyKoufax Jan 2013 #89
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #95
Moses2SandyKoufax Jan 2013 #97
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #104
Marr Jan 2013 #122
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #123
logosoco Jan 2013 #22
samsingh Jan 2013 #23
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #26
pasto76 Jan 2013 #48
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #57
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #31
cherokeeprogressive Jan 2013 #55
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #76
Igel Jan 2013 #32
sadbear Jan 2013 #34
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #60
jbone45 Jan 2013 #39
JoeyT Jan 2013 #40
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #41
pasto76 Jan 2013 #51
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #68
Arugula Latte Jan 2013 #46
Duppers Jan 2013 #49
Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #53
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #56
DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #88
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #100
DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #107
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #109
amb123 Jan 2013 #58
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #61
Squinch Jan 2013 #77
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #83
Squinch Jan 2013 #108
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #114
Squinch Jan 2013 #119
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #120
MadrasT Jan 2013 #66
bvar22 Jan 2013 #67
whatchamacallit Jan 2013 #69
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #75
forestpath Jan 2013 #79
Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #84
Skidmore Jan 2013 #96
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2013 #101
valerief Jan 2013 #105
Aerows Jan 2013 #111
NewJeffCT Jan 2013 #115
Taverner Jan 2013 #116
Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #121

Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:39 AM

1. It isn't only men, but whatever. I liked this quote:

"he spent all his resources on alarm systems and guns ..."

Ollie North, anyone? And I mean his personal expenditures.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:40 AM

2. I think one of the degenerate forms of expression is muscle cars

Excessive pride in what one drives is mostly a masculine trait and very deleterious to the national character and well being. Focusing on a particular brand is even worse.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:53 AM

5. I personally think that needlessly long words are the worst offense

Against god, our country and everything good.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:20 AM

19. Personally - Needlessly - Everything...

All fairly long words

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:29 PM

72. Ha!



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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:55 AM

7. Muscle car owners love guns too. What does that tell you?

Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:49 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:54 AM

25. I suggest you ask the OP, that is his thing, not mine

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:41 PM

62. No they don't. Mine is a mustang junky.

For the first time in the longest we don't have a mustang sitting in our driveway. Finally a practical non-gas guzzling small Hyundai Elantra.

That doesn't mean I don't think he won't have one again as a project.

The man has no care for guns of any kind. His best friend was killed by one right next to him. Bullet literally wizzed by his ear.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:24 PM

81. 72 Pontiac formula 400 with side pipe mufflers

like guns for target shooting. i also coached boys and girls soccer.

yup i guess i`m one of those guys.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:20 PM

87. It really burns our phony "professor" that his deadly little pro-NRA hobby gets questioning

in the masculinity department, thus his anger at the OP, what with all the "fan boi" irrelevancy about muscle cars. Rather pathetic, per usual, from the "professor."

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:57 AM

8. Hey, I own one of those fully restored muscle cars.

 

Turns alot of heads when I drive it, which isn't very often, it gets like 7-10 mpg so it usually sits in my garage.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:00 AM

11. Got your goat? BTW, a Mopar can get very good gas mileage like this new 40 mpg Dart

 


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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:53 AM

24. Your fan boi mentality is clear

Have you ever considered the negative impact of it on society as a whole? Fossil fueled cars have been a disaster, and muscle cars the worst of the bunch. The fast/powerful car mentality is excessive juvenile male behavior at best and when found in adults very troubling. Any rational person would wonder why anyone would need one. What is your excuse?

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:36 PM

74. Looks like Mopar has gained now that it is a FIAT

Hope the FIAT legacy - Fix It Again Tony - doesn't attach. Can't wait to see other advances. Maybe a Ram Topolino?

I do not agree with much that Bill Maher says. I don't know anyone who has gone to the extreme he cites.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:27 PM

82. actually chrysler`s us profits bailed out fiat`s european operations

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:17 PM

78. i really would like to own a dart

with engine mods that could be the next best thing to a twin engine go-kart.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:04 AM

14. Stupid men with their guns, penises, football, and cars...

Good thing we still make semen, else we'd all (deservingly so) be shipped away forever???

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:17 AM

18. I'm a male that doesn't find entertainment in sports...

 

One group of men scoring more points than another group of men doesn't affect my life in anyway. The whole idea is preposterous.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:31 AM

21. Football is like a metaphor for war. Here's George Carlin's take

 



Football was a defensible until we found out about the head injuries, now I don't know how it can be defended.

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:08 PM

85. What he said.....

I love George Carlin.

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:51 PM

117. I do think a lot of fans think football is like war

In fact, I remember a story about former Bills coach Marv Levy. He hosted a weekly talk show in the Buffalo area while he was coach there, and a fan would continually call up and criticize Levy and tell him that he needed to be tougher because football was like war...and, Levy responded by saying that he had played football and he had been in war (not sure if it was Korea or Vietnam), and that football was nothing like war. It finally shut the caller up.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:58 AM

27. Thank god!

Nice to see there are some men out there who actually live in the real world.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:13 PM

70. But the theory that men in America (generally) lack bravery

or that their masculinity is "misplaced" explains why football is so popular. Watching it lets them behave, briefly, like they are brave and powerful, on their 12 foot TVs protected by 15 security systems and 4 pit bulls...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:07 PM

35. Some people just admire and appreciate excellent engineering.

I particularly admire and enjoy German cars. As a mechanical engineer, I have an understanding of how well the design teams did their homework.

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:09 PM

37. Last I check, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc are not the muscle cars fan bois drool over

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:14 PM

38. Oh, there's a lot of fan boi-ism over these brands. You'd be surprised how heated the discussions

get over the Audi S4 vs the BMW M3. I prefer to be non-confrontational. They're both quality brands that serve a market of people who are willing to pay more money for a special ride.

I also enjoy iPads, DirecTV, and Eckoness chairs. I appreciate all good design and engineering that happens to fall within my budget.

Professional sports do absolutely nothing for me.

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:22 PM

42. But that is not the same as muscle car fanbois...

I ride motorcycles. My serious distance machine is a BMW so I know that kind of car aficionado

The muscle car bois come from the same failed branch of the family tree that the some of the Hardley-Davidson types come from.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:28 PM

50. Yeah, I think I know the type. When I was a kid, the car to have was the Plymouth Roadrunner.

All the guys who had them bullied the hell out of those who didn't. My first car was a '69 VW Beetle. I bought it used because it was cheap, got good mileage (for that era) and was very easy to work on.

Well, you'd think I'd killed somebody with all the shit I took from the cool kids. I was pretty much ostracized from certain circles.

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:46 PM

94. I've noticed a lot of RBKAer types were bullied and retreat into gun extremism

 

They'd do better with therapy and weight training or martial arts.

The cool kids I hooked up with in my youth were hippies who hated war and the guns that went with it. I never picked up a gun after Vietnam.

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #94)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:29 PM

98. I grew up in a semi-rural area outside Boston. Every family had guns, and most kids had a .22

rifle by the time they were 18. There were a lot of woods to plink in, and everyone hunted. I didn't know any 'cold, dead fingers' types until 20 years later when I joined a gun club. All of the hard-core guys were squarely blue-collar, and they all drove pickup trucks. I don't know if they drove muscle cars back in the day, but they were definitely not Beemer types, and they seemed amused by my Audi, so it's distinctly possible.

I think the big RKBA pushback started with the widespread availability of the AR-15 and the 1994 Clinton AWB, spurred on by the advent of Rush and RW talk radio. In the prelude to that AWB, millions of ARs were put on the streets that would have never been otherwise. It was Clinton's unintended gift to Colt and Bushmaster.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:37 PM

99. Car enthusiasts never theathened their opponents children like the RBKA crowd does

 

I bet the typical Harley owner has a higher credit score, income level and educational level than the typical RBKA extremist.

BTW, what is it you're progressive about?

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #99)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:26 PM

103. Most muscle car types I have known were good ole boys with historical ties to guys who wore white

Then again, my family was from the south

Most gun nuts are much like muscle car nuts. It is a juvenile infatuation. No one needs a muscle car.

I am progressive about many things:
- Womens rights
- GLBT rights
- Education
- Communications and information access
- Taxes and tax laws
- Wealth distribution
- Alternative energy
- Racial equality
- Freedom from religion (and its impacts)
- Reproductive rights
- Privacy
- Self Defense and concealed carry

And that is the short list.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #103)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:07 PM

106. What if your muscle car gets 89 mpg?

 





Oh yeah, Jay is also one of those greasy Mopar nuts.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:22 PM

43. I have a childhood friend who can't stop talking about the Prius's he and his wife drive, and how

EVERYONE should drive one. He goes on and on so much (so does his wife) that in our social circle (mostly composed of childhood friends and their spouses) they are forbidden to talk about their cars... inasmuch as we can forbid topics of discussion.

Excessive pride in what one drives indeed. Masculine? Post an OP about electric cars sometime...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #43)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:49 AM

112. At least they are talking about something positive

instead of harping about negative things. My goodness, you would think that being excited about something that is positive is a bad thing. Self-righteousness is irritating, that's true, but at least it isn't drowning in sorrow, loss and rage.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:45 PM

65. My mother refers to (classic) muscle car owners

as "greasers".

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:16 PM

86. You're *STILL* not really fooling anybody, know it, "professor"?*


*( )

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #86)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:04 PM

90. I smell fungus

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:16 PM

91. Your concern is noted.

And filed away in the same place I store Sarah Palin's views on Russia.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:27 PM

93. As the owner of several guns AND several muscle cars, I can't decide which of you is the bigger tool

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:41 AM

110. Two posts in, and you manage to turn the debate from guns to cars.

Well played, "Professor", well played.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:54 AM

113. Cars have a purpose

that is positive. They transport people and goods.

What good does a gun do besides violence? I think it is deleterious to our national character that some people want to shun a mode of transport and mobility instead of something that kills people, animals and is generally destructive.

Creativity is about making things, improving things, and delighting in creation of things. Destruction is a joy in ... destroying the hard work of other people.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:03 PM

118. I imagine the one of the quickest things we often do when our sacred cow is attacked

I imagine the one of the quickest things we often do when our sacred cow is attacked is to find a false equivalence, pretend it too is a sacred cow, and then attack it for no other sake than attacking it.

I'd guess that too is a trait which is "very deleterious to the national character and well being..." But at the end of the day, I imagine you'll rationalize it to the point of concrete self-validation.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:46 AM

3. The US military budget has little to do with masculinity.

And much to do with the ownership and control of our government by the defense industry.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:53 AM

4. And the ability and need of our elected officials

to point to those juicy contracts and military bases as helping out the people of their states and districts.
Just another twisted argument of trickle down bullshit.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:07 AM

15. In Ventura County, CA, thousands work at the local base. That and local government

positions make up the bulk of employment opportunities here not counting the minimum wage jobs available at the outlet mall. Little else going on, and I suspect that's the case many places since most manufacturing has been shipped overseas and service-sector jobs outsourced. Not saying I approve. Just saying that's what it's come to.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:59 AM

28. There are actually a couple there, Point Mugu and Port Hueneme

Though they are now merged administratively.

Mugu almost got closed in the last BRAC round and when the E-2 is replaced, it will close. Its employment numbers are dropping with new work going to China Lake and elsewhere within NAVAIR, and while it is the largest single employer in Ventura, it is far from dominant. Its presence is also limiting development and there is a growing number of people wanting to see it closed so the nearby land can be developed.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:29 PM

52. Yep, the joint bases are the largest single employer in the county.

Walk through any parking lot anywhere in the county and count the number of base stickers on cars. It's huge. Have no idea what anyone would want to do with the land. There are already huge numbers of unoccupied office buildings everywhere. Building more houses/apartments/condos would create housing for people whose jobs would more than likely require a hefty commute. I've lived in Ventura County for over 30 years and confidently agree with Gertrude Stein's comment about Oakland. "There is no there there."

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:23 PM

44. Plenty of men exhibit their masculinity vicariously via chickenhawkism

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:44 PM

102. A woman I used to know

Said she was proud to be an American because we had a strong military, which I thought was sad.

it's not just men voting for chicken hawks.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:54 AM

6. The military and the contractors who feed it are

make work for millions in this country. Cutting the whole bloated complex down to size would create massive unemployment and an economic crisis. Will never happen.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:58 AM

9. So continuation of a war machine, with our tax dollars, and the blood of our children

is what you propose? The continuation of the growth of the MIC, as it infiltrates even the law enforcement of our nation, this is what is happening.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:12 AM

17. I don't like it any more than you. It's like a cancer that has

spread and is killing the country. But the military is glorified. Every sporting event I've been too recently showcases the "hero" of the game - a soldier in uniform. And people applaud wildly. It's so much a part of the culture that few even question it.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:00 PM

30. However, it can be reduced slowly over time by attrition

and that is what needs to happen.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:42 PM

63. Precisely n/t

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:59 AM

10. It's our culture, not our gender.

There is no such thing as "American men", just hundreds of millions of men who happen to live here, as varied as pebbles on the beach.

That said. Yeah, I was born right at the end of WWII, and we have changed a lot. We are a DECADENT CULTURE, it's all around us, take a look.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:30 PM

54. good points - I agree nt

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:36 PM

59. Hey.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #59)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:34 PM

73. Thanks! Hey back!

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Response to bemildred (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:17 PM

92. Exactly. Thank you. n/t

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:03 AM

12. It's not just men. Our whole culture is a 13-yr-old boy.


Chicks 'n guns 'n firetrucks F-yeah!

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:59 AM

29. +10.000

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:04 AM

13. Maher always thinks outside the box. His hypothesis, that men have been neutered

to some degree which intensifies their need to "act out" by putting more emphasis on guns and contact sports is very interesting. The man is definitely on another plane and I love hearing what he comes up with next.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:42 PM

33. Yes, well, his misogyny is well documented, so I'm not surprised at the "neutering" BS

Bill Maher, funny & spot on as he is at times, seems to have "issues"

with women and he's admitted as much himself.

As he once told an audience "Even

my friend's wives don't like me".

There's a reason for that, Bill: In case you've not noticed,

people (Yes, Bill, women are people) tend to

dislike being demeaned by slurs and stereotypes.


.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:23 PM

71. I think you are right about his personal issues with women for sure.

I also think his crudity is weirdly juxtaposed with serious subject matter. Guests don't know what hit them at times and they don't know whether to scowl or laugh.

But, I do think his point about today's man can be looked at objectively without regard to his feelings and issues. Like, completely remove the subject from Bill and make believe someone else said it.

I believe that men (and women) can do anything. But, I also believe that there are innate characteristics of each sex. Centuries ago a women was primarily the nurturer and the man the hunter gatherer. Times have changed almost completely for most people. How do these sometimes unfulfilled primal instincts display themselves today? How have children and husbands changed with less nurturing provided by the wife/mother? How have children and wives changed with less provided to them by the father solely?

Or do they?

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:11 AM

16. I remember tons of wannabe Rambos popping up in the '80s

It started after the dedication of the Wall was televised in '82 and then the re-dedication with the addition of the Hart statue of the "Three fightin Men" in '84, then the first Rambo movie in '86. VN vets had gone from being called "baby-killers" to being forgotten to being seen as heroes, and suddenly tons of wannabe, phony VN vets came out of the woodwork.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:44 PM

64. I noticed it after 9/11 too. All of the camouflage gear men were wearing, like they had just finished

a tour. Ha, most of them were lucky to find pants big enough to go around their fat belly ... and were sooo out of shape ... but there they stood, smug in the camouflage pants and shirts. Wannabees all.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:29 AM

20. I think we live in a bully culture. In basketball it isnt "have a competitive game" but

how badly can you humiliate the opponent. Slam dunking while crashing on top of an opponent is really in-your-face and the crowd loves it and the referees reward it.

The USofA has been bullying other countries for decades if not centuries. Bullying is rampant in our schools and even here in DU.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:08 PM

36. I generally agree

about the culture, but regarding basketball - it's nothing like it used to be. My dad played basketball as a teen and young man in the 1910's. He told me it was a whole heck of a lot rougher than it is today. It was way more of a "contact sport" like football in those days, body checking, tripping, and more, and without fouls being called. So basketball is more civilized than it once was.

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:24 PM

45. I agree that it was tougher in the past but today it's all about domination.

Slam dunks themselves are about domination and "in-your-face" humiliation.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:26 PM

47. How does a referee in ANY sport "reward" a participant, especially in basketball?

Does he point to the scorer's table and instruct the scorer to add a few points for a particular behavior?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:23 PM

80. If you were to stand within two feet of Michael Jordon going to the basket

Michael was rewarded with a free throw. I havent watched much basketball since they started that.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:50 PM

89. LOL, "I haven't watched a game since 1992, but I'm gonna tell you EVERYTHING I don't like about it"!

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Response to Moses2SandyKoufax (Reply #89)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:48 PM

95. Can you spell intellectual dishonesty?

You choose not to refute what I said but try to shut me down with ridicule. Go start a fight with someone else.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:15 PM

97. I didn't refute what you said

because it's one of the more common bullshit excuses people use when they denigrate pro basketball.

Almost every criticism I've heard directed toward the NBA has fallen into the following categories:

1) I haven't watched a game since Larry Bird/Pete Maravich/Jack Sikma/Luc Longley/Insert any "try hard white guy" retired!

2) They don't call traveling!!!!

3) It's like street/jungle ball out there!

4) Too much dunking! It's a team game, not an "and 1" tournament!

5) The college game has better fundamentals, and the players have more heart, passion, and hustle!

6) Too many thugs!!! Too "urban"!!! (read: too black)

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Response to Moses2SandyKoufax (Reply #97)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:28 PM

104. Good job. Play the race card and shut off the discussion. You totally missed my original point

about bullying and appear to be trying to make this about race. Sorry, but discussion is over.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:30 PM

122. I think I'd have to agree.

You find that theme all over our entertainment, but since we're talking basketball, I'm reminded of our Olympic "Dream Team" from a few years back.

I thought it was a bit embarrassing and in bad taste to send a collection of full-time, professional athletes to the Olympics to play a predominantly US sport against amateurs, personally. But my fellow Americans seemed to eat it up. They loved the blowouts.

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Response to Marr (Reply #122)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:48 PM

123. Yes and they called it the "Dream Team" and we bullied the other teams. In fact

I think Charles Barkley got in a fight with a competitor.

Our country is all about bullying. Now of course the good guys are allowed to bully. That's always the rationalization. That's the rationalization I am sure Zimmerman used. In DU we have quit a group that love to bully suspected trolls and grave dance when they are run off.

Bullying is rampant in our schools and we have a hard time dealing with it because it's ingrained in being Americans. Monroe Doctrine is a good example as well as taking Texas and California from Mexico. And of course Iraq.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:44 AM

22. I liked this clip and was amused at some comments I saw on Facebook.

Granted, I am a female and like baseball and I do not understand football (or the need to own a weapon that sprays bullets).
I liked how he compared people watching football to cats. I will never be able to watch people watching football the same.

Just watching football makes my bones hurt.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:46 AM

23. he's right

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:57 AM

26. It's all about $$$$$ and the MIC. Weapons, war and deaths are big money and the MIC loves lots of

$$$$$.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:26 PM

48. right. another conspiracy. it cant be that most american males out there are really large babies

and honestly, part of the problem is how we deal with fighting. Every tough guy out there knows that he can talk all the shit he wants, have all the baseless attitude that he is a badass, but if somebody actually knocks the shit out of them, the first thing they do is call the cops. Assault is a serious charge. and an effective enough deterrent to keep me from punching somebody on my job who is generating a life threatening hazard to me and my co-workers.

Ive had my butt kicked a couple times. And you know what, upon internal examination, I deserved most of them. But I try and be honest with myself so I can be honest with others. I dont believe my own lies and fantasies like almost every other male I know.

dont get me wrong, I lived the consequence that the money powers that be have in this country and it is completely fucked. but the addiction americans have with being a 'badass' is more organic and homegrown that the general MIC conspiracy.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:33 PM

57. Quite true, particularly your last sentence!

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:01 PM

31. That was so right on. I find that there are very few real men out there.

Just a bunch of pathetic adolescent boys. It's very disheartening.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:32 PM

55. C'mon... give us something to aspire to.

Pray tell, what's your definition of a "real man"?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:15 PM

76. Someone who is just completely himself without all the macho posturing and

props to puff up his masculinity. Just be who you are - embrace both the masculine and feminine aspects of your personality and don't try so hard to suppress one and glorify the other. (Speaking to men in general, not just you - for all I know, you might be what I refer to as a "real man" anyway.)

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:24 PM

32. I think that "gun culture" has the same status as "gangster culture" or "drug culture".

It's a nice overgeneralization based on a small sample that ignores the fact that there are lots of different reasons, groups, interests involved. There are a lot of stakeholders, a lot of approaches, and it makes for a lot of mess and complication. We can't handle mess and complication.

So we do it because we really want to denigrate those that we disagree with. As soon as you marginalize them you can say you've disqualified your opponent (and you feel better about yourself). Disqualification is better than beating on every count--you win but don't actually have to fight. I mean, if you want to run for an election it's best to disqualify all your opponents so you're the last candidate left on the ballot.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:45 PM

34. Don't these same republicans tell us this is how Ronald Reagan defeated the Soviet Union?

By forcing them to spend so much money on defense that they couldn't afford anything else? Isn't that what we're doing now?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #34)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:36 PM

60. It is exactly what we are doing now...

And if we don't quit the consequences will be much worse.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:14 PM

39. BillMaherFanHere

 

I normally agree with Bill and this case is no exception. When I disagree he still makes me think. In this case he does make a valid point - 'Manpower' here in the USA is measured all the wrong factors and this created our gun-loving, war-mongering culture.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:16 PM

40. Maher is a wanker.

His main gripe is generally that men can't treat women like they deserve to be treated, so we have to fake our masculinity in other ways. And by "deserve to be treated" he doesn't mean "With the respect and dignity half of humanity deserves.".

There are plenty of ways to criticize military, gun, and sports culture that don't involve paraphrasing raging misogynists.

Edited to add: The quotations around deserve to be treated are a quote of the previous sentence that are a paraphrase of Maher's common whines and not an indication of a direct quote from Maher himself.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:20 PM

41. These "men" have the emotional maturity of a 12yo boy.

We have raised 3 consecutive generations of emotionally stunted men who channel their masculinity into violence and misogyny rather than bravery and chivalric behavior.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #41)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:29 PM

51. right on. basic respect has been largely lost

think it comes after the WWII generation? they fought and worked so hard, and if they were like my parents, they did that so I didnt have to. Ive had a much easier life than my parents. But I dont think that makes me special.

I think you hit the tip of the iceberg. I believe that current american culture is toxic to veterans, and is part of the reason we have our suicide epidemic.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #51)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:07 PM

68. I think it starts with folks born in the 30s.

The so-called "Silent" Generation between the WW2 generation and the Boomers. You had a lot of frustrated young men who missed out on the military glory their elders got, even though many of them fought in Korea. Then during the 60s and 70s they had such massive mid-life crises that the notion of a mid-life crisis comes from them, many of them emotionally regressed, that his had a negative impact on their Boomer and Gen-X kids.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:24 PM

46. Creepy gun fetishists abound.

*warning for the prudish on the link below*

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:30 PM

53. Americans are quite primitive in this respect.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:32 PM

56. I do

Many American men define their masculinity in sports and as spectators of them. Remember in Rome the Colosseum was the circus for the masses. That is what is America today.

Now many American woman define their femininity through their movie/tv/magazine mold of beautiful women.

I just wish that there would be as much money pumped into education and the glorification of being a doctor/nurse/teacher/ policeman/fireman /scientist.
There is no encouragement and money to educate kids. Some states want to discourage cognitive thinking. Everything is dumbed down.

Instead there are beauty contests and sports which are glorified and scholarships and prizes given to the best looking and best playing. and what is galling is that actual criminal offenses are overlooked, as in the football players who rape women/girls. I is all about the individual being better than the whole.

Just today in the NYT there is an article about how guns are being pushed on kids...Bushmasters are being advertised for kids to ask for at Christmas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/us/selling-a-new-generation-on-guns.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130127&_r=1&pagewanted=all&


America is getting more sick each day...it seems as the decay of the Roman empire is upon the American nation. My history teacher always said that Empires implode from corruption and lack of education..

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:23 PM

88. In all fariness


"Many American men define their masculinity in sports and as spectators of them. Remember in Rome the Colosseum was the circus for the masses. That is what is America today. "

In all fairness, as someone who fondly remembers the Stanley Cup where the Calgary Flames and my Tampa Bay Lightning fought, I can say many canucks love violent sports, especially the great game of Hockey.

But the issue was about GUNS, something which thankfully you Canadians did get a handle on, but the point is, to demonize Sports is foolish, becuase if anything, it provides an outlet for the same Hunter-Gatherer instincts that, if not given an outlet, might manifest themselves in other ways. The problem with America is that the Empire which founded us wanted killers, wanted people to blast and die, and then when America broke off, that cycle of kill kill kill never got shut down, whereas in Canada, it got discouraged (unless you were kicking Acadians out of Nova Scotia.)

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #88)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:20 PM

100. In all fairness

Canadians are not as crazy for hockey as Americans are for football.

as for the Acadians...that was a bit long ago.

The Expulsion (1755–1763) occurred during the French and Indian War, the North American theatre of the Seven Years War.4

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #100)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 03:55 AM

107. I normally like you

But it seems I touched a nerve, especially as if so many Canucks came down to watch the cup, it is fair to assume that they are fans,especially since many of the Canadians ranted about how we did not deserve an NHL team, despite setting the NHL record for attendance, and being made up of former ranger,flyer, and islander fans.

I will confess, while I do admire Canada, and feel there is much you could teach we Yanks, I do sometimes get the "we are so much better than thou" aura. Thankfully, folks like Stephen Harper are doing a lot to remove such illusions, as W. did to remove ours.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #107)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:14 AM

109. i know we can get very enthusiastic with our sports

I was into the baseball world series when the Blue Jays were in. But I didn't live for it. I judge this from watching my relatives in the states. When football is in season there is just talk of football. They live it. I watched one relative watch a football game nervously. He had bet a thousand dollars on the game. He us is not by any means. There seems to be more gambling stateside on sports.

You are right about harper. He is bush mini me. Next election my goal is to make sure his party is not in the majority. He has got us reved up again and ready to get him out.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:34 PM

58. Yes. And I don't need a gun to "prove" that I am a man.

I have a penis and two testicles. That's all I need to be a man.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:40 PM

61. Part of it is the post-WWII "We're king of the World" mentality....

We had the bomb, anyone who messes with us,....BOOM!

Republicans in particular are into that mindset. Naturally, they want the home game version.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:17 PM

77. I agree, but I think more of it is the aftermath of that. We USED to be king of the world. Now

we face economic competition; we kind of suck at healthcare in comparison to other countries; we are told we are failures in education; employment is fundamentally different in that fewer men have jobs that they are proud of and that contribute to their families well being as they feel they should. As a country, we feel ourselves slipping a bit from that post WWII position. I think there is fear about that, and men whose identities are tied up with being "red blooded American men" feel it.

I think a lot of this vicarious masculinity is to fend off that fear.

I'm sure women have some coping mechanism for this too, but I can't right now think of what it is.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:56 PM

83. The government got women on board during the Cold War through the myth of breeding camps.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #83)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:48 AM

108. What is that?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #108)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:38 PM

114. There was a myth the government put out that when the Soviets rolled in,...

....one of their first acts would be to round up all the women and take them away to become little more than slip-and-slides for the soldiers.

Keep in mind that this was back in the days when being prim and proper was all the rage. You know, before moms had tribal tattoos on their lower back.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #114)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:03 PM

119. Interesting, but I don't think that's an equivalent. It would have to be something women are

doing now in reaction to fears that our country might be losing its primacy, and within that scenario we are losing some part of our feminine identity. On thinking about it, I just don't think there is an equivalent.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #119)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:51 PM

120. These guys are obsessed with Americas virility....

That's why they want to invade places with oily holes.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:55 PM

66. More bullshit sexist drivel from Maher.

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:04 PM

67. I loved Maher's closing segment!

I wouldn't stop at just guns and sports, but conspicuous consumption at every level. There are birds who attract mates by collecting and displaying shiny pieces of trash.
Henry Kissinger, one of our species most physically unattractive males,
who once said ""Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."
He never had any trouble getting laid.
Unfortunately, his quest for Penis Enhancement led to the deaths of millions of innocents.


The problem is that none of these Penis Enhancers work unless they are displayed in public.
Hence, we have the sporting arenas,
the muscle cars (including the high priced spreads Mercedes, BMW, Cadillacs, suburban SUVs stc),
and the enormous nests (overly large and inefficient homes),
and the public display guns, especially the appeal of the assault rifles.


But we shouldn't stop there.
We should also look at the companion element.
The males of our culture wouldn't have this obsession with Penis Extenders,
if they didn't work.
If these behaviors were unsuccessful at attracting females,
these behaviors would have been eliminated through natural selection long ago.

So this is not simply an aberration of the male gender that has occurred in a vacuum.
It is literally being Cheered On from the sidelines by the females of our species
who reward the best Penis Enhancements with sexual favors,
usually from the female who has the best enhanced breasts,
or judged most f**kable in stage contests where females compete with each other for the privilege.




Is it little wonder that we are destroying ourselves?

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:12 PM

69. Yes. n/t

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:40 PM

75. what's wrong with serious locks and alarms? probably cheaper than guns

there's a lot of FALSE bravado going around...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022123321

more mockery ^^^

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:20 PM

79. I could not agree more.

 

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:05 PM

84. What "sick degenerate culture"?

I hear that shit and I think it's 1978 and I'm listening to a roundtable of Anita Bryant, Phylis Shlafly, and Jerry Falwell, complaining about sex and pot smoking. I don't think America has a "sick degenerate culture". I look at stuff like the homophobia of just 20-30 years ago and where we're at today, for instance, and I actually think the culture is doing just fine TYVM.

edited to add: Gun culture, yes. Culture in general? No.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:52 PM

96. This is when you point out to those who think that media has no

skin in the game when it comes to influencing people and their actions to take the blinders off. How are those images marketed and perpetuated?

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:30 PM

101. This country has been conditioned from cradle to grave

to be fearful and afraid of almost everything and to use violence as the solution.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:32 PM

105. Maher is right except about the WAR budget. That's just THIEVES stealing money from the Treasury. nt

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:46 AM

111. He's right on

We've forgotten how to be safe, it seems. When you live your life on edge and in fear, it makes you a much worse person. What happened to enjoying life, enjoying the people you surround yourself with, and prospering? You prosper when you create, when you are safe, and when you can depend on other people.

Being a lone gunman is not a good thing. It doesn't lead to prosperity and a good life. It leads to being a bitter, angry human being that gets caught in a cycle of fear, anger and loss.

We as human beings can do much better than this, and it is with kindness, joy and creativity that we do so.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:45 PM

115. There are plenty of other cultures that love their sports

Fans in Europe are just as crazy about sports like football (soccer) and rugby as Americans are of football.

And, read some stories of college basketball players that weren't good enough for the NBA and go overseas to play and you'll see how crazy some of the overseas fans get about basketball - it makes fans here look calm & reserved in many cases.

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:48 PM

116. He was spot on

 

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Response to MightyMopar (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:58 PM

121. Yup. He's the closest thing we have to a pop-culture genius.

We pay 500 elected reps big $$$ to sit around DC alone ( not to mention thousands of their congressional aides, etc) and not a one EVER says ANYTHING as penetrating, educational or insightful about ANYTHING as he just did in two and a half minutes.

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