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Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:24 PM

Even gangsters live in fear of Japan’s gun laws by Jake Adelstein

Last edited Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

“You have to bring your rifle in every year for inspection. You have to pass a drug test. You can’t have a criminal record. A doctor has to certify you’re mentally and physically healthy. You have to actually go to the firing range and show that you can use the weapon. If you have any sort of issue, we’re going to take away your firearms,” Detective X said.

“Sometimes, police officers even go to the neighborhoods where a gun owner lives and interview neighbors to make sure the owner isn’t causing problems or having issues with his spouse,” he added.

However, the focus is not only on ensuring gun owners don’t misuse their weapons, but also on getting rid of what the police call nemuri-ju (sleeping guns).

“There are not many hunters left now and many people get too old to use their weapons. If they can’t fire them properly, they get taken away. The fewer guns that are out there, the safer Japan is. That’s how we look at it,” Detective X explained.

-skip-

Under current laws, if a low-level yakuza is caught with a gun and bullets that match, he’ll be charged with aggravated possession of firearms and will then face an average seven-year prison term. Simply firing a gun carries a penalty of three years to life. And for the “accomplice” reasons above, a yakuza boss may decide a death sentence is more appropriate if his thug miraculously gets released on bail before going to jail.

One mid-level yakuza boss told me, “Having a gun now is like having a time bomb. Do you think any sane person wants to keep one around the house?”

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/news/even-gangsters-live-in-fear-of-japans-gun-laws/

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Reply Even gangsters live in fear of Japan’s gun laws by Jake Adelstein (Original post)
farminator3000 Jan 2013 OP
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #1
pipoman Jan 2013 #2
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #3
marybourg Jan 2013 #4
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #28
AsahinaKimi Jan 2013 #38
marybourg Jan 2013 #48
pipoman Jan 2013 #6
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #13
pipoman Jan 2013 #15
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #17
pipoman Jan 2013 #20
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #22
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #23
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #49
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #50
freshwest Jan 2013 #24
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #40
freshwest Jan 2013 #43
DanTex Jan 2013 #33
thucythucy Jan 2013 #35
freshwest Jan 2013 #44
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #39
pipoman Jan 2013 #57
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #58
pipoman Jan 2013 #59
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #63
pipoman Jan 2013 #68
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #69
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #64
pipoman Jan 2013 #70
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #32
pipoman Jan 2013 #60
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #73
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #42
pipoman Jan 2013 #62
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #46
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #51
redqueen Jan 2013 #55
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #61
Skip Intro Jan 2013 #5
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #9
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #18
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #21
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #26
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #53
Berserker Jan 2013 #7
Electric Monk Jan 2013 #10
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #14
quaker bill Jan 2013 #25
Locrian Jan 2013 #74
quaker bill Jan 2013 #75
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #27
freshwest Jan 2013 #45
legaleagle_45 Jan 2013 #47
Electric Monk Jan 2013 #8
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #11
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #12
EastKYLiberal Jan 2013 #16
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #19
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #29
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #30
no_hypocrisy Jan 2013 #31
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #41
arendt Jan 2013 #76
no_hypocrisy Jan 2013 #77
arendt Jan 2013 #78
no_hypocrisy Jan 2013 #79
DanTex Jan 2013 #34
AsahinaKimi Jan 2013 #36
sadbear Jan 2013 #37
clydefrand Jan 2013 #52
mike_c Jan 2013 #54
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #56
LittleBlue Jan 2013 #65
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #66
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #67
krispos42 Jan 2013 #71
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #72

Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:28 PM

1. Can't argue with their murder rate

 

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:46 PM

2. They do have a bit of a suicide problem however..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:50 PM

3. In Japanese culture there is a long history of honorable suicide, such as ritual suicide by Samurai

In Japanese culture there is a long history of honorable suicide, such as ritual suicide by Samurai to avoid being captured, flying one's plane into the enemy during WWII, or charging into the enemy fearlessly to prevent bringing shame on one's family. 7 wiki

good thing they don't have guns, it would be A LOT worse, huh?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:54 PM

4. Harakiri. It even has a name.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:13 AM

28. Seppuku. Harakiri is sort of slang. /nt

 

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:45 AM

38. You are correct..

The correct term is Seppuku. Usually carried out by the Samurai after receiving orders from the Daimyo.

Women of the Samurai house hold would commit Harakiri if their home was taken over by an rival enemy. It was more honorable for them to fight, but if they could not, they were told by the head of the household to take their own life, rather than fall into the hands of their enemies.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:39 PM

48. They wouldn't have so many names if it weren't ingrained

in their culture. Like Inuit with snow names.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:56 PM

6. Yeah, I don't think so..

in a society there are desperate, depressed people who consider and follow through with suicide. Nobody commits suicide because of the presence of a gun, thus the list of 30+ countries which exceed the US suicide rate mostly are gun free societies..no, the method isn't the reason for the act of suicide, therefore the presence of guns has no more effect than the presence of rope.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:05 AM

13. that is terrible logic.

shooting yourself is the same as taking pills?

go away. that is just plain foolish.

when is the last time a person took out themselves AND 30 others with a bottle of pills?

or a rope?

or threw 30 people off a building?

you are a broken record.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:13 AM

15. I didn't know we were talking about

"the last time a person took out themselves AND 30 others". I thought we were talking about suicide..you know the 15-20 thousand suicides in the US every year, not the 10 who do rampage shootings. And what logic do you use to get to the conclusion that guns have anything to do with a person's decision to kill themselves?

Oh, and yes..shooting one's self and taking pills are simply different methods to the same result..the gun suicide didn't happen any more because of the gun than the pill suicide happened because of the pills..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:53 AM

17. 16% of gun owners leave their guns loaded and unlocked

and it is a lot faster and easier. simple physics, really.

what logic do you use that they DON'T? see the one that says 'leaving only questions'?

last 6 days (partial list)

Washington (DC) Post
Murder-suicide disturbing trend among the elderly
Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:35 PM EST

Phoenix (AZ) azcentral.com -
Police: Laveen deaths likely murder-suicide
Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:07 PM EST

Tampa (FL) Tribune -
Tampa police dispatcher victim of apparent murder-suicide
Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:10 PM EST

Buffalo (NY) WKBW -
93-Year-Old Man Accused of Killing 95-Year-Old Wife in Failed Murder-Suicide, Police Say
Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:21 PM EST

St. Petersburg (FL) Times -
Hillsborough deputies investigating apparent murder-suicide
Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:10 PM EST

Las Vegas (NV) Review-Journal -
Murder-suicide took ’Wonder Woman,’ leaving only questions
Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:19 AM EST

Kansas City (MO) KMBC -
Prosecutors charge husband in murder, attempted suicide
Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:18 PM EST

ABC News-National -
Murder-Suicide Cop Shot Wife, Child in Head
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:20 AM EST

Kansas City (MO) KCTV -
Police: 1 dead, 1 injured in possible murder, attempted suicide
Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:18 AM EST

Las Vegas (NV) KLAS -
Woman had Affair Months Before Murder-Suicide
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:19 PM EST

Boston (MA) Globe - Rhode Island - More Headlines
Police: husband called 911 before murder-suicide
Tue Jan 22, 2013 06:25 AM EST

Providence (RI) WJAR
Police: Warwick deaths treated as murder-suicide
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:25 PM EST

Buffalo (NY) WKBW
Man Kills Estranged Wife, Self in Apparent Murder-Suicide During Daughter’s Birthday Party, Police Say
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:21 PM EST

Sarasota (FL) Herald-Tribune
Parrish girl, 10, dead after apparent murder-suicide
Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:10 AM EST

Fort Worth (TX) Star-Telegram -
Estranged husband, wife killed in murder-suicide in Grapevine, police say
Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:27 PM EST

Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer -
Two dead in apparent S. Phila. murder-suicide
Sat Jan 19, 2013 03:24 AM EST

Jerusalem Post - Middle East -
Eritrean man nabbed over botched suicide, murder
Sun Jan 13, 2013 09:24 AM EST

Pocatello (ID) Idaho State Journal
Police ID couple in apparent murder-suicide
Sun Jan 6, 2013 5:11 PM EST

Madison (WI) WISC -
Apparent murder-suicide leaves 2 people dead
Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:20 PM EDT

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:02 AM

20. The simple logic

that if guns caused suicides why would a country like Japan with virtually no guns have a suicide rate 4 times the US which is awash with guns. Anecdotal points are meaningless in the context of determining cause..let's all the cases where the presence of a gun actually caused a person to commit suicide and why would it be any more the cause than an open rafter and a piece of rope? You really don't see the distinction here?

Oh, and I find it interesting that if the homicide rate and suicide rate of Japan and the US are each added together Japan's combined rate is almost twice the US rate of suicide and homicide combined..interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

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Response to pipoman (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:11 AM

22. japanese people have more concept of honor and hurt themselves before others. duh.

So, suicide tops homicide by nearly two to one in the gun-death business. What the heck is going on?

Since the NRA has steadfastly stood against learning anything systematic about this well-documented phenomenon, we don’t really know what’s happening and why. But I will venture a guess or two.

Guns make death easy. That is, it’s not technically hard to pull a trigger. A law abiding citizen in despair chooses not to kill the object of his anger (the wife run off, the humiliating plant manager, the rival for the girl’s affection, the gods themselves for ruining the harvest) and instead turns his anger inward. What means does he have? Poisoning (horrible, painful), vehicle into tree or off cliff (no guarantee of results), knife in the belly (that’s for Samurai), overdose (maybe, but, again, no guarantee), jump off a high place (takes a lot of nerve), suffocation (on yourself? really?), and gunshot.

Gunshot to the head is nearly foolproof, with in-the-mouth the method of choice. I’ll wager that most of these self-inflicted gun deaths are done with a handgun, which is easier to wield. However, for those with access to only a rifle, there’s always removing your shoes, placing the stock on the floor, leaning over the barrel, and working the trigger with your toes.

It’s just one quick moment of decisiveness, and you’re done.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay/2013/01/22/who-knew-the-leading-cause-of-gun-death-is-suicide/

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Response to pipoman (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:24 AM

23. if 22 per 100,000 is twice 17 per 100,000, you might want to check your math

Oh, and I find it interesting that if the homicide rate and suicide rate of Japan and the US are each added together Japan's combined rate is almost twice the US rate of suicide and homicide combined..interesting

and use the same years to compare the two and such.

unemployment is the main cause of suicide everywhere. not guns.

guns are just the easiest way by far.

japanese have the balls do do it the hard way, i guess.

Anecdotal points are meaningless in the context of determining cause..

then stop using them.


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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:48 PM

49. You are correct

The actual facts are that Japan's suicide rate is almost twice that of the US (22/100,000 in Japan vs 11.8 in the US) and is also substantially higher than the combined homicide/suicide rate in the US (22/100,000 in japan and 16.5/100,000 in the US).

This is primarily cultural and has nothing to do with guns. In Japan, people are expected to commit suicide when they have done something wrong. However, the traditional method of committing suicide is be displaced by jumping in front of speeding trains, as Japan now controls the ownership of swords almost as tightly as they do ownership of firearms.

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Response to legaleagle_45 (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:17 PM

50. thanks!

In Japan, people are expected to commit suicide when they have done something wrong.

end of argument, thanks for the backup! welcome!

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:29 AM

24. Someone on a thread here gave a stat that said the number of gun deaths in the USA was misconstrued.

The reasoning being that half the deaths by gun were not to others, but were suicide. The poster cited some liberal pundit saying the problem still wasn't guns, but the sense of desperation from economic woes. Unfortunately, the claim was not linked, but part of an article about how unhappy Americans were. If it had had a link, I would have saved the link to look at later. As it was, the claim was by a pundit, and I don't remember who he was, but it made sense of a sort.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:01 PM

40. here's two articles

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay/2013/01/22/who-knew-the-leading-cause-of-gun-death-is-suicide/

***

The research team linked the suicide rate to unemployment, using numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Every rise of 1 percent in unemployment was accompanied by an increase in the suicide rate of roughly 1 percent, it found. A similar correlation has been found in some European countries since the recession.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/health/us-suicide-rate-rose-during-recession-study-finds.html?_r=0

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #40)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:05 PM

43. Thanks... Someone posted an excerpt from a writer who saw the Forbes article. Guns make it easier.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:20 AM

33. "Nobody commits suicide because of the presence of a gun".

Sorry, but the experts and scientific studies on suicide consistently prove you wrong. I realize that your devotion to the pro-gun ideology requires that you hold some false beliefs, but wouldn't it be a good idea to attempt to square your beliefs with reality at some point?

Firearms are the most lethal and most common method of suicide in the U.S. More people who die by suicide use a gun than all other methods combined. Suicide attempts with a firearm are almost always fatal, while those with other methods are less likely to kill. Nine out of ten people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide later.

Every U.S. study that has examined the relationship has found that access to firearms is a risk factor for suicides. Firearm owners are not more suicidal than non-firearm owners; rather, their suicide attempts are more likely to be fatal. Many suicide attempts are made with little planning during a short-term crisis period. If highly lethal means are made less available to impulsive attempters and they substitute less lethal means, or temporarily postpone their attempt, the odds are increased that they will survive. Studies in a variety of countries have indicated that when access to a highly lethal and leading suicide method is reduced, the overall suicide rate drops driven by a drop in the restricted method.

To explore the research on each of these concepts in greater depth, click here:

Many suicide attempts occur with little planning during a short-term crisis.
Intent isn’t all that determines whether an attempter lives or dies; means also matter.
90% of attempters who survive do NOT go on to die by suicide later.
Access to firearms is a risk factor for suicide.
Firearms used in youth suicide usually belong to a parent
Reducing access to lethal means saves lives.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/

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Response to DanTex (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:26 AM

35. Thank you for this input

from the reality based world.

Excellent link and excellent information.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:07 PM

44. Exactly! With 'little planning during a short-term crisis' that's the truth.

And once that bullet is fired, there is no second chance to recover and move on. Thanks for your post.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

39. well mental health professionals DO think so so stop it

thus the list of 30+ countries which exceed the US suicide rate mostly are gun free societies..

please expound on your above non-statement. RUSSIA? UKRAINE? SERBIA? gun free? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

you do realize there is no such thing as a gun-free society? right?


1 South Korea (more info) 31.7 2011
2 Lithuania (more info) 31.6 2011
3 Guyana (more info) 26.4 2006
4 Kazakhstan (more info) 25.6 2008
5 Belarus 25.3 2010
6 People's Republic of China
(more info) 22.23 2011
7 Japan (more info) 21.9 2012
8 Hungary 21.7 2009
10 Sri Lanka(more info) 21.6 1996
11 Russia (more info) 21.4 2011
12 Ukraine (more info) 21.2 2009
70 Croatia 19.7 2002
13 Serbia and Montenegro 19.5 2006
14 Estonia 18.1 2008
16 Belgium 17.6 2009
9 Latvia 17.5 2009
17 Moldova 17.4 2008
18 Slovenia 17.2 2010
19 Finland 16.8 2010
20 Uruguay 15.8 2004
21 South Africa 15.4 2005
22 Poland 15.4 2010
91 Sweden 15.3 2011
24 France (more info) 15.0 2009
25 Hong Kong 14.6 2009
26 Suriname 14.4 2005
27 Bosnia and Herzegovina 13.3 2011
28 New Zealand 13.2 2008
29 Austria 12.8 2009
30 Czech Republic 12.8 2010
31 Cuba 12.3 2008
32 Bulgaria 12.3 2008
33 Romania 12.0 2009
34 United States (more info) 12.0 2009

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:59 PM

57. All have more restrictive gun laws than the US...all of them..

Russia?

In Russia, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms and handguns

In Russia, private possession of fully automatic weapons is prohibited

In Russia, private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is not specifically prohibited in law

In Russia, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is prohibited

In Russia, only licensed gun owners24 25 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Russia are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security

etc., etc.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/russia


No, Russia has far more restrictive firearms laws than the US.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 03:48 PM

58. take a look at your original statement again.

thus the list of 30+ countries which exceed the US suicide rate mostly are gun free societies..no, the method isn't the reason for the act of suicide

gun free societies? hello? no such thing exists, first of all.

now you are blathering about guns don't increase suicide. (TOTALLY FALSE)

when the actual point is people kill themselves everywhere, and guns make it a LOT easier.

ever been to siberia? i hear its a bit depressing in the winter!

get it? japanese people are expected to save face for their family by suicide.

russians drink vodka (a depressant) by the quart and live for months in sub zero conditions.

go away, you aren't making ANY sense.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #58)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:35 PM

59. OK

probably a poor choice of words..happens from time to time..not often..

Are you stating that the presence of a gun increases one's desire to off themselves? Or that the presence of guns in society increases the prevalence of firearms suicide? These are two completely different things. I believe that people kill themselves for many reasons, nary one commits suicide because they own a gun..the latter is ridiculous

guns make it a LOT easier.

Apparently not really that much easier as many countries with much more restrictive firearms laws seem to get 'er done..no, if someone is intent on killing themselves, they take time to make sure it will work..

Yeah, and Americans have many reasons too...whats the point? Aside from the fact the presence of a gun doesn't drive anyone to wish to kill themselves..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #59)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:54 PM

63. stay with me here- if someone is homicidally pissed at someone they also love, they might use

that person's gun on themselves instead of that person.

ever notice that most movies don't even show that type of thing graphically?

happens multiple times a day, as per those headlines i posted.

ok?

***

So, suicide tops homicide by nearly two to one in the gun-death business. What the heck is going on?

Since the NRA has steadfastly stood against learning anything systematic about this well-documented phenomenon, we don’t really know what’s happening and why. But I will venture a guess or two.

Guns make death easy. That is, it’s not technically hard to pull a trigger. A law abiding citizen in despair chooses not to kill the object of his anger (the wife run off, the humiliating plant manager, the rival for the girl’s affection, the gods themselves for ruining the harvest) and instead turns his anger inward. What means does he have? Poisoning (horrible, painful), vehicle into tree or off cliff (no guarantee of results), knife in the belly (that’s for Samurai), overdose (maybe, but, again, no guarantee), jump off a high place (takes a lot of nerve), suffocation (on yourself? really?), and gunshot.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay/2013/01/22/who-knew-the-leading-cause-of-gun-death-is-suicide/

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #63)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:28 PM

68. Ifs and mights

What about I've answered and been pretty clear..

Are you stating that the presence of a gun increases one's desire to off themselves? Or that the presence of guns in society increases the prevalence of firearms suicide?

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Response to pipoman (Reply #68)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:34 PM

69. no, fact and facts.

Are you stating that the presence of a gun increases one's desire to off themselves? Or that the presence of guns in society increases the prevalence of firearms suicide?

no and of COURSE on the 2nd.

the presence in a home makes it VERY much easier for an angry or depressed person. it increases the CHANCE by making it very easy.

i will agree it does not affect ones desire- could be a symptom of suicidal or homicidal thoughts in SOME cases, obviously.

as far as society- less guns means less would try overall, AND less of that smaller amount would succeed, so OF COURSE IT DOES.

Harvard agrees with me (or me/them, whatever)

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Response to pipoman (Reply #59)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:59 PM

64. three more murder suicides in the 20 hours since post #17- incomplete list

Pittsburgh (PA) Post-Gazette -
Center Township couple found dead in murder-suicide
Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:24 PM EST

St. Louis (MO) Post-Dispatch -
Murder-suicide stuns family of SLU grad
Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:18 PM EST

Green Bay (WI) Press-Gazette -
Madison deaths appear to be murder, suicide

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #64)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:36 PM

70. OK?

How many would have occurred if we could magically make guns disappear?...surely you aren't suggesting none of these people would have felt the urge and developed a plan if there were no guns? I believe they all would have occurred in some form or another..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:08 AM

32. What does that have to do with anything? This is a well known RBKA extremist talking point.

 

Change the subject on Japan's great gun control success to their cultures suicide issues.

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:38 PM

60. Actually calling things you disagree with a talking point is a talking point..

that's sort of like answering a question with a question..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #60)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:34 AM

73. You mean like changing the subject from Japan's huge success with gun control to something else?

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

42. Yeah, luckily in America we don't have a bit of a suicide problem.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:49 PM

62. "A suicide problem"

Well if you mean people commit suicide in the US, well we have a suicide problem. If you believe it will change dramatically because of any laws against anything, I completely disagree. Suicide is a part of human sociology which has existed forever..it isn't caused[/i>] by the presence of a gun...which is what this conversation started about..

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:19 PM

46. Japan's murder rate is understated

Japan's murder rate is somewhat lower than it would be if the criteria employed was similar to the US. For the same reason, Japan's suicide rate is somewhat higher than it would be if the criteria employed was similar to the US.

The difference in reporting and the reason for this discrepancy is that murder- suicides involving family members are all counted as sucides rather than a suicide and a murder or multiple murders. Thus, if a father kills himself, his spouse and two children, Japan counts it as 4 suicides, while the US counts it as 3 murders and one suicide.

With that said, Japan would still have an incredibly high suicide rate even if they used similar methodology as the US.

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Response to legaleagle_45 (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:20 PM

51. damn, you're good!

keep at it!

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Response to legaleagle_45 (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:29 PM

55. " if a father kills himself, his spouse and two children, Japan counts it as 4 suicides,"

*speechless*

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Response to redqueen (Reply #55)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:42 PM

61. International comparisons are dangerous

Different countries use different criteria. Another example is the UK. The UK has has a much higher violent crime rate than the US. One reason for this is because the UK includes simple assault as a "violent crime" while the US only includes aggravated assault.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:54 PM

5. Yeah, we'll just require gang members to come in and take tests.

And if they don't pass, they have to give up their guns.

I'm sure that'll work just fine.



If you're about taking guns, take them from the criminals first, then get back to me.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:59 PM

9. what about all the illegal dealers? just selling guns to gang members w/ no BG check is preferable?

ones with FFLs that break laws and private ones that don't need licenses or have to do background checks?

that sell 40% of all guns?

whatcha gonna do about them?

you live in a dangerous gang area? maybe MOVE?

taking them from criminals is EXACTLY what the new proposals are SUPPOSED to do.

Feinstein says "nobody is getting their gun taken away." she went OUT OF HER WAY to remind you because you are so scared and worried.

so calm down.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:00 AM

18. If you believe that 40% of all guns do not go through a background check then you are an idiot.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:05 AM

21. how many, then, if you are the expert?

a very mature expert, to boot!

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:11 AM

26. You didn't read the post correctly, you know that right?

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:26 PM

53. i said 40% are COMPLETELY illegal- no BG check is MUCH higher!

http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/17/states-take-action/

i see a grand total of TWO states that require BG checks on all sales.

so go away.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:57 PM

7. Here is an Idea

 

Move to Japan. This is America. We have guns and always will.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:00 AM

10. Have fun being the next Randy Weaver

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Response to Berserker (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:08 AM

14. try this

don't type so many silly slogans, you sound foolish.

we have too many guns, and will have less.

too bad for you.

whatever.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:05 AM

25. No, actually we won't

The only real question is how many beserk gun owers will need to go off before we change. Change will come, but it will not be the "gun grabbers" that cause it, it will be the gun owners. At some point the death toll will be large enough, give it time. If one elementary school, shopping mall, or movie theater won't do it, beserk gun owners can be counted on to produce more.

As it is now, the mere killing of 4 or 5 relatives / ex-wife and her friends, or such only gets you brief mention in the media. There is just too much of that going on at this time spend alot of time on any one event. You really have to get up near or well into double digits among strangers or kids for sustained attention. The folks who want this attention will keep taking it up another notch, on this we can depend.

At some point the carnage will get horrific enough that something will be done. That something will be sudden, demanded by the people, and vastly exceed the "gun grabbers" wildest expectations.

I don't know when or if I will live to see it, but the course is set, only the gun owners could change it, and they won't.

History is cool.

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:13 PM

74. I dont know

I think change will have to come from financial incentives due to our "capitalistic" paralysis.

Somehow the gun industry has to feel the heat - so that they lose influence in Washington.

Cigarettes 'fell out of favor' when they started getting sued, and insurance went after them as an expense.

Somebody needs to find a way to sue the crap out of these companies or somehow cut their legs from under them.

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Response to Locrian (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:11 PM

75. I agree with the sentiment

but I think cigarettes is the wrong model. Besides, that approach was tried and tossed out of court. It is not at all like the gun dealers are hiding the lethality of the product. They advertise it.

I don't think there as been all that much merit to the tobacco litigation either. I don't think anyone remotely concious could have missed the health warnings there either.

I hate to say this, but I believe guns will disappear voluntarily when the stigma of owning one gets to the point that no almost one wants to be known as an owner. It is increasingly clear that losing 20 kids at an elementary school will not get us there. To the extent that it doesn't, there will be more such incidents, as surely as the sun rises in the morning.

At some point the carnage will be sufficient to bring about change. I shudder to think what level of carnage it will in fact take, but rest assured that the owners will keep taking it up a notch and will accomplish this at some point.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:12 AM

27. Japan has guns too, the government just doesn't support mass murder

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:09 PM

45. Nailed it.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:36 PM

47. Japan has very few guns

The only firearms which a civilian may have in Japan are shotguns. Sportsmen are permitted to possess shotguns for hunting and for skeet shooting, but only after submitting to a lengthy licensing procedure. Without a license, a Japanese citizen person may not even hold a gun in his or her hands (unless they are a member of the olympic shooting team, in which case they can hold a pistol while shooting in competition). Weapons must be stored in a safe when not in use and you must submit proof of the safe when making the application. Regulation of air rifles (not "firearms") is similar to shotguns. Police randomly search the owners home for violation (no 4th amend in Japan either). Further, non shotgun owners are subject to stop and frisk policies which the NYPD would be envious of. Mere unarticulated suspicion that a person may have a weapon of any sort is sufficient.

Japan has strictly controlled civilian ownership of all weapons since about 1560 when the shogun warlord Hidéyoshi fought his way to power and promptly banned weapons ownership for all except his warriors.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:00 AM

11. whoops!

thanks

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:01 AM

12. funny how all the gunners start whooping without actually reading the whole thing, huh?

buncha maroons.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:17 AM

16. They have the kind of gun control I'd be more comfortable with...

 

I make my decisions based on what works... not a 250-year old piece of paper.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:01 AM

19. Are you implying the constitution and bill of rights are outdated, and should be ignored?

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:14 AM

29. Only wingers think that but only on the issue of voting

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:37 AM

30. No, just that they should be interpreted in line with...

 

...the times as the founding fathers intended.

But you bloody "guardians of liberty" are so damned busy defending a single bloody sentence that you've entirely lost sight of the bigger picture and UTTERLY failed to realise that pretty much all of the remainder of said documents have been exceptioned almost entirely out of existence.

IF you were EVER going to use those guns for the reasons you say you must have them without government interference or oversight you should have been on the way to Washington before the ink was dry on the PATRIOT act.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:07 AM

31. Germany has similar stringent laws for its gun owners.

Only military, police and Jaegers (hunters)* can possess firearms and those weapons must be registered. You can be imprisoned if you are caught even holding a firearm without a special license. And in Germany, you don't get to plea bargain or find an exception to the law. It's black-and-white: either you followed the law or you broke it.

* German "hunters" have to go through a rigorous training period, have to pass special shooting tests, have to be recommended by local law enforcement, and have to know an array of knowledge such as the life cycle of several animals, how to humanely shoot and kill animals, etc. There is no such thing as week-end warriors for German hunters where you just go out hunting for fun. It's serious business. And the local police call on Jaegers for assignments such as thinning out deer herds or removing dangerous wild boar from properties.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:06 PM

41. THEY ARE NAZIS OH MY GOD THEY WILL COME TO TAKE THE GUNZ!!! (joke)

And the local police call on Jaegers for assignments such as thinning out deer herds or removing dangerous wild boar from properties.

instead of letting them run amok like we do here!

don't these fools understand that insisting on 'da biggest gunz we want' makes cops lives miserable?

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:13 PM

76. Not Nazi Germany. Not according to this poster at DKos

Perhaps you are ignorant. Perhaps you are an RKBA fanatic. But, either way, you are WRONG.


In 1938, the German Weapons Act was passed to replace the 1928 law. So how much of a restriction was this on gun ownership?

The short answer: It was mostly an expansion. The longer answer: It was mostly an expansion as long as you weren't a Jew.


The only new restrictions in the law related to buying guns: you had to be someone whose 'trustworthiness is not in question' and could 'show a need for a permit'. Essentially there were background checks and you couldn't just buy a gun because it's a Tuesday and that's what you do on Tuesdays.

Also, Jews were now excluded from firearms manufacture, and in a law later that year would have the right to bear arms stripped from them.

The rest of the law?
-Lowered the age you could buy guns to 18.
-Lengthened how long firearm permits could go before expiration.
-People who held hunting permits or were members of the Nazi party were made immune from regulation.
-Permits to manufacture and sell guns were eliminated. The ability was no longer regulated by permits.


And interestingly the law deregulated all non-handgun purchases. If you wanted a shotgun or a rifle and ammo to boot, you didn't have any problems with the Nazi government.Hitler and Guns]

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Response to arendt (Reply #76)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:21 PM

77. Clarification: "Modern" Germany.

Thank you for the history lesson.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #77)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 08:45 AM

78. Apologies. You did say "has". I was distracted...

by the "Nazi" joke in the post above mine.

Sloppy, drive-by post on my part.

Sorry for the crack about RKBA. More bad assumptions on my part.

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Response to arendt (Reply #78)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 09:35 AM

79. It's OK.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 08:21 AM

34. "The fewer guns that are out there, the safer Japan is."

In the end, it's really not very complicated: less guns, less death.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:37 AM

36. I actually know

Someone in Japan who is part of the Yakuza. (Not joking.) He told me knives are the weapons of choice. No one is crazy enough to carry a gun. That is about all I will say on it.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:42 AM

37. Yeah, but do they prosecute minor drug offenders like we do?

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:23 PM

52. Ah so...

And they have freedom, just not the freedom to murder people. I think this would be good here, but am
realtistic enough to know it could never happen - but lets try anyway.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:29 PM

54. THAT is the way gun ownership should be approached in the U.S....

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:43 PM

56. 15 f'in seconds. grow up, all of you gun bunnies

Editorial
In Other Countries, Laws Are Strict and Work
Experts from the Harvard School of Public Health, using data from 26 developed countries, have shown that wherever there are more firearms, there are more homicides. In the case of the United States, exponentially more: the American murder rate is roughly 15 times that of other wealthy countries, which have much tougher laws controlling private ownership of guns.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/the-gun-challenge-strict-laws-work.html

***

from a pro-gun blog: (not entire accurate, but somewhat.)
http://www.weapon-blog.com/2011/11/comparing-gun-laws-around-the-world/
3. Japan – Japan has strict laws regarding firearms licensing, but they are considered a formality. In spite of the liberal nature of the policy, gun deaths in Japan are among the lowest in the world.

avoid the issue, much?

***

Here is my small thought. It is quite possible, perhaps probable, that stricter gun laws of the sort that Mr Obama may or may not be planning, would not have stopped the horrible killings of this morning. But that is a separate question from whether it is a good idea to allow private individuals to own guns. And that, really, is what I think I understand by gun control. Once you have guns in circulation, in significant numbers, I suspect that specific controls on things like automatic weapons or large magazines can have only marginal effects. Once lots of other people have guns, it becomes rational for you to want your own too.

-skip-

I would also say, to stick my neck out a bit further, that I find many of the arguments advanced for private gun ownership in America a bit unconvincing, and tinged with a blend of excessive self-confidence and faulty risk perception.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2012/12/gun-control

I would also say, to stick my neck out a bit further, that I find many of the arguments advanced for private gun ownership in America a bit unconvincing, and tinged with a blend of excessive self-confidence and faulty risk perception.

very polite!

***

Will Lessons From Down Under Stem the Undertaker Here?

In 1996, 28-year-old Martin Bryant finished his lunch in a café in the seaside resort of Port Arthur and pulled out a semi-automatic rifle. In the first 15 seconds of his attack, he killed 12 and wounded 10.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/australia-model-successful-gun-control-laws/story?id=18007055

not so polite-
15 FUCKING SECONDS!!!!!
will you gun bunnies shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment for 15 fucking seconds and imagine what being in a situation like that would be like?

what the fuck good would your gun do?

you want to be a 'hero' so just let shit like that happen?

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:09 PM

65. This is why I like Japan

They take a no-nonsense approach unconstrained by religious myths and Judeo-Christian culture.

When I first went over there, people walked around the street with what looked like surgical masks. I asked my friend what was going on. In Japan, when someone is sick, they wear health masks to avoid infecting others. Here in the US, we take pills to avoid appearing sick, but over there people consider it common courtesy to alert others and prevent spreading the virus.

There are a lot of ideas we could learn from them.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #65)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:19 PM

66. Gun control advocates march as nation reels from school shootings

She urged the assembly to press for gun reform.

The demonstrators started chanting: "Yes, we can! Yes, we can! Yes, we can!"

Without mentioning the National Rifle Association, Norton made a reference to the powerful gun lobby, saying, "It comes down to us because we are immune to their lobbying.

"Only an outraged public can end the gun violence that has enveloped our country," she added. "We the people who did not act before, we the people this time will step forward.

"And this time we will not step back."


Colin Goddard survived being shot four times during the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007, the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, one that left 33 people dead, including the gunman, who took his own life.

Goddard, one of the rally speakers, said he was shot above the knee, twice in the hip and once in the shoulder.

"I consider myself one of the lucky ones," he told the gathering.


Then, speaking of subsequent school shootings across the nation, he added: "I kept seeing what happened to me happen to other people."

Goddard now works for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence as assistant director for victims advocacy and federal litigation.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/gun-control-rally/index.html

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #65)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:25 PM

67. not to mention the food

(that cnn thing was supposed to go @ the end of the thread)

they also have the highest life expectancy in the world.

AND sushi is delicious!

they really are very..thorough


http://japanisweird.com/

(that's so the watermelons fit in the fridge better, they grow them in frames!)

they also put fireflies in cricket cages tied to their ankles so they can work at night in the fields!

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:41 PM

71. Japan's homicide rate (total) is ¼ of our non-gun homicide rate

I would assume it's because they take better care of people in the first place.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:53 PM

72. 9,369 divided by 47 = our gun murder rate is ~200 times higher than japan's

just another ballpark figure.

Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 31,918
# 2 Colombia: 21,898
# 3 Thailand: 20,032
# 4 United States: 9,369
# 5 Philippines: 7,708
# 6 Mexico: 2,606
# 7 Slovakia: 2,356
# 8 El Salvador: 1,441
# 9 Zimbabwe: 598
# 10 Peru: 442
# 11 Germany: 269
# 12 Czech Republic: 181
# 13 Ukraine: 173
# 14 Canada: 144
# 15 Albania: 135
# 16 Costa Rica: 131
# 17 Azerbaijan: 120
# 18 Poland: 111
# 19 Uruguay: 109
# 20 Spain: 97
# 21 Portugal: 90
# 22 Croatia: 76
# 23 Switzerland: 68
# 24 Bulgaria: 63
# 25 Australia: 59
# 26 Sweden: 58
# 27 Bolivia: 52
# 28 Japan: 47
# 29 Slovenia: 39
= 30 Belarus: 38
= 30 Hungary: 38
# 32 Latvia: 28
# 33 Burma: 27
# 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26
# 35 Austria: 25
# 36 Estonia: 21
# 37 Moldova: 20
# 38 Lithuania: 16
= 39 United Kingdom: 14
= 39 Denmark: 14
# 41 Ireland: 12
# 42 New Zealand: 10
# 43 Chile: 9
# 44 Cyprus: 4
# 45 Morocco: 1
= 46 Oman: 0
= 46 Luxembourg: 0
= 46 Iceland: 0

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