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Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:31 PM

What do these women think about women serving in combat?

Say, Colonel Tammy Duckworth?




Or these women on The Wall:

CAPT Eleanor Grace Alexander, USA
(Panel 31E Line 8)

2LT Pamela Dorothy Donovan, USA
(Panel 53W Line 43)

2LT Carol Ann Drazba, USA
(Panel 05E Line 46)

LTC Annie Ruth Graham, USA
(Panel 48W Line 12)

2LT Elizabeth Ann Jones, USA
(Panel 05E Line 47)

CAPT Mary Therese Klinker, USAF
(Panel 01W Line 122)

1LT Sharon Ann Lane, USA
(Panel 23W Line 112)

1LT Hedwig Diane Orlowski, USA
(Panel 31E Line 15)


Or Jessica Lynch and Lori Piestewa.




Or all the WWII female military members who were killed, and who were imprisoned for many years (and often died in) in POW camps, the thousands who received Purple Hearts and other BATTLEFIELD decorations. The female pilots who ferried unarmed planes through dangerous skies (because they weren't allowed to be armed). Women such as Cpt. Annie Fox.




Women have given their blood, their lives, their health for this country, receiving less pay, slower promotion tracks, fewer medical services, lesser decorations, and insults for their. Including the insults and tired cliches about women military on here.

Props to all who have served, are serving, and will serve. It's not for me, but hats off to those who are our female warriors.









116 replies, 8389 views

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Reply What do these women think about women serving in combat? (Original post)
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 OP
Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #1
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #2
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #3
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #14
Rex Jan 2013 #17
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #18
Rex Jan 2013 #24
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #25
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #28
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #102
Rex Jan 2013 #29
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #34
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #38
Rex Jan 2013 #74
mopinko Jan 2013 #78
DollarBillHines Jan 2013 #87
Gormy Cuss Jan 2013 #4
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #10
Wait Wut Jan 2013 #5
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #11
whathehell Jan 2013 #6
sheshe2 Jan 2013 #58
whathehell Jan 2013 #76
sheshe2 Jan 2013 #79
whathehell Jan 2013 #86
Jamastiene Jan 2013 #7
Rex Jan 2013 #8
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #12
Rex Jan 2013 #15
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #20
Rex Jan 2013 #26
Skittles Jan 2013 #9
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #13
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #21
Skittles Jan 2013 #23
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #80
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #81
REP Jan 2013 #16
pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #19
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #22
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #27
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #30
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #31
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #39
2naSalit Jan 2013 #60
firehorse Jan 2013 #32
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #33
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #41
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #48
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #54
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #56
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #57
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #73
Moonwalk Jan 2013 #99
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #108
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #71
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #72
Moonwalk Jan 2013 #100
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #106
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #111
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #113
wryter2000 Jan 2013 #42
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #51
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #91
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #92
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #93
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #97
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #98
Moonwalk Jan 2013 #101
ehrenfeucht games Jan 2013 #52
ehrenfeucht games Jan 2013 #47
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #50
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #53
zappaman Jan 2013 #61
La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2013 #82
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #90
Moonwalk Jan 2013 #103
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #107
Moonwalk Jan 2013 #110
cbrer Jan 2013 #35
Flora Jan 2013 #36
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #43
ehrenfeucht games Jan 2013 #49
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #55
ehrenfeucht games Jan 2013 #59
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #62
zappaman Jan 2013 #63
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #64
zappaman Jan 2013 #65
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #67
Incitatus Jan 2013 #109
Scurrilous Jan 2013 #37
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #40
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #88
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #89
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #94
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #95
WillyT Jan 2013 #44
Pyrzqxgl Jan 2013 #45
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #46
mountain grammy Jan 2013 #66
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #68
Spazito Jan 2013 #69
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #70
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #75
OldEurope Jan 2013 #77
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #83
sarge43 Jan 2013 #84
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #85
happyslug Jan 2013 #96
sarge43 Jan 2013 #112
Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #104
orpupilofnature57 Jan 2013 #105
mentalsolstice Jan 2013 #114
sarge43 Jan 2013 #115
MADem Feb 2013 #116

Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)


Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:37 PM

2. +1

Unreal, isn't it?

I love the argument that we'd be afraid of shit and blood. Do they think women poop rainbows? Jesus.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:40 PM

3. They've never seen me out trailrunning with male friends

Even in that safe, controlled environment, "societal norms" quickly break down re: bodily functions and fluids and sounds.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:02 PM

14. And I guess someone forgot to tell these women that they can't lift stuff good.









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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:05 PM

17. Already saw someone (banned troll)

post they were going to have to adjust the PT standards.

Really? WHY?

They made it all of 3 posts...

I doubt they ever served a day.

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Response to Rex (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:08 PM

18. I have a close family member who is a Wounded Warrior

Literally, and also works for the WW organization now. He is 100% for this, and says all he ever worried about was being with someone who had his back and had grit, and that he served with many "kickass women." He has also always been very much against DADT, even while he was serving.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:19 PM

24. I've been against DADT since I learned about it.

And thought that punishing men and women for loving each other was in itself an abominiation. FUCK, they have to fight and perhaps die...let them love who they want for God's sake! Tomorrow might not be there.

I met some women that put me in awe of their military prowess. Their grasp of battlefield strategy taught me many things at 4am in the TOCs ten billion tent fortress.

This was in the 1990s.

You sound like you have a wonderful family!

I never worried about my back, Army Strong really is just that.

Man or women, it is a matter of fact.

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Response to Rex (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:19 PM

25. Maybe they should adjust it so men should have the stamina to stay in labor for 16 hours

or equivalent. I can't believe that anyone who knows any women would say they were too weak.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:24 PM

28. They've also never met my mother

Or my grandmother. Who bought are like the Tasmanian Devil, even at their ages.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:48 PM

102. Or my grandmother or her sister...

both could pick up two 100lb sacks, one in each hand, and carry them up from the cellar or in from the barn.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:26 PM

29. Same here. But then again the strongest people in my

life (growing up) have been the women more so then the men. So I get offended by that statement easily. I take it personally right off the bat.

Also, I refuse to equate the word 'strong' only to mean one thing. That is the narrowmindedness of a Freeper imo.

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Response to Rex (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:52 PM

34. Thank you for all your posts.

Last edited Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

It sounds kind of self-serving for me to say that all of the strongest people I've known have also been women, but my mom at 68 was still whacking redwood tree roots out of her backyard with a pickaxe.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:27 PM

38. +1

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:14 AM

74. Nice!

We might be around the same age then. My mom is 66. She wouldn't think about whacking a tree, but is on our local school board and would lay into someone verbally if she smelled BS talk!

My grandmother (her mother) was a state delegate for the Democratic party on more than one occasion.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:12 AM

78. lift things like

half the sky.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:53 PM

87. I have a friend who is 5'6", 145 lbs and can dead lift 275 pounds

She can bench press 300.

She also makes gold medal-winning wines and is a world-class chef.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:44 PM

4. It's appalling that women are serving and have served in combat zones but aren't considered capable

of being labeled combat troops. I hate when anyone is sent into combat but in modern warfare, there really is no barrier to women being accorded the same opportunity as men to function in that role.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:59 PM

10. +1

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:47 PM

5. Love that pic of REP(!) Duckworth!!

I love that woman. I have nothing in common with her other than I own a uterus, but she gives me reason to fight harder...for everything and everyone.

It's only a (huge) plus that she defeated that moronic, teabagging, deadbeat dad, asshole.


As far as women serving in combat...yeah, they've been there forever.

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Response to Wait Wut (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:59 PM

11. I do, too!

It's one of my favorites of her, and I was glad I was able to find it.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:53 PM

6. Tammy was interviewed yesterday. She is all for it. When asked how she lost her legs,

she chuckled and said "Well, I didn't lose them in a barfight"!

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Response to whathehell (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:18 PM

58. What spirit...U go! nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:02 AM

76. She's great. I met her briefly and did some phone banking for her in the primaries.

She ran against the asshat Walsh. So glad she beat him by a mile.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:17 AM

79. Thank you so much, for the work you did for her.

She is a remakable woman. I envy your meeting her however brief!

She is going to do great things for this country.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #79)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:11 PM

86. Oh, you're quite welcome!...I've always been a fan and

it was quite satisfying to work against that asshole Walsh.

As for our little chat, I was just walking out the door of her headquarters

and she thanked me for volunteering. I told her I was glad to work against Walsh

and was only sorry I couldn't vote for her, as my neighborhood had been re-districted

out of her district. She, of course, was lovely and gracious.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:56 PM

7. K&R

I could not agree more.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:58 PM

8. We all learned that there is something much bigger than us

something that makes our individual lives seem tiny by comparison. We all went through that experience (women and men) from boot camp, through AIT and finally our first and next and last duty stations. It was large and always there in the room; that we had decided to take on the role of maintaining peace at the cost of life. It is so unbelievably disrespectful, imo, to diminish women in that role and cast them aside over age old sexist beliefs. There can be nothing more serious than that duty and to muck it up with Rushisms is grotesque.

I cringe when I see it, the old holdover values that were the same that kept a segregated Army.

We can no longer pretend to be ignorant of these truths - all people are created equal and must be treated fairly under that accord. Pretending one sex can kill better than the other is a horrible throwback, same as pretending one can defend better.

We are the apex predator on this planet and there is a reason for it. No one should deceive themselves into believing either sex is inferior when it comes to killing and protecting.

The sexism in the military needs to GO.

NOW.

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Response to Rex (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:00 PM

12. My word exactly: disrespectful

And, it is exactly what was said about integrating the ranks re: race, too.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:03 PM

15. unbelievably disrespectful

Thanks for making this thread! I cannot believe some here want to stick to outdated and quite frankly, sexist, ideas on combat and the military!

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Response to Rex (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:09 PM

20. You're welcome

I was really ticked about a bunch of these posts and one particular OP.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:20 PM

26. I saw that!

That is how I found your thread.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:58 PM

9. Sgt Jennifer Hartman

When she was in Iraq I sent her a card thanking her for her service to America (through anysolder.com). She had posted on Facebook that her worst fear was "being blown up in Iraq". A month later it happened. She was 21 year old.

http://www.iraqwarheroes.com/hartmanj.htm

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:00 PM

13. Thank you -- I hope others post names and phitos

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:11 PM

21. I'm linking her photo

Hope that's okay:

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:17 PM

23. Add the lovely Carrie French

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Response to Skittles (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:30 AM

80. Thanks Skittles. We shouldn't forget.

A few lines from an English poem in World War 1 :

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:06 PM

81. Damn... some dust in my eye...

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:04 PM

16. Brave women who deserve the full honors, rank and pay for their service

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:08 PM

19. From Zack Beauchamp's response to Ryan Smith's WSJ opinion piece...

Smith’s scatological suppositions don’t stand up to scrutiny. As most know, irregular warfare against insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan blurred the lines between “combat” and “non-combat” roles, meaning that female soldiers have been fighting in combat in practice for roughly a decade. 292,000 American women served in combat zones during in these two wars, 152 of whom were killed in action. There is no evidence that these women’s bravery damaged “unit cohesion” or in any other fashion worsened the ability of soldiers to do their jobs.

The evidence from foreign militaries suggest the same. Several American allies in Afghanistan allowed women to serve in “frontline roles,” and found that it had no effect on the performance of the unit in question. Israel’s Caracal Batallion, the country’s famous mixed gender combat unit, has performed admirably in combat situations.

If Smith and the Journal were interested in gender problems inside the military, they’d be better served focusing on the growing threat of sexual assault inside the ranks rather than attempting to restrict women’s freedom to choose their career path. One third of military women have been sexually assaulted, roughly twice the civilian figure.

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/01/24/1490151/wall-street-journal-op-ed-women-cant-be-in-combat-because-men-poop/



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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:13 PM

22. Yay -- thanks for this!

Did you make this an OP?

My relative who was Special Forces also thinks Ryan Smith is an ass.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:23 PM

27. "Wall Street Journal: Women Shouldn’t Be In Combat Because Men Poop"

Title love!

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:28 PM

30. Methinks Ryan Smith isn't married

And didn't have sisters or female cousins. He really doesn't seem to know much about women and their sensibilities.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:37 PM

31. Who does he think changed his diapers?

The BVM?

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:28 PM

39. omg



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:20 PM

60. Perhaps he lives

in a closet full of shirtmonsters and boogeymen.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:44 PM

32. This woman is pro-choice.... including if she wants to be in combat.

On top of that, I can't help but think this world would be a lot better if grandmas were in allowed to rise to power and be at the negotiating table.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:51 PM

33. This entire argument

is predicated on an all volunteer military. Place it in the context of universal conscription. How's it sound then?

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:30 PM

41. Fine

Although I am against the draft, for everyone.

Why would that change my mind? Are the lives of America's sons worth less than that of our daughters?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:44 PM

48. Absolutely,

at least biologically. A society may suffer massive male casualties in war and recover within a generation. It it looses its women, for any reason, its out of business in a generation.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:01 PM

54. So, you are saying procreation is more important than equal rights

And, because men can impregnated lots of women, and women can only get preggers about once a year, we have to protect the delicate flower wimmen and let the men go die so the surviving men can impregnate wimmen.

OMFG.



This really smacks of the Lebensborn, you know. For real. EWWWW.



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:17 PM

56. The Lebensborn

was established to provide male cannon fodder for the Third Reich, not to ensure the survival of Germany. It was the exact opposite of the point I made. As for your comment about the surviving males, prior to the shallow mockery, the answer is yes. It would be interesting if all things were equal, but they aren't. Only fools think otherwise.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:17 PM

57. *whistle*

Just wow.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:37 PM

73. Is reality

all that shocking to you? Is "just wow" a statement of denial or is it an epiphany? I would not wonder about this if you actually rebutted my argument rather than wowing and whistling.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:39 PM

99. I'm sorry, but if you're talking reality, then let's talk SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE...

BILLION. B-I-L-L-I-O-N. The earth is overpopulated, in case you hadn't noticed, and the death of millions in other countries doesn't make a dent in that or in those countries repopulating because of this. And here's another reality: Vietnam--58,151. That's how many died in the last war with a draft. Let's imagine that it was 50% female and you get 24,000 women. An appalling figure, but do you really think we couldn't repopulate the U.S. if we lost that many woman of childbearing age? Really?

Which is to say, I have this sneaky suspicion that we could easily repopulate the U.S. even if we drafted and lost a good many young women in a war (heaven forbid we do go to war and have to do that). And you're forgetting other realities. Like the fact that we can now fertilize eggs and keep them on ice. We could repopulate the U.S. by paying women from other countries to carry the fertilized eggs left behind by any men/women we drafted.

All of which means that your argument is outdated and NOT talking reality at all. It's from the previous century when a country could really suffer from the loss of it's young men and women. We'd suffer if there was ever a draft and a war requiring that many young men and women, yes, but not in the same way. All we'd have to do is open our doors to immigrants and we'd be back up to snuff in no time. SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE, and a lot of them want to be U.S. citizens. We'd have no problem at all repopulating. I promise you.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:32 PM

108. Overpopulation

certainly diminishes the value of a human life. Doesn't it? It opens the pit to all kinds of violent population reducing adventures.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:14 PM

71. That is simply not true, have you never heard of immigration?

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #71)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:30 PM

72. So, one side

virtually exterminates the male population of the other side, then emigrates into the territory of the defeated foe and copulates with all the bereft women? In this scenario, the original population is either slaughtered or bred out of existence. But, you are correct, and history is replete with examples of such immigration.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:42 PM

100. What kind of stupid answer is that? Do you think we're going to have a war with only two sides?

Us and the enemy and all the world involved in one side or the other? No neutral countries? We can get immigrants from plenty of places, not just the "losing" side. Then again, it worked out for Japanese war brides in WWII.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #100)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:22 PM

106. Refering to other people's

arguments as "stupid" because you disagree with them is not a rebuttal to those arguments, but it is a sign of limited aptitude.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:15 PM

111. The scenario you describe is not what I was saying.


You posted "A society may suffer massive male casualties in war and recover within a generation. It it looses its women, for any reason, its out of business in a generation."

I said that is not true. Yes, asking if you had heard of immigration was snarky, I'm sorry.

If the US were to loss a substantial amount of our female population in a war effort, the biological reproductive capacity could easily be replaced by immigrants into the US. Not only by women of child bearing health but also by children to prevent immediate loss of the effect of the lost biological capacity.

I am not speaking in such terms to be cold toward the loss of life and the easy replacement of those lost, but the post I originally referred to began with the statement that biologically speaking the quoted text was the case so I ignored all societal and cultural issues in my two replies.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #111)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

113. I understand.

You're points were well taken.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:30 PM

42. We all have to share the burden

Why should men be the only ones forced to serve?

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:47 PM

51. They shouldn't be,

but, should the need arise, men should be the only ones sacrificed in large numbers.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:01 PM

91. Why only men?

I'm trying to think of a reason. Nothing comes to mind.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:23 PM

92. Men are biologically

expendable. Women and children aren't. Such thinking on the subject has made me very unpopular with people who otherwise agree with me about most things. It is, of course, only an opinion informed by personal experience. I would not posit it as fact.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #92)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:29 PM

93. Expendable?

Ok.

So when is the last time the United States engaged in a war in which the sum total of the primary gender used to fight in the war was consumed to the point it threatened the survival of the total population of the US?

(The correct answer is: never)

Keep in mind the military comprises far less than 1 million Americans, and that will not change with this policy change.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:34 PM

97. We've been lucky that way.

During WWI, France had a male population of about 20 million. Of these 9 million were mobilized and 6 million were casualties. Of these more than 1 million were killed. Germany, Russia, Austria and Romania sustained similar, or in the case of Austria, even higher casualty rates as a proportion of their military age male populations. The French were the quickest to recover their former population. It probably had something to do with the wine. Germany, Japan and Russia suffered even worse military and civilian casualties in WWII. The closest we have come to this was during The Civil War. Of a total male population of approximately 15 million, 1.5 million were killed or wounded. None of this even begins to address wars of smaller scale but higher relative casualty rates.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:39 PM

98. None of those wars threatened the survival of the populations mentioned.

Russia has ended up with a ratio of 1.06, in favor of Women. not a survival threat. (In the over-60 age group, the ratio is worse but the war is only one factor)

If it comes to the point of threatening the US in that manner, it won't matter, because the war will be nuclear, and staying home will be no defense against it.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:47 PM

101. If we're involved in another Civil War (which was fought by a lot of immigrants on the North side)--

...then there's no keeping women out draft or no. If the South invades the North or vice versa with assault weapons blazing on both sides, women will be armed, fighting and dying. No way you're going to avoid the results by keeping women from being drafted. This, again, is not a realistic example if you're arguing against drafting women.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:47 PM

52. Slavery is wrong, whether for women or for men.

 

It's no less wrong when it's the military is enslaving folks.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:43 PM

47. There's a HUGE difference between free choice and slavery.

 

I've noticed some here at DU actually supporting the enslavement of women by the military.

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:44 PM

50. .....

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:00 PM

53. I served with

conscripts and volunteers. It was impossible to tell which when you bagged and tagged one.

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:23 PM

61. Oh brother

Maybe you should start an OP about it?

Oh wait...you did...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022254796

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:08 PM

82. it's not really fair for young poor men

to sacrifice their lives for wars rich & powerful men start either.

so at least this will universally not be fair

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:00 PM

90. Same. No material difference.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:51 PM

103. It sounds to me like women will have an unfair advantage in evading the draft...

...then just have to get pregnant. I don't know if or when we'll ever draft again (drones and such are making such less likely for the next war), but if we do, women evading it by getting pregnant will have to be addressed.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:26 PM

107. Why not draft them anyway.

We could have daycare foxholes and bunkers for infants and toddlers. We might even give them uniforms and tiny weapons.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:26 PM

110. Because infants and toddlers are distracting and will force the soldiers to split their attention...

...from fighting. Duh.

I mean, if you're going to try and pretend that drafting women will lead to such an absurdity--which I'm sure you don't for a second believe--then let's be "realistic" as you keep saying people are not being. Realistically, you can't have babies distracting your soldiers from fighting.

So. Duh. It ain't going to go that way. Seems to me that you are getting less and less realistic. Are you ready to take yourself to task for that the way you've been taking everyone else to task for it?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:59 PM

35. This Nation's success

 

Is due to ALL its people. If it fails, it will be for the same reason...

God bless these heroic women. And all the people who see a greater good than simply self.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:00 PM

36. Women have served proudly

and expertly for years, proving they are equal to the task. Young women should be required to sign for selective service right along side their male counterparts. I can't believe this "male only" tradition has lasted this long..

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Response to Flora (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:30 PM

43. I agree

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #43)


Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:03 PM

55. lololololol

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #55)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:18 PM

59. What's so funny? You agreed with this:

 

Young women should be required to sign for selective service


If it escaped your notice, and you actually disagree, then just say so.

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:24 PM

62. LOL



No longer responding to you, since I just saw your hidden OP and your profile.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #62)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:26 PM

63. Not to mention...

he just got locked out of this thread as well!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:29 PM

64. I missed that!



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:31 PM

65. Don't worry!

He has another OP started already...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240210703

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Response to zappaman (Reply #65)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:56 PM

67. hahaha

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Response to Flora (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:53 PM

109. Perhaps, but I don't see it happening.

A draft will face enough opposition as it is. Drafting women will only make that opposition worse. That may be a good thing for the people, but not likely something the PTB wants.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:26 PM

37. K & R

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:29 PM

40. Brigadier General Rhonda Cornum. (Ret.)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:55 PM

88. And the point is...?

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:59 PM

89. Just addding one to the OP's list.

She was captured, abused. Would do it again. Handled herself as well as could be expected of ANY human regardless of gender.

She has testified at least once in favor of women filling combat roles, before the Congress. Expertise I would think carries significant weight.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:41 PM

94. Nothing suggests

that the general was anything less than an outstanding soldier in the finest tradition of the armed forces of the United States. I also have combat experience and expertise in the matter. I respectfully disagree with her position. Women not serving directly in combat arms is a strongly, and I suppose inflexible point of view for me.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:51 PM

95. Thanks for posting!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:33 PM

44. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!


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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:33 PM

45. I don't approve of anyone serving in combat!

It'd be nice if we lived in a world where there was no need to.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:35 PM

46. National Defense is not a "Man's world"....

....it's a duty anyone has the right to assume.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:33 PM

66. Somewhere my mom is smiling

She joined the Woman Marines in 1942. A 30 year old single woman, she would have been proud to serve wherever they put her. She worked in military offices in DC and in the new Pentagon building in 1943. In those days, the role of women was usually to free the men to fight, but she went through basic and served honorably. She always believed women should serve in combat. She met my dad (also a Marine) at a ceremony at Arilington Cemetery. They rest together there today.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #66)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:56 PM

68. That is such a cool story!

Semper Fi, in more ways than one.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:06 PM

69. Excellent OP!

Thanks for posting this, says it all, imo.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:11 PM

70. Thank you!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:51 AM

75. K&R

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:13 PM

83. One of the many, many things we learned from Vietnam

is that it is important to protest war but respect the soldier. And these female soldiers deserve as much respect as any male soldier.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:01 PM

84. Thank you

From the beginning women have served

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson

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Response to sarge43 (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:03 PM

85. Thank you -- I almost mentioned her in my OP

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Response to sarge43 (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:14 PM

96. So what, since at least the Middle ages, one woman served with every 20 men in all Western Armies

And when we first hear of such "Washer Women" it was already a long established tradition. Some suspect as far back as Roman times. It was a position within the Army, just like Sergeant, Corporal, Sutter (Replaced by The Post Exchange), or Sapper (In the US Army now called a Combat Engineer).

Each "Platoon" of 20 men were assigned one washer woman. Yes, she wash their clothes, but did other things for the men, including taking water to them when they were in Combat. This was such a strong tradition that Congress had to pass a law expressly abolishing the position in the 1880s, when the Army wanted to upgrade how the troops were feed, and no one wanted to send women to school.

Now, technically each rank of four men prepared their own meals, but it appears that while that was how the men's food ration was assigned to them, and if the washer women were detached elsewhere they had to cook their own meals, when the washer women were with their platoon it was customary for the Washer Woman to prepare the meals for the Platoon (and often all of the Washer Women of a company would prepared the meals for the whole company together). For this additional service the men paid a small fee to the Washer Woman (often part of their food rations).

Congress abolished the position of "Washer Woman" in the 1880s, Congress was comfortable with sending ENLISTED MEN to schools to learn to cook, but NOT women thus the position of Washer Woman was replaced by Army Cooks AND a decision to pay enlisted ranks more if they were married (Mostly due to the fact married enlistees were less likely to desert).

Side Note: Some people think that the "Washer Women" were "Camp Followers" that was NOT true, "Washer Women" were INSIDE the Camp, "Camp Followers" were outside the camp and thus outside Military authority. In regular Army units, the Washer Woman was generally the Platoon's Sergent's wife, and he was NOT sharing. In long established units, the Washer Women of the Company were often the First Sergeant's' Daughters or Daughters-in-law. In newly raised units who was the washer woman was more diverse but they had a role within the Military organization and that role was understood by the Enlisted men and their Officers (Washer woman was a position held by women tied in with the enlisted ranks NOT the Officers, Officer's wives had duties related to their husband's command, but unlike the Washer Women were NOT paid for those duties).

You see this confusion often when people write about women in the pre 1880 Armies. Wikipedia in its web site on Molly Pitcher repeats that mistake. It calls Molly Pitcher a "Camp Follower" and she was not, she was a "Washer woman" she lived INSIDE the Camp, she did NOT follow the camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Pitcher

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Response to happyslug (Reply #96)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 05:29 AM

112. Sampson served in disguise, as an 11Bravo. That's the so what.

I'm well aware combat support services pre industrial era were a family affair. Even more so in the British army.





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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:51 PM

104. It's not that they can't serve on combat front lines

What I wonder is how many men will want to, not because they can't or won't see them as equals but how many won't want to see them maimed, in pieces, bullet riddled. It's a concern worth addressing.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:56 PM

114. K & R! You wouldn't believe my nephews disagreement with this!

He just got out of the marines. His argument against women in combat is that he wouldn't want to deal with their bloody tampons?! I so wanted to reply if that were the case he'd better not ever get married and/or have daughters. Or that if the sight of menstrual blood was too much for him, then it's a good thing he got out.

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Response to mentalsolstice (Reply #114)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:16 PM

115. I believe it. I've heard sillier.

You should have told him that until mom's placenta kicked in, menstrual fluid is what he fed on.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:48 PM

116. Great photo--that's at the WW2 Memorial.

Don't forget Rhonda Cornum...POW in Gulf One.

One of the smartest senior leaders I've ever met. Very cool under even extreme pressure.

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