HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Damn Defeatism and Doomsa...

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:57 PM

Damn Defeatism and Doomsaying!

Harry Reid could not muster 51 votes for a major change in the filibuster rules. So, now, we have folks in many venues claiming that the next four years will accomplish nothing. Some are even expatriates.

That is unmitigated bullshit!

Much was accomplished in the previous four years, and much will be accomplished in the next four years, despite some people's wishes that it were not so. Watch. Help.

2014 is coming. Begin today to elect a Democratic majority in the house. Find the candidates who can win in every state where a Democrat can beat a Republican, and get those people nominated and elected. We can do this, if we have the will to do it.

Do not listen to defeatists and doomsayers. Some of them are not even on your side, despite their use of the word lefty or left in their screen names. Some do not wish for Obama to succeed. Let them blather on. Get out and help make things happen. Much is up to us. Let's help President Obama make the things happen he spoke of in his second inauguration speech. It can be done if we have the will to do it.

104 replies, 5813 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 104 replies Author Time Post
Reply Damn Defeatism and Doomsaying! (Original post)
MineralMan Jan 2013 OP
MineralMan Jan 2013 #1
LeftInTX Jan 2013 #2
MineralMan Jan 2013 #3
CranialRectaLoopback Jan 2013 #68
MineralMan Jan 2013 #70
CranialRectaLoopback Jan 2013 #91
woo me with science Jan 2013 #93
CranialRectaLoopback Jan 2013 #94
tblue Jan 2013 #81
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #89
CranialRectaLoopback Jan 2013 #92
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #95
CranialRectaLoopback Jan 2013 #103
SidDithers Jan 2013 #18
madokie Jan 2013 #59
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #65
madokie Jan 2013 #67
SidDithers Jan 2013 #73
madokie Jan 2013 #85
longship Jan 2013 #4
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #6
MineralMan Jan 2013 #7
longship Jan 2013 #9
MineralMan Jan 2013 #10
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #16
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #27
russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #31
longship Jan 2013 #44
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #50
longship Jan 2013 #64
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #69
longship Jan 2013 #75
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #77
longship Jan 2013 #80
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #5
MineralMan Jan 2013 #8
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #12
russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #32
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #63
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #90
AverageJoe90 Jan 2013 #38
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #11
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #14
madokie Jan 2013 #60
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #66
madokie Jan 2013 #71
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #72
tblue Jan 2013 #83
cali Jan 2013 #13
MineralMan Jan 2013 #15
cali Jan 2013 #20
LeftInTX Jan 2013 #54
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #62
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #46
MineralMan Jan 2013 #47
tblue Jan 2013 #84
Hekate Jan 2013 #17
MineralMan Jan 2013 #22
Hekate Jan 2013 #26
AverageJoe90 Jan 2013 #36
patrice Jan 2013 #55
patrice Jan 2013 #61
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #102
patrice Jan 2013 #74
CBHagman Jan 2013 #19
MineralMan Jan 2013 #23
KharmaTrain Jan 2013 #21
MineralMan Jan 2013 #24
ErikJ Jan 2013 #25
MineralMan Jan 2013 #29
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #42
MineralMan Jan 2013 #43
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #52
MineralMan Jan 2013 #56
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #78
MineralMan Jan 2013 #97
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #104
patrice Jan 2013 #28
WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #30
MineralMan Jan 2013 #34
AverageJoe90 Jan 2013 #33
russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #35
MineralMan Jan 2013 #39
russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #41
earthside Jan 2013 #37
MineralMan Jan 2013 #40
NoOneMan Jan 2013 #45
canoeist52 Jan 2013 #48
MineralMan Jan 2013 #51
judesedit Jan 2013 #49
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #53
MineralMan Jan 2013 #58
still_one Jan 2013 #57
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #76
graham4anything Jan 2013 #79
JoeDuck Jan 2013 #82
arely staircase Jan 2013 #86
BainsBane Jan 2013 #87
MineralMan Jan 2013 #96
BainsBane Jan 2013 #98
Pauldg47 Jan 2013 #88
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #99
BootinUp Jan 2013 #100
WillyT Jan 2013 #101

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:05 PM

1. More: Not everyone who claims to be progressive or liberal is.

There are deceivers out there. They claim one thing, but act in ways that belie their claims. Reject their message. Take the challenge President Obama has given us for his second term and provide the support that will make those changes happen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:11 PM

2. Kinda disagree, after we lost Ted Kennedy, the senate has been gridlocked.

I think we had 60 Dem senators prior to Scott Brown. So, the filibuster wasn't an issue.

I might may not have my facts accurate, but I saw a Frontline Documentary about the ACA and how the election of Scott Brown kind of threw a monkey in the wrench.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LeftInTX (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:13 PM

3. And yet, things got done. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

They will be done by this Congress, too, despite the pressure on them not to do anything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:45 PM

68. Things got done in the first two years

 

Like RomneyCare and the Afghan surge, increased warrantless wiretapping, whistleblower persecutions, droning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CranialRectaLoopback (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:47 PM

70. What a post!

And I love your screen name, too. Great combo.

RomneyCare, eh?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #70)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:53 PM

91. Or GingrichCare

 

As The Neutored One proposed it as an alternative to HillaryCare in the early 90s

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CranialRectaLoopback (Reply #91)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:05 PM

93. Yup. Indeed, a lot is getting done.

Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702

The Enemy Expatriation Act - another attack on legitimate protest and dissent like NDAA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022072450

FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578

NDAA 2013 - Indefinite detention without trial is back
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014342985

Congress, at Last Minute, Drops Requirement to Obtain Warrant to Monitor Email
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014348022

Democratic-controlled US Senate approves...new $633 billion war bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022060449

Purposely aiming bombs at children: "It kind of opens our aperture."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021931748

The Pentagon's New 30,000-lb MOP Bomb Is Ready To Go
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022200058

Obama Administration To Offer More Than 20 Million Acres in Western Gulf of Mexico for Oil/Drilling
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1896005

Obama's (Corporate) Education Reform Push is Bad Education Policy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x221922

Obama's 'Race To The Top' Drives Nationwide Wave of School Closings, Teacher Firings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2183810

Trans Pacific Partnership is NAFTA On Steroids
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1914478

NYT slams the government for choosing not to prosecute HSBC top-bankers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965407

Why is Social Security Under Attack from Obama, when it ADDS NOTHING to the deficit???
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022065493

Obama: "Too many of us have been interested in defending programs as written in 1938."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid

Surely every American must realize any cuts hereinafter made to social security, Medicare, or Medicaid...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022191730

Health insurers raising rates by double digits
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014358823

So now we are mysteriously falling short of Democratic votes for filibuster reform.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021809132

Why Harry and the Democrats gave away filibuster reform
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022251878

Nine Democrats signed letter urging quick approval of Keystone XL pipeline
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022250081
.....


The Democratic Party's Deceitful Game
http://www.salon.com/2010/02/23/democrats_34/


Yup, yup, yup. Lots getting done.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Reply #93)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:07 PM

94. Thank you! And thanks for the links.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CranialRectaLoopback (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:16 PM

81. Shhh.

Thou shalt not speak. Sposed to celebrate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CranialRectaLoopback (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:49 PM

89. Thanks for your CONCERN. nt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #89)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:00 PM

92. I am concerned, even if you aren't.

 

I'm not a fan of the lesser of two evils. And my calling out that which I oppose is my way of "Making him do it", or do you approve of all those accomplishments?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CranialRectaLoopback (Reply #92)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:28 PM

95. No, you're just another Obama-hater. Good luck while you're here. nt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #95)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:04 AM

103. Disagreeing with disagreeable policy

 

Does not a hater make. The Obama I liked was the Obama who was against warrantless wiretapping before he was for it. The Obama I liked was the Obama who wanted to meet with Iranian leaders before he wanted to "regime change" them. The Obama I liked was the Obama who wanted to renegotiate NAFTA before he signed three more SHAFTAs. In other words, the Obama I liked was Candidate Obama. But then, I believe actions speak louder than words. You, apparently not so much.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LeftInTX (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:35 PM

18. For a little over 4 months, there were 60 Senators...

Al Franken wasn't seated until July 7, 2009, and Kennedy was already absent at that point. Paul Kirk was seated Sept 24 as a temporary replacement for Ted Kennedy, giving the Dems 60 Senate seats, but Kirk was replaced by Scott Brown on Feb 4, 2010.

Sept 24 to Feb 4 is 133 days.

Sid

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SidDithers (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:33 PM

59. giving the dems 60 votes counting the one from Sanders and the one from LIEberman

Dems never had 60 members in the senate then

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:41 PM

65. Not to mention ...

the 6 blue-dog Democrats that we could pretty much COUNT on voting with the gop!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #65)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:44 PM

67. thanks, in my haste I'd forgotten them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:52 PM

73. Sorry. You're 100% right...

I should have been more clear. I meant Dem Senators and those who caucus with the Dems.

Thanks.

Sid

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SidDithers (Reply #73)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:22 PM

85. No problem

Peace

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:15 PM

4. I don't like it, but I have to support Harry on this.

This issue is far more complex than those who seem to be setting their hair on fire over it realize.

Here are some hypotheticals:

What if the nuclear option results in giving the GOP an automatic campaign slogan to win back the Senate?

What if the GOP continues their obstruction in spite of Dems playing fair and gives Dems a built-in campaign slogan to retain, or build on, their Senate majority.

What if Harry Reid is right and this has the best chance for the Democratic Party going forward? And if the GOP manages to take the Senate majority in 2015, the last thing we want is for the minority to be toothless.

If I could think of a nightmare scenerio it would be on the order of the second hypothetical -- the GOP continues to obstruct everything. I don't see that as being good for them after November's election.

So let's all please keep the lit matches away from our scalps. Since we now have to live with this, let us see how this works out before we condemn an outcome which has not yet occurred.

Thank you all, friends.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:17 PM

6. Thank you n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:18 PM

7. Yes. I was surprised to see Barbara Boxer and Diane

Feinstein not in support of the filibuster change. There are reasons to argue that it should not be changed back to the old talking filibuster. I disagree with those reasons, but I'm not in the Senate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:22 PM

9. As do I disagree.

But we live in the world we live in, not one of our imagination.

I will stand by the Senate Democrats.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:23 PM

10. Yes, that's true. Realism has always

been part of politics, unfortunately.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:29 PM

16. But ...

unfortunately, only the Democratic leadership, and far too few of the Democratic electorate, realize this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:48 PM

27. Should the Republicans ever get control of the Senate, dont count on them remembering

Sen Reid's actions today. When they last had the majority they never invoked the nuclear option but they used it as a threat to get their way.

The Senate is busted without filibuster reform. We had an opportunity to fix it but choose not to. Now we have no excuse to blame the Republicans because we choose the status quo. Those that are disappointed that 9 Democrats (possibly one independent) decided to support the Republicans on this issue should not be characterized as crazy.

It's not worth the trade off to settle for two more years of obstruction just to blame Republicans. Besides the public will most likely blame Democrats because we appear to have control of the Senate. I dont know how many times I have heard, "But the Democrats control the Senate."

I realize we must go forward, but I cant help feel betrayed by a handful (9) of Democratic Senators.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:55 PM

31. You should't "feel" like you were betrayed.

You were.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:14 PM

44. I choose to not project into the future here.

So, I have no choice but to reject your assumptions of what will or will not happen because of this. Politics is messy that way.

I do not like this, but I will support the Senate Democrats regardless. In the end, they very well be right. They may be wrong, too. But it is too early to determine that.

Since what has happened has happened, let's at least get behind the Senate we have and work towards the future. If that means changing senators, so be it. Just make sure that they are Democrats.

Thanks for your response to my post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #44)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:24 PM

50. I understand and appreciate your optimism, but if the patient is bleeding

we can surmise that he may bleed to death in the next two years. It's fair to project based on past performance.

I am not saying we shouldnt continue to fight, just pointing out what we are up against. Republicans and conservative-Democrats.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:40 PM

64. Or Democratic Senators that realize that majorities come and go.

That explains things quite nicely with few other assumptions.

We all discussed these aspects of this issue for the past four years here. A possible future GOP majority was always an undeniable cloud on the horizon. We've all seen it happen more than once, even the youngest DUers must acknowledge that fact.

So why now do some DUers seem so surprised and hurt when the filibuster still essentially stands with only minor changes?

It is not because the Democrats caved; it is because they may be in the minority again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:45 PM

69. With respect I think you are wrong. Even if we get in the minority, there is absolutely

no guarantee that the REpublicans then wont change the rule to make it hard for the minority Democrats to filibuster. In fact, when the Republicans last had majority they used the threat of the nuclear option to force Democrats to get in line. The rule needs to be fixed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:02 PM

75. Well, the majority makes the rules.

So it can go back and forth and back and forth along with who owns the majority.

The Dems just might not want that kind of world war on the Senate floor. I am sure that the Republicans don't either. That's another hypothetical one must consider.

When making such decisions you cannot make assumptions about outcomes. You have to consider all the possibilities and weigh them appropriately.

Killing the filibuster is a very, very risky thing to do! I don't blame the Democrats for being skitterish about doing it. Especially without support from the opposition it is hugely risky!

I support Harry Reid on this. He didn't cave at all. He played his hand well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to longship (Reply #75)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:06 PM

77. No one is suggesting "killing the filibuster", just make it reasonable.

Making it reasonable shouldnt offend anyone nor give anyone an advantage. Current rules give the minority way too much power. We can reform without hurting the minorities ability to filibuster.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #77)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:15 PM

80. But doing it unilaterally would have been very bad for Dems.

Harry made his position clear.

1. The GOP has been abusing the filibuster in an unprecedented amount.

2. Either work with Democrats on fixing it, or Democrats will act without you.

It wasn't Harry who caved; it was the GOP.

Did we get what we wanted? Nope!

Did the GOP get what they wanted? Nope!

Plus, we do not know what else went on. President Obama and Democratic wins in November have got to have the GOP worried. The Senate is generally a collegial chamber. I am sure there was a handshake behind the scenes in addition to the new rules.

Please, don't presume a negative outcome until we know the outcome.

Thanks again for your response.

As always.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:15 PM

5. Thank you n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:19 PM

8. And thank you for supporting real change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:25 PM

12. But ... But ... But ...

whining is sooo much simpler.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:57 PM

32. and so is condescension

and phony "understanding".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to russspeakeasy (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:39 PM

63. Point noted ...

Now would you like to address the substance of my condescension and phony understanding?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to russspeakeasy (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:51 PM

90. Do tell. Please explain what you mean by "condescension and phony understanding". nt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:03 PM

38. Indeed......n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:24 PM

11. We only needed 50 votes. We have 53 Democratic Senators and 2 Independents.

Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)

Means 5 were willing to vote Republican. Not a good omen. I do appreciate your optimism.

Edited to correct numbers of Democrats in the Senate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:26 PM

14. Optimism ...

based in exactly the numbers you cite.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:36 PM

60. If history plays out like it has in the past we'll not always have a majority

We'd be really fucked when the pukies get in control. Dems are level headed and for the most part will always do what is right for the country where as the pukies are ready to nuke the country and take us all down if given the chance. big diff

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:42 PM

66. If you are suggesting we shouldnt "fix" this rule that has been abused

only because we might want to abuse it in the future, I say no. No one, Dem or repub should be able to abuse this rule. And if we dont fix this, the Republicans can "fix" it when they get in power. They wont care that we were the good guys in 2012. The rule doesnt work as is. It needs to be fixed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #66)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:47 PM

71. For the most part we play by the rules where as the pukes don't or won't

If the votes were there I'm sure Reid would have fixed it but I don't think they were so this is as good as it gets for now. We just have to make sure we get enough real dems in the Senate that can be counted on then maybe something will get done

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #71)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:49 PM

72. I agree with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:20 PM

83. Glad somebody's optimistic.

Sure wouldn't want all of us down in the dumps. If only turning a blind eye accomplished anything, rhett o Rick, huhn?

It's all good it's all good it's all good it's all good it's all good....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:25 PM

13. Reid said that he had the 51 votes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:27 PM

15. If he actually had them, the change would have been put to a vote.

It was not, so I'm guessing he didn't have them. If he had only 50, the VP could have voted, but that would be a very unpopular thing among Senate members, and might have resulted in a defection or two.

So, I disagree. I do not believe he actually had 51 votes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:37 PM

20. so you don't take his word for it, and YOU know better

got it.

Senate Democrats have the 51 votes necessary to weaken the filibuster, the top two Democrats declared unequivocally on Wednesday.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) said he’s continuing discussions with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) over a bipartisan resolution. But when asked if he has the 51 votes for filibuster reform via the constitutional option if that fails, he didn’t mince words.

“Yes,” Reid said.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/01/harry-reid-has-51-votes-filibuster-reform.php

Harry Reid: “I’m not personally, at this stage, ready to get rid of the 60-vote threshold”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/24/harry-reid-explains-why-he-killed-filibuster-reform/

No matter how you may try, the EVIDENCE just does NOT support what you're claiming. Period.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:27 PM

54. The Ezra Klein Washington Post article is fairly comprehensive.

Includes the actual rule changes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/ruleshanges.pdf

(I have no idea what any of this actually means. It's all legalise or something)

The good news according to the WaPo, other wise it seems like same old:
What will be reformed is how the Senate moves to consider new legislation, the process by which all nominees — except Cabinet-level appointments and Supreme Court nominations

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:38 PM

62. I think I agree with you. First, it isnt a valid argument to say "but he said" when refering to a

politician.

Now is it possible that he had the votes (therefore didnt lie) and choose not to call the vote? If so, what would be the ramifications? Would those that favored reform come out and expose his inaction?

If he didnt have the votes, why didnt he? It would mean that nine Democrats (or 8 D and 1 I) would vote with Republicans on stifling reform. Is that possible? Wouldnt that be embarrassing and harm their reelection possibilities?

Some have suggested, foolishly IMO, that the Democrats are afraid if they reform the filibuster rule it might come back to bite them in the future if the REpublicans get control. Have to add that this argument is absurd to the max. First of all the Republicans would sure as hell change the rules in the future if they thought for a second it would help them. In fact they used the threat of the nuclear option to get their way in the past. The only reason they didnt use is was because the Democrats caved when threatened. Besides, the rule can be abused and needs to be changed.

Sorry I rambled.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:21 PM

46. Minor point. Currently there are only 99 Senators. He only needs 50 not counting Biden. nm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:23 PM

47. Thanks for that clarification.

I had forgotten that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:21 PM

84. But he sure made Turtle happy.

He was grinning from ear to ear.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:34 PM

17. Hear, hear!

MinMan, I am as sick as you are of the people who are allegedly on our side pulling us all down like crabs in a bucket at every single opportunity. And if there isn't an opportunity, they'll just make shit up.

GOTV for 2014 -- give the President a House he can work with -- send Blue Dogs from bright red districts and call it a victory -- send left- Dems wherever you can -- just git 'er done!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:38 PM

22. Thank you! When some declare utter failure

at the least setback, It pisses me off. That is not how we will win. It is a prescription for losing, or perhaps a hope on the part of some who cry doom and gloom every time something doesn't go a certain way. Setbacks should only be encouragement to try harder, not to give up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:46 PM

26. I think you are right about it being...

... a hope on the part of those who write that way that Obama and the Dems will in fact lose. Anyone can have a bad day or night posting anonymous rants on the internet -- but time after time after time, and it makes you wonder about their real motives, y'know?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:00 PM

36. Yep.

And, TBH, as much as I had noticed this during the election season, I've also noticed a very similar problem with a small, but rather vocal, faction of our resident environmentalists.....better known as the "climate doomers". And believe me, sometimes, they're about as annoying as those hand-wringers who were screaming about a supposed inevitable Romney win.....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:27 PM

55. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "... what calls itself 'the Left'" appears to have

base-building at ***ALL*** costs with no regard as to what would actually be possibly successful with that base once they get it built, much higher in its priorities than anything that might actually work.

Maybe it's from being around an Occupy and seeing something like this, maybe it's just wider experience, when someones won't specify for you/us exactly what/where/when/why/whom/how their agenda is, when they won't commit like that, it's because they are afraid of being taken apart by whomever they are recruiting. In the case of what calls itself "the Left" that makes them EXACTLY the same as President Obama whom they have tried to harm in any and every way possible for something that they themselves have never concretely specified, that what/where/when/etc. stuff.

This means that PO and what calls itself "the Left" are competing for some of the same base and, when it comes to trusting people, I prefer those who know the most about whatever they're claiming, and don't just pick and choose things like drones (which IS an authentic and significant justice issue, btw) to take pot-shots in the name of something that is hiding behind a mask and CAN'T know everything that it is pretending to know AND refuses to specify its vision in concrete terms for fear of losing base. To me, all of that adds up to "Meet the "new" boss, SAME as the old boss."

I know exactly what Howard Zinn has to say about how all of these trade-offs worked themselves out prior to the Civil War and why all of that failed, but I don't think that means that you take up with just any old "revolution" that makes some fucking noise, especially since their charade could hurt some very very vulnerable people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:37 PM

61. P.S. I'd LOVE to see a real Left!!! but I have to be honest that about all I've seen so far is

one or more cadres of issue fascists.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to patrice (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:57 PM

102. Fascist? Who is reaping the proceeds of production, Patrice?

I see little call for marriage between business and government save from the freedom loving "centrist" promising plenty of public/private partnerships, all the "stakeholders" at the table, flag pin wearing, too big to fail empowering, God Bless the Troops saying, and all the "free trade" one can shake a stick at that are the non-fascist.

Where is the militancy and hyper nationalism?

What is it that you are trying to express when you make a statement like this? When you say fascist it makes no connection to reality, according to my perception. What does the word mean to you and why are you specifically electing to use it in this context? I guess I mean for what effect?

Is it blanket for authoritarian to you? Why do you not perceive that those on the flip aren't at least equally put out? In what situations?

I feel you are throwing the word around and I don't think that is your honest intent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:00 PM

74. It just occurred to me: we have to consider the possibility that what calls itself "the Left" didn't

step up for this filibuster reform vote, so, instead of Reid killing a vote because it was going to succeed (which is what I was thinking), maybe he killed it because it wasn't going to succeed.

Why wouldn't what calls itself "the Left" step up and phone-lobby for a talking filibuster? Hypothesis: what calls itself "the Left" REALLY does contain more Right Wingers than I previously thought and all of the research publishing about their tendencies toward terrorism lately has them in a vengeance frame of mind - AND - MoveOn + Tea Party marriage is bearing fruit. Labor organizers I have known do not like MoveOn and, now, we might note the migration OUT of unions we're hearing about. I also used to do peace stuff with MoveOn, until righties/Paulites started getting on that band-wagon and I have felt for a while that MoveOn will break hard right against anyone but the old AFLCIO guard, inheritors of Nixon's benediction, and especially hard right against anything coming from the SEIU and IWW.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:37 PM

19. Thanks for posting this.

There are people online whose objective appears to be to persuade us not even to get out of bed in the morning. Next time one of them predicts the future, I'm going to cut to the chase and ask for lottery numbers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CBHagman (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:38 PM

23. My pleasure, and I agree with you.

Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:37 PM

21. Focus: 2014

While I am disappointed there weren't the votes to knock back more of the filibuster rules I also know that change inside the beltway goes at glacial speed and any changes here are better than none. Harry couldn't "be LBJ"...give an evil glance and votes would appear. Seems in times like this a bit of a history and civics lesson around here is in order (not that those with a beef and agenda will ever pay any heed).

Many Democrats are justifiably worried about 2014...there are more Democrats up for re-election than rushpublicans and many fail to realize that without the stupidity of several "strong" rushpublican candidates we could be dealing with Turtleman setting the agenda. Fortunately that's not the case, but that's not the case in two years and I think that has a lot to do with what happened today. Eliminate the filibuster and if and/or when the Democrats become the minority our lives will be truly hell.

Want to make bigger changes? Then work to help get more liberal and progressive Democrats elected in 2014...our numbers are growing but more are needed to bring the changes so many hear are demanding...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:39 PM

24. Excellent points.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:46 PM

25. Expatriots?

WHere?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ErikJ (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:51 PM

29. Expatriates. Some are quoted regularly here.

Did I spell it incorrectly. I don't think so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:09 PM

42. There's also posters active on DU who never have voted and never will vote for a Democrat

At least one of them agrees with you virtually all the time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:12 PM

43. There are many posters on DU.

I post my own posts, and don't pay a lot of attention to who agrees with me or doesn't. I'm an independent sort of guy. What I post is what I think.

You can count on that, every time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:25 PM

52. You seem pretty good at writing posts people want to rec

I know the formula but I'm not interested in guano agitation, I prefer to write OPs that promote pulling together rather than splitting apart, for some reason most of those OPs don't do as well as divisive ones.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1240208988

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #52)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:29 PM

56. Not really. My posts get a few recs, but far fewer than many other posters.

I don't write posts to get DU Recs, though. I write posts to express my opinion or ideas. What happens after that depends on many factors. Bottom line is that the subject of this thread is not me. It never was. The subject of this thread is defeatism. I haven't seen you mention anything about that or really anything having to do with the thread. You've mentioned some unnamed DUer, and have commented on me, though. That's not the topic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:13 PM

78. I comment on named DUers also

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2238916

And don't be hiding your light under a bushel, you're quite popular here on DU. Just because I tend to speak up more often when I disagree than when I agree doesn't mean I always disagree with you, I think you often make good points but your commentary seems to often carry what I hear as divisive dog whistles.

You admitted some time ago that you have been known to troll for effect.

Allow people to express disappointment, while it's totally unsurprising not getting the filibuster significantly changed is still a major setback.






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #78)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:01 PM

97. I do not troll on DU. Ever. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:52 AM

104. All those dog whistles make it into your posts by accident?

You're both smarter and a better writer than I am, I find that extremely hard to believe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:48 PM

28. ALL true K&R!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:59 PM

34. And I think Harkin's wrong, too.

How's that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:58 PM

33. Excellent post, MineralMan!

Indeed, we've worked hard to get where we are, and we didn't do it because we threw in the towel; we did it because we dedicated whatever resources we could to make our hopes come true. And it's worked.

(Now, if somebody could just modify this a little and try to talk some sense into our resident climate doomers..... )

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:00 PM

35. Gosh, us of lesser understanding are so please with

your guidance.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to russspeakeasy (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:03 PM

39. Sarcasm works better when it's spelled correctly,

to be quite frank. See ya around.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:07 PM

41. Gosh, thanks again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:02 PM

37. A celebration of defeat, uh?

Turn that frown upside down!

It is a topsy-turvy world ... when in a democracy those who are anguish over the continuing 'tyranny of the minority' in the U.S. Senate are accused of being the "defeatists and doomsayers."

Sometimes things are what they are: this is a defeat for the Obama agenda; it is a defeat for majority rule; it is a defeat for basic American principles of representative government.

To paraphrase: Some ... who celebrate defeat ... are not even on your side, despite their use of the word lefty or left in their screen names."

Thinking of Harry Reid ... on our side?



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to earthside (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:05 PM

40. You'll forgive me, I'm sure,

if I ignore your words and keep right on working, right?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:18 PM

45. Oh my, not the expatriates!

 

They lost every right to tell us things suck after they left due to so much thing-sucking.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:23 PM

48. Mineral Man has so much more knowlege than current Congressional Democrats, that we look forward

to his 2014 run for the House so he can implement and share his knowledge of progressive policy with the entire Congress.

We should all nominate and support his draft to run Whoo Hoo, Mineral Man in 2014!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:25 PM

51. Another name I'm not familiar with. Thanks

for your reply, and for reading my post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:24 PM

49. There must have been something added to the bill that made dems vote no. Hopefully new one coming

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:26 PM

53. "doomsayer" is just a synonym for "realist". nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Speck Tater (Reply #53)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:31 PM

58. No, you know, it's not.

They are very different words. I am a realist, which means that sometimes I have to deal with accepting less than I hoped for. I am not a doomsayer, though. I believe that hard work and perseverance can make things happen. Hence my call for working to regain a majority in the House. I believe that can happen, but it will require the work of all of us. If some just give up, it will be much harder to make it happen.

The two words are not synonyms at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:29 PM

57. Most got accomplished in the first 2 years where we had the majority. There is no evidence to back

Your position that the filibuster would not be used for most things as they did the last two years

Reid dropped the ball, again

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:04 PM

76. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:15 PM

79. As always,the haters just see bad of everything, instead of looking ahead.

 

The public don't care about the fillibuster, it cares about moving ahead.

any fillibusting done will be at the direct detremental effect to the repubs and as the house is needed to get anything actually done, we need to win the house back and keep the senate.

Which is extremely possible in 2014.

Life is not a one year cycle.

and Harry Reid above all knows the way the senate is run. The little things. Knows when a loophole is around.

Knows the difference from a grand statement now leading to a major problem later, instead of going forward long term

Long term not instant gratification works best.

Harry Reid knows that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:18 PM

82. Who are they?

Who are the Democrats who would not have voted to revise the filibuster process?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:22 PM

86. it is all coming from the usual quarters

eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:24 PM

87. Someone sent a bullshit alert on your post

Claiming it was spam. The jury voted to leave it 5-1.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #87)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 07:55 PM

96. Thanks. Someone always alerts on

my OPs. Funny.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #96)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 10:00 PM

98. mine too

I also have the distinction of being the center of a number of Meta threads. So when I don't get a hide, they make a point of posting something there. It's usually the gunners.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:47 PM

88. GREAT JOB!!!!........You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!

....let them giggle and laugh that they "got us", but they are digging a mass grave for themselves. Of a matter of fact the more they're exposed and called out, these rebukes will regurgitate On themselves as time goes by.

If they want to play their little games, they'll be ousted!! No doubt about it! Honestly though, I don't think they are that bright. After all they really thought the election was in the bag; didn't they?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 10:05 PM

99. Daily temper tantrum

Forgotten in a week, maybe two.

High intensity, low duration, like every little storm here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:22 PM

100. I recc'd this

we need more positive vibes (or I do anyways).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:25 PM

101. You Are Correct Sir... We Should Exept Everything That Is Said... At Face Value...




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread