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Segami

(14,923 posts)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:24 PM Jan 2013

Democratic Representative Introduces Two Bills To OVERTURN Citizens United Ruling





One day after the three-year anniversary of the landmark Supreme Court ruling for Citizens United, the fight to overturn it has begun. Two bills were introduced by U.S. Representative Jim McGovern of Massachusetts: one that declares that corporations are not people, and one that says that Congress has the power to regulate the financing of political campaigns.



Both pieces of legislation are the first step in what will likely be a long and bitter fight to make an addition to the U.S. Constitution. If successful, it would mark the 28th Amendment to this country’s sacred document of governance. The last time an amendment was ratified was in 1992. It took over 200 years for it to pass the 2/3 majority of both Houses and the 3/4 majority of the states to meet the requirements. Most probably don’t remember it. It determined when changes could be made to Congress’ pay. Most would not consider that a life-altering change. However, many would agree that the current proposed Amendment does matter to them.



Shortly after the Supreme Court ruled for Citizens United, 80% said that they disagreed with the ruling. Since then, sentiment has softened some, with 62% saying they opposed the ruling. A recent poll by the Pew Research Center had similar findings. Of those who were familiar with the Supreme Court ruling, 65% felt that the Super PACs had a negative impact on campaigns. Surely, supporters realize that as time passes, their window of opportunity will get smaller.



That’s why the groups that support the Amendment are making sure people don’t forget. Groups pushing for the Amendment include Free Speech for People, Public Citizen, and People for the American Way. Move to Amend is another group that has worked hard to gather support for the change. They have regular rallies to spread the word, their website is full of information on the topic, and their petition has over 250,000 signers. Whichever version you look at, they all seem to come to the same conclusion – corporations are not people. Congressman McGovern stated it best when he proposed his version:






The fact is, corporations are not people. And the Constitution was never intended to give corporations the same rights as the American people. Corporations don’t breathe. They don’t have kids. And they don’t die in wars.
55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Democratic Representative Introduces Two Bills To OVERTURN Citizens United Ruling (Original Post) Segami Jan 2013 OP
Excellent! tosh Jan 2013 #1
Corporations just Tagish_Charlie Jan 2013 #12
DU is a corporation. nt onenote Jan 2013 #22
If you resent that obvious fact, I'm quite sure you are free to leave. Meanwhile, kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #51
I cannot make any sense of your post onenote Jan 2013 #52
Not a big deal. truebluegreen Jan 2013 #2
This proposed amendment strips all corporations (including LLCs) of all constitutional rights. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #3
I don't believe in constitutional rights for corporations. Even DU. nt Comrade_McKenzie Jan 2013 #9
How about the New York Times Corp? (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #15
Do you think a corporation can be sued? cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #18
never heard of the Pentagon Papers case? onenote Jan 2013 #21
How about the NAACP, MoveOn, every labor union onenote Jan 2013 #23
Planned Parenthood is not a natural person, so has zero constitutional rights Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #32
Somehow I dont think thats an accurate representation quakerboy Jan 2013 #14
And it's not like if the First Amendment was overturned, people would immediately be arrested Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #16
To keep it from happening to People quakerboy Jan 2013 #17
So under your system, book publishers could be prevented from publishing books Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #31
Not even a little bit quakerboy Jan 2013 #36
So if I understand correctly, under your proposal, a publisher that is a corporation could be banned Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #37
Read it again, sam. quakerboy Jan 2013 #39
So I think that's a very long "yes" (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #40
Nope quakerboy Jan 2013 #41
Excellent. So corporations *do* have some constitutional rights. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #42
No. quakerboy Jan 2013 #47
Ah. So it *would* be constitutional for Congress to ban corporations from publishing books Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #50
Misdirection quakerboy Jan 2013 #54
But redheads and US citizens are not "corporations". Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #55
But are you okay when the power of the state is used to go after a corporate entity for its speech? onenote Jan 2013 #43
This argument appears to be over. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #45
That's a false argument quakerboy Jan 2013 #48
Explain how "direct ownership" of the NAACP would work? How do you make it a "natural person" onenote Jan 2013 #49
Thats exactly my point quakerboy Jan 2013 #53
I love it. And the language is very plain. Could get a lot of traction. freshwest Jan 2013 #4
I just love my Congressman McGovern! sheshe2 Jan 2013 #8
Very, very timely. Although with the revelations of the NRA types supplying arms abroad... freshwest Jan 2013 #10
I doubt it will get any traction onenote Jan 2013 #33
K&R Historic NY Jan 2013 #5
From Ma. here...Kick and F***ing Rec! sheshe2 Jan 2013 #6
This would have to pass both the House and Senate correct? davidpdx Jan 2013 #7
The filibuster will stop any path to sanity. It must be changed. The Wielding Truth Jan 2013 #11
I agree davidpdx Jan 2013 #25
This may be the king pin to saving our country from total corruption. The Wielding Truth Jan 2013 #34
It's a Constitutional Amendment. It needs a 2/3rds majority in the Senate and House, Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #13
That's what I thought davidpdx Jan 2013 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #19
Thank you, Jim McGovern! Cha Jan 2013 #20
This issue is so important Berlum Jan 2013 #26
Wonderful Idea... KharmaTrain Jan 2013 #27
SCOTUS rarely completely overturns their rulings davidn3600 Jan 2013 #29
True... KharmaTrain Jan 2013 #30
Oh, you mean the Ralph Nader's contribution to America. HE DID THIS graham4anything Jan 2013 #28
The campaign finance amendment repeals 1st amendment protection of political speech eallen Jan 2013 #35
YES. And the irony is that people like David Koch would still have unlimited free speech, Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #38
Harry will only let it come to a vote if it will FAIL Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #44
Its never ever coming to the Senate for a vote. And it should fail onenote Jan 2013 #46

tosh

(4,423 posts)
1. Excellent!
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:39 PM
Jan 2013

That is a GREAT quote, btw: "Corporations don’t breathe. They don’t have kids. And they don’t die in wars."

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
51. If you resent that obvious fact, I'm quite sure you are free to leave. Meanwhile,
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 05:47 PM
Jan 2013

I am not aware that DU is bribing politicians and buying elections and denying vast numbers of people their basic rights.

Thank you for your concern.

onenote

(42,694 posts)
52. I cannot make any sense of your post
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 06:49 PM
Jan 2013

But if you care about ensuring that entities like DU, the NAACP, MoveOn, labor unions, and the Democratic National Committee have free speech rights and are protected against warrantless, unreasonable searches, you should be opposed to McGovern's amendment as drafted.

You realize that under the proposed amendment, the Watergate break-in could have been conducted legally by Nixon simply directing the FBI to go into the DNC headquarters and take whatever they want since there would be no constitutional protection against such searches and seizures of the DNC (not a "natural person&quot . Or that the damages award against the NAACP for organizing a boycott against Claiborne Hardware would not have been overturned because the NAACP would have no first amendment rights?

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
2. Not a big deal.
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:40 PM
Jan 2013

At this point we need a constitutional amendment or for the Supreme Court to reverse itself.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
3. This proposed amendment strips all corporations (including LLCs) of all constitutional rights.
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:47 PM
Jan 2013

So for example, it would not be unconstitutional for the police to search the offices of DemocraticUnderground LLC without having a reason, or a warrant. And it would not be unconstitutional for the police to seize the assets of DU for no good cause.

Obviously this amendment has no chance of passing and is simply a publicity stunt.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
18. Do you think a corporation can be sued?
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:31 AM
Jan 2013

If so... how does that work, exactly?

You can't sue a rock or a tree...

onenote

(42,694 posts)
21. never heard of the Pentagon Papers case?
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:56 AM
Jan 2013

Never heard of FCC v. Pacifica?

Do you want bookstores, movie theaters, publishers, etc. to have First Amendment rights or do you want the government to be able to shut them down, censor them etc?

onenote

(42,694 posts)
23. How about the NAACP, MoveOn, every labor union
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:04 AM
Jan 2013

You really comfortable stripping all of them of their constitutional protections against search and seizure, censorship, etc.?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
32. Planned Parenthood is not a natural person, so has zero constitutional rights
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:27 AM
Jan 2013

according to many DUers.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
14. Somehow I dont think thats an accurate representation
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:14 AM
Jan 2013

Just because a corporation is lacking constitutional rights does not mean that police will immediately step in and sieze all they own. Any more than any person would suddenly be allowed to step in and burn down a building owned by a corporation.

By my understanding of history, corporations have not always had constitutional protections, and yet I understand they existed, without having the police seize their assets or randomly ransack them, from the founding of the country.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
16. And it's not like if the First Amendment was overturned, people would immediately be arrested
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:18 AM
Jan 2013

for criticizing the government. And newspapers would not immediately be placed under Government control.

And if Roe versus Wade was overturned, women would not immediately be prevented from terminating pregnancies.

The point of the Constitution is to prevent laws from being passed that would allow this kind of bad stuff.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
17. To keep it from happening to People
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:19 AM
Jan 2013

And people would still have the constitution to protect them.

The constitution was not put in place to protect corporations.

Nor was it put in place allow people to avoid personal responsibility by using a legal fiction of corporation.

The answer is simple. If you have a corporation, you make it into a personal holding. Then you are the person owning the office, the papers, the posessions, and you have all your constitutional protections.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
31. So under your system, book publishers could be prevented from publishing books
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:25 AM
Jan 2013

critical of an election candidate, during the run up to an election.

However, you would allow an exception to this for publishers that were owned by lone billionaires.

Not sure that this is the best outcome.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
36. Not even a little bit
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 09:07 PM
Jan 2013

Seeing as I've printed several small books at home, and there are at least three independent publishers within a few miles of my home, which can publish politically charged materials at any time they find it financially or morally expedient to do so, regardless of whether they are a corporation or the property of an individual person.

I have free speech. A corporation does not need free speech when each of the owners has their own individual free speech. Same for property rights. Same for all constitutional rights.

As I understand it the original purpose of a corporation was to allow several people to merge resources to accomplish (socially beneficial) tasks that were greater than any one of them could do alone. Today their main purpose appears to be a legal fictions to allow individuals to accomplish tax avoidance and other plunder that they could or would not do without a legal intermediary.

They do not need constitutional rights to do the first, but they do need them to efficiently accomplish the latter. Thus they do not need them at all.

As far as I can see you are trying to drag in any possible exception to this, but each one falls flat on their face when examined. Millionaires already own the major presses, and they will not print your political books unless they see fit. That wouldn't change whether there is a corporate entity isolating the owner from any responsibility or not.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
37. So if I understand correctly, under your proposal, a publisher that is a corporation could be banned
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jan 2013

from publishing political books in the run up to an election. But an individual would be allowed to self-publish political books at home, to his heart's content, without restriction. Because the individual would have First Amendment protection but the publisher that was a corporation would not.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
39. Read it again, sam.
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:12 PM
Jan 2013

Look up sole proprietorships. Then Partnerships. then cooperatives. Then corporations.

There are many ways to protect the rights of people, even in cooperation with other individuals, including the right to own business property or publish controversial books, without giving corporations legal person hood or, if we do give them some form of that, without granting corporations the constitutional rights of human beings.

Then there's plain ol normal statute law. As far as I am aware, there is no constitutional requirement to regulate drug use or have a department of agriculture or require drivers licenses. Yet we do all of these things. Lawfully. Non constitutionally. No reason that corporate rights and responsibilities cannot be defined in law without have any call on constitutional protections.

Or to put it in a little more concrete fashion, Corporate persons having access to constitutional rights wasn't really a thing back at the founding of the country, as I understand it. Yet publishers (and other businesses) existed in the 13 states, without being raided at the whim of authorities, without having their business items capriciously taken by the government.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
41. Nope
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:03 PM
Jan 2013

Its a fairly short no, Along with an explanation of why even though it looks like it might technically be almost correct, sorta, if you wiggle your way upside down and backwards to stare at it from exactly the right misleading angle, why.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
42. Excellent. So corporations *do* have some constitutional rights.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
Jan 2013

It seems that this was a productive discussion.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
47. No.
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 04:26 PM
Jan 2013

They are a legal fiction, not persons. They are only entitled to such "rights" as society chooses to give them. I do not believe they have any inalienable rights, nor any constitutionally granted rights.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
50. Ah. So it *would* be constitutional for Congress to ban corporations from publishing books
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 04:56 PM
Jan 2013

that are critical of election candidates, during the run up to an election. Because these corporations do not have any "constitutionally protected rights".


quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
54. Misdirection
Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:46 AM
Jan 2013

Under that measure, its also constitutional to require all redheads to regularly dye their hair black, require all us citizens to wear superhero tights on Tuesdays, or to give every US citizen a pony.

In fact, doubly misdirection. US governments have already banned books that they didn't like. Making the point moot

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
55. But redheads and US citizens are not "corporations".
Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:27 AM
Jan 2013

You stated that corporations have no constitutional rights.

Therefore, you think that it is perfectly constitutional for Congress to pass a law banning corporations from publishing political books during the run up to an election.


onenote

(42,694 posts)
43. But are you okay when the power of the state is used to go after a corporate entity for its speech?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:30 PM
Jan 2013

Like the NY Times (in the Pentagon Papers case)
Like the NAACP (in the Claiborne Hardware case)
Like Hustler Magazine (in the Jerry Falwell libel case)

Are you really okay that each of these cases would have turned out differently if the First Amendment didn't apply to corporate entities?

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
48. That's a false argument
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 04:29 PM
Jan 2013

Every one of those cases can turn out the exact same with direct ownership of a company as opposed to incorporation. There is no need for incorporation to protect rights, and no need for constitutional rights to to protect corporations

onenote

(42,694 posts)
49. Explain how "direct ownership" of the NAACP would work? How do you make it a "natural person"
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 04:33 PM
Jan 2013

What about the Democratic National Committee? How do make it a "natural person"?

Also, I hope you understand that a company can be owned by one person and still be a company.

quakerboy

(13,919 posts)
53. Thats exactly my point
Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:34 AM
Jan 2013

A company can be owned by one person, or multiple people, be provided the protections of the rights of those owners, without having its own independent "human rights" as the legal fiction known as a corporation.

And in doing so reduce the unfair benefits to the individual/detriment to society that is provided by isolating persons from any legal responsibility for the actions they direct that corporation and its employees to take on their behalf, providing the corporation rights that even living people do not have access to.

sheshe2

(83,746 posts)
8. I just love my Congressman McGovern!
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 12:19 AM
Jan 2013
The fact is, corporations are not people. And the Constitution was never intended to give corporations the same rights as the American people. Corporations don’t breathe. They don’t have kids. And they don’t die in wars.


Well said Sir!

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
10. Very, very timely. Although with the revelations of the NRA types supplying arms abroad...
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 12:24 AM
Jan 2013

Which creates chaos and then our soldiers are called to go in and put out the fires. All for corporate profits. This should never be the way national policy is made. Good work by your MA rep!

onenote

(42,694 posts)
33. I doubt it will get any traction
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:02 AM
Jan 2013

I can't see newspapers, unions, groups like the NAACP, etc. giving up their constitutional right to free speech and their protection against unreasonable search and seizures.

Think about what this amendment would mean:

Pentagon Papers: never published.

NAACP: financially crippled by awared of damages against it for organizing a boycott against Claiborne Hardware

Jerry Falwell: laughing all the way to bank with his award of damages against Hustler Magazine for making fun of him.

TV programming, motion pictures, and music: stuck in the 1950s.

Internet sites like DU: censored or shut down.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
7. This would have to pass both the House and Senate correct?
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 12:18 AM
Jan 2013

Is that really going to happen? I agree with the concept and applaud him for introducing the bill, but I can't see it going anywhere. The House is run by the Republican, they'll stick it in a committee never to be seen again. Even if it made it over to the Senate, the filibuster reform is dead so it would never come to a floor vote there. Unless he's got some support from the other side (which I highly doubt since it will kill their funding) I wouldn't get too excited.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
25. I agree
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:59 AM
Jan 2013

I think it's been killed already though. There are enough Democrats that refuse to sign on to stop it. Last time I checked there were 7 on the list and none had budged.

The only thing I can think of is maybe Feinstein and Boxer are sitting on the fence on purpose to watch the Republicans hang themselves by saying they won't agree to anything and then Reid pulls out his pair of A's and lays his cards down. If that the case it allows most of the others to save face and vote against it or go with the no vote option.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
13. It's a Constitutional Amendment. It needs a 2/3rds majority in the Senate and House,
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:14 AM
Jan 2013

and it needs to be ratified by three quarters of the states.

Response to Segami (Original post)

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
27. Wonderful Idea...
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:10 AM
Jan 2013

...that doesn't stand a icecube's chance in hell of passing either house. The dirty secret is Citizens United makes politicians lazier...they don't have to go out and hit up the "little people" to support their campaigns. It's a lot easier to pander to a fat cat who can write 100k checks without feeling it vs. the poor schmuck who can only throw away $50 or $100. Find a sugar daddy...like Gnewt...and you can not only have your ego-laden campaign paid for but find way to grift for personal gain as well.

The quickest way to overturn CU will be replacing several of the right wing water carriers on the SCOTUS...no way that money-hungry politicians will cut off such a big spigot...

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
29. SCOTUS rarely completely overturns their rulings
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:25 AM
Jan 2013

Rulings can be weakened over time, but the vast majority of the time their rulings stay consistent when it is made.

Constitutional amendment is the only way to completely overturn CU.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
30. True...
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:34 AM
Jan 2013

...and my point being is I don't see politicians...including some Democrats (sad to say) that see this easy money spigot and will not vote to shut it off. The days of doing serious campaign finance reform are far behind us as the cost of running for office continues to get higher and higher. The court may not repeal their ruling but they sure can water it down...as I don't see any chance of getting 2/3rds of both houses and an even smaller chance in state legislatures...especially those controlled by rushpublicans.

The best hope is the fat cats keep losing...make it expensive for them to try to buy their perks...

Cheers...

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
28. Oh, you mean the Ralph Nader's contribution to America. HE DID THIS
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:18 AM
Jan 2013

Ralph Nader gave the nation this law by getting 10 million voters to stay home in 2000
because, well, the big freakin' egotist said both candidates were the same 10 million times
while being financed by the republican party to do what he did

then comes along Bush who gives us Alito and Roberts and voila this law enacted by the courts.

Of course without Ralph Nader, there wouldn't be this law

now, so many Naderites have this law as their #1 whine.
Gee, the Naderites should look in the mirror, because, for all intents and purposes, Ralph Nader's name should be on it

for he wrote it, he financed it, he gave the nation this (proverbially of course), but it is
his. HIS blood is on and in this bill.
He liked what he did, laughing all the way to the bank

because Bush and Gore and Kerry and President Obama are one and the same

except without Ralph Nader, the court by this time this bill was looked at, would have been a liberal court

Thank's Ralph Nader.
Tip of my hat to you.
No matter which way you slice and dice it, it is 100% due to Ralph Nader in 2000.
[img][/img]

remember, it will take Hillary45 to make the court change complete.
then this can be eradicated by the court.
alot quicker than any constitutional amendment which normally takes well over a decade anyhow.

eallen

(2,953 posts)
35. The campaign finance amendment repeals 1st amendment protection of political speech
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:56 PM
Jan 2013

As example, it would allow a Republican Congress to shut down this and other liberal websites. 1) Virtually everything posted here supports or opposes candidates for various offices, directly or indirectly. Certainly in election years. 2) It takes money to run this website.

Yeah, I know. Everyone here wants it to be used against big corporations, and in a fair fashion. What it does, though, is give Congress the power to regulate political speech, whenever money is involved in its production or distribution. Any Congress. For any purpose and in any way. That's a big stick. Does anyone here think, if the GOP managed to get a majority in both houses, that it wouldn't be used to shut down liberal speech?

That's not liberal. That's nuts.

Let me point out another law Congress could pass under this amendment. It could ban all political speech over the internet or phones. 1) Political speech by its nature influences elections. 2) It costs money to be connected.

The only political speech this amendment leaves Constitutionally protected is anything said face to face. Providing no one spent money to get to the meeting.




Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
38. YES. And the irony is that people like David Koch would still have unlimited free speech,
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 10:49 PM
Jan 2013

since he is a "natural person", while DemocraticUnderground LLC, Planned Parenthood, and Moveon.org would not.

This is a horrible amendment. The only good thing is that it clearly has no chance whatsoever of passing, and its proposal is obviously a stupid publicity stunt.

onenote

(42,694 posts)
46. Its never ever coming to the Senate for a vote. And it should fail
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:57 AM
Jan 2013

First,this was introduced in the House and its certainly not going anyway, even out of Committee, in the House. So consider it DOA.

Second, no one has offered a companion amendment in the Senate and I doubt anyone will. And if they do, it too will die before ever getting out of Committee.

And it should die. As several posts here have explained, it is a spectacularly ill-conceived amendment that would leave every corporate entity, from the New York Times to MoveOn to the NAACP to DU to the Democratic National Committee exposed to unreasonable search and seizure and to the denial of any first amendment rights. Imagine this: if this amendment was in place back in 1968, Richard Nixon wouldn't have had to worry about breaking into the Democratic Party headquarters at the Watergate. He could simply have had the FBI make a warrantless, baseless search of the premises. He could have had them seize all of the party's records. Since the Democratic National Committee is a corporate entity, not a natural person, it would have no basis for recourse.

That's only one example of how spectacularly bad this amendment is as drafted.

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