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Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:18 PM

Irish council backs measure to allow drinking & driving on rural roads at low speeds

Irish County: Drinking and Driving OK on Rural Roads
By coincidence, Kerry politician who introduced measure is a pub owner

Ireland's scenic County Kerry wants police to lighten up on this drinking-and-driving thing. The Kerry council backed a measure yesterday to allow people in rural areas to be able to knock back "two or three" pints at the local pub and drive home worry-free, reports the Guardian. The council member who introduced the measure just happens to be a pub owner, but he swears this is all about mental health, particularly for older people:

"They're traveling in very minor roads, often on tractors, with very little traffic and it's not right they're being treated the same as the rest of the traveling public, and they have never killed anyone," says Danny Healy-Rae.
The nation's tough DWI laws mean they have to stay home "looking at four walls," which leads to depression and suicide, he says. The 5-3 vote (19 members either abstained or skipped it entirely) means that the county will formally ask Ireland's justice minister to allow people to drive home from pubs "after having two or three drinks on little-used roads driving at very low speeds," reports the Irish Independent. No word on the chances of success, but the nation's road-safety chief calls the idea "unthinkable."

http://www.newser.com/story/161460/irish-county-drinking-and-driving-ok-on-rural-roads.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2

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Reply Irish council backs measure to allow drinking & driving on rural roads at low speeds (Original post)
Liberal_in_LA Jan 2013 OP
Marrah_G Jan 2013 #1
CalFresh Jan 2013 #2
former9thward Jan 2013 #3
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #5
joeybee12 Jan 2013 #7
former9thward Jan 2013 #10
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #19
former9thward Jan 2013 #21
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #24
former9thward Jan 2013 #27
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #15
former9thward Jan 2013 #17
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #23
former9thward Jan 2013 #30
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #32
former9thward Jan 2013 #37
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #43
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #46
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #49
elleng Jan 2013 #28
former9thward Jan 2013 #31
elleng Jan 2013 #41
Vincardog Jan 2013 #29
former9thward Jan 2013 #33
Vincardog Jan 2013 #40
former9thward Jan 2013 #51
Vincardog Jan 2013 #54
former9thward Jan 2013 #55
Vincardog Jan 2013 #56
former9thward Jan 2013 #57
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #44
derby378 Jan 2013 #36
former9thward Jan 2013 #38
Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #42
NCTraveler Jan 2013 #52
TexasTowelie Jan 2013 #4
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #6
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #8
former9thward Jan 2013 #11
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #22
former9thward Jan 2013 #25
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #34
former9thward Jan 2013 #39
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #48
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #9
NightWatcher Jan 2013 #12
warrprayer Jan 2013 #13
Liberal_in_LA Jan 2013 #14
warrprayer Jan 2013 #16
FSogol Jan 2013 #18
MissB Jan 2013 #20
shenmue Jan 2013 #26
Politicub Jan 2013 #35
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #47
Politicub Jan 2013 #50
Betty88 Jan 2013 #45
datasuspect Jan 2013 #53

Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:21 PM

1. .........

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:23 PM

2. Quick.

 

Someone call Lindsay Lohan. Sounds like a winner for her.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:26 PM

3. This is an area where DWI laws have overreached.

Older people who have been drinking all their lives drive as good or better with a few beers than if they were stone sober. There bodies and reactions have adapted to alcohol. DWI laws are one size fits all but have little relation to reality.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:42 PM

5. No way I don't agree. As an Irish woman living in rural America, its just not safe at any speed

Between the livestock issues (sheep, dogs, cats etc), walkers, bikers and joggers - you name it, its not as though these roads are empty.

They aren't. They're full of unpredictable shit that pops out at you unexpectedly and doesn't behave like a well ordered traffic light.

Besides, Irish rural roads aren't for the faint of heart driving under ideal conditions let alone drunk.

I say its a bad idea.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

7. Agree...and if there are quite a few of these old people who like to put away a few...

One is the designated driver and they can rotate the responsibility

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:57 PM

10. You are trying to paint a false picture.

No one is talking about letting drivers drive on roads swerving all over the place. As I stated older people drive just fine even though they may be a little over the legal definition of "drunk". It is likely they have been riding these roads for years and know every curve and bump by heart. Yet another person attempting to stop anybody else from relaxing and having a little fun in life. What intolerance.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:17 PM

19. False picture? Really? I am Irish. I've been on those roads so I know whereof I speak

Do you know what I do for a living? I'm a horse trader. I've traveled to Ireland to buy, import and re-sell horses so I really do drive rural Irish roads.

My relatives live in Bray which is in Wicklow - a major hiking area.

No way in hell should anyone be on those roads over the alcohol limit . Not here in America, not in Ireland.

Intolerant? I guess so. I'll wear that label proudly then.




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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:23 PM

21. What you do and where your relatives live is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

You have thrown up rhetorical strawmen to knock down. Congratulations. "Intolerant? I guess so. I'll wear that label proudly then." An honest poster.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:27 PM

24. Yes well, I pride myself on being honest. No self-delusions you see. Easier that way.



Good luck on your current campaign to re institute drunk driving.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:35 PM

27. Thank you. Bringing back murder is next.

Tabhair aire.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:12 PM

15. You win the 'dumbest post of the year' award

"Older people who have been drinking all their lives drive as good or better with a few beers than if they were stone sober. There bodies and reactions have adapted to alcohol."

That is mind-numbingly stupid. You know nothing about alcohol, it's clear.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:15 PM

17. Thank you.

Of course besides juvenile name calling you offered nothing to the conversation.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:25 PM

23. Fine - I'll show you why it's dumb

The purpose of this experiment was to determine a) the magnitude of alcohol impairment of driving skills as BACs varied from zero to 0.10% and b) whether age, gender, and drinking practice characteristics of the subjects would differentially affect alcohol impairment in a sample of subjects who were broadly representative of the driving population. Using a driving simulator and a divided attention task, 168 subjects were examined at BACs to 0.10% for moderate and heavy drinkers and to 0.08% for light drinkers.

Alcohol significantly impaired performance on some measures at all examined BACs from 0.02% to 0.10%. The magnitude of the impairment increased with increasing BAC. Differences in the magnitude of alcohol impairment between categories of age, gender, and drinking practices were small, inconsistent in direction, and did not reach statistical significance. It is possible that significant differences would have emerged if a wider range of subject characteristics and BACs had been examined. BACs over 0.10% were not tested, and the sample did not include subjects under 19 years and over 70 years, or very light and very heavy drinkers. Within those limits, no significant differences in the magnitude of alcohol impairment within the categories of age, gender, and drinking practice appeared for this diverse sample.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/pub/impaired_driving/BAC/abstract.html


And it's dumb to be wrong, and then try to make people think they're safe on the roads "with a few beers inside them". Even dumber to suggest they might drive better. Irresponsible, too. Someone has to point out that you're wrong, and should not be listened to.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:49 PM

30. Thanks for making my point.

I knew it would be in the study if I read far enough. From YOUR report: They reported that heavy drinkers were less impaired than moderate drinkers at equal BACs on several psychomotor tasks. Which is exactly what I had said. They define "heavy drinkers" as those "recruited from bars" . Keep on digging.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:55 PM

32. No - you claimed "drive as good or better with a few beers"

The report says that everyone is impaired. You are a danger to society. The report also says that, overall, there is no difference due to gender, age (part of your claim) or amount regularly drunk (the other part).

Stop lying about the effect of alcohol. If anyone is fool enough to believe you, you are putting people at risk.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:00 PM

37. You are lying about your own report.

From the report: It is possible that significant differences would have emerged if a wider range of subject characteristics and BACs had been examined The report very conveniently does not define what they mean by "impaired". Hmmmm, I wonder why?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:27 PM

43. Don't accuse me of lying

I never said anything about what people not in the test might have done. But here are your lies, apart from your false accusation:

"They reported that heavy drinkers were less impaired than moderate drinkers at equal BACs on several psychomotor tasks"

No, that was a "study by Moskowitz, Daily and Henderson (1974) supported this finding with a comparison of extremely heavy drinkers (recruited from bars) and moderate drinkers." This report defines heavy (note - not 'extremely heavy') drinkers defined "by a Quantity-Frequency-Variability scale of alcohol consumption".

"The report very conveniently does not define what they mean by "impaired""
It defines the impairment extensively. http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/pub/impaired_driving/BAC/study_method.html#method

You must stop spreading lies about "a few beers" having no effect on older, regular drinkers. Seriously, you could get someone killed. Stop it. Educate yourself.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:35 PM

46. Jayzus, Mary and Joseph, you Brits have it almost as bad as we do.

Presumably you are about to slapped with the "intolerant" label next.

Perhaps we're kindred spirits, at least in this?



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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:51 PM

49. I think we do agree on this

Irish rural roads won't be that different from English, Welsh or Scottish ones, I expect - ie narrow, unlit and twisty. And often with people walking on the road, because there's no pavement/sidewalk - the people who have sensibly not driven to the pub. No place at all for a driver who has been drinking.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:36 PM

28. Drinking all their lives, with a few beers . . . stone sober,

bodies have adapted to alcohol means they're alcoholic.

Sorry, Ireland, that's the reality; its a terrible disease but it IS a disease, and should be treated as one.

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Response to elleng (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:52 PM

31. Your are a prohibitionist.

You lost that fight in the 1920s. It is over. Now you are calling having a good time and relaxing in a bar is a "disease". Why I am not surprised.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:12 PM

41. No, I am not a prohibitionist,

I know about alcoholism from friends, I studied the disease and helped a friend recognize it and seek treatment.

Anyone interested in learning about it can do so: http://www.lakesidemilam.com/UnderTheInfluence-Guide.htm

MANY seek to maintain positions of denial; this is very common.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:36 PM

29. Do you have any proof of that statement? Is there any thing more than your opinion to back that up?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:56 PM

33. I am observant in life.

I am also in a field of business where I run across a lot people who have had an issue with alcohol and the law. As far as a study goes it would be impossible. It is illegal to drive above 0.8% BAC so doing a study above that level would be illegal.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:08 PM

40. So in a word "no" there is nothing to back up your opinion. The fact that there are

many studies showing drinking impairs mental and motor skills bears no weight in your opinion? OK.

Opinions are like a$$holes everyone has one.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:01 PM

51. No, in fact there are no studies.

It is illegal to drive above 0.08 BAC so no realist studies are possible. The motor skills studies have no relation to actual driving over familiar roads by people who have adapted to alcohol. The 1920s are calling for you.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 06:59 PM

54. There are no studies supporting your POV because it is not evidence based.

You dismiss recognized scientific studies as not "realistic" because they disprove your absurd assertion.

"people who have adapted to alcohol" are alcoholics.

Let's propose this thought experiment you get busted driving with a BAC of 0.081
and try your "adapted to alcohol" defense. Want to bet on your verdict?

Reality is calling you. Why are you defending impaired driving?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:26 PM

55. Bet on the verdict?

I am in the business. There are no judges lazier than DWI judges. They love the 0.08 standard because it means they can sit there and do nothing. They don't have to uhhhh make an actual judgement. As in doing their job. DWI courts are simply a money making machine for the cities and that is the ONLY thing they are interested in. The lack of justice in those courts I'm sure doesn't bother you.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:35 PM

56. Why are you defending Drunk Driving?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:37 PM

57. Because I got tired beating my wife.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:29 PM

44. I've already shown you the test with the driving simulator

So, no, it's not 'impossible'. You don't pay attention, do you? I hope you pay attention when driving. And I hope you never drink before you drive.

And an BAC of 0.8% would probably make someone comatose. I presume you meant 0.08%.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:59 PM

36. Wait, what?

BAC > .08 + nighttime conditions + unexpected curve or construction = someone's night just got seriously fucked up.

Come on. You know better than this. Need some coffee?

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Response to derby378 (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:02 PM

38. No, I haven't had coffee in 30 years but thanks anyway.

You are using a one size fits all definition. People are not put together that way.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:23 PM

42. I had a friend killed by a drunk driver.

You are wrong.

I'm not opposed to drinking, but I am opposed to people getting behind the wheel after drinking. I used to have a spot, in my drinking days, when i would start drinking and i was SURE my reaction time, ability to play pool and video games, etc. would get better. but the fact is that alcohol interferes with these things. Playing the game about trying to figure out where the line of acceptable inebriation is, isn't worth it... and is deeply irresponsible.

Take a cab.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:09 PM

52. If a person is really using this as justification for drinking and driving.

"Older people who have been drinking all their lives drive as good or better with a few beers than if they were stone sober. "

The government should be finding them help with their alcohol problem. Not making it easier for them to get to a bar, while at the same time a detriment to society.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:37 PM

4. I had my own version of this in college

except I used herb instead of liquor.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

6. Oh, that will go well.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:46 PM

8. Wow, this is mindbogglingly stupid.

Three beers (and we're talking UK pints = 20 oz) and I'm personally knocked flat on my ass (what can I say? I'm an economical drinker!)

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:58 PM

11. Just because you can't handle a few beers what makes you think no one can?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:24 PM

22. The insidious thing about alcohol is that it makes people think they can handle it when they can't.

I've lost track of the number of people I've seen who thought they were sober when they were completely shit-faced drunk. Alcohol makes you think you're OK when you're not.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:31 PM

25. I am familar with the concept.

But your judgement (or lack of) when you are 18 or in your early 20s is different than when you are in your 50s. The OP was referring to older people. If you think they are they same you don't know bars.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:57 PM

34. Let's try the BAC calculator

3 British pints, on an average male (165 lb), reasonably, but not overly strong beer (4.9%), over three hours, on this site: http://www.rupissed.com/ gets me an estimated BAC of 0.086, which is over the legal limit and would land you in jail for DUI where I live. And should, because when your BAC is at that level, you're too stupid to drive.

What this Irish county is doing is total madness.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:04 PM

39. You may be too stupid to drive.

You know yourself the best. Most people I know would have no problem at .08.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:38 PM

48. They think they don't have a problem at .08...

but if you run a Google Scholar search for "driver impairment BAC", you'll see a large number of scientific journal articles providing hard evidence to the contrary.

Here's an interesting one: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-004-1964-x?LI=true - it provides evidence that people frequently underestimate their levels of intoxication, leading them to think they can drive a car when they shouldn't.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:49 PM

9. What could possibly go wrong...?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:01 PM

12. I remember drinking and driving in Texas

I doubt it's still legal to crack a couple of Lonestars when driving the boring stretch of I-10 from Louisiana to Victoria, Tx

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:09 PM

13. '73 Dodge Charger

... exactly like the one in "Burn Notice". Early 70s, doing 90, doobie in one hand, Gennesee in the other, knees on the wheel, girlfriends head resting in lap. Very fortunate to be alive and never hurt anyone. Totally different outlook now.






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Response to warrprayer (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:11 PM

14. no seatbelts, no padded dashboard or safety glass, no baby seats,

glad we all survived

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:15 PM

16. yeah

in one form or another



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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:16 PM

18. Give Drunks Their Own Lane!

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:21 PM

20. Thank goodness I already biked Ireland.

Because there is no way I'd go bicycling on the lovely little roads again. The little used roads were the best.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:33 PM

26. Did they give out the Darwin Awards yet?

Because they're going to need them.

You can die in a crash at about 30 mph. Or whatever that is in km-ph.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:57 PM

35. Drunk Irishmen on tractors!

What could possibly go wrong?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:37 PM

47. Or Irishwomen. We're egalitarian here now, at least when it comes to driving. nt

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:17 PM

50. True. Both sights would be equally interesting

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:34 PM

45. No more 3am runs through the Devils Glen for me I guess

This will not end well. Years ago my uncle Frank was driving home on one of those roads, no doubt he had a few to many, he hit a bull. The animal nearly cut his car in half, poor thing. Those roads are no joke stone cold sober.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:13 PM

53. the DUI industry is just that

 

an industry. a very lucrative one.

it isn't about public safety, it's about revenue generation.

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