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Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:38 PM

What is the real reason that rethugs are anti-abortion? I don't accept that they care about the

unborn, when they deny help and assistance to the living. Why? What say you?

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Reply What is the real reason that rethugs are anti-abortion? I don't accept that they care about the (Original post)
mfcorey1 Jan 2013 OP
2pooped2pop Jan 2013 #1
LisaLynne Jan 2013 #7
caseymoz Jan 2013 #14
reformist2 Jan 2013 #132
NCTraveler Jan 2013 #2
War Horse Jan 2013 #9
appleannie1 Jan 2013 #13
hifiguy Jan 2013 #101
Raksha Jan 2013 #127
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #131
Aerows Jan 2013 #143
nykym Jan 2013 #3
jberryhill Jan 2013 #4
immoderate Jan 2013 #102
Raksha Jan 2013 #128
jberryhill Jan 2013 #134
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #133
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #5
Fix The Stupid Jan 2013 #6
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #36
Fix The Stupid Jan 2013 #48
JaneQPublic Jan 2013 #8
ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #10
Th1onein Jan 2013 #11
leftynyc Jan 2013 #15
Arugula Latte Jan 2013 #27
Th1onein Jan 2013 #31
leftynyc Jan 2013 #32
Th1onein Jan 2013 #35
cynatnite Jan 2013 #50
Th1onein Jan 2013 #60
cynatnite Jan 2013 #65
Th1onein Jan 2013 #68
cynatnite Jan 2013 #70
Th1onein Jan 2013 #71
cynatnite Jan 2013 #73
Th1onein Jan 2013 #94
Bradical79 Jan 2013 #74
Th1onein Jan 2013 #95
MissMarple Jan 2013 #115
proud2BlibKansan Jan 2013 #81
Th1onein Jan 2013 #96
Hermes Daughter Jan 2013 #126
Th1onein Jan 2013 #135
WinkyDink Jan 2013 #117
REP Jan 2013 #119
Lady Freedom Returns Jan 2013 #123
Warpy Jan 2013 #125
Zorra Jan 2013 #139
Spazito Jan 2013 #91
Th1onein Jan 2013 #97
Spazito Jan 2013 #99
Th1onein Jan 2013 #100
Spazito Jan 2013 #103
Th1onein Jan 2013 #108
Spazito Jan 2013 #111
Th1onein Jan 2013 #112
Spazito Jan 2013 #114
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #136
Spazito Jan 2013 #142
fizzgig Jan 2013 #105
Th1onein Jan 2013 #109
fizzgig Jan 2013 #104
Th1onein Jan 2013 #110
REP Jan 2013 #120
Th1onein Jan 2013 #122
cali Jan 2013 #75
EOTE Jan 2013 #88
Hermes Daughter Jan 2013 #130
EOTE Jan 2013 #144
Sheldon Cooper Jan 2013 #90
a la izquierda Jan 2013 #92
Arugula Latte Jan 2013 #45
Th1onein Jan 2013 #46
patrice Jan 2013 #80
nobodyspecial Jan 2013 #16
ck4829 Jan 2013 #12
appleannie1 Jan 2013 #17
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #18
ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #24
elfin Jan 2013 #19
1-Old-Man Jan 2013 #20
caseymoz Jan 2013 #21
dhol82 Jan 2013 #30
Mariana Jan 2013 #33
dhol82 Jan 2013 #37
caseymoz Jan 2013 #49
2naSalit Jan 2013 #78
caseymoz Jan 2013 #93
2naSalit Jan 2013 #106
caseymoz Jan 2013 #118
2naSalit Jan 2013 #121
NOLALady Jan 2013 #84
sikofit3 Jan 2013 #89
barbtries Jan 2013 #22
Freddie Jan 2013 #56
WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #23
Boomerproud Jan 2013 #107
KamaAina Jan 2013 #25
Arugula Latte Jan 2013 #26
madamesilverspurs Jan 2013 #28
Zoeisright Jan 2013 #62
libdem4life Jan 2013 #29
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #34
RobinA Jan 2013 #76
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #82
Taverner Jan 2013 #38
xxxsdesdexxx Jan 2013 #39
Still Sensible Jan 2013 #40
wishlist Jan 2013 #41
JoeyT Jan 2013 #42
0rganism Jan 2013 #43
DirkGently Jan 2013 #44
moondust Jan 2013 #47
SmileyRose Jan 2013 #51
Th1onein Jan 2013 #141
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Glassunion Jan 2013 #53
elleng Jan 2013 #54
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quaker bill Jan 2013 #57
treestar Jan 2013 #58
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #59
Zoeisright Jan 2013 #61
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Broken_Hero Jan 2013 #66
ljm2002 Jan 2013 #67
Nevernose Jan 2013 #69
randome Jan 2013 #72
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #77
Still Sensible Jan 2013 #79
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #83
rickjliberal1946sef Jan 2013 #85
Initech Jan 2013 #86
booley Jan 2013 #87
Puzzledtraveller Jan 2013 #98
demwing Jan 2013 #116
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #124
Exultant Democracy Jan 2013 #129
larwdem Jan 2013 #137
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #138
Apophis Jan 2013 #140

Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:42 PM

1. they are terrified of the white race becoming a minority

Or easier, they are afraid of the black population being able to control the elections. Gotta keep the whites producing.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:49 PM

7. I agree that this is part of it.

There were several groups (perhaps the Quiverfull movement, although I'm not sure) that were pretty much focused on that.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:56 PM

14. That's only true of some.


As many White Supremacists will say it's genocide against whites, others will talk about how abortion is genocide against African Americans, though the proportion of African Americans in the population hasn't changed since the '70s.

Though, I think, the former argument is going to gain popularity.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:06 AM

132. I think most anti-abortion types are aware that abortion is quite common across the board.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:44 PM

2. I believe most of it...

has to do with control and ownership of a womans body.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:50 PM

9. Me too

Mostly about this, IMO.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:55 PM

13. Absolutely.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:15 PM

101. Ding, ding, ding.

We have a winner.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:48 PM

127. I agree. In patriarchal cultures, which is pretty much all cultures to one degree or another,

it's a given that men or the male-dominated power structure (religious or political or both) have the "right" to control women's bodies. This self-proclaimed "right" includes the power of life and death.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:05 AM

131. It's a power trip for them, much as with a rapist or a molester. They want to dominate a

womans body ... and, they are control freaks, and additionally have a twisted sexuality grip on life. On top of that, it allows those with infectious hatred to have a rally point. They don't give a damn about the children. It's all about hatred for them and a power trip.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:02 AM

143. Almost solely about this

And I can guarantee that if abortion were made illegal, the next thing they would go for would be to make contraceptives illegal.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:44 PM

3. They need a lot of young strong able bodied men and women

to fight their wars. Otherwise know as cannon fodder!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:44 PM

4. Some people operate on the following principle


If I expend energy condemning something bad, then it makes me good.

It really doesn't matter what that "bad" thing is.

It takes an affirmative commitment to do something good. To do something good, one has to get up off one's ass and go do it, whatever it is.

It's much easier to take something, anything, defined as "bad", and work up a good lather condemning it. It almost doesn't matter what that bad thing is. I swear, we could just place a big rock somewhere in every town, call it "the bad thing", and have the townspeople come out and curse at it every week, and they'd feel just fine about having done their moral duty.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:19 PM

102. Yes. Bible thumpers (most) have latched onto "the good"

They define an arbitrary act as "good" and they are absolved from critical thought.

--imm

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:53 PM

128. You definitely have a point!

Re "I swear, we could just place a big rock somewhere in every town, call it "the bad thing", and have the townspeople come out and curse at it every week, and they'd feel just fine about having done their moral duty."

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Response to Raksha (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:08 AM

134. Cribbed from the Haj ritual...

...where hajis throw rocks at evil in the form of a stone pillar. I understand that there are multiple floors constructed around the pillar, and the pebbles are recycled from the bottom.

But, it seems cathartic. Throwing a rock at some designated evil symbol connects thought with action.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:07 AM

133. Well said!!! n/t

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:47 PM

5. Votes...

It's a coalition begun by Nixon. His southern strategy targeted specific demographics...the religious and social conservatives were happy to abandon the Democratic party after the Civil Rights Legislation of Johnson and the christians, after Roe V Wade in 1973. You can't have any true religious conviction if you'll give a standing ovation to David Vitter when he wins reelection and returns to the senate.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:48 PM

6. Easy.


The Dem's are "for" it...

Its all Kabookie theater - step right up and enjoy the show!

Do you see how "they" get people to talk about everything but what's important?

Like how you're getting screwed everyday? Your future is being stolen from you everyday by the 1% and their employees in the gov't?

These are wedge issues - nothing more, nothing less. Designed to keep the pawns talking and fighting amongst each other, to distract from the important issues facing us - the environment, the destruction of the middle class, the endless wars,the violence, etc, etc.

And it works...




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Response to Fix The Stupid (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:10 PM

36. To a man it's a "wedge" issue. To a woman it is a matter of life and death.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:02 AM

48. And that is exactly my point...



It is a life and death issue for women -hence why this issue should be, and already is settled...

It's really easy...if you do not want an abortion - do not get one! Simple eh?

It is a woman's choice. Period. Now ask yourself why in the hell we are still arguing this point?

To distract from the real issues - no more, no less.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:50 PM

8. They believe men should have dominion over women's bodies.

Or, more precisely, they feel that the ability to produce human life and the choices that come with it represent too great a power to be left to women.

So, with regard to abortion, if a man makes a woman pregnant, she ought to stay pregnant... or so they would say.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:52 PM

10. Because They are the human equivalent or manifestation

Of a social disease. Their actual rhetoric or reasoning doesn't much matter because it doesn't much make sense.

But politics being what they are, we have to assign an actual reason, right? My guess is a religious objection of sort.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:53 PM

11. I'm not a rethug, but I'm anti-abortion

I am against abortion because I think it is the taking of another human life. I can't say that that is the reason for everyone who is anti-abortion, though.

It is hard for me to believe that people would fight so hard and for so long against something that they don't truly have strong feelings about, though.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:57 PM

15. I understand being anti-abortion, but

are you pro choice?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:18 PM

27. No, she's not. She posts on conservative forums

but has been allowed to continue to spout anti-choice crap on DU.

See this thread: http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1623892

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:54 PM

31. EXCUSE ME?

That post that you refer to shows NOTHING as to my posting on conservative forums! NOTHING. For your edification, let me enumerate the times and the reasons I've posted on conservative forums:

1. Free Republic -- I posted asking them what they thought of the Office for Special Plans, which was the office that Dick Cheney headed in order to cook up intelligence to support the Iraq War. I was immediately kicked off.

2. The site that cannot be named -- I posted there when they were threatening to have pickets at my nephew's funeral. My nephew died in Iraq. Needless to say, they did NOT like the content of my posts there.

3. Unknown forums -- When my sister was dying, and we were fighting the Texas Futile Care Act, my posts from DU were copied and posted to quite a few conservative forums. But I never posted on those forums myself.

If I have EVER posted on a conservative forum, it was as antagonistic to their views.

I am against abortion; I am against war; I am against capital punishment. All for the same reason.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:57 PM

32. Understood but that didn't answer my question

Are you pro choice? Plenty of people who are anti-abortion are.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:08 PM

35. No, I am not pro-choice.

This is the about the ONLY plank that I do not agree with my liberal brothers and sisters on. The others I disagree only in terms of degrees because I am extremely left wing.

It is strange to me, the inconsistencies on both sides, regarding this issue. The Republicans say that they are "pro-life," but how can you be "pro-life" and be warmongers and pro-capital punishment?

I don't think that we will resolve this issue until there are perfect forms of birth control and education at a very young age, about birth control, AND universal access to birth control.

What bothers me most, though, is that this issue is used to divide the electorate. Until we can come together, and vote out the corporatists, there are many more policies that are taking the lives of humans than just abortion.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:14 AM

50. Do you think the government has the right to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:53 PM

60. I believe that someone has to enforce the law. And that we should outlaw abortion.

Except in certain cases, such as when it is necessary to save the life of the mother.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:30 PM

65. Forcing women to be pregnant against their will is abhorent...

Do you want them jailed, too, if they had an abortion if it was outlawed in your world?

My mother calls herself pro-life because she is against abortion, but she does not feel that the government has a place in the decision. It is up to the woman. The reason being is that she remembers the days of when women were forced to be pregnant against their will. This resulted in injuries and deaths of women who were desperate to abort the fetus themselves. It also put them in backrooms where unsafe abortions happened as well. It wasn't that long ago when women couldn't have access to birth control or had to get their husbands' permission for tubal ligation.

That's the world my mother remembers. She is very republican, christian and conservative, but this is one issue she is very firm on. She does not want to us to go back to those days.

Your stance on this issue is a direct path to those days and fortunately your opinion is a minority in this country.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:04 AM

68. I disagree with you.

We have much more access to birth control than back in your mother's day. And we do need better access, no doubt. But no woman needs permission to have a sterilization procedure nowadays. Of course, she's got to be able to afford it, and I think that it should be free to those who want it.

It was a different world back then, when your mother was of child bearing age.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:42 AM

70. Your line of thinking is a direct path back to those days...

That is the point I was making that you missed.

No one has the right to force a woman to be pregnant against her will. You are advocating for that by your view that women should not have the choice.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:30 AM

71. Once again, I disagree with you.

And I believe that you are absolutely incorrect.

If a woman has the will to have sex, then she takes the chance that she will end up carryng another human life inside of her, and she is reponsible for the well being of that life. Her rights end where the other beng's rght begin--specifically, the other being's right to life.

There is no denying that one of the end results of sexual intercourse for a woman is that she wll become pregnant, so if she engages in sexual intercourse then it shouldn't be a shock that she becomes pregnant. Except in the case of rape, no one forced her to do the act that ended in pregnancy.

You can couch it n any terms that you choose, and obviously, you are choosing incendiary terms, but the fact remains, without sex, no baby (except in the case of rape). Her "choice" begins when she chooses to have sex.



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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:55 AM

73. Outlawing abortion is a step back...forcing women to be pregnant against their will is a step back..

Birth control fails for various reasons...much of it not the fault of the woman. I spent enough years in OB/GYN that I can tell you that for a fact.

I don't use incendiary terms. I give facts based on my experience and what I have witnessed. My mother's opinion is based on her experiences.

Yes, she is responsible for what is in her body which means the choice is HERS. That means a zygote's potential to possibly become a human outside the uterus does NOT have rights that trumps her's. No one except the most extremist anti-choicers believe that pile of garbage.

It's not anyone's place to judge and most especially no one has the right to step in the middle of a PRIVATE decision between her and her doctor.

As I said...I'm very glad your extreme opinion is a minority.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:21 PM

94. "the most extremist anti-choicers....." "believe that pile of garbage" Not incendiary?

Riiiiiight! Uh huh.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:29 PM

74. your definition of a human being?

What is it and why?

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:24 PM

95. I believe that life begins at conception.

Is that what you want to know?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #95)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:22 PM

115. The discussion on ensoulment has been going on for quite some time. It is not over.

I am sure you are aware of this. And forcing anyone's belief on this matter on others through law is wrong. I do not agree that using abortion as primary birth control is appropriate or desirable. Their are many medical reasons, some temporary, a woman should not carry a child. If birth control fails, as it can, that is very difficult. Legislators can regulate abortion, but choice has to stay.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:30 PM

81. But you would force rape victims to carry their fetus to term?

Is that what you're saying? I'll use one of Dr. Tiller's patients as an example. She was 9. She didn't know she was pregnant until she began having life threatening consequences in her second trimester. Her rapist was arrested and her family took her to Dr. Tiller for a late term abortion.

Are you saying this 9 year old should have been forced to give birth - which could have killed her?? Because if we outlaw abortion, that's what her outcome would have been.

Do you believe 9 year olds should carry a pregnancy to term and deliver the baby?

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:28 PM

96. Of course she shouldn't have carried it to term. And the fact that you would ask that means

that you didn't bother to read my posts on this topic. If the mother's life is at risk, then she should be provided an abortion if she wants one.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #96)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:46 PM

126. You are taking...

a very bold position and I applaud your courage. Also, you should not have had to defend your posting patterns but you did that very well. I see you as surrounded by wolves, snarling because you hold this one belief...

Stay strong!

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Response to Hermes Daughter (Reply #126)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:11 AM

135. Thank you, Hermes Daughter

It confounds me that the Democratic Party, in most things, is a party that values life, and yet, on this one issue, it does not. It is an inconsistency that I do not understand.

I am a lifelong liberal, and a lifelong Democrat. I raise money for my party, and I raise votes for it, as well. I joined the IWW in college and remain a loyal member. I am also agnostic, bordering on atheist. I just disagree, and for what I consider good reasons, on this one issue, with the Democratic platform.

I think that our country is in danger of being taken over by corporatists, and that we must come together, as a people, to take it back. This issue is one that divides us and will continue to do so unless we can begin to talk to each other about it in a rational manner. I have to say, I've not seen much rationality here, when it comes to abortion.

I believe that we can do better--after all, we are Democrats.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:46 PM

117. The Supreme Court has ruled on this, so your personal declarations are irrelevant.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:27 PM

119. So?

For the sake of argument, lets accept your flawed logic. And: so? She can withdraw consent. No one has the right to use another's body for anything, not even to save their own life.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:37 PM

123. To quote redqueen in another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2259015


"These are my views:
Abortion on demand.
No explanation, no apology."



To quote myself from same thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2266857

Those are my beliefs.
My Body, My Choice.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:42 PM

125. EEEEK!!!!!! Who let YOU in?

How many times have you jumped into bed with someone and thought "I HOPE THIS MAKES A BABY! I CAN AFFORD CHILD SUPPORT!"

My guess is damned few times.

It's exactly the same for women. Birth control isn't 100%, men often whine and refuse to wear condoms as an extra layer of protection, and not all sex is 100% voluntary. Much is coerced by threats of abandonment, for instance.

Shame on you for entertaining the loathsome thought that a woman is stripped of all her civil rights at the moment of conception.


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Response to Th1onein (Reply #71)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:23 AM

139. Sex is fun. People like sex. Mistakes are made. We have the natural right of autonomy over

what goes on in our own bodies.

End of story.

Try getting over your patriarchal RW authoritarian religious control trip.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:47 PM

91. Your position to outlaw abortion would result in the death of women, it would not 'save their life'

By outlawing abortion, you would NOT stop it, you would be sending poor women back to the days of dying in back alleys, the use of hangers out of desperation, etc. Women of means will continue to have access, women without means will die. Not exactly a Christian position, imo, quite the opposite actually.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:37 PM

97. Don't you feel that there is something else in this picture?

Why should a woman in one of the richest nations in the world have to worry about getting rid of a child because of poverty?

Do you really think that most women, if given the best of possible circumstances, in terms of raising a child, would want to abort that child? I don't. I think that these are heartbreaking decisions for women to make, and that, given better alternatives, they would not make the decision for abortion.

I support life. We spend our money killing other nations' children; and letting our own die in the womb because our own people can't afford to raise a child. We glorify the military, which is nothing more than a killing machine; we fill our death rows with both the innocent and the guilty, but the majority is there because of poverty, and our air and water is filled with toxins. We are sick, and abortion is just a part of that sickness.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:43 PM

99. If there were no poverty, the world was full of unicorns and rainbows...

you might have a point but reality says the world is NOT the way you want to see it. Your focus would be better spent, imo, in trying to create the world you want, the one with no poverty, no rape, no failure of birth control protections, riding the world of militarism instead of pursuing the cause of depriving women of their right to choose, their right to privacy.

If abortion were to be made illegal, what legal penalty should be exercised on the woman who chose to break that law? Prison? Fine? Removal of any children they may have? What would be the 'appropriate' penalty for them?

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Response to Spazito (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:09 PM

100. My focus IS SPENT on trying to creat the world that I want.

I don't go out and block people from abortion clinics. I don't rally round the troops. But I'm against abortion. And war. And capital punishment. All for the same reason--because they are not pro-life.

I don't know what the penalty should be, but I do know that we should make it EASY and a POSITIVE thing to have a child that is not planned. That is pro-life.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #100)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:22 PM

103. "I don't know what the penalty should be..."

Well, seeing as you advocate vociferously for abortions to be made illegal, shouldn't you also be aware of what penalties should ensue against a woman who would violate the law you want so badly?

In not having considered the penalties, not caring what the possible penalties would or could be while advocating vociferously for such a ban is an abdication of your own responsibilities in forwarding your want to ban abortions, imo. It is saying, in effect, you don't care what happens to the women who break this law you want so badly, they do not enter into your consciousness at all and that is quite telling to me.

"I don't know what the penalty should be, but I do know that we should make it EASY and a POSITIVE thing to have a child that is not planned. That is pro-life."

Working to make it easy and a positive thing to have a child that is not planned is a laudable pursuit, working to take rights away from others is the antithesis of laudable.

You have the right to choose not to have an abortion, you have NO right to make that choice, by force, for others.




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Response to Spazito (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:43 PM

108. You have a right to your opinion, even if it is factually wrong.

You look at abortion as a right. I look it as taking away the right to life.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:51 PM

111. You have a right to do with your body what you will...

I have the right to do with mine what I will. That is a FACT. You have the right to advocate to take away my rights, you DO NOT have the right to force me or others to enact your will. That is a FACT.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:09 PM

112. You do understand that to someone who is pro-life, the child's right to life trumps your right to

abort it? You understand that?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:19 PM

114. Actually, it does not trump my right at all...

the law says it doesn't and all your wishing and hoping, praying and believing that a world of unicorns and rainbows will arise when the rights of women to have control of their bodies is taken away. Law or no law, abortions will happen and it is apparent you care not a whit what happens to either the women or the unwanted child if you were to get your wish.

If you get your wish and abortion is made illegal, how many of the resultant unwanted children are you prepared to adopt and take on their responsibility or does your responsibility end once their birth has been forced? How many funerals for the women who die from back alley abortions are you prepared to pay for as a consequence of getting your wish? 1, 10 or none? I'm betting none is the answer for both my questions.

How easy is it for you to take away the rights of others and then simply walk away from the aftermath? It seems to me the answer to this question would be....very easy.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #111)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:13 AM

136. Like going to a bar that allows smoking vs one that does not?

I have been pro-choice here on principle on many things, but people always seem to get all anti-choice for other people and their bodies quickly when it is something they don't like.

Funny how that works around this place.

Your body, your choice, but ONLY for abortion.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #136)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:47 AM

142. Huh?

I have NOT made one post about denying anyone their right to smoke, not one. I find it rather bizarre you responded to my post to insert smoking into this so I will merely repeat what I said:

Your body, your choice.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #100)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:27 PM

105. but you still want to force a woman to have a child she does not want

nothing can be done to make an unplanned pregnancy easy or positive for me.

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Response to fizzgig (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:45 PM

109. Yes. I do. Because I think that the child that she is carrying has a right to life.

Period.

You do not view that child as a human being. I do. That's the difference.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:26 PM

104. i would have an abortion no matter of my financial situation

my health and wellbeing would be compromised by pregnancy. i've taken great steps to avoid pregnancy short of sterilization, but sometimes shit just happens. besides, it's none of your damn business.

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Response to fizzgig (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:48 PM

110. You know, if you want to get inflammatory, it solves nothing.

We disagree about when life begins. That doesn't make you a bad person, or me a bad person.

I think that, if a pregnancy is so dangerous to you, you should probably get sterilized. And, if you can't, or won't, then I believe that, if you get pregnant, as long as it doesn't put your life at risk, you should carry that child to terms. And, I believe that the laws should reflect that.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:29 PM

120. You really think it comes down to just MONEY???

How despicable. Really, that's just vile.

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Response to REP (Reply #120)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:07 AM

122. Dang! I thought I put you on ignore a long time ago, REP. Let me go ahead and get that done. nt

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:31 PM

75. sorry, but an anti-choicer will never be my "sister". NEVER.

I think it's sick.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:11 PM

88. If you do not support a woman's right to choose, you are not left wing.

Not in the least. One cannot be a democrat, or even slightly to the left if one doesn't believe in owning one's own body.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #88)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:02 AM

130. <rolls eyes>

One cannot be a democrat, or even slightly to the left if one doesn't believe in owning one's own body.


This is the kind of "absolutist" thinking that defines conservatives. It's the left-brain, black-white, right-wrong, no in-between thinking that is the root of the Right's unrepentant obsession with abortion.

Liberals see shades of things, options, variations. You don't so you can't be a liberal. You're just as mired in darkness as the far right crazies.

Stop and think! And while you're at it, try 'feeling' too. Now go ahead and report me, Cali, like you've done before.

But try a little compassion, both of you!

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Response to Hermes Daughter (Reply #130)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:16 AM

144. My name is not Cali, but I stand by what I say.

How else can we redefine the Democratic party? Is it OK for Democrats to support regressive taxation? Perhaps now the empoverished can pay 40% on their taxes and the wealthy can pay zero, you know, to give the poor people more incentive to work. Is it OK for Democrats to support corporate personhood? Or perhaps be anti-civil rights and attack same-sex marriage? These are all antithetical to what democrats stand for. You can insist that democrats can be absolutely anything so long as the name accompanies them, but I think that's absolute bullshit.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:37 PM

90. You are not my 'sister' and

your views are repulsive.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:14 PM

92. Oy vey.

Your disrespect for the rights of your "sisters" make me want to

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:27 PM

45. Oh yeah? Here are your buddies on the conservativecave.com talking about your anti-choice posts:

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=80013.0

And here you are posting yourself on that very same site:

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=31661.0

We've got your number.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:38 AM

46. Did you actually READ the posts that you are referring to?

"My buddies"? Are you joking? Those sure don't sound like "buddies" to me! Hahaha!

Really, Argula Latte, you've got to do better than that!

You know, I voted for Obama, got people registered so that they could vote for Obama, donated money to Obama and other liberals' campaigns, worked really hard for liberal causes. And you take one issue that I disagree with you on and try to label me as a rightwinger. Amazing, Argula Latte. Shame, shame!

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:10 PM

80. +++1

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:58 PM

16. If a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb

which is the case with most abortions, how is that a human life? It is potential for human life.

I do hope you are consistent and as actively oppose the death penalty and war as well.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:54 PM

12. Control of a woman's body and cheap labor

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:59 PM

17. It would not matter if it was the Devil

if he said he was against abortion my sister and b-i-l would vote for him and their pastor would sing his praises too.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:00 PM

18. Each birth could be the Second Coming

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

24. Heh!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:02 PM

19. They might run out of cannon fodder for their wars. Eom

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:03 PM

20. To get the Religious Right's vote

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:04 PM

21. Two reasons.

Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

The first is the usually unconscious motive of controlling women.

The second is the more conscious one: the God in the Bible judges and punishes nations. If a woman has an illegal abortion, the sin against God is restricted to her, the abortionist, and perhaps the guy who impregnated her.

If, however, the country makes abortion legal, then the country is sinning. That is why they won't accept that it's a private issue. To them, it's public, and they're doing a public service by keeping God from smiting the USA.

All of this hysterical embrace of the fetus is fanaticism to show God that they're not among the sinners. Punish the rest of the USA, not me.

Those are the common threads that, I think, drive the anti-choice movement.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:25 PM

30. what a great point


had never considered that the 'anti' factions would think that they would be among the sinners in a global fashion.

deserves some thought.

intriguing how one can convolute reality.

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Response to dhol82 (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:58 PM

33. Remember when Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell

got in front of teevee cameras and said, right after 9/11, that God let it happen because the country has all these homosexuals and atheists, and because children aren't made to pray in public school, and because abortion is legal? That was an example of two Christian leaders, who had very high exposure and influence in this country, expressing that same idea. An awful lot of Christians do believe exactly that way.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:59 PM

37. guess it never occurred to me


that all their strange ideas meant that they felt that we, as a nation, were doomed.

how sad to need to believe that.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:54 AM

49. Yes, and they look for the judgment of God.


Problem is, of course, any disaster can be retroactively defined as such a judgment.

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Response to dhol82 (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:58 PM

78. In addition to all of that...

Women are just potentially evil in nature because... well men want to have sex with them and can barely control themselves so that makes women evil and the punishment, of course, is that they should suffer childbirth and the commitment to having to raise that child no matter the consequences because, well, she had sex... even if she was raped.

That's how the zealots in my family framed the whole convoluted argument. And where I come from, when I was young, if you were raped, it was definitely your fault, suffer the consequences and shut up. Which also meant that you would spend the rest of your life like Hester in The Scarlet Letter.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:48 PM

93. You're right, except that depends on the sect.

The Catholic Church, for example, will swear up and down that their anti-choice goal has nothing to do with punishing women. It's all about respect for life, and any hardship enacting their policy brings upon women is unfortunate, but is nothing compared to the greater evil of abortion.

However, the unconscious motivation-- that is, the undercurrent-- is still misogyny. They will will deny it, though.

What I wrote above, about an individual sin as opposed to the nation being in sin, that's a reason every anti-choice sect of Christianity will agree on, though they won't actually say it's because of fear of God's wrath. That would be selfish and obeying God only from fear, and God sees right through that ploy.

No, to avoid God's wrath you have avoid it for unselfish reasons, hence the respect for the sacredness of life, and the hysterical love of Operation Rescue and others for the fetus. Warn the sinner of God's wrath, but don't admit you fear it yourself, because God is Love.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:37 PM

106. Ohhhh, that's way more advanced than what

my catholic mother was imparting to us. Sex was for making babies, period. And the other religions that my immediate family (Grandparents, parents and aunts/uncles who branched out to more zealous sects) were preaching. I guess I came up in the "still clinging to Victorian Age" New England style zealotry, almost didn't matter what sect you were a member of as long as you had a church to belong to... then they were fighting about who was the real religion of god...

In the New England I grew up in, 50s and 60s; women were evil, what happened to them because they were satisfactorily subservient was entirely their fault, they had to pay the price of being born female and were basically seen as a possession rather than a human being entitled to equal rights. And heaven forbid you should consider having a career rather than hatching out kids by the time you were 20, and you'd better be married for at least a year prior to that or there was a lot of suspicion about when you got pregnant. And on top of that, you were questionable marriageable if that didn't happen by the time you were 19. And children were possessions, whatever their parents chose to do to/with them was the parents' business short of starving them or causing their death. In oter words, unless you were a white male back then you were just SOL.



That's the way it was then in that part of the country, when the Civil Rights Act came about, it got really ugly, and when the ERA movement was a topic, it got really ugly for women and girls... that lasted a really long time... guess that's still an issue in many places.


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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:32 PM

118. The Catholic Church "clarified" their position since.


Though the church-goers are allowed to stay ignorant of their own church's dogma. The RCC doesn't care as long as nobody challenges it and they get Sunday donations.

And the horror you describe from your childhood is pretty much what conservatives want to establish, which is why they have that "gender gap" problem.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:24 PM

121. Yup, I got the

part about what the zealots want to do, basically erase most of the progress of the whole twentieth century. I've been paying attention since the early 60s. After Clinton, it's all been a slimy slope in the wrong direction. I just haven't been paying much attention to the catholics since I wasn't raised that way, but my mom was and she used what she knew to the best of her knowledge, I have forgiven her, she really didn't know better given the times she was living in. In her late 80s now, she gets it.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:45 PM

84. Interesting.

They didn't concern themselves with God's punishment of the Nation when they were decimating the Natives of this country. They surely didn't consider God's punishment for using the forced free labor of enslaved Africans. The treatment of the Natives and the Africans was public also.

They seem to pick and choose the punishments of their God.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:33 PM

89. Bingo

+10000!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:07 PM

22. they don't believe

in women's liberation. gotta keep those of the weaker sex barefoot and pregnant dontcha know.

or, as i would have said in the 1970's, they're pigs. male chauvinist pigs.

also they are pandering to the religious right, many of whom do really drive themselves to distraction agonizing over the plight of the poor unborn.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:38 AM

56. ^^^this^^^

It's about controlling women. Making sure she is dependent and subservient to men, as (their) Bible says. This is why these same folks oppose contraception as well, despite the fact that any logical person could see that contraception prevents abortion.
A woman who is constantly pregnant and/or caring for young children cannot get an education or keep a good job and is forever dependent on her Lord and Master husband. That's why.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:07 PM

23. Fundraising

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 06:41 PM

107. I don't believe for a nanosecond that the "pro-life" movement wants Roe V Wade

overturned. It's their cash cow and the only issue that unites them. If SCOTUS did overturn, there would be a huge backlash and the law of unintended consequences would rule.

Of course, the core of the idealogy is power over women.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

25. Oppression of women

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:12 PM

26. Control of the wimmenfolk. It's as simple as that.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:23 PM

28. Disenfranchisement of half the population.

At least that's what a couple of 'eggers' admitted to. They were promoting, among other things, giving full rights to fertilized eggs; when I suggested that would mean taking rights away from the egg's "host", he agreed but stated it would only be temporary until the baby was born. He also wanted to 'purify' the Constitution by going back to the original without the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments. Seeing a pattern, I asked his wife if she would really be okay with giving up her right to vote or own property, and she dutifully nodded yes but reasserted the 'temporary' nature of that status. He was looking quite smug by this time, so I point-blank asked if the intent was to take rights from women. He just smiled, she continued with her bobbleheaded stepfordness. I think of them every time I see/hear Republicans lecturing about abortion.


-

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:01 PM

62. 'Eggers'!!

I love it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:24 PM

29. The birth of Patriarchy was the discovery of the co-occurrence of copulation

and the monthly cycle of a woman's body and new life/birth. Until then, the mystery of birth and life supported Matriarchy as the proof of motherhood was undeniable.

Somewhere there is a meaningful conjoining of social, economical, political and religious celebration of the equally important dyads of shared rights and responsibilities.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:07 PM

34. Sluts need to be punished with the burden of a child they are unable to care for.

Ideally, both the slut and her spawn ultimately starve on the street. That'll teach 'em.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:40 PM

76. The Above

To wingers, most women who have abortions are unmarried. These sluts are obviously having sex for the fun of it, if they don't want the ensuing child. Therefore, they need to be punished by giving birth to the results of their sin.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:38 PM

82. Normally these freaks would just stone the slut to death, but now there are laws

against that sort of thing.

If the christofascists get their way, stoning will be legal once again and they won't have to spend forever making sluts miserable.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:59 PM

38. Simple: punish women for enjoying sex

 

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:01 PM

39. Right. We are pro-choice in the sense that we believe that it's the individual woman's

right to choose and then we're pro-life throughout life. The anti-abortion wackos are pro-fetus and could give a damn about what happens after the birth.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:03 PM

40. They make obscene amounts of money for their campaigns. n/t

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:14 PM

41. Wedge issue to insure votes/money from religious fundamentalists

Repub party made a deliberate cynical decision to lock in support from anti-abortion church members by making pro-life a pivotal political stance for their party. Without that wedge issue along with gay rights to lock in fundamentalists who are afraid of God's wrath, the Repub party wouldn't stand a chance since so many religions don't support the Repub's uncharitable greedy 'everyone on their own philosophy.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:53 PM

42. It's about punishing women for having sex.

Or in the broader sense, about punishing women for being uppity enough to think they deserve any kind of pleasure other than what comes from serving their husband. It's why they're anti-abortion and anti-birth control, even though birth control is the best way to prevent abortions.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:00 PM

43. many reasons; it's very much overdetermined.

Among them:
- Ensure a cheap labor pool in coming generations via increased population
- Ensure a cheap labor pool in the current generation via promoting poverty (esp. in minority populations)
- Ensnare poor and middle-class social conservatives in the Republican party, where they'll vote against their own economic interests

And that's not even touching on the reasoning of the True Believers themselves.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:04 PM

44. Sex is bad. Women must pay.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:48 AM

47. Control of women + self-serving faux morality.

"Look how moral we are! We're the good guys!"

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:17 AM

51. sparkly things

while we fight over the sparklies they are running off with the silver.

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Response to SmileyRose (Reply #51)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:49 AM

141. ABSOLUTELY!

And we fall for it, and vilify each other over the issue constantly.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:20 AM

52. For many of them, especially the women....it is about the fetus...

Their arguments begin to fail when you press them about birth control, forcing women to be pregnant against their will, and if women should be jailed for having an abortion.

I do believe that the repuke party and repuke politicians don't give a shit. It's a great money maker for them.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:24 AM

53. There is no money in it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 02:35 AM

54. Misconceptions

' Republican strategists throughout the 1970s and well into ’80s carefully cultivated the abortion issue in the service of party realignment, with the aim of peeling away urban ethnic Catholic voters from their traditional home in the Democratic Party. It was a Northern version of the successful “Southern strategy,” one that took longer to achieve – 20 years, by some measures – but that eventually resulted in today’s upside-down world where the once pro-choice Republican majority has disappeared and the Democratic base embraces abortion rights.'

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/misconceptions/?hp

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Response to elleng (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:17 PM

113. apt title

good article...

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 03:43 AM

55. Basically, they're weenie men who fear women

and what better way to keep women under their iron rule than to eliminate contraception and abortion? Without those, every working woman and college student under 40 would return to their proper duties as unpaid domestic servants!

Antiabortion women range from doormats who think a woman is only good as a brood mare to sentimental saps who conflate an embryo into a smiling three month old baby to religious nuts who believe they'll go to hell if they don't repeat the church's bullshit.

They're all stupidly, tragically wrong and the only thing that would happen if they passed their laws would be a large number of maimed and dead young women because the only abortions they will ever stop are the safe ones.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:52 AM

57. Fewer white babies

I am sure it is not true for all, but a significant portion combine an objection to abortion with an objection to programs that they see as feeding brown babies. Do the math.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:41 AM

58. They don't like women having that much power or freedom

They want a 1950s TV-world, to take them back to simpler times when they were happier. They believe abortion, birth control, feminism and the sexual revolution ruined that.

They especially don't like that the choice is up to the woman - if it were up to the father of the fetus, they'd be fine with it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 10:18 AM

59. Natalism. They consider high birth rates a good thing.

In their minds low birth rates are a symptom of national and racial decline.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 05:00 PM

61. Hatred of women, obsessive need for control,

and playing to the stupidity and gullibility of people who are voting against their own best interests.

Repukes don't give a flying fuck about the unborn, because they cut funding for prenatal research and prenatal care.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:47 PM

63. More young bodies for the War Machine

Or exploitable labor.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 08:59 PM

64. I've always wondered the same thing...so I'm of no help. It confounds me?

You'd think they would be happy to get of all those babies that would probably end up on welfare and cost the state money. Actually they just use it as a wedge issue.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:34 PM

66. I think that Rwers

are anti-abortion because their church/morality says so. As for RW politicians I don't think they give two shit fucks, but they push for anti-abortion laws to appease their voting base.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:56 PM

67. Patriarchy...

...that's the long and the short of it.

We trace our lineage (from a societal point of view) through the male side. Now as we all know, before DNA testing, it was somewhat difficult to prove a baby's actual parentage on the male side; therefore, it was necessary for men to control their women to ensure it was their own seed that was propagated.

Thus the social structures of marriage, etc. were set up in such a way that women were essentially chattel, owned by their menfolk. And social structures change slowly. The roots run deep and the associated habits, thoughts and behaviors are very ingrained.

We actually made some great progress for awhile there, including legalizing abortion. Then along came the politicians who saw another way to capitalize using this as a social wedge issue, and they went after it with a vengeance. This fanned the flames among the religious right who proceeded to make it their own issue, allowing them to see themselves as pious moral crusaders who have decent values and care about innocent life.

For these sorts, a fetus is a bouncing baby and an already-living person is not innocent and a pregnant woman is nothing more than a vessel / vassal.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:18 AM

69. You're looking for logic where there is none

These are people that think Obama is a Kenyan Marxist; that AK-47s are literally a gift from God; that the more melanin in one's skin the more likely one is to be inferior; that the Earth is only 6,000 years old; that scientists are out to get us or trick us into believing something unholy, like global warming; that endless war is a good and noble thing; that gays are inherently wicked; that animal cruelty laws are taking their freedoms away; that Fox News tells the truth and every per source of news, except maybe WND and Alex Jones, is lying to them; that Glen Beck represents mainstream America; that some species of animals deserve to be extinct; ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

The real reason is that the crazy ones have brainwashed the non-crazies. There's no middle ground with these fools because we're already on the middle ground, and you might as well be asking why there's a leprechaun in your short pocket, because there is no actual logic coming from their side. Fear and anger and greed, yes, but you'll never find anything that does more than resemble logic.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:35 AM

72. I think you hit it on the nose, Nevernose.

Logic does not have much sway over the GOP's 'beliefs'.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:47 PM

77. It's an appeal to the Christian Right and an attempt to assert control over women

In other words, it's white men clinging desperately to the power that they've had for centuries.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:07 PM

79. Money

while there are many people who simply think abortion is wrong, most often a fundamental religious viewpoint continually reinforced by church leaders, after Roe v Wade the right wing politicians quickly exploited it into a fund-raising goldmine. There are probably few issues in U.S history that have proven to be as consistent a source of campaign contributions to a political party.

In the past decade or so, the same right wing has exploited the gay rights issue both monetarily and electorally. But that issue is beginning to wane somewhat in its ability to be a reliable wedge issue as progress and general acceptance of the rights of LGBT marches on. Oh, that issue is still there on a list of what the RW considers "moral imperatives," soon to be joined by the outrage from the right over women in combat. But IMO anti-abortion money remains the consistent cash cow for right wing politicians.

Probably the only other group of primary (or single) issue voters that the right can count on to be as reliable in their ongoing financial support are the NRA-led gun rights folks that believe that any attempt to put any limits on guns or ammunition is the first step toward the government confiscating all of their weapons.

It's a coalition of hot button issues that the right has been, and will continue, to exploit because they raise so much money. And the PTB, that is the big money bankster, Wall Street, corporatists that basically don't really give a shit about these hot button issues, are just fine with the arrangement. They get all this great GOP funding from these folks and this group of issues distract the zealots from seeing how the big money is fleecing them on everything else!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:41 PM

83. To fool christians into voting for them

They want to lure single issue voters. Of course those voters turn out to be the likes of Michelle Bachmann and Louis Gohmert, but the GOP will take whatever they can get.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:48 PM

85. I'm not sure if the GOP is genuinely anti abortion

 

I think they express such views to win the votes of the rabid religious nuts. Without their anti-women views, the GOP would lose a lot of votes from such people.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:57 PM

86. It's not about abortion, it's about absolute power and control.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:00 PM

87. It's a get out of jail card

I have had anti choice cons say this and one explicitly stated abortion was the above

(he later tried to walk it back when he realized the reaction from everyone else)

This is reinforced by the Colorado legislator that once said he wanted pregnant women with aids to come to term and their kids to have HIV so they would learn to not have premarrital sex like their mom did.

"....quite frankly. I'm not convinced that part of the role of government should be to protect individuals from the negative consequences of their actions."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schultheis

In short, getting pregnant or an STD is seen as the natural consequence of having done something you shouldn't have (never mind the details. for the purposes of this, those facts don't don't matter)

Pregnancy is a punishment. Therefore abortion (and taking it even further, contraception) is a way to avoid punishment for wrongful action.

It's assumed the woman must have done something wrong or else she would never have been in that situation to begin with. Again details about the individual circumstance don't matter and indeed only reinforces their meme that even if that one case was "worthy", there are still plenty who are not and therefore it's ok to limit abortion for those people. And yes, even if that means the innocent suffer as well.

Nor is abortion the only issue where this idea holds sway. It also influences thier ideas about welfare. Ever notice how conservatives will often say they have no problem with charity for the poor (which is how they define social programs) but only for the worthy... and then proceed to make the bar so high that no one can ever beconsidered worthy?

And Jesse helm's statement about stopping AIDS by having gay people stop having gay sex.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 05:40 PM

98. Not all opposed to abortion per se are republicans

But I understand what you mean, my opinion is both side misuse the issue particularly as a wedge issue when you get to talking to people one on one you find many share a wide spectrum of views on it. I lament that it is even a political issue at all but that fact that it is means it will always be now. I think choice, and this is my opinion, would have been better served at the state level just like gay marriage because it gains support gradually and regionally. I always preferred the incremental approach to cultural change. IMO.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:26 PM

116. Sanctimoniousness and domination

"we're morally superior to you baby killers, so we should be in charge."

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:49 PM

124. Misogyny.

George Carlin said it best...

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 11:56 PM

129. They have a stone age morality that tells them man is a fallen and sinful creature.

Everything else derives from the pathology they call a religion. If people are fallen dirty and sinful then thing we enjoy like sex must be shameful and evil too.

They consider having a baby as a punishment for "bad girls" who choose to enjoy sex outside of a marriage.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:33 AM

137. cheap labor

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:45 AM

138. some truly believe that a fetus is a person and abortion is murder.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:25 AM

140. I believe it's so they can control women.

 

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