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Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:34 PM

NOTICE: I do not pray!

But, I don't mind if you do.

I don't mind if the President does, either.

I'm an atheist, so I don't pray. Other people have some sort of religious beliefs. Many of them do pray.

174 replies, 7380 views

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Arrow 174 replies Author Time Post
Reply NOTICE: I do not pray! (Original post)
MineralMan Jan 2013 OP
onehandle Jan 2013 #1
MineralMan Jan 2013 #2
onehandle Jan 2013 #8
MineralMan Jan 2013 #42
tama Jan 2013 #167
thesquanderer Jan 2013 #137
quinnox Jan 2013 #3
MineralMan Jan 2013 #5
JoeBlowToo Jan 2013 #37
MineralMan Jan 2013 #44
JoeBlowToo Jan 2013 #165
intheflow Jan 2013 #169
sadbear Jan 2013 #4
randome Jan 2013 #7
FreeState Jan 2013 #23
randome Jan 2013 #58
sadbear Jan 2013 #60
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #70
Walk away Jan 2013 #112
gtar100 Jan 2013 #120
randome Jan 2013 #126
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #148
tama Jan 2013 #168
amuse bouche Jan 2013 #73
vlyons Jan 2013 #98
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #122
MineralMan Jan 2013 #9
sadbear Jan 2013 #14
MineralMan Jan 2013 #29
msanthrope Jan 2013 #12
sadbear Jan 2013 #16
msanthrope Jan 2013 #36
MineralMan Jan 2013 #39
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #78
sadbear Jan 2013 #83
gateley Jan 2013 #136
phleshdef Jan 2013 #18
sadbear Jan 2013 #20
phleshdef Jan 2013 #35
Chef Eric Jan 2013 #119
phleshdef Jan 2013 #121
Chef Eric Jan 2013 #149
phleshdef Jan 2013 #158
jeff47 Jan 2013 #123
phleshdef Jan 2013 #124
jeff47 Jan 2013 #128
phleshdef Jan 2013 #133
jeff47 Jan 2013 #143
phleshdef Jan 2013 #164
Hekate Jan 2013 #32
RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #129
sadbear Jan 2013 #132
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #6
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #10
lunatica Jan 2013 #15
MineralMan Jan 2013 #17
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #41
MineralMan Jan 2013 #48
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #69
MineralMan Jan 2013 #76
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #89
MineralMan Jan 2013 #93
guardian Jan 2013 #110
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #115
Mad_Dem_X Jan 2013 #127
jeff47 Jan 2013 #130
JI7 Jan 2013 #151
jeff47 Jan 2013 #157
JI7 Jan 2013 #159
jeff47 Jan 2013 #161
JI7 Jan 2013 #163
BobbyBoring Jan 2013 #138
phleshdef Jan 2013 #40
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #96
msanthrope Jan 2013 #11
MineralMan Jan 2013 #34
msanthrope Jan 2013 #45
marginlized Jan 2013 #61
MineralMan Jan 2013 #62
Hekate Jan 2013 #38
msanthrope Jan 2013 #50
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #13
MineralMan Jan 2013 #21
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #31
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #91
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #106
fadedrose Jan 2013 #19
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #92
Viva_La_Revolution Jan 2013 #170
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #171
fadedrose Jan 2013 #172
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #173
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #22
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #24
soft_eyes Jan 2013 #25
sadbear Jan 2013 #28
Rex Jan 2013 #66
onehandle Jan 2013 #47
fadedrose Jan 2013 #49
MineralMan Jan 2013 #51
fadedrose Jan 2013 #54
MineralMan Jan 2013 #56
Tikki Jan 2013 #26
snooper2 Jan 2013 #27
ProSense Jan 2013 #52
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #71
ProSense Jan 2013 #74
Tikki Jan 2013 #72
ProSense Jan 2013 #80
Tikki Jan 2013 #87
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #97
MadHound Jan 2013 #30
quinnox Jan 2013 #33
MineralMan Jan 2013 #53
MadHound Jan 2013 #59
MineralMan Jan 2013 #67
MadHound Jan 2013 #68
MineralMan Jan 2013 #79
randome Jan 2013 #43
ProSense Jan 2013 #46
MineralMan Jan 2013 #55
Rex Jan 2013 #57
MineralMan Jan 2013 #64
Rex Jan 2013 #65
jeff47 Jan 2013 #125
Rex Jan 2013 #134
MineralMan Jan 2013 #140
jeff47 Jan 2013 #144
MineralMan Jan 2013 #146
jeff47 Jan 2013 #155
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #101
Rex Jan 2013 #111
MineralMan Jan 2013 #63
bvar22 Jan 2013 #75
MineralMan Jan 2013 #81
FreeState Jan 2013 #90
MineralMan Jan 2013 #99
bvar22 Jan 2013 #174
sadbear Jan 2013 #95
MineralMan Jan 2013 #107
sadbear Jan 2013 #116
MineralMan Jan 2013 #141
ProSense Jan 2013 #88
MineralMan Jan 2013 #108
onenote Jan 2013 #152
hrmjustin Jan 2013 #77
MineralMan Jan 2013 #82
datasuspect Jan 2013 #84
MineralMan Jan 2013 #85
DinahMoeHum Jan 2013 #86
MineralMan Jan 2013 #103
NCTraveler Jan 2013 #94
MineralMan Jan 2013 #100
wryter2000 Jan 2013 #102
corneliamcgillicutty Jan 2013 #104
MineralMan Jan 2013 #114
judesedit Jan 2013 #105
ErikJ Jan 2013 #113
MineralMan Jan 2013 #117
MineralMan Jan 2013 #145
appleannie1 Jan 2013 #109
MineralMan Jan 2013 #118
limpyhobbler Jan 2013 #131
MineralMan Jan 2013 #147
loyalsister Jan 2013 #135
Silent3 Jan 2013 #139
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #142
War Horse Jan 2013 #150
libodem Jan 2013 #153
MineralMan Jan 2013 #154
libodem Jan 2013 #160
BigDemVoter Jan 2013 #156
madokie Jan 2013 #162
Laochtine Jan 2013 #166

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:35 PM

1. I deny the existence of your agenda. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:36 PM

2. Such is your right.

Like prayer, it has no effect on me, so I'll simply ignore it.

That's easy.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:40 PM

8. You've convinced me.

I will baptize our little dog tonight.

Wait... d-o-g... g-o-d...

That explains why I feel compelled to pick up his poop with little plastic bags.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:55 PM

42. You are your dog's loyal servant.

I, too, take up my dog's blessings in a plastic bag, wherever and whenever he bestows them. I then place it in the holy receptacle alongside my garage, where it will be collected by the holy truck each Monday. It is a ritual I consider to be my responsibility to him, for he is the Dude.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #42)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:41 AM

167. In infinite gratitude to Mother Nature

 

that has given a dog as member of our family, who takes me out for walk and fresh air, when possible I deliver his poop blessings directly back in the woods and holy recycling of organic matter, also to consume less plastic backs made of fossil fuels. There is risk that should a fellow human being walking in the woods step aside from the Path he might step on dog poop, but in the holy calculus of fuzzy whole I consider that risk lesser evil than the benefits.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:14 PM

137. reminds me of the cat and dog joke...

something like...

Dog thinks:

"He feeds me. He brings me toys. He takes away my poop. He must be God."

Cat thinks:

"He feeds me. He brings me toys. He takes away my poop. I must be God."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:37 PM

3. well, maybe you should

 



it is a joke, folks.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:39 PM

5. I did, when I was a child.

I didn't find prayer to be particularly effective, though, so I gave it up for Lent in 1965.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 PM

37. I'll pray for you...

 

Hate to say it but that annoys the hell out of me!

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Response to JoeBlowToo (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:56 PM

44. And I will think for you...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:27 PM

165. It's comforting to know that I am in your thoughts...

 

another odious cliche.

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Response to JoeBlowToo (Reply #165)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:16 AM

169. Yes, it's so much better to be ignored when you're going through

personal struggles. Seriously: I can understand not wanting people to pray on your behalf, but to not even keep you in their thoughts? Welcome to the rest of your self-induced lonely, isolated life.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:38 PM

4. As an atheist, I object to our elected leaders ceding responsibility to god.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:40 PM

7. 'God' is simply another word for 'conscience'.

And I have no beliefs in one whatsoever so I guess I have a more direct line to my 'god'.

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Response to randome (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:47 PM

23. Not even remotely

As a gay man in my 40s I refuse to believe that all the violence and discrimination directed towards societies minorities in the name of "God" in anyway resembles conscience.

con·science
/ˈkänCHəns/
Noun
An inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.

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Response to FreeState (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:10 PM

58. For the majority of 'believers', I think what I stated is true.

However, I do recognize that 'God' is often used as a cudgel by the militant right. When it is not -such as at the Inauguration- I say, 'Eh. That's nice. What else you got?' Rather than be outraged. The outrage is more productively applied to people's actions rather than their beliefs, I think. In fact, many times what they truly want is to be attacked for their beliefs.

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Response to randome (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:12 PM

60. It's so confusing with all these gods being bandied about.

How do you keep up with it all?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:27 PM

70. You pretend they're all one....that has Multiple Personality Disorder.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:20 PM

112. Who is the Holy Ghost the ghost of???? Someone holy? A particularly nice white bird?

I really think he is the weak link in the catholic meme.

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Response to Walk away (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:38 PM

120. He's the one most ignored despite his awesome mission.

After all, Jesus said (after he died and then undied) that he was going to send the Holy Ghost to help guide us... not a frickin' book. What happened?

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #120)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:54 PM

126. He was interviewed by someone from Fox News so...he was misquoted.

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Response to Walk away (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:36 PM

148. It is the female of the family

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Response to FreeState (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:52 AM

168. Socrates

 

When he was accused of atheism (and corruption of youth) by Athenians, he responded that because he listens to his "daimon", as he called voice of conscience, he is not atheist but more godly than most Athenians.

So it can be said that that view has long history and central place in Western thought and experience.

As well as the fact that Socrates was found guilty and sentenced to death, mostly for the perceived appearance of "hollier than thou" attitude from Socrates.

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Response to randome (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:34 PM

73. 'God' is simply another word for 'conscience'.

Oh if only it was, what a world it would be

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Response to randome (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:12 PM

98. Pretty close to correct

God is a concept, in the mind. Different minds have different concepts. Ergo why there are so many religions. Our brains can experience higher levels of meta concepts and deep emotional experiences of intense emotions. Some people liken these experiences and meta-meta-concepts as "god." But really, they are concepts in the mind. There is no creator god outside of us, unless there is some meta-meta-level of conscious gthat exists outside the know universe--way beyond the light barrier--and we have no evidence for that. So if you want "god" to exist in the known universe, on this planet, then that concept must be manifested by each of us as we are best able to do. God lives within each of us, as us, but not as some outside personality that can suspend the laws of physics. So praying to a diety is, at best, comforting, but not particulary effective at creating change and outcomes. Meditating on what is, what can be, and what I can do to effect a different outcome seems a more promising focus of mind.

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Response to randome (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:47 PM

122. I have no doubt many people believe that

They are usually the same ones who think affiliation with organized religion entitles them to a moral high horse. Unfortunately the reliance on bronze age to near bronze age religious tomes for one's ethical compass inevitably leads to fuckups especially when it comes to civil rights. The results of the application of religious based ethics speak for themselves.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 PM

9. I haven't actually seen any of them do that, actually.

I've seen them asking for their deity to provide a blessing. The likelihood of that seems minuscule. But, I haven't seen anyone ceding anything like responsibility. Perhaps you have an example.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:42 PM

14. Just my interpretation of all prayer.

Blessings? What the hell is that? Is that what football players do before games? Tebow, perhaps?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 PM

29. Blessings are what causes nice things. Curses do the opposite.

At least that's how it's supposed to go. I hadn't noticed any shortage of either, despite my lack of belief. Whatever floats a guy's boat, I guess.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:42 PM

12. "Take the wheel, Jesus," is not the vibe I get from the President. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:43 PM

16. But he obviously feels the pressure to create that appearance, doesn't he?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 PM

36. I do not see the obviousness you claim. Perhaps he genuinely likes going to services.

It's his right.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 PM

39. Not really. He appears to be a man

who has some religious beliefs. He's welcome to them, as far as I'm concerned. I can't see how it does any harm, really.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:52 PM

78. He does. But that doesn't make HIM the problem. Thank you for your concern.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #78)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:57 PM

83. And where did I say he was?

Your welcome for my concern.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:12 PM

136. Some people do find solace in their beliefs. My Mom was one of them.

She was never whack, but I know she felt comforted when she said the rosary.

I think it's like in AA, giving it over to a higher power. I learned (since I don't believe in God) that it just essentially meant getting out of your own way.

If only more people would follow the actual teachings and guidance of those wise men and women along the way, instead of being cowed or empowered by the man-made rules.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:44 PM

18. Too bad. This is a religious country. Get over it.

I'm not a believer either. But I'm also not out to evangelize and insist my atheism on others. Freedom is more important than the prevalence of atheism. With that in mind, I believe in giving our elected leaders and all Americans the freedom to believe (or not believe) however they want and the freedom to publically express that. As long as its not used as a basis for legislation, then it doesn't hurt me, nor does it hurt you. Stop pretending that it does. We all know better.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:46 PM

20. How do you know it's not a basis for legislation?

You said it yourself, this is a religious country, not a secular one. Our laws are reflected in that.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:51 PM

35. What an odd question.

If a President or whoever is participating in prayer, they aren't writing legislation at that moment, they are praying.

Religion is a basis for legislation whenever someone proposes a law that is bluntly based on some religion's scriptural direction. For example, banning gay marriage because its "an abomination to God" or some BS like that.

Of course there are moral ideas that overlap secular moralism and religious moralism, like murder and theft for example. But we don't outlaw murder and theft simple because the Bible says its wrong. There are many, secular, nonreligious premises for the conclusion that murder and theft are bad for society.

So I don't care if my President or any citizen of this country publically celebrates their religion as long as they aren't trying to implement laws that are specifically born from that religion's teachings with no obvious secular overlap.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:32 PM

119. Religion is used as a basis for legislation.

Under the "faith-based initiatives program," billions of federal tax dollars are being given to religious organizations with the understanding that they will deliver social services. However, under this program, there is no way to ensure that these religions organizations will not discriminate in their hiring of people who deliver these social services.

And by the way, imagine if someone were to say, "Too bad. This is a white country. Get over it." How would that make you feel? It would make me feel sick.

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Response to Chef Eric (Reply #119)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:42 PM

121. Thats not "religion being used as a basis" for legislation.

No religion that I know of has a commandment that says "thou shalt create a faith based initiatives program and give billions to religious organizations in exchange for social services". Sorry, your attempt at making a point falls flat because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm talking about enforcing religious doctrine via the law, such as anti-gay rights laws based on Biblical teachings against homosexuality.

And yea, if someone were to say that, it would be horrible and racist. However, what I said is not racist or discriminatory in any fashion whatsoever. Actually its the opposite of that because, though I am not a believer, I firmly believe in the RIGHT for people, elected officials or average citizens, to be able to peacefully express their religion however they see fit. If they want to express it during an inauguration ceremony, that fits my criteria. Its peaceful, it hurts NO ONE and its done simply as an expression of faith, not as an attempt to force others to follow that faith. And your attempt to equate advocacy of religious freedom with racism is disgusting and most certainly worth getting sick over.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #121)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:42 PM

149. The legislation is based on religion.

It allocates tax dollars to religious organizations BECAUSE they are religious organizations, and it excludes non-religious organizations BECAUSE they are non-religious organizations. In other words, it is discriminatory by nature. Does it enforce religious doctrine? Of course not. But it is unjust, and that is MY point. Maybe you don't have a problem with unjust legislation. So be it.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was equating "advocacy of religious freedom" with "racism." The point of my analogy, if you weren't able to see it, is that there is something very wrong about calling the United States a "religious country" merely because a "majority" believe in God.

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Response to Chef Eric (Reply #149)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:04 PM

158. We are talking about 2 entirely different things.

For one, I'm not even a big advocate of faith based initiatives programs. I'm not particularly offended by them either. I'm rather indifferent. Having said that, non-religious organizations get plenty of tax dollars from the government for similar reasons. You can't exactly call it a discriminatory practice when there are programs in place to give government funding to organizations of all stripes, religious or not.

Regardless, it still has nothing to do with what I was talking about at all. I was specifically talking about the practice of passing legislation based on a religious doctrine. There is no religious doctrine that orders us to setup a faith based initiative program, so that's irrelevant to the point I was speaking to. I'm talking about establishing laws and rights strictly based on religious teachings.

I came to that conclusion because of your poorly thought out comparison. It was worded in such a way that insinuated that saying "this is a religious country" is the same thing as saying "this is white country". That's ludicrous. And when I say we are a "religious country", I'm talking about our culture. This country has a deeply religious culture. That's all there is to it. Theres nothing wrong with pointing that out. Its true.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:49 PM

123. Just like this is a slave-owning country. Get over it.

Oh wait...we didn't just get over it and we're better off for having made a bit of a fuss in the 1860s.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:53 PM

124. Thats a disgusting insult to the people that had to endure slavery on your part.

You, like another poster, just attempted to compare the right to freely and peacefully express one's religion to the plight of slaves. You are no better than wing nuts likr Ted Nugent who try to compare gun humpers to Rosa Parks.

Maybe you should spend some time trying to think of a valid rebuttal to my argument (not that there really is one) instead of this flippant, complete failure of an attempt of making a point that doesn't even begin to make sense.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:56 PM

128. That's only because you're trying really, really hard to protect your lame argument.

Your claim is if the majority likes it, it's ok.

The majority has liked a lot of awful things over the years.

You want to lump religion in with those? Perhaps you should try another line of argument instead.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #128)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

133. I don't have to protect it. Its a valid argument and one you are completely unable to rebuttal...

...with any measure of honesty.

However, its clear that you don't even understand my argument. Theres actually 2 parts to it. I'm not arguing in favor of majority rule. I'm simply pointing out that most of the people in this country are religious, so first and foremost, people shouldn't feel all whiny and ass-sore whenever there is a public expression of it, especially when its done with absolutely no malicious intent whatsoever, as was the case with the inauguration ceremony. Religion is part of our culture. I am an atheist but I accept this fact. I pick battles that MATTER. And a few harmless prayers and shout outs to the invisible sky fairy do not hurt me or anyone else, so theres nothing worth having a battle over in that regard.

Secondly, its a RIGHT for people to be able to peacefully and publically express their religion. And that's why you need to get over it. Its a freedom that we all have and one we should continue to have. People here who are trying to shut down notions of religious freedom are anti-progressive.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #133)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:27 PM

143. Again, you just don't like the implications of your argument

I'm not arguing in favor of majority rule. I'm simply pointing out that most of the people in this country are religious, so first and foremost, people shouldn't feel all whiny and ass-sore whenever there is a public expression of it

Just like most people in this country were against interracial marriage, so that stupid Loving couple shouldn't have been all whiny when there was public expression against it.

And that Martin Luther King Jr. guy should have not been all whiny about civil rights - the majority liked Jim Crow.

Religion is part of our culture. I am an atheist but I accept this fact. I pick battles that MATTER.

All of them matter. Because when you make an exception here, you have to explain why it's OK here and not OK when it's in a classroom, or any other place where you do care about freedom of religion.

My ex went to school in the 80s in TN. The practice at that school was for a student to read a "saying of the day" over the intercom every morning. The student got to read any saying that was on a strip of paper in a particular box. Totally by coincidence, all of the sayings were from the bible. Students could not bring in their own sayings, even if they sought pre-approval.

This was LOOOOOONG after the SCOTUS had ruled many times that such behavior violated the separation of church and state, yet it continued because the majority of the parents felt it was wonderful to bring the bible into the school.

I bring that up for two reasons: First, this battle against constant violations of separation of church and state is still very much on-going. And second, when you say it's OK to break that separation here, you say it's OK to break that separation anywhere else. Because our laws must be applied consistently.

Secondly, its a RIGHT for people to be able to peacefully and publically express their religion.

Sure, as long as it doesn't appear that the government is endorsing one religion. The inauguration failed that test, in that it had official Christian prayers for the opening and closing of the ceremony.

People here who are trying to shut down notions of religious freedom are anti-progressive.

You're free to practice any religion you want. You are not free to have the government endorse your religion by including your religion's prayers in a government function. If you want to talk about anti-progressive, talk about the phrase "we're a Christian country".

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #143)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:21 PM

164. I LOVE the implications of my argument, and you are clueless on separation of church and state

"Just like most people in this country were against interracial marriage"

And theres where you totally lose the argument, first sentence. You are again comparing peacefully expressing religion to racism. Your entire argument falls completely flat on its face and dies a quick death right from jump with that idiotic, wrong headed comparison. You then spend your next few sentences reiterating the same foamy mouthed nonsense in different ways. I won't even bother to argue with that non-point any further. Its a waste of brain cells.

No one is breaking the separation of church and state by expressing their religion in an inauguration or any other public setting. You don't understand what separation of church and state means. You are obviously ignorant of where the phrase even came from (Jefferson) and what the person that said it meant by it.

Jefferson defined the concept as restricting that government 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof'. Having religious expressions at an inauguration event is not "making a law respecting an establishment of a religion". Unless you can illustrate that a law was passed respecting the establishment of a religion simply by the religious aspects of this or any other inaugurations ceremonies, then you have absolutely no legs to stand on whatsoever. Game over. You lose.

Also, you have it completely wrong as far as what the SCOTUS decided on Bible readings in schools. The court never said that it was unconstitutional to read the Bible in schools. The court ruled that FORCING students to participate in religious ceremonies was unconstitutional. Simply having religious ceremony, with voluntary participation is still completely legal. This is why schools all across the countries can still have prayer clubs and such.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1962/1962_142

"Did the Pennsylvania law and Abington's policy, requiring public school students to participate in classroom religious exercises, violate the religious freedom of students as protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments?
...
The Court found such a violation. The required activities encroached on both the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment since the readings and recitations were essentially religious ceremonies and were "intended by the State to be so." Furthermore, argued Justice Clark, the ability of a parent to excuse a child from these ceremonies by a written note was irrelevant since it did not prevent the school's actions from violating the Establishment Clause."

But getting back to separation of church and state, what is really funny is that your attitude is what is in complete violation of the concept. That part at the end about "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is exactly what you want to do. You want to prohibit the right of elected officials to freely exercise their religion in a public forum. If a President wants to have a few prayers at his inauguration, he or she is WELL within their rights to do so. That's free exercise of their religion and it in no way, shape or form violates any laws nor does it do anyone any kind of harm whatsoever. Period.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 PM

32. They don't. In any case, any God/ess worth their salt places responsibility squarely on human beings

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Response to sadbear (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:00 PM

129. +1

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #129)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:07 PM

132. Thanks for that one.

And cheers!

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:39 PM

6. I mind if it 's part of a national public ceremony. I don't care that you don't mind.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 PM

10. And I don't care that you do mind. Isn't America wonderful that way?

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:43 PM

15. I find it boring but otherwise I can't work up any anger over it

Whatever anyone believes is what they believe and can't be helped. I've never found prayer to be harmful, even to me.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:43 PM

17. You must be constantly troubled, then. It seems to be part of

most national public ceremonies and local ones, in one way or another. Invocations, benedictions, singing of songs, and the like. I can't see that it either accomplishes anything or causes any identifiable harm, really.

I missed the prayers yesterday. I was working. I showed up to watch the oath-taking (complete with mention of a deity) and the speech. The speech was excellent.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:53 PM

41. Because something exists and doesn't bother most people doesn't make it right.

Most Southereners were OK with slavery. Didn't make it right.
Most people in the past thought gays were sick and shouldn't be able to have the same rights as straights. Doesn't make it right.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:59 PM

48. And yet, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a minister. He was a believer.

He didn't think slavery was right, either, nor intolerance. Religious people are people, regardless of their beliefs, and they have all the faults associated with being human. Intolerance is just intolerance. Religion has little to do with it.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #48)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:27 PM

69. Which is totally non-responsive to my point.

I am not saying religion is wrong. I am saying the use of it in public ceremony is wrong.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:45 PM

76. It's not wrong, actually.

The only time prayer is wrong is when it is done in a place people are required to be, as in public schools, courtrooms, and places like that. If you are not compelled to be present, such prayers are legal and constitutional, as is singing hymns, and other religious expressions. That is settled law, with a long history of test cases.

The Inauguration of a President is a public event, but not one where anyone is compelled to be present, other than the person being inaugurated and whoever is giving the oath. It is merely a ceremonial event, and ceremony may include religious expression.

The thing is that the United States of America is not a non-religious country. It simply does not have an official religion. Its laws are not based on religion. It is a nation of people, many of whom have religious beliefs. They may express those beliefs as they see fit, and public ceremonies may include such expressions.

There are situations, like those I described above, where such expressions are not allowed. That is when they have the appearance of government sponsorship in some way. The actual Inauguration of the President this year took place in the White House on Sunday, Jamuary 20, as required by the Constitution. Monday's celebration was completely separate, and the entire thing was paid for without expending public money.

Intolerance of people's religious beliefs is the same as any other intolerance. It is not an American practice, or shouldn't be. If I cannot stand hearing religious expression, I have only to not be present. However, such expression does not bother me in any way, so I'm happy to be present at events where some sort of religious content occurs. It's of no importance to me, but I recognize that it has meaning to many others. Why would I care?

We are not a nation without religion. We are simply a nation with no official religion. There is a marked difference between those two things.

If you are offended by religious expression, then I suggest you avoid public celebrations.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:05 PM

89. +1000000

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #89)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:08 PM

93. Thanks!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:19 PM

110. Well said

 

I feel the same way. I too am an atheist. But it others want to pray, or light a candle, or light incense, or simply think good thoughts it doesn't bother me in the least. Don't force me to do anything and I won't force you to do or not do something.

For those that are offended by public displays of religiosity I say too bad. There is no 'right' to not be offended in this country.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:27 PM

115. That is yout r opion, not a fact.

And genug!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:56 PM

127. Well said!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:04 PM

130. Unfortunately, no

As placing a Christian prayer in the inauguration is government sponsorship. That violates the establishment clause.

It also wasn't entirely paid from private money. Obama, Biden, all those congresspeople and justicies were still on the government payroll to be there. They didn't take time off for the ceremony.

Have a prayer before the ceremony? That's just fine and personal. Shove it into the ceremony? That's saying the government is for Christians.

If people can be upset about Rick Warren in 2009 when he never mentioned gays at the inauguration, then any non-Christian should be free to be upset now. Yet DU didn't have post after post after post of "shut up gays!" then.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #130)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:48 PM

151. Rick Warren wanted Gays killed , those praying yesterday didn't want atheists killed

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Response to JI7 (Reply #151)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:04 PM

157. So if Warren only wanted them to continue to be second-class citizens, that would be OK? (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #157)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:08 PM

159. not ok, but not as bad as wanting them killed, but those praying didn't call for atheists to be 2nd

class citizens .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #159)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:14 PM

161. Actually, they did.

That's kinda the point of separating church and state - official support of one religion is, by necessity, making anyone not of that religion second-class.

It's the same as "look at all the wonderful married people! Suck it, gays!"

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:19 PM

163. so your saying Chuck Schumer was treated as 2nd class citizen at the inauguration because he is

jewish and it was christian prayers ?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:15 PM

138. That will change soon!

once those brown bastages take over and we have Sharia law It's coming soon!

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:53 PM

40. Why shouldn't national public figures have the freedom to celebrate their religion as much as...

...any other citizen? How does it hurt you exactly?

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:10 PM

96. It doesn't. But haters gotta hate.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 PM

11. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" is what this atheist says. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:50 PM

34. I think Cesar died some time ago.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:57 PM

45. What a Joker you are. nt (wink)

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:13 PM

61. And I'll bet he still looks marvelous.

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Response to marginlized (Reply #61)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:14 PM

62. No doubt!

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 PM

38. Fine. Tax the wealthier churches. But prayer is free.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:02 PM

50. I think you missed my point. I don't care what the President chooses as a necessary ritual.

I trust him to do what is right in the Oval Office.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:42 PM

13. The video of Michelle Obama rolling her eyes at something said to her in a social setting is popular

What you are seeing on these threads about religion in the inauguration is the online forum equivalent of that eyeroll.

I don't pray either and I don't care about those who do but I have read and understand the meaning of Matthew 6:6, seeing public prayer by Christians just makes me want to roll my eyes.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:47 PM

21. Oh, my eyes have been whirling around like slot machine symbols

since 1965. It's a wonder I can still see, really.

I attended a funeral last week. There, I got to hear some pastor who had never met the deceased pray about the "sure and certain hope" of life after death. Again, I was puzzled how a "hope" could be sure or certain. That never did make much sense to me. So it is with all prayers. They make no sense, but they don't do anything else, either.

Rolling eyes are one mark of a non-believer.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 PM

31. I have no face and I must roll my eyes

I feel that way online a lot.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:07 PM

91. Well, there's that. Always conveniently ignored for 2000 years. But Matthew 6:6 is not

part of US law.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:16 PM

106. Are you saying you are a better person than Michelle Obama?

Because I distinctly saw her roll her eyes in that video.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:44 PM

19. I'm more of an agnostic...I pray, but don't know to whom

or what.

I envy those who find so much comfort in their particular faith, but it just doesn't work for me. There's something programmed in us. A need just as real as hunger, thirst, or sleep.

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:08 PM

92. Life can be a pretty raw deal if death is the reward. I think many would

like some comfort in believing there is something beyond them, at the end of the road, so to say. I think there is a need. That said, I'm not a prayer type person. Often I do think we are an extraterrestrial experiment, I guess there's some comfort in that, I guess, I guess ... I had a friend almost die recently, I asked the whoever, whatever to save him. He's still alive.

Coincidence, probably, but often I think there is an energy that transcends mankind. That said, I am not a religious person at all, not in the least. I look at most of this from a theoretical point of view. However, I do understand those that need something, as long as they do not force their beliefs on me.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #92)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:30 AM

170. That's my favorite theory

there's some 6th grade alien out there who started us as a science experiment, he got a good grade and then forgot us in the back of the refrigerator.

My other theory is that we are God, each of us is one tiny piece of a collective energy.

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Response to Viva_La_Revolution (Reply #170)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:40 AM

171. Yep!!! The collective energy concept is quite interesting. Also ... I wish the

6th grade alien would get that refrigerator fixed so we can fix this global warming thing! LOL

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #171)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:48 AM

172. I think the alien had some college....

but the problem is something he can't figure out.. How to get these folks clothing, food, heat, transportation, etc., when every source of energy produces something that is warming the climate.

He hopes to get back into production with us soon. He wants to provide us with nighttime vision, wings to fly, lungs that work with water better, digestion that works only with green stuff that makes wonderful fertilizer, empathy, love for each other and all animals...and best of all, fur or feathers. He keeps coming back to something close to a monkey, except they don't fly or swim. Give him time.

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #172)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:14 PM

173. Yep, he's got some time, the final exam isn't 'till the end of the semester. n/t

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:47 PM

22. Likewise.

Atheist here, as well. Doesn't bother me a bit that other people pray...nor do I think less of them. It's not like I can prove by beliefs are correct. Despite wingnut claims to the contrary ("He's a Muslim!!"), President Obama is a Christian believer. I have no issues with him indicating that in public from time to time. That in no way constitutes an "establishment of religion," nor does it offend me in the least.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:47 PM

24. Solipsicity!

Oh! It's better anecdotes.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)


Response to soft_eyes (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:48 PM

28. Wow, you're still around?

5...4....3...2...

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Response to sadbear (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:21 PM

66. Pizza delivery!

nt.

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Response to soft_eyes (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:59 PM

47. U r ded. nt

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Response to soft_eyes (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:02 PM

49. Who is George?

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #49)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:03 PM

51. Where is George?

Where has he been, and where is he going?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:06 PM

54. Beats me. I can't figure out why people want to be thrown out

after 4 posts....My question refers to soft eyes' post that was hidden...

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:08 PM

56. I know.

The funny thing is that any of the links in my signature line leads to my name being displayed. It's so funny when someone thinks they've discovered something. I have up Internet anonymity as an impossibility long, long ago. Still, it's not nice to do that on DU.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:48 PM

26. That is pretty much it...

I take little notice of this administration's religiousness. I guess it is because
they take no notice my non-religiousness.


Tikki

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:48 PM

27. praying is one of the most useless activities humans do...

Planking was more productive LOL...

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:04 PM

52. Yet even great men and women do it.

Every MLK Day, people who protest some aspect of the Government, drag out MLK's speeches to make their point.

They hold him up as a beacon, and denounce others for not heeding his words.

He was a man of prayer, which some people refer to as "silly" and "useless."

Myrlie Evers-Williams' invocation was attacked by many of those same people.

Tolerance isn't what it used to be.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:31 PM

71. Just because they do it doesn't make it useful

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #71)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:40 PM

74. See, that's an opinion.

I mean, there are a lot of things some people do that others can deem useless.

Some think watching TV is useless. Others think worrying about what other people do is useless.

Spirituality is personal, albeit an activity shared by millions. The point is that condemning people for praying is simply intolerance.




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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:33 PM

72. And great men and women don't do it, also...

It is just something people do...or don't do.


Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:53 PM

80. True, but that wasn't the point.

Ghandi was a spiritual man. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual man.

I'm saying a being offended by a person's spirituality is pointless, comdemning them for it is intolerance.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:04 PM

87. Calling something useless is not necessarily condemning them.

More likely something is useless when it doesn't work as advertised.

Most people just don't buy the product again.

What's that.."doing something over
and over expecting a different outcome...."


Some never even started.

Tikki

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:10 PM

97. It is IMO a catharsis for many ... n/t

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 PM

30. Oh, c'mon, even an atheist like you can

 

PRAY!
&feature=player_detailpage

No parachute pants required, though it might be interesting if you had a pair

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Response to MadHound (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:50 PM

33. a true classic

 

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Response to MadHound (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:05 PM

53. Why do you think I don't have parachute pants?

Shows how much you know.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:12 PM

59. Oh, it wouldn't surprise me at all,

 

But how far back in the closet are they, and do they still fit you, and would your wife die laughing if you put them on, oh, and post the video so we can be let in on the fun of MM and Hammertime

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Response to MadHound (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:21 PM

67. I have not seen them for some time, but I could lay hands on them

if the occasion arose. Now, I'm not sure what that occasion might be, but they're there, just in case.

I did get rid of my blue leisure suit, though, some years ago. The shirts with the big lapels, too.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #67)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:26 PM

68. Hey, you never know, the leisure suit and big lapels could be making a comeback,

 

It seems that styles are cyclic, and what is old becomes new again. That's why I've hung on to my dashiki for all these years.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #68)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:52 PM

79. And I still have my Nehru jacket.

I did wear that, though, at a party with a 1960's theme. It was a big hit, since nobody had seen one for a long time.

It was a lovely blue and red silk paisley pattern. Marvelous.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:56 PM

43. I have no belief in an afterlife.

But I still find expressions of religion to be deeply satisfying when done well. It all depends on your outlook, I suppose. Instead of a strict adherence to accuracy.

This is my favorite Flash comic.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:58 PM

46. Evidently,

respect for religious freedom (Agnosticism, Animism, Atheism, Buddhism, Deism, Hinduism, humanism, Islam, Judaism, Pantheism, Sikhism, etc.) is no longer a progressive value.

I remember people condemning a Native American prayer at Gabby Gifford's ceremony.

Whatever happened to tolerance?


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Response to ProSense (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:06 PM

55. Tolerance? That's so...archaic.

As for the Native American prayer at her funeral, I must admit to having some trouble following it. My mind kept wandering, somehow.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:10 PM

57. NOTICE: I do not care!

I kid...seriously, I have no problem with other peoples belief system - as long as they don't try and force it down my throat. THAT is when we have a problem.

Do people still 'swear to tell the truth...' on the Holy Bible in court?

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Response to Rex (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:18 PM

64. On the court thing, some people still swear oaths that way.

There's no requirement to do that, though. In my court appearances, I have always simply affirmed my oath. It's easy. You just say to the bailiff, "I will affirm my oath."

In California, no Bible is presented in court when people are sworn any longer.

In some Bible Belt states, you'll get a funny look if you choose to affirm your oath, but it doesn't really matter.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:20 PM

65. I will have to remember that line, if ever needed.

Thanks! I live in south Texas, but would still risk saying it - no Bible needed.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:54 PM

125. It depends on the state.

North Carolina, for example, still has you swear on a bible and say "so help you God".

So I committed perjury to get married in North Carolina. At a courthouse, not a church.

Hrm, perhaps that's why it turned out to be such a crappy first marriage....and my second perjury to get a divorce via the same oath.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

134. Mine was common law and didn't work out at all.

But hey we tried for 9 years. Just was not ment to be.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:22 PM

140. You don't have to. Just say you'll affirm your oath

and let them figure it out. They may pull out a Bible, but you don't have to use it.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #140)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:30 PM

144. Yeah, tried that. Got a bible.

Explained we were atheists. Got the bible shoved closer.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #144)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:34 PM

146. Oh, I love situations like that. I insist on my rights.

It's great fun. I was even one of the first, if not the first, airman in USAF basic training to get a set of dogtags that said Atheist on them. It took some doing, and the intervention of a Jewish chaplain, who understood the regulations and the Constitution. But they made me a set, and it's on my DD Form 214, too. I take great pleasure in insisting on my rights. So far, I've won every time.

But, when was this that you had that experience? What year?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #146)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:03 PM

155. 2001 (nt)

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Response to Rex (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:14 PM

101. I've testified in court on a few occasions and there was never a bible in sight.

They just had me raise my hand and swear to tell the truth. And no "so help me God" at the end.

The bible and god version of it is probably only seen in movies now. I think it's been done away with in actual courts.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #101)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:19 PM

111. I was wondering if it was kept about for traditional purposes.

I see a lot of these recent threads about Church and State and also see the conflict with traditional methods and values, being confused with the separation. If it is hypocritical, than every piece of currency we have in our wallet is unconstitutional and therefore in default...so that means everyone should send me their worthless currency. To keep with moral standings in their community etc..!

I promise not to buy a riding lawnmower with the now worthless paper!

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:15 PM

63. Of all things, this thread is trending on DU's Home page.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:41 PM

75. Doesn't the Christian Bible command its followers...

...to pray in a closet,
and identifies those who "pray" in the front of crowds as hypocrites?

AFIC, these medieval Ceremonies are embarrassing to our nation before the World.
We should have moved on a long time ago.

Besides, EVERYBODY knows that Washington bows before only one GOD,

and THIS ^ is the Graven Image on their altar.

The handful of Democrats who actually served the Poor, the Sick, The Homeless, and the Imprisoned (you know, God's People) have been excommunicated from the Democratic Party and banished from the kingdom.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Religious Ceremonies.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:54 PM

81. It does, in Matthew 6. However, it also

commands that you not eat shrimp. Nobody follows all of the instructions of the Bible. Nobody. Praying in public is quite the popular thing to do for many Christians. A guy hears it all the time, it seems.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:07 PM

90. I wouldn't place shrimp on the same level

Not eating shrimp is part of the Jewish law, not part of the New Testament. Eating shrimp was considered ritualistically/culturally impure to Jews. Not praying in public is a commandment in the new testament. For Christians there is a difference in what old testament laws they fallow as they believe Jesus came to fulfill the law and much of the laws or restrictions are seen as non-aplicable to a Christian.

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Response to FreeState (Reply #90)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:13 PM

99. Ah, nitpicking, I see.

The Christian Bible includes the Old Testament, too. Praying in public or eating shrimp are both mentioned. However, so is loving one's neighbor and slaying entire cities and raping the women. It's all in the Bible. Folks follow whatever pleases them and ignore what they wish to ignore. Thus is religion practiced.

If you'd like to discuss Christian theology, though, the Religion Group would be a better place for that. I participate in that forum, and would be happy to comment on any thread about theology you start there. This isn't really a theological thread, though. Christianity is scarcely a single religion with a single set of dogmatic teachings. It's a very diverse religion, with thousands of sects and denominations. It's a favorite topic of mine, and I'm sure Rug, a denizen of that group, would be happy to join in as well.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #99)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 10:48 PM

174. No. That isn't "nitpicking".

What IS "nitpicking" is your reference from the Old Testament about not eating shrimp.
It is also a logical fallacy know as a "Red Herring",
but I'm more than happy to rename that particular Logical fallacy as
"Mineral Man's Shrimp Fallacy" if you are willing.
Do you think it will catch on?


The "New Testament" of the Christian Bible replaces the "Old Testament"
That IS the definition of "Testament".
The figure in the New Testament known as Christ stated that he brought New Laws.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:09 PM

95. Matthew 6 is straight from the lips of Jesus himself.

I will admit ignorance as to whether or not he ever said anything about shellfish, though.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #95)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:17 PM

107. Well, it is attributed to Jesus, certainly.

Did he actually say that? That's open for discussion. It's a good saying, and would be excellent as a practice. It is not, however, honored much by many Christians, it seems to me. But, then, there's lots of stuff reported to be the words of Jesus in Matthew that isn't honored, either. As I said, Christianity is a funny religion in its adherence to the supposed words of Jesus. Adherence is spotty, at best, generally. Since I am not a Christian, though, I leave that to those who are.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:27 PM

116. Is there a Christian out there who believes Jesus didn't say this?

And if it's open for discussion (at least between non-believers), certainly EVERYTHING attributed to Jesus is open for discussion, right? I'm not arguing against that supposition, but I suspect most Christians would, and as such, if they believe everything attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew was actually said by him, then certainly not following his directive in Matthew 6 seems quite disobedient.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #116)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:26 PM

141. Yes, indeed, everything attributed to Jesus

is open to question. None of the four Gospels were written by anyone who ever saw Jesus alive. What Christians believe or do not believe is not really my concern, but the Gospels are at least second hand and probably further removed from actual people who heard him speak. So, yes, it's a matter for discussion.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:04 PM

88. Were you contemptuous of Kucinich for

voting for this:

Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll1143.xml

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Response to ProSense (Reply #88)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:19 PM

108. Now, now. There's no need to be calling people to account

that way. It's inconvenient and borders on rudeness, doncha know?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:55 PM

152. Seems like Martin Luther King Jr. did some serious preaching out in public

What a showboater.

Reading the various thread discussing the presence of religious speech in the Inauguration celebration leads me to imagine a world in which Dr. King wasn't assassinated and at the inauguration of the first African American president he is invited to give the benediction. How many DUers would be criticizing that to, excuse the phrase, high heaven.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:45 PM

77. I pray.

It helps me a lot.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:55 PM

82. If it helps you, then I encourage you to

continue in your prayers. I have not found it to be helpful, personally, but that's me, not you.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:58 PM

84. i beg god for shit

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:02 PM

85. Constipated, eh?

I recommend prunes for that. Very efficacious.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:03 PM

86. MM, I don't mind either. "Whatever gets you to the light. . ."

". . .is all right. . is all right. . ." - John Lennon/Yoko Ono

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Response to DinahMoeHum (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:15 PM

103. I prefer the expression, "Whatever blows your dress up..."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:08 PM

94. I don't mind that you don't pray. nt.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:13 PM

100. Thanks. We should get along famously, then. nt

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:14 PM

102. Thank you

Unfortunately, you'll get slammed for even this OP. For many years, I considered myself an atheist/agnostic. Now I'm an Episcopalian agnostic (no, that isn't a contradiction in terms). I've always felt the same way you do.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:15 PM

104. WGAS!

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Response to corneliamcgillicutty (Reply #104)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:25 PM

114. Who, indeed?

As I said, not me.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:16 PM

105. That's okay. This country was founded on Freedom of Religion. You're in the clear. I do wonder how

anyone could be athiest after seeing a newborn baby's fingernails, eyelashes, softspot, umbillical cord, etc. Truly no mistake or chance happening. Do you believe in aliens? Just curious.

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Response to judesedit (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:25 PM

113. Agnosticism is only one that makes sense.

With 2500 religions on earth and our limited intelligence who is to say what? But I will go with evolution on the baby, of ANY species actually. 4 billion years of evolution can do unbelievable things, ie; Our inner ear bones we hear with came from 3 of the jaw bones of reptiles.

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Response to judesedit (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:28 PM

117. It's easy to be an atheist. You could try it, and you'll see.

As for aliens, of course I believe in them. When I was younger, resident aliens in the United States all had to fill out a form every year to let the government know their address. It was on TV and stuff, so they wouldn't forget. Do you disbelieve in aliens?

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Response to judesedit (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:31 PM

145. Actually, all of the primates have all those things, too.

It's all good evidence for evolution. Last time I was at the zoo, the gorilla, who was behind glass, was in a mood to participate in a little show and tell with me. So, we compared our fingerprints, fingernails, and tongues. The comparison demonstrated that those parts were almost identical between us. Isn't that amazing? It's fun to find one of the larger primates that is interested in playing show and look.

Every mammal has a navel and umbilical cord, too. They're unique to mammals. My dog has eyelashes, too, as do my cats. Evolution at work. We all evolved from common ancestors, at different times in the evolutionary past. We retain many, many similarities.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:19 PM

109. I do pray and don't care that you don't. It is sort of like I am straight and am perfectly happy

with my friends and relatives that are gay.

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Response to appleannie1 (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:29 PM

118. Thanks. That makes things so much easier,

doesn't it?

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:07 PM

131. whatevs

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #131)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:35 PM

147. Yeah, fer shure.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:10 PM

135. It's mystifying

that people who do not believe in any god and reject religion would be concerned about what people who subscribe to religion do. It is often a positive force in the lives of believers. I say let them enjoy it.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:16 PM

139. You're shocked that you don't pray!?

Of course you aren't, but I suppose I should act like you are, since that seems to be one of the more common but stupid and pointless responses.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:26 PM

142. I don't mind that people pray either.

My preference is they do it in their own homes or in their church or whatever religions building they go to. If it's a public thing, I probably just won't watch. I get a bit tired of the G'd bless you's and what not's, I don't feel like being blessed thanks much though.

That being said, I am pretty much an IDONTCAREIST. I don't believe that people have even close to the right concept of what a god is. I don't believe I am even close in an understanding of what a god is either. But, I don't believe I can say with 100% certainty that the universes weren't created by something. And I can't say that when we die that's it, but I do believe that is the case. In any case I find religion, annoying, silly, grating, boring, useless depending on my given mood.

Some will say I am intolerant just for saying that I find religion annoying, silly, useless, grating, or whatever. And perhaps they are right, but then I don't care if they feel like my feelings of religion are intolerant. It's not like I can change how I feel.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:42 PM

150. I suppose I qualify as an agnostic

I have no idea if there is a god/several "godlike somethings" out there/some deity or existence beyond us.

I find it rather unlikely, but I can't rule it out.

I also find the concept of prayer (as a means of influencing something, or getting some desired result) rather absurd, in line with "The Secret" or something like that, but as a form of meditation it might do some good - for the person praying, at the very least. And possibly something beyond that. Unlikely, IMHO, but who can really know?

Some of the most highly religious people I've known throughout my life have been the kindest, most caring people I've ever met (have some in my family, love them), and others have been among the most close minded, hateful, narrow minded people I've ever come across. They all seemed to be guided, first and foremost, by their religion, somehow, though. That's the part I'm struggling with (the "inspired" part I get).

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:56 PM

153. I don't believe in a conventional Biblical God

But I do believe in something greater than myself working through other people. Even if it is only to access ones own super ego for guidance, something about humbling yourself to ask, can bring answers and help.

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Response to libodem (Reply #153)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:58 PM

154. Each person has his or her own way of thinking.

It's a wonderful thing. Your beliefs are uniquely yours.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #154)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:10 PM

160. Yes

I really respect nonbelievers. My dad was an atheist and a very logical reasoned thinker. I like a sound mind and clear thinking. I just can't be as cut and dried about it.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:04 PM

156. I don't usually either unless I'm in a pinch. . . .

And in that case I pray to Samantha Stevens or really go for the Big Guns and pray to Endora.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:19 PM

162. I don't mine either

I'm a non-religious person. I believe in live and let live. I believe it is OK for me to do anything I want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else nor keeps them from doing what they want. I do not feel it is for me to decide what is harmful or what is or isn't right. Thats for you and society as a whole to determine.
I hope I got this worded right, if not I apologize

I know a lot more Christians and or religious people than I do people who believe like I do and that is fine by me. I don't try to convince anyone else to see things my way and I don't want them bugging me. I've given this decision many hours of thought, its not something that I just woke one morning and decided this is how I believe.

At any rate lets all be friends.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:15 PM

166. I was born this way

just staid with me, pretty lucky

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