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Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:40 AM

Excellent letter to the editor about those who are paranoid that the government will take their guns

http://www.fbnewsleader.com/articles/2013/01/21/opinion/00editletters05.txt


Unfounded fears


After reading countless and mostly unfounded articles here about gun control and the unending fear Uncle Sam will knock on our doors and take our weapons away, I must add not so much an opinion, but some checkable facts. These facts confirm Ronald Reagan's views and his actions on this very controversial topic.

We have all been following this story. Many seem to be more concerned about the government dumping the Second Amendment than the shooting of 20 children and six adults in Newtown, Conn. They were 26 in a total of approximately 11,000 killed each year by guns. Did you know that if you are a young black man in Philadelphia you have more of a chance of being killed by a gun than our combat soldiers overseas? That is one scary thought. Would you want to be the parent that tells his kid, "Hey, Johnny, please go to war; you'll be safer than if you stay here and work or go to school." "We the People" are kind of missing the boat here.

I don't care if you are pro or con on the Second Amendment. It really doesn't matter to me. You are given that right under the First Amendment. We all can think and say what we want. The truth is simple - no one is looking to take our Second Amendment rights away - get over it! You can read all the blogs, watch whatever cable station you like or listen to all the talk radio you want, but no one in any branch of government has even hinted that this is what they want. The Congress and the White House are fighting over gun control. They are not talking about gun elimination. Assault elimination, yes. Gun elimination, no. No one has even come close to proposing we give up our right to bear arms.

They just want to take those pesky little guns that shoot bullets at a speed of about 2,000 feet per second. That is almost seven football fields in a second. Man, think about what that would do to a squirrel or a deer close up - no, better yet, think about what that did to 20 children close up. Not a pretty thought, is it?

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Reply Excellent letter to the editor about those who are paranoid that the government will take their guns (Original post)
mfcorey1 Jan 2013 OP
Atman Jan 2013 #1
mfcorey1 Jan 2013 #2
Atman Jan 2013 #3
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #4
Atman Jan 2013 #6
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #7
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #8
Javaman Jan 2013 #11
Atman Jan 2013 #15
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #27
Javaman Jan 2013 #41
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #43
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #54
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #57
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #61
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #62
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #63
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #65
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #55
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #59
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #56
geckosfeet Jan 2013 #58
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #60
jmg257 Jan 2013 #5
sulphurdunn Jan 2013 #9
jmg257 Jan 2013 #14
RC Jan 2013 #10
jmg257 Jan 2013 #13
hack89 Jan 2013 #17
RC Jan 2013 #35
hack89 Jan 2013 #36
RC Jan 2013 #39
hack89 Jan 2013 #42
RC Jan 2013 #44
hack89 Jan 2013 #45
RC Jan 2013 #46
hack89 Jan 2013 #47
RC Jan 2013 #48
hack89 Jan 2013 #50
regjoe Jan 2013 #12
Atman Jan 2013 #16
regjoe Jan 2013 #18
Atman Jan 2013 #19
regjoe Jan 2013 #20
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #22
regjoe Jan 2013 #23
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #25
Atman Jan 2013 #26
regjoe Jan 2013 #30
Atman Jan 2013 #29
regjoe Jan 2013 #31
jmg257 Jan 2013 #21
regjoe Jan 2013 #24
jmg257 Jan 2013 #28
regjoe Jan 2013 #32
jmg257 Jan 2013 #33
regjoe Jan 2013 #34
jmg257 Jan 2013 #37
regjoe Jan 2013 #38
jmg257 Jan 2013 #49
Marrah_G Jan 2013 #40
abelenkpe Jan 2013 #51
Marrah_G Jan 2013 #53
bongbong Jan 2013 #52
haele Jan 2013 #64

Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:14 AM

1. The nutters still have a million answers for that.

Usually along the lines of "That's what they tell you now. They're just getting ready." Or "That's what Hitler said." (FYI, Hitler in fact greatly eased the Weimar Republic gun restrictions already in place when took office, and he encouraged gun ownership. The vast majority of German households had guns.)

It's a lost cause. You can't reason with paranoia.

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Response to Atman (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:15 AM

2. Sounds like what Mitch McConnell tried to say in an e-mail to his supporters on

Inauguration Day.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:28 AM

3. They have no regard for truth.

I've had this discussion with them a hundred times. It is frustrating and childish. They just say "You're drinking the Kool-Aid! Don't look to me to protect you when they're kicking in your door!"

Well, it's usually more like this:

"your drinking the cool-Ade dont look to me pertec yowhen there kicking in your door. You hate America.go live in a Comunist country.pussys like you wood be right athome their"

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Response to Atman (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:45 AM

4. They certainly will. I don't count myself as a nutter, but simply by being an owner

a lot of folks here will lump me into that group. It seems like it's ok to broad brush whole groups of people on some topics (see post #3).

Anyway, what happened in CT was a national tragedy. So were all the shootings before and since. But short of making every firearm disappear you are not going to stop people from shooting themselves or even others. It's a sad true fact. And before we can move on to talk about the reality of gun control, people have to face this fact. You either decide to go door to door, agency to agency, police dept. to police dept. and remove every firearm in the country and plug the borders so that guns can't get in, or you deal with reality.

on edit: Lots of good ideas have been floated lately - along with some really bad ones. Someone has to sort through the chaff and propose effective legislation.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:24 AM

6. Not all gun owners are "nutters."

But your argument tends to jibe with many of them. You seem to think gun control advocates are seeking an all-or-nothing approach. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Seat belts laws were vehemently opposed as a violation of rights, but are widely accepted now. Do seat belts stop ALL automobile deaths? Of course not. But they've dramatically reduced their number. Same can be said for your "right" to smoke. No one says you can't smoke. But regulations about where you can smoke have dramatically reduced deaths. The list of similar comparisons is quite long.

For the bazillionth time, there is no movement to take your guns away. It isn't going to happen. What people are calling for is some common sense regulation to help reduce the likelihood of another mass shooting. No one expects to eliminate gun deaths. But there is absolutely no reason we can't take steps to make Americans safer.

No one is coming to take your guns!

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Response to Atman (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:42 AM

7. All my life I've

heard warnings about the government confiscating firearms. If anyone knows of any time in the history of this country that private citizens have had their weapons confiscated en mass by their government, please let me know.

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Response to Atman (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:46 AM

8. I don't think that. But I have seen "serious du'ers" proposing a repeal of the second amendment.

One example
Repeal the 2nd Amendent

Of course I don't know how serious this person was - see post count.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:09 AM

11. Lots of people speak in hyperbole, but if you actually read the Constitution and

realized just how incredibly hard it is to either pass a new amendment or repeal one, you would know that any argument of such is nothing but ignorance and failure.

So please stop it. You are not helping anyone by continuing this type of "hair on fire" conversation.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:32 AM

15. Thank you!

I guess they don't teach Civics classes anymore. It is so difficult to pass a Constitutional Amendment anyway, how easy do these people think it would be to pass one on an issue as contentious as banning guns or repealing 2A? It's ridiculous! When I attempt to point this out, they scream the "Obummer doesn't care about the Constitution! He'll just act on his own!" as if it would be legally possible for one President to simply amend the Constitution with a pen stroke. These people have just gone nuts...thus "Gun Nutters."

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Response to Javaman (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:13 PM

27. I am not proposing unconstitutional regulation.

Tell me again - what I am supposed to stop doing?

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:49 PM

41. To quote you...

"But I have seen "serious du'ers" proposing a repeal of the second amendment."

1) I pointed out how ill-informed that kind of talk is 2) give me links to the "serious du'ers" who are advocating as such.

The link you provided is by a du'er who has less than 150 posts and only has been a member since Dec. 9th of last year. I don't consider that a "serious du'er".

then you go on to say, "I don't know how serious this du'er is" which contradicts your about observation of "serious du'ers".

don't spread ridiculousness, it's very unattractive.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:06 PM

43. I did not make the proposal.

on edit: I am presuming some level of "serious" since they took the time to post. BTW - not the only such post.

Your point is taken about the nature of such proposals. I suppose they should just be ignored as responding feeds into the hysteria.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:19 PM

54. Point to one of these serious DU'ers that are members of any

Legislature, will pass legislation to this effect and have the power to change the Constitution.

Do they teach Civics these days?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 03:05 AM

57. I don't know any personally.

But I can write about supporting it just as quickly as they can write about dismantling it.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 06:44 PM

61. And...you know the steps to amend the Constitution

Make this bluster close to...impossible...right.

It is both a strength and a weakness.

I can scream till I am blue in the face that I want to change the Second, the Third, or just get a new in...it is so difficult that unless you got a movement, that ain't gonna happen.

None is gonna take your guns, or mine, serious.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:24 PM

62. Yes. Just sayin - if people can hysterically rant about removing it

I can hysterically rant about keeping it.

I think that's fair.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #62)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:36 PM

63. And I will take your rants as seriously

As I take theirs...that be not at all

As you said, fair is fair.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #63)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:41 PM

65. We have reached a point of agreement then.

I knew it could be done.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:22 PM

55. Gun Owner is to Gun Nutter as...

"It seems like it's ok to broad brush whole groups of people on some topics..."

Gun Owner is to Gun Nutter as Christian is to Fundy.

Let's not martyr ourselves simply for dramatic and petulant effect.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 03:33 AM

59. That's exactly how it's done.

Now not only can everyone can go ahead and feel OK about calling people names, but they can feel good about attacking the constitution.

It's a win win.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:25 AM

56. Here's a suggestion for all the good guy gun owners. Why dont you "sort through the chaff

and propose effective legislation." Since you know so much about the subject, you would be perfect. I have a feeling you wont, but just sit back and complain about whatever those of us that dont know about guns, except they kill, come up with.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 03:29 AM

58. Well, since you asked.

"Nothing in the Second Amendment prevents reasonable regulation."#1

  1. Fill holes in the instant background check database by requiring states to report in a timely fashion people who are disqualified from owning firearms.

  2. Increase state penalties for crimes committed with guns, or prosecute criminals in federal courts when federal penalties are heavier than under penalties under state law

  3. Close the loophole that exempts private sellers of arms, at gun shows or anywhere else, from the requirement to clear buyers with the NICS database. Ignore NRA protests that this is an inconvenient imposition or intrusion on privacy.

  4. Crack down (hard) on straw purchasers and on firearms dealers who knowingly sell to them or to disqualified buyers.

  5. Encourage all fifty states to pass legislation requiring state or local licenses to own a gun

  6. Encourage all fifty states to pass legislation to mandating training and qualification in the use and storage of firearms

  7. Authorize national safety standards for the mechanical safety of guns themselves.

  8. Require all firearm thefts or losses to be reported to the authorities within 48 hours of the time of discovery

  9. Let the ATF do it's job free of congressional obstruction



#1 Living with Guns, A liberals Case for the Second Amendment, by Craig R. Whitney (My apologies to Mr.Whitney for paraphrasing his writing.)

For the record, I don't "sit back and complain".

I think public safety is a legitimate reason for regulating firearms. I do NOT believe in banning any rifles, handguns, magazines or ammunition unless it can be demonstrated that the design is mechanically unsound or fails to meet safety criteria.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:11 AM

60. Forgive my over reaction. I appreciate your list and case presented.

While I agree those are good recommendations, and would certainly help, I dont think they are enough. A trained idiot is still an idiot. Knowing where guns are or were would help after the disasters but not do much to prevent them.

I feel that it is within our Constitutional rights to decide what types of weapons citizens can own. We draw that line today. I suggest we move the line and get high capacity weapons, out of the hands of the public.

Thanks again for the response.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:04 AM

5. Not bad, s/he was doing well - sort of lost it at the end.

So let's ban just about all rifles except .22lr (but apparently NOT go and get them from their current owners) and get it over with.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:49 AM

9. I'm curious

as to how government would go about confiscating approximately 270,000,000 privately owned firearms from about 85,000,000 homes.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:09 AM

14. It won't happen...but they may try to get rid of as many of the targeted ones as they can.

Bans, non-tranferable registration, and buyback.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:02 AM

10. I'm thinking he was talking about the Bushmaster look-a-likes.

 

There are no good reasons why any civilian needs a military knock-off. The looks alone are a problem because of the mind-set of the people they attract. It is the Rambo fantasies that these people entertain. They think they need them for home invasions by 10 or more people. They think they need them to ward off the government for whatever variety of reasons. Then think they need them because it makes them more scary, so people will respect them. They think they need them so they can hold off whole gangs of "bad guys" with their scary looking people killer. For that's what it is designed to do, kill people. Never mind these people think they can use their military knock-off to hold at bay and shoot up the advancing hoards, armed with the same types of weapons. Thinking at part through never enters their minds.
The Bushmaster look-a-likes are themselves a problem. For many that think they need a Bushmaster or similar, they should not even be allowed to have access to guns in the first place. This country would be a safer place.

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Response to RC (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:29 AM

13. I understand what they were TRYing to say, but in a letter

Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:18 AM - Edit history (1)

that talks about "Unfounded Fears" and "Unfounded Articles", and pushes "checkable facts", it eventually closes with some goofy unintelligent BS about squirrels & deer, and so-called 'facts' which, oh BTW - would include banning AND TAKING just about all rifles!


"Unfounded fears

After reading countless and mostly unfounded articles here about gun control and the unending fear Uncle Sam will knock on our doors and take our weapons away, I must add not so much an opinion, but some checkable facts. These facts confirm...
...

They just want to take those pesky little guns that shoot bullets at a speed of about 2,000 feet per second...



Silly....not so excellent at all, as it convinces no one that most of their guns are 'just fine'.

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Response to RC (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:51 AM

17. So if it doesn't look like a military rifle a semi-automatic rifle is ok?

Or does "Bushmaster look-a-likes" = all semi-automatic rifles?

That is never made clear - where the line between legal and illegal is drawn.

Should this gun be legal, for example:

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Response to hack89 (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:05 PM

35. You are deliberately not getting it

 

Reread my post again. Does that look like a Bushmaster or one of the look-a-likes? No.
I'm picking on Bushmaster because most everyone knows what they look like now, especially after Sandy Hook.

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Response to RC (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:11 PM

36. And you are not getting it

that rifle is a Mini-14. Shoots the same bullet as a Bushmaster at the same rate of fire using high capacity magazines.

It more than meets this criteria:

They just want to take those pesky little guns that shoot bullets at a speed of about 2,000 feet per second.


This fixation on how a gun looks will not make anyone safer. None of the proposed AWB laws will prevent future Newtowns.

The only laws that will stop mass shootings completely are those that ban and confiscate all semi-automatic firearms, rifles and handguns.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:47 PM

39. So what? That is not my point. I don't care how fast whatever can project projectiles.

 

It is the looks of a weapon that was designed to be more efficient at killing humans. The looks that attracts a certain mind-set. A mind-set that fantasize about Rambo style movie exploits. The mind-set that gravitates toward a less stable, less reality oriented reality of being a hero by using his macho, testosterone inducing he-man war weapon, saving the day against imaginary bad guys, by carrying it into J.C. Penney, or anywhere else in public, for that matter. A reality that frames the term "gun nut" and give gun owners in general, a bad name. The very people that should be looked at to see if they should even be allowed to have weapons in the first place.
Instead of starting with," ...if it has a bayonet lug or flash suppressor..." or what not, use a picture of a Bushmaster style military knock-off, that attracts the less stable instead, and work from there, for getting some sanity in our gun laws.
It is most definitely the looks that attract the worst.
You NRA talking points are getting a little old. Laws against drunk driving hasn't stop driving drunk, but they have helped and helped a lot. The same goes for sane gun laws, for the exact same reason. True it will not stop all the insanity, but it will heavily curtail most of it. And that is what is needed.

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Response to RC (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:57 PM

42. Yet handguns are the weapon of choice for most mass killers

Va Tech shooter used handguns. There were no military style weapons at Columbine - it was planned to be a bombing.

Mass killers are methodical. They start with the idea of killing and work from there. They will find whatever weapons they can.

Handguns are the killers in America. PERIOD. In 2010 handguns were used to murder 6,009 people. Rifles of all kinds were used to murder 358.

Now you can fuck around all day redesigning the perfect looking rifle if you want but don't try to convince me that it will make America safer. Until you address handguns you are wasting your time.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:22 PM

44. All you did was move the goal posts.

 

If I were talking hand guns, you'd move over to something else. The point is the gun laws in this country are too lax, period. We need to start somewhere. Hand guns would be a good start too. But it was not hand guns that killed 20 1st graders. We need to start where the momentum is, to fix the fun problem. And right now that is the knock-off Bushmaster style weapons.
Gee, so many problems with too many guns floating around. It's hard to know where to start, huh?

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Response to RC (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:27 PM

45. We should start with a solution that would actually save lives.

you may only get one grab at the gun control ring. The idea of incremental gun control is a fantasy - it took 20 years to back to this point after the 1994 AWB. This may be your only shot for the next 20 years - if you want to piss it away just so you can say you "did something" then knock yourself out.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #45)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:36 PM

46. What is your solution that would actually save lives?

 

Please don't tell me more guns is the answer.

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Response to RC (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:42 PM

47. Simple

1. Decriminalize drugs and treat it as a public health issue. Empty the prisons of non-violent drug offenders. Take the money saved and spend it on education, jobs and healthcare.

2. Focus the legal system like a laser on violent offenders and get them off the streets. Use a weapon in the commission of a crime and go to prison for a very long time.

3. Single payer healthcare with strong mental health coverage.

Lets address root causes.

(I also support the president's EO's, universal background checks and limits on magazine size)

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Response to hack89 (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:00 PM

48. #2 has been tried.

 

It increased the murders committed during robberies. Why? the perpetrators had nothing to lose and something to gain by killing the victims - i.e., witnesses.

#1 & #3, I am already behind. The rest of the world has a good head start on us, US on these.
But that still leave the swamp of unregulated guns in this country. With $50 or less, I can walk a few blocks and buy an unregistered gun. No paperwork involved. I supposed the legality would hinge on whether the serial number is still visible.

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Response to RC (Reply #48)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:36 PM

50. So we we can't crack down on violent felons?

because they are too violent? BS.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:19 AM

12. I hear you

 

They're almost as bad as those paranoid fools who think government is infringing on or taking away their 1st Amendment rights. You know, the crazies who complain about the police knocking heads during protests. The crazies who complain about a cross or prayer on public ground.

Is an AR-15 a gun?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:38 AM

16. Yeah...where were the gun owners during the Bush administration? Thanks for nothing!

Not a peep as "Free Speech Zones" were instigated. Not a peep when the 4th amendment was violated by the NSA. Not a peep when the Patriotic Act made it crime to say bad things about the government.

They like to put up those signs that say "Without this (pic of gun), THIS (1A) is meaningless." Well, it appeared to be meaningless, anyway, because those gun-wielding "Patriots" didn't actually have the cajones to stand up and protect the Constitution. It only seems to matter if they think their precious is threatened.

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Response to Atman (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:00 AM

18. Where were the gun owners?

 

Probably sitting back and saying that "I don't like protests, so it's ok to infringe on the right of others on that right." People shouldn't be able to protest anywhere they want, so "Free Speech Zones" make sense. People don't want to be a victim of a mass bombing, so the Patriot Act is needed to keep us safe.
Funny how that works.

How can their ingoring the 1st and defending the 2nd, be any more "meaningless" than your willingness to ignore the 2nd and defend the 1st?
Imagine what would happen if We the People actually stood up for ALL of our rights, instead of just the one's we like?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:13 AM

19. That is one of the looniest "defenses" I've ever read!

LOL! You admit you're perfectly okay with taking away all sorts of rights.

Oh, and you haven't read my position. I'm not ignoring the 2nd Amendment. I'm not anti-gun. I actually enjoy shooting, and have used a Winchester (that was real kick!) and a basic double-barrel shotgun, as well as a couple of .22s. I'm NOT anti-gun.

I am anti-ignorance, and I am opposed to the ridiculous fear-mongering by the nutters who insist the government is coming to take their guns. The fact that you don't accept the absurdity of a "Free Speech ZONE" in a conversation about defending constitutional rights is absolutely laughable.

"People don't want to be a victim of a mass bombing, so the Patriot Act is needed to keep us safe."

Hey, I've got news for you...people don't want their children to be the victims of mass shootings at schools and movie theaters, so some laws are needed to keep us safe. Yeah...funny how that works.

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Response to Atman (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:37 AM

20. Actually

 

I am for all of our rights, not just the ones I agree or feel comfortable with.

IF you were truly "anti-ignorance," you would be able to see the hypocrisy of one who whines about others who ignore the loss of some of our 1st Amendment rights, while encouraging the taking of some of our 2nd Amendment rights.

IF it really is all about keeping us safe, then you should have no problem with those who advocate the taking of freedoms to protect us from bombings and mob violence. People don't want their children to be the victims of bombings in daycare or on airlines. They don't want their children to be victims of mob violence by protesters.

Of course, if you are all for 'free speech zones' and 'the Patriot Act,' then you are consistent in your argument for even more gun control.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:01 PM

22. What 2nd Amendment rights are being taken away?

Until you can answer that your entire point is moot.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:09 PM

23. Do you consider 'regulated' to be the same as "taken away?"

 

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Response to regjoe (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

25. You're the one who said "taken away".

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Response to regjoe (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

26. So, the 2nd Amendment "took away" weapons from militias?

And apparently, took 'em away well?

Huh?

No, of course "regulated" doesn't mean "taken away." The SCOTUS already ruled in Heller that you have the right own guns to protect yourself and your home, but that there was no language that prohibited the government from "regulating." Your right to bear arms shall not be infringed. "Infringed" and "regulated" don't mean the same things either. No one says you can't speak when they regulate the 1st Amendment. No one is proposing taking your guns away.

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Response to Atman (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:33 PM

30. Where does the "regulating" stop?

 

And why are your opinions of what is ok to strictly regulate, more valid than the opinions of others?

If "regulating" rights is perfectly ok, then "Free Speech Zones" should be the standard. Maybe, in order to prevent mob violence, protests should be limited to no more than 7, maybe 10, people?

BTW: I don't own any guns, so the 'No one is proposing taking your guns away' meme in order to discount the opposing view doesn't hold water.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:18 PM

29. You didn't understand my post, did you?

I can see the game you're playing. I spelled my case out pretty clearly, and you're just trying to do a tap dance and confuse the issues. I was very clear about my position on the 1st Amendment, and about the bullshit I always hear from the gun nutters that they need their guns in part to protect the 1st Amendment...but didn't take up those arms when the government actually DID come and take fundamental rights away.

The SCOTUS has already ruled on the 2nd Amendment and determined that it does NOT say that the government cannot regulate guns. It merely says you have the right to own some.

Have a nice day.

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Response to Atman (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:47 PM

31. LOL! Have a nice day? But of course

 

I am not playing any game and your "case" is flooded with hypocrisy.

How can you whine about the "gun nutters" not taking "up those arms when the government actually DID come and take fundamental rights away" on the 1st, while also encouraging government to do the same on the 2nd? As you said yourself, regulating your 1st Amendment rights with zones does not mean you cannot speak.

The anti-gun paranoids love to talk about how protests are more effective than guns, so why aren't you all out there protesting to protect the 2nd Amendment?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:56 AM

21. And 'People don't want to be a victim of a mass shooting, so the acts

that will reduce such occurances are needed to keep us safe'.

I'm down with that. Get 'em passed!

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

24. So you have no problem with

 

TSA? Wireless wiretapping? Free Speech Zones? Drone surveillance?

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Response to regjoe (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:16 PM

28. I have problems with laws that infringe on basic rights. Luckily most

gun laws aren't included in that line-up.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:48 PM

32. At least you are honest

 

Personally, I am against government violating free speech, freedom of assembly, privacy etc...

But, to each his own.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:51 PM

33. ??? Maybe you misread what I wrote?

"I have problems with laws that infringe on basic rights. Luckily most
gun laws aren't included in that line-up."

On edit:
I will add {laws that overly infringe} just to be sure we are not talking understandable measures like outlawing yelling fire, child porn, etc..

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:03 PM

34. No, I understood

 

For me, our 2nd Amendment right is also a "basic right" and infringing on it out of fear is no different than infringing on any of our other rights out of fear.
If people are ok with limiting or regulating how one right is exercised, they have no business complaining about how other rights are limited or regulated.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:30 PM

37. Ahh - got ya. The 2nd does indeed secure a right.

Not a basic right, but one derived from the community. Though the original intent is sort of obsolete what with a huge standing army and the creation of the National Guard, I did not see too many occasions where someone has passed laws infringing on our ability to serve in the Militia.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:44 PM

38. Get the Supreme Court

 

to agree with that minority opinion of its original intent, then have them re-interpret that meaning into new laws, and your point might have some merit.

Until then, accept that it is an individual right, just as it says, and that limiting or regulating it opens up other rights being limited and regulated in the same manner.

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Response to regjoe (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:26 PM

49. The point already has some merit because so many lawmakers agree with it.

Serious merit, otherwise these imminent bills would not even be considered let alone be passed like in NY.
The Supreme Court may indeed have the final say, but, if so, it may take a while for them to get there.

I do accept the 2nd secures an individual right to keep and bear arms, exactly as it says - int he preamble and the restriction. I have never held any other opinion. You can choose to argue over what THAT phrase means, or simply agree with the Supreme Court majority. I too tend to form my own opinions.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:47 PM

40. I've watched friends pretty much lose their minds over this

People I have known for years reposting crap from teabagger sites, militia sites, etc. I'm sad and really at a loss. They are behaving like birthers in their beliefs and no facts can change their minds. I've recently hid all fb posts from a long time dear friend who has gone off the deep end since Newtown.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:44 PM

51. Me too

Wish my recently hidden friends had more grief for the children killed then they do over their fear of gun regulation. Actually makes me sick that they don't.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:13 PM

53. Its begun to really chill me to the bone

There are not crackpots. These are people I've always had similar views with. If the propaganda can get to them.... sigh.

They honestly and deeply believe that the government is going to take away their right to bear arms. Not just regulation, they believe that this is the slippery slope to the government coming in and taking away their personal firearms. In my opinion any rational human being should know this is not the case.


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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:08 PM

52. Looks like the Usual Suspects

 

Flooded this thread with NRA Talking Point responses to lock up yet another gun control discussion.

Seems DU is infested these days.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:38 PM

64. They're not afraid of the second amendment being overturned-

Most of them are afraid they're going to have their guns confiscated because like a drunk or drug addict, they place greater value in their guns over even their families and friends and they're sure they'll be on a no-guns list because of their unstable mental health.
Normal gun owners do not view their guns as the only thing that protects them from the greater "outside" or makes them feel stronger (or more alpha) than everyone else around them. Normal gun owners don't fantasize about shooting ravening hoards of evil deviants and being the hero that saves the few "good" people left in their world amd try to force the world outside them to become what they want it to be.
Sure there's "bad guys". But even in "bad neighborhoods", those "bad guys" that most people who buy guns for protection from have a life of their own to live, and the chances of any one gun-owner running afoul of of that sort of criminal or threat even once in their lives is very small - there are far fewer potential assailants than there are people who go around armed against assault in this country at any time. And there are certainly far more abusers terrorizing their own otherwise beloved family members than there are potential assailants walking the streets looking for victims at any one moment in time. And many of those abusers use the very weapons they collect to "defend themselves" against those they supposedly love in that abuse.

Anyway, most of these types of posters are either blowing off steam (often saving family members from the brunt of their frustrated neurosis), or building themselves up a comforting fairy tale reality through the anonymity of the internet.

The few who mean it are the ones who really should think about learning how to deal with their overwhelming fear and self-doubt before they hurt a lot of innocent people when it builds up to be too much and they have to blame someone else for their pain and anger because they can't handle their own self-induced problems. And they really shouldn't have guns to increase the amount of damage they will do when that will happen.

Haele

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