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Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:01 PM

 

While the President dances, innocents mourn their dead, dead at the President's hand.

"These latest strikes in Yemen continue a noted escalation of US attacks that began near the end of 2012.

As Agence France-Presse reports, "Monday's raid brings to at least 25 the number of people killed in US drone strikes since such assaults were intensified on December 24."

As experts and human rights organizations continue to warn the Obama administration that such attacks are counterproductive—increasing, not lessening, al Qaeda's position in Yemen or elsewhere—the Washington Post's weekend report that the White House was "institutionalizing" the practice of assassination by drone with a new "playbook" was met with deep criticism."
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/01/21-3

And we wonder why people around the world hate us and want to attack us. Hell, if my loved ones were dying while the President danced, I'd be looking for revenge myself. These drone attacks, this endless War on Terra is counterproductive in establishing good relations with people around the world.

Hopefully this administration will come to its senses. Sadly, I don't think it will, which means sooner or later this will come back to bite us. Perhaps then we will finally learn this lesson that we've been learning and relearning for decades now.

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Reply While the President dances, innocents mourn their dead, dead at the President's hand. (Original post)
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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:09 PM

1. If the world hates us because President Obama is a fine dancer.....

 

I'm afraid that we are fucked, because he is a damned fine dancer.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:14 PM

3. No, the world hates us because the president continues to kill innocents abroad,

 

Has nothing to do with his dancing, just his death dealing.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:15 PM

5. "if my loved ones were dying while the President danced, I'd be looking for revenge myself."

I miss unrec

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

72. Me too

I miss unrec

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:09 AM

103. Posting here just to get this pic near the top of the thread...





Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:06 AM

143. I will second that.



With all due respect to the feelings of the OP, still I love to see them dancing. I do not believe Obama would kill a single innocent for evil reasons. So what is the answer? I don't know it.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #143)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:55 AM

334. Stop killing innocents

Start waging some law enforcement. We have the ability (and laws) to arrest these people and bring them either here, or the Hauge, for trial. We ought to try it some time.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #334)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:59 AM

336. Most of the time we're there at a government's request.

If police are requested to take down a gunfight and someone innocent gets killed, does that mean we never send police into armed conflicts again? Just wait and see who survives?

Granted, America should not be the world's police, but we are often requested to help where we can. And sometimes innocents get killed. Just as they did in Algeria.

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Response to randome (Reply #336)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:35 PM

359. When they start firing warheads from drones

When they start firing rockets from drones into your city, and it kill innocents, we'll see if you think this is justified.

MLK tried to teach us that the answer to violence is not greater violence, but less. We really ought to try arresting folks, instead of just killing them from the sky.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #359)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:49 PM

363. Now you're drifting into tinfoil hat territory.

If a President truly wanted to bomb U.S. cities, he or she can do so now. No drones are needed for that.

In general, I agree that less violence is the answer. But you cannot convince the likes of hardened terrorists to stop killing people and to stop maiming and killing their own women and children.

America is neither perfect nor consistent. But sometimes we do some good. Drone killings are not 'good' but in the long run, they stop even more people from being killed. It's a horrible calculation that only a Command-In-Chief must make.

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Response to randome (Reply #363)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:34 PM

376. Not the only way

Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it is "tin foil hat territory".

This nation, and other nations, have "arrested" these types of individuals before, and brought them to trial. We have/had an entire unit within the FBI that was tasked with finding them, and arranging for their arrest (occasionally without cooperation of the countries in which they were located). Bush abandonded any attempt at that and took the "war time" approach to avoid the US courts. Obama has doubled down on that.

And yes, it is his decision "alone", no one is forcing him to do this.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #376)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:22 PM

382. For the most part, I think I'll leave military decisions to the experts.

I don't believe you are an expert at law enforcement nor can you explain how the FBI might make their way into Yemen or Somalia to 'arrest' someone. Actually, the idea sounds ridiculous. These are places where arresting agents would get killed before they got more than a mile into the country, let alone reach some hidden, well-guarded fortress.

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Response to randome (Reply #382)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:20 PM

389. They got to Ossama

As someone pointed out, in many of these countries, we are being INVITED in. The Mossad went into many unfriendly countries to arrest people.

But of course, if you presume that an FBI team, formed to do exactly this, is incapable of doing it, then your only conclusion is that it is impossible. However, if you consider for a moment, that it is possible, then you are left with the problem that Obama is choosing not to do it.

That'd reallly rock your world wouldn't it. So you are forced to presume it is impossible.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #389)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:47 AM

409. In other words, you think the American government is killing people it could arrest because...

...it's fun? My world does not get rocked by facts, no matter where they originate. Offer some facts instead of imaginary fears and I'll listen.

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Response to randome (Reply #409)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:18 PM

410. Because it's easy

I think they do it because it is easier, and politically expedient to appear "strong". The previous administration chose war over law enforcement and the Obama administration has been afraid to deviate from this tactic for fear of appearing "weak". The meager efforts they made with the Gitmo detainees left them feeling "once burnt, twice shy". They've given up and just keep perpetuating the war mentality. Which is why the military is still in Afghanistan, and will be after this administration is over.

The world put the Lockerbee terrorist on trial. How's that fact?

And from 1989:

IV. Conclusion
This Office concludes that at the direction of the President or the Attorney General the FBI may
use its statutory authority under 28 U.S.C. § 533(1) and 18 U.S.C. § 3052 to investigate and
arrest individuals for violations of applicable United States law, even if those actions depart from
customary international law or unexecuted treaties. Moreover, we conclude that the President,
acting through the Attorney General, has inherent constitutional authority to deploy the FBI to
investigate and arrest individuals for violations of United States law, even if those actions
contravene international law. Finally, we conclude that an arrest that is inconsistent with
international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.
WILLIAM P. BARR
Assistant Attorney General

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #334)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:03 PM

365. I know the answer is to stop, but my question is why is it still happening

because I don't believe if it were up to Obama alone it
would continue.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #365)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:35 PM

377. Because Obama chooses to

There are other methods. Obama has chosen to not choose them.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #377)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:30 PM

380. I'm really trying to understand this, and not make excuses

EVER for droning death upon anyone.

I will never believe Obama's heart is at peace with
it either. He is a man with a conscience, & vision.

So why is it allowed?

What power does he hold, in fact, and what does
he know, and who is advising him, and what don't
we know, and why is it happening, and how does
he sleep, and how, in fact, can it all be stopped?

What is in the way of him ending it all?
He certainly isn't a warmonger, or imo a slave to
the military-industrial complex &/or financial
wheelydealies, ego fame and power. I don't see
him that way. He doesn't hate brown skinned
children or believe their lives are worthless.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #380)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:17 PM

388. The bubble

Well, if you are entering the discussion on the assumption that he is flawless, then yes, he had no other choice. There is no other conclusion.

Of course the other possibility is that he had choices, and chose to kill instead of arrest. Kind of like he chose to defend the torturers, and continue to detain the tortured.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #388)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:22 AM

400. He is reading 'top secret' PDBs on a daily basis that he doesn't 'produce' himself

We don't know what horrible 'bloody' (or not) BS is printed in there, do we?

So The Bubble may or may not be what we speculate it *could* be, IMHO.

We don't know.

But we know this President must be aging ten fold having to make 'choices' he can't really have any 'control' over.

It's either that choice or another, and what do we know about any of these choices?

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Response to Amonester (Reply #400)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:39 AM

408. Bush II

We all seemed to know pretty well when we discussed Bush's choices. He lied us into war remember?

I'm not sure how one doesn't have control over their own choices.

He's choosing war over law enforcement.

He went to the Nobel committee and defended wars of choice.

That's who he is.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:35 AM

189. Gorgeous pic, Sid. Thanks for posting the dancing photo. nt

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #189)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:20 AM

226. 226 Replies, only 16 recs. I guess that says it all.

The President's first job is to keep us safe.

Remember the color coded danger signs? Obama didn't start this danger but he needs to deal with it.

I'd rather drones than boots on the ground.

I trust this President and that means he has to be good, not perfect.

And he's more that just "good" to me.

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Response to louis c (Reply #226)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:38 AM

233. That's the kicker though,

 

Continued killing of innocents is just creating more and more radicalized people who hate the US and want revenge on us. That is not keeping us safe, that is just setting us up for another 911 event.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #233)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:54 AM

240. With boots on the ground, both American lives and innocent Yemenis will be killed.

It's a sad fact of war or whatever the hell we call this.

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Response to randome (Reply #240)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:02 AM

241. How about doing neither,

 

No drone strikes, no boots on the ground. If we wanted to go after bin Laden, a surgical strike would have be much more preferable.

But with drone strikes radicalizing thousands in the area, sooner or later we're going to suffer from the blowback of our follies, and thus put boots on the ground in Yemen and elsewhere.

This is a moral lesson that we've been failing to learn for years. I suggest that you read The Ugly American in order to see just how long it has been going on, and the solution to the problem.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #241)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:24 AM

250. Drone strikes are pretty much considered 'surgical strikes'.

Ready. Aim. Fire. Leave the area.

I don't want anyone killed. There or here. But sitting on the sidelines while Al-Queda and other organizations and governments kill and maim their own citizens is not a good choice, either, IMO.

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Response to randome (Reply #250)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:30 AM

251. Umm, don't you get it?

 

Drone strikes and our own meddling are what is creating these radicals who are now turning to al Qaeda, namely because it is the biggest, baddest organization on the block currently who is fighting back against the US.

As far as surgical strikes, blowing up an area that has a four or five block radius is not surgical. Surgical is sending in Seal Team 6 to take out one or two individuals, something that Obama finally, thankfully did, something that Bush should have done, but chose to rain down war instead. Now that we've got bin Laden, why are we still in Afghanistan? Al Qaeda is wiped from the area, OBL is dead, why are we there?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #251)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:41 AM

254. Google it. Al-Qaeda is in Yemen, too.

We are nearly out of Afghanistan. It wasn't Obama's decision to be there but pulling out without making the country secure would be a bad option, also.

The solution is to let Al-Qaeda grow strong enough to terrorize more countries? It's a bad situation all around but Obama doesn't seem to be invading countries to try to impress his father or to solidify his political party. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt.

Raising questions is important but Obama seems to me to be handling matters fine.

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Response to randome (Reply #254)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:20 AM

264. I guess you haven't seen the status of forces agreement that Obama and Kharzi recently signed,

 

We've basically signed up to have ten thousand troops or more in country in Afghanistan until 2024.

Oh, and why is al Qaeda growing in Yemen? Because we're killing innocents with drone strikes. Nothing like having a friend or relative killed for no good reason to radicalize a person in order to take revenge.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #251)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:45 AM

256. Here is some of what Al-Qaeda is up to in Yemen.

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Response to randome (Reply #256)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:22 AM

267. Such actions are, unfortuneately, far too common around the world,

 

Are you suggesting, by your logic, that we should be launching drones strikes on every single continent around the world?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #267)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:25 AM

305. Not at all. America is neither perfect nor consistent.

But do you see anything 'wrong' with trying to put a stop to these atrocities? I don't. At least we're doing SOMETHING.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:23 AM

249. Lovely shot, Sid. Thanks for posting it!

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #103)


Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:16 PM

7. The world doesn't really hate us. At least not most of it.

I travel often.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:19 PM

10. Large parts of it do,

 

And with more and more drone strikes, the number is getting larger.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:27 PM

32. I'm sure the ones who don't....

....you "instruct" on how wrong they are, huh?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:09 AM

146. a lot of the world does love this president. Still he's just one man. I think he is doing his best.

he asks you to challenge him.

He reminds people of something good and real.

"yes I can even when it's hard" and this is no small thing.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:59 AM

184. Nah. That part of the world has always hated us and will always hate us.

It doesn't matter one bit what we do or don't do.

What we need to do is what is best for our country and our allies and innocent people killed and maimed by lunatic terrorists. What exactly we need to do is up for discussion and for more informed minds than mine, though.

The drones must be effective, or they wouldn't still be done. It is a problem, though, and I suspect we'll look back on these days and realize it was too much. The idea was supposed to be laser like precision, but it's getting to be less and less of that, it seems.

But we don't know the whole story of Yemen. We don't know who they were after. It may be a difference of opinion, too. When a terrorist hides behind a woman's skirts, and the terrorist is one bad dude who you know will kill innocent women and children for his supposed cause, do you kill the woman to kill the terrorist, thereby saving many more? People differ on that opinion.

One solution: Yemen can get those terrorists the heck out of their country. Problem solved. AQ is there with the approval of the govt, I believe.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:11 AM

221. Parts of the world have hated the US a lot longer than President Obama's administration

I know. I grew up abroad.

But if you're part of a group who has vowed to kill Americans and has actually done so, you should expect to be killed. And if you want to compare collateral damage done by Drones to the massacres carried out by Bush's wars go ahead.

What would you do? Seriously. What would you do?

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

21. 75% in Pakistan and Yemen. I think the opinions of people that we are terrorizing

are important.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:26 PM

28. OP didn't say Pakistan and Yemen, he said "the world" and he is not right. nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #28)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:28 PM

37. Nope, he said "around the world". And he is right.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:30 PM

40. No, he is not right. Do I need to start posting links to stats? nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:39 PM

59. Around the world does not mean the entire world. And that is that.

It doesn't even mean the majority of the world. Growing up, I often heard that the Soviet Union had influence around the world. Even as a child I grasped that it did not have influence over the majority of the world.

The characterization is correct, there are people in countries around the world that hate us.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:41 PM

63. He did not say around the world, he said "The World Hates Us" Why would you blatantly say something

untrue? The post is there for all to read. Post #3

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:46 PM

77. Ah, I was referencing the OP (I missed #3).


And we wonder why people around the world hate us and want to attack us. Hell, if my loved ones were dying while the President danced, I'd be looking for revenge myself. These drone attacks, this endless War on Terra is counterproductive in establishing good relations with people around the world.


Which, of course, is accurate.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

70. Yes, "there are people in countries around the world that hate us".

I think we can all agree on that piece of info.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #70)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:48 PM

80. The people who we terrorize on a regular basis hate us. MLK on Vietnam

Perhaps the more difficult but no less necessary task is to speak for those who have been designated as our enemies. What of the National Liberation Front — that strangely anonymous group we call VC or Communists? What must they think of us in America when they realize that we permitted the repression and cruelty of Diem which helped to bring them into being as a resistance group in the south? What do they think of our condoning the violence which led to their own taking up of arms? How can they believe in our integrity when now we speak of “aggression from the north” as if there were nothing more essential to the war? How can they trust us when now we charge them with violence after the murderous reign of Diem and charge them with violence while we pour every new weapon of death into their land? Surely we must understand their feelings even if we do not condone their actions. Surely we must see that the men we supported pressed them to their violence. Surely we must see that our own computerized plans of destruction simply dwarf their greatest acts.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/01/20/a-time-comes-when-silence-is-betrayal/

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:11 AM

243. Look at post #3

Quoting: The world hates us. No, it doesn't and in resorting to hyperbole, he/she lost any credibility on the subject.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:33 AM

124. Get rid of all your guns, then we'll talk. Or register them if that becomes law.

Do you have any high capacity magazines? How many and how many rounds do they hold? Do any gunsmithing? What kind? Reloading? What about assault weapons like the Tec-9? Ever had one of those? That's the worst damn weapon ever made as far as I'm concerned. Cheap damn piece of shit that'll go full auto just from wear and tear. And surprise the fucking hell out of the dipshit firing it when it does. And kill people.

Now, I read your post saying you won't register your weapons. I am sick of the violence right here in the United States. Clean up your own house.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:38 AM

128. Have I killed anybody with my guns? No.

 

But the President has killed hundreds and thousands of innocents with drone strikes. Didn't you condemn those self same drone strikes when Bush was ordering them into the air? As I recall, you and a lot of other people around here did. So what changed?

Oh, yeah, that letter behind the President's name, from an R to a D.

Hypocrisy much?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #128)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:52 AM

135. Dude, I don't know you from Adam.

You claim you're a peace-loving guy (who just happens to be armed to the teeth). I see a contradiction there. Your long post about not registering your weapons did not fit with the rest of the stuff you spout. Not at all. It didn't sound like it belonged on DU at all. Even the gungeon folks say they'll obey the law on guns. You? Not so much. So, I made my mind up about you. It was pretty easy. The fact that you're here, trying to spoil inauguration night only makes it clearer. Have fun with your guns. Better keep an eye out, just in case the gubmint tries to take 'em from you.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #135)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:57 AM

137. Funny thing about that post,

 

It did a double back flip right over your head, and a lot of others. You just didn't get the point I was trying to make at all, light did not dawn over Rock Mountain. A few people got it, like Nutmeg Yankee, but not many. Oh well.

But the real funny thing is, here you are, trying to conflate a post that you absolutely have no clue about with the issue of drone strikes. Talk about something not fitting, there it is.

But hey, what ever eases your conscience, makes you forget your hypocrisy.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #137)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:59 AM

140. hahaha.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #135)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:16 AM

403. Ahhh, the final piece of the puzzle. Thank You DevonRex!!!!!

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #403)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:22 AM

404. You're quite welcome!

Amazing how one bit of information makes everything make sense.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #404)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:38 AM

406. It does indeed.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:48 AM

176. I just love....

how you are absolutely certain that "innocents" were killed...as if you were there in person to verify it. Is that you, Glen Glenwald?

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Response to ShadesOfBlue (Reply #176)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:53 AM

181. Here, don't believe me, then perhaps you will believe the UN

 

"A UN investigator has called on the Obama administration to justify its policy of assassinating rather than capturing al-Qaeda or Taliban suspects, increasingly with the use of unmanned drone aircraft that also take civilian lives."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0619/breaking17.html

It is a well know fact around the world that our drone strikes are killing hundreds and thousands of innocents, sometimes as collateral damage, sometimes due to mistargeting. But they are being killed all the same. The only place that this "secret" isn't widely known is right here in the US.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #181)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:47 AM

194. "our drone strikes are killing hundreds and thousands of innocents"?

Links to this "well known fact", please.

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Response to Turborama (Reply #194)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:38 AM

210. Here,

 

http://tribune.com.pk/story/228690/exclusive-a-drone-strike-every-four-days-under-obama/

That doesn't count the drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere, just those in Pakistan. Oh, and it only goes through last August, there have been approximately 40 more strikes since then.

There are some estimates that put the ratio of civilians killed to terrorists killed at 50:1. I let you do the math for that one.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/16949/predator-drone-strikes-50-civilians-are-killed-for-every-1-terrorist-and-the-cia-only-wants-to-up-drone-warfare

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Response to MadHound (Reply #210)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:01 AM

216. Nothing like hundreds of thousands, or even 10s of thousands

Maybe not a thousand. Could even be dozens.

Your hundreds of thousands seriously diminishes your argument, if you want to try and get people to wake up to what it is you are so upset about.

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Response to Turborama (Reply #216)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:08 AM

219. Please go back and reread my post for comprehension this time instead of the quick snark,

 

My statement was "hundreds and thousands", not "hundreds of thousands".

Given that my link showed over 2,100 dead innocents in Pakistan alone, I would say that my statement is accurate.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #219)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:13 AM

223. My mistake. However, it's either hundreds or thousands

Your link goes to a questionable source. Got anything more objective?

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Response to Turborama (Reply #223)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:26 AM

229. Well, if you want to get into an argument about semantics,

 

Hundreds and thousands is correct statement, especially since I consider it to be using rhetorical license.

As far as my source goes, it is based off a report by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a very well known and respected source, just like the International Tribune is itself well known and well respected. I don't see what your complaint is with it.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #219)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:30 AM

230. "hundreds and thousands" doesn't mean anything

thank you for clarifying

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:07 AM

242. The world does not hate us

Some people, sure, but if you think you're speaking for even a majority, you couldn't be more wrong. And frankly, I think you could have waited one day before posting this. One day where we get to enjoy the fact the Romney's weren't the ones dancing.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #242)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:18 AM

245. Well, large parts of it do,

 

From the 911 Commission report of 2003.
"The United States is heavily engaged in the Muslim world and will be for many years to come. This American engagement is resented. Polls in 2002 found that among America's friends, like Egypt-the recipient of more U.S. aid for the past 20 years than any other Muslim country-only 15 percent of the population had a favorable opinion of the United States. In Saudi Arabia the number was 12 percent. And two-thirds of those surveyed in 2003 in countries from Indonesia to Turkey (a NATO ally) were very or somewhat fearful that the United States may attack them.23

Support for the United States has plummeted. Polls taken in Islamic countries after 9/11 suggested that many or most people thought the United States was doing the right thing in its fight against terrorism; few people saw popular support for al Qaeda; half of those surveyed said that ordinary people had a favorable view of the United States. By 2003, polls showed that "the bottom has fallen out of support for America in most of the Muslim world. Negative views of the U.S. among Muslims, which had been largely limited to countries in the Middle East, have spread.. . . Since last summer, favorable ratings for the U.S. have fallen from 61% to 15% in Indonesia and from 71% to 38% among Muslims in Nigeria."
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch12.htm

And that is from over eight years ago, well before drones and horror of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan took hold. Since then, things have gotten much worse.

As far as posting it on the evening of inaugural day, sorry to disturb your beautiful mind. How much more disturbed are the minds of relatives of those innocent victims, the people who have to bury their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, and who, once their mourning is done, will turn their rage and anger against us.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #245)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:38 AM

252. No - they don't

ONE part of the world has some that hate us. And they hated us long before drone strikes. That's why your hyperbolic headline is such a joke. That your timing is also repellent is another story. Or perhaps you would have preferred to see the Romney's dancing.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #252)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:15 AM

261. No, not just one part,

 

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Response to MadHound (Reply #261)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:44 AM

280. Before I click on an unfamiliar site

What can you tell me about it. Looks like someone's blog. Yours?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:57 AM

317. MAD PROPS! on the timing of this OP...

You get all the attention needed yet?

LOL

My biggest bitch about the inaguration is they didn't dance to Club Villian -




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Response to snooper2 (Reply #317)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:54 AM

333. I don't get it.

That's She-Hulk and Doctor Doom. Where do the Martians come into it?

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Response to randome (Reply #333)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

345. you mean the name of the band?


&list=PL64EC6401B56A36B7&index=3

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #345)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:15 PM

348. Sorry, I can't watch videos at work. I was just going by the caption.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:22 PM

16. I wasn't aware he killed anybody, either

I can't take the OP's hysterical language seriously.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:41 PM

62. Well, now you are, it's all there in black and white.

 

Can you at least take the deaths of innocents seriously?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:13 PM

2. How dare he dance at the inaugural ball!1!

Just like fucking Bush would do, damn fascist!1!

Seriously dude?

Julie--who wonders why you punish yourself by coming to DU where there tend to be a lot of Democrats

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:16 PM

6. Funny, not only does Obama dance at the inaugural ball like Bush did,

 

But he is killing innocents abroad, just like Bush did.

Sad, I remember a time when members of DU, and Democrats in general, condemned such executions. Now with a president in office who has a D behind his name, not so much. Why is that? Why does that D make such a big difference?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:14 AM

106. People are blind to what their team does.


They'll make rationalization for atrocities that a few years ago they would openly condemn.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:23 AM

228. Oh look! More bullshit!

Lots of Dems are unhappy about the drone program. We just don't harp on it all the time at there are, believe it or not, lots of other things going on in the world.

Personally I've written letters on the issue and joined a local protest. And yet, here I am able to celebrate Obama getting 4 more years. The good far outweighs the bad and we can work together to try and stop the bad.

Of course for some ""working" on anything political simply means harping endlessly on anything and everything you don't like.

So again I ask you (will we see an answer this time??), why do you punish yourself by being so very, very active on a discussion board for Democrats?

Julie

On edit: Look! A pic of some of those rec'ing this dreck!

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #228)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:41 AM

234. 16 members have rec'd it after currently 3,491 views

What percent of 200,000 is 16?

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #228)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:44 AM

235. Well gee, "harping" on an issue is the only way that we the people can change policy,

 

I suppose you were upset with all those people who "harped" about ending the war in Vietnam as well. How dare they protest at the Democratic convention, the LBJ inaugural, or for that matter, the genesis of this very board, the inaugural of Bush.

And it's really classy of you to accuse well known DUer's of being sock puppets. I won't alert on this post of yours, because I believe a poster should have their foolishness left for everybody to see, but don't be surprised if somebody does alert on it sooner or later, since it does violate the TOS.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:14 PM

4. Unrec. n/t

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:45 PM

73. +1

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:18 PM

8. And on cue....

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:28 PM

36. It's not nice to steal others people bandwidth.

 

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:19 PM

9. Can't we be allowed to have Just. One. Day.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:21 PM

11. Apparently not

We couldn't even have one morning really

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:21 PM

12. Death never rests apparently,

 

At least not for this administration.

Sorry to disturb your beautiful mind with unwelcome thoughts like innocents dead today at the hands of this administration.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:19 AM

246. Do you really think quoting

Barbara Bush is the way to go here? I think the fact you couldn't wait one freeking day before posting this shows everyone what they need to know about you. And it's not that you care oh so much about the dead (while implying the rest of us dont).

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #246)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:22 AM

248. Perhaps Obama could have waited one freaking day before killing more innocents,

 

Then everybody could have had a nice day. As it is, dozens of friends and relatives, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, are mourning the deaths of innocents while the man who ordered the strikes danced at his inaugural ball.

Yeah, death is a big fucking deal. Don't like hearing about, then join me in trying to get the drone policy stopped.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #248)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:40 AM

253. Or I could just put you on ignore

for the implication that only you, the oh so brave anonymous poster on DU, is the only thing standing between us and our souls dying.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #253)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:17 AM

262. You may do so if you wish,

 

No skin off my nose if you want to keep the purity of your beautiful mind intact.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #262)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:45 AM

282. Tis what I do

with assholes. Ta ta.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #248)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:12 AM

260. Hey! It's the "I have tons of guns!" guy.

Ironic.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:22 PM

15. +1

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

20. MadHound always intends to disrupt and hurt his fellow DUers. thats his game.

Always. Every single time.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:31 PM

42. Odd, MadHound's posts don't bother me any more than they did when Dubya was resident


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:41 PM

61. Consistency is now a sign of lunacy.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:43 PM

65. I think they only bother those that live in very carefully crafted denial bubbles. nm

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:55 PM

88. "disrupt and hurt his fellow DUers."


As long as MadHound keeps it clean and brings up legitimate ideas which make others think I don't see any problems or issues with it.

If MH calls the POTUS a Kenyan then that would be just silly, but if MH points to a policy where innocents die at the hands of the USA then we should all feel hurt for the dead.

If it disrupts some from enjoying a dance then perhaps they will have to think about the why and not so much the deliverer of such news.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:19 AM

113. I'd have to agree with that. it's psychological warfare. No solutions, either.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:37 AM

127. Yeah. Gunowner, too, who said he'd break the law and refuse to register his weapons

if that were to be enacted. Yet holier than thou on this night. Very strange if you ask me.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #127)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:51 AM

132. Libertarian 2A disruption, Devon. Only here because of the Meta thread.

The perfect candidate for such folks was Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. Most of the Freepers are going Libertarian, Hedges and Taibbi are already.

Their hostility to Democrats and Obama is worse than teabaggers but the energy is exactly the same. They are the left wing baggers. Yes, there are plenty of them.

Tim Wise did a piece on the anti-Obama anti-war crowd. It fits. Ever see these kind of threads go into traditional Democratic issues, civil rights for people here? Ever see anything but criticism and calling names, painting the worst visions and never a solution offered, just the almost apocalyptical, jump off the cliff and kill yourself now hysteria?

I don't care for this kind of stuff.


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Response to freshwest (Reply #132)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:58 AM

138. Thank you.

It fits perfectly. I'm gonna spend some time with your post later. It reminded me of a few threads where I couldn't believe some people didn't get feminist issues. Like they had a complete lack of understanding. But they were supposedly so fricking "Liberal" on other things. I think they fit in your scenario.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #127)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:02 PM

337. +1 n/t

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

22. Nah

That'd be too normal.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:25 PM

25. Is that a quote from a Pakistani villager?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:49 AM

199. One day without innocents dying at our hands?

Probably not.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:21 PM

13. Epic Douchebaggery Fail

Yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:25 PM

27. +1. Double thumbs down

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Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:42 PM

64. +2 I dislike the word "douchbaggery" but hell, when it's apt, it's apt

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Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:47 PM

78. Please see my post in this thread regarding 168 Pakistani children killed by US drones.

 

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Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:46 AM

130. yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:37 PM

395. Douchebaggery indeed!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:22 PM

14. He shouldn't have danced.

He should have sung, instead. He's really good at it.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

23. No, he should stop killing innocents abroad,

 

That's all I care about, he can sing and dance or do whatever the hell he wants to at his inaugural ball, just so long as he stops the killing.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:24 PM

24. He wasn't killing anybody. He was dancing. I saw him.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:26 PM

30. It is by his order that those drones fly,

 

He is, after all, the Commander in Chief, and don't forget, he has his own personal kill list, updated weekly.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:28 PM

34. Oh, that must have been what he was doing

when he was texting during the parade. There's an app for that.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:56 PM

92. There's an app for glib?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #92)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:58 PM

94. Yes, of course. It's even better than Yelp.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:08 AM

102. Perhaps you are an expert at it?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #102)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:09 AM

104. Not at all, that's why it's so great that there's an app.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #104)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:17 AM

110. Dang, you're good.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:49 AM

200. Maybe he should stop the murder of children.

He is the one pulling the trigger.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:22 PM

17. You're right, of course.



We need to decide that we will not go to war, whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians or the media, because war in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, a war against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times.

-Howard Zinn

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

18. The drone strikes would probably end if the terrorist gave themselves up but i dont see it happening

And while NRA thanks itself for the increase in sales are dying at the hands of irresponsible gun owners. We are losing more to gunshot wounds than the drones are killing.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:25 PM

26. That is one of the more inane comparisons I've seen in a long time.

 

Oh, and it isn't just terrorists he is killing, most of them are simply people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like that sixteen year old American citizen, among many, many others.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:36 PM

54. And you are saying 26 people, American citizens, 20 6 to 7 years old is not something.

They was shot down without compassion. Gabby Giffords was meeting with her constituents and innocent people was killed and injured and this means nothing to you. The coward terrorist try to hide in crowds thinking this is their protection from drone hits, it is in their plan of protection. We have had loss of lives in Algiers and it does nit mean anything. Yes I will continue to compare the attacks on American citizens just as you have.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:46 PM

75. You are trying to falsely conflate two issues, gun violence and drone attacks,

 

One is domestic policy, one is foreign policy. Please, stay on topic.

Oh, and where was that "cowardly terrorist" in the house full of kids that was blown sky high? Where was that "cowardly terrorist" in those wedding parties that were blown to hell?

Spare me your speeches, you're staring to sound like Bush.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:49 AM

285. Terrorist is terrorist and it does not matter where this occurs.

The terrorist targeted in the drone strikes wants to attack American citizens. So staying on subject means looking the whole picture. One of the duties of a president is protecting American citizens. We have had too many citizens attacked and this must stop. You complain about one 16 year old American citizen killed, you think the mass killings in the past few months is any easier on the families than the family of the 16 year old? If killing is your subject I am on subject. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #285)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:30 PM

384. If a "terrorist is a terrorist" . . .

. . . then why not, the next time there is a known mass murderer on the loose, unleash domestic drone strikes? Conflating acts of crime, how ever horrific, with acts of terrorism can lead to some really bad unintended consequences.

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #384)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:02 PM

390. Can't reason with a troll, you just continue to argue with yourself, have fun

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #390)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:25 PM

391. Excuse me, but I am no troll...

... I merely pointed out a flaw in your argument. Look, I voted, and worked for, the Obama campaign. But I think this entire issue of drones represents a serious moral blind spot for many Democrats, and I, for one, refuse to participate in a whitewash.

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #391)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:30 PM

392. I hate to inform you of this, but in the eyes of some around here you are a troll,

 

You're a troll, I'm a troll, anybody who dares to criticize the president's policies, even if they were policies that were once criticized under Bush, is a troll.

But hey, if you stay consistent in your beliefs and principles, the next time a 'Pug is in office, advocating the very same policies, you will no longer be a troll.

Funny what a difference a little letter behind the president's name makes to some folks.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #392)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:33 PM

393. So I've noticed n/t

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Response to MadHound (Reply #392)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:45 PM

399. I have not denied Obama's policies so again you are wrong. I was pointing out American citizens are

being attacked and killed by American terrorists. How much different is the loss of life? None. One of the presidents responsibility is to protect the citizens. Terrorists are interested in killing and attacking Americans, if information is available to prevent these events then we must take action. There has been some 4000 American troops have died in Iraq and 3100 American troops have died in Afghanistan
and all I hear from you is one 16 year old American. Again trolls

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Response to MadHound (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:18 AM

111. MadHound, I couldn't agree with you more...

It never fucking fails - Bush was condemned vociferously by DUers for these crimes, but now that it's Obama committing them, many here either excuse his actions or deny that they are even occurring. The hypocrisy is mindboggling.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:07 AM

101. If the terrorist gave themselves up.


When one of our drones kills children, family members, innocents are we not all then representative of terror?

We grieve over the Sandy Brook or Aurora shootings, but we lend a cold eye to those that get caught in our cross-hairs?

This is not a game where we count ours more dear, those who fall in gun-related tragedies, than those that die by our military.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:50 AM

201. It can't happne because we make up who is a terrorist.

And apparently there are a lot of them under four foot tall.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:23 PM

19. ...



ETA:

Sid

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:26 PM

29. Is this a post about

"While the President dances, innocents mourn their dead, dead at the President's hand."

...eleventh dimension chess?

I give it a 10 for shock value.

I give it an F for fucking ridiculous.

Seriously?




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Response to ProSense (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:27 PM

33. +1

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Response to ProSense (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:28 PM

35. No, it's a post about innocents dying at the orders of the president,

 

I remember there was a time when even you condemned such murder, but of course that was back when the president had an R behind his name. Now that the president has a D behind his name, you just laugh.

Sad, truly sad.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:32 PM

43. What is truly sad is your suggestions that President Obama ORDERED the murder of innocents.

Sad and preposterous.

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Response to elleng (Reply #43)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:49 PM

82. He is the CinC, he does have his own personal kill list, he does give the orders,

 

The blood is on his hands. Just like it is on the hands of Bush when he was doing the very same thing.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #82)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:55 PM

89. Yes, and his 'kill list' does not include innocents.

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Response to elleng (Reply #89)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:21 AM

115. And the military is sloppy while the higher-ups ignore it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/the-guilty-conscience-of-a-drone-pilot-who-killed-a-child/266453/

There was a flat-roofed house made of mud, with a shed used to hold goats in the crosshairs .... When he received the order to fire, he pressed a button with his left hand and marked the roof with a laser. The pilot sitting next to him pressed the trigger on a joystick, causing the drone to launch a Hellfire missile. There were 16 seconds left until impact... With seven seconds left to go, there was no one to be seen on the ground. Bryant could still have diverted the missile at that point. Then it was down to three seconds. Bryant felt as if he had to count each individual pixel on the monitor. Suddenly a child walked around the corner, he says. Second zero was the moment in which Bryant's digital world collided with the real one in a village between Baghlan and Mazar-e-Sharif. Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach. "Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.

"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?


The United States kills a lot of "dogs on two legs." The Bureau of Investigative Journalism reported last August that in Pakistan's tribal areas alone, there are at least 168 credible reports of children being killed in drone strikes.



How many Sandy Brooks is that?

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Response to elleng (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:19 AM

224. Well that is a direct and known consequence of the drone wars.


The study by Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html

Now you could have a valid point that the rhetoric of the op is overblown and the timing was intended to put a turd in the inaugural punchbowl, all fair points. But the substantive complaint of the op, that this deliberate policy is well known to cause a large number of civilian casualties, that is not debatable. Obama ordered these strikes. The consequences were understood when those orders were issued and are now publicly known as the policies continue. You could make a valid argument that the civilian casualties are acceptable, I would disagree, but that would be an honest response. Claiming ignorance, asserting no responsibility, not credible, not honest.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #224)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:45 PM

374. 'Casualties' is not murder.

Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

The language is deliberately provocative, and unfortunately moves the discussion from where it should be, for example to Stanford, NYU's, and your suggestions, to a foolish flame war at DU.

Civilian casualties are never 'acceptable,' but are unfortunately a consequence of war, drone or not. War and Peace, that we should be able to discuss with civility here at DU.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:43 PM

67. Yeah the those poor dead members of Al Qaeda.

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #67)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:46 PM

74. Please see my post in this thread regarding 168 dead Pakistani children due to US drones.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:55 PM

91. when you start thread about death of innocents it shouldn't link to this story



Two US drone strikes targeting a vehicle killed two suspected Al-Qaeda militants in Yemen on Monday, tribal sources said, in the second such assault on the jihadist network in three days.

The attack was carried out northeast of Sanaa on a vehicle carrying five members of the group, the sources said, adding that three had managed to flee.

"Two Al-Qaeda militants were killed in two drone strikes that targeted their vehicle" in Nakhla, a town 140 kilometres (87 miles) northeast of Sanaa, one source said.

The militants were travelling between the provinces of Marib, an Al-Qaeda stronghold, and Al-Jawf, when their vehicle was hit. Those killed were identified as Qasem Naser Tuaiman and Ali Saleh Tuaiman.

The two had been in a prison a year ago for joining Al-Qaeda but on their release headed to the southern province of Abyan where they joined jihadists fighting the army, the sources added.

http://www.france24.com/en/20130121-us-drone-strikes-qaeda-yemen-kill-two

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:27 PM

31. Your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries!

I'm not being sucked in by this bullshit today.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:29 PM

38. No, but when it is a president with an R behind his name, then you'll give a damn,

 

Hypocrisy much?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:32 PM

44. Read post #39 and come back tomorrow.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:35 PM

49. Ah, so when the questions get tough, you want me to just go away,

 

Sorry, not happening.

Gee, didn't you condemn Bush when he was killing innocents with drones? What changed your mind? That little letter behind the president's name?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #49)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:00 AM

97. Your question isn't tough. I simply am not in the mood. Didn't I already say that?

Hasta manana

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Response to MadHound (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:26 AM

120. I supported Bush killing terrorists too

Terrorists kill people. If we can get them first, we save lives. I blame the terrorists for those innocents dying, not Obama, or Bush, who were protecting us.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:30 PM

39. "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time."

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:31 PM

41. I kind of feel sorry for you. n/t

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Response to countingbluecars (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:33 PM

45. I'd rather you felt sorry, or just gave a simple damn, for the innocents that have been killed

 

In our name.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:35 PM

50. Can't you take one day off

to look at the good that this President has done?

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Response to countingbluecars (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:37 PM

55. The OP hates the President

So, no, they won't. Bad day for them today.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:22 AM

266. Hates the president but

loves his precious guns...

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Response to countingbluecars (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:57 AM

136. Apparently not

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:34 PM

46. It is good to reflect on this MLK anti-war speech in which he empathized with innocents

and those not so innocent.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/01/20/a-time-comes-when-silence-is-betrayal/

The only change came from America as we increased our troop commitments in support of governments which were singularly corrupt, inept and without popular support. All the while the people read our leaflets and received regular promises of peace and democracy — and land reform. Now they languish under our bombs and consider us — not their fellow Vietnamese –the real enemy. They move sadly and apathetically as we herd them off the land of their fathers into concentration camps where minimal social needs are rarely met. They know they must move or be destroyed by our bombs. So they go — primarily women and children and the aged.

They watch as we poison their water, as we kill a million acres of their crops. They must weep as the bulldozers roar through their areas preparing to destroy the precious trees. They wander into the hospitals, with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one “Vietcong”-inflicted injury. So far we may have killed a million of them — mostly children. They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like animals. They see the children, degraded by our soldiers as they beg for food. They see the children selling their sisters to our soldiers, soliciting for their mothers.

What do the peasants think as we ally ourselves with the landlords and as we refuse to put any action into our many words concerning land reform? What do they think as we test our latest weapons on them, just as the Germans tested out new medicine and new tortures in the concentration camps of Europe? Where are the roots of the independent Vietnam we claim to be building? Is it among these voiceless ones?

We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village. We have destroyed their land and their crops. We have cooperated in the crushing of the nation’s only non-Communist revolutionary political force — the unified Buddhist church. We have supported the enemies of the peasants of Saigon. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men. What liberators?

Now there is little left to build on — save bitterness. Soon the only solid physical foundations remaining will be found at our military bases and in the concrete of the concentration camps we call fortified hamlets. The peasants may well wonder if we plan to build our new Vietnam on such grounds as these? Could we blame them for such thoughts? We must speak for them and raise the questions they cannot raise. These too are our brothers.

Perhaps the more difficult but no less necessary task is to speak for those who have been designated as our enemies. What of the National Liberation Front — that strangely anonymous group we call VC or Communists? What must they think of us in America when they realize that we permitted the repression and cruelty of Diem which helped to bring them into being as a resistance group in the south? What do they think of our condoning the violence which led to their own taking up of arms? How can they believe in our integrity when now we speak of “aggression from the north” as if there were nothing more essential to the war? How can they trust us when now we charge them with violence after the murderous reign of Diem and charge them with violence while we pour every new weapon of death into their land? Surely we must understand their feelings even if we do not condone their actions. Surely we must see that the men we supported pressed them to their violence. Surely we must see that our own computerized plans of destruction simply dwarf their greatest acts.

How do they judge us when our officials know that their membership is less than twenty-five percent Communist and yet insist on giving them the blanket name? What must they be thinking when they know that we are aware of their control of major sections of Vietnam and yet we appear ready to allow national elections in which this highly organized political parallel government will have no part? They ask how we can speak of free elections when the Saigon press is censored and controlled by the military junta. And they are surely right to wonder what kind of new government we plan to help form without them — the only party in real touch with the peasants. They question our political goals and they deny the reality of a peace settlement from which they will be excluded. Their questions are frighteningly relevant. Is our nation planning to build on political myth again and then shore it up with the power of new violence?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:34 PM

47. You're right. Bring the drones home and send in more troops.

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Response to jillan (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:36 PM

53. How about we conduct a foreign policy that isn't based on killing first?

 

Then we wouldn't have the need for drones or troops.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:38 PM

57. There is one, but

you're not interested in it.

President Obama puts his stamp on global development (foreign policy isn't war)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022223604

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Response to ProSense (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:53 PM

85. Actions speak louder than words

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/17/us-drone-strikes-pakistan-waziristan

And that's just in Pakistan, not counting the dead innocents in Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:55 PM

90. Action

President Obama puts his stamp on global development (foreign policy isn't war)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022223604

Again, you appear uninterested.

Your response is to post an article from 2011?

Silliness.



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Response to MadHound (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:22 AM

156. Ok, how exactly do plan to have that go back in time and have us not return the Shah to power?

Just 'being nice' now isn't going to fix what we screwed up 60 years ago.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #156)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:31 AM

164. Huh?

 

What are you talking about with the Shah? Never mind, don't need to go there, far too confusing.

In answer, I hope, to your question, we can stop the drone strikes for one thing. That is radicalizing thousands of people who would otherwise not consider us hostile.

Oh, and stop firing up wars against an entire country simply to revenge on a relative handful of people who did us harm.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #164)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:25 AM

269. It's our original fuck-up in the middle east

and it's the original cause that started terrorists hating the US. Putting the Shah back in power resulted in a lot of other activities by us which then caused their own reasons for hatred.

Stopping drone attacks won't make that hatred go away.

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Response to jillan (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:43 PM

66. He could be like the French

and their "neo-liberal" (isn't everyone) President.

Stakes for France Are High as Hollande Continues an Intervention in Mali
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/world/europe/hollandes-intervention-in-mali-raises-concerns.html

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:34 PM

48. unrec

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:35 PM

51. Would you have prefered the alternative??

How would you have felt if Rmoney and Ryan were dancing tonight??

Get a reality check!

Grrrrrr

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #51)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

69. FWIW, MadHound advocated for letting Republicans win

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #69)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:48 PM

81. Not to mention the election eve....

...."I'm not saying don't vote for the president, but don't vote for the president" doublespeak.

They play the game, hopefully they slip up.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:05 AM

100. Thanks for remembering that, I blocked it out

"They play the game, hopefully they slip up."

From your lips to Skinner's ears.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:01 AM

141. So that's it

Thank you

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:36 PM

52. Sticks and drones may bomb my home

but words will never hurt me.......

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:38 PM

56. MadHound - OET called, they want their meme back.

They are wondering how soon you can bring it back

- Thanks

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:51 PM

84. I don't even think the Elmers are claiming this foolishness

Second thread today I've seen bemoaning... something. And wasn't surprised in the least by the author of either OP as they are 100% consistent in ALWAYS making sure that everyone here knows how never-endingly, incessantly, non-stopingly DISAPPOINTED they are in this man. Like any of us care.

And when people call them Obama haters, we'll get their tired "feet to the fire," "he TOLD me to make him do it" BS that they always give as if no one has ever read their posts.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:23 AM

157. Help me. Please...???

14 OET definitions


Office of Engineering and Technology
Office of Educational Technology
Office of Emergency Transportation
Office of Employment Training
Octachloro Endomethylene Tetrahydroindan
Office of Economic Transition
Office of Environmental Technology
open epicutaneous test
operational employment test
oral endotracheal tube
oral esophageal tube
Orbiter Engineering and Test
Orbiter Engineering Team
ovarian epithelial tumors

Which one?

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Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #157)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:52 AM

214. Old Elm Tree - a website mainly of ex-DUers

who got banned for not playing nice with the rest of us. There are a few who post on both sites. It's hard to characterise them exactly - mainly more left wing than the average DUer, I suppose, but the main distinguishing mark is "oh, they're starting some shit - again".

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:13 AM

321. Right....

The only thing missing from that god awful screed is the obligatory "Barry" reference.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:39 PM

58. Yeah they sound real innocent

The militants were travelling between the provinces of Marib, an Al-Qaeda stronghold, and Al-Jawf, when their vehicle was hit. Those killed were identified as Qasem Naser Tuaiman and Ali Saleh Tuaiman.

The two had been in a prison a year ago for joining Al-Qaeda but on their release headed to the southern province of Abyan where they joined jihadists fighting the army, the sources added.

http://www.france24.com/en/20130121-us-drone-strikes-qaeda-yemen-kill-two

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:40 PM

60. So tell your friends to stop supporting the NRA's BUSHMASTER markets abroad & putting guns in the

hands of people who USE others for their own political or economic agendas:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022193033

Does Rand/Ron Paul, Chris Hedges, and Glenn Greenwald KNOW enough to arm just anyone who says they oppose the U.N. and/or PO, assuming that these new Bushmaster owners have the best interests of the people you claim to be concerned about at heart? Whatever's right or wrong in these countries, none of it is made any better by arming anyone and everyone Fast-and-Furious style.

People who bitch about drones are, possibly, not only johnny-come-latelies to war resistance (something that they likely suddenly found somekind of commitment to that just so happened to co-incide with a relatively successful racist candidate known as Ron Paul) but also opponents to 3rd world countries controlling the flow of AMERICAN arms into their countries by means of treaties with the U.N.

Even if there is a point to UN financial corruption (which could also just be competition with Libertarians for foreign markets of certain types) do you think that UN corruption matters to children of newly created Bushmaster owners? One person's "liberator", as we saw in Libya, can be a bunch of other people's terrorists, drone targets, or only part of a longer more collaborative process like that which rose to the surface in Egypt on 9/11/12. Do the Pauls/Hedges/Greenwald know enough to predict the outcomes of supporting the NRA's BUSHMASTER markets anywhere and everywhere?

When you fertilize the ground with Bushmasters, drones are the next step, so anyone who is bitching about drones needs to find out if they are working with others, Libertarians usually, who oppose US participation in UN Arms Control Treaties that interfere with the NRA's markets south of our border and around the world.

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Response to patrice (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

71. Ummmmmmm

Dude, or dudette.....

I wouldn't go that far.

As Bob Ueker(sp?) would say: 'Juuuust a bit outside!'

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Response to Jarhead1775 (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:53 PM

86. Politics makes strange bedfellows. S.2205 was actively promoted by Rand Paul, before he lost his

seat and I received a petition to support it from a Libertarian around our Occupy.

Would you tell me what so "outside" about that?

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Response to patrice (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:01 AM

98. Yeah dude...

The dramatics in "fertilize the ground"

Street cred is lost with the drama.

Going back to Joe Friday, "Just the facts, ma'am"

Harry Potter would be cool too at this time.....but I'll leave it at that.

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Response to Jarhead1775 (Reply #98)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:19 AM

112. What is your concept of how trouble starts and is sustained in the world's trouble spots? nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:24 AM

119. ()

Money and ideology

Sustained by money to push your ideology on others. (Control)

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Response to Jarhead1775 (Reply #119)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:14 AM

150. yeah, I tried to sketch that below, apparently it was too complex for someone. nt

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Response to Jarhead1775 (Reply #119)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:18 AM

154. #144 below

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Response to patrice (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:58 PM

95. That was one of the most bizarre, twisted, weird posts I've seen out of you in a long time,

 

And that's saying something.

What's even weirder is that you're the second person in this thread trying to falsely conflate drone strikes and gun control.

Let me make it clear for you as well. Drone strikes are a foreign policy issue, gun control is a domestic issue. If you are trying, somehow, some way, to say that part of the problem is that the US exports a lot of guns to other countries, well, yes, that's been true for over a century now, but it too is a separate issue as well and has no bearing on drone strikes.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #95)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:16 AM

108. So PO is just using drones for whatever, without input from the relevant government in the

countries in which drone strikes occur. You think those governments are just simply letting the USA come into their countries to kill whomever for no reason having anything to do with the country in which that is occurring at all. You think the drone strikes are purely for the USA and not for anything to do with security issues, e.g. Libya, in the countries in which they occur.

That's a very naive idea of how this stuff works. Why would a government allow a foreign power to come into their country and just kill anyone for anything. You don't think that the people of whatever country would find that kind of activity worthy of revolt, UNLESS they in majority or a significant minority approved of the drone strikes for reasons of their own?

MadHound you are doing your usual job of not thinking about things nor asking any questions, such as, "Why?"

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Response to patrice (Reply #108)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:27 AM

123. Let's see here,

 

The Pakistan government has condemned the drone strikes again and again, this is but the latest.
http://www.newspakistan.pk/2013/01/04/pakistan-condemns-u-s-drone-strikes/

Yemen human rights groups condemn the strikes, and their own government for letting the US do them.
http://www.alsahwa-yemen.net/arabic/subjects/5/2012/9/5/22148.htm
Let's not forget that the Yemen government is a pretty brutal dictatorship, though they prefer the label "unitary presidential republic"(sound familiar?)

Even the UN condemns our drone strikes
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0619/breaking17.html

The US is quickly becoming an international pariah state due to drone strikes. Now why do you think that small countries like Pakistan(with the US army on its doorstep), Yemen and others don't fight back against drone strikes? Because they know quite well that if they resisted, we could very well bring the full might of our military to bear. That should answer your question about why.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:47 AM

131. But we really like the ex Yemen president

U.S. to welcome Yemen dictator for medical treatment
By Stephen C. Webster
Monday, January 23, 2012 9:46 EST


Yemen’s embattled dictator said in a televised address this week that he was on his way to the United States for medical treatment, adding that he would not be returning to the country as its leader, but as the president of the General People’s Congress party as part of a series of democratic reforms.

Ali Abdullah Saleh has been under siege by his own people, who’ve revolted against his brutal, autocratic rule over the last three decades. He’s also been targeted by demonstrators for his support of U.S. policies, and especially over a U.S. drone bombing campaign that has killed scores of his own people.

Even after repeated, brutal crackdowns on protesters, Saleh has been granted immunity from prosecution by the nation’s government as part of a peace deal brokered by neighboring nations. His long time vice president, Abdrabuh Mansur Hadi, is also the odds-on favorite candidate to succeed him....

Full article:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/23/u-s-to-welcome-yemen-dictator-for-medical-treatment/


And the spanking new democracy of Yemen is run by the US backed "vice president" of the old dictator WINK WINK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Rabbuh_Mansur_Hadi



Ain't those some hunky dory meatballs...

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Response to MadHound (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:10 AM

148. They say they oppose them because that's the politically expedient thing to say & the people know

that, but you take them at their word.

Why?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:15 AM

152. Tell me why a bunch of dictators & kings in foreign countries are always honest & Evil Obama always

lies.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:46 PM

76. ....

And you are so concerned about it that you will post to an internet board during the inauguration and MLK day, well that is action! well done!! and I am sure its just coincidence that this became issue number 1 at this particular moment today...

And do you think the Presidents orders are .. 'Kill innocents'.. is that what he did?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:48 PM

79. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
At Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

While the President dances, innocents mourn their dead, dead at the President's hand.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022235939

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Fuck this. I'm sick and tired of anti-Obama bullshit from this supposedly "liberal Democratic" poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:22 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Not today.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm getting tired of all the Obama bashing here, too.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Agree with the alerter, but this isn't hide worthy. It doesn't break any rules. It sucks and you'd think they would take the fucking day off, but whatever. Sorry can't hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This isn't an Obama personality cult. Get over it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:50 PM

83. I had similar thoughts, but I thought my fellow DUers deserved a day to celebrate

without the likes of me shitting all over the place.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #83)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:19 AM

114. You were similarly respectful and very kind

during election season. I remember. And I wish we had a way to reward that. And tonight. These things matter, especially in comparison. Thank you. It's the best I can do.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #114)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:26 AM

121. Thanks.

I try to be respectful and kind, but I still make mistakes.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #83)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:21 AM

116. +1

I think we all can use a break from the unrelenting and grave issues we are faced with.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #116)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:27 AM

122. Yeah, all of DU being upset today is not going to change anything. nt

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:54 PM

87. Well, I feel horrified....



Oh. Wait. No. I don't.



Just the opposite in fact. Dance on, my President. Dance on.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #87)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:59 PM

96. +1000000

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:17 AM

109. Dance on, indeed!

Beautiful.

Very sad the OP can't put away their hatred of our President for even a moment.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 11:57 PM

93. Sure buddy, he deliberately targets only innocents.

Same old crap from you.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:04 AM

99. I'd like very much to see your thoughts on assault weapons control, MadHound, especially in foreign

markets.

Do you consider indiscriminate access to American made assault weapons in the world's trouble spots politically destabilizing?

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Response to patrice (Reply #99)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:14 AM

107. What does that have to do with drone strikes?

 

Seriously, you are the second person trying to conflate US arms sales abroad with drone strikes, and it just doesn't work.

But to answer your questions, I would love to see an effective ban on assault weapons, I've mentioned that on this board more than once.

As far as the US being the number one arms dealer in the world, I'd like to see that change as well. But you know, the funny thing is, the US government government is the once who approves these things, including the Obama administration, in sales to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Libya and Egypt, among many others. Doesn't that seem rather foolish and counterproductive to you?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:07 AM

144. If there were a group of people who had more or less valid justice issues and they were a minority

in a country, with a government different from our own, something more royal or dictatorial, and this group either completely through their own efforts, or with somekind of external assistance, got the idea that the solution to their troubles was armed violence, even though just simply on the numbers alone there is absolutely no way armed violence was going to get them what they want and most likely would result in all of their deaths, if there were such a group, established at least for a few generations, becoming a better and better market for assault weapons, but never achieving a numeric size that would result in success for them and yet promoting themselves in their own regions and elsewhere by potential or actual violence and if you were the government of this country in which this is going on, a government of not only this one minority but also several other different ones beside, some with more, some with less affinity for our troublesome group, what would you as the government do?

Don't give me an answer as a citizen of a constitutional republic with more or less democratic processes in place and functioning, give me an answer in the contexts to which we refer (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya elsewhere . . . ). One thing I would do if I were a government in this kind of situation, I'd be going to the country that is selling arms to my trouble group and try to make them stop. Another thing I would do if I were a government in such a situation, I would try to figure out if some of the leaders of my trouble group are people who exploit anyone and everyone for their own agendas. I might be an exploiter myself, but I'd certainly want to know if I'm up against an authentic social movement or some people being lead by another exploiter.

There's still the problem of no matter what the group is and no matter how they are getting their arms and who their leadership is, whether that leadership is authentic or exploitative, in some situations our trouble group can and will be genocided if a certain kind of government chose to do that. Can you see that these kinds of situations can almost be like hostage situations and in many cases, the trouble group/hostages could be a problem, they have become problematic hostages with the threat of genocide hanging over their heads, BECAUSE of American produced and NRA promoted arms flowing into their situation.

If you were the government in charge of this situation, would you just go ahead and genocide the trouble group, pleasing some of your other countrymen, but also making about the same amount of others angry and eventually perhaps even problematic also? Or would you "call the Policemen of the World/the USA", who has longstanding treaties at least in your region if not with your actual country, and are those whom, incidentally, are also responsible for your country's troubles because they may have been selling arms to that trouble group of people who NEVER had a chance of anything but impending genocide anyway.

I don't like that this is the way that things are, MadHound, but it IS the way things are and summarily pretending otherwise, no matter how right that trouble group may be about their issues, does not result in anything but the worst of two more bad things, not only for the trouble group, but for a whole lot of other people who choose more or less directly not to participate in the struggle over those issues in the first place. Could something else happen? Yes, but not by just pretending that certain things are so. People have to be responsible for how change occurs and violence, from Bushmasters and their consequence, drones, interferes with bringing those kinds of change about.

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Response to patrice (Reply #144)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:10 AM

147. Nice lot of words there, a shame that they make hardly a lick of sense.

 

Please, consolidate, paraphrase, something, anything to make the point(s) you're trying to get across a bit clearer than mud. Thanks.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #147)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:12 AM

149. I'm sorry your short term memory parsing is so limited. Perhaps you should do something about that.

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Response to patrice (Reply #149)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:17 AM

153. It isn't my short term memory that is the problem,

 

It is the sheer amount of nonsensical verbage that you're putting out there. Seriously, I'm not trying to be an ass about this, I would love to continue our conversation, but that last post of yours simply made no sense whatsoever.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #153)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:26 AM

159. Quote whatever part confuses you & I will fix it. nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #159)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:34 AM

166. The entirety of post 144

 

Like I said earlier, consolidate, paraphrase, and use more than one or two sentences to make up a paragraph. It makes for much easier reading and understanding.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #166)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 AM

172. Nevermind. I'm tired. Forget it. Or do it yourself. nt

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Response to MadHound (Reply #147)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:20 AM

155. Your predeliction for insult is a dead give away for bias. Tell me why dictators always tell the

truth & Obama always lies. Is that simple enough for you?

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Response to patrice (Reply #155)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:28 AM

162. I'm not trying to insult you,

 

Please, go back and look at that post. Your entire first paragraph is one long sentence. The rest of your paragraphs are broken into two sentences at most. It makes for a confusing, bewildering word mash that I simply can't wade through.

As far as your question goes, where have I said that dictators are telling the truth and Obama is lying? Your original post to me in this subthread concerned weapons sales, and I was pointing out that yes, I thought it was a problem, especially since this administration was following in the footsteps of previous administrations by selling arms to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Libya, Egypt and elsewhere.

You seem to be taking a scattershot approach to your replies, throwing everything out there trying to find out what sticks, please, stay on topic. And please, construct your replies so they're not just a word salad. Thanks.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #162)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:30 AM

163. MADHound, tell me why dictators always tell the truth & EVIL Obama always lies & likes murder. nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #163)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 AM

171. paTRICE, tell me what that question has to do with the price of tea in China,

 

Or anything else relevant to our discussion? Again, I've never said that dictators always tell the truth or that Obama always lies.

Please, try to have a discussion without having to resort to hyperactive hyperbole.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #171)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:58 AM

183. You listed all of these governments who supposedly oppose the drone strikes & You ignored my comment

that of course they would say such things for political reasons and yet you believe them fully.

While everything PO has said about this is apparently a lie to you and it appears that you think PO orders drones because he's a murderer or something only with bad or evil intent.

People like you never admit that PO does in fact know a great deal more about the whole situation than you do and yet you're willing to characterize that as evil and anyone who corroborates your point of view for whatever reason as heroic.

Why do you think that, as in the countries you listed above, all of these dictators and kings and such always tell us the truth about what is going on with drones and whatever and President Obama always lies and orders drones for no useful or good reason whatsoever?

HOW do you think any of this is even remotely possible without at least the indirect complicity of the countries that we are talking about, themselves, or of their allies and such who withhold their own responses, or pressure the country being droned to let it go, because we are assisting them somehow?

Again, is this the way that I would do it? No! But it is the way that it is done and Ron/Rand Paul, Chris Hedges, and Glenn Greenwald don't have what it takes to change any of it. All of their activity on this issue is political opportunism at the expense of people who are under threat of genocide from their own governments if someone, in this case the Policemen of the World/the USA, doesn't get them under somekind of threat of control from a lesser force (drones) than full on genocide, which is the usual solution if you may have noticed.

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Response to patrice (Reply #183)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:10 AM

185. Umm, the UN isn't an evil dictatorship,

 

Yet it condemned our drone strikes.

Pakistan is, at least nominally, our ally in a war, yet it condemns our drone strikes. Oh, and the Pakistani government is a dictatorship.

The Yemen group that I linked to isn't part of the government, it is a human rights group, one that deals with protecting children. It condemned not only the US for our drone strikes, but its own government for allowing the US to launch the strikes within their country. It isn't a dictatorship, or some radical group, but a well known and respected NGO in the area.

Perhaps you need to start reading more closely, including the links I post. Then perhaps you won't go off half-cocked on a rant that has absolutely no bearing to what I was saying.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #185)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:29 AM

188. Not according to your Libertarian & LiberTea anti-drone friends, to them, the UN is corrupt ...

Created by bankers for bankers and agent of the new world order and it's black helicopters.

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Response to patrice (Reply #188)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:17 AM

207. Well, I guess you would know more about that than I would.

 

I don't hang with such people, why do you?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #185)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:42 AM

193. AGAIN tell me why the dictators always tell all of the truth & Evil Obama always tells complete lies

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Response to patrice (Reply #193)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:19 AM

208. AGAIN, you are the one making this claim, not I.

 

Why don't you explain it instead, since you seem to know so much about the topic.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:11 AM

105. I hear FDR was drinkin' when we firebombed Dresden...

That bastard!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:14 AM

244. And he was eating truffles and drinking champagne on the evening of his third inaugural

while American citizens of Japanese descent were living in concentration camps, put there by his orders.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #244)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:12 PM

378. THAT MONSTER!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:22 AM

117. "Dead at the President's hand"

You really undercut the argument you're trying to make with language like that you know. You're going for shock value over substance, deliberately timed to get the biggest rise out of people.

It doesn't make you righteous, it doesn't make you an activist. It makes you a troll.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #117)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:35 AM

126. Who orders those drones into the air? Who orders the strikes to be made?

 

Who has his own personal kill list?

That's right, you can say it, President Obama. The Commander in Chief.

Not his subordinates, not somebody else, the president.

What's funny is these same drone strikes were condemned when Bush was doing them, and I and a lot of other people around here vorciferously condemned Bush for them at the time. But now, when it is a president with a D behind his name, most of those voices have fallen silent. That isn't being a troll, that is being consistent in the condemnation of an outrageous practice that takes the lives of hundreds and thousands of innocents.

I guess the UN is a troll as well, at least in your eyes.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #126)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:41 AM

129. No, they aren't.

Unlike you, they used responsible language to address the issue, and refrained from timing their statements to get the ugliest emotional reaction possible to what they had to say.

Unlike you. Troll.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #129)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:52 AM

134. Oh my stars and garters, I didn't use language that pleased you, my timing wasn't impeccable,

 

Hey, I guess that the timing of those drone strikes in Yemen wasn't real spectacular either, not for the innocents that died. And they didn't get to have an emotional reaction, they just got to have their blood and guts blown to hell in a hand basket.

Excuse the fuck out me for not being polite and diplomatic when it comes to innocents dying in our name. Excuse the fuck out of me for having the poor timing when pointing out that our insane, condemned drone policy is going to come back and bite us in the ass. Frankly, I don't want to see anybody here, not you, not me, become the victim of another 911 terrorist who is pissed off because we blew the fuck out of his baby sister when we really didn't need to.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #134)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:07 AM

145. What seems to have escaped you

Is that I haven't disagreed with the point you're trying to make. I'm telling you that the way you're trying to make it undermines your credibility.

Clearly you could do this all night, and you'll defend your efforts 'till the end, but all you're doing is making yourself look rabid when you could be attempting a more civil debate.

I'm guessing your response will be something along the lines of "there is nothing civil about what the President is doing!", but sinking to shock value to make your point still only makes you one thing: a troll.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #145)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:15 AM

151. Well, if that is how you define a troll, one who uses "shocking" language,

 

And inconvenient timing, then I'm guess I'm in good company, for many people, much admired, like Ghandi, MLK, Malcolm X and so many others have done the same thing.

The real ironic thing is you scolding me over language, while every reply you've written to me has called me a troll. Now just how conducive is that to civil discourse?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #151)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:27 AM

161. Hah.

That's quite a justification to put yourself among such company. I'll let you think on whether or not such grandiose self-congratulations are truly in order.

And yes, I've called a spade a spade. You're sitting back watching the replies roll in, quick to engage every person you can. It would be almost admirable if your presentation wasn't so completely and transparently for your own satisfaction. The points you're trying to make in this thread are being consistently undermined by your own rhetoric. And yes, it's trolling.

But sure, you're the new MLK. Sure.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:39 AM

169. Umm, isn't that the very nature of these sort of chatboards?

 

We all put things up here for our own satisfaction. It is what we do in the real world that counts, like protesting the war, fighting for civil liberties, working to make this world a better place. I do all of those, do you?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #169)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 AM

177. Indeed I do.

But with dignity, and the knowledge that the way I make my argument has as much effect on whether people will take me seriously or not as the message itself.

You see how much good Alex Jones did for the gun debate for right wingers. And no, I'm not comparing you to that lunatic. But opposing the Presidents policies and calling him a murderer on a historic evening such as this are very different things.

Tonight is a rare night in which many people want to celebrate the fact that we get Obama for another 4 years, flaws and all, over the devastating consequences that would have come to pass if tonight were Mitt Romney's night. Even you ought to be able to celebrate that.

To be effective, you need to learn how to pick your battles, and how to frame them. Otherwise... You're trolling.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #177)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:56 AM

182. You know, you would have much more credence with me

 

If you hadn't opened up with calling me a troll, and continue to call me a troll with every single post you make. But since that seems to be your thing, despite your calls for moderation of language and civility in conversation, I feel under no obligation to follow your advice. Have a good evening, and perhaps we can meet under more pleasant circumstances in the future. If not, oh well.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #182)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:16 AM

186. I'm not looking for anything from you.

I choose to work towards my goals respectfully and not marginalize people I'm trying to persuade by using bombastic language or raining on people's parades. It's folks like you who make what I'm trying to do harder. I do my work within the boundaries of reasonable discourse.

You can (and obviously will) argue it your way until you're blue in the face, but I keep calling you a troll because I'm trying to get through to you. To help you understand that threads like these, especially on a night like tonight, do more harm than good. It pushes you to the fringe. This thread doesn't make you a crusader for justice. It makes you "that ass who said that nasty thing that night I was feeling good about America."

You see, like it or not, tonight was a great night for most of us. Even the ones who are some of the toughest critics. But yes, do have a good evening. It's a shame you can't find any satisfaction in what happened today, because it was monumental.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #186)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:40 AM

191. It is true that people who are looking for actual solutions, not just an internet following, will

will turn away from the demagogues and whatever truth was mixed in with so much dross will be lost as those who live in the real world do the work to figure out how to make something better, and then something else better, and after that another thing better . . . .

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Response to patrice (Reply #191)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:50 AM

196. Exactly. n/t

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #186)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:15 AM

205. LOL!

 

"I choose to work towards my goals respectfully and not marginalize people I'm trying to persuade by using bombastic language"

So I suppose that calling somebody a troll every time you address them is somehow respectful, eh? Calling me a troll doesn't push you to the fringe in my opinion?

How would you like it if I called you a troll every time I spoke to you. Perhaps I should try that and see how you like that.

You certainly have a funny way of trying to show people how one should be respectful.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #182)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:41 AM

279. If it walks like a troll,

and talks like a troll, it's usually a troll.

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Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #117)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:53 AM

203. What does killing children with a drone make someone?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:23 AM

118. I really don't like getting posts hidden

so I won't say anything.

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Response to treestar (Reply #118)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 12:47 PM

411. What? You are advocating freedom of speech??

 

I expect my post will be voted to be hidden, but I simply cannot accept Obama's assertion that he can lawfully order the killing of any person, including any American citizen, anywhere in the world simply because he believes that person guilty of "terrorism."

Such a usurpation of power by the executive branch exceeds even the unconstitutional, un-American, and indefensible actions of his predecessor.

Unfortunately, earlier this year a federal judge basically upheld the president's claimed license to kill:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/us/judge-rules-memo-on-targeted-killing-can-remain-secret.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=1&



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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #411)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 12:07 AM

412. Doubt he makes that claim

You are as responsible as anyone else. We elect the CIC and Congress. We can't pretend to blame the President for what our country does. We do have a right to defend ourselves from terrorists. How we go about that is another issue. If you don't like that, speak up, but quit acting like the President alone is responsible. Who demands that the government defend them from future harm? Who is it that claims the President must protect us?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:35 AM

125. Rev. King would applaud you, MadHound

He didn't stand for Johnson's warmongering; I highly doubt he'd stand for Obama's.

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Response to DerekG (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:25 AM

158. Did MLK

object to LBJ dancing during the Vietnam War?


http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/inauguration/index.shtm

Martin Luther King wasn't a petty man with hate in his heart.

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Response to DerekG (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:35 AM

190. +1

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Response to DerekG (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:54 AM

289. We prefer the safe sanitized version of King

thank you very much!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:51 AM

133. Oh ffs. Give it a rest. n/t

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:58 AM

139. Optimists are rarely surprised by trouble.

And the Earth still spins while we ride it round and type. The only sense some ever come to is the easiest to go to, pain. I deeply hope your days improve with your outlook. Willing it so, is something I would do if I could, but only you can do that. I will tell you, 21 January, 2013 was a very good day for a great many people and sadly good days are rarer than the painful days the Earth rolls out for most of its riders. I don't know when I will have another day as great as it was but I know I wish you a very good day soon.

Peace. lmsp

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Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #139)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:01 AM

142. Thank you for your kind words,

 

However I learned long ago never to tie my well being or state of mind to whomever is going into or getting out of most political offices. I tie my well being to much more personal matters, friends, family, etc. Politicians, not so much.

I've been around far too long to make that mistake.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:27 AM

160. Unless your alternative includes a flux capacitor

drone strikes appear to be our least-bad alternative.

It would be great if we hadn't fucked over the middle east decades ago. But we did. That greatly limits our options today to bad, terrible and awful.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #160)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:36 AM

167. Drone strikes are going to blowback on us badly,

 

They are radicalizing thousands, making more and more enemies that will now come back and try to do us harm. Try thinking ahead while learning from the past.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #167)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:41 AM

173. So you posted this shit OP because you're worried about "blowback"?

I doubt that.

"They are radicalizing thousands, making more and more enemies that will now come back and try to do us harm. Try thinking ahead while learning from the past. "

By "enemies," do you mean "innocents"?

What exactly is your point?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #173)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:49 AM

178. Yes, I am

 

Let me ask you this, say, oh, Russia wanted to get back at some capitalist terrorists that had bombed the Kremlin, and they were living next door to you. Russia launches a drone strike into your neighborhood that blows up not just the terrorist, but everything in a four or five house radius, including your beloved spouse or child.

Wouldn't you want to get back at the Russians, any way you could? Wouldn't you be out for revenge?

Now, multiply that by thousands, and that's where our problems becomes major. While you may want revenge against those Russians, you may not have the means to do so. But if that scene were repeated hundreds of times, pretty soon the number of those friends and relatives who wanted revenge would grow large enough that you could find a group who had the means and will to carry out an attack on the Kremlin all on their very own.

That is what we're looking at, and if you don't get the problem now, then perhaps you will in a few years or so when we have another 911 here. Because that is exactly what is going to happen. You can't kill innocents again and again and expect to escape the consequences.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #178)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 AM

180. By "enemies," do you mean "innocents"?

This is your fantasy.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #178)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:20 AM

265. So, is that what this is all about? You're scared of the "blowback"?

What sort of weaponry are you in possession of?

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Response to Turborama (Reply #265)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:27 AM

271. Huh?

 

What does that have to do with blowback coming from people whose friends and relatives have been killed in drone attacks? You're not making sense.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #271)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:50 AM

286. You're scared they're coming to wreak revenge. Have you got lots of guns?

Yes or no?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #167)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:19 AM

263. And they're still the least-bad option

Broadly speaking, we've got three options:

1) Drone Strikes - which have the problems you mention

2) Invasion - the downsides of this should be obvious

3) Back off - the problem with this is our drone strikes are disrupting the ability of terrorist groups to plan large-scale attacks. Backing off on drone strikes aren't going to make these groups stop hating the US. So backing off will lead to them planning and then carrying out large-scale terrorist attacks in the US. The aftermath of such an attack is likely to be #2 above. Meaning we not only get the downsides of invasion, but we get another pile of dead in the US and attacks on civil liberties. Even if the president at the time doesn't invade, political pressure will replace him with a warmonger.

So yes, drone strikes are bad. The alternatives are worse. The way out of this current situation will require resolving the conflict between Israel and Palestine and other regional irritants before stopping the strikes would be effective.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #263)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:26 AM

270. And drone strikes are continuing to drive thousands into the hands of al Qaeda,

 

When another 911 type event occurs, get back to me and tell me just how better the option of drones strikes were.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #270)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:38 AM

277. Again, it's the least-bad of bad options.

get back to me and tell me just how better the option of drones strikes were.

Already did. Perhaps you could bother to respond to what I wrote instead of mindlessly repeating your talking points.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:31 AM

165. Yep. Definitely Stage 6 ODS.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #165)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 05:52 AM

202. Well I suppose the dead children will thank you for your snark.

While our president has done a great job overall. On this he is wrong and it is not about his dancing it his utter lack of moral choice on this issue.

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Response to aandegoons (Reply #202)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:06 PM

375. Thank you for your concern. Where were you when Bush was doing far worse??

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:38 AM

168. While the President dances...Vietnam



Dancing at the Inaugural Ball: Lady Bird Johnson, Vice President Hubert Humphrey, Muriel Humphrey, President Lyndon B. Johnson

<...>

• The Inaugural parade consisted of 30 floats, 15,000 marchers, 54 bands, and 54 military units. There were supposed to be 31 floats but Maryland’s float was missing as parade officials deemed that the position of the flag on the float, meant to depict the flag that inspired “The Star-Spangled Banner” and parallel to the street ,was not according to protocol.

<...>

• The Inaugural Balls were held in five locations: The Mayflower, the Shoreham, the National Guard Armory, the Sheraton Park, and the Statler-Hilton; tickets were $25 with the exception of the Gala with performances at the National Guard Armory. Tickets for that event were $100. Approximately 28,000 persons attended the five balls.

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/inauguration/index.shtm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Lyndon_B._Johnson.27s_escalation.2C_1963.E2.80.931969


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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:40 AM

170. Remind them that Obama did not START these unpaid for wars. I hope we can get out asap.

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Response to judesedit (Reply #170)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:44 AM

174. While the GOP is happy to let millions starve to death at home & many are purchasing AK47's in hope

of a civil war. Spare me.

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Response to judesedit (Reply #170)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:48 AM

175. Yeah...just like Obama didnt sign NDAA or renew the Patriot Act or continue policy of torture

or spending billions to expand domestic spying and drone attacks. That's all Republican stuff, right? The President was forced into that stuff, right?

When you want to talk about a REAL progressive agenda...get back to me. Until then, just enjoy the champagne and hor'dourves while partying all night with the rich. The rest of the country has to go to work tomorrow.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #175)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:51 AM

179. Before flinging poop

"Yeah...just like Obama didnt sign NDAA or renew the Patriot Act or continue policy of torture"

...get your facts straight.

ENDING TORTURE = Three Torches
  • Ordered an end to the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, withdrew
    flawed legal analysis used to justify torture and applied the Army Field Manual on interrogations
    government wide.
  • Abolished the CIA secret prisons.
  • Says that “waterboarding is torture” and “contrary to America’s traditions… contrary to our ideals.”
  • No reports of extraordinary rendition to torture or other cruelty under his administration.
  • Failed to hold those responsible for past torture and other cruelty accountable; has blocked
    alleged victims of torture from having their day in court.
http://www.aclulibertywatch.org/ALWCandidateReportCard.pdf


"When you want to talk about a REAL progressive agenda...get back to me. Until then, just enjoy the champagne and hor'dourves while partying all night with the rich. The rest of the country has to go to work tomorrow."

Really self-righteous, aren't you?

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #175)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:26 AM

187. I'm curious about what you think about the fact that that NDAA 2011, like most NDAAs, was veto-proof

If you were President, what would you have done if the means by which our military pays their bills, provides for troops in war, and pays their people's paychecks became embroiled in another long congressional fight, because you vetoed it and your veto didn't even survive anyway, and since congress knows your veto is going to lose you can't get any changes into the NDAA during the over-ride fight, so your veto was for what . . . . ?

Please, please, I honestly AM curious about how you see this sort of thing. I don't understand and would like to know what it is that I am missing here. What do you think about the fact that NDAAs are almost always veto proof.

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Response to patrice (Reply #187)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:16 AM

206. You don't sign it, and take your case to the bully pulpit,

 

It has been done before, why not now? Why attach your name in approval of a bill that continues to destroy our civil liberties?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:40 AM

192. I wonder how many people would have been killed had the President used more conventional.....

....weapons in each of those attacks like cruise missiles, or bombs from either a B-2 or a B-52, or an artillery strike? Ever think about how much worse the casualties would be if we didn't use missiles fired from a drone?

Have you ever given much thought to what those Al Qaeda operatives might still be planning in terms of killing US troops and/or civilians had the drones not taken them out?

Instead of the constant attacks on the President, tell me what you would do if you were the President. What's your plan?


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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #192)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:24 AM

209. Have you ever given much thought to how fewer al Qaeda operative would be in this world,

 

If we hadn't radicalized thousands and thousands of people by blowing the hell out of their friends and relatives with drones. Many experts seem to think so, what about you?

You want to know what I would do? I certainly wouldn't use the blunt weapon of a drone strike when a more surgical, precise method is called for.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #209)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:52 AM

257. Please tell me what you would use to achieve "a more surgical, precise method"....

....of killing or incapacitating an enemy operative other than using a drone strike. Be precise, please. We've already ruled out cruise missiles, bombs, and artillery strikes because of the potential for high civilian casualties. Are you going to risk US military personnel in operations that may have to take place deep in hostile territory against highly mobile enemy operatives, operations that may require weeks or months of planning? What "surgical, more precise method" do you think we have at our disposal?

With all due respect to the "many experts" noted in your post, one could also argue that had it not been for a series of Al Qaeda attacks on US installations culminating in the events of 9-11 we would not be discussing this subject at all. Additionally, I would argue that millions of Americans became radicalized by watching the 9-11 attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. I would also argue that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq would never have taken place had 9-11 not occurred.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:49 AM

195. Really?!?!?

The headline is a bit over the top. So you think that the president enjoys killing people or having people killed? Really? Drop the hyperbolic headline with that crap about Obama dancing around while killing people and your cause would be much more likely to receive its much do attention.

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Response to xxxsdesdexxx (Reply #195)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:40 AM

211. Sometimes the truth hurts,

 

Obama orders drone strikes in the morning, dances that night. I don't know whether the president enjoys that or not, but that is exactly what is happening. If that disturbs you, perhaps you have more of problem with our drone policy than with headlines.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:57 AM

197. You folks remind me why I hate politics

OP making a point about innocents dying, and people post some fluff picture with Obama dancing.

I'd be willing to bet if it were your families, you might take it more seriously.

Never mind that, though, let's go back to playing with our Obama Barbies and pretending that killing Yemenis will keep us safe. If this were Connecticut and a Bushmaster was involved HOLD THE FUCK ON, WE GOT A PROBLEM HERE... oh wait, they're poor, brown and don't speak English? And it's one of Obama's drones? Pfff, get outta here nobody cares.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #197)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:06 AM

218. And your post reminds me of hate.

You folks remind me why I hate politics

OP making a point about innocents dying, and people post some fluff picture with Obama dancing.

Did you miss the title of the OP:

"While the President dances, innocents mourn their dead, dead at the President's hand. "

I'd be willing to bet if it were your families, you might take it more seriously.

Never mind that, though, let's go back to playing with our Obama Barbies and pretending that killing Yemenis will keep us safe. If this were Connecticut and a Bushmaster was involved HOLD THE FUCK ON, WE GOT A PROBLEM HERE... oh wait, they're poor, brown and don't speak English? And it's one of Obama's drones? Pfff, get outta here nobody cares.

The President is trying to kill "poor, brown" who "don't speak English" so fuck Connecticut?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:07 AM

198. while innocents die in this country from our gun culture, YOU defend said culture over

and over.

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Response to cali (Reply #198)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:44 AM

212. I'm not defending anybody's culture,

 

I'm protesting the indiscriminate killing of innocents.

Oh, and I'm protesting a policy that is guaranteeing that another tragedy like 911 will happen on our soil. Is that what you want to see?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:14 AM

204. The very best thing about Ralph Nader& Naderites&3rd partyites is-NEVER AGAIN will it happen

 

the 3rd party ites are finished in american Presidential election.
history
ta ta
good bye
caio
farewell
don't let the door hit you on the way out
finished.
done.
over.

Naderinanity in 2000 was the last time a democratic person will ever fall for the bullshit line
both parties are the same

so long
farewell
auf weidershein
goodbye

as Richard Clarke said (and as Richard Clarke was one Democrats cited in 2001 as someone Bush should have followed) Drones are the most humane method of warfare.

If 25 have died from drones, having armed man to man combat would have killed 10,000
therefore 9,975 were saved from having a drone
PLUS
the inane raw number statistic is, those 25 most likely would ALSO have died from man to man ground combat, meaning instead of 10,000, there would have been 10,025 plus all the deaths from the hands of the terrorists that they kill in other countries themselves

Meanwhile, guns kill 34 people a day in America, and yet well, guess who wants those guns to overthrow the government that has saved 10,025 people for every 25 killed by a drone.

Mr. Spock would laugh at the illogical logic in the article in the OP and all articles like that.

Naderites, at least they are as popular as other now laughed at, spit at groups.
Nader himself, like Ron Paul, laughing and propped up by the republican party, financed by the republican party and making millions while continuing to do so.

And then Nader still goes on about corporate personhood, becuase, yeah, sure, Al Gore would have put Alito and Roberts on the court.
Yeah, sure.
Take it to the bank, because Nader and Paul both take baths in all the money their lies have made them over the years.
I no longer even can remember that far back, did Nader actually do any good at any time?
Or was he on the books even back then and it was just that no one was looking into it?
Were his pronouncements way back also financed by the rightwing?
Who know, who cares.

because he and any other 3rd party chaotic maker is rendered by Ralph Nader himself, forever OBSOLETE OBSOLETE OBSOLETE. He is the OBSOLETE MAN.

and does Ralph Nader realize- it is ALL HIS FAULT for anything/everything that happened
2001-2009?

hey Bart, write on the blackboard, IT IS ALL RALPH NADER'S fault, one million times
because, well, it is.

RALPH NADER IS THE SPOILER. HE SINGLE HANDLEDLY SPOILED ANYTHING GOOD IN AMERICA.
Ralph Nader danced over the democracy he singlehandedly spoiled.
imho of course.

and of course, he is also LAZY. Too lazy to actually run for win an office more suited to winning. And having of course to take a big pay check downsize himself, as public office pays far less than the $$$$$$ he windfalls in.

Why do grunt work, when whining is so much more profitable, hey Ralphie?



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Response to graham4anything (Reply #204)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:47 AM

213. That is one of the most bizarre conflation of two distictly different topics I've seen in a while,

 

Umm, Nader happened over twelve years ago, stop trying to blame him for everything.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #213)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:56 AM

215. no it's not...think about it.Without Bush, no 9-11, no patriot act(ratified by entire congress)

 

conflating two issues would be the OP article anyhow

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #215)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:04 AM

217. And what, exactly, does that have to do with drone strikes ordered by Obama?

 

Really, are you going that far out there?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #217)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:11 AM

220. It's congress that authorized and ordered it.Without terrorists, no war on terror

 

without nader, no war on terror as Gore would have won with the 10 million voters that did not vote from Nader saying why bother to vote, stay home, both are the same yada yada yada

it was only after the 2012 election, and seeing the total votes cast
in 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012 that it was so stark clear how many did not bother to come out,
most likely a great majority of those not coming to vote being that at the time they believed Nader's both are the same, stay home, your vote not needed.
(but the voters did not know that Nader was financed by the repubs to do just what he did).

of course, had Nader run for Senate, and 100 other greens ran to win in the house, then maybe those voices could have spoken loud and clear from the inside
Instead of whining without realizing they brought this upon themselves.

yes, I will go there.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #220)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:19 AM

225. Alrighty then,

 

I'll just let you continue to do your thing. Apparently you wish to believe that everything bad in this world is somehow linked to Nader.

I suggest that you stop living in the past, it makes dealing with the present much more difficult.

Oh, and in the January 23 issue of Blueprint magazine, Al From, head of the DLC, clearly stated that Bush would have done much better without Nader in the race, that if he hadn't run, voters would have broke 2:1 for Bush.

But again, neither that, nor any of what you're going on about has anything to do with what is going on now. If you want to play that sort of game we can go all the way back to Iran Contra and the fact that if the Dems had pursued that to the full extent of the law, the Bush family would have been banished to the political wilderness forever, and we wouldn't have had either Bush I or II.

But that sort of thinking is just as foolish as your blaming Nader, just saying.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #225)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:52 AM

238. without President Obama, you would have 1000 times more deaths

 

so go and vote for Jeb in 2016 if you wish

wihtout the ACLU getting the shredder and others off on technicalities...
and as 41 pardoned everyone anyhow

of course, had the protesters not tossed LBJ into the river in 1968, he would have beaten Nixon and democratic candidates would have been president since then

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:13 AM

222. you are becoming a parody of yourself

much like elvis in his later years.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #222)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:22 AM

227. Why do you say that?

 

I condemn these illegal, immoral wars under Bush and Obama. I condemn these drone strikes under Bush and Obama. I condemn the shredding of our Constitution and civil liberties under Bush and Obama.

I would say that is being consistent with my values.

But you're right, I have put on a little extra weight over the past ten years, but nowhere the amount that Elvis put on.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #227)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:34 AM

231. it is like you are just going through the motions now

trying to cover for the lack of new material with an insincere enthusiasm.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #231)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:46 AM

236. Sorry that you find my posting so repetitive,

 

I would much rather not having to post on these deaths at all, but those drones do keep on flying, and innocents keep on dying.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #231)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:56 AM

335. It has to get paid somehow

Do paid trolls get vacation time?

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #335)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:14 PM

347. Damn I wish I could get paid for protesting imperial wars, drone strikes

 

And the revocation of our civil liberties, it would make my life much easier.

Funny though how you use the term "it" when referring to me. The only other times I see that is cruising through Freeper boards, where they think the term is a cute way of dehumanizing Democrats and liberals. Is that what you're trying to do to me, and if so, why?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #347)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:18 PM

350. I'm against all wars, drone strikes, etc. too

but there's a right way and a wrong way to talk about things in a way that's respectful of others. Time and time again, you choose the wrong way, opting for a flamefest rather than real dialogue. Why wouldn't people think that's trolling?

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #350)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:23 PM

352. Sorry, but around here, as in real life, there is no right time or place to discuss these things,

 

Besides, when Bush was president, did we take a break from criticizing him on his inauguration days? No, in fact this very board was born of a protest by the Admins on his inauguration day. So, why is it a legit protest to criticize and protest Bush on his inauguration, but not on Obama's?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:37 AM

232. You forgot to include these in you OP.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #232)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:48 AM

237. Joe, Joe, we can always count on you for the insubstantial post.

 

Once again, you fail to address the facts of the post.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #237)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:52 AM

239. Seemed an appropriate response given the OP's content. But I will add ...

Some sour grapes ...



And then some bitter herbs, which are useful for heartburn.



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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #239)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:19 AM

247. I love you!! :)

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #247)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:42 AM

255. Awe ...

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:57 AM

258. Here, this

might be of interest.

Obama's Inaugural: A New Foreign Policy?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237368

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