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Mon Jan 21, 2013, 04:02 AM

Outlaw RFID tagging of compulsory school students

http://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/outlaw-rfid-tagging-students-compulsory-schools/cGWKsGlR

Grant Andrea Hernandez a high school diploma.
http://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/grant-andrea-hernandez-high-school-diploma/W7SnxN1Q

Inspired by (and more about the issue)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=361174

63 replies, 2849 views

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Arrow 63 replies Author Time Post
Reply Outlaw RFID tagging of compulsory school students (Original post)
Trillo Jan 2013 OP
reverend_tim Jan 2013 #1
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #2
jberryhill Jan 2013 #3
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #5
Thor_MN Jan 2013 #8
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #9
jberryhill Jan 2013 #17
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #20
jberryhill Jan 2013 #21
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #30
jberryhill Jan 2013 #31
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #34
jberryhill Jan 2013 #11
immoderate Jan 2013 #42
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #44
reverend_tim Jan 2013 #4
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #6
jberryhill Jan 2013 #13
reverend_tim Jan 2013 #35
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #41
JackRiddler Jan 2013 #50
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #7
jberryhill Jan 2013 #12
flamingdem Jan 2013 #16
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #22
flamingdem Jan 2013 #27
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #29
flamingdem Jan 2013 #32
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #49
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #33
flamingdem Jan 2013 #38
Tien1985 Jan 2013 #43
flamingdem Jan 2013 #46
Harmony Blue Jan 2013 #40
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #26
Trillo Jan 2013 #10
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #14
sammytko Jan 2013 #24
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #47
JackRiddler Jan 2013 #51
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #57
JackRiddler Jan 2013 #58
flamingdem Jan 2013 #15
jeff47 Jan 2013 #52
flamingdem Jan 2013 #55
jeff47 Jan 2013 #56
JackRiddler Jan 2013 #61
petronius Jan 2013 #18
RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #19
jberryhill Jan 2013 #23
proud2BlibKansan Jan 2013 #25
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #28
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #36
iamthebandfanman Jan 2013 #45
davidn3600 Jan 2013 #53
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #37
Harmony Blue Jan 2013 #39
jeff47 Jan 2013 #54
Trillo Jan 2013 #48
IDemo Jan 2013 #59
Revanchist Jan 2013 #60
Trillo Jan 2013 #62
Trillo Jan 2013 #63

Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 04:41 AM

1. Why ? I have to wear on at work, most large employers now require it.

I see nothing wrong with students having to do the same.

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Response to reverend_tim (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 04:50 AM

2. You can leave your job

And work elsewhere. Students don't have that option.

And no large company I've ever worked for tried to track me like I was some kind of criminal. I would not work for a company that did unless I had no other choice and would be constantly looking for something else the entire time.

It's completely unnecessary, and excuse to invade privacy. What if someone decided a student's visit to Planned Parenthood was "immoral" and outed or confronted the student about it. That is one such way this technology can be abused.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 04:57 AM

3. They are not required 24/7


It's more like locking the school and giving every student a key.

There is no off-campus requirement or even utility for them.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 05:11 AM

5. You don't need tracking technology

to have a key card system. It's easy enough to have a key card that opens and closes doors and alerts security when an outside door is opened.

Also, what's to stop the school from tracking students once they leave the grounds? It's not like every kid is going to go straight home and drop off their tracker immediately. It'll go with them wherever they go next, because if they leave it at school they won't be getting in the next morning.

This is suppose to be about truancy. Any kid could pass their badge off to another student to carry around. Lets address truancy the way we should have to begin with, and get the parents involved IMMEDIATELY. If a kid isn't in a class, the parents need to be called. Get enough phone calls at work and I'll bet the truancy issue will at least start to be addressed.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 06:55 AM

8. "what's to stop the school from tracking students once they leave the grounds?"

How about the fact that the RFID tags in card key badges have an effective range measured in inches? These are not GPS systems. I'm not sure of the type in the system at the school, but the ones that we use at work have to be held within a couple inches of the reader. I know that there are RFID tags that can be read from a few feet. RFID will not work at long distances. The tag has no power other than what it gets from the radio signal sent to it from the reader.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 10:08 AM

9. From what they are saying

The system being used in Texas could be accurate down to whether or not the student are sitting in their desks. I can't tell you if the media is portraying this system accurately or not. But I can say with some certainly that the technology will improve as time goes by. Allowing this is asking for abuse of the system.

Why even drag something ripe for abuse into it, when there are simpler ways of dealing with truancy? For starters, tougher consequences and immediate notification of the student's parents?

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:06 PM

17. Answer the question

Yes, you can locate to the desk if you have a system of networked readers installed on the premises.

Now, how about you answer the question that was asked - How does the school figure out where ANYONE is, if they are not on campus.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:47 PM

20. Rude much?

Welp--there could be more to it than RF, or they could ask local places in the area to partner "against truancy" and install more readers, or as I said, the technology can improve and a wider range will be detectable. Also, rf could be a stepping stone to better tracking technology that will have more range and can be phased in slowly.

Will you answer my question of why more schools aren't trying cheaper and less invasive ways of stopping truancy?

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:50 PM

21. Uh, yeah...

A medical facility, in complete violation of law, is going to partner to track students.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:01 PM

30. Or the place right next to it might...

But how is it more acceptable to track someone anywhere they go?

We obviously have way different priorities about this subject. It doesn't seem like I'll change your mind, and you won't change mine. So it's pretty useless to go back and forth at this point.

I'll pass this petition on to the people I know--you'll continue arguing there is no particular malice intended with this system.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:03 PM

31. Okay, so moving on to another aspect....


Do you believe that truancy policies and enforcement in schools should be up to the central control of the president?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:11 PM

34. To some extent

I believe that an executive order was just made about keeping our schools safe. Part of that should be how we do and DON'T keep students in school buildings. I am very much against using any type of tracking device (even a short ranged one) to do so, because I see it as a slippery slope to more powerful privacy invasion.

Regardless--that's the last I have time to post on this today. I find your arguments inexplicably attitude-laden and aren't saying anything more than "nothing bad happened yet so don't make this an issue."

So go ahead and have the last word.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:01 PM

11. What's to stop them when the students leave the grounds?


The limited range of passive reflective RFID technology for one.

These are not GPS transponders, and it is clear that you do not understand the technology used in these devices.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:28 PM

42. Wouldn't the tracking software alert that one student carries two badges?

I mean, they're continuously in exactly the same spot!

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:35 PM

44. Not if they are

as inaccurate as some on this board say. Although as the tech improves, maybe you'd be right. Although I had plenty of classmates who went to all the same classes as I did--so who knows?

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 05:10 AM

4. Well, every employer I have had for years now requires them too

When I leave they stay in my car, I do not believe they bother to track them any where else. After all that would cost money.
I do not believe that the school has posted a card reader at the local Planned Parenthood office.
I all so do not believe a student would wear that badge to the Planned Parenthood office.

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Response to reverend_tim (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 05:16 AM

6. You have the choice

of where to work, and that is an enormous difference between you and compulsory school students.

If this were about colleges, it'd be different as well. Choice plays a role here. And it's hardly likely that every student has their own car to leave their belongings in. Where a student goes, generally, everything on their person goes.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:04 PM

13. So why...

Please explain to me why, in your example, Planned Parenthood would (a) install a card reader, and (b) connect it to the school.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:13 PM

35. So where is the student going to run into a reader off the school grounds, that is connected to the

school system.
Yes, I have a choice. But my dogs do not we had them in-planted. If Mother gets anymore forgetful she may get one in-planted too.

Children/family members can all ready be tracked by their cell phones.

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Response to reverend_tim (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:26 PM

41. I grant my son

more privacy and autonomy than my dogs. But I'm thinking your joking there

I still see owning a cell phone as a choice whereas mandatory schooling isn't. Another point about using this technology elsewhere is that in a work place or at a college (both choices) you're unlikely to be forced to wear the thing at all times. My badge at work, for instance--which can not track me personally, because it is not connected to my personal information--usually sits on my desk, even when I go somewhere else in or around the building.

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Response to reverend_tim (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:37 AM

50. Excuse me, that's an argument against RFID.

Where do you work that needs to track y'all at all times?

Do you also have to provide your blood or piss? Would you apply the same argument to drug tests, that if you have to take them, so should every student? What about arbitrary searches of body and personal effects?

The point is that this system already has too much surveillance and arbitrary power concentrated in state and corporate authority. We shouldn't be training students to view it as a normal.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 05:25 AM

7. Is this just student IDs with RFID tags in them?

 

We had them in college, it was no big deal. I think it would be a good idea for high school. What's the argument against the measure?

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:03 PM

12. Yes

Some people think they are long range "tracking devices".

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:06 PM

16. You must be young, I grew up without such disgusting devices, you got

accustomed to them because it's all you knew.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:50 PM

22. sarcasm?

 

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:55 PM

27. I'll admit the concept of this is new to me but I wouldn't have stood for it

as a teenager. Times have changed but I find the tagging devices repulsive.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:01 PM

29. MANY retail and other places use them

So, you are already being "tagged" and tracked, while shopping, at the library, etc.

If you have an employee ID or keycard at work, chances are you are also being RFIDed.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:04 PM

32. I don't really come into contact with those devices much at all

And would hate to have to use one at work.

I was also shocked to find out how schools are about drugs now, if you have an aspirin you can be expelled for the day!

In my day we were smoking reefer at lunch!

Seems so patronizing and controlling, yeech.

I guess you could say I've been under a rock because this all seems very extreme to me but it's post 9/11 and Bush crapola
I suppose

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:13 AM

49. If you shop, you have come into contact with them

If you have a decently large library system, you probably also have, if you are a library user. Or if you use an academic library.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:11 PM

33. I think accouning for students in school can be a good tool in accounting for their safety.

 

They only work within a foot or two of a networked card reader. They are not "GPS" devices.
People that don't like it an just throw it in the microwave for about 3 seconds - poof.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:17 PM

38. I still think safety schmaftety - the percent change of unsafe isn't worth the loss of freedom

in my opinion, but as I said I might be a dinosaur having been brought up in more liberal times when we were in fact more adult younger and into adventure and come what may.. before the advent of helicopter parenting, you win you lose with either scenario

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:31 PM

43. It's not an age thing per say

I'm 27 and would not have tolerated this well when I was in school. Likely would have been expelled. My son is in grade school now, and I would not want this at his school either.

I believe in finding other ways to maintain safety and keep our kids in school.

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Response to Tien1985 (Reply #43)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:38 PM

46. Thanks! I'm glad it's not a generational thing

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:26 PM

40. I am 30 years old

and I find the support for RFID devices disgusting.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:53 PM

26. Yes -- we have them at work, too

Not a big deal. They range is very short.

These aren't GPS devices, like some people think.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 12:11 PM

10. bouncing for the noon to morning crowd. NT

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:05 PM

14. What religious theology is opposed to identification items? This is ridiculous.


What could be the reason for opposing this?

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:52 PM

24. something about the mark of the beast - they are coo-coo

she can be home-schooled

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Response to sammytko (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 03:25 PM

47. I really do not understand how anyone has an opposition to this on any grounds

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:39 AM

51. The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

The idea that human beings have universal rights of life, liberty, autonomy, security in their persons and personal effects.

The idea that institutions exist for the benefit of persons, not vice-versa.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 04:15 PM

57. Excatly how does a form of identification violate this:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 06:18 PM

58. RFID chips are not a form of identification and you know this.

They are a form of tracking where the ID card is, and thus of following the movements of the person carrying it.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:05 PM

15. Agree, I NEVER would have put up with this when I was in school, disgusting

We cannot accept being TAGGED like animals in a situation that is compulsory.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:48 AM

52. You didn't have a school ID at all?

'Cause I had plenty. They hadn't invented RFID yet, but they handed out laminated cards with our pictures. They were quite useful.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:01 PM

55. No, not in high school

We were free and unfettered, those were the days.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:29 PM

56. And I got lots of student discounts by having one.

Ooooo! Evil cheap movie tickets!!!!

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #52)

Wed Jan 23, 2013, 02:21 PM

61. We didn't & we would have found it shocking.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:07 PM

18. The petition got it right in the big issue, I think, but not the small one

This is the crux of it:

"...expelling students for a variety of micro-behaviors instead of teaching them those academic skills fails compulsory education's primary goal."

Outlawing RFID tags is not the solution, the petition should be asking for a serious re-examination of how schools implement discipline and control...

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:07 PM

19. What a waste of the White House petition feature


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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:51 PM

23. You mean, gasp, the executive branch of the federal government doesn't set school policy?


Ironically, the OP implicitly endorses a form of central government control of schools.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:52 PM

25. We have many much larger problems in education.

So no, I'm not signing this petition.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:56 PM

28. I don't disagree with RFID in school and work IDs, so no

RFID aren't a GPS system. It is a shirt-range, localized system, used ay many employers, including schools and universities. Quite a few libraries and other places also use them, you just don't know it.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:13 PM

36. No chip is being implanted. This is just more RW nuttery.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:36 PM

45. You sure couldnt tell

going by some peoples posts. yikes.

i could understand the concern if they were literally putting tags under peoples skins..but its a card..
and beyond that, theyve been using this technology for a while now..
i graduated in the year 2000, and we had them the last two years of my high school experience..
we didnt have to scan them as we entered..

we scanned them for things like lunch, and keeping track of our school bank account, and other school records...
if anything, it was only used to make the office staffs jobs easier

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:50 AM

53. Opposing Big Brother is RW nuttery?

I say let the parents decide if they want their kid tagged by RFID chips.

Who is it hurting if they decided to not wear it? Is it hurting you or your kid? Nope.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:15 PM

37. not a bid deal...not a big deal...not a big deal...

 

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:20 PM

39. I am thouroughly disgusted that

there are people that support RFID tagging.



What is wrong with you people that believe this is even necessary for business or schools? If you want to keep track of people working..what the hell is upper management doing? You work for a company where management doesn't interact with employees what so ever? Or doesn't go around to see if the employees are working or who is missing? Really? If you want to keep track of students, parents/teachers have to make sure they attend school. Last time I checked roll call is still done up till high school in most class rooms. Some colleges even require it still, so this RFID tagging is extremely invasive.

People that believe that RFID tagging is acceptable have a warped world view as if they are safer, and need to be tracked like cattle. I don't want to associate with people like this that lack the critical thinking skills or the capacity to see why this is really, really bad.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:53 AM

54. Because I benefit from it

I get to walk through a locked door at work by waving a small piece of plastic in front of it.

The alternative would be I have to work when someone with a key is present at the building, and leave when they lock the door with that key.

RFID-based readers are also much more reliable than mag-stripe readers, and the cards work for much longer than mag stripes, so I don't have to go down and get a new one printed.

Lastly, the range of RFID is WAY shorter than you think. It's really not practical as a location tracker without investing way more money than any employer or school will pay. It's used on entry/exit points.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 08:39 PM

48. bouncing for the late-evening to evening folks. NT

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:40 PM

59. A few notes on the technology

First off, like several here, I have worn a passive RFID badge and before that, one using a magnetic strip, for many years. No one gets through the doors where I work without one, including the CEO. It's just a "passive" device, meaning it takes RF energy from an immediately adjacent reader and reflects a code that gets sent to a database for the actual identification part. There is no name, Social Security or any other personal info contained on the card.

From what I've seen on the cards in use at the school in Texas, they are using "active RFID". These cards contain a battery and have a range of up to around 300 feet. That would explain how students can be tracked to lunchrooms or classrooms without having to swipe their cards across a reader every time they turn around.

It appears that at least one company has developed a product which incorporates both RFID and GPS. Whether the school in question utilizes this technology or not, I'm not sure.

more on this -> http://www.ennovasys.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=105&Itemid=495

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:59 PM

60. Just block the signal

They sell foil-lined envelopes for credit cards that should work with these I.D.s you'll have your I.D. on you if they need to see it but they can't track it.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2013, 11:47 AM

62. Why are expulsions and suspensions dangerous to students, schools, and communities

Putting kids out of school
http://www.acy.org/upimages/OSI_Suspensions.pdf

4. Use of Suspension for Subjective and Minor Offences
The inconsistency of Maryland’s suspension policies and practices in its various districts,
schools, and classrooms is compounded by the increasing use of suspension for more minor
misbehavior and for misbehavior that falls under broadly and subjectively defined categories.
Despite the fact that zero tolerance policies were instituted as a response to the threat of students
with guns, only five percent of out-of-school suspensions in Maryland during the 2006-2007
school year were for weapons or dangerous substances.43
Indeed, more out-of-school
suspensions were given for attendance reasons, such as truancy and tardiness (10,180), than for
weapons (2,565) or dangerous substances (3,984).44 Students were most frequently suspended
for behavior that schools labeled as disrespectful, insubordinate, and/or disruptive, with 37.2
percent of out-of-school suspensions falling into that category in the 2006-2007 school year (see
Figure 2).45

...

3) The School-to-Prison Pipeline
The zero tolerance approach to school discipline has also been applied to the juvenile
justice system, and the number of youths incarcerated in the past decade has concurrently
expanded. The overrepresentation of males, African Americans, and students with disabilities in
school discipline is also mirrored in juvenile incarceration. Noting this connection, many
advocates, researchers, and educators have examined the laws, policies, and practices that gave
rise to these trends and concluded that America has created a school-to-prison pipeline.55 In
addition to higher drop-out rates, students who have been suspended are significantly more likelto become involved in the juvenile justice system than their peers.56 As the Task Force on the
Education of Maryland’s African American Males wrote in its December 2006 report, “There’s
10
considerable evidence that a history of school suspension does one of two things – either it puts child on the path toward delinquency or accelerates his journey there. Suspension, then, is not
only an ineffective deterrent for misbehavior, it’s – at best – an accelerant and – at worst – a
catalyst for it.”57






It seems fundamentalism isn't reserved solely for the religious.

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Response to Trillo (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

63. "Schools are already prisons"

I agree. What's the big deal? Schools are already prisons, students are already captives; the tracking devices just make it a little easier to do what schools are designed to do.

I think the reason the tracking systems bother some people stems from their reluctance to admit that schools are prisons. They hate it when this ugly fact is made so obvious. They would like to believe that schools are bastions of democracy; that students see school as a privilege, not a sentence; that when teachers “ask” students to do something it is a suggestion, not an order. But I say, let's do away with the hypocrisy. Let's put tracking devices on all the little prisoners, and, while we're at it, let's also make them wear black and white striped uniforms and let's put coiled barbed wire on fences surrounding these institutions. And, one more step, instead of calling them schools let's call them “education camps.”

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