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Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:14 AM

Josh Marshall: "I want to be part of this debate too"

He pretty much speaks for me.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/01/speaking_for_my_tribe.php

Speaking for My Tribe
Josh Marshall
January 17, 2013, 3:40 PM 60886

snip//

Well, I want to be part of this debate too. Iím not a gun owner and, as I think as is the case for the more than half the people in the country who also arenít gun owners, that means that for me guns are alien. And I have my own set of rights not to have gun culture run roughshod over me.

I donít have any problem with people using guns to hunt. And I donít have any problem with people having guns in their home for protection or because itís a fun hobby. At least, I recognize that gun ownership is deeply embedded in American culture. That means not only do I not believe thereís any possibility of changing it but that I donít need or want to change it. This is part of our culture. These folks are Americans as much as I am and as long as we can all live together safely I donít need to or want to dictate how they live.

snip//

In the current rhetorical climate people seem not to want to say: I think guns are kind of scary and donít want to be around them. Yes, plenty of people have them and use them safely. And I have no problem with that. But remember, handguns especially are designed to kill people. You may want to use it to threaten or deter. You may use it to kill people who should be killed (i.e., in self-defense). But handguns are designed to kill people. Theyíre not designed to hunt. You may use it to shoot at the range. But theyíre designed to kill people quickly and efficiently.

That frightens me. I donít want to have those in my home. I donít particularly want to be around people who are carrying. Cops, I donít mind. Theyíre trained, under an organized system and supposed to use them for a specific purpose. But do I want to have people carrying firearms out and about where I live my life ó at the store, the restaurant, at my kidís playground? No, the whole idea is alien and frankly scary. Because remember, guns are extremely efficient tools for killing people and people get weird and do stupid things.

snip//

But a huge amount of the current gun debate, the argument for the gun-owning tribe, amounts to the gun culture invading my area, my culture, my part of the country. So weíre upset about massacres so the answer is more guns. Arming everybody. Thereís a lot of bogus research (widely discredited) purporting to show that if we were all armed weíd all be safer through a sort of mutually assured destruction, pervasive deterrence. As I said, the research appears to be bogus. But even if it was possible that we could be just as safe with everyone armed as no one armed, Iíd still want no one armed. Not at my coffee shop or on the highway or wherever. Because I donít want to carry a gun. And I donít want to be around armed people.

more...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/01/speaking_for_my_tribe.php

63 replies, 7360 views

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Arrow 63 replies Author Time Post
Reply Josh Marshall: "I want to be part of this debate too" (Original post)
babylonsister Jan 2013 OP
Cooley Hurd Jan 2013 #1
babylonsister Jan 2013 #2
Kahuna Jan 2013 #49
xtraxritical Jan 2013 #60
malaise Jan 2013 #3
cantbeserious Jan 2013 #4
Laurian Jan 2013 #5
dkf Jan 2013 #6
Bandit Jan 2013 #8
dkf Jan 2013 #10
babylonsister Jan 2013 #12
dkf Jan 2013 #13
babylonsister Jan 2013 #14
dkf Jan 2013 #19
derby378 Jan 2013 #40
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #37
bunnies Jan 2013 #15
dkf Jan 2013 #20
Skidmore Jan 2013 #22
dkf Jan 2013 #23
Skidmore Jan 2013 #27
babylonsister Jan 2013 #28
dkf Jan 2013 #29
Ferretherder Jan 2013 #63
CrispyQ Jan 2013 #57
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #43
Laurian Jan 2013 #25
gussmith Jan 2013 #35
EC Jan 2013 #31
Chico Man Jan 2013 #47
davidthegnome Jan 2013 #62
MrYikes Jan 2013 #7
oldbanjo Jan 2013 #24
Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #38
MrYikes Jan 2013 #52
mmonk Jan 2013 #9
EC Jan 2013 #32
Chico Man Jan 2013 #48
Coyotl Jan 2013 #53
longship Jan 2013 #11
Recursion Jan 2013 #16
gtar100 Jan 2013 #17
abelenkpe Jan 2013 #18
dkf Jan 2013 #21
Chico Man Jan 2013 #51
dkf Jan 2013 #58
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #45
hfojvt Jan 2013 #26
Phillip McCleod Jan 2013 #54
NRaleighLiberal Jan 2013 #30
DallasNE Jan 2013 #33
gussmith Jan 2013 #34
pacalo Jan 2013 #36
Cha Jan 2013 #39
aikoaiko Jan 2013 #41
AlbertCat Jan 2013 #42
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #44
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #46
Chico Man Jan 2013 #50
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #55
daybranch Jan 2013 #56
etherealtruth Jan 2013 #59
MyNameGoesHere Jan 2013 #61

Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:18 AM

1. Josh is the best, isn't he?

Hiya babylonsis!

He nails it - why does their "right" to own a device explicitly designed to tear through flesh trump my right to live?

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:19 AM

2. Hey, sweetie!

Yes, he is, and I really do agree with him on this.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:26 AM

49. Agreed. Josh is absolutely, the best! He's very honest and very smart. nt

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 05:32 PM

60. The Constitution says I have a right to Life. Liberty and happiness take second and third place.

 

The Bill of Rights with it's second amendment was an "add-on".

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:19 AM

3. K & R

Excellent read

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 AM

4. Like Religion - Like Sex - Keep Your Gun Culture - Your Gun Porn - To YourSelf

eom

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:25 AM

5. Amen.

We need more prominent people making this point to counter the vocal gun lobby.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:35 AM

6. Just because you don't feel comfortable doesn't mean you can dictate anything.

 

I'd feel more comfortable if all people ever convicted of dangerous crimes were never in my vicinity too. I'm more afraid of dangerous people than a gun. But I realize this isn't just about me.

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Response to dkf (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:55 AM

8. Just because you don't feel comfortable doesn't mean you can dictate anything.

Isn't that exactly what he was saying about the gun crowd? Remember the more guns we have the more chance for accidental shootings.. I think as many people are hurt or killed by accidental shootings then by criminal shootings but not a lot of mention about that....morew guns more death it is simply that basic.... guns killl...

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Response to Bandit (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:28 AM

10. But gun owners aren't trying to dictate what others can do...

 

Just what they themselves can do.

This is about what we can dictate to others about how they live their lives.

So can I force a former Felon to stay out of any shopping center I visit? Not if they have served their time.

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Response to dkf (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:35 AM

12. They sure are talking a lot of negative smack about Obama and Biden,

and their abhorrence of any gun regulations. I'm seeing it all over FB. They're not even trying to be reasonable.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:44 AM

13. Hmm I haven't seen a peep.

 

Funny thing...I don't think I have seen a single anti-Obama post. Of course our state did go 71-28 for Obama and my people keep the conversation light.

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Response to dkf (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:49 AM

14. Sigh.

I live in GA and have some friends who are 'OUTRAGED'. But they were pretty 'OUTRAGED' when President Obama won, so there's that...

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:13 PM

19. I have a couple of people who post how much God loves us/them about 5 or 6 times a day.

 

That gets to be a bit much, but other than that its more personal and fun.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:22 PM

40. It seems these friends of yours haven't been paying attention

What Obama and Biden are promoting is nothing new - Obama voiced support for a new semi-auto ban as early as the 2008 campaign. And Biden? He supported gun-control legislation in the Senate for how many years?

I wasn't the least bit surprised. I figured it would be a matter of time, so even though I have my disagreements with the latest push, I can also be fairly mellow about it. True, sometimes I do open my big mouth on the subject, but I don't think I'm anywhere near as rabid as some of the guys we're seeing profiled on DU lately.

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Response to dkf (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:26 PM

37. Who are your people??

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Response to dkf (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:51 AM

15. Kinda like smokers.

But smoking is banned just about everywhere now due to the danger it poses to others.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:16 PM

20. Maybe it wouldn't be banned if there were some constitutional amendment about our right to smoke.

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:26 PM

22. Sure they are. The NRA is basically

trying to ram guns in to every aspect of society, whether they are wanted or not. A gun carries with it an implicit threat which makes the strutting gunwielding people like that guy in the Pennys store undesirable to a lot of us.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:34 PM

23. People are threatened by a lot of different things.

 

Some goofy people feel threatened by homosexuality for gods sakes. In fact that you can replace the word gay and it sounds like a Christian Right argument.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:46 PM

27. That is a bullshit argument.

Guns kill. Period. That is all they are meant to do and the insistence that everyone accept your right to shove them into places they are not wanted just because you can is a zealot's argument, complete with religious fervor.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:56 PM

28. Spot on, Skidmore.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:57 PM

29. Seriously...read what you wrote and substitute all the hotbutton issues you support in its place

 

Abortion, homosexuality.

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Response to dkf (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:21 AM

63. Okay, I'll bite...

...the last time I was at the mall, I didn't worry that some 'homosexual' was going to flip out and start 'gaying' everybody around me to death, or that a women's rights activist was going to go postal and start preaching abortion rights at me till I succumbed.

However, it did occur to me that some gun packing....oh...., never mind.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 11:27 AM

57. Outstanding response.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:58 PM

43. Sorry, walking around with a rifle is THREATENING !!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is ridiculous!

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:37 PM

25. +1000. eom

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Response to dkf (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:55 PM

35. Threatening Guns Dictate

So not all gun owners are dangerous, but all guns are dangerous. And that point about dictating - a mad person threatening with a gun is dictating. Not acceptable.

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Response to dkf (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:16 PM

31. Yes it does.

He has that right. And what makes you think that all dangerous people have ever been convicted of anything? I know many BAD people that have never been convicted or caught at anything, but I know they are dangerous and bad ...they own guns too.


I wonder why the citizen's of our country stopped carrying firearms to begin with? During the early days of our cities it was pretty shot em up, then people stopped owning guns....why? Hummm, could it be that we are a CIVILIZED SOCIETY and shouldn't need to carry or even own guns?

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Response to EC (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:20 AM

47. We nearly broke the addiction

Since Columbine, 9/11, VT, Obama, etc. the media stoked fear has nullified any progress we made in breaking that addiction.

The real question is, how far backwards are we going to go? All the way to Mad Max / Wild West? It certainly seems plausible.

Sad, really. I think we could have taken an entirely different path.. I wonder what this world will be like for my children in 20 years.

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Response to EC (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 21, 2013, 02:02 PM

62. It's definitely not because we're civilized

Consider the Roman Gladiators. Now consider professional Football, the UFC, wrestling, boxing, etc. We may pretend to be so much more enlightened than our ancestors, but in many significant ways we are not. Human beings generally enjoy the rush of adrenaline that comes with fighting, or with watching a fight, or a fierce, physical competition. It may not usually be to the death that we compete today - and we may be competing for great fortune and fame instead of just freedom, but this is some of our most common entertainment.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a Country where there is often violence. I think people have a right to arm themselves for the defense of their own lives, loved ones and property.

A truly enlightened, highly evolved society probably wouldn't need guns. We aren't a truly enlightened, highly evolved society. I'd love it if weapons vanished, or if the idea of using them to hurt people vanished, but such a thing is not going to happen in my lifetime. In many ways, what civilization we do have is often protected by people wielding guns, whether it's a police officer, FBI agent, or a member of the military.

All that said, people never stopped owning guns and we have never had a civilized society.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:45 AM

7. a person shall be put to death quickly if convicted of a crime while in possession of a firearm.

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Response to MrYikes (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:37 PM

24. I agree and if that was the case

some of the bad guys would stop using guns, but today you can pay off a Judge Or the cops you will go free to do it again. As long as the bad guy has a gun I will have mine.

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Response to MrYikes (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:50 PM

38. yes, capital punishment is such a liberal, progressive attitude. really like the way you think.

sexy.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 09:23 AM

52. Tuesday, I understand that you are wiser than I,

but can you understand the negotiating logic behind my statement?
Today there is no consequence to carrying a gun even though that act instills fear in the rest of the public. Yesterday at gun shows 5 guns discharged either accidentally or negligently by people who consider themselves worthy proponents of the gun culture. Must I suffer fear while walking with my beautiful granddaughter. I say no. Let's put the fear where it belongs,,on the backs of those who choose to bring an instrument of death into the public areas.

I really do wish that I were able to be as gracious as most here and that I could totally embrace the abhorrence of the death penalty, but if someone were to take the life of my granddaughter, the best they could hope for is that the police would get to them first. I have struggled with this concept while raising two daughters and have come to realize that this is just part of who I am. I am a Democrat.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:56 AM

9. Public safety isn't considered a right. A feeling of living in a safe environment is not a right.

Gun ownership is a right because some on our courts decided that it is the best way to deal with problems.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:18 PM

32. Yes, those things are rights....at least according to our Constitution

and Bill of Rights....

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Response to mmonk (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:23 AM

48. Domestic tranquility?

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

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Response to mmonk (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 09:30 AM

53. Read the Founding Documents, pursuit of happiness is there

... that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness ...

Albeit, slavery was apparently central to the happiness of the white, gun-toting slave owners and a militia necessary to maintain and enforce slave ownership.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:32 AM

11. Good read, Josh.

Nicely said.

R&K

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:55 AM

16. I wish more people were focused on handguns

Those are what's killing people by the thousands.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:03 PM

17. I agree with this completely.

Living my life in a state of paranoia, which is a prerequisite for having the desire to carry a gun wherever you go, is not how I wish to live. It is a sick mental condition that is self-fulfilling.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:11 PM

18. K&R

It surprises me how many gun owners on this democratic board still argue against the need for common sense regulations proposed by the president. I don't want to live in the wild west where everyone is carrying a weapon fearful for their lives. Again the gun owners I know fall into two categories. Sensible people who own one or two weapons for hunting or home defense who are responsible. Who keep them safely away from curious children, etc. These people are OK with background checks, registration, limits on magazines. And those that fear government tyranny and resist any form of legislation to combat gun violence. Those are the ones who also tend to believe in conspiracy theories, post vile screeds against the government and/or president and in my opinion are mentally unstable. The very people who should not have guns. (Like my parents)

The right keeps pointing the finger at video games, movies and mental illness but if we are going to consider the influence of media why is no one asking why a well to do suburban mother with a mentally unstable son felt she needed an arsenal to protect her stockpile? Why was she so certain the economy and society would crumble? Maybe if stations like FOX news and right wing blogs and radio hadn't been spending the past ten years or so filling everyone with fear of the other, fear of government, fear of everything she wouldnt have felt the need to arm herself. If media has anything to do with increased gun violence (and I'm not saying it does) it's not video games but right wing news "entertainment."

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:21 PM

21. Well you tend not to be afraid of tyranny until its too late.

 

Nor collapse of government or society or the food supply or global warming or an earthquake or even a resource less old age.

I mean is it even reasonable to fear the apocalypse or think "Jesus coming soon"?

And some people would define banning guns as coming from a tyrannical government.

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Response to dkf (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:31 AM

51. Hmm...

Sounds like what David Koresh was saying. DKF?

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Response to Chico Man (Reply #51)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:42 PM

58. I'm preparing for an old age, sadly deficient in all the rest.

 

But that's not where everyone else may be and I don't condemn people for doing as they will.

Live and let live is generally my credo.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:19 AM

45. Well said! You should make this its own OP.

Unfortunately, it will bring out the gungeoneers.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:43 PM

26. "the gun owning tribe"

right there you are separating people into tribes - seemingly hostile tribes.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:07 AM

54. the gun tribe separated themselves.

 

just like that joker at jc penny. to hell with the gun nuts' rights to bear arms. where's the rest of our right to a well-regulated militia?

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:01 PM

30. nature/nurture. we were born naked - no guns, no alcohol, no ciggies, etc.....

we are born blue eyed, brown eyed, dark skinned, light skinned, straight, gay, or so many other expressions of each of individual genetic package.

then nurture comes in - we grow up in a cold place or hot, to liberal parents or conservatives, in a hunting area or an urban area, we make friends, we decide to smoke or not smoke, drink or not drink, hunt or not hunt, our politics evolve.

nature/nurture.

so many things we argue about are nurture. expressing - or pressing - our own point of view. being comfortable or uncomfortable with the choices others have made, especially when they impact on us.

And make no mistake, any of our choices due to nurture impact each of us who feel differently.

I don't know how to make sense of it all, how to find common ground.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:01 PM

33. Been There, Done That Regarding Guns

And how did it turn out.

Think of the period right after the Civil War and the gun slingers that ran rough-shod over places like Dodge City, KS and Tombstone, AZ.

The local people got fed up enough that they eventually took the peoples guns away from them. That is what happens when things get carried out in the extreme like was happening in Dodge City. And Sandy Hook is the new Dodge City. Unless there is some agreement on controls over common sense ideas to retard gun violence the next logical step will be the Dodge City solution. Surely gun owners understand this. Sandy Hook is real and raw and gun owners need to come to grips with this reality and stop being their own worst enemy.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:43 PM

34. Rationale

"This is part of our culture". So, anything that we have not managed to change for the better can be dismissed as ''oh, well, that's life". I don't buy it. Guns are dangerous; they are an anachronism that needs to be revisited on the their way to oblivion. Guns are destroying our American civilization. These gun owners are acting out their childhood games on a serious level to the detriment of all of us. Level the playing field and remove the whole lot of them.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:45 PM

36. K&R.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:07 PM

39. Good for Josh Marshall getting into this debate!

Because remember, guns are extremely efficient tools for killing people and people get weird and do stupid things.


Good find, babylonsistah, thank you~

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 PM

41. As a gun owner and someone not supportive of bans, I think I would enjoy talking to JM.



Thanks for sharing this piece.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:56 PM

42. And I donít want to be around armed people.

And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.
And I donít want to be around armed people.


also
And I donít want to be around armed people.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:00 AM

44. Thanks- great article, my tribe! nt

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:21 AM

46. K&R

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:28 AM

50. Domestic Tranquility is not an Amendment

I propose that being surrounded by guns violates the essence of the original constitution.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:20 AM

55. +1,000

In some other thread, somebody asked how many guns people had seen in the last 48 hours, not counting on cops. I can count on two hands the number of guns I've seen in my entire life (not counting in stores or on cops). Now, the gun nuts think that disqualifies me from having an "informed" position. I disagree. Indeed, it's just as easy to say that they have no bearing on the issue because they are unable to grok the psychic and social benefits of gun-free culture. Those of us not immersed/obsessed by gun culture have a legitimate claim to regulate our surroundings and deal with a public health crisis.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:56 AM

56. so let us be reasonable

and ban magazines of above 5 round capacity and bump stocks or other mechanisms which greatly increase the rate of sustained fire, turning reasonable self protection weapons into mass murder machines not serving any valid purpose, just Rambo ego enhancement.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 04:59 PM

59. " I have my own set of rights not to have gun culture run roughshod over me. "

"...Iíd still want no one armed. Not at my coffee shop or on the highway or wherever. Because I donít want to carry a gun. And I donít want to be around armed people. "

This expresses my sentiments exactly!

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 06:07 PM

61. It is the duty of the rest of sane America to take back the 2nd admendment.

Do not let a loud mouth minority hijack it.

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