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Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:17 AM

About the guy who walked into JC Penny's with an AR-15

Last edited Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Because he could and it was legal and he wanted to "educate" people?

It has been bothering me to the point of nightmares.

I am the mother of five year old boy/girl twins, and the Newtown massacre - well, I am NOT over it.

It is my job as a parent to teach my children how to behave, and I don't just mean "manners" - I teach them how to behave around potentially dangerous situations - "Don't touch a hot stove!" - and what to do if they are lost, or the house is on fire, or a tornado is coming.

And now I also have to teach them how to behave around gun wielding lunatics, because it is becoming a societal "norm" that they may have to face.

I am not happy about this, but it is now a necessity. Maybe it should have been before - the Batman massacre really started the discussion for my husband and I - but after Newtown, it is obviously not optional anymore.

We don't have guns in our house. My father had guns - a couple of hunting rifles and a pistol at one point when his work with law enforcement caused him to be threatened (he wasn't law enforcement, but he helped put bad guys in jail, and they didn't like it) - but they were kept put away, out of sight. I am not a "hunter" person, so other than sixth grade "hunter safety", guns are not a part of my life, AND I LIKE IT THAT WAY.

Guns are tools. I get that. Hunting rifles are used to hunt - so why was this fool bringing one into a JC Penny store?

My immediate response would have to be "To Hunt."

I cannot tell the difference between a random madman armed with weapons and an idiot trying to make a moronic point that BY LAW he is entitled to behave like a fool by bringing (charitably) a "HUNTING RIFLE" into a place where the only "GAME" is human beings.

For safety's sake, I would immediately flee the scene, urging everyone else to do the same, but making sure my children are safe first and foremost.

I don't care if it could be considered an over reaction by this fool and his friends. I don't have super secret telepathic powers that enable me to discern "MURDEROUS MAN ABOUT TO GO ON A RAMPAGE" versus "FREAKING MORON WITH BAD JUDGMENT TRYING TO MAKE A STUPID POINT."

He is a man openly carrying a "hunting rifle" where the only available targets are people.

Stoves are hot. Tornado sirens mean seek shelter. Guns are dangerous tools; if you see one where it doesn't belong, get away!

I love my children. That man needs his guns taken away, and if the law can't do it, I hope his family takes care of the problem.

If they don't, there is a good chance the man is going to end up shot.

I don't carry a gun, but the next "non-telepathic parent" he encounters might.

ON EDIT: This is a link to the news story prompting my post. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=23769604

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Reply About the guy who walked into JC Penny's with an AR-15 (Original post)
IdaBriggs Jan 2013 OP
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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:26 AM

1. Well said. If I encounter someone carrying a rifle slung over their shoulder in a store I will drop

Everything I was intending to buy and get out of there as fast as possible. Because I can't read minds either, is he a "good guy" with a gun, or a "bad guy" with a gun? Lots of the "bad guys" with a gun were considered "good guys" able to legally get their guns up until they turned into "bad guys" by hunting other people..... So hard to tell them apart.

See folks openly carrying, get outta dodge as FAST and discretely as possible.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:45 AM

11. In this age when people walk into places like theaters and schools and just shoot away...

What are you supposed to think when someone walks into such a place with a big-ass firearm strapped to their body?

Yeah, he can legally do this. I think he and people like him have some mental issues.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:31 AM

43. I'd like to think I would plow into him and take him down

 

before he could start killing people. But who knows how we would react? You can't discount the shock factor.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:47 AM

49. I fi saw him in the parking lot i'd hit him with my car, and

if I saw him in the store I'd scream SHOOTER! SHOOTER! and start a panic. Seriously. You never know. Better him dead inthe lot or shot by the cops than whatever...

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:55 AM

54. It would be an interesting court case

 

if someone had gunned it and taken him out with their car while he was on his way into the store.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:07 AM

82. You would walk.

 

You only need to convince one person that your fear was reasonable.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #82)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:19 PM

105. And make sure to inform all businesses in the area that you left because you feared harm by it.

Especially if you have kids in tow.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:32 PM

118. You would go to jail.

 

The mere fact that someone is carrying a gun, any gun, does not convey intent. That he was also perfectly within his legal limits means that someone striking him with a car deliberately is looking at a minimum: 1st degree murder (intent and prior planning), 2nd Degree murder (intent to kill, using a vehicle), Vehicular manslaughter (in case they can't prove the first two), attempted (all of the above in case they didn't kill), vehicular assault, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with intent to cause greivous bodily harm, and probably several charges I am forgetting. The jury will return a guilty verdict on some of the above felonies, meaning you will never be allowed to vote again. This is going to cost at least $60,000 just to possibly evade the worst of the charges. Plus the jail time means that you won't have a job when you get out. A lot of business owners don't like to hire people fresh out of prison on a felony.

Also, the guy either survives or has family. Now that the state of Utah is done with you, they are going to hit you with a massive civil lawsuit that your auto insurance will not cover. All hospital costs, plus reparations due to lost earning potential, plus punitive damages, plus all lawyer fees, plus court costs. The total cost of this is going to be north of $800,000 pretty easy, and you can't declare bankruptcy to get out of it. A person's earnings would belong to the peron or estate of the person they attacked for quite a long time.

Not worth it at all.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:36 PM

121. I didn't say it would be worth it,

 

I said it would be an interesting case.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #121)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:40 PM

123. No, it wouldn't. Your lawyer would advise you to not go to trial. nt

 

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #123)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:48 PM

129. I meant watch.

 

I have no desire plow into someone with my car.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #123)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:15 PM

162. What if a heavily armed guy gives you a "look"

...and you don't know - perhaps you have only a moment left to live before he fires on you?

That's where the question would be "interesting". Why would a person carry a bunch of military weaponry into a public place, where no one else was armed or threatening other than looking for someone to kill? How would you know?

We are allowed to kill in self defence, but that requires one of two things to be successful - we have to anticipate and preempt the deadly action of an enemy (essentially, we have to mind-read and read the situation right), or we have to be stupid-lucky - wait for the guy to shoot at you and miss. There's plenty of precedent for not requiring people to be shot at before they exercise their best judgement.

Of course, if we preempt the deadly action of an enemy. and the enemy is dead, what's left to prove one way or another but a heavily armed corpse, with enough weapons and ammunition to kill dozens of people, laid out and silent in a public place? Suggestions of disturbed mental state are easily put together after the fact, and one might wind up considered a hero.

I think it would be an interesting argument.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #162)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:38 PM

164. Don't attempt to read a look.

 

There is a requirement for reasonable intent. The guy has to do something that would display intent. If he is in the act of removing his weapon from it's stow, and the action does not seem to fit, then it's possible one might assume reasonable intent. In that case my first move is down and right as the best possible move to get out of the path of his first rounds, assuming they are at me. After that,then I'm running while yelling to get out of the building, I'm also putting whatever concealment and cover I can between me and him. Assuming I am unarmed of course.

If I am armed, my first move is still the same, but I have to consider what the background and the foreground of the shot are. If there is an unreasonable chance of hitting a bystander I still try to flee first. If the shot is clear, then I won't have any ammunition left in about six seconds. My first aim point will be his right waist and the gun aim will jump up and to left as I fire. After I am done I will return my weapon to it's holster and await the arrival of law enforcement, and will inform them what happened and follow their instructions.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #164)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:24 PM

179. You have replied several times. I am not sure you understand my point.

You have discussed your interpretation of "the law" and how you - a grown adult with family who are experienced in law enforcement, who is personally trained and comfortable with firearms - would use this to identify the guns, whether it was being properly / safely handled in a "non-threatening" manner.

I have to find a way - despite the fact I neither have nor want that type of "training" - to teach my FIVE YEAR OLDS when they should run/hide from an "active shooter" situation.

(Read more here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022006470)

I have to do this, preferably before they are targeted, despite the fact I cannot know myself. As I said in my original post:

I don't care if it could be considered an over reaction by this fool and his friends. I don't have super secret telepathic powers that enable me to discern "MURDEROUS MAN ABOUT TO GO ON A RAMPAGE" versus "FREAKING MORON WITH BAD JUDGMENT TRYING TO MAKE A STUPID POINT."


I am frankly sickened by this necessity, but in the way of "a few bad apples", my perception of the fool as a potentially dangerous lunatic - as well as the obvious wish NOT to be caught in the middle of a potential firefight if someone else decides to view him as the threat I perceive him to be - means "gun fun" has been ruined for millions.

FYI, "Gun Fun" =

You have also said the man could be simply misunderstood. The story at the link I provided verifies he likes to do this for the attention it garners. He got mine.

As for teaching my 5-year olds to exercise appropriate judgment, we are using the following standard -

Guns are dangerous tools; if you see one where it doesn't belong, get away!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #179)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:44 PM

190. That's fine for a five year old

 

I wouldn't do it with, (probably) a ten year old. Making guns, anything really, some forbiden mysterious something or other only triggers a childs natural curiosity.

You don't need telepathy. There are tells that even police look for in that situation.

I would also think that he is known to the local police if he was after attention.

We have different point of views, and for what it's worth I think that if you think that you should remove yourself from the store, then you are right. If I determine that it's okay to stay, then I'm right.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #164)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:40 PM

188. Thought About This Some, Have You?


That's nice. Kindly stay out of my neighborhood, OK?

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #164)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:29 PM

203. So nice of you to self identify as a) a gun nut;

 

b) a wannabe George Zimmerman just itcting for an opportunity to stitch a fellow human being from right hip to left shoulder.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #203)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:40 PM

265. Which prompts the question--

Is Utah a "Stand Your Ground" state?

If so--following George Zimmerman's illustrious example--we are certainly justified in running over anyone who makes us feel threatened. If a bag of skittles and a hoodie qualifies as threatening, a killing machine definitely qualifies.

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Response to lolly (Reply #265)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 05:41 AM

288. Not so fast. Not if that law is written explicitly in terms of firearms.

 

Also deliberate use of a vehicle as a weapon can be very nasty territiory, all too real a risk of colateral damage.

Absent firearms as a special case. General rule is equal force defence, with women and children given a handicap advantage on a graduated scale of, what improvised or repurposed weapon equals what.

Whilst I don't know for sure, I'd be very surprised if Utah WASN'T a SYG state.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #164)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:05 AM

280. Where does "stand your ground" fit into this?

 

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #164)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:32 AM

285. You have seriously been watching to many Bruce Willis movies...

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #285)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:36 PM

302. I don't own any firearms and never will,

 

the posters above have been watching too much Willis. I guess the sarcasm thing is necessary.

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #302)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:30 PM

306. umm did you look where my reply was directed at? It wasnt you.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:24 PM

201. You KNOW WHAT I FIND TRULY SICK?

 

That you could be right, and yet anyone simply mouthing off at this arsewipe COULD trigger a SYG incident in which the shooter walks, and regardless would bring defenders of his right to shoot mouthy gun grabbers, crawling out of the woodwork.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:50 PM

225. But it's perfectly fine

to shoot a black teenager wearing a hoodie while walking home from a corner store after buying some candy.

A guy with a gun walking around in a mall is a threat, and stopping that threat is perfectly justified, or should we wait until he goes all Adam Lanza on the people there?

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Response to adieu (Reply #225)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:14 PM

304. It appears it was for a short period of time in that Florida Town. ...

However media and public attention will cause Zimmerman to face his day in court on a charge of second-degree murder.





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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:42 PM

266. Much better to find out he really wasn't a "good guy"

AFTER he slaughters 20 people in the mall.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 02:48 AM

282. Good thing no one hit any of the recent mass murderers

wouldn't have been worth it, better to drive away and ignore the guy with the guns

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #118)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:20 PM

305. Clever sig line.

I'm convinced!

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:30 PM

182. Please tell the court, Mr UnrepentantLiberal ...

... why you felt the need to run down a plainclothes police officer in the parking lot?

Rule 4. Always be sure of your target!

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #182)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:44 PM

267. A plainclothes police officer?

Casually carrying around a rifle slung on his back?

Um--right.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:26 PM

180. I drive a school bus and if I saw someone armed like that

walking toward my bus full of kid I would not even hesitate. I would run him down. I will not take a chance on someone like that being sane. It a safe bet that he is not warp to tight no sane person would do what he did!

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:05 AM

80. As a parent of a Kid who was in theater nine in July

And thankfully got out ok, I would have called 911 first. Then part of me would want to take this SOB down and beat the living shit out of him whether he seemed threatening or not! Not sure if I could do that but my adrenaline is going just reading the story. What an asshole! And how many other idiots are going to imitate him and get themselves, or innocent bystanders, killed trying to make a point!?

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Response to nonoxy9 (Reply #80)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:13 PM

144. oh my goodness

I'm very glad your child was okay--and I hope he or she is okay emotionally too. What a horror to have been through.

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Response to nonoxy9 (Reply #80)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:51 PM

248. What an idiot indeed!

As is anyone who thinks this is acceptable behavior. I've stood firmly on my defense of one's second ammendment rights. I have guns. But if this is the behaviour that one has to find "acceptable" because some lunatic chooses to assert his "right's" by carrying a rifle into a JC Penny's, then something needs to be done about it. EVEN IF that something is banning all guns and taking them away. This act is not the act of a sane, responsible person. If you agree that it is, you need to have your head examined. This is the very reason people have to react so extremely! With your "right's" comes a responsibility. This was not a "responsible" assertion of those rights.

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Response to SouthernDonkey (Reply #248)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:56 AM

292. I agree with SouthernDonkey

"...This act is not the act of a sane, responsible person...." is a reasonable statement, imho.
I believe that yelling 'this guy's gotta gun' is what a reasonable, responsible person would do seeing anyone walking around a store or mall armed like this should do.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:17 PM

104. IMO a person carrying a rifle openly into an area filled with people is a bad guy.

If the rifle is in a case that would be different. But once the person removes the rifle from the casing all bets are off if there is no justifiable reason.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #104)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:38 PM

122. He doesn't have to justify anything

 

He doesn't owe you a thing. As long as he is within the law, the law will leave him alone. I have carried rifles into areas filled with people and not been viewed as a threat, nor was I or my rifle any threat.

Yelling, "He's gotta gun" is going to be viewed as about the same as yelling, "Fire" in a theater. It is a deliberate attempt to cause an unwarranted panic and it will be dealt with in the same manner.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:44 PM

127. If someone had yelled "he's got a gun!" when Adam Lanza entered Sandy Hook,

would that have been a deliberate attempt to cause an unwarranted panic?

When this guy entered JC Penney with his rifle and his sidearm, how were people supposed to know he wasn't there to cause trouble?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #127)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:55 PM

134. Adam Lanza...

 

Adam Lanza was outside the law when he decided to murder his mother and steal her guns. When he entered Sandy Hook Elementary and was not identifiable as a uniformed law enforcement officer he was a clear threat, in violation of multiple state and federal laws.

I am sure someone probably did yell "he's got a gun!" for all the good that did. I am also fairly certain that he entered brandishing weapons which certainly conveys intent.

The guy in the JC Penney in Utah is not in violation of any laws. All of his weapons were stowed on his person. The pictures of him do not make him seem threatening. Apparent ability does not convey intent.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #134)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:24 PM

148. So if a guy walks into an Elementary School with an AR-15

Everybody should treat it as perfectly legal and normal until he starts to take aim?

If he walked into my school, I don't care how he is carrying it, I'm hitting him with the nearest, nastiest blunt instrument I can find, and not stopping until he is completely incapacitated.

The NRA seems to believe there should be no "Gun Free Zones"


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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #148)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:44 PM

191. Carrying a gun into a school zone is a federal offense

Has been since 1990.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #191)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:55 PM

195. If the gun is moved in or affects interstate commerce

It had to be amended after U.S. v. Lopez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

I don't think I would take the time worrying about whether the weapon was involved in "Interstate Commerce".

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #191)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:55 PM

196. Carrying guns into Penneys isn't a Federal offense.

So if Adam Lanza had walked into Penneys with guns stowed all over his "person," then that would have been perfectly fine, right? No threat at all. . . .

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #196)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:51 PM

268. Exactly.

What weird defenses we have here.

Lanza had already broken the law by killing his mother, so he doesn't count. Should we politely ask gun-toting jerks whether they've just killed somebody before we alert people in the vicinity that a nut with a rifle is in the area?

As for shouting fire in a theater--it's only a problem if THERE ISN'T REALLY A FIRE. If you do see a fire, I would hope you would alert people. If you do see someone with a gun, is it now supposed to be an offense to tell people?

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #134)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:32 PM

150. JC Penny should say not in our stores. Bad for business.

I would not shop anywhere there are people with assault weapons walking around.

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Response to klyon (Reply #150)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:08 PM

158. Isnt that sad

Now we need "Please dont come in our store with an assault rifle strapped to your back"

I wish the world ended in December!

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #158)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:51 PM

168. It's a very common sight in Oklahoma

To see stickers on front doors of businesses, with "no gun" symbol on them, and inscription "No weapons allowed."
They're everywhere... stores, restaurants, even churches.

Boy, that'll deter someone hell bent on a shooting rampage.

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #168)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:27 PM

181. The purpose of those stickers is to prevent idiots trying to make stupid "points"

from coming in and scaring paying customers away. But I'm pretty sure you knew that.

I don't have a sign like that in my cat hospital, but if this crap keeps up you'll see one.

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #168)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:53 PM

239. I have family in Oklahoma

who work in retail. The point of the sticker is so that someone doesn't come in with a weapon just because they can or to make a point, as the person did at Penney's. If you enter a store with a weapon you can be shown out the door. If you refuse then you are trespassing and the police will be notified.

No, it won't stop an idiot hell-bent on shooting a place up but it will stop someone else from walking into Target, waving their gun around while asking about where they can buy bullets. (And yes, it has happened.)

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #168)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:08 AM

290. That was dumb...eom

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Response to klyon (Reply #150)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:49 PM

237. Target does say just that.

I have family working in security at a Target and they've been informed that it's a no gun zone at all stores.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #134)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:37 PM

186. So, the pre-req to being a "threat" when carrying guns in a forum is to have shot someone first

and the gun(s) must be stolen? Is that what you're saying? How in the hell does anybody know that when they see Bozo brandishing his big-ass firearm?

I'm being sarcastic, but if I see someone carrying an assault rifle or whatever weapon into a public forum, I'm going to take action, especially with what has happened around this country recently. Because, I don't know what that person's intentions are, but I do know and see he's carrying a deadly weapon in an improper forum

I'm sorry, but this goof who was hauling his weapon to a mall has some mental issues. Anyone who feels like he needs to display something like that in a mall or similar setting, knowing it would intimidate and scare many of those who see this, is not mentally responsible enough to own such a piece of equipment.

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Response to bulloney (Reply #186)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:57 PM

226. And it's a small act of terrorism.

"I will instill fear in you at random to make a political point"

That's small-time terrorism.

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Response to FredStembottom (Reply #226)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:55 PM

269. Yep.

But of course, nobody with that sort of domineering, controlling personality who thinks it's fun to terrify people to make a point would ever, ever do something stupid and dangerous with that gun.

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Response to lolly (Reply #269)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:05 PM

303. Nope. Never.

They would never put their sociopathic belligerence into action.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #134)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:52 PM

194. So if Adam Lanza had just walked into PENNEYS with his "guns stowed on his person"

he wouldn't have been a threat to anyone?

The same Adam Lanza who coldly mowed down dozens of Sandy Hook school children and teachers?

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:54 PM

133. People don't have the right to LEAVE?

Imagine if half the store left when they saw him? The business will lose money by that. Maybe they cannot bar his gun from the store, but they certainly can ban HIM from it. He is a disruption to their business.

I actually like the idea of open carry because that gives me the option of staying away from people carrying guns in public. Don't I have the right to associate with whom I choose? I choose not to with people carrying guns.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #133)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:00 PM

138. But they apparently didn't

 

One has the right to leave. One does not have the right to attempt to cause a panic in the process.

The fact is that the clerks don't seem upset. It is a safe bet store security had moved in near to him and they didn't do anything. The reality is that the guy was not a threat. He conducted whatever business he was there for and left.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #138)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:21 PM

146. If any of the patrons had children with them they would be irresponsible parents

and would have no legal right for action against the store or the fool.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #146)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:33 PM

151. They would have had to make a proper threat determination

 

I would have looked at the guy to determine what threat value to assign. After assuming his actions were no different than any other customer in the store I would have made a note to watch him but not assign any threat. I am the son and nephew of a lot of law enforcement officers. I have a CCW due to those facts and I'm well aware of what I can and can not do, and I am always scanning my surroundings.

You say he is a fool, based on a picture. There is a lot of missing information that the picture simply is not giving.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #133)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:18 PM

145. Based on what I could find for Utah the businesses can bar patrons with firearms.

They just have to post it.

Even then, the question should be whether that firearm was loaded. If so, that was illegal in Utah. I would consider reporting him as possibly crazy either under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. It is illegal in Utah to carry a firearm under those circumstances. Hassle the shit out of the guy as much as possible.

If he had on his person an unloaded rife what good does that do?

He also needs to carry his permit with him.

Would he in violation of Utah law by being in the presence of two or more persons exhibiting any firearm in "angry and threatening manner"? People can be angry without showing their emotion too. Everything I find points to a requirement that concealed carry must be out of sight or encased and unloaded. He failed on both points.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #133)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:39 PM

234. It would be pretty hard for someone to conceal carry an assault rifle on his person.

Don't you think?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #234)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:04 PM

242. Not in the North in the Winter

Klebold and Harris.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #242)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:32 PM

245. Well, this lovely Penney's nutcase might not get as much a kick

out of showing off if he couldn't show off. Check out the photos on his MySpace page.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2220511

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #245)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:13 AM

274. Holy Cow!

Yes, that looks exactly like what turns up after some nutjob pulls one of these massacres.

He sleeps with machetes and hatchets by the bed for protection? The nightstand at his grandparents' house is stocked with weapons?

But hey--don't call him a gun nut. Don't assume he's a threat because he walks into a shopping mall with his killing machines. And don't take away his right to brandish these in public, because then you're a freedom hater.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)


Response to Zoeisright (Reply #153)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:50 PM

166. Scared?

 

No, just very reasonable. What would make you think I am scared? I also have quite a lot of self-defense training, though I didn't stick with anything enough to be considered a master.

The world is full of dangerous people. My family put quite a few of them away, these included murederers, rapists, drug dealers, and gang bangers from every race you can imagine, they even successfully identified several Cubans who were marked criminals and not eligible to be in the US. Thanks to the availability of information these days, it's possible that one of them or their friends could decide to look for them and find me. Therefore, in a may issue state, the sherriff determined that the threat to my person was enough to warrant a CCW permit. Is the democrat sherriff also a "scared little weenie"?

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #166)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:04 PM

172. Your sheriff is a "democrat sheriff?"

Hmm...interesting.

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #172)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:00 PM

198. Uhm...why?

 

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #198)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:23 PM

200. Because we understand what an adjective is, and what a noun is.

However, plenty on the right don't, and so call someone a "Democrat sheriff" instead of a "Democratic sheriff".

See, people like Frank Luntz think it emphasizes the "rat" on the end of "Democrat", so he's been training Republicans to say that for a while now. Using that here is about the same as changing your username to "right-wing troll".

But hey, it's not like you're giving yourself a ton of credibility in the rest of this thread.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #200)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:45 PM

211. I really don't follow all of that closely.

 

I don't even follow closely enough to know who this Frank Luntz fellow is, though my guess is that he is unimportant. However, I have always referred to myself as a democrat. My parents refer to themselves as Democrats. I'm even pretty sure I heard the sherriff called himself a democrat. It is nothing intentional. I registered to this site a few months ago and only came back to see what was being said about gun control here.

I have uncles and aunts that were with MLK's march in DC.

It's just this. I was raised around guns. My only memories of my dad from my childhood are of him as a cop. I learned to shoot at eight and shot in my first match when I was ten. I loved it. I'm not afraid of any fool with a gun.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #211)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:56 PM

216. I grew up around guns too

My father was a cop and it wasnt a picnic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022158695

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #211)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:00 PM

218. You don't follow the basics of parts of speech?

However, I have always referred to myself as a democrat.

That's because you're using a noun. However, you've still got a misspelling - when referring to members of the Democratic party, you need to capitalize the D. Lower-case d is for the form of government, not the political party.

Now, if you want to describe yourself as a member of the Democratic party and a gun owner, you would call yourself a "Democratic gun-owner". "Gun-owner" is the noun, "Democratic" is the adjective that modifies the noun. Because "Democratic" is an adjective while "Democrat" is a noun.

Calling yourself a "Democrat gun owner" is wrong - you've trying to use a noun to modify another noun. If you really, really want to use the noun "Democrat" then you could call yourself "a Democrat and a gun owner".

Now that you've repeated 3rd grade, you might want to consider the effectiveness of your other posts involving your interpretation of nuances of law.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #211)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:19 AM

276. Most of us here are DEMOCRATS, the same word you use.

But we are associated with the Democratic Party -- its proper name since the very beginning.

Somewhere along the way, certain Rethugs began to push the term "Democrat Party" -- but no self-respecting Democrat would. Not on purpose, anyway.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #211)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:30 AM

284. Your story is changing.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #198)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:56 PM

215. uhm...nothing, rly...just go about your business...

Btw...who was this "democrat" sheriff you speak of?

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Response to Wednesdays (Reply #172)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:07 AM

272. After all this time

You think they'd figure this one thing out before posting.

Is it really that hard?

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Response to lolly (Reply #272)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:18 AM

293. If all you watch is Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.

you start to assume what they say is the "norm," I guess.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:04 PM

171. Yelling "Fire" in a theatre isnt a crime when theres a fire.

Yelling "Gun" when theres a gun is no different. Some of us would like to know when we're in the presence of weapons like that.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #171)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:39 PM

187. RW Gun trolls don't like it when you pick apart their idiotic arguments.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:11 PM

174. Loose wheel? Loose cannon.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #174)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:36 PM

185. Nah.

 

Loose cannons may go off without being charged. Loose Wheels mostly just squeak.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:40 PM

209. No. They fly off at highway speed and cause multi-vehicle...

 

...pileups.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:23 PM

177. Yeah, thanks for stoking confusion among pepole

So now, the next time some asshat is bent on killing a bunch of people with his MyPrecious, now you want people to not be afraid and actually wait until people are lying dead and bleeding on the floor because if anybody sounds an alarm prior to that it's going to be viewed as stoking unecessary panic.

Can you gun nuts maybe go find another planet to live on and quit making this one so shitty?

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #177)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:45 PM

192. I'd settle for gun nuts finding another forum and quit making this one so shitty.

One step at a time.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #177)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:51 PM

193. I don't consider myself a gun nut...

 

That I am trained and proficient in their use, and that I thoroughly enjoy a day at the range wouldn't speak to it either. I didn't say wait for dead bodies, I said look for signs of intent.

if someone causes a panic because they are yelling "He's got a gun" there might be dead bodies but it would have been caused by the words rather than any bullets, people trying to flee out of a door aren't exactly careful.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #193)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:56 PM

197. Oh, well shit, it's so simple!

the next time I see somebody in the shopping mall with an AR-15 draped over his shoulder, I'll just sit there and watch him for awhile and try and figure out his "intent."

If he happens to put a bullet in my head while I'm doing that, well, fantastic, now we know what his intent is!

I got no problem with you taking your gun to a range. But if you're going to walk around a shopping mall with it, you're an asshole of the highest caliber. And I'm not talking about the one you hide in your pants, I'm talking about one that everybody can see. All you're doing is causing fear and possible even terror in the people around you.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #197)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:29 PM

204. If you are afraid...

 

...then move from that position. Move until you feel are not afraid. That's a good rule for everyone in almost every situation.

The AR-15 truly excels as a varmint gun. I would guess target shooting and keeping pest animals out of the crop are the two primary uses of the weapon. The M16A2 was adopted partly because of the likelihood of only wounding a human.

The type gun that fits in a pocket is the weapon more likely to be used in a crime. Far more likely, in fact.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #204)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:39 PM

208. Spare me the gun lesson

let's get one thing straight, if I ever see anybody in a shopping mall with an AR-15, yes, I'm going to be afraid, and yes, I'm going to be leaving, and yes, I'm going to be warning others and calling the police. It's downright stupid of you or anybody else to think that in this era of mass shootings that people aren't going to be doing anything else.

If you gun nuts don't like it, well, keep your fucking gun at home or on the range where it belongs.

Oh and, move until you feel safe? That's your masterful advice to people when confronted with a possible gun wielding maniac? How about, instead of making everybody else move and be afraid, you don't bring your gun to a fucking public place to begin with?

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #208)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:52 PM

249. ^^^^^

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #208)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:16 AM

275. I second that.

BRAVO!

When are they going to make good on all their threats to move to walled cities where everyone has a gun? I can't wait until they stop terrorizing the rest of us with their macho obsessions.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #208)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:23 AM

294. Thank you for cutting through the bullshit

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #204)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:35 PM

223. Using an AR-15 chambered for .223 ammunition as a "varmint gun" is kind of like using a sledgehammer

to kill a cockroach.

It's far more than what's necessary.

The M16A2 (and it's predecessors the M16 and M16A1) were chosen for the fact that they were light and that their high velocity round would be more accurate and would, in fact, cause a more grievous and incapacitating injury when hitting a human target due to their propensity for rebounding off bone, etc. and causing extensive internal damage.

It's a blatant falsehood to insinuate that the military chose it's primary weapon for ground troops because if the likelihood that it would "only wounding" an enemy.

Your information is erroneous, misinformed and/or a blatant lie.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #223)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:16 PM

230. one small issue

if you kill a soldier, you remove one from the fight. If you wound that same soldier you take 3-4 out of the fight. That is the reason for that as well smaller round equals more ammo that can be carried and the distance that fighting occurred was at a much shorter range than was thought after combat studies were done.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #204)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:08 AM

273. So,

it seems you apparently see nothing abnormal or potentially problematic about a a man shopping at JC Penny with AR-15 strapped to his back. Sorry, that's just not acceptable behavior in public, legal or not.
Trying to justify something like that really isn't helping your cause.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #197)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:04 AM

271. Over confidence is quite common with these folks

They'll look at the stats on gun ownership resulting in more deaths, and just know that it couldn't happen in their household because they're all highly trained, very observant, cool and calm under pressure.

They're sure they can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

They're sure when the bullets start flying, they'll be prepared and will be able to calmly avoid getting shot and take down the bad guy, then walk away.

Humility and self-awareness aren't their strong suits. Even for the "democrat" ones.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #193)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:30 PM

256. You're putting the onus of the problem on the wrong person. Your analysis is wrong.

The panic isn't caused by the person shouting "He's got a gun", the panic is caused by the man walking into the store with such a gun over his shoulder. Your analogy to shouting "fire" is a crowded theater is ass-backwards.

I would feel panic by a man walking into a store with such a gun, and that is the most natural and normal reaction. The fact that most people would react the same way is why this story got such wide distribution in the first place.

There is no reason to bring a gun into a store, unless it is perhaps a gun store. It will cause panic.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:24 PM

178. No, yelling "He's got a gun" would be just an observation.

One can yell "Fire" in a crowded theater when the theater is on fire.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:33 PM

206. For what reason did you carry rifles into areas filled with people?

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Response to pacalo (Reply #206)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:47 PM

212. I was at a rifle range.

 

There were about three hundred of us there. We were all carrying rifles.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #212)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:58 PM

217. I just *knew* that would be your answer.

And that's why you weren't "viewed as a threat" -- because everyone around you & your rifle had their own rifles!

That does nothing to support your argument that someone is justified in carrying an assault weapon like a woman's purse into a shopping area.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #212)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:57 PM

227. I'm going to ask you to use your brain a little here

I know it might be difficult for you, but just give it a try. It gets easier the more you do it, trust me. Do you think that maybe the reason nobody panicked is because they all knew there was a rifle range close by and they knew that's where all of you were going? I probably wouldn't freak out if I saw somebody carrying a gun in the parking lot of a rifle range or a place near a rifle range. But a JC Penny in the mall? Bit of a different story.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:38 PM

233. Yeah, he has a perfect right to be a crazed weapons nut.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:53 PM

240. Lots of things are legal, but an affront to society.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:01 PM

241. Yelling, "He's gotta gun" is going to be viewed as about the same as yelling, "Fire" in a theater.

No, it won't.

You seem like you be more far comfortable on Free Republic.

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Response to SoCalNative (Reply #241)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:28 AM

296. Or in Somalia...n/t

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:16 PM

243. You are fucking insane.

Come up with all the rationalizations you can muster, it makes no difference to me. These are the kind of arguments that will only lead to more obfuscation and inaction, which only leads to one thing: more dead people.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:29 AM

2. If a man walked in to a JC Penney store I was in at a counter I would leave my things and find a

 

manager of the store and tell him as long as you allow people with rifles in the store you will not have my business. I would remind him this isn't the wild west anymore. Then I would walk out the store until I saw a sign on the doors states no rifles allowed in the stores.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:44 AM

9. This is what I would do as well

I will not do business with a store that allows such shenanigans.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:45 AM

10. +1. And I agree with the OP that this moron is too stupid to be allowed a gun.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 AM

64. I think he was just screaming for attention.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #64)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:29 AM

65. And fully aware that he would terrify a lot of people in the process.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #65)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:14 PM

111. Yep. He terrified me.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #111)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:35 PM

120. And that, as we know, is the very definition of a terrorist.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #120)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:42 PM

126. I would say so.

 

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Response to Hekate (Reply #120)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:22 PM

147. Betcha there are federal anti-terrorist laws that would fit the bill on that.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:50 AM

16. 100% correct

I am terrified of all guns

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Response to malaise (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:23 AM

63. me too. Your rights to carry a gun shouldn't trump my rights of having you shop in a store with a

 

rifle. This isn't the wild west. We need to be reasonable.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:16 AM

88. Even the wild west wasn't that way

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:15 PM

103. Dang! Those were the good old days?

I would leave the store immediately too and not come back. Ever.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:21 PM

106. This needs to be shown more.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:16 PM

112. I guess they had enough of the nuts and fruits just like we are over them.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #112)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:26 PM

117. I see it more as the transition between civilized and uncivilized

The gun nut wet dream of people dueling it out in the streets just isn't historically accurate and is a reflection of B movie dramatization of the old West. People were generally ambushed in some way. So yeah, it didn't take much of that shit before people had their fill of it. Dodge City, Tombstone, Deadwood, and many other famously mean old West towns had very strict 19th century gun control statutes that would make the NRA freak the fuck out today.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #117)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:41 PM

125. I don't think they would freak had it been done by a republican president.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:57 PM

170. People like this man WANT the attention

Look at what a big, brave, macho man I am. I think the majority of gun owning men think they are. Women? They think they are sexy babes and it makes them attracrive to the aforementioned men.

I agree with the other posters. I would leave that store, but not before I told the Manager exactly why I was leaving.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #170)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:21 PM

176. Could not agree more except I'd have called from home and told them why I left.

Exactly right!-- "Look at what a big, brave, macho man I am." What a turn off!

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #170)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:33 PM

183. That is what I would do. You know I bet there are allot of silent majority who would do the same.

 

All people would have to do is complain to the manager and walk out until they put signs up that guns of any type are not welcome in their stores or malls. When they see it is effecting their business you watch what will happen. I read this guy called the local police to tell them what he was doing and that the rifle wasn't loaded. But people who are shopping with little children and their friends don't know that.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:36 PM

207. So would I -- you better believe it.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:10 PM

252. Exactly what I was thinking.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:23 PM

260. You can call Penneys 24 hrs/day at 800-322-1189 to let them know you want a no-gun policy.

They appear to be getting some calls on this.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #260)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:26 PM

262. Why thank you. I will be calling them on Monday morning. I will also let them know

 

that my particular store is in a mall and I will not go into a mall unless I know it will be a gun free zone. I will speak with my dollars.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:32 AM

3. Excellent

My sentiments exactly.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:32 AM

4. I would have made my way to the

exit as quietly and quickly as I could.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:02 PM

140. I agree...

"Better Fled than Dead" is good advice...

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Response to KansDem (Reply #140)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:05 PM

142. Yup.

I'm not going to hang around to see what happens.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:38 AM

5. An AR-15 is NOT a hunting rifle.

You would blast a deer to bits with an AR-15.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:45 AM

13. If by "blast a deer to bits" you mean

 

"Be unable to quickly take it down due to the fact the .223 round is too weak for big game" then you are correct.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:23 AM

38. An AR-15 in a JC Penny, even if it WERE a "hunting rifle"

has only one available target.
I have not noticed a deer infestation at the Mall...

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Response to justanidea (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:22 AM

92. That's right

the M-16 style assault rife, using a .223 round was designed specifically to kill people by a shooter who could carry several hundred rounds for use in an assault rifle. Many states permit the use of the .223 for deer hunting.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:48 AM

14. no you would not

you would fire one round as it is a semi automatic rifle just like all hunting rifles. Chambered in 5.56 or .223, it is not the best choice because of its low power and small round. Chambered in 7.62 it could make a very good hunting rifle. The AR-10 would be better choice, it looks identical but has a larger round.

the guy is definitely an idiot and looking for attention and got it. I would have left the store.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:02 AM

59. You'd be howled out of the woods around these parts if you brought an AR-15 to hunt deer

And the howling would be the laughter of other hunters, not the wolves.

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Response to IDemo (Reply #59)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:58 AM

73. I think it's a generational thing

I've noticed that, roughly, the over-50 crowd wants nothing to do with AR-15's when hunting and the under-50 crowd is kind of into them.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:54 AM

70. Err...Sam round..for starters.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:07 AM

27. definitely...

 

Aren't blowing a deer to bits with a AR-15 .223, maybe a Barret .50 cal

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:24 PM

163. A Barret .50 cal?

Are we talking about killing deer or blowing planes out of the sky?

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Response to Rozlee (Reply #163)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:52 PM

169. LOL...

 

Well if I wanted it to be blown to bit but still use a gun, that's what I would use, as for blowing planes out of the sky....they make missiles for that kind of thing.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:40 AM

6. Nice rant Ida

No, really. Nicely put.

I think that much of this type of thing will end once the idiots don't feel they have to prove their "rights", or whatever. But even after any new laws are made, they will still be able to open carry a side arm.

I'm not thrilled about that anymore. They talk a lot about responsible gun owners and stuff like that, but what we hear about is the fool who dropped his gun on the floor and it goes off, or the fool who discharges his weapon getting out of his car, or the fool who knew for sure it was unloaded, but it wasn't. As long as our general population is filled with fools, I don't want them armed.

I no longer trust that the average gun owner is not a flaming loon.

I do believe we have a right to own a gun. For protection, for hunting, for the collector even. And sometimes I can see why one would want to carry it in public. Like if you are the guy who has to take the cash to the bank. Or if you know you have to be in a especially dangerous area. I get that.

But we tried letting them have their way. Letting them self regulate, more or less. THings just kept getting worse and worse. We are becoming a more violent society. It will only get worse if not curbed.

I think, it will be we, as a society, that has to say, carrying your gun where my family are having our breakfast is no longer cool. Carrying your gun where we are shopping, is not cool.

It's not cool, It's not ok.

I posted yesterday that I would have left that store bitching profusely, letting the store understand that if they let guns into their store, then I will not be there. Some giggled at my response. But truly if we the people, let the stores know that we won't be shopping in their open carry stores, then that sign on the front door will also say NO GUNS ALLOWED.

Either serve the guy with a gun, or the rest of us. I will no longer stay in any store with anyone with a gun who is not obviously the store security or a shopping cop. If lots of people let the store management know that THEY will have to take a stand on this, then maybe we can at least do our shopping without worrying if some asshole is going to start shooting, or just accident ly shoot us. Or at least worry a little less about it.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:48 PM

213. "Things just keep getting worse" & "It will only get worse if not curbed."

We have Fixed News & hate-talk radio to blame for this. Fixed News has a political agenda to keep the hatred brewing & people like Alex Jones & Limpballs need the hatred to keep the self-loathing people tuning in. They're hurting this country &, as I was taught in school, there's a word for that: treason.

If I had been in that store when this guy walked in with that assault weapon, I would have immediately gone to the store manager, too.

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Response to pacalo (Reply #213)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:03 PM

219. I absolutely agree with you on the treason charge.

I think it is all of our media that is guilty of reporting that has been lies and have damaged this country beyond repair. They are little more than propaganda readers.

Faux and their crowd hope to stir up shit. They want to keep the teabillies riled up hoping one will actually kill the president. They have gone beyond allowing the corporate takeover of this country by purposely fostering hate and violence.

Many on this board will way it does not amount to treason, but I don't see how it does not.

Purposefully they plot the very downfall of this country.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #219)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:22 PM

220. As a person who has always loved words, I don't use them without thought.

To purposefully plot the downfall of our country, as you so aptly put it, is the very definition of treason.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:41 AM

7. Cogent Argument For Eliminating Guns In Society

eom

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:42 AM

8. Gun Enthusiast Backing For That Assault Rifle-Toting Putz Is Notably Absent On Other Related Threads


How about it, DU gun lovers? Aren't any of you going to voice any support for Mr. Open Carry's efforts to "educate" the good folks at J.C. Penny's? Any of you have a response to IdaBriggs' well-crafted OP, here?

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Response to Paladin (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:51 AM

17. No, the guy is an idiot

attention is what he wanted and he got it.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:02 PM

139. He is a lot worse than an "idiot". nt

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Response to Paladin (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:56 AM

20. As a gun owner I don't think his actions were wise or considerate


And that's coming from a person who wouldn't drop all my goods and go running from the store in fear.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:50 AM

51. But that's as far as it goes? Unwise and inconsiderate?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #51)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:54 AM

71. How about unwise and very inconsiderate.


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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:55 AM

72. Seriously?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:18 PM

114. you not much smarter than that man

you seem clueless

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Response to Skittles (Reply #114)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:22 PM

115. What's wrong with saying it was unwise and inconsiderate?




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Response to Squinch (Reply #51)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:59 AM

74. What do you want? Mean-spirited? Trollish?

He exercised his legal rights in a way that he knew would piss people off. I usually consider that "trolling". What word are you looking for?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:09 AM

84. Cutting in line at the movie theater is unwise and inconsiderate. This was insane. No one in that

store had any way of knowing why he was there with that gun, and in light of recent events and the NRA rhetoric of "one good guy with a gun" there was every possibility that someone was going to start shooting in response to his "making a statement."

This was a lot more than unwise, inconsiderate, trollish or mean spirited.

This put every person in his vicinity in danger. He went into that store with the intention of inciting people, and it's just very lucky he didn't.

This is what sets the rest of us off. This guy has no judgment. He is simply stupid. His act was grossly irresponsible. And he is an example of the "responsible gun owners" we are all supposed to be trusting to do the right thing.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #84)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:11 AM

85. What did it put people in danger of?

I think this is a tribalist thing, with their tribe guffawing in contempt that our tribe is viscerally upset and frightened at the mere presence of a firearm. But then again we *do* flip out way too easily around firearms, for the most part. He's being an asshole; that's my judgement and I'm sticking with it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #85)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:16 AM

87. For one thing, he put us in danger from the guy who thinks Wayne LaPierre is a sensible man.

You know, the one who wants to prove that one good guy with a gun can be the hero of the day.

Yeah. He's an asshole. With no judgment. And a gun. And he's one of many.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #85)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:33 AM

95. Apparently you don't think as many obviously do.

You don't think that when a gun is seen openly that it would trigger the fight or flight reflex in many people?

This fool is lucky he didn't get shot or at least walk around a display and find a pistol stuck in his face, very lucky.

With all of your wisdom tell us how you can tell the "good guy" from the "bad guy", because I can't tell. And tell me how this "good guy" is going to react if confronted by another "good guy" with a gun that thinks he is a "bad guy".

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:45 AM

97. Well, the bad guy wouldn't let people see he had a gun before his rampage

Or at least none of the bad guys to date have.

Yes, I'm more familiar with guns than a lot of people (so I'm "used to" seeing them and they aren't alien to me), but I'm also kind of phlegmatic in general; I do make fun of friends for driving in their cars to the airport and then worrying about the plane crashing. But, I recognize a lot of people aren't like me. Like I said, the guy is an asshole, but the whole point of mass shooters is that they stay under the radar until they actually start firing. But, then again, I recognize that being reminded how much more dangerous driving a car is than riding in a plane doesn't actually make nervousness go away, so yeah, that was very irresponsible of him.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #97)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:13 PM

102. Most do probably hide their guns until they use them, but if I

walk around a corner and see this fool, how do I know he walked into the store that way?

If many more of these fools open carry, perhaps to the point of making it common, then the "bad guys" will just open carry and start shooting when they feel like they are in a good spot for it.

I remember when people were smart enough to carry their rifles in cases while in public. Everybody knew it was a rifle but it was not a threat. I think we should take a closer look at open carry.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #97)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:29 AM

278. Yeah, there's no chance he could be an unhinged nutjob

Surely we have nothing to fear from the guy who posts this on his MySpace page:


"My nightstand at my grandparents."




(Never mind--image link doesn't work)

And that's just one--this guy is a walking paranoia infestation. What could possibly go wrong with him bringing killing machines into a crowded mall?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2220511

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:10 PM

229. The bad guy is the one with the gun.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:45 PM

246. Check this out. As we all suspected, the guy is a complete obsessed psycho.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:05 PM

99. I was wondering about that - it seems he didn't piss off anyone in that Utah store. Did anyone

call the cops? Did anyone try to "take him down"? Why were there people still waiting there in line with him to pay for their purchases, as though it was no big deal to them? I see more of a reaction online than at that store - the photos show people being pretty casual, rather than running for the parking lot.

I didn't see a photo with cops in it, but I have dialup which has been impossibly slow lately so I probably missed the outraged reactions of his fellow shoppers.



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Response to DeschutesRiver (Reply #99)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:08 PM

100. I don't know anything about the community. I've lived places where this wouldn't raise an eyebrow

and in places where this would cause a stampede. Maybe it's closer to the former.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #100)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:31 PM

107. I am pretty remote rural, but I haven't seen it here. But no, it wouldn't raise an eyebrow

out here in the slightest. Which is probably why no one is doing it. That is why I don't get the guy in Utah, in that if no one (gun owners or not) cares, then what point is he trying to make and to whom? None to his fellow shoppers, apparently.

When we lived in a small town outside of Portland full time, we did have a elderly neighbor who open carried, because she hated some of her neighbors who were from "the big city". Mrs. E open carried everywhere, and while it didn't cause a stampede, it caused a ton of talk amongst newcomers who were former Portland city dwellers when she was grocery shopping at the little store there. She also threatened to burn down the mountain if she ever left, I believe so that no one more from "the city" could live there. This in the 80s, and this place was an area of culture clash, for lack of a better expression.

She basically got a lot of enjoyment out of how upset the former big city people living there got about the holstered gun under her arm; whereas the locals didn't care a bit.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:03 PM

141. Furthermore, I believe that he is hurting the arguments being made in favor of gun ownership.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:45 AM

12. It was a dumb idea

Although his rifle, as it looked in a photo I saw, was not set up to be a "hunting" rifle, it looked to be set up for "tactical" use. This would include self-defense use, but of course this is a double-edged sword; what works well for self-defense also works well for your typical nightmare public-area massacre.


Open carry is needlessly provocative. Utah has concealed-carry permits. They're not arbitrarily assigned, unlike NY and CA, so the guy should get one, leave the rifle at home, and tuck his pistol and his magazines under his jacket.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:05 AM

25. The report indicated he had a CC permit.

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Response to Robb (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:21 AM

35. Then he should have been carrying CONCEALED.

This stuff is inflammatory and useless. First off, he's parading around with $2,500 worth of hardware on his body. Stuff that a criminal might well kill him for. Second off, he's creating a scene and maybe even a panic.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:23 AM

36. Should have, but didn't. What shall we do about it?

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Response to Robb (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:33 AM

44. Many states have a prohibition about open carry...

...except in an appropriate context, such as hunting or camping or whatever.


I have no problem with that.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:27 AM

39. Yes, the point is to be inflammatory

and to demonstrate how entitled they are to do anything their twisted minds want. Is there some reason that should surprise you? They are backed by one of the one of the most powerful and evil corporate lobbies in human history, the same one whose position's you echo on a daily basis.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:49 AM

15. What's to prevent a "bad guy" from taking that weapon?

The fool has it slung behind his back. One quick slice with a sharp knife cuts the strap, then a criminal or psychopath has an assault rifle (presumably loaded).

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:53 AM

18. I think the bigger question is how to know that he is not the lunatic

about to open fire on other shoppers.
It's effin' crazy.

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Response to malaise (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:10 AM

28. Yeah. If I saw this guy I would have run the hell out of there and then called 911.

Oh wait, this is an "open carry" state? DON'T CARE. 911. And if the cops get annoyed they can lobby to have the law changed.

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Response to malaise (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:13 AM

29. Because it's people influenced by a phase of the moon that are homicidal

I thank you for saying that because it tripped a synapse, that allowed me to find a way to characterize the level of discourse driving the desire to keep guns out of the hands of more mentally ill people...

Many folks, from the near illiterate in chatrooms to well educated high paid lobbyists and politicians are falling back on appeals to myth and astrology to explain multiple homicides.

Until I read what you wrote I hadn't really found words that contrasted the reality of popular sentiment with the the careful and appropriate consideration that should lie at the base of contemplation of this problem.

Thanks. It was something of a break thru moment for my writer's block.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:18 AM

31. OK I'll LOL at your interesting response

because you are correct - I didn't mean lunatic in that sense - I meant delusional gun-loving goon who slaughters for whatever reason he chooses.

Truthfully we all ought to be more careful when discussing this topic because many of these people are not lunatics, but are spiteful, evil human beings out to make their statement by killing others.

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Response to malaise (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:21 AM

34. Intentionally or not you flicked a switch for me.

And the result is sufficiently true to be of value.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:28 AM

40. Well it's all good then

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Response to malaise (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:01 AM

76. Lunatics don't display their weapons before they fire

At least in the mass shootings so far.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #76)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:42 PM

210. They're lunatics. You can't count on any particular behavior.

Let's say moron boy here is actually in a homicidal rage and plans to shoot the woman who done wronged him, and she happens to work at the customer service counter. But he's also got enough of his sanity left to realize that if he opens fire at the door, it'll be hard to find his target.

So, stroll in teaching people "a lesson". "No, I'm not gonna hurt anyone! Honest!". Then teach his target "a lesson" involving a few perforations. Then show everyone else just how angry he was with a few more "lessons" involving perforation.

When talking about "lunatics", you can't count on any specific behavior. So the fact that he didn't start shooting in the parking lot really doesn't eliminate the "he's crazy" possibility.

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Response to malaise (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:50 PM

130. That's the FIRST question, which was examined very cogently in the OP ...

... but I think it's relevant to point out that other lunatics and criminals would have opportunity to snatch the assault weapon that idiot slung over his shoulder in JC Penney's.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:09 AM

83. Amen it is ridiculously dangerous to have that in a JC Penney's

I would not feel safe at all and would get out of there. And how do we know he isn't a nut who might start shooting? Or start shooting someone he thinks is a danger but who is not really a danger?

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:56 AM

19. this:

I don't have super secret telepathic powers that enable me to discern "MURDEROUS MAN ABOUT TO GO ON A RAMPAGE" versus "FREAKING MORON WITH BAD JUDGMENT TRYING TO MAKE A STUPID POINT."

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Response to KG (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:18 AM

32. Well, exactly. How is anyone to know that he is NOT just another nut who legally bought his

rifle and now is about to mow down shoppers with it? I'm a gun owner, and I'D be running out of that store in a hurry. And then I'd call Penney's and tell them I would never be back.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:03 AM

21. Ban magazines of over 5 rounds

if we do this, the attraction for this gun will disappear and the threat of high volumes of masacres will fade away. Without high capacity magazines, this gun is actually a gun that isjust too costly onammujnition for target shooting and too inaccurate at distance for hunting. It then becomes the rifle that with its short stock and lack of high recoil lets ladies protect their home, which is what the NRA media wants to use to keep them in existence.
We should not get into discussions of the exact characteristics of one gun versus the other but rather ban the features of the gun which changes it from a valid home and family asset usable by most weapon and men to the weapon that can fire over a hundred rounds per minute into a classroom of children. That characteistic is just not available without magazines which hold more than five rounds. So lets lower Feinsteins offer of 10 rounds -obviously proposed as compromise to the NRA to 5 rounds which actually protects both our families and those of others too. Five not ten. It makes a big difference.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:56 AM

55. This is interesting. Would you say more about this? I am not understanding why 5 rounds vs. 10

rounds makes such a difference.

What is it about the 5 rounds that makes it impossible that would not be in Feinstein's regulation? I'm a non gun person and have not heard this before.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #55)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:04 AM

78. What does 5 rounds make impossible? Shooting a sixth round.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #78)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:21 AM

90. Daybranch seemed to be saying that guns with 5 round magazines are fundamentally

different from guns with 10 round magazines. It seemed like daybranch was talking about differences in their ability to be turned into something that can be modified to "fire over a hudred rounds a minute into a classroom"

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Response to Squinch (Reply #90)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:41 AM

96. The magazine size has nothing to do with the gun per se

If a gun can accept detachable magazines than somebody can make a magazine that holds 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, or whatever rounds. If the magazines he had were five round magazines vice ten, he would have to reload twice as often. As far as what practical effect that would have in a mass shooting, I'm not sure.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:36 PM

184. The AR15 inaccurate at distance?

That has to be one of the funniest things I've heard all day.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:04 AM

22. "My immediate response would have to be "To Hunt.""

This. Righteous rant.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:04 AM

23. I feel you as I'm freaked out whenever I see a weapon in public (let alone a retail establishment).

Savvy businesses that are sensitive to the needs and attitudes of the majority of their customers often post signs.
As these incidents are on the rise, it's time to begin a letter-writing campaign to retailers and mall operators.

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:33 AM

45. I agree, but the sign needs to say "firearms", not "weapons". Here's why:

the mace or pepper spray that someone carries in their purse as defense against mugging, is a "weapon". The multi-tool that some guy (or gal) carries on their belt for work purposes, probably has a knife blade and would qualify as a "weapon".

The sign with "weapons" on it is appropriate for certain facilities, like kindergarten and elementary school. But for most places adults go, certain "weapons" (such as I mentioned) are reasonable and acceptable.

Also, if a person has a concealed-carry permit and they are carrying appropriately, the store probably wouldn't be able to refuse them service (if it's concealed how would they know? but even if they found out).

Just adding nuance ... I agree with your basic point.

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:52 PM

131. Our local grocery store has "No Firearms" signs...

... as do many other businesses.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:05 AM

24. K&R.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:05 AM

26. Better to change laws rather than peoples opinion.

 

He broke no laws, you just dont like what he is doing and thats fine for your personal opinion.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:15 AM

30. That "legal and responsible" gun owner is...

... simply put, just another cowardly bully, which seems to quite common to people of his ilk.

In truth, he did make a very loud statement, just not the one he thought it was.

Doesn't that make you the Second Amendment is the only one that counts people proud?

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:20 AM

33. Ida;s best and most important line:

"Stoves are hot. Tornado sirens mean seek shelter. Guns are dangerous tools; if you see one where it doesn't belong, get away!"

The JC Penny guy is a scary example of just how stupid gun nuts actually are. And I don't mean to tar all gun owners and enthisasts with that same brush. If you learn how to use a weapon, how to respect a weapon, and what constitutes appropriate use of a weapon, you don't walk into a public place brandishing one. Period.

On the other hand, if you're just a simple minded dumb ass too stupid to know the danger of his own ignorance, you shoulder a rifle and walk into a department store.

(And let me be the first to say it: if the dude was African American, he would have been shot dead by the local gendarmerie.)

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Response to RVN VET (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:18 PM

113. I thought that, too. Black guys get shot for carrying Skittles on the street.

This would've been a very different story with a different news spin had it been a black guy "making a point" at a local retailer.

==============

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:23 AM

37. The thing that fool likely did not consider was he was liklier to get shot himself

He accomplished one thing, no doubt. All the concealed carries in the mall were keeping an eye on him and ready to open fire.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:28 AM

41. Everyone should leave the store & not come back for a week. MAKE the Mall say no guns allowed

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:29 AM

42. Very poor taste...

 

and that personal weapons system is definitely not pointed in a safe direction in case of accidental discharge...a open carried retention holstered fire arm doesn't bother me, this guy with an AR slung over his back like a gorilla would have warranted my anger for not maintaining muzzle discipline and positive control of the weapon and for making gun owners look like douches...regardless of whether it was loaded or not....he was breaking the first universal rule of gun safety....Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:34 AM

46. The irony is that in a state with a Stand Your Ground law.

you could pull your CC gun and shoot him dead...and have a reasonable excuse for doing it...I thought he was a mass murder and felt threatened with bodily harm.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:35 PM

108. Good point!

Is Utah a SYG state? If not, that may be the only reason he didn't get shot.

SYG versus "right to openly carry" - that would be an interesting court case!

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Response to zeemike (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:57 PM

136. That would send YOU to jail really quick.

You can only claim "stand your ground" after you claim self defense. In this case you cannot reasonably claim self defense.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #136)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:10 PM

143. You mean it is unreasonable to think

That someone armed with an AK 47 walking into a department store is up to something?
How about if I had a CC gun and I drew it on him and made him drop it...and if he went for his gun I shot him dead...would that be self defense?...and would not my actions of trying to disarm someone who was doing something strange with an assault rifle be unreasonable?

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Response to zeemike (Reply #143)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:13 PM

175. If..

 

If that person had that AK slung like he had this AR you would be going to jail for homicide.... he has no positive control of that weapon and his side arm was properly holstered....if you drew down on him he would have you dead to rights if he shot and killed you. Beside if he is not presenting a credible threat, I.E. physically aiming the gun "brandishing", then merely displaying a firearm "properly holstered" or "slung" in the case of the rifle out in the open does not constitute a reasonable threat it would be unreasonable in the "eyes" of the law if you shot him.

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #175)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:51 PM

214. Well there would be this question.

If he was going into a school would it be reasonable to see it as a threat?
And if you said you saw him going for his gun could you shoot him then?...and who could say otherwise?
it is YOUR perception that counts.
Which points out just how silly these laws are....including one that allows people to bring an assault rifle into a store full of people.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #214)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:36 PM

224. If he was

 

Going into a school building I would definitely perceive him to be a threat, he is already breaking the law, even if he has a cc permit, it regulates the firearm to the vehicle in school zones.

At that point it is the police that have to decide if you were truly justified.

If he physically was carrying the gun in his hands, you would be justified in shooting him all day long, having a loaded gun in your hand is the display of deadly force and it doesn't even have to be pointed at you.

That being said I'm of the opinion long guns belong in three places.

1.On the shooting range
2.In the woods
3.In the home

not in JCpennys

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #224)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:59 PM

228. Well what if.

You confronted him and said "what are you doing"
And he said "none of your business punk" and he went for his gun...but you drew quicker and killed him...is that legal?

With no witness you could murder someone and get away with it...just get them to strap on a gun.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #228)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:19 PM

231. Well..

 

Are we at JCpenny or the school or just out in public, did i confront him with a drawed gun, or did I just walk up to him and say "wtf dude"?

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #231)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:36 PM

232. Any public place.

And the rest is the story you get to tell, cause he is dead and can't tell his.
But if I were telling it I guess I would say I asked him what he was doing and he became agitated and went for his gun....I was quicker and shot him before he could shoot me.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #232)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:30 PM

244. If thats...

 

The case then you would be in my opinion, but then again one would question your intentions of confronting him in the first place if he wasn't brandishing his weapon or doing anything illegal in the first place, you technically initiated the situation by questioning him. IMHO if you merely asked out of concern and he tried to shoot you then you would be in the right, if you did so aggressively and were trying to start a confrontation you would be in the wrong. There are no winners in a fire fight just survivors.

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #244)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:49 PM

247. Well you can make the story sound like you want it to

Sense he is dead.
And where does it say I don't have the right to question anyone I want in a public place?
I did nothing wrong in questioning him about it...the AK gave me reason and in fact it would be considered my civic duty to do that...If he has the right to inappropriate behaviour I have the right to question it.
And when he made a move for his gun he threatened my life.
and sense there are no winners in a fire fight then it is important to get the draw on them.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #247)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:16 PM

254. You need to make sure your "story" matches

the forensic evidence and the witnesses.

> And where does it say I don't have the right to question anyone I want in a public place?

You have every right to question him as he has every right to ignore your questions.

> And when he made a move for his gun he threatened my life.

If that is what happened, sure. That is a low-odds action against an unarmed person or person who appears to be unarmed due to concealed carry.

To stay legal, you don't want to be perceived as the aggressor in this scenario.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #254)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:07 PM

258. I am not planing to do any of this BTW

This is to point out the subjective nature of this law
If I am a paranoid person and I see someone coming down the hall with an AK I might just think he was out to kill me and kill him first...and from my paranoid view it was self defense.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #258)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:16 PM

259. Hypothetically, this is where you might get in trouble.

If the rifle is slung over his shoulder, he is not a reasonable threat to you; thus you cannot legally take any armed actions against him.

This is where training is helpful for folks who carry for self defense.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #259)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 PM

261. Well how about this one then.

You see this guy with a slung gun, and you put your hand on your CC gun and tell him not to make a move to unsling that gun or you will drop him where he stands.
Now as long as he makes no move to unsling then it is no threat...so the next action is his...he controls the situation...if it terns bad it is his fault.

Why is all of this drama not the gun's fault?

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Response to zeemike (Reply #261)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:44 PM

263. In this scenario, you are the armed aggressor.

You have no legal right to make any demands of him nor to take any armed action against him since he is presenting no threat to others in the first place.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #263)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:56 PM

270. Well to keep this going.

I am not an aggressor...I just warned him that if he makes any aggressive moves I will stand my ground....if he makes those moves then he is the aggressor...
But probably he would walk away and if there were others that did the same to him he would probably not bring out his phallus again in public....but unchallenged he feels powerful...which is what he wants.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #270)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:19 AM

281. The problem here is you did not warn him but you threatened him.

> you put your hand on your CC gun and tell him not to make a move to unsling
> that gun or you will drop him where he stands.

This would be brandishing and threatening assault. (Legally YOU could be shot in most jurisdictions.)

However, you could just walk up to him and politely let him know you are displeased with his behavior, without making any threats.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #281)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:48 AM

291. Well perhaps that is our problem

We are too polite with these fools.
If I said what I said then let him call the cops and charge me...it would be he said he said and I would lie my ass off anyway cause he would too.
Bullies intimidate because they get away with intimidation...and that is OUR fault.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #258)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:51 AM

299. I don't think you even have to be paranoid

Given the recent spate of shootings and the media hype around them, I think it would be reasonable for you to be afraid this person might be about to go on a shooting spree.

While it may be legal for the Penny's guy to do what he did in his state, any Joe Schmoe carrying an AK into public spaces is not the norm in most places.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #247)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:17 PM

255. No where...

 

Does its say you can't question him, but the cops will ask and you can make what ever story you want up, after that the legal system will do what it does. What this guy at JCpenny was doing was morally inappropriate, but by virtue of the law he was within his rights. What you find to be morally inappropriate does not give you the ability pre-empt a confrontation if that persons actions fall within virtue of the law. Get what I'm saying? I think morally you would be in the right in my books because there is honest concern and then the guy escalated it to use of deadly force, but by letter of the law would you be 100% justified in your actions? Its a interesting scenario to play out in ones head.

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Response to raidert05 (Reply #255)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:01 PM

257. No I get what you are saying.

But if it were a court case I would point out that it is more than just morally inappropriate to take an AK into a shopping mall to shop, it makes no sense at all unless you fear terrorist gunmen hiding behind the counters...and so a reasonable first take on it is you are dealing with a dangerous person....an it is in self defense you questioned him and in self defense you shot him.
But there is another thing called the spirit of the law....and that spirit is to establish peace and safety and such actions disturb that peace and safety if only the letter of the law is looked at.

Stunts like this would come to an end if we confronted it any time it took place...but like all bullies they take inaction for weakness, and so we can expect to see more of this...as they start to feel their oats and that black man is back in that white house again.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:36 AM

47. Ida, if you put a note at the TOP of this excerpt,

followed by the link to the full article, then people will be less likely to assume you wrote it. I also like to use a "blockquote" tag, to set off my own note from the material I am quoting. (Actually, I also use a different font color to set off quoted material, since people often skim too fast and miss the note about its being someone else's writing.)

Putting the link after a long passage, with no note at all, though, pretty much guarantees that many will mistakenly assume you wrote it, leaving you to post endless disclaimers.


ON EDIT: Of course, even with such precautions you won't prevent every person who responds from mistaking the quote for your own writing, but you will significantly reduce the number of times you have to correct the mistake.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:41 AM

48. I did write it. The link is to a news story about the guy with the AR-15

at JC Penny's. Apologies for the confusion.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #48)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:51 AM

52. AHHHH--MY mistake, then!

To prevent fools like me from NOT giving you the credit you deserve (for what IS atruly righteous rant!), then maybe a note after the writing to let us know the link is just for background info.

Truly, the best explanation I've seen thus far for why the idiots should keep their coc--oops, sorry, I mean their gun tucked away out of sight in most public places.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:54 AM

53. It was my fault for not being clear, and I immediately

Edited the original post to clarify the point.

Thank you for the compliments!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:47 AM

50. All fairly reasonable points in the wake of something like this

but at some point one must actually weigh the risks to ourselves and our children. I mean the actual odds of various dangers should have some place in the evaluation of risk. I have a slightly different life's experience which drives me to respond to specific types of threats differently than the author here.

I grew up hunting and fishing within 1/2 mile from my house. It was a great childhood filled with anticipation, oneness with my nature and nature in general. In my adult life I repossessed my first car when I was 22. After that over 20 years I repossessed over 12000. I wasn't really making friends out there, but my style was polar opposite of what people think after watching the repo series'. In addition to repossessing cars I was a licensed detective and participated in many civil and criminal cases. Part of my job required me to carry a gun. I worked with a team who worked as body guards and executed post judgement collection orders..again making enemies in a world of less than stellar citizens.

I worked on many criminal defense cases which I knew in my heart my client was guilty, but my job was to uncover evidence to assist in the person's defense, not to find evidence pointing to my client. I developed a strong advocacy for civil libertarian causes..to the point of accepting cases of the most deplorable people imaginable..people who were accused of horrible things or who had repulsive beliefs..people who even the courts couldn't find anyone willing to work on their defense. I know people who I believe have committed unspeakable acts who are not in custody. Then came the most challenging case of my career. What made this case different than the rest was the prior knowledge of details of the case because of it's proximity to me..less than 2 miles away two armed men entered a house with 3 young couples..pacifists who had done nothing but good in their lives. The 2 men repeatedly raped the women and locked the men into a closet. The 6 people ultimately submitted believing the men would eventually leave..after the men had robbed the people by taking them one by one to an ATM, they loaded them all in a vehicle and took them to a remote spot and summarily executed them by shooting them in the head.. all died but one woman survived. Her story was so very shocking it chilled me to the bone. I received the call to assist in the defense of these two animals. I couldn't do it..I declined the case and later that year quit doing criminal defense, and within 4 years was completely out of this business. I love what I do now...caring for people who love me and appreciate what I do for them. The residual of my previos life however still haunts me. I no longer carry a gun, but do remain armed in my home and likely always will.

During this time I and my wife raised 2 children. We live in tornado alley so we had a plan for tornadoes and our kids knew what to do to stay safe. We had a plan for fire, power outage, snowed in, and for home invasion. We had occasional drills for each of these risks. We didn't dwell on any of these things beyond making sure our kids knew the likelihood any of these things would happen was remote, but possible. We also made a plan for scenarios outside the home. Auto accidents and confrontation with criminals of different sorts. Again, being sure to temper the plans with the reality of the chances we would need to act on our plans. I made enemies who took what I was charged with doing very personally, so the chances we would be confronted were probably greater than others.

My life's experience has lead me to believe in keeping defensive guns in my home, and can understand the desire to carry outside the home...though I haven't for several years now. I have no problem with concealed carry..the chances of being harmed by a concealed carrier is less than the pubic in general, for the fact they are supposed to be a group who is devoid of people convicted of felonies, and have not been found mentally incompetent, or had convictions for domestic violence.

Bottom line, yes there is danger we are all subject to become victims of..we should be somewhat prepared..many dangers are far more likely than being shot at the JC Penneys...going through life scared and going through life cautious are 2 different things..don't instill fear of society in your children..teach them reality and caution..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:04 AM

77. You are describing the case that occurred some years ago in Wichita.

I live in Kansas, too, and I must admit that the case is still one of the most horrendous I have ever heard. From time to time I still think about it, though I do not want to. It just floats to the top of my mind when I am thinking about how depraved humans can be.

I am glad you refused to assist in the defense of those two guys. I don't think you woudl ever be able to get it out of your mind if you had helped their defense. I wasn't in any way involved in the case, yet I still find it disturbing my thoughts sometimes, even after all these years.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #77)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:15 PM

161. Yep..

part of working these cases involved reviewing all evidence. There are some things you can't un-see. This is one of those cases. It was bad enough hearing about it.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:56 AM

56. Well said IdaBriggs,

very well said indeed.

***I don't have super secret telepathic powers that enable me to discern "MURDEROUS MAN ABOUT TO GO ON A RAMPAGE" versus "FREAKING MORON WITH BAD JUDGMENT TRYING TO MAKE A STUPID POINT." ***



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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:00 AM

57. K&R

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:01 AM

58. +1000

You raised some excellent points.

People with guns don't wear white hats or black hats so we can easily tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys." We have to assume the worst, and act accordingly to protect our children and ourselves. Failing to do so could result in death.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:11 AM

60. One of the best thing about my state is that you cannot carry at all!

And you have to jump through hoops to even buy a gun. My neighbor hunts on his upstate property and he and his friends carry their guns from their house to their truck in obviously locked cases. If ever state had laws like ours it would be a safer country and the gun industry would be bitched slapped back into place.

The gun crimes committed here are usually with weapons from down South.

The man who entered JC Pennys carrying his gun would be immediately arrested and bail would be unlikely.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:13 AM

61. Really excellent post. Correct on every point. The man is mad, this is madness.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:13 AM

62. This IS terrorism... and should not be considered acceptable behavior in any community

thanks for the clear-eyed analysis IdaBriggs.

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Response to Agony (Reply #62)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:17 AM

89. "This IS terrorism."

Bingo.

Now, what would be funny would be if another idiot decided to take him out to be the "good guy with a gun".

Nice to know we live in a country where a guy can wear a white supremacist t-shirt, shave his head, strap on firearms and probably have issues with gays coming out of the closet....

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:34 AM

66. I wonder what

he would have done if someone approached him in the parking lot, stuck a pistol in his back and said give me all of your weapons as well as your wallet?

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:44 AM

67. As a parent

this would have scared me shitless. I would have immediately felt threatened and called the police. Regardless if he was legal or not, military hardware is IMMEDIATELY threatening.

This guy's attempt at "educating people" was another person's worst nightmare come true. I would have insisted the police file charges of terrorism against him.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:51 AM

68. Come on..

... this is no more likely to become a "societal norm" than ballwalking is. Please.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 10:53 AM

69. In California he would have been arrested.

His stunt, as of the First, is illegal.

We need such laws nationwide.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:00 AM

75. The big clue is that you saw the gun

AFAIK mass shooters have all tried to hide their weapons beforehand.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:08 PM

157. Not Sure That's An Accurate Statement.

...Didn't the shooter near Milwaukee, at the Sikh Temple, walk down a long driveway, openly carrying his weapon, and shooting any people he found outside before he walked into the Temple? I believe the police officers were shot out in the open.

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Response to TinkerTot55 (Reply #157)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:11 PM

160. I don't know; good point. (nt)

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Response to TinkerTot55 (Reply #157)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:57 AM

300. I also think the mall shooter is seen on a surveilance tape

walking into the mall from the parking lot with his gun in hand.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:04 AM

79. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion

In the case Schenck v. United States, 249 US 47 (1919), a Supreme Court case that explored the limits of First Amendment protection of free speech sraes "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."

So to paraphrase, I say "The most stringent protection of the right to bear arms would not protect a man who carries a gun in a crowded place if it creating a false sense of danger and causing a panic."

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Response to Generic Other (Reply #79)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:05 AM

81. You know Holmes used that to jail an anti-WWI protestor, right?

That's why I get nervous when I see that phrase used.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:15 AM

86. Hmmmm

 

Wonder what Rush or Sean's bodyguards would have done if this gentleman with the armory walked up to them?

Rush would shake his hand before or after the bodyguards messed him up?

Noone, I mean noone wants this guy around them. They would be prevaricating if they said they would.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:22 AM

91. "He is a man openly carrying a "hunting rifle" where the only available targets are people"

Ding ding ding. This is it exactly.

If gun nuts like this guy want to convince the rest of us that guns are simply tools that they use responsibly, then they should simply do that, not use them as props to shock and scare people in order to make a point.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #91)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:46 PM

128. His only other stop could have been the gun store

 

He could have have been coming from the gun store and also needed to stop at the JC Penney's. He could have made a determination that his guns were more secure on his person than in his car. We don't know. All we have is a grainy picture and zero other information. Just carrying a gun conveys absolutely no other information than that.

Which is more likely, that he was trying to intimidate anybody, which it doesn't seem like he did, or some other scenario of which we are not aware.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:24 AM

93. The guy needs some good parody photos.


Let's think of some other tools that you can flourish because you have right to, you never know when they're going to come in handy, and you want to "educate" people about their use.

How about a set of cooking utensils? Because you never know when you're going to be invited to dinner and you want your host to be properly prepared. How about a full set of ratchets, including one that's three foot long. You never know when somebody's car is going to break down. How about some hedge clippers? Because . . . well, you know.

Why would anybody leave leave his house anticipating he's going to be shot at, and not say, lock his keys in the car?

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:29 AM

94. I would consider anyone

carrying any kind of displayed firearm in a shopping mall to be hostile. Some other law abiding citizen packing heat in the same mall could arrive at the same conclusion. The outcome might be a shoot out in a crowded store between law abiding citizens merely exercising their supposed 2nd Amendment rights to channel Rambo in a public place.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:04 PM

98. Another of the what-if scenarios

What if another gun carrier telepathically discerned that this assault weapon carrier was a threat, about to go on a murderous spree?

There's no clear indication that the police were called. Now that's sick.

And why are law enforcement officials nationwide not up in arms about this development?

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:08 PM

101. This was my comment on the Raw Story article about it:

If he had been an Arab in full Bedouin dress and headgear, would they have been so casual? How does anyone know the armed man doesn't have mental problems, and won't suddenly turn and open fire on the public? They don't. I don't care that he may have every legal right to walk around armed like that. That fact that he wants to is enough to make me want to not be anywhere near him, or in a state that permits him to walk around like that.

It's a fair bet that Al Qaeda won't be sending an armed man walking into an American shopping mall prepared to kill a bunch of strangers. It is a matter of recent history that armed American white males HAVE walked into public places in America and gunned down strangers. As long as no one can guarantee me that this boob isn't one of them, I want no part of a place that isn't interested in finding out until after the fact.

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Response to DFW (Reply #101)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:25 PM

116. +10,000

I think I read somewhere, here at DU maybe, that if I see two white males strolling down my suburban block with rifles or guns or whatever, that I should not call 911 unless they actually start shooting.
Bullshit.
911 it is. Why the hell would I wait to see if they are just picking out a house to attack? That would be, in my opinion, illegal and perhaps putting myself and others in danger.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:11 PM

109. I wish I could rec this post a million times a million.

I am still not over Newtown. Yesterday I lost it while I was sitting out back enjoying the gorgeous weather, when I thought of those little kids. The youngest had eleven gunshot wounds. Eleven. From a fucking gun.

Guns are tools. I get that. Hunting rifles are used to hunt - so why was this fool bringing one into a JC Penny store?

My immediate response would have to be "To Hunt."

I cannot tell the difference between a random madman armed with weapons and an idiot trying to make a moronic point that BY LAW he is entitled to behave like a fool by bringing (charitably) a "HUNTING RIFLE" into a place where the only "GAME" is human beings.

For safety's sake, I would immediately flee the scene, urging everyone else to do the same, but making sure my children are safe first and foremost.



That that fucking fool has the right to carry that into the public sphere . . .

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:13 PM

110. You can't yell "Fire" in a theater.

You have the RIGHT to free speech, but you can't yell "Fire" in a theater just for the hell of it.

Similarly, you have the RIGHT to bear arms, but you shouldn't be allowed to trot them out in inappropriate, populated places just for the hell of it.

=================

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:32 PM

119. You have my vote. I, too, would leave the scene immediately and call 911

When 911 switchboards in open-carry states are flooded with calls from "non-telepathic" citizens, perhaps the legislators there will reconsider.

to you and your twins from this grandma.

Hekate

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:40 PM

124. It is not paranoid or an over reaction to run and hide when someone carries an

inappropriate weapon (of any kind) into a public space. Especially a weapon that will allow for the carrier to kill many people quickly and efficiently.

Last month, an entire movie theater complex was evacuated because someone saw a man tuck something up under his coat and believed it was an assault weapon.

Turns out, it was a sub, alright. A sub sandwich.

THAT was an over reaction by someone who was seriously affected by the Newtown shootings.

To react to a person openly carrying an unmistakable "hunting weapon" into a place where legally hunted animals never go is only prudent and responsible.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:54 PM

132. At the very least I will inform the store they have lost a customer. Stores are privately owned

and the owners make the rules as to what they allow in their stores IE NO SHIRT NO SHOES NO SERVICE. If they allow some ass with a gun slung over his shoulder to roam free in their store, I will shop elsewhere.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:57 PM

135. Would rec more than once if I could

Great post!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:58 PM

137. Good post. I clearly understand your valid point that maybe the kill is a crazed killer about

to begin a massacre or just a fool trying to "educate people". Just on the outside chance that he is a killer, is enough to remove everyone from the store.

Although I doubt that the store management would be ready to evacuate the store, it would have been a good idea, IMO.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:31 PM

149. He brought it in to "educate" ???BULLSHIT!

He brought that gun in to a store to intimidate and to make the point that he was a big man with a gun and no one could do anything about it.

This guy sounds like an asshole just like my father. If you want to know what I am talking about see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022158695


If I saw that, I would be out of that store in a heart beat and calling 911. Nobody knows if he is going to open fire and you absolutely cant give anyone the benefit of the doubt now.

He is a bully and a jerk with no interest in anything but terrorizing people so even if the police can't arrest him, maybe they can interrupt his day.

This jerk strapped on his gun and got his jollies thinking about frightening men women and children in a public place just because he feels he has the right to. The police should look in to his family because he is probably a psycho there too.

Owning a gun is a responsibility. It is a killing machine. Responsible gun owners should be up in arms over this type of behavior!




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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #149)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:39 PM

152. I read your story both times you posted it.

I found it extremely powerful. I was so angry on your behalf after having read it - to be honest, it is still impacting me weeks (months?) after your posting.

Thank you for sharing your story. And thank you for having the courage to stand up and tell it.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #152)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:04 PM

156. I feel like a real dork repeating it

Like "Hey look at me" which is so NOT why I am doing it. Its just that I KNOW this type of gun nut so well and when I say things I feel like if people dont know who I am they don't know I KNOW what I am talking about.

THis post got me SO angry I didnt know what to think~!!!

I dont know if this guy has a family but if he does I hope someone looks into it.

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #149)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:58 PM

251. He is a domestic terrorist

And should be placed under arrest and charged with terrorism. Then he can have his day in court, and if it all works out and he's not a threat and no laws have been broken then they can find him not guilty and let him go back to being a jerk.

That is how you deal with these kinds of dumb asses. Call the cops... arrest him for being an "armed threat" and after he sits in jail a few days awaiting his hearing, perhaps he'll learn he's not so fucking smart after all!.

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Response to SouthernDonkey (Reply #251)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 09:14 PM

253. ABSOLUTELY!

That is exactly how these people should be handled!

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #149)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:53 AM

279. A Bully and a Jerk

Absolutely. He is NOT just happening to carry a gun because he just stopped by Gunz R Us and didn't have a shopping bag for it.

He wanted to intimidate and bully people.

People who like to intimidate and terrorize others are not "good" guys. They are the ones who will think it is funny to point the gun at the salesclerk if she won't accept his return. Or at the teenager who doesn't give him the respect he's convinced he deserves.

And a guy who's so paranoid he sleeps with machetes, axes, bayonets, and guns by his bed is not going to be calm and collected in assessing the threat from, say, a young man in a hoodie who accidentally bumps into him in the mall.

I didn't have to see the MySpace page to guess all this--the page just confirmed it. The act itself demonstrates that he's a self-centered bully.

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #149)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 03:00 AM

283. +1

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:44 PM

154. Boycott JC Penny's UNTIL They Prohibit OPEN CARRY in ALL of Their Stores!!!

 

Last edited Sun Jan 20, 2013, 01:20 AM - Edit history (3)

A GUN NUT SPHINCTER SAYS WHAT???

.
.
.
.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:58 PM

155. Out in the Open

 

I am glad that nuts continue to do things like this guy bringing an assault rifle into a department store.

It just goes to show everyone how nuts they are and how out-of-control the gun culture has gotten.

What's the old saying.... give 'em enough rope to hang themselves?

I think most people would not like to see men with assault rifles walking around in public areas.

Everybody walking around with guns can only mean one thing... a hell of a lot more shooting.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:08 PM

159. You nailed it!

Yours is the most sensible OP I've read on the subject! Wow! Just wow!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:44 PM

165. If this happens again &ALL patrons leave the store until he does,profits will dictate policy/boycott

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:51 PM

167. You made the point that I made on a companion post

If a bunch of people start emulating this guy and starts to become comfortable/desensitized to people wandering around toting guns, then there's no way that we can figure out whether or not the people carrying are just carrying because they want to (and can legally in some places) or because they're about to slaughter a bunch of people- until it's too late, of course



IMHO people should NEVER be made to feel *comfortable* around guns except for certain places/situations (i.e. hunting, gun range, etc.).

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:05 PM

173. Ida I agree with you 100%

There is no need to walk into a department store carrying a gun. I believe the guy did that just to intimidate people.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 04:41 PM

189. JC Penney's should have showed him the door

The clerk NEVER should have served him. Call the manager, then call the police, but get the hell away from the nut who feels the need to have his "weapon" out in the open. We should treat them like flashers. File a report and get this assholes name. Some people may have a case against him for the terror he imposed on them. His gun at some point was pointed at someone's head. When lawsuits start coming their way, they will stop it.

Who's to say "Rambo" couldn't have lost his gun to someone faster and stronger. Maybe that guy has a grudge and now he has the gun. This is insanity 101.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:03 PM

199. Intimidating and Scaring The Shit Out of

shoppers because he could...

If he were black or brown, or looked in the least bit Muslim, that man would have been taken down.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:25 PM

202. I couldn't agree more, Ida!

This guy & the two guys walking down a town street carrying assault weapons have clearly shown why the open gun-carry law is a bad idea. No one around them can possibly know what their intent or state of mind is. The public's safety outweighs their right to advertise their gun fetish.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 05:32 PM

205. When I worked as a bartender, I could forbid customers

entering with weapons, whether guns or knives. The rational was that it still was private property even though open to the public. The owner of the business had the right to forbid access to anyone they deemed to be of danger to their other clientele. We also were required by law to forbid access to anyone not wearing shirts or shoes. So the right to enter a place of business carrying or wearing anything you want is not sacrosanct it would seem in many municipalities. Although, I knew many of my customers were sometimes in professions that allowed them to carry concealed weapons when off duty like cops, it was never cool for them to have them out in the open. My boss once actually threw out an off duty cop who showed his weapon with no reason to.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:30 PM

221. A simple solution: Contact JC Penny's and tell them that you and your kids will not shop in a store

that allows idiots to carry assault rifles openly. While guns may have a use in society, they do not have a place in a department store.

Here's their corporate address and Director of their Board (Note: This is public information about a corporation, not private info which is prohibited by DU's TOS).

JC Pennys
Attn: Director Rob Johnson
6501 Legacy Drive, Plano, TX 75024

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 06:35 PM

222. I wonder if I can walk into a JC Penney

store with a running chain saw.

Arms, as defined as a weapon, need not be guns only. Anything that can be used as a weapon is, by its use, a weapon. So if this idiot can carry a gun into the store, I should be able to carry an operating chain saw to the store. Or bring a katana to the store.

You know, to "edumacate" people.

:grrr:

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:42 PM

235. And he really does seem to be on the edge of a violent rampage:

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:45 PM

236. I don't care.

I'd grab my kid, drop everything including a carton of eggs or a glass vase (depends on the store I'm at), run out of the store and scream that he has a gun at the door. I'd also call 9-1-1 and let the police sort it out.

It's a perceived threat in my mind. A handgun, I can handle. Anything else-nope. No way, no day.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 07:52 PM

238. If this guy had walked into the store....

with his schwantz hanging out in full view, he'd have been taken into custody immediately. Where are our priorities in this country anyway?

We have allowed the crazies to dictate what the rest of us have to live with. I, for one, will never shop in a store where this is allowed and I WILL make my feelings known to the management.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 08:57 PM

250. He has an old My Space Account Look here and

I couldn't agree more with the OP. I have two grandchidlren one 4 and one 5. They look just like those at Newtown. My grandson's school (they are with me during the day) has security issues that are finely being resolve. Look at thie below link about this guy's myspace acct and the pics on it. Scary scary stuff! I say the autorities need to be aware of this My Space account:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022220511

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:14 PM

264. IdaBriggs - here is his myspace account

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Response to pipewrench (Reply #264)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 09:11 AM

301. If this guy had been on a deranged mission

to shoot as many people in Penny's as he could, we'd be seeing these photos all over the news as evidence of his mental problems.

The movie "Taxi Driver" has become very relevant lately. Had Travis Bickle assassinated the presidential candidate he would've been condemned as a violent nutcase, but because he ends up killing the pimp, he's heralded as a hero.

The people applauding the Penny's guy now wouldn't be doing so had "the voices" told him to open fire.


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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:28 AM

277. This person wanted to intimidate and it's sad he was allowed to.

If I was the manager of that store, I would have called the police. There might be nothing illegal with carrying the weapon into a business, but there is also nothing illegal about calling the police when you feel threatened. I would then tell 'em there was a man in here with an automatic rifle and let 'em handle it.

I know someone will shoot back that this is a reasonable action - but I think this man's actions are not reasonable. So, basically, we're now going to have to wait to be shot on to react to whether the person with the gun is a good guy or a bad guy? What kind of world is that? Use common sense, people!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #277)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 04:10 AM

286. At best this guy is a swaggering half wit

who was poking fingers in eyes and telling people loudly that nobody was ever going to tell him what to do, he had a big, ugly looking gun.

While I put up with the National Guard at the local airport because it shares facilities with an air base and there's a good reason for them to be there, I don't want to put up with military style weapons being waved around by swaggering idiots when I'm buying jeans and socks.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 04:33 AM

287. I am curious about who this man was, what his motivation was, & how the photos got to the

 

internet.

It's a curious kind of thing.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 05:48 AM

289. You people just don't understand

A large buck was sighted on aisle 3!

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:27 AM

295. Oh, good grief! Please comment on JC Penney's Facebook page re: Gun Guy

His "supporters" are applauding JC Penney for this behavior!

My Opinion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022218233

Facebook Link: http://www.facebook.com/jcp

Thank you - please kick so people know about this. Obviously I want a policy change!

Link to DU thread with this information - http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022222887

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:29 AM

297. Jcpenney is now a dangerous place to shop

Now that we who also have a right NOT to be traumatized or shot must begin a national boycott of any business who does not respect OUR rights.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Original post)

Sun Jan 20, 2013, 08:34 AM

298. I hope their liability insurance is a hefty one

Any shopper who was emotionally traumatized by this repulsive and lpotentially life threatening "lesson" condoned by this corporation needs to get counseling and contact jcpenney for the name of their liability carrier....psychological pain and suffering suit will get their attention like nothing else.

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