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Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:26 PM

 

What if Charles Whitman had a Mini-14 or any other semi autos coveted today by so many?

He did have an M1 which is half a century behind in tech and the clips he had were nowhere near what is available today.

The guy was shooting at anything that moved. On a crowded campus. He was the first in a tragic lineage in which each of the line seems intent on surpassing his predecessors.

He was a boy scout and a marine, everybody loved him. He went to doctors beforehand and described his feelings of hostilities. ONCE. Then he let hell rain.

So we have gun availability and mental health issues in one big ball. The guy was Captain America until the day he killed his Mother, 14 others and wounded 32 more. Unfortunately, the mental health issues became apparent after the fact. The relevant fact is that he went nuts one day, went to a hardware store and bought an arsenal with ammunition to match and then went on a killing spree.

He had to bring his arsenal to the top of the Bell Tower in Austin on a cart. He couldn't carry it slung over his back.

This brought about no meaningful gun legislation. It seems the only meaningful gun control legislation in the last 100 years was outlawing mail order guns after Oswald ordered the Mannlicher that he used to kill JFK with.

Now there are twenty fresh graves for twenty innocents destroyed by a madman that no one saw coming.

WHEN THE FUCK IS AMERICA GOING TO WAKE UP?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

37 replies, 2560 views

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Reply What if Charles Whitman had a Mini-14 or any other semi autos coveted today by so many? (Original post)
Whovian Jan 2013 OP
Boomerproud Jan 2013 #1
SayWut Jan 2013 #2
Whovian Jan 2013 #3
SayWut Jan 2013 #9
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #20
SayWut Jan 2013 #24
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #34
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #4
SayWut Jan 2013 #15
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #5
Whovian Jan 2013 #7
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #10
Whovian Jan 2013 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #18
baldguy Jan 2013 #22
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #26
petronius Jan 2013 #28
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #6
Whovian Jan 2013 #8
Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #12
petronius Jan 2013 #13
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #23
stultusporcos Jan 2013 #14
SayWut Jan 2013 #17
Fla_Democrat Jan 2013 #16
REP Jan 2013 #19
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #21
SayWut Jan 2013 #25
naaman fletcher Jan 2013 #27
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #33
bluerum Jan 2013 #29
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #30
SayWut Jan 2013 #36
cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #31
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #32
Whovian Jan 2013 #35
petronius Jan 2013 #37

Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:29 PM

1. To answer your first question, and your last.

He would have killed dozens.
America will never wake up.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:37 PM

2. If Charles Whitman had used a Mini 14, 14 people might have lived that day.

 

In case you're unaware of it, the Ruger Mini 14 (and Mini 30), is notoriously inaccurate.

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Response to SayWut (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:40 PM

3. Okay, and compared to the M1? with the compensation for rate of fire on a crowded field

 

from a high vantage point?

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Response to Whovian (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:55 PM

9. Still, no dice.

 

According to the Wiki page, he bough a Universal M1 Carbine from a hardware store.
The M1 Carbine is a reliable and accurate firearm, however, it's maximum effective range and under powered cartridge leaves something to be desired if utilized as a"sniper" weapon".

Whitmans primary weapon that day was a scoped 6mm Remington 700, a hunting rifle.

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Response to SayWut (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:46 PM

20. The Universal IIRC is not part for part interchangeable with the military M1

Not that it matters in this context

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:55 PM

24. I believe you're correct.

 

I don't recall what their reputation was quality wise.
I remember them mostly for their "Enforcer" model, which so happens to be a piece of crap.


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Response to SayWut (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:19 PM

34. I have two M1 Carbines by Universal.

Their reputation is "bottom of the barrel".

Both guns used to be fully functional. After sitting for 20 years, neither will feed reliably.

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Response to SayWut (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:47 PM

4. Hmmm I would not be so sure of that

Comparable to most issue M-4s IME

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:06 PM

15. The original Mini 14's had a thin barrell that was prone to overheating.

 

resulting in poor MOA.
I haven't shot one in ages, but from what I've read, the newer models have improved in that area.
Still, not the weapon of choice for shooting distant targets from the 27th floor of a tower.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:50 PM

5. How is the mini 14, or even an AR-15 much different than the M1 Carbine whitman used?

The guns are both semi auto, and very similar, even if on the outside they look different.

The M16 was only invented about 20 years after the M1 carbine not 50. The M16 (or AR-15) uses a different round, and uses plastics to make it lighter, but functionally is very similar to an M1 carbine. Both are semi auto rifles.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:53 PM

7. Clip capacity, heat dissipation, etc.

 

Hell, why not a 8mm Mauser? They had what a five round clip?

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Response to Whovian (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:57 PM

10. You realize the M1 carbine had 30 round mags available right?

I'm not sure what mags whittman used, but there are plenty of 30 round mags for the M1 carbine. When the M2 carbine was invented, (1945), they came out with 30 round mags, which work in the M1 or M2.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:01 PM

11. I belive those were miltary and not civilian.

 

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Response to Whovian (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:44 PM

18. They were sold to civilians in mass quantities

I have some WWII vintage ones still in the original wrappers. Collectors items to be sure, but still functional 30 round magazines for a low power rifle

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:54 PM

22. Whitman didn't have a 30-round clip.



The rifles and sawed-off shotgun used by Whitman in the massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#August_1.2C_1966

Let's try not to derail the conversation, shall we?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:02 PM

26. The M1 Carbine is at the lower right-hand corner.

It doesn't have a magazine inserted. This is what they rifle looks like with a 15-round magazine inserted:



And this is with a 30-rounder:

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=&sa=X&ei=su_5UNvhAaTHiwKRj4CYDA&ved=0CAkQ8wc4FQ&usg=AFQjCNE6ocjcCwl7feU4JtlcB6HtIBe2qg

To the best of my knowledge, those sizes are the only ones ever issued for that rifle and were the only options available available at that time for (although aftermarket 5-rounders and military 15-rounders blocked off to hold only five do exist now, for hunting purposes).

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:30 PM

28. According to the police inventory, he had 1 15-round and 2 30-round "clips" for the M1

http://murderpedia.org/male.W/images/whitman_charles/docs/inventory.pdf

The Wiki page states that he purchased several more during his preparations.

So, it appears that he did possess the equivalent of a mini-14 or similar semi-auto, but did most/all of his murdering with a knife, blunt force, or the hunting rifle...

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:52 PM

6. Whitman had an M1 Carbine (not an M1).

The M1 Carbine takes either a 15- or a 30-round magazine, and fires a different (and much less powerful) round than the M1.. However, to the best of my recollection, most of Whitman's long-range shots were taken with a bolt-action Remington, and the closer range murders were committed with a shotgun or one of the several handguns he had. I don't believe the carbine was used much...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 06:54 PM

8. Not back then if memory serves.

 

On edit: You can look at the photos of his weapons. No clips as you describe.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:01 PM

12. I pulled up the pic. It looks like an M1 carbine to me.

Even if there are no mags in the pic, I still think its an M1 carbine. You will have to ask the FBI where the mags went.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:04 PM

13. This wiki source does mention 15 and 30 round "clips" for the .30 carbine

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Response to Whovian (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:55 PM

23. The M1 Carbine in the pic...

The M1 Carbine in the pic on Wikipedia doesn't have a magazine inserted at all. To the best of my knowledge, the only magazines ever available for that rifle are 15 and 30 rounds and either one would be visible if it were inserted. I don't know which Whitman had.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:05 PM

14. A Remington Model 700 and the high ground like Whitman had and anyone with the same training

 

and skills could easily cause all kinds of carnage today.

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Response to stultusporcos (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:21 PM

17. Consider the DC Snipers (Malvo and Muhammad).

 

They managed to murder 10 people in 15 separate attacks.
Each victim was killed with a single shot from a distance.
Both were apparently trained or skilled marksman (I suppose that could be subject to dispute).
Oddly enough, their firearm of choice was an AR-15 style rifle, however the nomenclature,
functionality of the rifle was never an issue, nor did it have any relevancy to the murders.
Malvo only fired single shots (magazine capacity and rapid fire was a non-issue).

Originally the two stole a Remington 700 rifle (chambered in .308 if memory serves me correctly).
They had to abandon the weapon in a field where they were practicing, when a person in a vehicle stumbled upon them.
Most likely a fortunate event; had they carried out their rampage with that particular rifle, there would have been more fatalities.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:19 PM

16. What if Matthew Sheppard had one?

What if James Byrd did?

The what if games can get down right interesting, if one plays it out.








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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:45 PM

19. Remington 700 is a high powered rifle; it's an excellent sniper's rifle

Ask the Army.

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Response to REP (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:47 PM

21. A might fine one indeed

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Response to REP (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:01 PM

25. M24 Sniper Weapon System

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System

It is an excellent snipers rifle, but of course it's only as good as the person pulling the trigger; that and
quality hand loaded ammo.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:29 PM

27. Of much rather he had a mini-14

 

The .223 is far less leathal than the bolt action he used.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #27)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:47 PM

33. I was thinking that, too

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:32 PM

29. Balloon. Lead variety.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:34 PM

30. Probably fewer people would have died that day.

 

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a MARINE and his rifle!" - General Perching

The M1 used by Whitman is far more powerful as well as more accurate than a Ruger mini-14.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:24 PM

36. And here all this time I thought it was Gunnery Sgt. Hartman that said that.

 

Thanks for the correction.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:37 PM

31. Rate of fire is not a big issue for snipers

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:46 PM

32. He did have semi automatics with high capacity magazines

As well as an excellent sniper's rifle, several handguns, and, I believe a shotgun. I need to check the shotgun.

If memory of a History Channel special is accurate, he bought the m1 CARBINE (not M1) in a local hardware store.

Props to the very brave people who tried to stop him, and extra props to those who did.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:23 PM

35. Kudos to the nod to the History Channel. Home of Alien Homesteaders.

 

No, he didn't.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:28 PM

37. I posted a link to the police inventory of his possessions in Post 28

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