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Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:39 PM

Just askin'




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37 replies, 2276 views

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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply Just askin' (Original post)
madamesilverspurs Jan 2013 OP
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #1
patrice Jan 2013 #6
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #7
patrice Jan 2013 #15
jmg257 Jan 2013 #11
patrice Jan 2013 #12
jmg257 Jan 2013 #14
patrice Jan 2013 #17
jmg257 Jan 2013 #19
patrice Jan 2013 #24
patrice Jan 2013 #25
jmg257 Jan 2013 #27
jmg257 Jan 2013 #26
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #20
jmg257 Jan 2013 #21
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #23
Politicub Jan 2013 #30
jmg257 Jan 2013 #32
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #2
hrmjustin Jan 2013 #3
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #4
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #8
socialindependocrat Jan 2013 #10
Blanks Jan 2013 #16
Politicub Jan 2013 #31
jmg257 Jan 2013 #33
Politicub Jan 2013 #34
jmg257 Jan 2013 #35
Politicub Jan 2013 #36
jmg257 Jan 2013 #37
patrice Jan 2013 #5
BadgerKid Jan 2013 #9
jmg257 Jan 2013 #13
Dpm12 Jan 2013 #18
lobodons Jan 2013 #22
bongbong Jan 2013 #28
billh58 Jan 2013 #29

Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:41 PM

1. I'm guessing they sort of go with the 'shall not be infringed' part of that.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:52 PM

6. It is possible to logically say that the main clause is, "A well regulated militia...shall not be

infringed" and the other two clauses are subordinates modifying that main clause.

I am told that someone has legally decided that that 3rd comma, in the original, is not there, but I also hear that our attitude toward this and the whole Constitution is a living process which adapts to our needs, rather than oppresses us with absolutist tendencies toward fascism (from whatever political direction) that was never intended in the first place, so if it can be decided that that 3rd comma isn't there, it can also be decided that it is there.

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Response to patrice (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:56 PM

7. I'm not sure the careful parsing matters...they just need something to which they can cling

And relatively recent SCOTUS rulings make looking at critical editions of the amendment or BOR sort of moot.

In my life we've gone from a nation that required shotguns transported in cars to be in their cases (so people couldn't easily hunt from cars...which means on or near roads...to a nation where you can strap on your AR-15 as an accessory for going to the Mall.

It's not the document that's flawed.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:22 PM

15. Well, there are no perfect words, that means the ability to think is paramount. Thinking is NOT what

we have going on here, ergo, people are afraid of what's happening and they indulge knee-jerk responses for what they mistakenly assume is the "most effective" response, guns. Fear begets fear and the inevitable result is violence. Violence is the maximum oppressor and it is being claimed as a unilateral privilege to engage in certain activities against our collective representation, right or wrong, the government, without even asking anyone else whether we want that sort of thing to happen or not. FACT: there are people who express the intention of killing for guns, NOT any of the secondary issues that may or may not be mentioned, but killing for the means to assert WHATEVER with a gun. period. That is tyranny. Flawed though it may be, I at least have some modicum of influence, and if I work hard enough even actual control, over my government. I have NO control over militias who will kill for the means to assert whatever WITH A GUN.

It's also interesting that gunarians insist the Constitution means this or that AND they almost always delete any reference to "well regulated" in the 2nd Amendment.

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Response to patrice (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:05 PM

11. This is always the silliest argument...I just don't get how people think like this...

based on commas. Some goofy shit right there.

And IF they do for soem reason, it is just way too easy to see how the amendment was originally presented & modified before ratification to see it means just what it says - well regulated militias are necessary, so the right to arms shall not be infringed.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."
James Madison 1789

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:13 PM

12. Just because you don't perceive something does not mean that it is not there. Commas are the

structural elements of the logic of English.

And, btw, the word "so" isn't in the 2nd Amendment and the fact that you INSERT it contradicts your own point.

The best way around those problems is to START with what is actually there, whether you arbitrarily wish to disregard those facts or not. There is no "so" and there is a 3rd comma.

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Response to patrice (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:21 PM

14. Nope - its some silly shit. My use of "so" did not alter the intent of the actual amendment,

your misuse of commas does.

I remember reading that opinion before Heller - some clown wrote how the whole argument (by the SCOTUS!!) may come down to a comma...goofy then - goofy now.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:36 PM

17. So YOU may add to the Constitution AND subtract from it, but no one else may do the same. PRIVILEGE

is what that is called. Privilege is not earned; it is assumed by some type of superiority historically associated with royalty. And, worse, yours is a royalty that asserts itself at the point of guns.

NO KINGS!!!

- end of "conversation" - . . . because I don't waste my time on royal lackeys.

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Response to patrice (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:48 PM

19. Easy, don't go away mad. I was not adding or subtracting, I was rehashing what it says using

simple terms that could be easily understood to see it means just what it says...or so I thought.

You were trying to re-interpret it to mean something totally different, because of a comma.

But you are right, just because I think it is silly doesn't mean it is.

For you, I'll quote the actual amendment so we can re-read it:

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

or if it makes you feel better:

As passed by the Congress:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

They both STILL mean the same thing:

well regulated militias are necessary, so the right to arms shall not be infringed
OR
because a well regulated militia is required to secure freedom, the people shall always have the right to keep and bear arms
etc. etc.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:38 PM

24. k, so the founding fathers (ahem...) made a mistake & forgot to say "hence". What other mistakes did

they make?

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Response to patrice (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:43 PM

25. And would any of their other mistakes have anything to do with the means by which Corporate Personho

od is asserted?

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Response to patrice (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:55 PM

27. Not sure what you are saying or asking - can you clarify? nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:49 PM

26. I would say that whole slave thing was a BIG one.

Article 1, Section 2
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Article 1 Section. 9.
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.


Lack of equal rights with regards to sufferage was another.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:50 PM

20. Actually, to legal scholars, including supreme court justices,

the silly shit does matter.

The people on the street looking for an argument hold an opinion similar to your in some respects. They don't care about commas and the subordination of clauses to major clauses. They just want some words that they an believe back up their belief

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:03 PM

21. Agreed. Such selective interpretation is used in re:the 2nd, where

the preamble is taken as nothing more then...'an interesting observation', but is not relevant at all to the right secured in the restriction.

(I agree more with Stevens, that if any confusion exists in the restriction, look to the preamble for clarity.)

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:15 PM

23. Judges are like accountants, their figures don't lie, but they surely do figuring.

Scalia is one of the worst hypocrites in that respect. He is forever saying that the law should be considered as it is written and then he picks and chooses his way through it to come up with some novel very conservative interpretation.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 04:47 PM

30. Come on now. You can't say that you inserting a word didn't change the intent when you're

arguing about commas and meaning of sentence structure. People are dying over this argument.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:51 PM

32. My adding 'so' while paraphrasing the wording of the 2nd did NOT change the intent.

The intent is and always has been the same. And what good is it to try to explain something if all we do is just type exactly what everyone knows it says and say "see, I told you"???

Anyway...
In all the debates over the proposed amendments, none of the founders had any problem knowing how to read this article. They argued much over religious exemptions, but very little over the notion that well regulated militias were necessary. The Militia were composed of the people. The people keeping and bearing arms were the Militias.

Mr. Gerry: objected to the first part of the clause, on account of the uncertainty with which it is expressed. A well regulated militia being the best security of a free State, admitted an idea that a standing army was a secondary one....It ought to read, "a well regulated militia, trained to arms;" in which case it would become the duty of the Government to provide this security..."

Mr. Scott: objected to the clause in the sixth amendment, "No person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms." He observed that if this becomes part of the constitution, such persons can neither be called upon for their services, nor can an equivalent be demanded; it is also attended with still further difficulties, for a militia can never be depended upon. This would lead to the violation of another article in the constitution, which secures to the people the right of keeping arms, and in this case recourse must be had to a standing army.


You want to argue what exactly is meant by "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" have at it, but there is NO doubt that that right is what was secured, and NO doubt why...because the militias were necessary. {and Congress now had power on how they would be regulated, including how they would be armed...the people had to be sure they wouldn't be DISarmed.}

Mr Gerry: "Now, I am apprehensive, sir, that this {religious exemtion} clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms. What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now, it must be evident, that, under this provision, together with their other powers, Congress could take such measures with respect to a militia, as to make a standing army necessary. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:41 PM

2. +1, nutters have an excuse of being incredibly gullible what I cant stand is DUr's with HPC usin NRA

talking points point to the degree that has been used since the shooting

Well regulated makes sense and is often ignored by the nutters and the MSM

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:43 PM

3. Huge K&R!

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:46 PM

4. Simple ...

"Well Regulated" modifes the term "militia" and was not intended to restrict the rest of the amendment. The NRA and various 2nd amenders deny being a part of any militia; ergo, the term does not apply to them ...

Or something like that.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:57 PM

8. Yep, that's it exactly...

Clarence Thomas gave the courts and the gun nutters the language now used to frame the second as an individual right, separate from any militia duty.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:01 PM

10. They want to regulate the militia -

I don't think they really cared what kind of guns anyone owned.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:26 PM

16. It isn't an individual right either.

It gives the right to 'the people'. Other amendments that grant individual rights grant them to: persons, owners etc.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 04:53 PM

31. The amendment calls for a well regulated militia. It doesn't say an optional regulated militia.

So why can't the states or the fedgov require all gun owners to report to regular militia checks and inspections? If your gun doesn't pass spec for use in the militia, then you don't have a right to own it. And if the state is in charge of the militia, doesn't this amendment require the states to have a well regulated one or be in breach of the constitution (not that it would get in the way of the wingnut call for nullification)?

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, too, but that's what this argument always devolves to.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 10:57 PM

33. I agree with your points, especially the 2nd. The States WERE SUPPOSED

to be in charge of the Militias. Only the Militia of the Several States were assigned very specific very vital roles in the Constitution. Only the Militias of the Several States were to be called forth in service of the United States. Those are the militias that were necessary.

But because the Congress was given the power to organize, arm and discipline them, they went a little...over-board (usurped power?) and recreated the State Militias as the federally controlled and armed and funded National Guard...a reserve for the HUGE standing army!!! BUT the people's respresentatives wrote the laws, apparently with little compliant, so..

As for the inspections - sure - why not? Have a Militia Act that once again enrolls the people in the Militias. BUT be aware, if the Militia takes on that great a roll again, then the arms we must keep and bear would be full grade military arms - M-16s, M-4s, M-9s etc.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 10:59 PM

34. This all seems so out of date and far removed from the modern US

It's too bad it's not easier to deal with the gun problem, but such as it is.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 11:07 PM

35. I know I know. I love the historical aspect though! But bottom line, (IMHO)

the Dick Act obsoleted the Constitutional Militias with creation of the guard. The people have no issue maitaining a large standing army (well - generally). The intent of the second was to secure the people's right and duty to serve in the State Militias, which no longer exist. It seems to me that the right to keep and bear arms as enumerated in the 2nd is obsolete, as the reason given for securing it no longer exists.

Does a right to arms exist outside the militia purpose? Sure...but there is no reason that right isn't subject to restrictions.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 11:11 PM

36. I appreciate the dialogue.

The historical part interests me, too. Rational discussion opportunities about gun law are few and far between.


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Response to Politicub (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 11:14 PM

37. Me too! Cheers! Nt

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:46 PM

5. K&R! & snagged, Thanks! nt

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:58 PM

9. Regulate: to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of.

It seems to me arms control fits under this.

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:17 PM

13. And luckily so, otherwise our National Guard would suck.

Of course the Congress could say what arms the people had to have for Militia service, that was an important part of the whole 'well-regulated' thing.

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 02:44 PM

18. Different times

The 2nd Amendment meant different things in the late-1700s

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 03:06 PM

22. Pickin and choosin

Its all about pickin the parts you like and choosin the parts you don't like to live by. Kinda like the religious nuts do with the bible.

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 04:09 PM

28. Well-regulated was a well-known term to the Founding Fathers

 

See Federalist Paper #29. It means, paraphrased, "trained like an army".

F.P. #29 also expounds upon the dangers & chaos a bunch of untrained gun-owning yahoos would present. Very apt for the present day, and a clear indication that the 2nd Amendment has NOTHING to do with the way the NRA or the Scalia Kangaroo Kourt defines it.

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 04:38 PM

29. It's puzzling to me

that the SCOTUS which gave us the "individual rights" decision in Heller and is worshiped by the Gungeon crowd, is the same SCOTUS that gave us GWB in Florida, and Citizens United.

The only conclusion that I can draw from this observation is that the Gungeoneers who celebrate the overturning of around 100 years of sensible gun laws with Heller, also voted for Dubya, and agree with "corporations are people."

So someone please tell me again why right-wing, neoconservative, Scalia worshiping, NRA-supporters are allowed to spew their anti-Democratic hatred and Republican propaganda on DU?

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