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Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:16 AM

Missing from yesterday's speech: drugs & gangs

Drug trafficking and gang violence are responsible for a huge numbers of gun deaths.

Why no mention of these root causes yesterday with some action plans to address?

122 replies, 5409 views

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Reply Missing from yesterday's speech: drugs & gangs (Original post)
B2G Jan 2013 OP
datasuspect Jan 2013 #1
Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #109
russspeakeasy Jan 2013 #2
bongbong Jan 2013 #3
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #7
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #23
bongbong Jan 2013 #27
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #34
MineralMan Jan 2013 #49
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #52
msongs Jan 2013 #66
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #71
Bake Jan 2013 #81
bongbong Jan 2013 #90
Bake Jan 2013 #96
bongbong Jan 2013 #99
Bake Jan 2013 #101
bettyellen Jan 2013 #107
Bake Jan 2013 #110
bettyellen Jan 2013 #111
Bake Jan 2013 #112
bettyellen Jan 2013 #122
ieoeja Jan 2013 #100
nick of time Jan 2013 #4
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #5
B2G Jan 2013 #11
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #19
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #6
nick of time Jan 2013 #10
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #12
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #18
bongbong Jan 2013 #29
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #33
bongbong Jan 2013 #37
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #38
bongbong Jan 2013 #39
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #40
bongbong Jan 2013 #41
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #45
bongbong Jan 2013 #68
Robb Jan 2013 #44
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #50
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #56
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #58
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #62
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #64
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #67
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #69
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #73
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #75
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #80
1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #85
blue neen Jan 2013 #61
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #65
blue neen Jan 2013 #98
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #84
hack89 Jan 2013 #13
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #24
dkf Jan 2013 #15
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #22
dkf Jan 2013 #25
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #28
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #35
dkf Jan 2013 #42
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #46
dkf Jan 2013 #51
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #54
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #93
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #94
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #97
dkf Jan 2013 #104
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #108
dkf Jan 2013 #113
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #115
dkf Jan 2013 #116
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #117
dkf Jan 2013 #118
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #119
dkf Jan 2013 #120
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #121
Fozzledick Jan 2013 #43
Squinch Jan 2013 #72
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #92
One_Life_To_Give Jan 2013 #70
JohnnyBoots Jan 2013 #8
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #57
Robb Jan 2013 #9
dkf Jan 2013 #20
dkf Jan 2013 #21
bongbong Jan 2013 #32
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #36
redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #14
randome Jan 2013 #30
Squinch Jan 2013 #76
B2G Jan 2013 #88
Squinch Jan 2013 #91
ieoeja Jan 2013 #95
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #16
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #17
Taverner Jan 2013 #26
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #31
Recursion Jan 2013 #47
Squinch Jan 2013 #82
randome Jan 2013 #48
patrice Jan 2013 #53
JustAnotherGen Jan 2013 #55
B2G Jan 2013 #60
JustAnotherGen Jan 2013 #89
jpak Jan 2013 #59
B2G Jan 2013 #63
The Magistrate Jan 2013 #74
Squinch Jan 2013 #78
Squinch Jan 2013 #77
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #83
Squinch Jan 2013 #86
ieoeja Jan 2013 #79
DevonRex Jan 2013 #87
Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #102
Recursion Jan 2013 #103
Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #105
Recursion Jan 2013 #106
Glassunion Jan 2013 #114

Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:18 AM

1. you can't fuck with profit centers

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:19 PM

109. =Exactly.=

 

46% of people in prison are there on drug-related offences. This, thanks to the "war on drugs". Now we have a prison-industrial complex with increasingly privatized and even outright private prisons funded by taxpayer dollars, which promise investors a 90% occupancy rate. Gotta fill those beds somehow! Why not create a new set of sub-citizens targeted for filling those beds? It's a closed circle!

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:18 AM

2. I wondered the same thing.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:20 AM

3. Guns are the problem

 

Too many guns!

The Delicates will have to learn how to depend on something else for their self-esteem and paranoia problems.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:25 AM

7. I'd rather my kids go to the range than get stoned.

 

I'd rather my kids go to the range than go drinking.

It's a great learning family activity.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:37 AM

23. If I was gonna have to choose between my kid smoking a joint and firing a gun,

I'd choose the joint. But to each his or her own.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:48 AM

27. Nice false dilemma

 



How transparent is your rhetorical game!

You must've been a hell of a parent if the only two things they wanna do are either drink or shoot guns (you said it, not me)

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Response to bongbong (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:58 AM

34. So narrow is the attention span...................

 

nt

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:40 PM

49. I rather think your kids will

decide for themselves about getting stoned, really. Most kids make that decision without parental input.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:44 PM

52. I am well aware of that. nt

 

nt

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:18 PM

66. violence and destruction...a great family activity. ok nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #66)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:46 PM

71. What violence and destruction?

 

Poking paper and Zen concentration maybe.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:11 PM

81. And you totally ducked the gang issue.

Not surprising.

I suppose that gangs would be just fine if all they had for weapons was knives or staplers. so in your view, gangs are NOT the issue, guns are the issue.

I disagree.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #81)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:36 PM

90. Pesky facts

 

Gangs account for 6% of homicides (in 2008)

Guns are the problem. Pesky fact.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #90)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:47 PM

96. I'd probably opt for a deeper dive on the statistics

Gangs are "a" problem, and likely a subset of the larger problem.

Most homicides, I would imagine, are non-gang related.

But I'd still like to see a deeper dive on the statistics. Why? Because I'm a gun owner -- a RESPONSIBLE gun owner -- and I have no plan or intention to kill ANYONE.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #96)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 03:05 PM

99. Here ya go

 

> But I'd still like to see a deeper dive on the statistics.

OK, 94% of homicides were non-gang-related.

Guns are the problem. Pretty hard to argue with that.

Are your guns SECURE? Are both the ammo and ALL your guns in an (expensive) gun safe, bolted or cemented to the floor?

Otherwise, you're not a responsible gun owner.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #99)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 03:33 PM

101. There are NO children in my home. I keep my doors locked.

Do I still need a gun safe bolted to the floor?

I don't think so.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #101)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:13 PM

107. all the gungeon people were crying how their guns could be stolen, and yet when you ask them

about keeping them secured, they are never concerned at all. Funny, that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #107)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:32 PM

110. I'm not a gungeoneer.

Do I leave it lying out in plain sight? Nope.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #110)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:49 PM

111. i don't think "hiding it" is quite responsible enough.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #111)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 07:00 PM

112. Again, NO CHILDREN in the home.

It's not hidden, it's just not in plain sight. How does locking it in a gun safe bolted to the floor protect anyone more than it being behind a securely locked door?

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:58 PM

122. visitors, theft- which many here are going on and on about.

i just think gun ownership shouldn't be treated so casually.

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Response to Bake (Reply #96)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 03:32 PM

100. 3 out of 4 homicides are not related to *any* other crime.


It would seem that just plain old anger is the primary cause of homicide.

Post #79 contains a link to FBI stats for 2011.


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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:22 AM

4. What, and cut into the CIA's profits?

 

Can't have that now, can we?

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:22 AM

5. Would mean discussing the Drug War

Something that's becoming increasingly untenable and yet impossible to end.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:26 AM

11. We can't end mental illness either

Yet that's all everyone wants to seem to talk about.

Newtown, Columbine, VTech...all unspeakably tragic. Yet compare the numbers murders due to drugs and gangs to these types of events. The numbers pale in comparison. Look at the number of school age kids that die in Chicago each year.

But not one word from Biden's report on those causes.

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Response to B2G (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:32 AM

19. Yeah, but mental illness isn't really directly caused by government policy

When was the last time you saw a shootout between liquor distributors?

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:23 AM

6. Actually, Ma'am, Tracing And Vetting Of All Private Sales Will Have A Great Impact On Gang Armament

A very large proportion of firearms used in criminal activity are obtained through trafficking involving straw buyers and inter-state shipment.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:26 AM

10. Yep.

 

They'll still get guns, but it would make it harder for them.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:27 AM

12. As well as guns sold and stolen from government sources.

 

We also have the media publishing the addresses of gun owners and providing criminals with a resource list.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:31 AM

18. The Technical For This, Sir, Is 'Fucking Bull-Shit'

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:51 AM

29. I'm glad to see NRA Talking Points being given the "respect" they deserve

 



The typical thread in the gungeon includes lots of evidence-free claims by Delicate Flowers.

In contrast, the few non-Delicates whom venture into that cesspool have every single one of their facts responded to with "PROVE IT!"

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Response to bongbong (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:54 AM

33. It beats the gun grabber toking points.

 

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:04 PM

37. LOL

 

Do you need some parenting tips? Here's a good one to start with:

1) Try to have other hobbies besides drinking and shooting.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:09 PM

38. Actually I have plenty.

 

Dogs, cats, flytying, camping, wonderful wife, gardening, hiking, reading, civil rights activist.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:13 PM

39. OK

 

So why did you use such a transparent NRA Talking Point? You think anybody would fall for it?

"Drinking or shooting! That's all they got! And shooting is better than drinking!"

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Response to bongbong (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:17 PM

40. Where is this master list of "NRA" talking points?

 

Everytime someone does not agree with a narrow pointed view it seems to be an NRA talking point.

I don't agree with the colors my wife wants for the kitchen paint, must be an NRA talking point. Then the solution would be to ban paint brushes and only sell paint in quart cans.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #40)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:20 PM

41. When you hear the same evidence-free "fact" from at least 3 Delicate Flowers

 

Almost as if they're following a script.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:34 PM

45. What shall we call anti gun bullshit then?

 

If we repeat something often enough then it will become truth.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:44 PM

68. Anti gun?

 

How about "well-regulated", instead.

Which of these "anti-gun bullshit" points is wrong:

1) Britain banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.
2) Australia banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.
3) France banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.
4) Germany banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.
5) Spain banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.
6) Portugal banned guns & gun murder rates plummeted.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #40)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:32 PM

44. If I listed my wife as being among my "hobbies," we'd have words on more than paint colors.

Not for nothing.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:41 PM

50. Tell us more about ...

the "Civil Rights Activist" thing?

Is it limited, in word and/or action, to the "civil right" to own guns?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:49 PM

56. Not limited to RKBA

 

My union hates my RKBA position but also has me on comittees for gender equality, veterans, and EOP review issues.

Keep in mind the Bill of Rights is a package deal.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:51 PM

58. And a part of that package is ...

the "well regulated militia ..." part.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #58)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:03 PM

62. I just like people to stay off my ass and out of my business.

 

Ya see my target rifles are of no threat to anyone or anything, neither would be passing them on to my son or grandchildren

However, many of the proposed laws (past and present) have stepped on my toes. Laws based upon paranoia and mistrust.

Depending on the state it's called profiling.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #62)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:08 PM

64. How have ...

past and present laws (and presumably, President Obama's most recent executive actions) stepped on your target shooting toes?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:36 PM

67. I own a two CMP 1994 ban compliant semi-automatic rifle.

 

I can no longer take them to NY for matches. They are the last of their generation, once gone they can not be replaced. I will not be able to give them to my son or grandkids. I did the 4473 stuff, all the background stuff etc. etc. completely bonifide legit. It may not be possible to get spare parts for them either. I don't hunt so a 20 round mag is not a hunting issue. A 20 round mag actually ergonomically fits me best. Other people like 30's. Drum mags are not CMP compliant and frankly useless to a marksman. The AR platform has been a CMP standard for as long as I have been shooting. There are hundreds of CMP rifle shooters out there. The sport will be extinct in 50-80 years. The bans make no sense to the people I go to the range with.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #67)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:44 PM

69. Okay ...

All I can say is times are a'changing. The "hundreds" will have to find a new hobby.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:50 PM

73. Having heard the arguments, seen the debates, statistics and poster children for the gun grabbers.

 

I stand by my principals.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #73)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:54 PM

75. Are "gun grabbers" ...

the same as those that seek to restrict what class of fire-arms are lawful and who can lawfully possess them?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #75)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:09 PM

80. Unfortunately the "gun grabbers" are technically ignorant.

 

Hence the ignorance implied in the slang name. It's like discussing physics with cavemen.

They pretend to be holier than thou but I wouldn't trust them to babysit my cats.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #80)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:21 PM

85. What does that mean?

Ignorant to what? That expanded clips allow for more shots between reloading? That weapons that fire "X number" of rounds per second cause more damage than weapons that fire "X-minus" rounds per second? That requiring universal background checks will make it more difficult (not impossible) for unlawful possessor to buy fire-arms? That it's a good idea to allow for CDC studies of gun violence?

What?

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:58 PM

61. I wonder how the gender equality committee feels about you saying that your wife is a "hobby."

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Response to blue neen (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:16 PM

65. Specifically I don't care what they think about me caling her a wonderful wife, it's what she thinks

 

A good marriage/relationship comes from investing quality time into it. I've an uncle who's been with his domestic partner for 35+ years. They've been together and happier then some male-female relationships I've known. They haven't made a complex mess of their life unlike other partnerships. I hate relationships where they couple squeezes out a couple of kids, split and the kids end up being treated like baggage into the next failing relationship.

The gender committee can think what they want.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #65)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:59 PM

98. Your posts are good reading material.

The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Heck, if it's what SHE thinks that's important, then why make a point of telling everyone on an internet chat board about it?

Enjoy those committees, specifically!

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:17 PM

84. lofl...made my afternoon

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:28 AM

13. I agree with you. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:38 AM

24. Glad To Hear It, Sir

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:28 AM

15. Why not crack down on gangs?

 

Beyond the guns aren't they bad news?

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:37 AM

22. And You Inhabit what Planet, Ma'am --- Pluto?

Gang suppression is one of the chief foci of law enforcement at all levels.

Of course, such efforts can have odd consequences at times. Much of the current spate of gang violence in Chicago owes to very successful efforts to neutralize the leadership of the city's largest gang confederacy. Organized crime is generally neater....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:41 AM

25. Apparently they weren't doing it until more recently.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/chicagos-homicide-rates-s_n_2007174.html

Law enforcement experts say the results are evidence that the police strategy of learning about gang territories and rivalries may be paying off. Since conducting the audit of the city's gangs, authorities have identified dozens of gangs and gang factions they didn't even know existed early in the year.

At the height of the violence in February and March, there were sometimes "as many as four to six shootings in four to six hours, all based off of one conflict," Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy said in an interview.

Now, he added, "if gang member X gets shot at this location, we immediately know who is in his gang, what gang his gang is in conflict with, where the gang's turf is." Using that information, police quickly deploy their resources to prevent retaliation.

Police also have cracked down on drug dealing and put more uniformed officers on specific beats. Arrests of suspected gang members are up by about 5,500 this year, McCarthy said.

In addition, police have put gangs on notice that killings will trigger a crackdown for the smallest offenses. That message appears to have gotten through.

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Response to dkf (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:48 AM

28. Do Not Try And Teach Your Grand-Father To Suck Eggs, Ma'm

I am a lifelong resident of the city, I am very familiar with its police department and practices, and with its more 'interesting' neighborhoods. McCarthy is an outsider, and makes noises necessary to get by with the press in a situation that is most trying for the city's political leadership. The enforcers of the old gang units on the street when I was 'an adventurous youth' would be most amused in their rest homes and their graves to know the department has only recently begun to focus on gang activity.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:58 AM

35. How many times does Obama have to mention violence in Chicago

before some of the racist shitheads on this board and elsewhere stop pretending that "nobody is focused on the gangs."

Jesus.

Thanks for keeping things moderately sane in here, Magistrate!

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:25 PM

42. Sounds to me like there have been significant improvements recently in certain areas.

 

If we did that for all areas with high gang activity I bet we would see more of a difference than from a grandfathered assault rifle ban.

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Response to dkf (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:36 PM

46. Intelligence Collection And Collation Is In Some Ways Better In All Fields Nowadays, Ma'am

It is possible to store and sort and match much more information more quickly with computers than with index cards. It does not always give better understanding, mind, than experienced intuition, but it does make things more widely available.

But it must be clear even to you by now that you are drilling a dry hole, that what you claim is needed is already underway, that what you claim is new is actually decades long practice.

What interests me is what you do not engage, namely new measures that would impact trafficking in guns....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:42 PM

51. I have no problem with that.

 

I also don't know what I'm supposed to support to get that done.

Maybe you should post some threads?

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Response to dkf (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:46 PM

54. Nothing Stops You From Expressing Support, Ma'am: Many Of Us Manage It Often....

Of course, expressing support for measures urged by a Democratic President on a board for Democrats and progressives will not generate great amounts of heat and great quantities of attention, and will generally fail to 'stir shit'....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:39 PM

93. Sir, may I call you dude? You are on fire today!!! nt

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #93)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:43 PM

94. Damned Near Anything But Late For Dinner, Sir, Is Fine With Me....

Of course, I do a lot of the cooking, which cuts down on opportunities for that.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #94)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:55 PM

97. I can relate, to the cooking that is. What can I say. I admire the way you

handle the bridge dwellers.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #93)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 05:29 PM

104. I roll my eyes at your boys club mentality.

 

You are too funny.

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Response to dkf (Reply #104)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:14 PM

108. Boys club??!! Nah, plenty of women feel the same way. Just ask around. I detect

a bit of "concern" on your part as usual. Please don't misunderstand. I admire what you've been able to do and for how long you've been able to pull it off.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:31 AM

113. That is funny because I think Obama, Clinton, and most practical Dems are closer to me than to

 

You all.

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Response to dkf (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:05 AM

115. I sincerely doubt that Obama or Clinton think there was

a cover up in Benghazi or that the mean Democrats are "demonizing" the rich. I could go on with some of your other bullshit but the cyber trail is there for all to see. I will grant you that next to the President and most high ranking Democrats I'm Karl "Motherfucking" Marx.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #115)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:12 PM

116. The early info on Benghazi was bad period.

 

You should be able to realize it by now.

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Response to dkf (Reply #116)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:16 PM

117. And you should be able to realize that it came from the CIA and the White House trusted them. Not

the bullshit you were spouting the other day. Listen, your concern trolling is funny at times but it's really gotten tiresome. You should be able to realize it it by now.

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #117)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:21 PM

118. I'm a volunteering contributing card carrying Democrat.

 

What do you do?

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Response to dkf (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:24 PM

119. I'm King Shit of Fuck Mountain. Any other questions? Oh and do they

give you a special ring to along with your card?

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #119)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:28 PM

120. No that's perfect. Thank you.

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 01:28 PM

121. My pleash! nt

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:26 PM

43. Trimming the branches while ignoring the roots.

As long as prohibition continues, the easy money from drug trafficking will continue to create new gangs to replace any eliminated by law enforcement.

The only way to actually reduce the problem is to address the root cause, not just deal with the symptoms.

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:49 PM

72. Why not crack down on guns?

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:37 PM

92. Holy shit! Why didn't anyone think of that before???!!! nt

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:45 PM

70. You have more faith than I do.

I would of liked to see an EO specifically talking about interrupting the illegal flow from Straw Purchase to OMG it was stolen to the streets.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:25 AM

8. Hanguns were missing too.

 

Illegal handguns are the real issue. Semi-auto rifles with high cap mags are like less than 2% of the problem. Since an AR was used in Newtown it is easier to go after the big scary gun rather than address the real issues that all boil down to socio-economics, failed drug policy and easy access to small arms in bad neighborhoods. Though I do think a lot of the Exec Orders will do some good to limit access to the crazies, but a lot of the gangs already have their arsenals built up and it's easy to resupply by theft. Especially when a newspaper gives you a map and address of where to go.

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Response to JohnnyBoots (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:49 PM

57. Who stole them?

 

Last edited Sun Jan 20, 2013, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)

nt

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:26 AM

9. Gang violence? Hardly.

http://www.ojp.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2011/BJS_PR-111611.pdf

The number of homicides known to involve adult or juvenile gang violence has quadrupled since 1980,
increasing from about 220 homicides in 1980 to 960 homicides in 2008. From 1980 to 2008, gang
violence increased from one percent to six percent of all homicides.

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Response to Robb (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:33 AM

20. Oakland Officials Blame Woman’s Murder For Setting Off Violent Crime War

 

OAKLAND (KCBS) — Two groups are at war with each other on the streets of Oakland, after the murder of woman last summer, and the subsequent feud is responsible for “90 percent” of the violence in the city since then, Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan said Monday.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/01/14/oakland-officials-blame-womans-murder-for-setting-off-violent-crime-war/

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Response to Robb (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:35 AM

21. Chicago's Homicide Rates Slowing After Violent Summer Spike

 

CHICAGO -- When the city's gang war intensified last spring, shootings became so frequent they sometimes seemed like a ghastly game of tennis, with each senseless attack followed by a vengeful response.

The furious rate of the killing drew national attention and even invited comparisons between Chicago and some of the world's war zones.

But a closer look shows something else: The pace of homicides and shootings has slowed considerably as police step up their presence and residents challenge gang members for control of the streets. In at least one of the city's most notoriously dangerous neighborhoods, homicides have actually fallen.

"People are taking a stand, that we're not going to stand for it," said Lisa Williams, a member of a South Side block-watch group where residents installed their own surveillance cameras.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/chicagos-homicide-rates-s_n_2007174.html

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Response to dkf (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:54 AM

32. LOL

 

Do you REALLY think your anecdotes trump "statistics prove gang activity accounts for 6% of homicides"?

I gotta bridge to sell ya....

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Response to dkf (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:01 PM

36. The Decline, Ma'am, Owes To Matters Sorting Themselves Out, Back into Stable Structures

The reason for the upsurge was the effective decapitation of the Gangster Disciples confederation several years ago. This was the largest group in the city by far, and it enforced a sort of order. Criminal conspiracies are, after all, concerned with profit, and an orderly environment is much better for business. With the keystone knocked out of the arch, however, the various local faction of which the Gangster Disciples confederacy was composed began to jostle for more territory and influence, and other groups that would not have dared challenge a portion of the united Gangster Disciples saw opportunity to expand against particular local factions. Situations like this sort out and settle down as new norms of territory and tribute are established. That process is well under way now.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:28 AM

14. They are missing from the DU discourse on the subject as well.

I have gathered from the discourse that people don't want to reduce homicides, or even gun homicides. They want to reduce random spree shootings, which is a separate goal.

Specific areas are driving up the homicide and gun-homicide rates. If we had an honest discourse about general gun violence (all types), Detroit and New Orleans would be at the top of the agenda.



http://www.businessinsider.com/elisabeth-fossliens-gun-charts-2013-1?op=1


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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:52 AM

30. I think you're correct. The focus was on random mass murders, not gun violence in itself.

Although it would be good to have a national conversation on that, including drug laws and gang violence. It should not be enough to reduce the occurrence of mass murder.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:56 PM

76. Interestingly New York City, which has tons of gangs, is not on that list of highest gun deaths.

Whatever could be the difference? Oh, yes! They have very tough gun laws!

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Response to B2G (Reply #88)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:36 PM

91. That shows that there sure were a lot of gun deaths in NYC in 2006. But not so much in 2011,

according to the stats of the poster I was responding to.

What could have caused the change??

Oh yeah! GUN LAWS!

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Response to B2G (Reply #88)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:47 PM

95. According to the link you just posted ... yes, really.


Your link shows the New York murder rate, between 3.3 and 4.0 per 100k, is less than one-tenth the murder rate of the cities in your graphic.

Also, as I posted elsewhere (post #79, I think), 76% of murders are not crime related. And the most crime related murders are neither drug nor gang related. If drugs and gangs would magically disapper overnight, 90% of homicides would continue.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:28 AM

16. There were probably no gang-bangers in the Peanut Gallery

during his speech.

Gang-bangers and drug dealers would not have been as effective as theatrical props.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:30 AM

17. I don't agree. I think it's hiding in the directive to Holder to be sure we don't miss dangerous

people.

Yesterday was an event whose setting and conversations were managed. The PR focus was school shootings...that's why it was staged as it was.

I'm not saying that's wrong. All the administrations presentations to the public are managed. It is the way things are done.

The public support is for reducing risks from mass-shootings and school shootings are the most powerful face of that.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:41 AM

26. The CIA and NSA need their cut

 

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 11:54 AM

31. The Magistrate already set you straight on this point

The drug gangs get their weaponry on the legal-to-illicit pipeline, through straw purchasers and gun store owners who knowingly sell to them. The trafficking and tracking provisions signed by the Prez go directly to this question. So you're simply wrong here. It also helps to have a fucking Director of the BATF, if you're actually concerned about stopping the legal-to-illicit pipeline that feeds gun violence in our urban centers.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:37 PM

47. Because it's no longer 1994? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:15 PM

82. There is that. ^^^^^^

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:37 PM

48. Actually, the EO calling for repeal of the ban on researching causes of gun violence might lead...

...to something productive in this area.

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:44 PM

53. K&R for the courage to say that, especially with the legalization of cannabis on the table. nt

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:48 PM

55. Because the roots causes have root causes

Chicago is a truly racially segregated community.

Where are the cost of living jobs for the folks that live in the 60644 zip code?

Why weren't their children educated?

Why are their children food and shelter insecure for much of their young lives?


Addressings the 'gangs' and 'drugs' issue might be a band aid. When we speak to inner city/gang/drug runner gun violence I want to have a really serious discussion about the marginalization of black and hispanic youth.

And I want the discussion to be opened up as to why their lives - whether they live in a bad part of Chicago or are visiting their father in a Gated Community in Florida weren't worth this discussion ohhhhhhhhhh - all of my life up until now .

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #55)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:52 PM

60. Then why aren't jobs, education and big brother prorams on the agenda??

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Response to B2G (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:33 PM

89. Can I be honest?

They are black people - like me.

They are Hispanics.

But in addition to being minorities - they are Poor. You know - the 'takers'. The dregs. People like say - Trayvon Martin .

The big suburbun and rural white 'Pro Guns All Day All The Way' fear these people. That's why - in case they invade their homes - they need a big big gun - like a flame thrower! Buuuuut - they don't even realize these folks don't have the transportation to get to their McMansion on a hill but I digress. Very amusing. Very sad. But very amusing.

No one cares about poor black and hispanic inner city folks - except for well - people like me. Gun rights are a lot more 'sexy' and 'fun' and well - inanimate.

Nobody cares about a bunch of 'human beings' anymore other than a very small group of Americans. . .

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:51 PM

59. Gangbangers get their guns from "legitamate" straw buyers with no background checks

Those days are about to end.

Thanks to Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

yup

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:07 PM

63. Suicide by firearms is also absent from the remediation plan

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Response to B2G (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 01:53 PM

74. Public Health Studies Will Address This, Ma'am

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Response to B2G (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:01 PM

78. Seriously? You wrote that?

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:00 PM

77. So was medical mistreatment of gun injuries. That accounts for some gun deaths too.

But wait. Just like drug trafficking and gang violence, that is a completely different issue. It would have been dopey to include that in gun control regulations. Just like it would have been dopey to include gang control and drug control.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:17 PM

83. Those things have as much or more to do with gun violence as does mental illness

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #83)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:27 PM

86. And mental illness is a separate issue as well. Why does it make sense to some people that,

the moment you say, "Let's do something to crack down on guns," they say, "what about mental health and gangs and suicide and the drug wars."

Yes these things intersect. But when we say we want to do something about mental health, a bunch of people don't come out of the woodwork and say, "but we won't even talk about that until you have done something to solve the gun problem." People have the sense to see that, although it intersects with the gun problem, our mental health system's problems are a separate issue.

How about we just try doing something about guns for a change? How about we don't let these people distract us, and actually try some gun laws?

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:05 PM

79. Arguments 41.8% .. Non-Drug Crime 18.2% .. Gangs 8.6% .. Drugs 5% .. Other 34.3%


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11


Note that 76.1% of homicides occur during the course of activities not otherwise involving any crime.

Odds of being a homicide victim = 0.004%

Odds of being a homicide victim because of:
0.0017% Arguments
0.0007% Non-Drug Crime
0.0003% Gangs
0.00002% Drugs
0.0013% Other non-criminal related activities

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 02:31 PM

87. Because we will not allow distractions this time. Period. nt

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 03:40 PM

102. which gangs and drug trafficking was involved in any of the mass murders recently?

like NONE

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #102)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 05:05 PM

103. Is preventing mass murders the goal?

They're horrifying, but aren't non-mass murders much more important to stop?

(Edit: yes, I want to prevent both, but they seem to have little in common.)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #103)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 05:49 PM

105. yes, they have very little in common

and law enforcement is already all over gangs and drugs
so a little attention to the crazy white gun nutters is about time

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #105)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 06:05 PM

106. That's a fair point

I see what you're saying

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Response to B2G (Original post)

Fri Jan 18, 2013, 04:03 AM

114. Because it is hard to fix, profitable, and a misunderstood problem.

If you look at the various statistics, you can get confused easily.

The problem is that there is no comprehensive accurate report outlining the problem of drugs and gangs in the US.

Post #79 contains a link to the FBI UCR for 2011. From that report one sees that there were 150 gangland killings and 523 Juvenile gang killings for a total of 673. This would equate to 5.3% of all homicides. A rather small figure.

Now, for my point I have to step back a few years as the data for 2011 is unavailable for LA county. If we look back at the FBI UCR for 2004 (page 20), you will see that there were 95 gangland killings and 804 juvenile gang killings working out to 6% of total homicides. Roughly the same percentage as in 2011. However in that same year, LA county experienced 454 gang-related homicides.PDF report

Personally I cannot see how that one county out of the entire US is responsible for more than 1/2 of all gang related homicide in the US. Especially considering that LA only contains 45,000 gang members out of the 1.5 million that the FBI estimates are active in the US.

Then you could look at another report (Page 3) from the same parent agency (DOJ) from the Office of Justice Programs, they are reporting that there is an average of roughly 2000 gang related homicides in the US each year. This is 3 times what the FBI reports.

So who do we believe? Which department has it right? Two agencies from the exact same US Department of Justice post reports for the same exact year with contradictory data. Do either of them have it right?

Another issue is that not every law enforcement office in the country reports their gang data to the DOJ. According to the DOJ nearly 1/2 of all law enforcement agencies do not report any criminal offenses as "gang-related".

So at the end of the day I feel that there is no good statistic to look at because the data is not being properly collected.

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