HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Cops in schools are a bad...

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:24 PM

Cops in schools are a bad, bad idea

In my early adolescence, I attended a reasonably tough junior high school in New York City. There was an armed cop or a guard, I forget which, at the school.

One day, a kid with issues somehow snagged the gun and much fun ensued. Fortunately the boy was talked out of shooting his science teacher.

Cops or guards with guns in schools will be mighty bored. Bad things will happen.

This is why I call guns "shit multipliers". Add a gun to any bad shit - bad kids, angry or suicidal people, whatever - and you just multiply the shit. Let's keep shit multipliers out of schools.

31 replies, 1916 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Cops in schools are a bad, bad idea (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 OP
Blecht Jan 2013 #1
Ian David Jan 2013 #2
Recursion Jan 2013 #3
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #4
Nay Jan 2013 #21
Bonhomme Richard Jan 2013 #5
phantom power Jan 2013 #9
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2013 #6
MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 #10
bongbong Jan 2013 #15
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2013 #17
cali Jan 2013 #7
rightsideout Jan 2013 #8
Cosmocat Jan 2013 #14
tk2kewl Jan 2013 #11
ProSense Jan 2013 #12
jeff47 Jan 2013 #13
frazzled Jan 2013 #16
EC Jan 2013 #18
REP Jan 2013 #19
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #20
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #23
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #24
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #25
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #26
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #27
JDPriestly Jan 2013 #22
lib2DaBone Jan 2013 #28
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #29
Flyboy_451 Jan 2013 #30
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #31

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:26 PM

1. The solution to gun problems

The solution to gun problems is not more guns, no matter who is holding them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:30 PM

2. But we need armed cops in schools to help feed more children into private prisons!



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:31 PM

3. We had a good DARE officer

He was friendly, he didn't talk down to us, and for a lot of kids he was the first positive experience they had with the police.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:31 PM

4. I basically agree, but there already are lots of schools with security guards.

They generally don't attract problems.

Can they help?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:28 PM

21. They didn't help at Columbine, which had two officers; or at VA Tech, which has a whole campus

police force. That's the problem -- in the instances where cops were assigned/available, they were pretty useless. IIRC, the Columbine officers were off-campus at lunch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:31 PM

5. The problem with cops in schools is that they can't help themselves.

They are cops and when they see stuff going on they have to act. What would have been a couple of high school kids being dumb now turns into a felony if the cop see's it. They are talking about putting cops in schools here and it has already escalated to having the video cameras in the schools fed directly to the police station so they can monitor things.
Not good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bonhomme Richard (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:40 PM

9. police state: if you build it, they will use it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:37 PM

6. Why wouldn't this rationale be applied universally?

Police are, from time to time, relieved of their weapons by someone intent on doing harm in places outside of schools. If "cop = source of gun for bad actor" is true than any cop anywhere with a gun is a liability.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:40 PM

10. Agreed. The risk vs. reward should always be reviewed.

I suspect that in most cases, guns are more likely to hurt than help.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:26 PM

15. Once again Europe is way ahead of us

 

In Italy the guns the Polizia carry have a lanyard attached to the person.

Can't figure out why they don't do that here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bongbong (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:27 PM

17. I know my husband would be ecstatic is we adopted the Swiss model. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:39 PM

7. I think a significant percentage of public schools in this country

already have cops on the premises, but as others have noted it's no guarantee against a shooter.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:39 PM

8. My kids have armed cops at their high school

My daughter went through 4 years of high school with a Resource Officer at the school. The school is the largest one in the county with over 3000 students. 42 school buses. Not a single issue. As a matter of fact one of the school's art students airbrushed the school's mascot on the hood of the Resource Officer's city patrol car. So there is a relationship between the police and the school. It's not like having an armed sentry yelling at kids and frisking them as they walk through the doors everyday.

My son presently goes to a different high school in the county. Same thing. No issues that I have heard of. I watched the officers one day just to get an idea. They are pretty laid back but professional and they get to know the students.

I'm OK with a cop being assigned to the school. But not OK with arming janitors and teachers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rightsideout (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:53 PM

14. Spot on

having "armed guards" and the gun in a safe for a designated teacher are putrid ideas.

But, if you have a properly trained Resource Officer with the right personality, and a district that is able to use this resources effectively, it is a positive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:42 PM

11. shit multiplier

reminds me of a saying

if shit were steel, ________ would be a magnet

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:44 PM

12. I don't think there should be

a cop inside every school, but I don't have a problem with police patrols and other security measures.

President Obama’s Call For Cops In Schools Echoes Clinton

Benjy Sarlin

President Obama suggested on Wednesday that the government provide grant money to hire police in schools, prompting cries of hypocrisy on the right after a proposal by the National Rifle Association to hire armed guards to protect children was met with widespread ridicule. But Obama’s plan has more in common with a program enacted by President Bill Clinton and eliminated by President Bush.

According to the White House, Obama plans on “using this year’s COPS program to provide incentives for more police departments to hire school resource officers” in addition to a “new, comprehensive school safety initiative to help local school districts hire up to 1,000 school resource officers and school-based mental health professionals, as well as make other investments in school safety.”

The COPS program was created by the 1994 crime bill, a law signed by Clinton and sponsored by then-Senator Joe Biden (D-DE) with the goal of hiring 100,000 police officers nationwide. Other provisions in the anti-crime package included the Violence Against Women Act and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, both of which have since lapsed over Democratic objections.

After a wave of school shootings in the late 1990s, Clinton signed a bill funding grants to hire specially trained community officers in schools. The bill was authored by by then-Rep. James Maloney (D-CT), whose district includes Newtown today, and was aimed at least in part at preventing mass shootings. At a press conference in 1998, Clinton argued for passage of Maloney’s proposal by telling the story of a school officer in Richmond, Va., who was hired by the existing COPS program and apprehended a 14-year old shooter after the teenager wounded two students.

- more -

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/01/obama-clinton-cops-schools.php


After Columbine Shooting, NRA Supported Gun Free School Zones It Now Opposes
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/16/1456051/after-columbine-shooting-nra-embraced-gun-safety-measures-it-now-opposes/

There is room to craft a sane policy.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:53 PM

13. A resource officer isn't really a police officer

They're more of a hybrid between a cop and a therapist. They are also trained to defuse situations instead of slap on handcuffs.

The NRA want typical "beat" cops in schools - or even "better", private security guards. That wouldn't help - it already failed in places like Columbine. The idea behind the "resource officer" is to try and intervene before the law is broken instead of punish after the law is broken.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:26 PM

16. I had a positive experience with a Resource Officer

This was probably back in 1997 or 1998, when my son was in junior high. His graphing calculator was stolen; bummer, we had to buy him a new one for the special math program he was in, which required it. And they were expensive back then, around $100. Not even a month later, as he was walking up the stairs between classes, someone behind him unzipped his backpack and stole the new one. Okay, we couldn't keep doing this over and over. Was there really a market for stolen graphing calculators or was it just harassment? Who knew.

My son at first claimed not to know who had done it, but I could tell he did. We had a meeting with the school counselor, and he wouldn't give a name, but finally the resource officer had a talk with him that convinced him it was okay to give a description, and why. I made it clear that we would not press any charges. The officer knew this kid from the description immediately and was able to get him to admit he'd taken it. It was retrieved from the kid's locker, and the officer gave the kid a long, good talking to. It was better than punishment or expulsion. Everyone came out better for it.

I don't know if this officer was armed or not, but it was a pretty tough school so he may have been. But he knew the kids, he was helpful and proactive, and it helped the teachers and counselors a lot, I believe.

That's very different than having armed "security guards." These resource officers are trained in forming relationships with students, in dealing with problems, in forming bonds.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:52 PM

18. Plus...is that the standard

of normal that we want to accept?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:57 PM

19. I was pulled into an empty classroom by an armed male security guard at my high school

I got away. I also got him fired.

He had been fired previously for harassing girls at the Jr High.

This was in the early 1980s.

I'm not a fan of the idea.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:02 PM

20. Agreed - this is what it really boils down to:

 

If there is a school shooter, having trustworthy armed persons already at the school when the shooting starts is bad. Using the phone and calling for trustworthy armed persons to show up (& then waiting for them to arrive) and save everyone is good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:43 PM

23. How many teachers should be fired to pay for the guards?

It is unacceptable that our culture has gone so insane that we have to have armed guards in the schools, this is not necessary in any other industrialized democracy.

And here on a supposedly liberal discussion forum people are cheering the idea.

Jesus wept.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:10 PM

24. Obama;"...if there’s even one life that can be saved, then we’ve got an obligation to try."

 

Clinton approved measures and funds to increase armed security presence in schools. If there’s even one life that can be saved, then we’ve got an obligation to try.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:20 PM

25. Could save a whole lot more by legalizing drugs and providing for regulated sales

Obama;"...if there’s even one life that can be saved, then we’ve got an obligation to try."


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:45 PM

26. I find that maddening

The "if it will save even one life" meme. If we have armed checkpoints, ID checks, pullover people for no reason and search them, come by and search your house once a week, spy on the population...I could go on and on....it will be worth it if it saves JUST ONE life. That is not how our country is set up. I hate it when people do that and it was a good speech but that should have been left out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:00 PM

27. I fear I've left something out of both my previos posts...

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:31 PM

22. Add guns to jealous husbands or boyfriends (or wives or girlfriends), to alcohol, to drugs,

to political fanatics, to feuding neighbors -- and ditto what MannyGoldstein says.

And perfectly sane, wonderful people can become jealous or a little tipsy or enraged by what they perceive to be injustice or thoughtless neighbors.

Guns are a big problem. They have legitimate uses but are all too often used for emotional release. Not good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:27 PM

28. Just imagine it's 1962... and someone proposed putting armed guards in our elementary schools....

 

They would have you committed for being stark raving mad... out of your mind.

Forward 2013... public says..."Meh".....

What have we turned into as a society? Is this what 911 and the Neocons have done to us?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lib2DaBone (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:39 PM

29. I am old enough to remember those days

I also remember sitins and walkouts in school in the late 60s early70s. I wonder how that would have worked out with police in the schools back in the day. I would have told you you were crazy back then if you had said to me that this is where we would be in the future.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 09:10 PM

30. So, anyone have a simple answer to a complex question??

Just an honest question. If all measures intended to prevent an active shooter occurrence fail, and the bullets start flying at another school, what immediate action do you recommend to end the event and save lives?

In my personal experience with this type of event, the surest way to bring it to a rapid halt is with counteracting force. If there is no means of reacting with force, the only option is to lock the doors, hide and wait for someone with the ability to project force to arrive.

JW

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Flyboy_451 (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 17, 2013, 03:41 AM

31. If it's such a complex question then why is it only being asked in America?

No other industrialized democracy is considering stationing armed guards in school.

What solution have they managed to implement that has made armed school guards unnecessary?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread