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Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:42 AM

Obama and Biden may have actually listened to the NRA

According to NBC news last night, one of the executive actions will be to "enforce existing laws". Actually prosecute straw purchasers. Actually prosecute gun dealers who knowingly sell to unqualified buyers.

NRA, GOA, and other "gun groups" have been advocating this approach for years. at least as far back as the WJC administration. It's not as "sexy" as passing new laws, but maybe more effective.



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Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Obama and Biden may have actually listened to the NRA (Original post)
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 OP
Arkansas Granny Jan 2013 #1
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #3
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #2
graham4anything Jan 2013 #6
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #7
graham4anything Jan 2013 #9
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #10
graham4anything Jan 2013 #13
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #14
graham4anything Jan 2013 #15
Tunkamerica Jan 2013 #16
graham4anything Jan 2013 #17
moriah Jan 2013 #8
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #19
stultusporcos Jan 2013 #4
graham4anything Jan 2013 #5
Pholus Jan 2013 #11
liberal N proud Jan 2013 #12
Javaman Jan 2013 #18
One_Life_To_Give Jan 2013 #20
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #21
One_Life_To_Give Jan 2013 #22
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #24
sarisataka Jan 2013 #23
former9thward Jan 2013 #25

Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:46 AM

1. A lot of people have advocated this, not just gun groups.

This would be a good place to start while they consider other measures.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:51 AM

3. Agree. Normally I'm not big on agressive law enforcement, but

I'd like to see some bad gun dealers go to jail

Along with some bankers, politicians, insurance providers, oursourcers, tax evaders.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:48 AM

2. Now this is interesting on another level

We have Aaron Swartz being prosecuted (and killing himself) over downloading JSTOR documents and now we see that maybe we are not enforcing existing gun laws that could save lives (but we are enforcing other laws that save some people some money).

Before adding new laws maybe we should try to enforce the ones we already have - why make new ones if they won't be enforced either?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:56 AM

6. An innocent person doesn't kill himself. A person who has a guilty conscience & commits crimes does

 

but what does this have to do with the NRA or new gun laws?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:13 AM

7. Simply this

We have laws we do not enforce.

We tend to enforce laws that pay back the system (ones where we can get fines) so other laws go unheeded (lack of money/manpower/etc)

If you can, btw, explain what he was guilty of - from all I can tell it was using computer network at MIT and downloading things he had legitimate access to (JSTOR). It was thought his intent was to put those items online for free, something he had not yet done.

Prosecutors can be political creatures and go for big name things and let other things slide. Guy buys a gun at a garage sale, has a friend buy it for him, etc and he does not use it to harm anyone and no one wants to waste the time/money to prosecute.

Probably because, like speeding, it happens all the time. Every day. People download/upload things to pirate bay. Every dang day. And they are all considered as law breakers. By the millions. How many are prosecuted?

Make a new law when you cannot, or will not, enforce the old ones and what the heck is the point?

The point comes out when you have people in power, prosecutors, who use the law here and there to further their own careers and the coffers of the city/state/fed.

How many speeders go by cops each day and are not stopped? Too many to count, so we let people slide except in the worst cases mostly. Sure, a lot of tickets are written but the number of people speeding is thousands of times higher.

Enforcement takes time, money, and people power (which costs money). Go ahead and make new laws - just sit down though and think about the reality of how it gets enforced and prosecuted.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:22 AM

9. If saving one life from guns comes from 150 new laws, it is worth it. And also write more tickets.

 

I like the idea of tickets of having a camera ticket everyone who runs red lights or speeds

Take away the insurance aspect, as cameras can't tell who is driving, but its a win/win/win

If you do the crime, do the time. Pay the fine.

If one isn't speeding or running red lights, they won't get a ticket.
And there will be a camera to prove it.

Cameras are a good thing
Transparency is good, but only if applied to law enforcement. Let's video everything.
I have nothing to hide.

And lets get 100% of guns out of the street
with camera and sensors to tell us when a gun is on the street
(after changing the laws)

and let's reclassify mass shootings as terrorist wmd events, and let's deal with it, like was done in Oklahoma City.
19 kids died in Oklahoma, 20 kids in CT, plus 6 adults
I see no difference, so let's treat it the same

and if there are laws to get the streets free of guns (while letting private owners keep their guns in the house), then it will stop these incidents

I would have zero tolerance for mass shootings.
And say 25 years added to sentences for anyone who fires more than one shot in the street.
(also have zero release of names of shooters, that way they avoid becoming famous from nutjobs).

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:36 AM

10. Ok....

Do you think Adam Lanza was thinking about the law when he did what he did?

I live in a bad area. One of the kids I know here comes up to chat when I am outside for smokes. Some months ago he showed me a sawed off shotgun he had hidden in his pants. He is 17 and I am guessing he stole it (said it was his uncles'). He smokes pot and drinks as well.

He and his friends steal things and sell them (mostly bikes but sometimes guns and tools).

I doubt a day goes by he is not breaking some law or other, and I know, off hand, 4 other kids like him I see daily here.

I have witnessed people, time and again, breaking into abandoned homes here and the cops do nothing. I caught two guys breaking into my old house, got their plate (was a dealer plate), called the cops, and when they finally came out did not even write a report or record their plate number (I later found the dealer and found out that the plate was stolen - you can get dealer plate info here in Ohio from the BMV).

With a phone call I can buy just about any drug, weapons, etc and have them delivered to my damn front door.

Make more laws, let's see how well they get enforced, especially in poorer areas of town. Once a week for months, and that is no exaggeration, I saw people breaking into my x's house that was on the foreclosure list and called the cops. Not once, ever, was anyone arrested ---people said they were with the bank...they were not, cops did not check and told them to put things back and move on. They had a key - Bank of America uses 2 keys nationwide for locks they put on foreclosures and lots of people have them. The cops see they have a key, shrug, and tell them without the paperwork they can't take things.

I have watched people I can tell are career criminals do this time and again around here. I have even taken photos of them doing it - and nothing gets done.

Laws do not make us safer unless they are enforced, and we need to focus on that first - but it takes time and a lot of money (read more taxes).

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:51 AM

13. Street crime can be solved with $$$ and jobs. Crimesof opportunity. Don't see the connection.

 

and two wrongs don't make a right. but I don't see the connection between banks
and mass murderers and hackers.

Who cares about a bank? What the hell does banks have to do with mass murderers?
NOTHING
take the banks to a bank thread.

There are a million issues out there.
You have your personal issues, I will stick with mine.
I am sure many others will have your issues.
Many others will have mine.

This kids doings really are not my concern, just as it appears gun killings don't seem to bother the NRA or their backers.

I am more interested in a guilty verdict for Zimmerman the judge jury executioner in Florida.
You must agree, he shot an innocent kid to death just to watch him die, and either the death penalty(if he is conviceted and its a death penalty charge), or life in prison for him

I more care about those Asian children who are pressed so hard in school, that if they get an
a minus, they kill themselves, not able to take the pressure.
What are your feelings of the 100s who kill themselves each year because they consider
an A- a bad grade?
But then we all have our personal issues.

Of course, the 20 kids who died in CT won't get a chance to grow up to cure cancer or be criminals or a hacker, because their personal choice has been taken away from them from a gun.

And Mr. Trayvon Martin won't grow up to cure Alzheimer's.
All because of a gun and a bullet.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:03 AM

14. "All because of a gun and a bullet"

All because of a person actually. One who probably had broken the law before and was not gone after....

In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest, after shoving an officer while a friend of Zimmerman's was being questioned about underage drinking. The charges were reduced, then dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program. Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiance filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence.

"Who cares about a bank? What the hell does banks have to do with mass murderers?
NOTHING
take the banks to a bank thread. "

Um, who do you think finances gun companies, wars, drones, drug lords, etc?

Every gun company in the US and dealers use banks to keep in business, and the banks make a lot of money off of them.

From a UK website:

Board Chairman letter
Copy,paste and adapt to make it personal


Dear Chairman,
I believe it is your responsibility to ensure that the affairs of (insert name of bank) are conducted to the highest ethical business standards. As a customer and/or shareholder I wish to know whether the bank is funding enterprises involved in the production or distribution of arms and if it is whether you will, in your position as chairman, ensure that any such investment is in future discontinued on ethical grounds, rather than merely ensuring compliance with present legislation and government guidelines. HSBC seems to manage well enough without investing in arms. Yours sincerely,

(customer/share holder)


http://www.noguns.co.uk/banks.html

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:12 AM

15. Let's call the NRA a terror org. and then freeze all their assets, no matter what bank they are in

 

and let's make contributing to the NRA equal to contributing to a terror organization

and then let's fight guns under the war powers act, as we have and continue to as authorized three times by Congress, a war on terrror, and the president can do whatever he wants as Congress authorized any war on terror and the patriot act three times.

If they reclassify things to terror, then not doing something as you say would be wrong.

So let's do something.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:22 AM

16. so you're whole thing is sarcasm?

classic

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Response to Tunkamerica (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:27 AM

17. no, I am dead serious. Guns are WMDs. I see no difference between Oklahoma City & Ct. Killings

 

19 kids in Oklahoma City
20 kids and 6 adults in CT
3000 people on 9-11
it's all the same, dead=dead

so let's treat it as terror and do similiar

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:14 AM

8. Way to generalize about suicide. Maybe he felt bullied?

Wouldn't you, if the federal government was coming after you for what many have claimed to be the equivalent of borrowing too many library books?

The point was that it's sad which laws are being enforced to the fullest possible (and what some would call a ridiculous) extent, and which aren't, and suggesting a re-appraisal of priorities. I'm sure you realize that, though.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:42 PM

19. Very true. If they aren't enforcing the ones we have now, what good are new ones? They

 

make sure to protect the big corporations from illegal downloading, but when your house gets robbed in many states they'll just tell you to go online and fill out a form for your insurance. Police don't have time to deal with your break in but they'll show up when wallmart calls in a shoplifter for a 5 dollar item. LEO's purpose is to protect the government and the corporation. Neither have any money lost to illegal gun sales, so until after someone gets shot no one cares and no one shows up.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:52 AM

4. Of Course the NRA and GOA will scream this they have allies in Congress who just defund

 

and underfund the BATF and block appointments of directors.

But most people have no clue that this has been going on for a long time now and is a favorite tactic of the RW, defund/under fund program then scream how it is a worthless org….. rinse, wash, repeat.



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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:53 AM

5. This will be one of many. I also like the law requiring 100,000 plus sigs. on a petition

 

to stop the Orly Taitz and other conspiracy theorists from wasting taxpayer money like the NRA does

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:38 AM

11. Then count on the NRA to NOW claim it is unreasonable to enforce the laws.

It is how Republicans work! They whine and whine and whine and if someone listens to them and says "okay let's do that you just wanted" then they pivot about and whine about how unreasonable that is too.

It's the Republican Way and let's face it, the NRA is a Republican organization so they use the same playbook.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:46 AM

12. The NRA was just grabbing what everyone has been advocating.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:04 AM

18. That's fine. then the president should frame his announcement along the lines of...

"I am now going to outline a series of measures that myself, VP Biden and the NRA have agreed are what are needed..."

This groups the NRA in with his statement and puts the ball of partial responsibility of the gun changes upon them.

watch the gun nuts implode in a short circuit of contradiction.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:46 PM

20. Did I miss something?

Reading thru his Executive Orders only one: Releasing a DOJ report on Lost and Stolen, seems to touch on the issue of Straw purchases.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:50 PM

21. No, I think NBC News was a little optimistic last night

The 23 EOs don't add up to "enforce existing laws".

Oh, well, maybe after the next massacre.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:53 PM

22. Straws don't normally lead to mass killing

So they don't catch the headlines.

But they are a real part of the everyday firearms deaths in cities all over this country.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:58 PM

24. Yes, I think they are a big source of gang armament.

Not just the ones exported to Mexico for the cartels.

One of the EOs might help a little:
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

... but only if it leads to prosecution of straw buyers, sellers, and dealers who habitually participate in this.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:55 PM

23. Sorry, "Enforcing existing laws"

is an NRA talking point. If you are not a deep cover RW troll, please come back with a valid argument.

For any who missed it-

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:27 PM

25. Everyone always says 'enforce the laws on the books'.

It is not possible. I am no longer a prosecutor but I was one for a major city. While in law school I worked at an U.S. Attorney's office. It is absolutely impossible to enforce all laws and prosecute all crimes. There is simply not enough people, money or resources.

Ask any prosecutor about the "straw purchases" law. It is nearly impossible to obtain a conviction with that law unless the defendant confesses. Priorities must be set. We should get aggressive with mental illness in terms of institutionalism. The idea of getting doctors to report is a huge mistake. People will not tell the truth when seeking mental health or they simply will not go.

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