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Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:04 PM

A historical reminder for Prohibitionists of all stripes

Some of you may remember this quote as read by Peter Coyote in Ken Burns' excellent
mini-series Prohibition. It's from a speech by evangelist Billy Sunday given as the Eighteenth Amendment
banning alcohol was about to go into effect:

"The reign of tears is over. The slums will soon be a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and corncribs. Men will walk upright now, women will smile and children will laugh. Hell will be forever for rent."

You may very well get the laws you want- but the effects you expect those laws to bring about
might be a different story...

66 replies, 4495 views

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Arrow 66 replies Author Time Post
Reply A historical reminder for Prohibitionists of all stripes (Original post)
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 OP
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #1
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #2
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #22
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #27
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #35
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #39
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #48
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #3
99Forever Jan 2013 #16
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #26
99Forever Jan 2013 #28
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #37
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #54
upaloopa Jan 2013 #4
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #5
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #18
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #24
DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #59
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #63
Squinch Jan 2013 #55
Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #6
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #19
derby378 Jan 2013 #21
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #30
derby378 Jan 2013 #52
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #7
Squinch Jan 2013 #56
Taverner Jan 2013 #8
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #11
green for victory Jan 2013 #9
CalFresh Jan 2013 #10
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #12
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #13
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #15
DanTex Jan 2013 #14
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #17
DanTex Jan 2013 #23
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #31
DanTex Jan 2013 #38
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #41
DanTex Jan 2013 #46
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #49
DanTex Jan 2013 #51
Squinch Jan 2013 #57
snooper2 Jan 2013 #20
RainDog Jan 2013 #25
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #45
Berserker Jan 2013 #29
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #42
bongbong Jan 2013 #32
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #33
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #36
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #40
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #43
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #44
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #47
Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #53
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #58
Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #60
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #61
maxsolomon Jan 2013 #34
EOTE Jan 2013 #50
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #62
EOTE Jan 2013 #64
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #65
EOTE Jan 2013 #66

Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:06 PM

1. Exactly, we should do *nothing* because if we did something we might make a mistake n/t

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:07 PM

2. Almost no one is proposing a prohibition.

That's a red-herring.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:49 PM

22. The temperance movement didn't start out as the "enforced teetotaling" movement.

But it certainly became that, didn't it?

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:55 PM

27. Ahhh ... so because THAT happened, we must shrug and do nothing ...

Well ... ummm ... no. Not this time.

Either the gun advocates can HELP figure out how we limit civilian access to certain highly deadly weapons, or ... and this is the part that should worry you ... the rest of us should simply DROP you from the discussion of what to do next.

If you want to avoid a prohibition ... then you need to get engaged in a rational discussion on this topic ... or, you will be dropped from that discussion because you add no value.

The NRA has been able to stop all discussion in the past using the same tactic you are using. No more.

The American people have figured that out ... so now, you can either help find some sensible gun laws, or the rest of us will do it.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:20 PM

35. You're going to DROP the 20 to 25% of Americans that own guns from the discussion?

I think not.

More to the point, they probably think not- and they are mostly over 18 and vote at a high rate.
You lot can shout "NRA!" 'til the cows come home, but they represent at best 5% of US gun owners.

Good luck with convincing the other 95% percent that they are a threat to society and should just
go along quietly with what you propose because it's for the best, dontcha know...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:29 PM

39. You seem confused ... since I did not say drop ALL gun owners from the discussion.

That's another great false NRA strawman.

We already know that the majority of NRA members support some restrictions. And so, many of that 20-25% are VERY WELCOME in the discussion.

However when the discussion starts, they scream, as you did ... that any such discussion is a SLIPPERY SLOPE TO PROHIBITION ... then they get dropped.

The small, but extremely vocal group who thinks any such discussion is unreasonable, provide no value to the discussion.

If they engage, they participate only to ensure that no progress can be made. And so we don;t need them (you).

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:48 PM

48. You lot seem confused about the NRA and me. I don't dig them at all, and disagree with them...

...on several issues, most notably their being the de facto armed wing of the Republican Party and my
advocacy of universal background checks for all firearms transfers

I understand they're a useful shorthand for 'people that disagree with me', but as Mark Twain
is supposed to have said once: "It's not what you don't know, it's what you think you know that isn't so"

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:09 PM

3. Sigh...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:41 PM

16. Excellent response.

Might I use that also?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:54 PM

26. By all means! n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:59 PM

28. Tanks, me likie! n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:26 PM

37. What? No "NRA talking point(s)"? -1 for insufficient use of...

..proper word magic.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:20 PM

54. +100

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:10 PM

4. You live in fear. You respond to fear and you

Promote fear.
Some of us are motivated be reason and not fear.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:10 PM

5. A reminder for morons: Drugs and booze are not guns.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:43 PM

18. But the culture war against those that use them are almost the same.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:53 PM

24. Not really, no

"culture war"? If there's a culture war, it's urban vs rural, people who grew up hunting, got an air rifle as kids and then a .22, were taught to shoot from an early age, who live in the sparsely-populated rural countryside, in the South, and the Midwest, vs people who live in densely populated urban areas where there's nowhere to hunt and no good reason to have a gun. It doesn't really help that a lot of those rural gun-owning Southerners and Midwesterners and Westerners are the descendants of violent Scots-Irish rednecks who've inherited a cultural distrust of government reinforced over generations in sparsely populated areas with weak government and police protection (and a lot of urban residents are descendants of more recent immigrants, or more recent immigrants themselves, from places with no history and culture of private firearms ownership).

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:01 PM

59. in other words

You said
t doesn't really help that a lot of those rural gun-owning Southerners and Midwesterners and Westerners are the descendants of violent Scots-Irish rednecks who've inherited a cultural distrust of government reinforced over generations in sparsely populated areas with weak government and police protection

I humbly offer a translation"
England always treated the Celts like shit, and used the idea of Empire to placate them instead of actually integrating them into society.

"hey you annoying prats, quit bothering us in London! We already gave you Canada, Australia, North America, Africa, and India to colonize, all you have to do is kill the native brown people and remember to send us most of the bloody profits!"

Add to this that when America became independent, the colonization germ remained intact. In places like Canada and Australia, it died off, not because they were any less eager or able to do genocide, but because England let them become commonwealths, places that were still part of the Empire, but just had to bow to the Empire rather than kowtow to it the way the brown subjects do. Also,to their credit, many of them, though sadly not all, (as Stephen Harper proves) realized that Empire was a racket, and they really did not want to grow up like their old, bitter Mother England. Also, because their governments were younger, they were able to let a lot of British Colonial ideas simply walk out to pasture.

America did not break with Empire, and indeed, it's problem was that many of the "founding fathers" were people that were actually better at the Empire game than King George, the guy who died in the looney bin. George Washington started the French and Indian war, which is the only reason Le Quebecois are considered "Canadian." His reward was a tax on his tea, for which he said "Screw London, why should they get the profits when we do the work?" And of course, to this day, Imperialist still put on the wigs and funny hats, as if to claim kinship with the secular saints.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:20 PM

63. Not exactly

If you want some actual insight into what I'm talking about, try reading this, and this, and this, for a start. The people who settled much of the South came from a much more violent culture than most other British colonists, a more fiercely independent culture, and one more resistant to the imposition of authority; this is a culture that has persisted, in many ways, up to the present.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:27 PM

55. Waaaaait a minute. You mean a gin and tonic is not the same as an assault weapon? Now I'm all

confusipated...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:11 PM

6. Australia enacted strict gun control and they haven't had a massacre since then.

Your precious toys are still available in Australia, but they are highly regulated. Gun control works. We can stop having routine massacres if we want to.

The comparison to prohibition is specious.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:46 PM

19. Australia never had a gun culture like ours, or a culture war surrounding their guns.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:47 PM

21. Mexico enacted strict gun control and they haven't had a massacre since - oh, wait...

I might also add that Mexico's gun-control laws were imposed in 1967 by a tyrant. With blood on his hands, IIRC.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:06 PM

30. And Mexico is largely anarchic and run by drug cartels.

Thanks in part to the USA's war on drugs and American demand for their product.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:15 PM

52. I'm okay with legalizing marijuana - that would help make a dent in trafficking

But they can keep their damned meth. I have loved ones who almost threw their lives away because of that stuff.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:11 PM

7. See post 87. eom

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:29 PM

56. Snort!

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:11 PM

8. Nobody is taking away your guns.

 

The President is discussing an Executive Order that helps ENFORCE existing laws, not taking guns off the street

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Response to Taverner (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:12 PM

11. Shhhhhhhh!!!

 

We can't stop a a rihgt wing meltdown with facts now!

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:12 PM

9. prohibit,mandate,compel,comply? i don't think so...

 

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:12 PM

10. So true.

 

Laws don't change people. It just gives the government the power to put you in jail when you don't change.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:21 PM

12. Those Prohibitions were bad and ill intentioned but ours is noble and enlightened

Lather Rinse Repeat...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:31 PM

13. President Obama believes in prohibition

Indeed, the administrations profound support for prohibition was reiterated just the other day.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:39 PM

15. Some here clearly do

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:37 PM

14. Is this about the prohibition of child porn? Are you saying we should just allow it?

Prohibitions never work, so what's the point? Is that the argument?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:42 PM

17. Child porn is nowhere near as popular (thank YHPOC!) as guns and booze.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:52 PM

23. It might be, if it wasn't, umm, prohibited.

The problem is, once you concede that whether a certain prohibition succeeds depends on the thing being prohibited, your entire argument is out the window. Because, to believe that the market for guns and the market for alcohol, on either the demand or the supply side, are even remotely similar, would require an unfathomable level of stupidity.

That's the problem with NRA talking points -- you can't think about them very hard or they vanish.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:09 PM

31. I rather doubt 20-25% of the population would be into child porn.

I'd also point out that child porn in and of itself is harmful, as children are harmed in the making of it
It's perfectly possible to own guns without harming anyone or anything (save your finances and your hearing),
and indeed most gun owners do not harm anyone

Of course, the anti-gun culture warriors are quite unwilling to acknowledge that and prefer some vague
reference to a supposed 'moral harm'- hence the strenuous efforts here and elsewhere to paint gun owners
as murderers-in-waiting and/or RW militia types.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:27 PM

38. Wait, wait, wait, I thought the OP was against "prohibitionists of all stripes"!

So now there are a whole bunch of conditions that you want to take into account to determine which prohibitions are good and which are bad! Wow! Careful, you're straying far from the NRA talking point here.

And the big problem, as I pointed out in my last post, is that the more caveats and nuances you add, the weaker the argument gets. Because guns and alcohol are completely different at many different levels. The "prohibitions are bad" talking point doesn't work any more if you expose it to logic.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:34 PM

41. I am neither for nor against. I point out they rarely turn out they way they are supposed to.

Yeah, yeah, I know- this one will be different as your strength is as the stregth of ten, yadda yadda yadda...

And "NRA talking point"? That little bit of attempted word magic is particularly irrelevant here
as I have no truck with the NRA. You might wish to speak with the management here,
as your search function appears to be broken...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:41 PM

46. What do you mean "they"?

The prohibition on child pornography is going pretty well. So is the prohibition on asbestos, and leaded gasoline, and thalidomide. And the prohibition on (newly manufactured) machine guns. Not to mention Japan's gun prohibition. Or the UK handgun prohibition. Etc.

You know, you still haven't made a single argument against gun control. I know you really, really hate prohibition of alcohol, but that is absolutely irrelevant to the gun debate.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:02 PM

49. I rarely drink, gave up on cannabis long ago, and own no guns.

Shit, I don't even use tobacco. Anyway, there never were tetraethyl lead, asbestos, or thalidomide
'cultures' in the US. Prohibting them was never going to be controversial, save for those making money off them

There was and still are fairly robust drinking and gun cultures (and a cannabis one, too) in the United States.
The alcohol and cannabis prohibtions were as much cultural warfare as public health concerns (see
Harry J. Anslinger, Fredric Wertham, Wayne Weaver), and those particular Prohibitionists were
certain that their bete noirs were going to disappear as well. How'd that turn out?

I don't see any postulated gun Prohibtion turning out any differently. Having said that, I will add that
I see little, if any chance of one being enacted.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #49)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:12 PM

51. Yes, we know that you really hate prohibition.

Again, guns and alcohol have nothing to do with each other. Other then the fact that both are forms of "prohibition", there is nothing in common between gun control and alcohol prohibition. Well, that and the fact that you hate both of them.

But there is not any logical reason to think that gun control would fail for any of the same reasons. Like I said, both the supply and the demand are drastically different. You might as well argue that prohibition failed and therefore we shouldn't try healthcare reform either...

And the reason you keep arguing against prohibition of alcohol is because you can't make a coherent argument against gun control that has anything to do with guns.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:32 PM

57. So the badness of the prohibition is dependent on how popular the prohibited item is?

That pretty handily contradicts your own OP.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:47 PM

20. I don't think keeping dogs off the liquor will really hurt us any....

Somebody needs to watch out for them-


http://www.youtube.com/user/hahatv?v=BhQgLxZbNUs

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:54 PM

25. moderation in all things n/t

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Response to RainDog (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:39 PM

45. True. The gun Prohibtionists will "represent" all gun control advocates, just as...

Ted Nugent and the guy that threatened to shoot people that violated his Second Amendment rights
"represent" all gun owners.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:05 PM

29. Thank You

 

For posting this

You may very well get the laws you want- but the effects you expect those laws to bring about
might be a different story...


Bravo!

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Response to Berserker (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:35 PM

42. Not only do they forget history, they forgot Santayana:

"Those that forget history are condemned to repeat it"

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:12 PM

32. I know what you'e talking about

 

Just look at how unsuccessful the 1934 law banning fully automatic guns was, and also how many other gun-banning laws came after it.





You Delicate Flowers and your CTs. Hilarious and pathetic - at the same time! Quite an accomplishment.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:16 PM

33. Well well well

Looks like we've gone from "It'll never happen ever ever evwer so say whatever you want gun grabber!" to "You may very well get the laws you want."

I'll take it!

We'll deal with the implementation as it comes, despite the noxious and juvenile threats of the gun nuts.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:22 PM

36. I'm sure that the 80 million gun owners in the US will be perfectly happy to...

...criminalize themselves once they see the light of sweet reason.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:32 PM

40. You are going to need a lot more Straw.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:36 PM

43. Yeah yeah, we know- "*This* one will be different!"

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:37 PM

44. I find if you keep the TV turned down low enough, you can hear the Helicopters

about 2 minutes before they arrive.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:41 PM

47. I rather doubt it will happen, personally. You might, however, wish to have a word or two...

...with your 'allies' (for want of a better term) here at DU who advocate for just such a thing.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:15 PM

53. Most, 99%, will be fine with any new regulations.

But a few extremists will go down with their cap pistols blazing.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:35 PM

58. And some of the extremists

 

will have meltdown posts on DU before they go down cap pistols blazing.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:04 PM

60. They already are over the NYS law.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:08 PM

61. Looks like there will be a lot of 'em PePpeReD soon.

 

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:19 PM

34. Slipping and sliding down the slippery slope! Just one step & it's all over!

Even Prohibition had exemptions - manufacturing processes, sacremental wine. Try again.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:10 PM

50. I know. Machine gun prohibition turned out so fucking awful, right?

I cried during Sandy Hook when I thought to myself "If only Adam Lanza had a machine gun, he would have surely been stopped by a much better, bigger man with a machine gun and those kids would be alive today." Oh wait...

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Response to EOTE (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:20 PM

62. Machine guns were never owned by many, nothing like semi-auto proliferation.

I suspect a ban on private ownership of jet fighters would work out too, no numbers to contend with in legal hands to start.

The 1934 ban almost exclusively impacted gangsters not law abiding citizens, this an order of magnitude heavier lift, impacting a far broader swath of the population and even with that there was no actual ban, folks own such weapons to this very day.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #62)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 06:50 AM

64. Ahhh, so it's only because of the proliferation of semi-autos that this wouldn't work.

So if many more people owned machine guns in 1934, THEN the machine gun ban wouldn't have been a good thing. Yeah, that makes plenty of sense.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:32 PM

65. Common use is a threshold whether you like it or not, has ZERO to do with "good",

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:54 AM

66. Common use is a bullshit indicator of whether or not something should stay.

Slaves were "common use" as well. I guess we should have stuck with that grand ol' tradition. What a foolish comment.

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