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Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:06 PM

 

The FBI, ATF and LEO were blameless in Waco and Ruby Ridge

Stockpile guns, ammo and bombs and expect them to play nice? Please!

Leave gasoline around and when a fire starts, scream bloody murder?

Start pointing guns at LEO and I'm surprised ANYONE was left over.

They had it coming.


Discuss...

105 replies, 6052 views

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Reply The FBI, ATF and LEO were blameless in Waco and Ruby Ridge (Original post)
Taverner Jan 2013 OP
tblue Jan 2013 #1
TheCowsCameHome Jan 2013 #2
Taverner Jan 2013 #3
Recursion Jan 2013 #4
Taverner Jan 2013 #5
Recursion Jan 2013 #6
Ter Jan 2013 #10
nick of time Jan 2013 #13
Taverner Jan 2013 #18
tabasco Jan 2013 #22
former9thward Jan 2013 #24
Taverner Jan 2013 #34
former9thward Jan 2013 #46
nick of time Jan 2013 #9
Hoyt Jan 2013 #52
nick of time Jan 2013 #55
nick of time Jan 2013 #14
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #37
struggle4progress Jan 2013 #73
Recursion Jan 2013 #94
Hoyt Jan 2013 #28
Recursion Jan 2013 #29
Hoyt Jan 2013 #39
Bake Jan 2013 #80
Hoyt Jan 2013 #81
Comrade_McKenzie Jan 2013 #7
Recursion Jan 2013 #8
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #40
Downwinder Jan 2013 #11
Taverner Jan 2013 #19
Hayabusa Jan 2013 #50
Downwinder Jan 2013 #63
Hayabusa Jan 2013 #65
Downwinder Jan 2013 #69
Hayabusa Jan 2013 #70
Rex Jan 2013 #12
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #15
99Forever Jan 2013 #30
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #47
99Forever Jan 2013 #54
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #62
99Forever Jan 2013 #72
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #85
Th1onein Jan 2013 #88
99Forever Jan 2013 #96
Th1onein Jan 2013 #98
Th1onein Jan 2013 #99
jberryhill Jan 2013 #79
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #84
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #16
Taverner Jan 2013 #17
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #20
Taverner Jan 2013 #21
Recursion Jan 2013 #23
DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #48
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #25
Hoyt Jan 2013 #42
beevul Jan 2013 #57
Hoyt Jan 2013 #59
beevul Jan 2013 #86
Th1onein Jan 2013 #89
bongbong Jan 2013 #26
Taverner Jan 2013 #31
nick of time Jan 2013 #45
Recursion Jan 2013 #49
RZM Jan 2013 #53
DanTex Jan 2013 #67
nick of time Jan 2013 #71
DanTex Jan 2013 #75
nick of time Jan 2013 #76
DanTex Jan 2013 #77
nick of time Jan 2013 #78
bongbong Jan 2013 #105
zappaman Jan 2013 #27
watch the sky Jan 2013 #32
Taverner Jan 2013 #35
watch the sky Jan 2013 #41
petronius Jan 2013 #33
Recursion Jan 2013 #36
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #38
Hoyt Jan 2013 #43
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #44
graham4anything Jan 2013 #51
patrice Jan 2013 #58
graham4anything Jan 2013 #87
patrice Jan 2013 #93
patrice Jan 2013 #56
Taitertots Jan 2013 #60
WinkyDink Jan 2013 #61
NNN0LHI Jan 2013 #64
Th1onein Jan 2013 #90
DanTex Jan 2013 #66
nick of time Jan 2013 #74
Paladin Jan 2013 #97
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #103
Iggo Jan 2013 #68
PufPuf23 Jan 2013 #82
Union Scribe Jan 2013 #83
Bodega Bandit Jan 2013 #91
Recursion Jan 2013 #95
Tom Ripley Jan 2013 #101
Recursion Jan 2013 #102
Tom Ripley Jan 2013 #104
Demo_Chris Jan 2013 #92
Tom Ripley Jan 2013 #100

Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:36 PM

1. What's 'LEO'? nt

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Response to tblue (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:40 PM

2. Law Enforcement Officers, I believe.

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:01 PM

3. Yep, Law Enforcement Officer

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:01 PM

4. Then why was Weaver exonerated and given a huge settlement?

Even his friend who killed the US Marshall was found to have acted in self-defense.

Waco is a different story, but Ruby Ridge was an absolute disaster full of Bush-family shenanigans, and is still taught as What Not To Do.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:09 PM

5. Weaver started firing first. That alone should be enough.

 

I don't know why the case was ruled as it was, but perhaps nutter sympathizers were out there.

Weaver is a domestic terrorist, and he exposed his family to that risk by being such.

Weaver should have been charged with his own kid's death, but Clinton, having grown up among the inbred down there, knows it could have backfired.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:15 PM

6. The Marshalls claimed that, Weaver claimed the opposite. The jury believed Weaver

Given the sheer amount of lies the ATF and US Marshalls were irrefutably caught in in that case, I don't think I would have believed them in that jury either. Weaver didn't even have to offer a defense; he was acquitted

Weaver should have been charged with his own kid's death, but Clinton, having grown up among the inbred down there, knows it could have backfired.

"Down there"? It was in northern Idaho. The trial was a Federal jury in Boise.

Even racist scumbags have a right not to have agents take wild shots at their family, and to not be lied to about their court date.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:25 PM

10. The Marshalls likely lied

 

I'll always view Lon Horiuchi as a murderer.

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Response to Ter (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:27 PM

13. Why that man wasn't convicted of murder for shooting Vicky

 

while she was holding her baby is beyond me.
And to top it off, he was given a commendation by the FBI for his actions on Ruby Ridge that day.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:06 PM

18. I'll take the word of a LEO over a racist nutbag any day nt

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:16 PM

22. I truly wish I could concur with your reasoning

but I've seen police lie in court way too many times.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:26 PM

24. You are an authoritarian.

You will take the word of anyone wearing a badge no matter how bizarre their testimony.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:57 PM

34. Nope. But when it comes to crazy racist vs several cops with same story

 

#2 wins every time

What I can't understand is that both guys were dangerous and one (Koresh) was holding people againt their will - and yet everyone's cries rivers for them here...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:15 PM

46. "several cops with same story"

Nothing more needs be said.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:23 PM

9. Perhaps you should read the trial transcripts

 

Gerry Spence didn't even put one single defense witness on the stand because he caught the govt. in so many lies that he felt he had won the case, which turned out to be true.
Also, read the transcripts of the congressional hearings, Agent Byerle of the ATF is absolutely caught in numerous lies by then Sen. Arlen Spector.

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Response to nick of time (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:44 PM

52. I doubt anyone could vouch for weaver's character, and Spencer couldn't put that racist POS on stand

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:53 PM

55. Weaver's character was nothing more than a racist asshole.

 

But thats not the point here, the govt. acted so egregiously and then lied about it at the trial that Spence didn't need to call a single defense witness, he knew he had won his case.
Would you agree that nobody won at Ruby Ridge, it was a tragedy on both sides that didn't need to happen?
3 lives were lost which is a tragedy.
U.S. Marshal Degan
Sammy Weaver
Vicky Weaver.
May all rest in peace.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:30 PM

14. Not true.

 

The Marshal's fired first when they killed Stryker, Sammy's dog, and when an autopsy was done on Sammy, it was determined that he had been shot in the back while running away.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:59 PM

37. Accounts vary.

And frankly, despite the only survivor on the Weaver side of the initial firefight being a racist dickhead, his account is more plausible (a POV with which the jury in the 1993 trial seems to have agreed). Cops lie. Cops that shoot civilians lie a lot. Cops that shoot fleeing 14 year old boys lie a whole lot.

Most of the Feds' actions subsequent to the initial attack are dubious at best, too. Vicki Harris was outright murdered by sniper Lon Horiuchi. He was indicted on manslaughter charges, but the trial was moved into federal jurisdiction and the charge dismissed under "sovereign immunity." This decision was reversed by the Ninth Circuit Court in 2000, but the new county prosecutor controversially declined to press the case, citing "too much time" having passed.

Every internal review by the Feds has been harshly critical of the entire fucked-up operation. Weaver was never convicted of any charge beyond the original failure-to-appear count (and Spence didn't even bother offering a defense...he just gutted every prosecution witness).

Believe me, I'm not trying to defend Weaver here. He's a racist idiot. But there were no heroes at Ruby Ridge...only villains.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:28 PM

73. it was a settlement: the case never went to trial

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:20 AM

94. Weaver's case against the US was settled

The US's case against Weaver went to trial, and then went down in flames.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:49 PM

28. If weaver hadn't sold illegal guns in hopes of racist ayran nation using them against innocents,

the whole thing would never happened. But, weaver -- like a lot in gun culture -- was just another callous, racist turned on by guns and hatred.

For months the Feds gave him every opportunity to surrender, instead weaver hid behind his family with his guns and hatred.

So, if weaver had not trafficked illegal guns to a racist organization to further their terrorist activities, or had surrendered as the feds encouraged him to do over months and months and months -- nothing would have happened and the feds would not have made any mistakes.

Guns and hatred . . . . . .

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:51 PM

29. He was acquitted on all those charges, too

He was only found guilty of missing his court date.

I'm not fond of declaring people guilty because I dislike them.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:02 PM

39. If we had gerry spence and an army of racist/gun lawyers behind us, we could get off from anything.

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)


He did it. They let the pitiful f&#ker off for political reasons. I suspect many in the jury were no better than weaver.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 09:01 PM

80. Gerry Spence was just a damn good trial lawyer.

You obviously know nothing about Spence or about Ruby Ridge.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 09:10 PM

81. I'm just not steeped in guns and ruby ridge cess pool stuff.

Christ, surprised someone ain't quoting turner diaries type crud.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:16 PM

7. If people want to live as extremists, then they should expect to die as extremists...

 

Eventually, the agents surrounding your compound of lunacy will be under a lot of pressure and exhaustion...

And people like me will blame you for putting the children in harm's way... not the government.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:18 PM

8. He's a free man today, and his family is $4 million richer

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

All the government managed to do here was make sure he had enough money to buy whatever guns he wants.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:05 PM

40. Jury Nullification happens n/t

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:27 PM

11. Can we add Wounded Knee to your OP?

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:07 PM

19. No but we can add Battle of the Network Stars

 

Seriously, ever hear the term oxymoronic?

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:36 PM

50. Please tell me you're referring to the 1970s one,

not the 1870s...

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Response to Hayabusa (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:52 PM

63. AIM 1973.

however 1890 would also be appropriate, dancers are dangerous. Note: Circle Dance, Jitterbug, Hip-Hop, and Rock

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:06 PM

65. Ghost Dance sure was dangerous

Too bad it didn't work like they thought it would...

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Response to Hayabusa (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:17 PM

69. With the assistance of the US Army

it united them with the Ancestors.

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:20 PM

70. Ouch...

And I still can't believe that some soldiers got a Medal of Honor for their oh-so-heroic actions that day...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:27 PM

12. LEOs could have picked up Koresh at a local gas station

but instead let him go back to his compound. That was a mistake imo.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:51 PM

15. Look at these photos. This is America. Men, woman and children. There was no trial

 

They were executed. These are photos taken on American soil. Was this really the only way to handle this situation?



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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:53 PM

30. Yes they were executed.

By their baby-raping, illegal gun trading, leader, one "David Koresh."

Too bad that cowardly fucking asshole CHOSE to have his henchmen light the place on fire and take out so many innocents with him.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:03 PM

47. Are you OK with tanks running through American citizens homes before they even get a trial?

 

The feds knew David K went to town often. They stake out people all the time. Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to throw some road spikes out on him on his way to town? Save the taxpayers a lot of money and the lives of those children. The feds knew there were children in there. If they thought he was such a threat, surely they would have considered the children... Guess they were just collateral damage.

So admittedly the feds made mistakes here. Knowing this, is it OK with you that feds ram tanks into homes in America - especially knowing there are children involved?

I don't care what he was charged with. This is America not China.

Oh that's right, this is proof, this kinda thing IS America.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:48 PM

54. Hogwash.

Save it for the Teabaggers. Your baby-raping hero FORCED the confrontation. If he wanted a trial, all he had to do is surrender at any point in the stand off. He CHOSE to end the lives of everyone in that building. Your baby-raping hero has 100% of the responsibility for ALL of those deaths, every one of them. End of story.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:46 PM

62. So do you believe it's OK for LEO to run tanks through American citizens homes

 

without a trial, knowing there are children in the house?

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:26 PM

72. I believe that when..

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2013, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)

... LEO come to your door with legitimate search and arrest WARRANTS and you are stupid, evil, rancid piece of human trash that deals in illegal guns and rapes children, you should surrender, instead of using women and children as a shield, but that's not your cowardly hero did. I'm done with you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:47 AM

85. There's my answer.

 

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:15 AM

88. So it's okay for LEO to run a TANK through your house? With children inside?

Huh? Are you kidding me?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #88)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:32 AM

96. Since I don't rape children...

... or traffic in illegal weapons, like the piece of shit you are defending, it isn't a worry for me. Take your libertarian bullshit back to freeperville where it belongs. It doesn't play here.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #96)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:36 PM

98. I'm not defending him. I'm not saying he was innocent or guilty. And you can't either.

Because the man was killed before he could ever stand trial for the crimes alleged against him.

But, remember: The LEOs were there to help the children; they were there BECAUSE of the children. And, yet, the children ended up dying in a fire blaze precipitated by the actions of the LEOs. Is that justice for anyone?

The way that you would have things is that anyone could say anything against anyone, and it's A-ok to run a tank through their house and kill their children.

Sorry, I just can't condone that. And, neither should you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #96)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:41 PM

99. And by the way, I'm not a libertarian.

I'm a liberal, and a pretty left wing liberal, at that. And, you shouldn't lob insults like that at someone simply because they disagree with you.

Oh, and something else? It isn't a worry for you? I beg to differ, buddy. One phone call, from one enemy, and you've got a new piece of furniture in your living room, courtesy of your local law enforcement agency. If you don't stand up for the rights of others, one day, they are coming for YOU. When you protect the rights of others, you are protecting your own rights.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:57 PM

79. You don't hole up and dodge a lawful warrant


Yes we indeed have a number of procedures for carrying out due process. In order to receive due process, you must avail yourself of those procedures.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:02 AM

84. Notice the headline - Mass Suicide.

It was and still is a mass suicide.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 02:40 PM

16. The LEOs disagree with you

and this trollish OP is not getting the responses you hoped for.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:04 PM

17. Who said it isn't?

 

I kind of liked your response...except that it is devoid of links and other comments that might give credence to your opinion...

Oh, and calling me a troll - that kind of diminished from it too.

But other than insults and incomplete information, it's great!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:12 PM

20. At Ruby Ridge alone, 12 FBI agents were disciplined for misconduct

- The actual shooter (who was not Weaver) was acquitted for reasons of self defense
- The FBI collected evidence showed the Marshals were lying about the initial event at the Y
- The Feds paid damages to everyone targeted.
There is much more in the two Federal reports on the matter. Its not that the Weavers were angels...they were scum. However, the Feds, especially the Marshals were well OTT as well. No good guys or winners in that event.

This was all rehashed again recently. What was your reason in dredging it back up again so soon?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:14 PM

21. That's all because this blew up politically

 

Sure, mistakes were made, but they had every right to act that way as there were stockpiles of guns and ammo.

Live by the gun, die by the gun.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:22 PM

23. No, they didn't have every right to. That's why they were disciplined and the Weavers got $4 million

The ATF and US Marshalls' criminal misconduct ended up getting this racist scumbag 4 million dollars. That's how bad it was.

Worse yet, they ended up confirming the very paranoid fantasies that the Weavers and people like them had in the first place.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:28 PM

48. Absolutely you are correct! These very things are the kind of things that make people afraid of

 

their government. Daily we hear another LEO horror story. They mow down family dogs, and 16 year old boys by gunfire. They beat handicapped people, terrorize the elderly, rape woman. Each time it happens it just further feeds their paranoia and in turn it escalates the gun issue.

This kind of behavior by LEO is not OK. Even the courts thus far admit that.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:38 PM

25. Where have I heard that term before..."mistakes were made"

The investigation committees, the courts, the FBI, and many others have come to the common conclusion that the Government acted in bad faith, especially with Ruby Ridge. They compounded that by a series of questionable actions and then attempted to cover it up. Stupid writ large.

While I support neither the Weavers nor the Branch Davidians, the LEOs were responsible for much of what happened and have admitted to such.

Having a quantity of firearms and ammunition are not prima facie illegal nor deserving of being raided over. In both cases the questionable behavior by Federal LEOs were the seminal event in both catastrophes.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:06 PM

42. Hanging with ayran nation racists, and raping women dang sure is. And neither was "raided"


In Koresh's case - law enforcement sat on their asses outside his compound for 51 days. He could have walked out any time.

Weaver had even longer, instead he hid behind his family and continued his racist/gun crud.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:59 PM

57. I guess you forgot the part where ATF showed up in cattle cars without a warrant...

I guess you forgot the part where ATF showed up in cattle cars without a warrant, shot their dogs, and started shooting at them - AFTER being told by ATF Agent Robert Rodriguez - who had been working undercover amongst the davidians - that the raid's secrecy had been compromised.


Revisionist history from you is never unsurprising.

The government still has to follow its own rules, even when dealing with the worst people on earth.

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Response to beevul (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:22 PM

59. Sat outside 51 days before doing a dang thing. Presence of guns clouds your mind.

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:57 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:27 AM

86. History isn't your strong point, Nor, would it appear, is accuracy.

The initial raid, led to a shootout. The initial raid, and the shootout which it spawned, happened on february 28.

So your claim that they "sat outside for 51 days before doing a dang thing", is not accurate. In fact, its completely inaccurate - otherwise known as false.

Looks like you're the one whos mind is clouded due to the presence of guns in the issue.

That or you're deliberately fudging the story.







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Response to Taverner (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:18 AM

89. Sure, because shooting a young boy in the back is always a just and reasonable thing to do.

Good grief.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:43 PM

26. The NRA-bots are out in force!

 

Defending their Precious!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:54 PM

31. Yep, "Randy Weaver was an UHMURICAN HERO!!!"

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:26 PM

45. Randy Weaver was not an american hero.

 

He was a racist asshole, but he and his family sure didn't deserve what happened to them.
Vicky was murdered while holding her baby in her arms by an FBI sniper, the ROE's were changed specifically changed for this event and the FBI was roundly condemned for it.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:30 PM

49. Nobody in this thread has said anything good about Weaver

If you have to make stuff up, that should tell you something.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:45 PM

53. Agree with poster above. Everybody seems to be saying the opposite of that

 

Those commenting here seem to think that Weaver was a bad guy, but that the LEOs did not conduct themselves well in the incident.

I don't really know a whole lot about Ruby Ridge, so I really have nothing to add on that. As for Waco, I basically agree with you. I believe the adults in the compound were responsible for what happened there.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:13 PM

67. Kinda strange.

I don't know too much about Ruby Ridge, but I don't understand why the pro-gunners have such strong feelings about it. Apparently some right-wing nut hides out in the woods, and the Feds show up, and a bunch of people get shot.

And this is enough to provoke decades of anger from gun fanatics.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #67)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:23 PM

71. The only anger it provokes from me is how the Govt. forces

 

conducted themselves during the seige.
Weaver is a racist asshole but the govts. actions were not commendable at all.
Someone in the FBI changed the ROE's just for this event and this is what led to the killing of an unarmed mother holding her baby.
At trial, Gerry Spence caught the FBI in so many lies, he didn't feel the need to call one defense witness to make his case, turned out, he was right.
The Govt. also had to pay out a 4.1 million dollar judgement to the survivors of the Weaver family.
Nobody here is defending Randy Weaver, we're condemning the actions of the ATF, U.S. Marshal's, FBI.

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Response to nick of time (Reply #71)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:34 PM

75. But why this one incident from 20 years ago?

Didn't Weaver hole up in the woods and refuse to come out? I'm not saying he deserved to get his family shot because of that, but still...

This isn't the first or last time that LEOs have done something "not commendable at all". But, in the gun culture, this incident seems to play a role almost as big as, say, Kent State, which to me seems ridiculous.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:41 PM

76. I'm not angry about it anymore.

 

New guidelines are in place to see that this never happens again in the way it went down.
What does bother me is that not one FBI or ATF agent were held accountable for the lies told at Weavers trial or the congressional hearings, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Like you said, it was 20 years ago.

Did you know that Randy Weaver was given a court date that was wrong? His actual court date was a month earlier than what he was told?
Randy was a racist asshole, but Vicky, Sammy, and Marshal Degan sure didn't deserve to die.

I just take great umbrage when something like this OP.

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Response to nick of time (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:49 PM

77. Well, not you specifically.

But generally. I bet if you looked around DU, the people that feel strongly about Ruby Ridge, and who know a lot of details like you do, are also the ones who are strongly pro-gun. And vice-versa.
Did you know that Randy Weaver was given a court date that was wrong? His actual court date was a month earlier than what he was told?

I don't know too many details. But I'm sure there have been other clerical errors that didn't result in a standoff and a gunfight.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:56 PM

78. Probably.

 

Like I said, I was very passionate about it the more I learned.
What scares me is these RW militia who are still using this and the Waco event to justify going to war with the govt.
They are the ones who end up killing innocent people all in the name of fighting the "evil govt."
That was McVeigh's reason for the bombing of the OK. Murrah building.
Several years ago, business took me to OKC, so I decided to visit the memorial site and I'll tell you, if you ever get the chance to visit, do so, it's a very moving expreience.
Brought me to tears.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #67)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:21 PM

105. It shows that one of their most cherished myths ....

 

... the one where they overthrow the gov't with their popguns, is a child's tale (that only a VERY young child would believe)

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:45 PM

27. Wrong.

But others have pointed it out sufficiently....

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:54 PM

32. lawful neutral alignment?

with this LEO talk . . . or you could be just a cop yourself, you sound like one.

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Response to watch the sky (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:58 PM

35. Ooh - at 60 posts sowing discord?

 

Sorry, I'm lazy, and LEO is easier to say than Law Enforcement Officer

And not all those involved were "cops"

But hey, keep on playing!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:05 PM

41. there are more cops around than other LEOs

and I remember Kent State, where the "LEOs" fired on the anti-war protestors and got away with it. And, no I wasn't there sowing discord.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:56 PM

33. Yes, actually, I do expect LE to "play nice"

And no matter how vile the (suspected) criminal, I will always hold LE to the highest possible standard...

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Response to petronius (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:58 PM

36. I particularly expect snipers not to shoot unarmed women holding babies

And then taunt the children trapped inside with their dead mother.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:01 PM

38. Bingo.

My views on Lon Horiuchi, if expressed here, would get me banned in nanoseconds. "Murdering fuck" would be about as gentle as it gets...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:09 PM

43. If the racist gun nut - weaver - had acted responsibily, Horiuchi would not be hated by gun culture.



He would have retired without incident.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:13 PM

44. I don't disagree.

Like I say elsewhere in the thread, there were no heroes at Ruby Ridge.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:43 PM

51. agree with Waco. And it was the masses inside that were the problem, not Koresh himself

 

Janet Reno was more patient than she should have

and they were stockpiling guns (something I was not familiar with back then) and they killed and shot at agents

there is no way one can say they were not guilty

and same with McVeigh

They were terrorists before terrorists were a common word

and it was indeed part of the same rightwing conspiracy we still have.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:01 PM

58. If that's true, one could hypothesize that Reno's concerns about child abuse might have been

justified to some extent.

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Response to patrice (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:34 AM

87. looking back in retrospect Hillary's saying rightwing conspiracy was 100% true in all of this

 

I again have to say I never heard of people stockpiling guns like what they were doing at Waco. Back then, this rightwing extremist gun culture to overthrow a governement was like a million miles away from anyones thinking in my circle (NYC area).
A whole other culture.
But the odd thing is, I had regular business in the late 80s to mid 90s in Dallas, Austin and Houston, and many friends there. And they too never heard of anything like this.

The media portrayed the whole thing wrong, and there was, like now, so much hatred by some of the President that it distorted everything one heard about it.

So first instinct was to wonder, why didn't they just arrest the leader as he frequently was on his own in town and there were opportunities

It really was only later on that it all made sense that the others were the problem more (or at least as much) as him, and they probably knew if they had just arrested him, the others, with all those guns and who knows what else, probably had something pre-worked out.

And the rightwing media (which seemed to have started the day people first heard of Bill Clinton), played into the fear and paranoia of the Clinton haters
and then Oklahoma City.

All based on racial hatred, anti-government, anti-tax, same people that became the Ron Paul groupies and same absolutist mentality today.

Like a bad movie taken as real life.
All the types of crime in NY throughout the 70s was always explainable in my mind.

This type of paranoia leading to all these events,(like Okl.City somehow thinking by blowing up a building and killing all those kids gets revenge on people who died by their own hand, after killing federal agents just makes no logical sense.
I can't fathom it.

Which is why we need to get the guns out of the street.
I never feared riding the subways in NYC when crime at night was the worst. Now these mass killings and all, if they aren't the definition of terrorism, I don't know what is.

(It's the type of crimes when they arrest people who did this, they are not in any sense heroes,and the other people in the prisons are not ones to let these type criminals pass without comment).

IMHO.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:57 AM

93. Though I have not thought of all of that this way, it makes sense. I will think about it some more.

Also, it never made sense to me to think of Janet Reno as somekind of half-baked reactionary about what was going on at Waco.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:56 PM

56. They didn't have it coming. & FBI/ATF/LEO are not blameless. Without more specific

details and LOTS of them, I will apportion the blame/guilt to the power position in each scenario, which is the government. I have to admit that I don't know blame by how much, though, which would be different in each situation, depending upon how many people in each would have walked out of the arrest situation peaceably if given an appropriate chance and, yes, "appropriate" is the devil in those details.

That said, responsibility is primarily with the greater power position, the government, and that's responsibility to get it right anyway, even when people have evinced a willingness to die rather than ____________________ , hence the conundrum posed by what an appropriate response would be in each situation, but I suspect appropriateness has something to do with a more dynamic proportionality, a matter which the government in all of its power, one would assume, would have greater ability to identify than their opposition does.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:33 PM

60. Didn't the government have to give millions to the Weavers because the courts...

Found that the government was mostly to blame in the Ruby Ridge incident? And they didn't charge any of the people involved in Ruby Ridge.


The people at Waco were actually breaking laws, why are you being disingenuous by lumping them together?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:38 PM

61. I guess, re: Waco, Reno had never heard of a "siege"? Not to mention that DK went jogging each a.m.

a.m. I mean, if the Feds really wanted to arrest him and all.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)


Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #64)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:25 AM

90. Shooting a child in the back? Burning small children to death? Good treatment?

Are you joking?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:10 PM

66. What I want to know is why so many pro-gunners seem to be experts on Ruby Ridge.

I don't know that much about the incident, but it's a little weird that pro-gunners all have feel very strongly about it, and they all seem to repeat the same talking points. Why did Ruby Ridge become part of the standard pro-gun repertoire?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #66)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:28 PM

74. I know so much about it because when it first happened

 

I thought, good, racist asshole got what he deserved, but the more I learned, the more I became convinced that the govt. had really stepped over the line.
I watched the congressional hearings and watched Sen. Spector catch several ATF, FBI agents flat out lying, especially an Agent Byerle who admitted that he had lied about Randy being wanted for bank robberies.
Neither side had clean hands in this and because of that, 3 people died in that lonely spot in Idaho.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #66)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:41 AM

97. Ever Seen One Of The Threads About Shooting Down Jetliners?


Some of our Gungeoneers seem to have studied that subject way too much, as well. Some of them invariably spew too many technical details about it; they can't help themselves. Same thing as what our Ruby Ridge groupies do.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #97)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:56 PM

103. Why don't you post some links if you think it's important?

Look around; I'm sure they can be found right next to "The Protocols of The Elders of The NRA"...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:14 PM

68. Wow.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:51 PM

82. There are crazy individuals that can be violent but

there is a higher proportion of individuals that act out the violence that have spent time in law enforcement, athletic, and/or military environments.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:56 PM

83. Yep, our government is always right when it kills people

It only does it when necessary and justified!! Especially children. US authorities would never hurt children.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:50 AM

91. Racist teabaggers deserve exactly what they got.

It SHOULD be a warning to all the two toothed Bubbas who think they are going to take over OUR country. These people are medieval, and have NO place in modern society. We won, didn't they get the memo? Time to pack up and turn in the precious, Billy Bob.

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Response to Bodega Bandit (Reply #91)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 07:27 AM

95. You know Weaver lived and got $4 million, right?

I'm not sure the government should be killing unarmed women and then paying off their racist asshole widowers.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #95)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:48 PM

101. Woowee...I bet he wears only 1600 thread count sheets nowadays!

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Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #101)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:50 PM

102. Bwah

OK, that was fucking hilarious.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 01:11 PM

104. Thanks :)

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:54 AM

92. For those familiar with these incidents, the claim in the OP is silly (nt)

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:43 PM

100. Yahweh or the highway!

Call me callous, but I don't shed many tears over the loss of racist or religious nutbags.

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