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Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:41 AM

To our friends who claim they need guns to protect them from the Government

Taking up arms against the Government is NOT patriotism


It's called TREASON.


Have a nice day.

153 replies, 14410 views

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Reply To our friends who claim they need guns to protect them from the Government (Original post)
DainBramaged Jan 2013 OP
DetlefK Jan 2013 #1
Dash87 Jan 2013 #20
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #2
progressoid Jan 2013 #8
n2doc Jan 2013 #3
Shadowflash Jan 2013 #31
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #79
ck4829 Jan 2013 #4
backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #6
Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #5
SQUEE Jan 2013 #9
A Simple Game Jan 2013 #14
SQUEE Jan 2013 #30
plethoro Jan 2013 #35
frylock Jan 2013 #88
SQUEE Jan 2013 #106
frylock Jan 2013 #119
stevenleser Jan 2013 #132
SQUEE Jan 2013 #141
stevenleser Jan 2013 #143
SQUEE Jan 2013 #152
jeff47 Jan 2013 #15
SQUEE Jan 2013 #33
formercia Jan 2013 #46
jeff47 Jan 2013 #110
plethoro Jan 2013 #19
Javaman Jan 2013 #26
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #40
SQUEE Jan 2013 #50
billh58 Jan 2013 #44
SQUEE Jan 2013 #48
Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #103
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #109
SQUEE Jan 2013 #153
Recursion Jan 2013 #11
Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #101
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #16
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #27
sarisataka Jan 2013 #47
Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #105
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #112
Motown_Johnny Jan 2013 #123
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #126
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #28
Franker65 Jan 2013 #7
SomeGuyInEagan Jan 2013 #24
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #39
freshwest Jan 2013 #60
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #96
liberalcitizen1 Jan 2013 #10
Turborama Jan 2013 #12
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #13
jeff47 Jan 2013 #17
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #21
jeff47 Jan 2013 #107
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #113
jeff47 Jan 2013 #127
glowing Jan 2013 #23
jeff47 Jan 2013 #108
loudsue Jan 2013 #99
A Simple Game Jan 2013 #18
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #80
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #114
jimmil Jan 2013 #22
ciao_bella Jan 2013 #37
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #41
freshwest Jan 2013 #56
billh58 Jan 2013 #51
Kennah Jan 2013 #150
MsPithy Jan 2013 #25
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #29
lark Jan 2013 #36
oldhippie Jan 2013 #90
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #92
TalkingDog Jan 2013 #32
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #34
Bluzmann57 Jan 2013 #38
former9thward Jan 2013 #42
Blanks Jan 2013 #77
former9thward Jan 2013 #85
Blanks Jan 2013 #89
cer7711 Jan 2013 #43
RedstDem Jan 2013 #45
needthetruth Jan 2013 #49
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #54
SQUEE Jan 2013 #61
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #68
SQUEE Jan 2013 #104
billh58 Jan 2013 #71
ileus Jan 2013 #142
needthetruth Jan 2013 #63
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #66
VOX Jan 2013 #75
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #83
RedstDem Jan 2013 #144
haele Jan 2013 #64
immoderate Jan 2013 #67
billh58 Jan 2013 #69
ciao_bella Jan 2013 #72
needthetruth Jan 2013 #74
RobertEarl Jan 2013 #76
billh58 Jan 2013 #81
sarisataka Jan 2013 #82
ElboRuum Jan 2013 #145
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2013 #52
Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #53
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #55
SQUEE Jan 2013 #57
Dr. Strange Jan 2013 #65
Blue Palasky Jan 2013 #58
cartach Jan 2013 #59
VOX Jan 2013 #70
Kennah Jan 2013 #151
Fire Walk With Me Jan 2013 #62
guardian Jan 2013 #73
patrice Jan 2013 #87
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #78
billh58 Jan 2013 #91
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #115
billh58 Jan 2013 #120
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #133
billh58 Jan 2013 #135
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #137
billh58 Jan 2013 #138
Martin Eden Jan 2013 #84
One_Life_To_Give Jan 2013 #86
patrice Jan 2013 #93
patrice Jan 2013 #94
patrice Jan 2013 #95
patrice Jan 2013 #97
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #98
patrice Jan 2013 #100
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #117
patrice Jan 2013 #102
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #116
patrice Jan 2013 #122
patrice Jan 2013 #124
patrice Jan 2013 #125
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #111
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #129
patrice Jan 2013 #139
4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #118
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #130
4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #148
Mr. Blue Sky Jan 2013 #121
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #128
patriots Jan 2013 #131
OKNancy Jan 2013 #134
billh58 Jan 2013 #136
DainBramaged Jan 2013 #140
Timbuk3 Jan 2013 #146
samsingh Jan 2013 #147
DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #149

Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:47 AM

1. Once you shoot your first ATF- oder FBI-agent, you are gonna be an all-american hero.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:51 AM

20. Aim 'fer deh blue helmits. Dur hur hur.

Dese colors don't run.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:55 AM

2. I am yet to see that meme here or in real life. The closest I ever get is people concerned about

temporary WROL situations. Even that is a stretch. It is so damn irrational.

I have had someone suggest that since I am black, white gun owners would not say it around me.


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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:13 AM

8. I've seen it here.

Of course they are quickly PPRed.

As for that irrational WROL situation, just watch or listen to Alex Jones.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:05 AM

3. ...

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Response to n2doc (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:33 AM

31. Yup.

No matter how much the moron Clint Eastwood or Sly Stallone wannabe's think it would be 'red dawn', this is pretty much how it would work.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:27 PM

79. Precisely

This is why some of us screamed that this type of thing should be outlawed, but to know avail.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:05 AM

4. If they're so concerned about the government coming to get them, why not cut military funding a bit?

We should really tell them that if the government does decide to 'get' them, it won't be the paper pushers working in an office or the bus drivers leading the charge, it will be the government types who already have guns.

They are talking two sides out of their mouth and they need to be called out on it.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:07 AM

6. cut it * a bit*

we could cut military spending by 400 BILLION and still spend more than any other country in the world

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:07 AM

5. It is also just a variation on Suicide by Cop.

Our military can't be opposed in any meaningful way.


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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:26 AM

9. There are some people in Laos, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan

That will disagree with your statement.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:46 AM

14. Apples and Oranges obviously. In those countries it was us against an entire country.

If it happens here it will be you and your buddies against our police, military, and nine tenths of the population. I doubt the military will even need to get involved.

And no supply chain to be broken. There are already more drones here than overseas. They are probably watching you right now (don't look up).

If you don't think they know who is posting what on the internet, try thinking again.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:28 AM

30. my buddies.. giggle.

Odd how you think the military industrial complex is on our side.
Most of those I served with dispise the Left and that doesnt count the many that actually joined just for the training and experience and took it home with them to their EXTEREME RW groups. There are a bunch of veterans that have experience against a very good foe, and you don't turn in your experience when you ETS...

As for supply chain.. study up on your assymetrical warfare. and concepts of logistics... there are methods to break armies without engaing the tip of the spear..

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:38 AM

35. Yes, you are right. There are other things

 

that cannot be mentioned because of the internet. I know people that I served with could do a lot of damage. The military industrial complex will NOT be on our side, but I think in the end the military will be. It will be us and the military on one side and the MIC of the industrial complex and the police on the other side. And it is coming... Maybe this year with what is now brewing over guns.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:47 PM

88. you and your buddies that dispise [sic] the left are in a very vocal minority..

they in no way express the sentiment of the vast majority of those enlisted in the armed forces. so yeh, you and your racist cohorts may take a few victims, but that victory will be short lived.

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Response to frylock (Reply #88)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:02 PM

106. giggle..again

Not being a Roman, I have no cohorts, and as you don't know me or anything about me in anyway, you assume I am right wing or racist?
My Leftist predecessors were very adamant in the use of arms. Che, Mao, Ensslin and Giap.. not exactly going on the Right Wing Rushmore
I know how many combat soldiers feel about leftists, having taken quite a bit of heat for my beliefs, so tell me there frylock, how does the military feel about the Left?

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #106)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:45 PM

119. being that the military is a microcosm of society as a whole..

I would imagine there are wide ranging feelings towards the left, both positive and negative. how many black, asian, or latino members of the military do you suppose will side with the racists and rednecks when shit gets real?

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:59 PM

132. The main problem with this theory is that in those campaigns the US Still cared about most UN and

Geneva Conventions and most US Constitutional restrictions on warfare.

What you are talking about is taking arms up against a hypothetical future US government that has ceased obeying the rules and is obsessed with power, that is why you are taking up arms against them in the first place. A government beyond any laws or rules with the armaments of the US armed forces is not beatable.

Your AR-15s are no good against drones and the US Air Force firing/dropping munitions with chemical, biological and tactical nuclear weapons. You have no chance against army and marine units whose artillery and tanks are firing shells with sarin and other nerve and blood agents in their warheads.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #132)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:49 PM

141. wow, you really think

The government will open up the NBC toybox on American soil? really?



Really?
and if so you wonder why people would resist this form of Government? If W didn't pop open canned sunshine after 9-11 why would you believe that President Obama would allow the use of persistent nerve agents (which we no longer have *wink *wink) on the American people.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #141)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 08:25 PM

143. Thats the problem with your theory, its a catch 22.

No, I dont think it would ever happen, certainly not in my lifetime, or the lifetime of my children or my grandchildren.

But if this government ever went so corrupt that it required a violent uprising, yes, I think they would use NBC on anyone using violence.

The Soviet Union, an empire many here believe was the embodiment of evil, and those in control of it simply gave up power in the end rather than use its considerable arsenal to maintain power.

That is what would need to happen here. The very conditions that would lead you to want to take up arms would make it ineffective to do so.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #143)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:16 AM

152. on this we agree

For a LEGITIMATE uprising or insurrection, or whatever you call it to be necessary, the PTB would have gone far afield of the ideas we hold. That said, what you and I think is not on trial here, it is the other side, its desperation at becoming a dwindling demographic, and between the corporate state eroding the power of the electorate, and the loss of the reigns of power to a constant shifting to what they term communist social party, they may feel its time to get froggy. They can do alot of damage, physical and psychological to the fabric of our country. There in lays the other side of the catch 22 we as a nation to truly defeat them, and maintain ourselves as a great nation would have to resort to things that are anathema to our ideals... interesting times indeed.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:46 AM

15. They were not successful in opposing our military

They got their asses handed to them in every fight.

They were successful in opposing us. Because you don't win a war just with guns, and the neocons running those wars are fucking morons who think you only win a war with guns.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:36 AM

33. wow

LBJ and Clinton were Neocons..good to know.
Winning battles and losing wars is what we as Americans have become very good at. I have been there to do some as bubble gum chewing and name taking,.. and yet it solved nothing. Americans don't like seeing Americans die. This is why an insurgency here is so hard to predict, I pray we never see these idiots try the reset button. But I do not have the faith that you do in the benevolent omnipotence of the US war machine.
All you cheering on the MIC as your saviors and cheering at the thought of burning Bubbas and slaughtered families need to reexamine what you stand for. Right now the Gadsden Flag is a target, but just last year it was the Guy Fawkes mask, soon it could be your co-exist or equality bumper sticker.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:20 PM

46. I don't know about Neocon

but LBJ's wife owned a construction company that built most of the Bases in Viet Nam. Call him whatever you wand, but he definitely had a hidden agenda.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:21 PM

110. Today they're neocons. The same philosophy has existed for a long time under different names

This is why an insurgency here is so hard to predict

You predict it by looking for any analogs. The war on drugs is very similar to an insurgency. We've been cheerfully fighting that for 60 years.

Vietnam, Iraq and probably Afghanistan ended poorly because we have a limited apetite for "our boys" dying "over there". We have a much larger apetite for "our boys" dying if it's within the US.

But I do not have the faith that you do in the benevolent omnipotence of the US war machine.

Please take more than a nanosecond to think about what you read. I said you can't win a war with only guns. Why on Earth do you think that means I think the US war machine is wonderful?

There's two sides to fighting a war: the military and the diplomatic. Winning the military side doesn't win the war. You have to also win the diplomatic side. Meaning your opponents have to agree to stop fighting. This is what the neocons, and their antecedents, don't get - they think the military can win a war on its own, and so have led us into disastrous conflicts.

Or to sum up, the military can't do it all. How does that turn into some sort of military worship in your mind?

All you cheering on the MIC as your saviors and cheering at the thought of burning Bubbas and slaughtered families need to reexamine what you stand for.

Actually, you have absolutely no understanding of what I stand for. But I'm sure you feel great for attacking that strawman.

The "Bubbas" speak of resisting the government with violence. That will be completely unsuccessful. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled at this situation. I just recognize it for what it is.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:51 AM

19. Excellent!........nft

 

dddddd

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:16 AM

26. What are you trying to say? nt

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:59 AM

40. So you think you could do that here??

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:30 PM

50. Me? no plans at all to.

This is not my fight, I am gonna stay out of the meatgrinder this time.
But civil wars tend to be very UNcivil.. and there are no lines no rear areas and no safe places if those idiots actually go and try and kick this off.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:18 PM

44. Did Uncle Wayne

give you that talking point? Or did it come from your right-wing buddies in the Gungeon...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:25 PM

48. Nope, got it from Uncle Sam

I took notes doing his dirty work...So did many others..
To underestimate and dehumanize a foe is to beg for defeat.
And as for Right Wing... I share your mirth.
Not all on the Left are pacifists.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:53 PM

103. Because they defeated our military and overthrew our government?

Really?

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:18 PM

109. With the possible exception of Iraq, all of those were receiving material assistance from outside.

And much of the Iraqi stuff came from supply dumps left unsecured for way too long. I doubt the US military will leave its armories unguarded.

So, whose outside help you gonna look for?

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:50 PM

153. again I am not doing squat..

So asking if I am going to be seeking outside material assistance is a non starter. The material is all here, and as we have seen in numerous nations, the military often comes over in pieces and sections.. bringing their own shit with them.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:31 AM

11. Yeah, Iraq was a cakewalk (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:51 PM

101. The Iraqis had an army, and air force

and even if you are only talking about the insurgence after the government had been defeated, I stand by my statement.

There was never any chance of our military being defeated. This is what the gun nuts here think can happen. They believe that they will overthrow our government by defeating our military and then create one in their own image.


That is insane.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:46 AM

16. Unless 51% of the troops agree with the insurrection.

The mighty and irresistible military is only as strong as it's soldiers are loyal to command.

Jeeze, it's like nobody every read a history book.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:20 AM

27. Well any military who defy orders in the heat of battle run the

very real risk of simply being shot by their superiors, if it comes to that.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:23 PM

47. You don't really know

how the military works, do you?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:55 PM

105. Over restricting high capacity magazines and assault style weapons?


Really?


Point to a time in history when such a tiny thing caused the military to turn against their government.

Please, give it a shot.


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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #105)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:25 PM

112. It's more of this question: "might there ever come a time.."

Not "would it happen over current possible legislation."

Taking the long view, and using much of our own concerns about an increasingly powerful police state and loss of privacy and freedom in a corporatocracy, I ask, might we ever find ourselves having no other solution?

Should things ever get that bad, we can imagine that many troops would be similarly inclined.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #112)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:11 PM

123. No, this conversation has context.

We are talking about people who are going to take up arms against this nation because they think their 2nd amendment rights are being violated.

Some imagined future where things are so bad that even the military turns against the government is not within the context of this discussion.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #123)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:28 PM

126. I'll give you that, however I don't let freeper NRA turds speak for me.

I must give it to you that the context is about them, and not us, so I'll concede!

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:24 AM

28. These idiots believe the military will join them.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:12 AM

7. Still waiting for the government to come after me

Amazing that Americans don't have faith in the core functionality of the country. Fearing the government...it isn't exactly as bad as China or North Korea.

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:08 AM

24. Getting people to live in fear is $$$

There are some very, very persuasive fear mongers out there, with big money behind them. My long-held opinion is that a lot of this is pandering to fear in order to make a buck, either through ad revenues (like Fox News, Rush, etc.) or direct sales (guns, in this case).

Maybe I am oversimplifying it. But so many things seem to come back to money, power or sex.

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Response to SomeGuyInEagan (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:53 AM

39. Also, if people hate their government it lets business do as they wish....

...there was a time when police cracked down on workers.

Big business would like to return to those days.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:42 PM

60. Big bidness is reducing government to the size they can hire their own thugs to do it.

Privatization sets up a 'no man's land' where government is kept out of their libertarian free market paradises. No one can report violations or they lose their job.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:15 PM

96. Their dream is to link business to government so talking back to your boss is Treason.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)



Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:44 AM

13. To be fair, what does that say of the original revolutionists? Were they wrong to revolt?

I am serious and this is not a RW talking point, just an honest question.

Are things in America that much better now than then?

Are we headed in a better direction in terms of civil and economic rights?



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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:47 AM

17. If you win, you are a revolutionary patriot

if you lose, you're a terrorist traitor.

Are things in America that much better now than then?

Yes. You have to be willfully ignorant to declare otherwise.

Are we headed in a better direction in terms of civil and economic rights?

Yes. You have to be willfully ignorant to declare otherwise. Remember that whole "slavery" thing? Might be a tad better now on the civil and economic rights front.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:55 AM

21. You can just drop that "willfully ignorant shit" right now, thank you. To continue...

...

Better than 1760, 1860, sure, I'll agree we have made progress in practically every way.

Better now than in 1960 and 1970? In a few ways, yes. In economic terms, hell no.

In matters of privacy and income and wealth equity, we are sinking fast.



Now we don't have to agree on the details, but on DU we expect a bit more civility and maturity than to try that "willfully ignorant" shit, OK?

TIA.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:03 PM

107. So you asked the question knowing the answer was "no"?

You were asking if we're better off than just before the revolution. To ask the question means you have some doubts about that. To have some doubts that life is better today than in 1760 is rather crazy.

Why, exactly, do you expect people to bother creating a lengthy and thoughtful response to a question that you already know the answer to?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #107)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:28 PM

113. People are free to, and may do, disagree. In fact, the 1% are doing just fine!

"Life is better" is not the criteria.

And "we" is a very relative term.

It can easily be argued that the 99% are increasingly finding ourselves slaves of a quite different more modern sort.

Our diets suck, our resources are depleted, and to look at the trajectory of all of these matters, things are getting WORSE.

Back then, at least, things were getting better...

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #113)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:31 PM

127. Ok, let's compare that to 1760

Where the problem with our diets included regular starvation. Whereas our current dietary problems are over-abundance of food leading to obesity.

Resource depletion was also quite a large problem - all of the forests in the northeast were in the process of being cut down. And wood was even more important as a resource than oil is today.

Yes, the fact that wages are stagnant is bad. Being subsistence farmers is worse.

Today, some things are getting worse, and some things are getting better. You think there'd be much talk about the 99% if we still had to go through newspapers for wide-scale political discussion?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:05 AM

23. Maybe for some, but worldwide, there is more slavery

than ever before... There are entire countries that thrive on the sex slave industry... Even in this country.

And then there's the slavery of not having enough to live in society designed by the wealthy. I'm more concerned about their treachery and bought ear of our reps... That's much more dangerous to us a s a nation!

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Response to glowing (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:10 PM

108. Still a tiny fraction compared to 1760

The raw numbers are high, but so's the world's population. Percentage-wise it's much, much lower.

There's also the problem of coming up with accurate statistics. There was that somewhat recent incident where the UK went all out to find sex slaves and trafficked women, because some groups were claiming there were many thousands to millions in the UK thanks to decriminalized prostitution. The UK offered immigration amnesty and/or aid getting back to their home country. After tons of investigation, and lots of interviews they found....less than ten. I think it was something like 2.

So it gets a little tough to trust the numbers that get thrown about. One of the big reasons I support legalized prostitution is it would bring that job out of the shadows, making it much easier to find exploited women.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:45 PM

99. Slavery is coming back into vogue....it's just color-blind now.

It's all the workers who are being mistreated, spied on, drug tested, forced to do the labor of 6 people or get fired and go hungry. Working conditions are sinking back into the 'deplorable' state in a big hurry. Is it as bad as what the kidnapped Africans had to go through? Not by orders of magnitude, but we are all now competing with modern-day slaves in China and other countries. So if we're competing with slaves, who are our peers?

Modern-day slaves aren't fed by their masters...they're given money to go buy their own food....which at the "company store" is outrageously expensive, and is draining (sucking) the money out of the America I used to know. We pay 10 times more for our drugs than our corporations sell those same drugs for overseas. Even for those of us with health insurance, as we get older and parts wear out, we cannot afford to pay for the doctor bills that the health insurance companies won't pay for. And if your teeth start breaking, which they do as you get older, forget dental insurance. These days the BEST dental insurance pays UP TO $1,000 per year, and then you're on your own. One little crown on the bottom front tooth costs $1,200, so your dental insurance is used up on one tooth. Believe me, I know. I'm 63, and I work out, don't smoke, take vitamins, eat healthy food....but had a breast biopsy this year that cost $9,000 plus. Insurance didn't pay the first $5500. My husband is retired with the county, and we are covered under his insurance....a huge group policy....that doesn't pay worth a flip.

We exist to send our money to the corporations, so they can freely buy a shiny new politician.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:50 AM

18. We have the ability to vote and select our own government.

If we fail to exercise that right we can not blame the government we get.

We are obligated to our society to vote for the best candidate possible. I believe we are failing in our obligation.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:30 PM

80. Oh, they were certainly traitors

but they were traitors who won, so the history books deems them patriots.

Any person, or persons, who try that today won't survive the drone attack.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:35 PM

114. The winners write the histories.

And as for your closing question, we are pretty damned obviously heading in the wrong direction in terms of economic justice...and I think anyone who thinks that's ever going to change without bloodshed is living in a dream world. Not that I'm advocating violent attempts to break the hold on power that those who benefit from economic injustice have...just pointing out how unlikely it is to change by other methods.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:04 AM

22. What I don't get is this.

People always say "government" like it is some huge cloud somewhere. It is not a who but a what. The government is made up of people and those people have to make a living, provide for their families, send the kids off to school, everything any non-governmental person does. What makes these people so dangerous to everyone else? Who thinks that no one in government will stop and think about things before doing something totally against the welfare of the population? Government workers are not some mass zombie robot.

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Response to jimmil (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:52 AM

37. Thanks Jimmil - people like me make up the government

You're right, people talk about the "government" like it's some cloud somewhere, as you said in your post.

Who do you think makes up the “Federal Government” these nutcases are arming themselves against? People like me, my son, and the other 1800 people who work for the DOD at a Federal Center here in Michigan, and all the other Federal Employees at all the other Federal Agencies across the country. We are the government, average US citizens who have families and who go to work every day to support our families. All of us have to pass an EXTENSIVE security clearance background check to qualify to work for the Federal Government. We can’t have even the HINT of any criminal offenses or even BAD CREDIT for God’s sake to gain entrance to our jobs. Every 5 to 10 years we are re-checked. Plus, the majority of Federal Employees are retired military soldiers who fought for this country on foreign soil. But these paranoid people who think they need guns to defend themselves against the US Government actually believe that somehow, one day out of the blue, people like me, and these retired military soldiers, and all the other federal government workers, are going to morph into fascist tyrants who are going to take over the country on the orders of our President who is supposed to be at the helm of this apocalypse. Really? Just stop for a moment and let the absurdity of that twisted thinking sink in.

Thanks Jimmil for pointing out that "Government workers are not some mass zombie robot".

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Response to ciao_bella (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:08 PM

41. WELCOME TO DU

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Response to ciao_bella (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:39 PM

56. Thanks and welcome. I know that many good workers are unable to advocate publicly.

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Response to jimmil (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:33 PM

51. I thought that the use

of the term "government" was obvious. The NRA (and its blind followers including the right-wingers in the DU Gungeon) uses it as a euphemism for President Obama -- you know, that scary black Kenyan socialist Nazi guy that's going to come and get their guns.

The very same President Obama that's building the FEMA concentration camps, and has a huge fleet of black helicopters just waiting to confiscate all guns. After the guns are "grabbed" (Gungeon term) they will be given to the United Nations (blue helmets) for use against our very own citizens.

And that, boys and girls, is why Uncle Wayne wants everyone to be vigilante -- oops -- vigilant, and run out and buy two or three AR-15s so that you can help to support those patriotic CEOs of the gun manufacturing companies. The fact that they are also supplying our "government" with higher-powered, and much more sophisticated weaponry is of no real consequence, so just keep looking at the shiny AR-15 object and we at the NRA will always have your back.

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Response to jimmil (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:14 AM

150. Working for the state, a coworker once commented, "If the government knew ..."

... to which I responded, "Well, we know how screwed up this is, and we're part of the government."

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:14 AM

25. It's in Article III, section 3. If anyone is interested.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

The gun-fetishists seem to ignore this part of the Constitution. It's hard to see how using their guns against a "tyrannical" (according to them) government, would not be considered levying War.

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Response to MsPithy (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:24 AM

29. Their argument is that the government is not "legitimate"

because it does things they don't like, so making war on it isn't treason.

I know.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:40 AM

36. Red staters

don't make war, just go away, please! You don't like a democracy where people that don't look like you can get elected - take your marbles and go away. We wouldn't miss AL, MS, AR much at all. LA should go too, but NO is way too much fun for the christian taliban, so that one's a little troubling. lol

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:47 PM

90. Pretty much what the Founding fathers said .....

 

It all depends on whether you win or lose.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #90)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:55 PM

92. People who hate the United States and don't want to be a part of it need to go live in another

country and not ruin this one, since they obviously don't have the votes to legally change it into what they want (a christofascist theocracy).

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:34 AM

32. I agree with that

I also agree with this.

(flame away)

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:37 AM

34. Besides

The government would vaporize you in about 1/6 of a second if it had to. You don't stand much of a chance against an army.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:53 AM

38. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. Military is well funded

They have every weapon known to mankind most likely. So who's going to win that fight? My money's on the government.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:08 PM

42. You have a very static view of social movements.

The Libyan regime had all the military until it didn't. Same thing with Syria and Egypt. The Tzar in Russia had all the military until the Bolsheviks took over a few buildings in St. Petersburg. Then he didn't. Social movements and revolutions are very dynamic creatures and no one can predict how they will play out. I am not comparing our government with those other countries but if it ever did devolve to that type of oppression no one can predict what the military or police would or would not do.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:24 PM

77. Social movements may be dynamic creatures, but...

They don't have huge payrolls. The city, county and state cops (as well as the national guard) aren't going to follow a revolution unless they can make their house and car payments.

If the banks are payrolling the revolution maybe, but most people are two paychecks away from homelessness. They aren't going to switch sides if they lose everything to do it.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #77)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:34 PM

85. Your points are true but assume some normalcy exists.

Revolutions don't take place when there are good conditions. If the country devolved into economic chaos it is probable the government would become oppressive as one way of dealing with it. At that point a lot of people including government would be missing payroll and that is where the you know what hits the fan.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:47 PM

89. I'm aware.

However, we are a good bit away from the kind of conditions where the law enforcement in even a single city would switch over to the side of the revolutionaries.

It certainly isn't going to happen nationwide, and if the law enforcement did it in one community; they'd go up against the national guard first.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but from where we are now; it would take a while.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:18 PM

43. A Friendly Edit

I take your point--and very much like the way you made it!--but would insert something like the following, so that the sentence reads in full:

Taking up arms against a constitutionally-limited, democratic republic is not patriotism. It's called treason.

This should quiet, in advance (ah, if only, eh?) all the rabid gun-nutters who screech about the moral obligation and duty we all have to oppose tyrannical, authoritarian jack-booted government. (Such screechers themselves ofttimes fond admirers/apologists/a working vanguard for neo-fascist/Confederate causes.)

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:19 PM

45. "need guns to protect them from the Government"

that only applies to some of the 2nd amendments original intent WAY back when. Since the gubmint has crap so powerful now, that obviously is obsolete. anyone making that argument now aint thinking clearly (or clearly aint thinking..lol). but part of its original intent is also self defense, so it is complicated. that means you don't need guns like its a war zone, but the people have the right to own a gun for self defense.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:29 PM

49. Let me shed some light on this....

 

This is my first post so please be nice I am a Republican. I am a gun owner.

I get so tired of seeing Democrats and Republicans do nothing but call each other names and talk about how their point of view is the only one.

As a Republican posting on a Democratic forum, I would like to try to explain why we gun owners are up in arms (pardon the pun). It's not that we feel the "government" is going to come knocking on our door tomorrow and we're going to have to "protect" ourselves. It's that we feel that if we allow even the slightest infringement on our 2nd amendment rights, then we will just be opening the door for further restrictions down the road. Governments don't fall in one fell swoop, it's something that happens slowly, over time. It's like the whole frog analogy: If you put a frog in boiling water it will try to jump out. If you put the frog in water and slowly turn up the heat, it will boil to death.

Putting your foot down now prevents anyone from getting their "foot in the door" for more restrictions down the road.

At least that is my point of view.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:37 PM

54. How many guns do you need? Why do you need assault-type weapons or automatics and massacre magazines

Your paranoia is unfounded.

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:44 PM

61. Massacre mag?

Rhetoric that shows you have no wish to engage in a honest discourse.. I prefer Constructive Criticism clip..

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:56 PM

68. Go polish your guns

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #68)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:54 PM

104. I have nothing shiny..

so I guess this means you really are just operating on the emotional and merely want to be pandered to, real solutions are unimportant as long as we FEEL like something was done..
yup and that is why nothing will get done and people will still die.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:01 PM

71. Honest discourse?

From a Gungeoneer? Are you serious?...

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:06 PM

142. Some call them killer clips...

or my favorite murder mags.

I think it's funny when people say goofy assed shit to back up their POV.

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:45 PM

63. It's better to have and not need then to need and not have...

 

It seems that a lot of gun control proponents have a misconception about gun owners. Since most of the people I know own guns, I feel safe with the following generalization:

Gun owners aren't looking to shoot someone. We don't walk around carrying assault rifles hoping someone will break a law so we can play hero. Gun owners hope they NEVER have to use it. This is why a lot of gun owners get training and carry permits. This is why a lot of gun owners lock up their weapons. They want to make sure nothing "accidental" happens but it's still there in case of an emergency.

I don't think I'm paranoid. I think I'm prepared. I have insurance in case I get into a car accident or my health goes bad. What insurance do I have if my life is being threatened? Yes, we have police, but if someone wants to do me harm, they will do so immediately and not wait the 10-15 minutes for the police to show up.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:53 PM

66. If you are concerned about Government control

Why is it OK for you to deny a woman their right to choose, the rights of Gay's to marry, poke your nose into America's bedrooms, into the schools, deny health care to the poor and on and on.


Don't come here preaching about your loss of fucking guns and gun rights till you get out of AMERICA'S business.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:17 PM

75. "We don't walk around carrying assault rifles"...LIKE HELL YOU DON'T!

One of your Oregonian brother-in-arms, Warren Drouin, and his buddies do in fact "walk around carrying assault rifles" to make a sledgehammer point, and it's a very sad act. Drouin is borderline literate, totally obsessed with weapons, is likely disturbed, having posted countless videos on YouTube documenting his near-incoherent rants and interactions with various law-enforcement agencies. He invariably refuses to give his full name to any peace officer, as if he's somehow not yet on their radar.

It's fringe guys like this -- and they are legion -- who, with their intractable zealotry and aggressive behaviors, will put an end to the 2nd Amendment faster than any pencil-pushing liberal.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-29629-guy_toting_an_ar_15_in_southeast_pdx_does_this_all_the_time.html
1/10/2013
Guy Toting an AR-15 in Southeast PDX Does This All The Time

One of the two men stopped by Portland police yesterday carrying assault weapons does this all the time, all over the state.

Medford resident Warren R. Drouin, 22, keeps a YouTube channel called Markedguardian, festooned with the Libertarian "Don't Tread on Me" snake and hosting videos of Drouin and other friends carrying Bushmasters and other weapons in Medford, Talent, Albany, Grants Pass and Ashland.

In every case, he brings in 911 calls from concerned passersby.

And less than a month in time (and seven miles in distance) away from the mass shooting at Clackamas Town Center, he got his fair share in Portland.

"Officers explained to the men that they would likely continue to generate 9-1-1 calls from an alarmed public, which would require a police response, but neither man seemed interested in these concerns," Portland police spokesman Sgt. Pete Simpson wrote in a press release.

<snip>

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Response to VOX (Reply #75)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:32 PM

83. MR. NRA Parrot is gone

This thread is sugar to their fly

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 08:47 PM

144. Please excuse the histronics

I'm liberal and I strongly support the right to own firearms.
I'm in no mood to give any more rights away, I want the ones that have been taken in the past back!!

I will admit there are changes to current law that can help keep guns out of the wrong hands, and i support common sense regulations, as long they keep the right to own in the hands of the people.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:47 PM

64. The problem with gun rights are the gun fetishists.

Most gun owners I am aquainted with - even some of the die-hard "I need my gun for self-protection" types - are not against reasonable restrictions and background checks.
The problem reasonable gun owners have is with the paranoid freaks hyped up on hate who say they'll shoot anyone who looks sideways at them when they go about their "business", whether lawful or unlawful, whether responsible or not.
Unfortunatly, the fairly sane ones get caught up with the paranoids - and don't seem to see the difference between them, or are willing to "protect the rights" of the paranoid types because somehow, they think that their collection of sport guns and responsible pleasure-seeking activities at the range is the same as the guy (or gal) who has an arsenal in the basement and is looking forward to the end of civilization where they can emerge the last great hope for the future of mankind.

Many of those paranoid types are heavily involved in drugs or in exclusionary sects that believe everyone else is deviant or going to hell, so they have no problems taking away the rights of or simply killing you or any member of your family who don't fit their views of a "right thinking person". These are the people that need to have the foot put down on them, because if you allow them power, they will happily destroy your world and replace it with theirs - with all sorts of restrictions for those who don't fall in lockstep with their world-view, instead of a few common sense restrictions that protect the majority that are simply a minor inconvenience to other sane people.
The fetishists don't have any sense of justice or equal rights, only the law as they see it. No discussions. No consideration for any situation. Their world is black and white.

Seperate yourself from them, or you will find yourself going off the cliff with the crazies - you know, the people who really do need to be on a mental health watch list, even though from casual observation, they look and act the same as the average American gun owner.

Haele

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:54 PM

67. Welcome to DU! That's the "slippery slope" argument.

Frogs hate that argument!

It seems to state, if you allow reasonable restriction, you will then not be able to resist unreasonable restrictions. I submit that remains to be seen. What's next, "gateway drugs?"

--imm

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:56 PM

69. And you just parroted

most of the NRA talking points verbatim. Do you really believe that because you are a self-proclaimed Republican that you have the God-given duty to come and preach to we Democratic heathens?

The right-wing, Republican, Koch Brothers-supported NRA has pushed through obscene gun legislation that allows almost anyone in this country to get their hands on any type of lethal weapon they want -- no questions asked. The NRA pours millions of gun manufacturer dollars into scare tactic messaging (like the one you bring us) in order to trick the American people into believing that the 2nd Amendment is under attack by us filthy old Democratic Liberals.

Here's the deal Mr. Republican: no one wants to take your fucking gun away! The majority of the American people are sick and tired of 2,500 American gun deaths every fucking month in this country, and your whining about "even the slightest infringement on our 2nd Amendment rights" is just too fucking bad. You people had your chance to compromise, and stick with sensible gun laws in this country. But no, you had to help the fucking Neoconservative Rifle Association pass laws which allow vigilantes to roam our streets looking to "stand their ground."

Thanks for the insight, but like the rest of your gun cult you are afraid that the American people are finally waking up to the lies and deception of the NRA and their bought and paid for politicians. That time is coming to an end, and the NRA is becoming insignificant. Like your politics, your NRA "gunz for everyone" policy is on the losing side of this tide of public opinion.

Deal with it.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:09 PM

72. Reply for needthetruth

In your post you said "It's not that we feel the government is going to knocking on our door....."

On CNN the other night (Piers Morgan was interviewing), Mr. Ben Shapiro (of breitbart.com) said the following:

When asked why anyone needed to own an assault rifle and high capacity magazine clips Shapiro said, "for the prospective possibility of resistance to tyranny".

"Where do you expect the tyranny to come from?" asked Morgan.

"It could come from the United States," came Shapiro's answer.

"Do you understand how absurd you sound?" asked Morgan.

So, needthetruth, perhaps you personally don't feel the need to arm yourself against the US government, People like Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro, and their ilk are claiming that they do and they are justifying the need for assault rifles on this belief.


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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)


Response to needthetruth (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:20 PM

76. Lets put it this way, pubbie

Democrats care more about innocent children getting gunned down that we do about some gun lover having more guns.

When you can see past the end of your smoking barrel of your trusted six-shooter you may begin to understand what fucking pisses us off about your Guns-first mindset that causes the rest of the world so much grief.

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:30 PM

81. Let me shed some light

on a scurrying cockroach. PPRed with the comment: whining, troll - signed up just for gun talk

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:31 PM

82. My Father in law is Republican

and I forgive him, so I will forgive you

Not to discourage you, but those of us who are pro-gun Dems have tried explaining ad nauseum and get shouted down as RW trolls and NRA shills. There is a group that advocates doctrinal purity on the subject, to the point of ignoring portions of the Dem platform they do not agree with. OTH there are those who accept individual 2A rights and are liberals.

Take a look around at some of the other topics; guns are just too polarizing. Maybe we can convince you on some other subjects
For more discussion you could go to Gun Control & RKBA (Group) http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172
not that it is less contentious but there is more discussion on the subject.

**join us, join us **

Edit: oh well, buh bye

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Response to needthetruth (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:29 PM

145. OK. Fair enough.

Just so you know, you are guilty of a "slippery slope" fallacy, which is a rhetorical fallacy that erroneously implies that one thing will inevitably lead to a worse thing, which will in turn lead to an even worse thing. The reason why it is a rhetorical fallacy is that it presumes that any position, no matter how rational a position at first, will inevitably give way to further less rational positions and, given enough time, to completely irrational positions.

The argument presumes that the ultimate goal of either the more restrictive position or the government is to ban all firearms, perhaps not now, but after a series of systematically more restrictive positions. I suppose for some that it's fun to believe this because it is so B-movie dystopian, showing precisely no faith in the human ability to reason or to take a position that is both in the interest of safety of the general populace, but preserving of the utility and purpose of the 2nd Amendment, even in its rather broad modern interpretation. It's very conspiratorial and ascribes to otherwise intelligent and rational people the worst image of the holder's worst fears, which is not a rational position to take, but it does seem to be quite plausible to some. It's very reality TV, presuming the worst motivations of one's opponent, but far from likely.

But let's just operate with what we've got here so far. The reason you've given here to the pro-gun position is one of a slippery slope, where reasonable restrictions on gun ownership and access will lead to further encroachment. Taken to a logical extreme, this amounts to a slide into a complete ban. At least, that is the position you're giving here. However, if you look at the track record of other Amendments which have had restrictions of common sense placed upon them, that not only is the argument rhetorically fallacious, but the motivation for that argument is nonsensical.

The First Amendment is a prime example of how reasonable restriction and boundaries on what is and isn't protected by the Constitution, both in letter and spirit, does not lead inexorably toward that scary slippery slope.

Many laws and decisions have been made on what constitutes free speech as protected by the Constitution to elucidate forms of speech are not Constitutionally protected. This did not lead to a slippery slope into widespread censorship or governmental oppression, even though by your position on the second, it could be very well argued that not only it probably should have but that it was inevitable that it would. Libelous or slanderous speech is not protected, but speaking the truth about someone is. But one example of many ways in which the First Amendment is regulated without disabling its primary utility in any oppressive way.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:33 PM

52. You mean this government?



What right-thinking person could possibly be threatened by our government?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #52)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:37 PM

53. Those kids were committing treason!

Treason!

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:38 PM

55. they had guns?

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:41 PM

57. Nope,

But isn't it amazing how different the PTB responded to tea baggers vs OWS?

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:48 PM

65. Maybe.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."


But those kids are clearly adhering to our enemies, dammit! I count at least ten adherers!

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:42 PM

58. Sorry, but Jefferson thought a revolution may be necessary every 2 decades

 

I don't think he figured a nice talk would achieve that

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:42 PM

59. That's "Gov'ment".

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Response to cartach (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:59 PM

70. Or the rural variant, "gum'mint."

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Response to VOX (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:21 AM

151. Shit! I thought it was guh'mint!

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:45 PM

62. Oddly, the government is engaging in treason against the American people and Democracy itself.

 

-Citizens United = unlimited donations and campaign spending by corporations and rich businessmen. $2 billion spent upon this election cycle. Mussolini's definition of Fascism says it should be called corporatism, because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
-No wall street regulation or punishment, same with the banks
-A multiple hundred-fold disparity in income between CEOs and workers, which remains unchanged even a year after OWS
-Drones used for summary execution of foreigners and US citizens abroad suspected of terrorism or terrorist ties
-Hundreds of children killed by these drones in more than five countries
-The NDAA signed again for another year, allowing indefinite detention of US citizens without trial or representation
-The Bush-era FISA warrantless wireless wiretapping bill was just signed into five more years of activity.
-The TPP is a secretive corporate alliance creating international law.
-The ALEC is a secretive national corporate alliance creating US law, such as "stand your ground". (Mussolini: Fascism/Corporatism)
-7400+ Occupy members bloodied and arrested for peacefully protesting the above with nary a whisper from the White House. Silence is consent.
-Glass-Steagall remains removed, and the banks remain unregulated. Reinstate it now.
-There are 64 drone bases being built within the US as you read this. Did you vote for this? No. No citizen did.
-Drones will be used by increasingly militarized law enforcement, who are now tentacles of the illegal DHS. See Los Angeles iWatch and Special Order 11. All your information are belong to us.
-The DHS have membership who are blatantly anti-Occupy (Peter King) and have lied about spying upon Occupy from the beginning. "Trust your mechanic..."
-The FBI have been raiding Occupy activists' apartments for "literature", creating terrorists by offering bomb-making materiel to Americans, and spying upon Americans in general.
-Yes, militarized police and sheriffs. Have you seen the armored vehicles and weaponry being handed out by DHS, much less the hundreds of millions of hollow point munitions purchased by DHS (who will not discuss it)?
-Word of microphones being installed on buses to record citizen conversation. "Americans as terrorists" is making big money to arms and war tech dealers who are only interested in creating a new market...inside the US.
-Obama just signed life-long protection from protesters for himself and W Bush, via permanent Secret Service protection. HR347 makes it a Federal crime to protest where there are secret service present. He's protected a war criminal who desperately requires protesting! Life long protesting!
-The US government have known about "robosigning", the illegal foreclosure mill used by big banks, for over two years and have done nothing as citizens have their homes stolen. Yes, wall street are among the buyers at the quarterly bulk sales.
-Amber Lyon found and revealed that CNN take money from the Bahrain government to report that "everything is okay" while it IS NOT. Where is the government oversight upon this and truth-telling in mainstream media?
-Clarence Thomas was a lawyer for Monsanto, yet he will not recuse himself from Monsanto cases brought before him. There is now a Monsanto person in the FDA. WTF.
-Goldman Sachs. Enough said. Perhaps not. Did you know GS execs are in power in Greece, Italy, and other countries that are being savaged by "austerity", which is nothing more than socialized debt and theft? And power grabs?
-The multinational Trans-Canada Keystone XL pipeline and the horrifically toxic Tar Sands development. Stealing the environment and people's land with a nod from government.
-Private, for-profit prisons (taxpayer-funded) advertising a 90% occupancy rate. Thank you "war on drugs", with some 46% of inmates incarcerated on drug-related offences. Research the prison-industrial complex and those profiting (don't overlook Wells Fargo's massive investment in one of these companies).
-The military industrial complex and the now-endless war budget (continues on US soil under the concept of "Americans are terrorists").
-The TSA, who have been testing out on buses. Don't need them everywhere, please!
-There is more but I have other things to do this morning. Do your own research. Of course you haven't heard about most of these things on mainstream media. They're owned by six corporations (Romney/Bain are involved in Clear Channel, yes?) who don't want certain truths made known.

The first and fourth Amendments are dead and gone. More are on their way out. This is increasingly a militarized, mechanized police state. Wake up and smell the Trend. Don't believe any of this? Google each item. And Google the definition of Democracy. It means "The will / voice of The People." Where's my Democracy? Where's your outrage?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:11 PM

73. well said! n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:42 PM

87. All true, with a footnote: the American people, on the sugar tit of capitalism, have ENABLED every

bit of it, every step of the way in exchange for each, in a long sequence of, opiate(s) of "our" "own" "choice".

The reason I feel it is necessary to mention this is to suggest that the immense inertia working against changing direction physically constitutes a force over which most people will likely disavow any affect other than violence. This is because of our own history which has resulted, on an average, in no means of thinking otherwise and violence is its own very real form of oppression mitigating most effectively against intended outcomes.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:25 PM

78. Also, since we ALREADY live in a police state

having VOLUNTARILY surrendered all of our rights except for those covered under the 2nd and 3rd Amendment, what is the point?

When the government decides that some particular person requires "taking out", all the guns in the world won't help you. Hellfire missiles, fired by some lackey at CIA HQ will reduce them to an organic cloud of mist.

How are your hundreds of a assault rifles going to stop a drone attack?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #78)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:52 PM

91. Spoken like a true

Gungeoneer. I have lived and worked in true "police states," and the USA is not even close. Instead of arming yourself with a gun, try some objectivity and participation in the political process.

You are free to run for office. You are free to voice your opinions far and wide, and loud and clear. You are free to criticize your evil old government in public and private venues alike. You are free to vote and campaign for the candidate of your choice.

I won't go on with the many freedoms that living in the USA allow us to enjoy which real police states do not permit, but I believe that you get the picture. Are we a perfect Democracy? No, and we never have been since our inception, but our young nation is still growing and improving. Warts and all, we're getting there.

As for your statement that we have "VOLUNTARILY surrendered all of our rights except for those covered under the 2nd and 3rd Amendment," that is pure bullshit and you know it. It is also a feeble argument in support of the 2nd Amendment as the NRA would wish it to be. The first part of the sentence states, "a well regulated militia," and NOT "a well armed militia."

Contrary to the NRA and Gungeon propaganda, Democrats are not coming for your guns. We are going to make you responsible for them, and more strictly regulate where, when, and how you can use them. The 2nd Amendment requires that we regulate your guns for the common good.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #91)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:43 PM

115. The difference between what you view

as a "true" police state and the U.S. is simply a matter of degree.

That will come with time.

Let me address some of the "freedoms" of which you speak:

You are free to run for office.

And if you have the millions of dollars that it takes to get elected on a Federal level, you might actually get into office. You can, of course, run at the state level, but since as it is the Bill of Rights that has been voided, and since the states are cooperating with the legal fictions, what would be the point?

You are free to voice your opinions far and wide, and loud and clear. You are free to criticize your evil old government in public and private venues alike.

Unless you try to actually do it in an effective manner that gets people's attention, in which case you will find yourself labeled a terrorist, beaten, pepper-sprayed, and incarcerated (See the Occupy Movement for examples).

You are free to vote and campaign for the candidate of your choice.

You are free to choose between the two lackeys who have already been bought and paid for by the corporate interests that run the country.

As to my arguments being "bullshit", did someone revoke the Patriot Act while I wasn't looking? Or was there an armed insurrection I somehow missed?

If the act is still the law and we haven't had a rebellion, then yes, we VOLUNTARILY surrendered our freedoms in exchange for... something, I have no clue what it is.

Contrary to the NRA and Gungeon propaganda, Democrats are not coming for your guns.

Where did I ever say they were? I explicitly stated that the only rights that have NOT been violated were the 2nd and 3rd Amendment. The point I was making is that the government became a police state while letting people keep all the guns they could eat. Gun are ZERO threat to the government, so there is no compelling reason for them to be seized.

Also, what the Hell does marijuana consumption have to do with this discussion? For the record, while I do not object to marijuana use, I have never used it, nor any other illicit drug in my entire life.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #115)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:59 PM

120. I have absolutely

no idea where your "marijuana consumption" comment comes from as I certainly didn't bring it up. The rest of your rant is just a repeat of the post that I responded to, so there's no need for me to repeat myself.

I'm sorry that you are so unhappy with the horrible conditions under which you are forced to live. I wish that I could do or say something that would cheer you up, but I am most likely not the right person for that task.

Be well, and live long and prosper...

On edit: You are exactly the kind of person that I want to see owning an AR-15 (or ANY gun) in my neighborhood.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #120)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 05:42 PM

133. You brought it up

Gungeon propaganda

Having never seen the word before, I looked it up.

gungeon definition


n.
a potent type of marijuana from Africa or Jamaica; a cigarette made of this marijuana. : Is this gungeon really from Africa?


So, you might understand my puzzlement over the word.

I am unhappy over what this country has turned into and how people allowed fear to be used as a far more effective weapon against them than any firearm ever made, military or civilian.

As much as I would like to see meaningful, sensible gun regulation (on par with Switzerland would be nice, I certainly felt quite safe when I lived there). I don't see it happening. Groups like the NRA are whipping up hysteria (at the behest of the arms manufacturers), and mixing in a nice bit of racism and conspiracy-mongering which is going to result in people getting killed.

If I thought for a moment that an AR-15, or some other weapon would actually make me safe from government overreach, then I would have one.

None the less, thanks for the kind wishes. I hope things go well for you too.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #133)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:03 PM

135. LOL!

"Gungeon" is slang for the RKBA guns group on DU -- a takeoff on Dungeon.

Take care...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #135)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:11 PM

137. Ah, now that makes sense

Though how I was seen as espousing "pro-gun" talking points now escapes me. I am VERY pro gun control.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #137)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:18 PM

138. Sorry about the confusion

and I apologize for the misunderstanding...

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:33 PM

84. Those yahoos can go from SUPPORT OUR TROOPS to SHOOT OUR TROOPS in the blink of an eye

The nuts arming themselves with assault weapons for armed conflict with our own government are the most likely segement of our population to actually support a government takeover by the kind of tyrant the Founding Fathers most feared.

Just think of all the idiots who want to secede because they don't like the outcome of the last election; who nod their dittoheads at everything that spews from Rush Limbaugh's mouth; and who believed the lunatic crap featured on Fox News by Glenn Beck.

Those morans are the American equivalent of the Brown Shirts ready to burn down the Reichstag at the behest of a charismatic rightwing demagogue wrapping himself in the flag and thumping the bible on the way to siezing power.

We need our government to protect us from fools with assault weapons, not the other way around!!!

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:40 PM

86. "Our attachment to no nation upon earth should supplant our attachment to liberty."

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."


All three from taken from Thomas Jefferson
http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-liberty

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #86)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 01:57 PM

93. All of which add up to "Better dead than __________" but if freedom means anything at all, wouldn't

that "Better dead than ________________" be a QUESTION each person asks and decides for one's self, rather than the dictate of masses who idolize one degree or another of abstracted absolutes all of the way up to the ultimate violence, instead of valuing and calling upon others to value the creative possibilities in each and every breath.

In that idolatry, isn't it possible that even those who think they are pursuing some purity to find, instead, that it recedes further and further into chaos. And even if there are some who do manage to lay some claim to whatever "purity" they intend, if that is a Right, AND NOT A PRIVILEGE, why does it exceed the claims of those who don't.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #86)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:00 PM

94. One life to give is fine as long as you make it your own & don't coerce others into the very thing

that you say you oppose, but end up supporting instead through that coercion.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #86)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:09 PM

95. You know, don't you, that Thomas Jefferson was a VERY conflicted guy. nt

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:23 PM

97. If Freedom isn't free, you* are not the ONE to decide the terms of its consequences for anyone

but yourself. That's your right and the reason it is your right is because it is everyone's right and if those decisions about consequences are not everyone's right then they are no one's right and making those "choices" about consequences for others thus becomes a privilege; a privilege, not earned, but obtained and enforced instead by power of unlimited and unregulated weaponry in this case.

Government is the only means/processes by which (imperfectly or not) everyone's rights are identified and defended. Any other force is exclusionary and, thus, more about PRIVILEGE, the privilege of violence in the case of unlimited and unregulated gun-ownership, not rights.

*rhetorical "you", of course.

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Response to patrice (Reply #97)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:33 PM

98. I thought the OP was plain and simple, why muck it up?

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #98)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:49 PM

100. Perhaps it doesn't matter to you that it appears our military, or police, could get involved in

something that might be very uncomfortable for them. What do you imagine the consequences of treason are? . . . especially with groups of people volunteering to kill others for the sake of gun-ownership.

Or do you just get to throw that kind of language around, "treason" and a likely corelate "sedition", without being concerned about its implications to others? . . . speaking of mucking things up, btw.

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Response to patrice (Reply #100)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:44 PM

117. See my previous answer

have a nice life......

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #98)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:52 PM

102. I thought OP is flamebait. Can't take the heat? Quit mucking around in the kitchen.

On edit: my remark about patriotism was uncalled for. I was just insulted by "muck it up" and then the smilie with a flag; it seemed manipulative.

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Response to patrice (Reply #102)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:43 PM

116. Wow

simply wow.

Maybe this isn't the thread you want to be 'mucking around' in?

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #116)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:10 PM

122. What does that mean? Do you have privileges I don't know about? nt

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #116)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:20 PM

124. Not "the thread" that I "want to be 'mucking around' in" - Is that somekind of threat? Will

I be censored or something?

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #116)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:22 PM

125. Perhaps you should tell us all what your privileges are here. nt

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:21 PM

111. Dude you won't believe this...

But, I found out in another thread that a gun won't protect your property if you aren't on your property. So, the government in theory could just waltz right in and do whatever. Which is totally against what the gun nuts say, so now I don't know what to believe.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #111)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:35 PM

129. Great point, they don't get it, don't bother trying to explain

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #129)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:23 PM

139. explain? But then that wouldn't be "plain and simple" would it? Have your read this yet?

Take Armed Insurrection off of the Table - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-melton/second-amendment_b_2469688.html

...............................

Still waiting to hear about your consequences for me for "mucking" with YOUR thread.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 03:44 PM

118. A Good Starting Point

would be to look at the Bonus protest. A War Veteran vs Veteran fight that lead to shot fired and a large portion of Americans having their 1st Amendment rights trampled by the Government. Some note worthy names in the lead as well. MacArthur, Patton, and Eisenhower.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #118)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:37 PM

130. Yayayayayayayaya of course you folks are going to spew all kinds of examples that matters

to YOU.


Please, your NRA talking points are invalid here, we won't decide the laws, but we're gonna laugh our asses off as you cry when your 'right' is finally limited.


Goodbye.

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #130)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:53 PM

148. Wow

I guess giving examples to a debate is a call for insults. Nice exchange of ideas. You also assume from the Internet that you know who I am and I have a certain agenda. I own zero that is zero guns. My example was to give some background to some of the earlier posts that were debating which side the military would come down on. Since day one on this site I have always advocated for everyones rights. Ones I like others I do not but deciding what your America should look like for you is something I am not a big fan of. On another post I also stated that most of those who say they own guns to stop tyranny are fooling themselves. They will get rolled up by the pros in a minute. Then there dream will have come true. Someone will pry their gun from their cold dead hands.


No NRA talking points here. Never belonged. Thanks for the warm welcome to a free flowing exchange of information.

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:08 PM

121. Battle of Athens - would you call this treason?

True story...

The Battle of Athens (sometimes called the McMinn County War) was a rebellion led by citizens in Athens and Etowah, Tennessee, United States, against the local government in August 1946. The citizens, including some World War II veterans, accused the local officials of political corruption and voter intimidation. The event is sometimes cited by firearms ownership advocates as an example of the value of the Second Amendment in combating tyranny.


Citizens of McMinn County had long been concerned about political corruption and possible election fraud. The U.S. Department of Justice had investigated allegations of electoral fraud in 1940, 1942, and 1944, but had not taken action. The wealthy Cantrell family essentially ruled the county. Paul Cantrell was elected sheriff in the 1936, 1938, and 1940 elections, and was elected to the state senate in 1942 and 1944, while his former deputy, Pat Mansfield, was elected sheriff. A state law enacted in 1941 had reduced local political opposition by reducing the number of voting precincts from 23 to 12 and reducing the number of justices of the peace from fourteen to seven (including four "Cantrell men"). The sheriff and his deputies worked under a fee system whereby they received money for every person they booked, incarcerated, and released; the more arrests, the more money they made. Buses passing through the county were often pulled over and the passengers were randomly ticketed for drunkenness, whether guilty or not.

In the August 1946 election, Paul Cantrell was once again a candidate for sheriff, while Pat Mansfield sought the state senate seat. After World War II ended, some 3,000 military veterans (constituting about 10 percent of the county population) had returned to McMinn County. Some of the returning veterans resolved to challenge Cantrell's political control by fielding their own nonpartisan candidates and working for a fraud-free election. They called themselves the GI Non-Partisan League. Veteran Bill White described the veterans' motivation:

There were several beer joints and honky-tonks around Athens; we were pretty wild; we started having trouble with the law enforcement at that time because they started making a habit of picking up GIs and fining them heavily for most anything—they were kind of making a racket out of it. After long hard years of service—most of us were hard-core veterans of World War II—we were used to drinking our liquor and our beer without being molested. When these things happened, the GIs got madder—the more GIs they arrested, the more they beat up, the madder we got ...
Combat veteran Knox Henry stood as candidate for sheriff in opposition to Cantrell. In advertisements and speeches, the GI candidates promised an honest ballot count and reform of county government. At a rally, a GI speaker said,

The principles that we fought for in this past war do not exist in McMinn County. We fought for democracy because we believe in democracy but not the form we live under in this county.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)





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Response to Mr. Blue Sky (Reply #121)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:34 PM

128. Nice of you to stop by

whose rights are you limiting today, women? Hispanics? Blacks? Muslims?

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 04:52 PM

131. Thomas Jefferson

 

The beauty of the second ammendment is that it will not be needed untill they try to take it - Thomas Jefferson

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Response to patriots (Reply #131)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 05:48 PM

134. debunked - he never said that

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Response to OKNancy (Reply #134)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:04 PM

136. But that's what the NRA

told him to say...

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Response to patriots (Reply #131)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:28 PM

140. Another one sprouts in my thread, but that's ok, weeding time....

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:32 PM

146. I'm glad I'm not one of "them"

I'm one of them who claims that the second amendment protects my right to help DEFEND my government, if it's ever needed.

You're welcome, and have a nice day.

(Note regarding "them"; demonization of 'the other' is a RW extremist tactic.)

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:41 PM

147. kick

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Response to DainBramaged (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:56 PM

149. Why do not these "patriots" show their true colors

Behind this "fear of the government" is the desire to act as a Terrorist, to intimidate and shoot the people you dislike, especially the brown and poor ones that cannot afford a lawyer.

I have brought up the infamous "second amendment remedies" comment often enough, but it bears repeating. Here is a reminder:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-floated-2nd_n_614003.html
http://www.csgv.org/storage/documents/the%20truth%20about%20second%20amendment%20remedies.pdf

Let's be honest, when Jared Loughtner shot Gabby Giffords, there were many that cheered: the only objection they had to liberals getting shot is that they would rather use a firing squad than a lone gunman. Had is a bad word, because you know they are still out there planning mischief.

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